Science-backed tools.
Spiritually-based wisdom.

Episode Show Notes

What if the dry, weary place you’re in isn’t something to escape—but a place where God is working?

So many of us know that quiet middle space: you’re not in crisis, but you’re not exactly flourishing either. You’re tired, spiritually dry, disconnected, or simply going through the motions. It’s not dramatic enough to call a breakdown, but something in you knows you’re weary.

In this episode, Dr. Alison and author/priest Tish Harrison Warren explore what grows in these weary places—and why seasons of spiritual dryness, burnout, and languishing aren’t signs that something is wrong with you.

They may be part of how God forms you.

Together, they talk about aridity, resilience, stability, and what it means to stay present to the life you actually have instead of constantly looking for a way out.

You’ll explore:

• Why spiritual dryness doesn’t mean you’re failing
• The difference between depression, burnout, and languishing
• What the desert fathers and mothers can teach us about resilience
• Why “staying in your cell” can become a path of formation
• How ordinary repair, routines, and relationships shape us over time
• What it means to let where you are do its work
• How hope changes the way we endure hard seasons

This conversation offers a counter-cultural invitation: you don’t have to rush out of the weary place. There may be something growing there.

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More Resources:

Order What Grows in Weary Lands - out this week!

You can preorder Dr. Alison’s newest book, The Secure Soul, and immediately receive the first 3 chapters as well as early access to the companion guide!

Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram

Curious what Family Role may have shaped you? Take the Family Role Quiz to learn how you may be showing up in your relationships with others.

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Want to hear more like this? Start here:

Episode 159: Spiritual Drowning, Honest Questions, and a God Who Doesn’t Let Go with Heather Thompson Day

Episode 176: Dr. Stephen Macchia on Intimacy with God in a Noisy World

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Don't forget to browse this week's sponsors, who make it possible for me to bring you these resources for free + provide you with additional discounts!

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*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

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Have you ever replayed a conversation over and over in your mind?

Maybe it was something your partner said. A text that felt off. A moment at work. A look on someone’s face. Suddenly your mind is looping, analyzing, judging, and trying to solve something that never seems to resolve.

Today’s conversation with science writer Donna Jackson Nakazawa is about rumination—what many of us experience as overthinking, thought spirals, or getting mentally stuck.

Donna brings together powerful neuroscience, personal story, and practical tools to help us understand why our minds loop, what those loops are trying to show us, and how we can begin to interrupt them with compassion and clarity.

We explore:

• Why rumination is not random—and what it reveals
• The difference between productive reflection and a mental loop that leaves you feeling worse
• Why social media can trigger rumination so quickly
• Donna’s MIST framework for stopping the spiral

This conversation is especially for you if you’ve ever thought, Why can’t I just let this go? or Why am I still thinking about this?

Get Donna's new book, Mind Drama ⁠here⁠

Connect with Donna ⁠here⁠

⁠Preorder my brand new book The Secure Soul⁠

‍

Want to hear more episodes like this? Start here:

⁠Episode 158⁠:  Your Pain Has a Name: The Deeper Hurt Behind Distressing Thoughts with Therapist Monica DiCristina

⁠Episode 51⁠: The 12 Common Thinking Traps, Mind Reading, Mental Filters, and How To Stop Taking Things Personally

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode⁠ here⁠

Connect further with ⁠@dralisoncook⁠ on Instagram

Join 80,000+ soul tenders in our email  community and receive weekly wisdom ⁠here⁠. 

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Don't forget to browse this week's sponsors, who make it possible for us to  bring you these resources for free + provide you with additional discounts!

• Quince - How you dress affects your mood and you can trust that Quince has you covered in every day sustainable wardrobe staples. Go to ⁠⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
• StoryWorth - Give your loved ones a unique keepsake you’ll all cherish for years—Storyworth Memoirs! Right now, save $10 or more during their Holiday sale when you go to StoryWorth.com/BESTOFYOU! 

*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

‍

TRANSCRIPT:

Am I replaying scenarios? Am I replaying them without a sense of finding a resolution?

Is my brain loading up the same reels over and over but without the benefit of cognitive or

emotional processing? or an action plan that offers a sense of release relief and how to move

forward according to all indicators we're ruminating more than we ever have before one third of us

have never heard the word rumination or we don't know what it means you cannot solve a problem that

you aren't being honest about that you haven't named so let's name it frame it and let's do that

interior work with a sense of tenderness for our own story, because that's where the wellspring of

well-being begins.

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of the Best of You podcast. I'm

Dr. Allison, and I have such an exciting announcement to share with you today. So over the...

Past few years, I've been working on a project on the side, really quietly. It's a book.

It's the most personal book I've ever written. It's my own journey through healing the parts of my

own soul. And it is finally finished. It's off to the printer. It's going to be printed any day

now. It's actually terrifying to me. If you've followed my work for a while, I...

to be a little bit more comfortable in the expert seat, right? And in kind of helping other people

understand themselves and in helping bring language to some of these concepts and theories and try

to make them practical for others. It's a lot harder for me to write about my own story,

write about my own experience. So I'm definitely experiencing a vulnerability hangover as we speak.

And so I'm so thrilled to share with you all today, my podcast listeners in this community, you're

the first to know if you're listening right now. I have a new book coming out. It's called The

Secure Soul, How to Find Inner Strength and Connection When Trust Doesn't Come Easy.

It's different in so many ways than my past books. It's more personal. It's more honest.

It's less scripted. It's just my own perspective on what I believe are the three most important

ingredients to healing, attachment, parts work, and spiritual formation.

And I bring these ideas together using my own story as illustration,

right? So I'm sharing with you insights into how I did this work to heal parts of my own soul,

even as I'm trying to help you and me together understand how attachment wounds,

how inner parts work, and how spiritual formation is essential for all of us to develop a secure

soul. This new book, The Secure Soul, it comes out August 18th, and I wanted to share it here first

with you, my podcast listeners. I also want to share with you just honestly,

behind the scenes, if you've ever followed an author you love, you... likely already know this, but

when you preorder a book, it makes a big difference. It really helps support the authors you like.

It's one of the main ways that publishers and distributors pay attention to kind of what's

signaling out there that this is a message people care about. So when you preorder a book,

it helps people hear about it. So if you're listening to this message today and you think you're

gonna read the book or it's a work that you wanna do, maybe you've read Boundaries for Your Soul or

one of my other books or you've engaged with this podcast and you think, I wanna go deeper in this

work. I wanna learn more about how this actually works in my day-to-day real life. I'd be so

grateful if you consider pre-ordering it now. When you do pre-order the book now, we put together

some really meaningful pre-order bonuses. For one thing, you'll get the first couple of chapters

of the book. There's also a companion guide. This is the first time I've ever done a workbook. So

there's an accompanying workbook that goes with the Secure Soul. You'll get a few chapters from

that. We've also put together some webinars and masterclasses and workshops.

For those of you who are interested in pre-ordering, you can get access to those when you pre

-order the books. So we want to make it worth your while. It's also my way. I've been wanting to

create more resources out of this work. It's again, the most powerful way I've seen to kind of

engage this work of inner healing and this intersection of healing and spiritual formation,

because this is a, when we bring God into this work, we are reshaping our souls in partnership with

God's spirit. So please head over to my website. You can find everything there. You can go to the

secure soul book. That's where you'll find all those bonuses. You can order the book anywhere books

are sold. I'm so thrilled to bring this to you. I'm grateful that you've been with me for these

past four years on the podcast. I'm grateful for the messages you send me about how this work has

helped you. I'm praying and hoping that this new offering will truly be not only a teaching tool

for you, but a... a companion for you on the journey, something that says, I'm not alone in this,

right? That was my heart with this book. And I'm so thrilled to finally be able to bring it to you

today.

Today's conversation is so good. I have been thinking about it all day and there's just so much.

practical insight and wisdom and helpful tools. I cannot wait to share it with you.

My guest is Donna Jackson Nakazawa. She's an award-winning science journalist,

and she's the author of several groundbreaking books at the intersection of neuroscience, the body,

and emotional healing. You might be familiar with her previous books, including Girls on the Brink

and Childhood Disrupted. She has spent her career translating cutting-edge brain science into

language that actually changes. how we live in our newest book. I have it right here. It's called

Mind Drama, The Science of Rumination and How to Outwit Your Inner Defeatist.

I cannot recommend it enough. Here's what drew me in. Donna opens by naming something that I think

most of us experience, but we don't always have the right words for, that spiral, right?

That loop that gets sticky, that place in our brain that just keeps going. It's the replaying of a

conversation you had three days ago. It's the middle of the night replay reel that just won't stop

no matter how hard you try. And she calls it rumination. And it turns out,

Most of us. are doing it without even really knowing there's a name for it and understanding how to

break that cycle. In today's conversation, Donna helps us understand that rumination isn't random

and it's not a flaw. It's actually a survival response that we have for a reason. It's been wired

into our nervous system. And she explains so beautifully how it's almost always rooted in our early

childhood wounds. These places in our stories where we maybe didn't feel seen or didn't feel like

we belong. or weren't sure if we mattered to the people who mattered to us, right?

These are the tender, unprocessed places from our past that tend to show up in these spirals.

Now, the spirals usually relate to different stories, but they're often linked. And how uncovering

that link can actually help us break free. And Donna actually walks me through this framework.

She calls it the mist. model in real time in today's episode. She helps me apply it to my own

ruminations. And it was really powerful. somewhere really specific and true and really helpful in a

matter of minutes. And it opened up something I hadn't quite fully been able to name for myself in

this same way before. I would encourage you to grab a journal for this one because you can do this

exercise right along with us. So if you're someone who lies awake at night running the same

scenarios on repeat, or you find yourself hijacked mid-afternoon by a worry spiral you can't shake

loose, or if you're just someone who thinks of yourself as an overthinker, this episode is for you.

And honestly, it's really for all of us. Please enjoy my conversation with Donna Jackson Nakazawa.

I want to open where you open, which is this idea that I think you say a third of Americans really

have maybe don't understand the word rumination, but absolutely are doing it and feeling it.

What do you... How do you define rumination and what do you, how do you understand it?

How do you experience it? Because you share also your own story in the book. Oh, sure. Right. I'm

not standing here in a glass house going, don't ruminate. I'm looking in the mirror and going,

what can we do to stop ruminating here? So really a very common vernacular way of thinking about

rumination is thought spiraling. You know, we are thought loops that are so sticky. We just can't

get out of them. We kind of know this isn't good. for us but we keep replaying the same

conversation or the interaction that we had maybe with our partner or teenager the night before or

a colleague or a parent a sibling you know fill in the blank and it can often in short form when

people are struggling like Is this rumination? We can ask ourselves, like, am I really judging

myself? Am I criticizing myself? Or am I caught in cycles of judging and criticizing others?

Am I replaying? scenarios? And am I replaying them without a sense of finding a resolution?

Like is my brain loading up the same reels over and over, but without the benefit of cognitive or

emotional processing or an action plan that offers a sense of release,

relief, and how to move forward. So technically,

in mental health circles rumination is worry about the past or projecting into the future so you

can use any of those but they're all a good way to frame the word rumination as you said one third

of us have never heard the word rumination or we don't know what it means so i'm kind of on a

mission to help us understand what it is And I have reasons for that,

which I'm sure we'll get into. And is it fair to say we all do it on some level?

It is because it's a survival response. It's built into the nuts and bolts of being alive.

It's part of our neural hardware. And it's a survival response gone wrong.

Think of it this way. Across evolutionary time. If you were sitting around the communal fire and

two or three people were elbowing each other, rolling their eyes or whatever people did a million

years ago to let you know that you were being dissed or dismissed or diminished in any way,

that was a dangerous proposition. Why? Because back across almost all of evolutionary time,

minus the past whatever hundred years, That was a sign that you and your offspring,

which we, our brains, our biological beings, we care a lot about our offspring, our gene pool,

we could be set at the edge of the tribe. And what does that mean? It means in a best case

scenario, you're not there for the good meat on the fire or you get the last little tuber that was

collected or buried. In a worse case, you're put so far outside of the realm of protection that

you're at risk of being picked off by marauding tribes or wildlife.

Wild animals, yep. Our immune systems are so sophisticated that across time,

our immune systems evolved with a sense of social threat. Social threat is clothed by the brain as

the most dangerous type of threat because it's really physical to us as beings.

And therefore, our immune systems, our stress chemicals, our stress hormones get really ramped up.

when we're ruminating because we're replaying social threat and that's a problem that's a problem

and rumination is is tied as the largest transdiagnostic factor to mental health so it's not just a

little thing that we're doing yeah it's a survival response gone rogue your brain just doesn't have

good mechanisms to stop and that's where my book comes in i'm trying to give people those yeah yeah

so if i'm and i'm hearing you correctly that it's most often we are ruminating about social threat

the threat of rejection the threat of isolation the threat of disconnection the threat of conflict

Loneliness. Not mattering. Yeah. Not belonging. The number one thing we ruminate about is whether

we matter to the people who matter to us. Yeah. In any aspect of our lives.

It could be in high school. I work a lot with high school girls. It could be.

That sense of your friend group. It could be a group chat. It could be the mom group. It could be

the neighborhood. It could be that thing your neighbor said over the fence. It could be,

again, anyone in your immediate or extended family. You're probably ruminating about one of them

right now. And I would guess social media could could trigger it.

Right. That's another era. It's a whole new thing we've introduced where suddenly, you know, I'll

notice that I'll be in a perfectly healthy. state mentally kind of thinking about the day in the

present. And then I'll see one thing and that spiral begins. It's just,

it's, you know, it's unbelievably quick and fast in that moment.

And it is. And, and that is one of the things that I work with parent and girl groups about,

especially girls, but also high schoolers and college age students. Because we see that social

media is turning on that fire hose of threat very quickly. Images do that much more quickly than

words. Videos do it more quickly than images. And most of us are using social media through video

imagery now, which means that we clock that sense of outrage or threat or loneliness or panic in a

much more visceral way. So you're absolutely right. I will add that according to all indicators,

we're ruminating more than we ever have before. And that is probably tied somewhat to social media,

to a pandemic just barely in the rearview mirror, to that just unending fire hose of rage and fear

and isolation from the news, from online life, from social media. from every corner that we turn to

is just amping it all up. So you're absolutely right. How,

in the book, you rely on your own mind as sort of your case study. One of them,

yes. One of them. What did you find that surprised you?

about your own patterns and tell us just a little bit about your own experience of realizing you

know it is to your point it's a helpful naming um and we'll get to what where there can be healthy

versions you know like i was mentioning there could be overthinking that can be healthy but but the

spiral the the negative spiral the rumination i bet you became very familiar with your own patterns

what did you notice Well, I noticed and I wrote very openly in the book that when I was very young,

my father died in a very freak overnight medical accident.

He went in for very minor surgery and he died due to a medical error.

And so it was the shock. that lives on forever. The reverberations will live on forever,

obviously. It's not something that you get up and shake off, you know,

as a kid of 12. And a lot of things changed in my family. Obviously,

my mom was widowed with four teenagers. I was the youngest and the only girl. My brothers were off

to the wind, girlfriends, colleges, what have you. And I really became my mom's emotional support

and just... everything that I could into protecting her,

taking care of her, worrying about her emotional needs. Was she okay?

Not okay. Coming out of her bedroom, not, you know, imagine being widowed overnight with four kids

and no way to support yourself. So my complete being went to that desire to care give.

as a child and make sandwiches for my brothers or whatever. So I never really processed any of that

until I began to report this book. And sure, I'd been to therapy.

I'd done all the right things. But as I was reporting this book, it really came about because one

day, and this is the opening of the book, you can read it for yourself. But I was coming out with

another book, not this book. And a researcher with whom I had shared the manuscript reached out to

me. I was at a doctor's appointment. And it was not the first time that something like this had

happened in my career where he told me he was going to borrow a bunch of it for a paper he was

writing. And he was doing me a favor because he was certainly more famous than me.

And it would come out under his name in a professional venue. And we would get it out there.

And he knew that I wanted that. And I had to leave the doctor's appointment.

I drove home. And I think most women could relate to this kind of a situation.

You know something has happened that shouldn't happen. You didn't have a voice for it. You weren't

able to speak up for yourself. And it's all trapped in your head and your body,

right? And so just talking about it, my heart still pounds a little bit.

I came home.

lawyer husband was here when I got home and he said, no, that's not okay.

You have to email your editor. I'm very close to my editor. We're very good friends. And she

immediately got the legal team on it and the whole thing disappeared. It disappeared. I didn't have

to solve it. They solved it, but it wouldn't stop replaying in my head.

And I kept saying to myself and my husband, It was three minutes of the worst phone conversation

I've ever had. But I'm not injured. Nothing happened. I can't get it out.

And that took me back to some of the patterns of voicelessness from my childhood and overdoing,

overgiving, and often in an atmosphere of male domination and male control in a big,

large... you know family so there were triggers that I had not attended to and we I'm sure can

break that down in the way in which naming the different images those movies the emotions and the

somatic sensations can help break our rumination and I have a an acronym for that writers love

acronyms called mist and i don't want to get into that now because it's based on the latest brain

science on where rumination is emanating from in our brain and how to work with that area of the

brain and we can get into that but i've already been talking for like three minutes no that i let's

get let's go there but i i just want to make sure i'm understanding you because this is there's so

much in what you're saying right as a as a I'm a therapist.

My listeners, this is why I wanted to have you on, right? We're always kind of trying to figure out

where are these triggers coming from. So I think what you're saying, let me make sure I'm hearing

you, that we ruminate for a reason, right? We're going to ruminate,

but what triggers a spiral is probably there for a reason and it's probably linked to some sort of

trauma or some sort of negative experience. from long ago. It's not unfamiliar.

It's not random. Is that, am I hearing you correctly? 100%. And to frame it through my lens,

we know that that area of the brain that gives rise to our ruminations for the nerds out there it's

called your default mode network and it's really three areas that we can work with discreetly to

unlock the brain from ruminations so we'll dive into that in a minute but first to address what

you're saying through my lens and the research that I did it's very clear that these patterns of

rumination in this area of the brain allison gets set up in response to events in childhood this

area of the brain is wired and fired in response to our early senses of mattering and belonging to

early caregivers and family members so rumination isn't random this is why it's almost always about

whether we belong or we matter to the people who matter to us but here's the tender thing beneath

all that mental noise Rumination is a signal fire from your past.

It is asking you to attend to those fearful, exiled,

angry, grieving, unseen, hurt parts of you that you have not fully attended to where emotional

processing still needs to happen. And so trauma is very much a theme through this book because

We've all had trauma. I wrote a whole book called Childhood Disrupted about the ubiquity of trauma

that we may not call trauma. Having parents who weren't present or having no one to really care

about you or think you were special or being put down or humiliated or critiqued all the time.

These are all classified by the CDC as types of childhood trauma. So our ruminations are...

encoded with information we each have a very distinct pattern of rumination we have things that can

happen to us in the world that will trigger this area of our brain to go into a kind of lockdown

that it's very difficult to get out of it's almost like an airport where airplanes are going around

on the tarmac in circles but they can't get out again Nothing flies in, nothing flies out,

and we have to be able to attend to those broken places and name them,

see them, and honor them for this area of the brain to let go again.

Gotcha. So part of, and I'm a big fan of naming, I'm going to use myself as a case study here for a

second. Good. That's okay. Yes. I think part of what you're saying is if we can find the underlying

pattern,

that's rooted in the past, it helps us access the path to release it.

So in my case, I often notice, and this is pretty new for me to notice this, but,

and this is kind of where social media comes in, especially in our polarized world. But in

childhood, I was shaped by attachment figures, all of whom I loved,

but who did not always know how to communicate with each other.

And they represented different, to use kind of your tribal, you know, different tribes, different

ideas, different ways of orienting to the world, whether religiously or spiritually or just the way

we are in the world. And I always found myself, where do I belong? I don't belong in any one group

because if I pick, I have to, and this is right in my own family,

right? I lose this person. Oh, my God. Right. So I don't want to pick this because then I lose this

person. So I have to figure out how to live coexist. So can you imagine? So that that is where

you're always under the threat of the possibility of loss of loss by any attachment.

And so it makes it nearly impossible for me to to this day.

I've had to figure out how. And so, again, I think there and this is where I want to get with you.

I've learned that there's as with anything. There's beauty in that because I've become something of

a translator, of a bridge builder. And also where I can spiral is I don't belong anywhere.

And if I choose this side, I lose this side. If I, you know, and, oh,

I don't belong in this side. That hurts. You know, it's always kind of comes back to that sense of

where do I belong? I'm just always sort of holding a lot of other people's belonging. Is that kind

of, but that's taken me a while to realize that's almost always where the. the spiral starts

because if you think about it allison underneath that fear of where do i belong is the fear of

where will i not Yes. Belonging. Where will I not matter?

Where will I be socially rejected or emotionally rejected? Yes. And again,

that is clocked by the brain as one of the most severe threats we can undergo as a human.

And it has a rapid escalation effect on your body's stress machinery.

So what you're feeling is real and getting in touch with that with real specificity.

language yeah by working with this part of the brain and what I've called the mist framework

because when we're lost in those places where we get triggered into thought spiraling rumination

self-judging other judging we're in a mist we actually can't see and what yes like on a

neurobiological level is that there are 267 areas of your brain that are super important to clear

clear thinking they're not lighting up They're not in use. They are offline.

All that's really working is this one closed circuit in your brain.

And you feel it, right? You feel it. It's like, whoa, I just keep going here.

I just keep going here. It's like Groundhog Day in your brain. And it feels terrible.

And you're actually not getting anywhere. You're not getting to any relief from the fear or the

wondering about the past or the future. So by using words,

and you like to use words, with incredible specificity,

we can actually decode our pattern of rumination in a way that...

it and puts it here in front of us maybe three feet away and that begins to make all the difference

that is the first step to emotional freedom because your brain starts to light up with awareness

other areas of your brain get engaged to go oh this isn't good I just spent the last hour making

dinner and I don't know if I added the salt to the stew or not I have no clue or I just drove here

I have no idea how I got here because I was loading the same reels over and over and over again so

we could try doing the MIST framework if you want sure okay I want it yeah that'd be great I love

it to

use your example We would start with the acronym is M-I-S-T for MIST.

And we're trying to clear the MIST by using the MIST framework. I love it. Okay, so M for you would

be using very specific words to create the sense of the story behind all the familiar reels that

you've seen a thousand times that your brain... loading up and where m is for mental imagery or

movie reels whatever works for you or montages it's that mental imagery the movies that replay a

little will come in from when you were five a little come in from yesterday and often it's like

Here's my old story or my familiar story of how people always dismiss me. Or here's my old familiar

story of how my voice doesn't matter. Here's my old familiar story of how people put me down.

I've interviewed so many people. They all come down to belonging and mattering. But what matters is

that you find your words for M, for your mental imagery, because the words that you say out loud,

that you name. Wow. Those are the words your brain will pay the most attention to.

Not the words I give you. Those words are not to be woo-woo. Those words are inside you and

they've been inside you for a really long time now. So if we were to do M, here's my old story of

how I don't belong. That would just be me spitballing, but you do it your way.

Yeah, it came as I was listening to you very clearly. They don't see me. Yes.

Yes. Okay. Let's start with that. Here's my old story of how they don't see me.

Let's move on to I. I is for the intensity of emotion, intense inner emotions.

Those could be, and they're very tied to our movie reels, right? Like you see the movie reel,

intense emotion gets going very, very quickly. It could be, which makes me feel afraid,

angry, scared, small.

So then we just go, here's my old story of how they don't see me, which makes me feel X and Y.

I mean, it's so interesting when you get specific. right? It actually makes me mad,

like angry. It makes me mad. It really does. I'm like, yes. Okay, Allison,

here's my old story of how they don't see me, how they don't see me,

which makes me feel. angry and mad and now we're going to do s for somatic sensations oh boy where

do you feel it in your body some people feel it like in the back of their head uh one person i

worked with just her headache like came on in eight seconds Some people, I feel it in my solar

plexus, like this anvil just landed on my chest. Heart might pound. Some people just,

their whole body contracts. So here's my old story of how they don't see me,

which makes me feel so mad and angry. And it makes my heart pound,

my solar plexus, whatever. Okay, so this is interesting. The minute I named it,

I felt more grounded in my body, which is interesting. But when it happens,

before I'm conscious of it, it feels like I, it's kind of what you were saying.

It's like I go down into a cave in my, it feels like kind of a cave in my brain. Like I just get

lost in a little kind of worrying energy in my brain, you know, like back here,

you know. Sure, yeah. Well, that's part of your default mode network, by the way. okay it's just

sort of like you know this buzzing sort of like worrying in in my head yeah so here's my old story

of how they don't see me which makes me angry and my head buzzes yeah so you can keep going there

and i want to say we all have multiple sentences we can say right yeah Different things are going

to emerge with different times. I had one person I worked with. She had one saying around her

husband, another around her daughter, and another around her mother. Like different things came up.

We can have multiple codes. But let me ask you this. So, so why don't you try saying the whole

thing in one sentence? Because that's where the magic is. Okay. So I want to ask you. And you can

change it. Okay. Because I want to, when you just said that, it made me realize, I think part of

what happens is, so I, they don't see me and that I feel mad.

And so there is a little bit of a, like, you know, when I say it, it's kind of in my, in my fists,

you know, in my, in my body. But I think it's actually a step after that. I go to either.

beating myself up typically. Yes. And that's what I feel in my,

it's like a loop opens up where I just start, why are you not bad? What's wrong with you,

Allison, that you haven't made them able to see you? Oh, I feel that viscerally.

Yes. Isn't this beautiful? So here's where you would be going with that. It's my fault. I'm

actually mad at myself. So here's my old story of how they don't see me. which makes me ashamed of

myself or feel like there's something wrong with me and my fists clenched.

Yeah. Like, try it again. Sorry, people, but this is important. Like,

you know, we all have to do this work. This is an important moment. So run it again.

Run it until... Yeah, and the listener, try to journal through this in your own experience. It's

powerful because I've never really been this granular about it. They don't see me. And that makes

me mad. I feel that in my fists. And then it's like I'm mad at myself.

Why can't I make them see me? So here we go.

And that is your code of rumination. And it's beautiful. And it's yours. And it's tied to your

whole story across your whole life. And probably your first caregivers who couldn't see the

position they were putting you in. Right? Yeah. Hey, Allison, you must choose.

Are you with us? Nope. Or are you with us? Grownups should be able to see the position they're

putting you in. And that had to make you really, as a child,

we code all of those situations as our fault. That's why when parents are getting divorced,

courts now order, you know, therapy for kids if there's some kind of custody battle.

Because From an early age until our brains are fully formed.

I've reported on this a lot. Kids cannot make that essential leap from there's something wrong with

me to there's something wrong with them. We cannot make that leap as children. And so we carry

things that are not ours to carry. And we carry them across a lifetime.

And what I found in doing my missed framework with people. is that they are able to drop things.

They are able to set down things that are not theirs to carry anymore. And it's the beginning of

the work. I don't want anyone to think that you do this and that's all you need to do and you won't

ruminate anymore. This is like a first step. It's the awareness that allows the other steps toward

real emotional freedom.

There's a lot in that. That's a really helpful, I think. I really appreciate your working through

it because I get what you're saying. Once you have that name for it,

you can look at it. What would you say to the listener who begins to connect those dots?

And you cover this in the book. Just as we're winding down here, Donna,

you know, how can you begin to, I love this phrase, repurpose? That energy.

Because it does feel like a lot of energy. It is a lot of wasted energy. It's a lot of dark,

wasted energy. Yeah, I love the idea of repurposing it, right? Yes. We all have things we would

rather be spending our precious mental energy on, right? We all want to be closer to that state of

flow, creativity, awareness, ideation. You have a podcast.

You see patients. You write books. you have a lot of ideation going on you want to be free and open

to that sort of importing or downloading of the good the good ideas or the next steps and not

walking around in this familiar story of rumination right so the first step is what we just did the

mist framework because what happens inside your brain is your brain kind of goes like oh you caught

me

Yeah. Steps back a little bit. Yeah. And it's happy because we want to be seen by ourselves.

Right. Like your story is about not being seen. You want to be seen by yourself.

So obviously we have to go way beyond that to do deeper work in terms of.

getting out of our ruminative habits so in the book really what I walk people through is then to

take that work somatically because what our brain is thinking oh I see that and what our body feels

they have to agree right our mind is a wonderful tool for escaping rumination but if we're still

somatically caught in the sensations of threat or social exclusion or feeling any of the D words

are a lot of diminished, dismissed, disregarded, disliked. Our body isn't coming along for the,

for the healing. Yeah. Yeah. And so I work, I walk people through a lot of very quick somatic

exercises that are based for working with the mental work that we're doing and for taking our

bodies out of that ruminative clutch as I think of it right we've got to get out of that ruminative

clutch we probably don't have time to run through them here but I do think they're pretty fun and

easy and all of them almost all of them are 60 seconds or less like you can literally excuse

yourself from a conversation go in the bathroom practice your missed framework and then do a 60

second silent exercise and come back and be like oh I see where I was here I see how I was getting

derailed and triggered in this conversation with difficult people toxic people but I'm going to

come back into it now with a refresh and and and I can't underscore this enough.

I didn't know this when I started reporting the book. You asked what surprised me. Yes.

What surprised me the most, Allison, is that this work allowed people to find their voice.

I did not know that that was going to be an outcome. But after a year of working with a lot of

people, that kept coming back over and over, that people were able to speak up.

by seeing themselves they were able to speak up to others in pretty wise and wonderful ways and

that was absolutely beautiful to witness wow and and it changed their families right one med

student changed his specialty he decided to go into a different specialty than what he had thought

he wanted One woman was able to voice herself with her husband. It was kind of like a gray-haired

teenager. And it made their marriage so much better that she had her voice and was able to speak

her truth.

From there, we can move into working more with language in our minds. We can give ourselves self

commands to get us out of rumination. Again, the language your brain generates is the language that

you're most likely to pay attention to. So we can literally come in after we've done some of this

work and just catch ourselves and be like, well, I'll give you an example. i was giving a lecture

and i am a little bit klutzy and that's okay i don't see that i'm not being self-critical here

it's just like that's how it is and i tripped on a wire going up to the to the stage right and i

caught myself i didn't go down but the ruminative me would have been like You're such a klutz.

And I would have carried that right to the podium. I would have been a little bit lost the first

couple of seconds of my talk. And I found myself going, it's okay,

Donna, you're human. Oh, this is how the work begins to show up for us.

I love that. And I go through a whole bunch of different statements that we can use in different

situations as self-commands. It's really great if you come up with your own. Yeah.

That you can load up, talk to yourself. It helps to talk to yourself in the third person.

Yeah. Use your own name. So you'd be like, Allison, that's okay. You're human or Allison.

Yeah. Because our brain associates a third person.

our own name with a sense of urgency in a way that using I does not.

Using I is associated more with anxiety and depression. Wow.

So those are some simple things right there. I love the moving into third person,

kind of speaking to yourself as if you're the moving, leaving the room and kind of,

I love, we'll link to all of the very practical.

somatic exercises, right? Because we don't always solve head problems with head. Sometimes our body

has to be part of the solution, right? Even just the movement. It's all in the book. It's just

like, just load it up with as many things as I found that can help you,

right? Like I was on a mission for myself, but also my reader. And some things,

here's a quick one. Lie on the floor. or go outside and lie on the grass,

our brain clocks the difference in perspective with a reboot.

It just gives you like literally two minutes out of rumination and if you can do the missed

framework. And you can do one or two somatic movements and you can lie on the floor.

You just gain 10 minutes of emotional freedom from which you can use all the other exercises to

reenter that state of creativity. I love that. Just simply changing, changing the scenery, changing

rooms. I mean, I will say I love also just want to what you said about voice,

because that makes sense to me. And I'm glad you. Because even like the example I gave, what I've

noticed is when I do notice that more and more, part of the shift internally more quickly,

to your point, I love that where there's just a quicker, you start to notice it's more easy for me

to go, do I want to be seen by that group? I actually love who I,

the folks, you know, and it just much more easily I can kind of let that release,

you know. And you're right, it's not. It's a whole embodied thing that just kind of happens slowly.

We talk a lot on the podcast about deeper formation, right? These are forming us.

And it's not often the quick fix hack. You know, it doesn't always happen. But there is this over

time you go. I love your example of just realizing I didn't in that moment. I just kind of released

it. And your brain somehow. learned a different way through the work that you're teaching us.

I love it. Donna, it's so helpful. It's kind of like a new language. You don't learn a new language

overnight. You don't just wake up and know how to speak, you know, Italian two days before your

trip. You have to build the brain. And I think if I could say anything about my hope for mind

drama, the book is,

I feel that I spent two years looking at every, I'm a neuroscience reporter,

looking at every single technique known to humankind for recognizing and exiting rumination and

coming up with the MIST framework, which is really just built on me putting together.

different pieces of very recent science and running them by neuroscientists because I'm not a

scientist. And I feel like I gave this everything in this book that I would want my kids to use as

an adult so that they're not ruminating. I love it. Because I don't want that for anyone that I

love. And I don't want it for the reader. I don't want it for anyone listening. It's a human

condition we don't talk about. And because we don't talk about it, we can't solve it.

You cannot solve a problem that you aren't being honest about, that you haven't named.

So let's name it, frame it, and let's do that interior work with a sense of tenderness for our own

story. Because that's where the wellspring of well-being begins, is that recognition within that

we're worth that time and effort. Yeah. And that energy, right? And repurposing that energy.

It's such a great book. It's called Mind Drama, The Science of Rumination and How to Outwit Your

Inner Defeatist. I love that. How can my listeners find you,

the book, your work, other things you're doing, Donna? Yeah. So DonnaJacksonNakazawa.com has all

of my books and it has information about how to buy Mind Drama. You can go to...

anywhere where you like to buy your books right it's on amazon it's at bookshop i love bookshop

because it's independent bookstores which we all love to use but walmart um target anywhere that

you go where you like to buy your books it's there it's it'll be on audible um well i guess it'll

be on audible by the time this comes out so they're taping it now so really pretty much anywhere

you can find it and You can find me on Substack at Donna Jackson Nakazawa,

where I'm giving exercises and ideas.

Instagram, I'm not super big on social media. I'll just tell you right now because I have reported

a lot on social media and I feel like I'm mostly protecting my brain. Good for you.

I'm not being on it very much. I do post a little bit, but all of those places. Wonderful.

Thank you. Thanks so much for your work. for sharing the benefit of your wisdom with us today.

Pleasure. Great to be with you, Allison.

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you

take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to or

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And be sure to join us each weekday for the best of you every day, a brief daily reflection to help

you start your mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become the best of who you

are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

‍

What if the reason you feel stuck… isn’t because something is wrong with you, but because different parts of you are pulling in different directions?

We all know that feeling—one part of you wants to follow through, while another part resists. And often, one side takes over… leaving you with regret or confusion afterward.

In this episode, Dr. Alison is joined by IFS therapist and best-selling author Jenna Riemersma to explore what’s really happening beneath that inner conflict and how to respond differently.

Because the goal isn’t to fight those parts of you.

It’s to understand them.

Together, they walk through Jenna’s simple, practical framework that helps you move toward yourself with curiosity and compassion instead of shame or control.

If you’ve ever felt stuck in cycles of overthinking, self-criticism, or reacting in ways you later regret… this conversation will help you understand why and what to do in the moment.

You’ll explore:

• Why the parts of you that frustrate you most may be trying to help
• What keeps you stuck in the same inner battles again and again
• The surprising shift that can calm the conflict inside
• How to know when to share what’s happening inside you—and when it’s wiser to protect yourself
• What real relief can look like when you stop fighting yourself

‍

This is a simple but powerful shift: You don’t have to control or silence parts of yourself to change.

‍

More Resources:

‍

Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram

‍

Want to go deeper with parts work? Join 80,000+ soul tenders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices on parts work here. 

‍

Connect with Jenna here.

‍

Get Jenna’s new book, Move Toward.

‍

Get her free Guided Meditations and Journaling Worksheets here. 

‍

Want to hear more like this? Start here:

Episode 160:  When You Feel Unwanted—Meeting the Parts of You That Long to Belong with IFS Therapist Tammy Sollenberger

Episode 108: Inside Out—Internal Family Systems, Therapy, and High-Performing Protectors with Jenna Riemersma

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here

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‍

TRANSCRIPT

‍

One part of me wants to eat all the Oreos and another part of me wants me to go to the gym and

‍

those two parts of me are at war with each other. What happens is one part of us will take over and

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we will react from that part of us and then afterwards we'll have regret or remorse.

‍

And it turns out that just like with a friend, when we listen to them and find out what they want

‍

us to know and find out if there's anything they need from us, they calm down and they feel

‍

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of The Best of You. I'm Dr.

‍

Allison, and I'm so excited about today's conversation. If you've been around this podcast for a

‍

while, you know that I talk a lot about the work of Understanding what's happening inside of us,

‍

the inner conflicts, the tension, the parts of ourselves that sometimes pull us in completely

‍

different directions. And if you read my book with Kimberly Miller. Boundaries for Your Soul.

‍

I know many of you have. I know that's a book that has brought many of you to this place. So you

‍

know that making this inner work practical and accessible is something I care a lot about.

‍

It's a big part of why I do what I do here on the podcast and in everything I do. So when I come

‍

across others who are doing a similar kind of work and doing it beautifully, I get really excited.

‍

And this is exactly what my guest today has done with her brand new book. My dear friend and fellow

‍

therapist, Jenna Reemserma, is back on the podcast today. And I have so been looking forward to

‍

this conversation. I can't wait to share it with you. If you've caught... previous episode,

‍

you know that she is just such a warm and grounded voice in this space. She has this gift of taking

‍

concepts that can feel really clinical or overwhelming and make them feel like something you can

‍

actually do. Today, in the grocery store line, in the middle of a hard conversation with your

‍

spouse, she meets us right where we are. Jenna is a licensed professional counselor. She's a

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certified IFS therapist. That's Internal Family Systems, which is the model that has deeply shaped

‍

both of our work. And she's also an IFS-approved clinical consultant. She's a certified sex

‍

addiction therapist supervisor, and she's trained in EMDR and somatic therapy. She's also teaching

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faculty for the International Institute. Trauma and Addictional Professionals. Jenna is just a

‍

wealth of wisdom and helpful resources and insights, as you'll hear today.

‍

And she's also a bestselling author. Her first book, All Together You, is an integration of IFS

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with Christian spirituality, and then All Together Us, which looks at how IFS connects with other

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therapeutic and community modalities. And today, we're going to talk about Jenna's brand new book.

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Toward, a simplified IFS therapy tool to welcome all parts of you. And I want to tell you,

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I work in this space. I read a lot of books in this space. And I read a lot of books on inner work,

‍

on parts work, as you can imagine. And this is one of the most accessible, most practical I've come

‍

across. Jenna has distilled the IFS model down to three simple steps that she'll walk us through

‍

today that you can actually remember and use in real time when you're activated,

‍

when you're triggered, when a part of you has taken over and you need something now in this moment,

‍

not next week in your therapist's office, but now. And what I love about this conversation is that

‍

we don't just stay in the theoretical. We get into how this work changes, the way you show up in

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your marriage, in your past. in those relationships where things feel stuck or painful or even

‍

unsafe. Jenna talks about what to do when the person across from you is safe.

‍

enough to be vulnerable with about what you're feeling, about what you're learning inside.

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And she also talks about what to do when they're not safe, right? When you actually need to protect

‍

yourself. And this is such an important distinction because I hear from so many of you who are

‍

navigating all kinds of relationships, right? Some that are safe and healthy and you just want

‍

better tools for communication, but others of you who are navigating relationships where it's not

‍

safe to be super vulnerable. right? And Jenna walks us through both. So whether you are brand new

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to this idea of having different parts of you in her parts work, or whether you've been doing this

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work for years, and you just want a simpler, quicker tool to reach for, or maybe to share with

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someone you love to let them know about this work that you've been doing, this episode has

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something for you. I am thrilled to bring you my conversation with Jenna Reemserma.

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Well, I'm so thrilled you're here. I love these chances to have you on the podcast. So thanks for

‍

being here. Thank you for having me. I love getting to be with you and to talk about these

‍

wonderful topics. I know. It's always such a treat to get to have people from my real life world on

‍

the podcast who are doing such great things. And so one of the things I love about what you do,

‍

Jenna, is you make this whole world of inner parts work so accessible.

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And this new book is one of the more accessible books I've read.

‍

So for my listeners, if you're new or even if you're just wanting to really understand what is

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actually happening inside of us as we connect to these parts of ourselves, this is such a great

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resource. So to start, I want to just kind of start at that very top level.

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When you're feeling conflicted inside, which is, I think, something a lot of us relate to.

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When I'm feeling pulled in different directions, I can't figure out, you know,

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kind of sometimes it feels like I'm spinning or I feel like I'm just stuck or overwhelmed, but, you

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know, just this inner tension. What is actually happening beneath the surface?

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I love this question because this is such a universal experience. I probably experienced this 10

‍

times a day where one part of me wants to eat all the Oreos and another part of me wants me to go

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to the gym. And those two parts of me are at war with each other. And it's very,

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very common and normal to have different parts of ourselves that have different perspectives,

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different goals for us that are at war with each other. Maybe we have a child who is in a baseball

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league and the coach is being really hard on them. And we think, gosh, there's a part of me that

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really wants to let that coach have it and tell him to get off my kids back. And another part of

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me, you know, wants me to not say anything and not create any waves and those two parts are really

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at war and very often what happens is one part of us will take over and we will react from that

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part of us and then afterwards we'll have regret or remorse so if we might you know the part of me

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The part of us that wants to let the coach have it might take over, and then later there might be

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regrets. Or the part of me that wants to eat all the cookies might take over, and later the part of

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me that wanted me to go to the gym is pretty mad about that. So this is a really normal experience.

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And rather than either letting those parts just take us over and run our lives and then having

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regrets later or trying to fight against them, which is really common.

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If we try to fight against the parts of ourselves or of others that we don't like,

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they tend to fight back. that which we resist as Carl Jung said persists.

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And so the harder we try not to eat all the Oreos, drink all the wine, buy all the shoes,

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the more we tend to do it in the long run. And so fighting against these parts of ourselves only

‍

makes our suffering worse. And it turns out that a really counterintuitive way of helping this

‍

inner battle is to do the opposite. to move toward these parts of ourselves with curiosity and

‍

compassion. I love it. So this frames kind of your unique approach,

‍

sort of your distillation of this internal family systems model that you and I both have been so

‍

shaped by. The name of the book is Move Toward. And so talk to us a little bit about what do you

‍

mean by move toward and move against? That's kind of what you were just describing. Go a little

‍

deeper into that. What are we, what does that look like in real life when you're in the middle of

‍

that, which is so relatable, right? You know, I'm locked in this and, and you're exactly right. I

‍

just, I just want to hate the part of me that wants to down the bag of cookies. That feels like the

‍

right thing to do, right? That's a bad part of me, you know, and just beat myself up for it, right?

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That feels like, you know, the righteous, you know, action. Why would I move toward that part of

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me?

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What we need to do in those moments, what does that look like? Yeah, well, when we move against or

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fight against a part of ourselves that's feeling or doing something that we don't like,

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it tends to, as we said, fight back. And I've really seen this a lot in my other area of clinical

‍

specialization, which is addiction. And when our approach to addiction work is to fight against or

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move against the part of our client that's engaged in the addictive behavior, what tends to happen

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is maybe they get sober for a period of time. And then that part tends to come roaring back.

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If that's the only thing we do is just fight against it, try to lock it in the basement. Just don't

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drink. Just stop it. Stop doing that. And it tends to take back over with ferocity.

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And that's why relapse rates are so high with addiction. One of many reasons,

‍

but I think that's a key one. And this really transformed my practice when I became trained in IFS

‍

and began to realize that actually fighting against these parts of our clients,

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it was exhausting. It wasn't really working. It wasn't successful. And it was actually making their

‍

suffering worse because the more we fight against ourselves, the more shame, the more regret,

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the more powerlessness we can feel. It's the sort of I'm only going to ever eat.

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lettuce leaves uh for for the rest of my life and that lasts for about three hours yeah and then

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the part that wants to eat all the oreos takes over again and then we feel more and more shame and

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more and more powerlessness and when we realize all these parts of us actually are much more

‍

effectively healed and transformed when we actually get in relationship with them,

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as C. Sykes would say, when we get in relationship rather than in control.

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That, which is really consistent, I think, with biblical themes in particular of being in

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relationship and that the relationship heals, that is transformational. And so moving toward these

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parts with curiosity and compassion to understand what their story is. How did they first start

‍

trying to help us in this way? That's not very helpful. How do they feel about having to do this

‍

job inside of us? Is there anything they'd rather be doing? And it turns out that these parts of us

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have their own unique stories, their own unique history of why they're doing the thing they're

‍

doing. And when we get curious and even compassionate about that. they soften,

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they take us over less and we gain access to that divine sort of our highest self inside of us,

‍

the God image inside of us or our highest self. And we can then lead and engage in our lives from

‍

that place rather than different parts of ourselves taking us over and driving the bus. I love it.

‍

You know, it's funny that the longer I've done this work, you do see such the parallels in

‍

parenting real life kids, right? And I love the example of addictions. And I'm thinking about, you

‍

know, when we lock in a power play with a child, it never works. It just escalates.

‍

It's exactly the same principle, right? And it's the same with the part of ourself.

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It just escalates the tension, escalates the stress versus when you hold steady,

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when you hold space, it deescalates. The the part of you or the child or the other person that is

‍

is upset or acting out. So I how do you we're going to get there for the listener.

‍

We're going to get to how we bring this into our real lives, because I think that's a really

‍

interesting part of this this book. But before we get there, how do you help someone,

‍

Jenna? I'm imagining someone listening who's like, I get this in concept. But in the moment,

‍

how do I really show compassion to myself when I'm behaving in a way I hate?

‍

What's the bridge? How do we bridge to compassion? There's a huge difference,

‍

and I love that you're highlighting this, between how do I show compassion to myself versus how do

‍

I show compassion to a part of me? that is feeling or doing this thing that I don't like.

‍

And amazingly, it's a very powerful tool just to recognize.

‍

And the three simple steps that I offer people in the Move Toward book are simply notice,

‍

know, and need. And we can walk through that in a moment. But that first step of just noticing,

‍

if we're triggered, if we're activated, if we're feeling a battle inside, noticing.

‍

wow, I'm noticing there's a part of me that's activated that wants to eat all the cookies.

‍

And I'm noticing there's another part of me that is pretty activated as well that has a lot of

‍

negative judgment about eating all the cookies. And suddenly I can realize that neither of these

‍

are who I am. These are parts of me at war. And that noticing allows them to kind of separate their

‍

energy from us or their emotions, their thoughts, separate out so that we can reconnect to that

‍

core, our highest self of who we truly are. And the curiosity sort of spontaneously emerges when we

‍

do that. But it's not easy. It's simple, but not easy. So in my book. because I know people get

‍

stuck on this a lot, I've included a little quick reference guide for the most common ways that

‍

this gets stuck for people. And so if you're trying to notice a part of you compassionately...

‍

really stuck, you can just reference that. And it tells you exactly what to do with illustrations

‍

and step-by-step guidance. And so maybe we have a dissociative part of us that has taken over.

‍

We're kind of checked out and we're trying to notice it, but there's nothing to notice. Well,

‍

that's one of the common. common challenges. And I talk you through how to notice that.

‍

And the way that we do that is to notice the not noticing, to notice the nothingness.

‍

And so just some simple things like that, that help us with these hard moments of noticing with

‍

curiosity. And it's also important to say that when we notice a part of us with curiosity,

‍

we can go back to the example of working with addiction. We're not saying that what that part of us

‍

is feeling or doing is okay. Yeah. Most of the time it's not.

‍

What we're saying is the most effective way to help it transform is to get in relationship.

‍

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I love that you made that distinction. We're not saying... And I think in our culture and I think

‍

sometimes in the TikTokification of therapy, you know, it can feel like I'm saying just notice and

‍

validate everything. It's not notice and validate. It's just, but you're so right. I love that you

‍

said that. It's almost noticing, oh, I'm checked out right now. And it just opens the door to

‍

awareness and in a powerful way, just being able to notice something.

‍

I love that you start there. What's the second one, Jenna? The second step, once we've been able to

‍

recognize this isn't all of me, this is just a part of me, and we feel a little bit of curiosity or

‍

compassion toward it, then the second step is no, K-N-O-W. And from our higher self,

‍

we just... kind of get curious with this part of ourself and just kind of internally check in,

‍

what do you want me to know? Part of me that wants me to eat all the cookies, what do you want me

‍

to know about you? And it's not weird. We're not hearing voices or, you know,

‍

talking to ourselves, but we're just simply offering a question as we would if we were getting to

‍

know anyone. Hey, Allison, what would you like me to know about you? I'm not going to ask you that

‍

question and then say, you know, I think what you want me to know is that you're an amazing

‍

podcaster, an incredible bestselling author, phenomenal therapist.

‍

I would not do that. You'd be like, excuse me, you, you, you happen to be right, but you asked me a

‍

question. Let me answer. And that's really what we're doing. We're getting to know this part of

‍

ourselves. So we just kind of ask like. cookie eating part of me, what do you want me to know? And

‍

just sort of wait. And what we'll notice is some images or thoughts or just a general awareness

‍

will usually begin to emerge. So we might suddenly get an awareness. Oh,

‍

wow, I was needing some soothing. There was a lot of stress in my life just now.

‍

And this cookie eating part of me is taking over trying to provide a little bit of soothing,

‍

a little bit of comfort for me. And we can just kind of start to get a little bit of information

‍

about these parts of ourselves that really expands our compassion for them because we begin to hear

‍

and know how they're trying to help. So that's step two is really,

‍

really witnessing these parts, really getting in a conversation with them in a sense,

‍

hearing what they want us to know about themselves. I love that because when you use the

‍

illustration of a map, like even with me,

‍

And just to pause on that power of that question, what do you want me to know about you?

‍

When you just said that kind of as I was like, oh, what do I want her to know about me?

‍

Tap something really deep inside and you're giving yourself that gift.

‍

What do you want me to know? And not imposing it. And I just love how you linger there.

‍

and again it leads to this deeper self-knowledge because we have all these ideas about ourselves

‍

right we have all these ideas about why we're eating the cookies and usually they're negative

‍

because i'm not disciplined because i'm you know i can tell you know i get through all of mine you

‍

know like all of my inner critical but it's like when you really just like you would with a friend

‍

what what do you what do you want me to know because it's always a younger part you know And I love

‍

that. It's just like how you would ask a friend that. Give yourself that same kindness. Exactly.

‍

We want to befriend these different parts of ourselves rather than fight them. That's really key is

‍

transformation doesn't happen through battle and battling ourselves.

‍

It happens through connection, care, and relationship. And no matter how negative the behavior that

‍

the part of us is engaged in, when we begin to understand how it's trying to help us,

‍

not saying what it's doing is good. A lot of times it's not, but it is usually trying to help in

‍

some way or carrying some longstanding pain. And when we get to know the story of this part of

‍

ourselves, all of a sudden we see how exhausted these parts of us are, how long they've been stuck

‍

in these roles. The cookie eating part of me has been stuck in that role since I was being pretty

‍

significantly bullied in high school. And every night, every day after school on the drive home,

‍

I would drive past a little treat store. And if I stopped after making it through the entire day of

‍

really intense social situations on the way home, I could stop and get a little something sweet.

‍

And that part of me. learned in those moments gosh that worked for a hot minute when there was

‍

nothing else that felt sweet in my life and no one else showing up in a sweet way for me and this

‍

part of me took on that job and it turns out it's exhausted it doesn't actually like doing this

‍

because it only works for 10 seconds and then it feels worse that is so powerful That is just such

‍

a powerful connection to the past, right? They're there for a reason. So this leads us to the third

‍

N, which is need. Correct. So what does this part of you now need?

‍

Yes, this is a really, really powerful question because when parts of us take over and act out in

‍

certain ways, so the cookie eating part of me takes over and makes me eat all the cookies. Well,

‍

the cookies are not the need of this part. What this part needs is comfort.

‍

And so once I hear this part's story, and so I've noticed it, I've asked this cookie eating part,

‍

what do you want me to know? And then I ask this part, what do you need from me?

‍

That is my highest self, not my spouse or my parents or my next door neighbor or the boss,

‍

but what do you cookie eater? need from me to feel a little less activated,

‍

a little more comforted. And again, we ask and we wait and we make it a sense.

‍

We make it a sense of exactly what the part needs. And the need is usually something very

‍

important. For example, the cookie eating part of me, when I asked that question,

‍

what it needed was for me to deal with the overworking part of me. that was creating so much stress

‍

in my life and as all of this overworking was creating lots of stress the cookie eating part would

‍

get activated and jump in to try to create some relief and so it really helped me to gain insight

‍

that the cookie eating would slow down if I could also do notice no need with the part of me that

‍

was overworking these these parts of us are actually interacting in a system C.

‍

Sykes, a wonderful IFS trainer, she says it's a system, not a symptom.

‍

And I think that's really important. We often treat things like they're symptoms and we fight

‍

against them. And that makes our suffering worse. When we recognize this feeling or behavior is a

‍

part of a system. And we can move toward all parts of the system with curiosity and compassion.

‍

It helps everything to calm and settle back and ultimately lays the foundation for their

‍

transformation. Wow, I love that. And those needs, again, just to underscore and highlight,

‍

I think often we impose what we think the part needs. And again,

‍

that's like, and we've all had this happen to us when a friend's like, what you need is, and you're

‍

like, well, I mean, even if it's true, that doesn't feel that great. You know, like what you need

‍

is to like, just speak up for yourself. And it's like, well, yeah, I probably do. But like, and

‍

it's kind of what we do to ourselves. And there's this, it's such a difference. I love how you're

‍

saying that, like to wait for a minute and notice what comes up because it's often surprising to

‍

your point. Right. It's like, well, actually, I, you know, I need a little more space from all this

‍

overworking or whatever. And I'm always surprised by what the need is.

‍

And I love that. That's that's a really lovely, just simple way to kind of just listen just as you

‍

would, again, to a friend. Exactly. And it turns out that just like with a friend,

‍

when we listen to them and find out what they want us to know and find out.

‍

if there's anything they need from us, they calm down and they feel cared for and they feel seen

‍

and less likely to become really activated. And the same is true in our inner relationships with

‍

these parts of ourselves. It's very counterintuitive, but very powerful.

‍

And it is the reason I tried to make this very simple, very clear,

‍

very easy to remember is because Like you, I'm an IFS trained certified therapist.

‍

I do this for a living. I know the IFS model cold, the internal family systems approach.

‍

But when I'm out in the grocery store and all of a sudden I'm triggered, I can't pick up the phone

‍

and call my therapist and do the entire model, even though this is what I do for a living. I need

‍

something quick, something easy to remember, something accessible so that in that moment when we're

‍

triggered. And an enraged part of us has taken us over or a dissociative part or a part that wants

‍

to eat all the cookies or drink all the wine. I can immediately go, oh, notice no need.

‍

I can do that. And I can help that part calm down, get a little clarity,

‍

understanding of why it got triggered, how it's trying to help and what it actually needs so that I

‍

can have more leadership of these inner battles that rage.

‍

This is so good. Okay. So I love the image of being in the grocery store lane and how we're doing

‍

this in real time. So in the book, you also spend some time talking about how this inner work

‍

begins to change how we show up in our relationships, in our life, in our world, at our church, in

‍

our marriages, in our culture, right? The whole world around us. And I think that's powerful

‍

because the work doesn't just end inside of us. What are some examples of how you've seen this

‍

inner work change how you showed up in a relationship?

‍

And hypothetically speaking, I might know a friend who used this a lot in their marriage that was

‍

incredibly transformational. This is strictly hypothetical. I can't relate to this whatsoever. But

‍

a friend of mine said that when they would get into conflict.

‍

I'll just out myself. It's me. Thank you. Hello. When I get, I've been married 30 years.

‍

So, you know, when you've been in a relationship with someone for a long time, your parts know

‍

their parts. Like when my husband shows up with an angry part, I get a appeasing part.

‍

And our parts have relationships with each other. And that didn't used to go so well. When we are

‍

reacting out of different parts of ourselves that take us over and try to run the show,

‍

it doesn't. end well. And we wind up further away from our goals and not closer to them.

‍

So what we do is first, we always do move toward, we always notice what is coming up in me.

‍

Oh, I'm noticing a part that wants to appease, a part that's pretty mad, a part that feels

‍

vulnerable, and a part that just wants to pretend there's nothing wrong so we can get past this.

‍

Okay. So we notice, know, and need with all of our own parts. Then if we're in a largely a

‍

goodwilled, you know, generally positive relationship where the other person,

‍

you know, has connection to us and can offer some degree of listening,

‍

we can say, whew, can I just, I just need to take a minute. I'm noticing that there's a part of me

‍

when I sense this energy in the room between us that wants to take me over,

‍

that wants to pretend like everything's fine. There's another part of me that just wants to do

‍

whatever you want me to do so that this conflict will go away. There's another part of me that's

‍

pretty mad that doesn't like that it's I'm always in the power down position and you're in the

‍

power up position when you get mad. And there's a part of me that feels really actually vulnerable

‍

that your anger could hurt me. And that feels really scary to this vulnerable part of me.

‍

So that's what I'm noticing in me. What's coming up in you? And that's a very different approach

‍

than all these parts taking us over and we're reacting out of them.

‍

And it's called speaking for our parts. rather than from them. And it's pretty transformational

‍

when we are in a largely goodwilled, generally safe and healthy relationship situation.

‍

That, of course, is not every situation. And I speak to other ones in the book, but this can be a

‍

game changer in our marriages and our parenting in so many different things.

‍

And you can just feel the difference when you're speaking from that place versus yelling at the

‍

person or escalating. Jenna, I'm thinking of the listener.

‍

What do you suggest for folks who are listening, who are maybe doing this work or have some

‍

understanding of that, but they are in that sort of toxic situation, whether it's a marriage,

‍

whether it's a friend, whether it's a community, where it wouldn't be safe? to be that transparent.

‍

How do you coach people like that how do you walk people like that in the book this is really

‍

important because many relationships don't have that essential goodwill safe container and it

‍

actually would not be wise when we're in a situation where there's toxic energy or boundary

‍

violating or any type of danger in any way to sort of be that transparent and represent all these

‍

different parts of ourselves it does open up a certain degree of um of intimacy that isn't wise to

‍

offer to everyone. So an example that I see frequently clinically is working with betrayal trauma,

‍

where a client may come in and their partner, their spouse has been compulsively using pornography

‍

or acting out sexually in some way. They are suffering from Betrayal trauma.

‍

Maybe they've just had a discovery or, you know, they're kind of trying to figure out what do I do?

‍

And let's say they've confronted their partner and the partner is non-repentant.

‍

They're not interested in working on it. They're gaslighting, blame shifting. Well,

‍

if you were more sexual, I wouldn't have to look at pornography or, oh, don't worry about it.

‍

All people do this or in whatever way, they're not really taking any ownership. They're deflecting,

‍

blaming and refusing. to take responsibility or accountability.

‍

And let's say that's been going on repetitively. Maybe there's been lies told, which is very common

‍

in that work where the first discovery happens. I promise, I promise I'll never do it again.

‍

Then the next discovery, then the next discovery. And so there's this chronicity of betrayal trauma

‍

and the layers. So clients will often come in and say, what kind of boundaries do I need to have?

‍

And this is key because in a situation where you no longer have the safety and genuine goodwill of

‍

the container of the relationship because the person on the other side of the relationship, while

‍

they may love you and you may love them, they're repeatedly lying,

‍

blaming, and engaged in betraying behaviors. then what often happens with betrayed partners is they

‍

react out of one part of themselves. So when they're in the therapy room, they'll say,

‍

or when they're in the heat of a conflict with their partner, if you ever look at pornography

‍

again, I'm leaving you.

‍

Invariably, the person looks at pornography again. And another part of the betrayed partner shows

‍

up. and actually is terrified of losing the relationship. And that part of the betrayed partner may

‍

actually even want to go be more sexual with the betraying partner in an attempt to not lose that

‍

attachment relationship. And so we've got, it's very common to have many different parts at war and

‍

people are often very challenged. Like, why can't I hold boundaries? This is a situation where I

‍

would say, Probably not the best thing to freely speak for your parts to your partner because

‍

they're not able to safely be present for that. But you want to take a personal internal inventory.

‍

You want to get internal consent from all parts of you and hear from the angry part that says,

‍

if you ever, I'm gonna. And the part that says, but. I can't make enough money to support myself

‍

and the children. What about the holidays? We got to listen to all the parts of ourselves that have

‍

opinions around this. And then from that place of our highest self, as the leader of this group of

‍

inner parts, we can make the wisest possible choice in the moment. That isn't perfect,

‍

but it will be a boundary that we can state. with clarity and courage and follow through on.

‍

And this would be an example where there isn't that genuine safety and goodwill.

‍

And it might not be wise to speak for our parts, but it's very critical to listen to them and then

‍

take our next step in the boundary from a place of that highest self leadership.

‍

I love that. I think that's so wise. I want the listener to really hear that because often I will

‍

hear from people, I'm sure you do too, sort of a self-criticism or an anger that they can't take

‍

the action they feel like, a part of them feels like they should take. And what you're saying is so

‍

important. It's that inner consent, inner witnessing of all the different layers.

‍

There's a reason oftentimes people don't leave a marriage, don't leave a church, don't leave a

‍

relationship, don't leave a... Because there's a lot at stake.

‍

There's sometimes a high cost. And so I love what you're saying.

‍

It may not at that point yet be about telling the other person all those different feelings,

‍

but it is really honoring all of it within because that process will inevitably allow you when it's

‍

finally time to take action, to do it with your whole self. which means it will be more

‍

sustainable, more resilient, more, I love that. That's a really powerful, powerful way to,

‍

it may take, you know, I know Kim and I said in Boundaries for Your Soul, and it always has stuck

‍

with me. It's a slower way to where you want to get faster, right?

‍

It's slower, but you actually get to where you want to be. Exactly.

‍

Yeah, exactly. And when we throw out threats, or attempts to control someone else's behavior from a

‍

part of ourselves rather than a true boundary, which is about managing our own choices,

‍

our own behavior, not someone else. Then we don't wind up disempowering ourselves because when we

‍

throw out a threat that we're not going to follow through on. We disempower ourselves.

‍

We actually train the other person to ignore our words even more. This is true in parenting.

‍

This is true in betraying relationships. When we throw out a threat, if you don't do your homework,

‍

you're grounded for the next year. And that's not what all parts of us are in consent with,

‍

nor is it. necessarily a wise choice. We are disempowering ourselves because then when we don't

‍

follow through, the person on the other end says, well, I don't have to listen to what my mom is

‍

saying, my dad is saying, they're not going to follow through. They're just throwing out threats.

‍

And we wind up being a much less effective parent, a much less effective self-advocate,

‍

a much more dysregulated. individual in our interpersonal relationships.

‍

So this skill turns out to be fairly transformational. Wow,

‍

that's, that's such a helpful, hopeful view.

‍

What if you are in a relationship with, again, we're back to this fairly healthy,

‍

good, you know, enough safety, good enough safety? But the language of parts hasn't either

‍

connected with that other person. So it's been super helpful to us. But that that.

‍

It's almost like we're speaking a different language. How do you encourage people in those

‍

situations where the language maybe is a little bit of a barrier? I love this question because this

‍

comes up a lot. I think it's very important. And it's part of the reason that I specifically wrote

‍

this book to be very accessible. I wrote the book very casually. So it's like I'm sitting down with

‍

the reader having a cup of coffee talking about these things. And there's... examples that will

‍

walk you through how to do this. I've got scripts, I've got journaling or group discussion

‍

questions after every chapter so that there is a really, there's a little bit of this is what it

‍

looks like and then here's how you do it, let's practice. And I think that's so important because

‍

this issue of the language of parts comes up often when people don't like that language.

‍

Sometimes some people really resonate with it. Some people really don't prefer it. And some people

‍

think it's pathologizing. Like, are you saying I have what used to be called multiple personality

‍

disorder? No, not at all. This is normal. We all have lots of different parts of ourselves.

‍

It's just normal. So what I say to encourage someone in that situation is it doesn't matter what

‍

language we use to describe this inner experience. We can. Call it anything we want.

‍

So I say, let's use the language that feels most comfortable. So we might say something like, let's

‍

say we love inner parts work, but our partner is really triggered by the word parts. Then we can

‍

say, okay, can I take a moment? I'm noticing there's an energy in me that feels really enraged

‍

that's trying to help protect me from this conflict. I'm noticing there's another energy in me that

‍

wants to sort of caretake. And there's another energy in me that feels really vulnerable right now.

‍

We don't have to use the word parts. It doesn't really matter what we call it. We're reflecting our

‍

inner experience in a way that can be heard and received. That's great. That's great, Jenna.

‍

I love that. I was having a conversation with, I don't know if you're familiar with John Acuff. He

‍

does a lot of coaching. He has a book called Soundtracks. And I had a conversation with him a few

‍

weeks ago. And he was saying, we were kind of talking about that. And he was saying a lot of the

‍

men he works with really, would never respond to this idea of an inner voice.

‍

But when you talk about a soundtrack that plays, they're right there with them. And I was like,

‍

that's interesting. It's okay. We don't have to be literal about the language in our real life.

‍

Just find something that works, that's a shared language for both of you to name these inner states

‍

that we all have. I think that's really helpful. That's a really helpful naming.

‍

Yeah, I really love that because that was sort of the heartbeat behind my very first book years

‍

ago, Altogether You, that integrated IFS with Christian spirituality.

‍

And there was a lot of challenge for people of faith to connect with parts because there was a lot

‍

of translation that needed to be done. For example, that our highest self or, you know,

‍

that essence that IFS would call self with a capital S. Most people of faith have a very visceral

‍

response to that that's quite negative. That word self often connotes sinfulness.

‍

So it's like the opposite of what IFS is calling it. And just helping people to make a translation,

‍

well, actually, that's just the image of God inside of you. Don't use the word self, use image of

‍

God. Like if we're talking about the same thing, we could call it concentrated awesomeness. It

‍

doesn't matter. Whatever works for you to understand the essence of what we're describing,

‍

then let's use that. I love that. Just as we're winding down here,

‍

for someone listening who's newer to this work, but wants to take a step forward,

‍

what would you say is, just even today, what's the first small step someone could take to begin to

‍

do this work today.

‍

I love that. So that's the whole last chapter is like, what are my next steps for how to apply this

‍

in my life? So I think this is so important because sometimes it can be conceptually a great idea.

‍

And then if we don't know kind of how to implement it, it can just be an interesting idea. And I

‍

think that the first step, which seems simple and it is, but it's not at all easy, is beginning to

‍

practice the art of noticing, which is step one.

‍

noticing when a part of ourselves has gotten activated and taking us over. And that can be

‍

challenging because we often are taught to think of ourselves as just one thing. So if an angry

‍

part of us gets triggered and takes us over, what we tend to think is I am so angry. or if an

‍

anxious part of us has gotten activated and we're feeling its anxiety, we'll think,

‍

I am so anxious. And so this art of just step one, of just noticing,

‍

ah, an anxious part of me is here. ah, I'm noticing an angry part of me is here.

‍

Even just that can be pretty transformational because all of a sudden, just with that awareness,

‍

just with that gentle noticing, we get a little bit of separation between the energy of that part

‍

of us, whether it's anger, anxiety, whatever it might be, and ourselves. And we begin to realize

‍

how multifaceted. how beautifully multifaceted we are inside and that is a powerful first step so i

‍

would say even just beginning to practice notice notice notice and also noticing what is it like

‍

when we are not taken over by parts noticing that calm that clear-mindedness,

‍

those moments of clarity, of courage, of compassion, when parts haven't taken us over.

‍

Because that's a different place, that connection to the image of God or the highest self inside of

‍

us. And noticing that can be really valuable as well. Like, oh, that's actually in me.

‍

Because sometimes we think, oh, I've done so many bad things or so many awful things have happened

‍

to me. I don't actually have that inside of me. That's a common thought. There's no image of God

‍

inside of me. There's no highest self. I've done too many horrible things or I've endured so much

‍

trauma in my life. There's nothing good inside of me. And so noticing when we're not overtaken by

‍

parts and that actually there is. this beautiful essence inside of each and every one of us,

‍

that's very powerful as well. I love that. I love that. Jenna, you're just such a wonderful light

‍

of... such clarity and the way you distill this, what can feel overwhelming into such simple,

‍

usable skills. It's just so wonderful. I'm so grateful for all of your work. You've written a

‍

number of wonderful books. We'll link to all of your past appearances on the podcast because I know

‍

those have been among my listener favorites. But tell us where they can find this current book and

‍

how to get in, what all that you've got going on now. Oh,

‍

thank you. Well, this new book is just released at the time of our recording, and it's available on

‍

Amazon, Kindle, audiobook. I had a fun time recording it in the studio. If you'd like me to read it

‍

to you and you're an audiobook person, enjoy that wherever books are sold.

‍

And I have lots and lots of free resources that I offer to people because I know this can be a very

‍

different approach and people need some help and guidance. So if you come to my website,

‍

which is JennaRiemersma.com, but if you're like... 99% of the people and you can't spell

‍

Remersma. Not a problem. Some days I can't spell my last name, but if you also come to movetoward

‍

.com, it'll get you to the same place. And I've got free downloadable journaling worksheets.

‍

I've got free videos where I actually guide you through this process for a variety of things.

‍

So I've got move toward for anxiety, move toward for addiction, move toward for betrayal trauma,

‍

move toward to just check in with your parts, move toward for triggers, all kinds of things. So

‍

lots of free resources there as well as on the Insight Timer app.

‍

So please feel free to take advantage of this. So they go to Jenna Remersma on Insight Timer.

‍

Is that how they find you? Correct. And I've got a whole ton of free audio guides there that are

‍

moved toward guides. And I even have one now that's a video. InSight Timer has just released videos

‍

that teach us speaking for our parts rather than from them. So lots of ways that you can connect

‍

with this if it interests you and you want to try it out. Please take advantage of all of those

‍

free resources and try it out and see what you think. because it's really been life-changing for

‍

me. And I'm so grateful to get to share this important and I think just really simple tool with

‍

people. Well, Jenna, I cannot recommend your work, what you offer enough.

‍

You are a trusted voice in this space and we are so grateful for your time and for what you're

‍

putting into the world. Thank you for all the resources and just the gift of your wisdom. We're

‍

really grateful. Thank you so much for having me back on the podcast. I always love being with you.

‍

And I'm so grateful to have this conversation with your listeners. Thanks.

‍

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you

‍

take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to or

‍

watch podcasts and click the plus or follow button. That'll ensure you don't miss an episode and it

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helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you leave a five-star review.

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And be sure to join us each weekday for the best of you every day, a brief daily reflection to help

‍

you start your mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become the best of who you

‍

are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

‍

Episode Show Notes

When a diagnosis, chronic illness, or unexpected health challenge enters your life, it can divide your story into a before and after. And often, we don’t have language for what’s happening beneath the surface.

In this episode, Dr. Alison and Dr. James C. Jackson explore the concept of medical trauma—and how it impacts not just your body, but your identity, your relationships, and your sense of meaning.

Because medical trauma isn’t just about what happened to you physically.

It’s about what it begins to reshape internally—your sense of safety, control, and who you are.

If you’ve ever felt disoriented, overwhelmed, or like life doesn’t fit the way it used to… this conversation will help you understand why and what healing can look like.

You’ll explore:

• What medical trauma is and why it’s often overlooked
• The psychological impact of diagnosis, chronic illness, and navigating healthcare
• How suffering can reshape your identity—and how to gently reframe it
• The role of community in healing and why support matters
• What it means to live in the “both/and” of grief and hope

This conversation offers a compassionate path forward—helping you learn how to live with what’s hard without letting it define all of who you are.

‍

More Resources:

‍

Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram

‍

Want to go deeper? Join 80,000+ soul menders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices on parts work here. 

Want to hear more like this? Start here:

Episode 64: Women’s Health—Menopause, Hormones, Depression and How to Advocate for Yourself Through Your Body’s Changes

Episode 19: My Stroke, A Process of Healing, and How I Began to Write The Best of You

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here

Don't forget to browse this week's sponsors, who make it possible for me to bring you these resources for free + provide you with additional discounts!

• Quince - How you dress affects your mood and you can trust that Quince has you covered in every day sustainable wardrobe staples. Go to ⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
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*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

‍

TRANSCRIPT

When people are properly supported When they are steeped in resilience, when they can find a

‍

purpose, they can endure hugely difficult things and they can come out on the other side,

‍

not only surviving, even thriving. We don't get to decide for somebody else what is traumatic.

‍

In the medical arena, those can develop in everything from getting a difficult diagnosis to being

‍

in the ICU to struggling with a chronic illness to other things. I wanted to affirm people and give

‍

a name to what they were feeling and then... for many is medical trauma.

‍

Hey everyone and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of the Best of You podcast. I'm so

‍

glad you're here with me this week for this conversation. Today's episode is for you if you've ever

‍

found yourself facing something you didn't choose, something that changed your life in ways you

‍

didn't expect. It might have been a diagnosis or a long season of unexplained symptoms,

‍

or it might be walking alongside someone you love through illness or recovery.

‍

Whatever it is, there's this moment where the life you had before and the life you have after no

‍

longer feels the same, and it rocks your world. a little bit. It's disorienting. It's confusing.

‍

It's uncertain. We don't always have language for what happens to us psychologically and

‍

emotionally in those moments. We call it stressful, or we call it anxiety,

‍

or sometimes we just try to minimize it or shove it away. But often, the right kind of name for it

‍

is actually trauma. It's something we don't always have the skills to process in the moment.

‍

And I've had moments like these personally, moments where something medical entered into my life

‍

out of the blue, out of nowhere with no explanation. And suddenly there was a before and an after

‍

the event. And this is exactly what today's guest, Dr. James C. Jackson,

‍

is gonna share with us all about today. It's his area of expertise. He calls it medical trauma

‍

because so often when we're dealing with a health issue, whether it's chronic symptoms or something

‍

major that enters in unexpectedly, it creates not only a trauma in the body, it often creates a

‍

trauma in the soul. That phrase alone, medical trauma, was so powerful to me when I first heard it

‍

because it names something so many of us experience but don't always recognize at first. It's not

‍

only going through the illness, it's navigating the medical system, the healthcare system, or even

‍

receiving a minor diagnosis that changes our daily habits that shapes us emotionally,

‍

psychologically. And yet so often we're expected to get through it, to stay positive,

‍

to be resilient, to get back to normal, or to only focus on the physical aspect of healing,

‍

as important as it is. But I want to talk today with our guest about how to move through painful

‍

changes to our health or to the health of loved ones with intention and kindness.

‍

and gentleness, and to ultimately learn how to live with what's hard without letting it define

‍

everything about us. And this is where we're going today. I'm joined today by Dr.

‍

James Jackson. He's a clinical psychologist and researcher, and he serves as the director of long

‍

-term outcomes at Vanderbilt University Medical Center. He focuses on helping patients recover,

‍

not just physically, but emotionally and psychologically from critical illness, ICU stays,

‍

and chronic conditions. He's worked extensively with veterans, with ICU survivors, and all kinds of

‍

individuals like you and me navigating these complicated medical challenges.

‍

What I appreciate so much about Dr. Jackson's work is that he brings together this deep clinical

‍

expertise with a profound respect for the reality of human suffering. He's not here to offer us

‍

quick fixes or to minimize pain or to rush us past the hard parts. Instead, he's helping us do

‍

something much more meaningful. He's helping us learn how to live fully, alive,

‍

the way God wants us to live, even when. It's hard. Jim is the author of a powerful new book,

‍

Reclaiming Your Life from Medical Trauma, Recognize the Symptoms, Find Treatment That Works, and

‍

Heal Your Brain and Body. He offers a practical, compassionate guide for navigating the emotional

‍

aftermath of illness and finding your way back to a life that holds meaning and purpose and hope.

‍

Today, we're going to get into what medical trauma actually is and the surprising and maybe not so

‍

surprising ways it might be showing up. What happens psychologically when you receive a difficult

‍

diagnosis? How to develop resilience in these unique situations?

‍

And most of all, we're going to get into how to hold on to your identity when life changes in ways

‍

you didn't choose and how faith factors into that, how you can rely on faith without bypassing

‍

pain, but to enrich your experience of life in the way that God wants for us.

‍

There's this phrase Dr. Jackson uses throughout today's episode that I want you to listen for. It's

‍

this idea of both and. You can be facing something incredibly hard and still build a meaningful,

‍

purposeful life. You can feel grief and still experience so much joy in your day-to-day

‍

encounters. You can experience something that feels so unfair and still hold on to a sense of

‍

goodness. and beauty and hope. I am thrilled to bring you my conversation today with Dr.

‍

James C. Jackson.

‍

I am so thrilled to have you today. You've spent over two decades or more walking with people

‍

through really hard diagnoses of all different types.

‍

We can talk about that a little bit more. I'm curious, just as we get started to frame the

‍

conversation what have these experiences of walking with people through these life-altering

‍

situations taught you about how suffering shapes us as people yeah it's a really good question and

‍

you're right it has been two decades it's been almost 25 years of this work and it's taught me a

‍

few things it's taught me certainly that We shouldn't be too casual about throwing around Bible

‍

verses like Romans 8.28, right? It's taught me that, right? It's true that all things work

‍

together for good. It's true. But in the process, people really suffer. And life with a chronic

‍

condition, with a critical condition, it can be hugely difficult. So I've learned not to be casual

‍

or flippant or... unserious or overly optimistic about how easy this journey might be.

‍

I've learned that. I've also learned that when people are properly supported, when they have the

‍

support they need, when they are steeped in resilience, when they can find a purpose,

‍

they can endure hugely difficult things and they can come out on the other side,

‍

not only surviving, but beautifully. even thriving. I've learned that. I witnessed that.

‍

And that doesn't happen by accident. But it's a vision that I cast for my patients.

‍

And it's a vision that many of them realize. And I've learned that people can thrive in the midst

‍

of really difficult things, shockingly hard things. It's amazing. You use the phrase in your book,

‍

medical trauma. And I thought that was a powerful naming. We talk a lot about trauma,

‍

healing from trauma on the podcast, but this is a specific kind. A lot of people don't even realize

‍

that illness of all different kinds of variety in and of itself, right? A diagnosis can become a

‍

trauma. What do you mean by this term and how does it show up in people's lives?

‍

It's a really important term. And I think where I started to think about it really.

‍

was in my work at the Department of Veterans Affairs at the local VA hospital, where often trauma

‍

is framed correctly in the context of combat,

‍

PTSD after service in Iraq, after service in Vietnam, long ago after World War II.

‍

Of course, that's trauma. But as I heard such strong emphases on trauma at the VA,

‍

it occurred to me... that wasn't a term that we were using at all in the medical world writ large.

‍

It was not a term we were using. And as I engaged with patients, I realized that even though they

‍

hadn't been in Vietnam, even though they weren't in a foxhole in World War II, they had a lot of

‍

the same symptoms. They were anxious. They were chronically hypervigilant. They were avoidant.

‍

They were emotionally activated all the time. often by things that were quite profound,

‍

profound birth trauma, major operations, but often by things that were easy to overlook,

‍

often quite traumatized by things that we might not think would be that significant.

‍

And I think that's how trauma works, right? Like we don't get to decide for somebody else what is

‍

traumatic. There are things that are profoundly traumatic to me. that people seem to manage very

‍

effectively and there are things that at a glance don't necessarily seem that traumatic and they're

‍

hugely derailing. And in the medical arena, those can develop in everything from getting a

‍

difficult diagnosis to being in the ICU to struggling with a chronic illness to other things like

‍

being routinely dismissed by a well-meaning provider. I think that can be hugely traumatic.

‍

So I really cast a broad net.

‍

Everything difficult in the medical arena that happens, of course, is not traumatic. But many,

‍

many things are. One of the reasons for the book was I wanted to affirm people and give a name to

‍

what they were feeling. And that name for many is medical trauma. Gosh, just as you were going

‍

through that list, I thought even in this day and age, working with health insurance companies can

‍

become traumatic. Yes. Deeply, creating financial trauma and stress. And ironically,

‍

the trauma then, especially, I mean, whether it's psychological or medical, it's all intertwined,

‍

right? Because all of that cortisol and anxiety can also then interact with what's going on

‍

medically. Yeah, absolutely.

‍

so many contexts. But where I see it a lot is in avoidance. What I see is someone has had a bout

‍

with cancer or perhaps they had a parent who had a bout with cancer and so they decide not to get a

‍

skin check because they're afraid that that mole might be melanoma because their mother or father

‍

had melanoma. So the painful irony is that by the time they've waited five years to get that skin

‍

check, it's very likely that that actually might be the melanoma. And now they've got a brand new

‍

challenge that they didn't have before. And then that makes them even more avoidance.

‍

So that'd just be one example, that avoidance that has real world implications,

‍

it can really derail people. That is such an interesting, right, that byproduct of a familial

‍

situation. It makes a lot of sense. And we see this. Talk to us a little bit about...

‍

When someone does find their way to you and they've received a serious diagnosis,

‍

right, or they're facing a major health crisis, what do you typically see? So this is a person who

‍

has faced, you know, for whatever reason, they've had to come face to face with this really hard

‍

news. What typically happens psychologically in those first moments, those first weeks,

‍

those first months? What's the trajectory to kind of normalize? Because oftentimes I think some of

‍

this just isn't normalized, right? It's not normalized. And often what happens is people feel

‍

incredibly out of control. I think that's the first thing. They feel incredibly out of control. So

‍

there's a lot of value in simply saying, we've seen this before.

‍

You know, people have had this experience before. And there are predictable, there are thoughtful.

‍

There are data-centered ways to help you. And we're going to engage those, right?

‍

We're going to engage those. We're going to help you regulate your emotions. We're going to help

‍

you lean into social support. We're going to help you realize that there are ways to accept this

‍

uncertainty that can be really empowering and beautiful. And there are ways to find meaning in

‍

this. You certainly don't want to lead with, let's find some meaning in this, right? Like this is

‍

hugely difficult. Let's find some meaning. I think that would be a very cruel thing to do.

‍

And yet, down the road over time, people who tend to do well in the context of medical trauma,

‍

they find a way to make some sense of it. They find a way to make some meaning of it. And people

‍

who do well find a way to realize.

‍

that that there is a I'm going to call it there is a both andness to things and that is people

‍

begin to realize I can both have a chronic illness and I can live a really fulfilling life I can be

‍

grappling with a frightening diagnosis and I can learn to be present with my family both and and I

‍

think that piece is particularly important because on the heels of a trauma It's very easy to move

‍

into this place of my identity shattered. My life is over. You know,

‍

my future has been blown up. And those things might feel true. They aren't necessarily true.

‍

And it's important to say to people, let's take a step back. Let's take a few deep breaths.

‍

Let's reflect on what's about to happen. And let's find a way to embrace the both andness of

‍

things. Yeah, I love that. I think you're saying something so important there. Maybe it's not the

‍

first meeting. There's a lot of kind of normalizing and containing very real emotions initially.

‍

Yes. But it's not where you have to stay. You got to feel that. You got to go through that. I'm

‍

sure there's a lot of grief. There's a lot of processing. But eventually that process,

‍

when you do it and you don't bypass it, we talk a lot on the podcast of what I think of as.

‍

spiritual bypassing, right? And sometimes as believers, as folks who are people of faith,

‍

we can too quickly get to the good news without first walking through,

‍

this is hard. And that makes a lot of sense. So just to normalize, this is hard stage before we get

‍

to the meaning and hope and future. Yeah, I think that's right. I love the poet Robert Frost among

‍

all poets. I love poetry. And Robert Frost had a lot of quotes.

‍

but to me, the quote that has landed most powerfully over the years has been, the only way around

‍

is through. The only way around is through. No shortcuts, there's no magic elixir, the only way

‍

around is through. And that process, that process of finding meaning in suffering,

‍

that can take years, and often it does. For me, in my own life,

‍

and I talk about this in my book quite a bit. I was diagnosed with OCD as a 50-year-old, late in

‍

my life, 50 years old. And when I went to see my psychologist, I had one goal in mind.

‍

And that was, let's get rid of every single OCD symptom that I have.

‍

Let's just burn it down. Let's heal it. Get it done. And she said,

‍

I'm not so sure about that. Jim, you're normally, I think, pretty thoughtful. You're a

‍

sophisticated guy. You should know. can't just pull this out, you know, like a weed. And I said,

‍

other people maybe can't, but I want to, right? I will.

‍

And the way I was framing this, Allison, was that I needed to get rid of it because until I got rid

‍

of it, I couldn't be okay. Nothing would be okay. That's the way that I framed it. And either or,

‍

right? Exactly. Either is gone or I'm, yeah. Exactly. So I leaned into this therapy really hard.

‍

And we talked about acceptance, acceptance, acceptance. We talked about living with it, all of

‍

that. And I've got, you know, a lot of tools, I think, internally at my disposal. And it took me

‍

about two years, two solid years, to even get to the place where I was willing to consider the idea

‍

that I could have OCD and I could be fine. I could be okay, right?

‍

And so sometimes I think... In the Christian arena, we're in a little bit too much of a hurry to

‍

convince people that the Holy Spirit is about to make them a little more accepting or transform

‍

their attitude or whatever. I think that's really naive. I think it can be cruel. I think this

‍

process takes as long as it takes. And sometimes it takes a long time. And the beauty,

‍

as Michael Card sang years ago, the beauty is that... joy is really in the journey. You know,

‍

there's a beauty in this difficult journey. And the goal isn't just getting to the end.

‍

The goal is picking up some wisdom along the way.

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It's such a paradox. It really is. And it really is. I appreciate you sharing your personal story

‍

because it does shape how we understand suffering. And when you've been through it, this idea of

‍

suffering, you know, it's not the most popular trending term that we want to. But the paradox,

‍

I'm thinking of my own life in the last few years, just. And I love how you're, as you were

‍

describing trauma, it's big T or little T. I know for me, some of it has had to do as a woman with

‍

coming to the terms with, I got caught in sort of this trap that's all over the headlines with

‍

menopause, like how that affected me and how it affected my body. And it wasn't a major thing,

‍

but I got trapped in some of the current conversations that.

‍

negatively affected me, right? That have lasting effects, right? And so even at smaller scale or

‍

larger scale, I hear your point and I felt it too, where it takes a while to wrap your mind around

‍

the implications, what it means, who I'm becoming. And at first that can feel like a loss,

‍

but it really is the path. to that freedom. The truth will set us free.

‍

And I want to move into that a little bit, both from your own journey and from your patients,

‍

because you talk about how the difference between people who somehow find the resilience,

‍

find the meaning, find the health. And I've tasted that these last few years. You know,

‍

I've tasted the front end of going, oh, my gosh, I was failed by a medical system. In my case,

‍

this is really painful because it had real implications for me. Right. To a couple of years later,

‍

making peace with it, not in a passive way, but in a very proactive way. Sounds like you've also

‍

gone through that. So what what is the difference for those folks who are able to do that versus

‍

those who really, to your point, you use the word identity and that kind of it steals their sense

‍

of identity? Yeah, it's a great it's a great question. And I'll make a comment before I lean into

‍

that. And that is that I think. the mental health system, psychology and psychiatry.

‍

I think we have failed some patients, frankly, by communicating, and I don't think we've done this

‍

deliberately, but by communicating that every problem can be nicely solved,

‍

right? Like we'll improve your depression and we'll improve your anxiety, we'll improve your PTSD.

‍

I think that's a lovely aspiration. And there are many people for whom that's not their story,

‍

right? Like their mental health symptoms, they don't get better as thoroughly as they might like.

‍

And for those folks, I think it's a little bit of setup sometimes because it's easy to think,

‍

as I noted, that the only way things will be okay is if all of your symptoms go away.

‍

So I think a better approach is to say, you can be okay if your symptoms go away.

‍

You can be okay if your symptoms don't go away. And of course, that takes a long time. This issue

‍

of resilience, how people get it, who gets it. It's a complicated question.

‍

You know, I think that's probably the holy grail, which is how do we turn people into resilient

‍

folks, right, who can walk through a fire, right? They can survive difficult things.

‍

How do we turn people into resilient people? And I don't think we know the answer to that exactly.

‍

I don't think we know how. But I do know that this quality of resilience...

‍

happens, I think, much more effectively when people are surrounded by other people,

‍

when they are in communities of people that are holding them up, that are challenging them,

‍

that are bolstering them, boosting them. This is hard work we're talking about,

‍

living with or recovering from trauma. And there aren't many rules, there aren't many axioms in my

‍

work that I think are always true. But one of them that I see in this medical trauma space is that

‍

when people are walking this medical trauma journey alone, they do less well.

‍

And when they're walking it with others, they do better. And so one of the first things I think

‍

that we want to do when we're helping support people in the context of medical trauma is we want to

‍

try to move them from isolation to engagement. And it's not always so easy.

‍

Sometimes it's more aspirational than something that can be realized. But I'm a big believer in the

‍

idea that healing really occurs in the context of community.

‍

We were made for community. And I think it's a little bit of a fool's errand when people believe

‍

that they can manage these difficult things on their own. It's too much.

‍

And so that's why at Vanderbilt, one of the things that we... really emphasized over the last five

‍

or six years is support groups. We have a medical trauma support group. We have a long COVID

‍

support group. We have a family members of ICU survivors support group that is meeting right after

‍

this podcast. And it's because there is healing in community. And in this moment that we're living

‍

in, people are pretty isolated. There's a great book that I love called Bowling Alone by Robert

‍

Putnam, sociologist. And he says in that book, More people are bowling. That's great.

‍

I grew up in Michigan, love bowling. But tragically, more people are bowling alone. And our goal

‍

with these patients is let's stop bowling alone. Let's join arms and let's learn resilience by

‍

watching, listening, seeing the stories of other people who are engaging in hard things and

‍

believing that we can too. Yeah. That's powerful. I think that's such a word. I love that that's

‍

the one axiom that kind of holds across. Here's a related question,

‍

and I'm curious even how this has played out in your own journey,

‍

if that's a fair question. There's the resilience question,

‍

and then there is this identity question. um of figuring out who am i now and i think that does

‍

happen a lot in community as you're kind of wrestling with um how did that play out for you that

‍

that sense of what does it mean that this is now part of who i am versus i'm i've got to get rid of

‍

this to be who i am yeah it's it's a really interesting question and i do think identity um is so

‍

important it might be the single most important thing in the context of these issues, because often

‍

these illnesses come on very suddenly. And for people, there's a,

‍

there's a huge before and after dynamic where they look wistfully on their old life.

‍

Right. And sometimes they frame it as more perfect than it was in contrast to this,

‍

this, this field of destruction, which is my new life. And then they see this Delta.

‍

And they feel like a failure. They feel broken as a result. So for me, when I was diagnosed with

‍

OCD and began to battle OCD, I had a hard time integrating the pre-OCD Jim Jackson with the post

‍

-diagnosis Jim Jackson. I moved quickly from I'm a person that I like. I'm a person that I respect.

‍

I'm a person that I think can thrive in the world. To feeling like I was being knocked around by a

‍

mental illness. And that was what defined me. I took on that mantle. Oh, wow. And it was really

‍

hard for me. In time, I began to realize that two things were true. That I had OCD.

‍

And that the things that always had been true of me were still true of me. I managed to find a way

‍

to hold those together. And I think one of the really important things.

‍

that I do with my patients in support groups or individually is to say, you know,

‍

there's one John Jackson, there's one Bob Nelson,

‍

there's one Beth Swanson, it's one person, right? Like let's push back against the strict

‍

conceptualization of, hey, this is you before, this is you after. It's all you,

‍

you know, it's you. So let's integrate this. And let's embrace this development that you have

‍

cancer now, that you have Parkinson's disease now, that you have dementia, that you have a brain

‍

injury, whatever. Let's embrace it as part of your story because it is part of your story. Let's

‍

honor it. But let's really resist the tendency to make it all of your story.

‍

Because it's not all of your story. Let's vigorously push back against the idea that it's all of

‍

your story. Because I think if you... if you embrace it as all of your story, all of the

‍

limitations that you associate with that are limitations that you begin to wear like a suit of

‍

clothes. And that's really problematic because, in my opinion at least,

‍

you're likely not as limited as you think you are. So let's integrate these identities and let's

‍

resist believing that this is all of your story because you're more than your...

‍

my case, OCD. That's really powerful. You don't want it to become your new identity.

‍

Right. You have to integrate it with. You have to integrate who you thought you took yourself to be

‍

and who. And at some level, that is the journey of life because we're all going to bump into some

‍

of these things. But at that really heightened level of a tough diagnosis, you're figuring out how

‍

to. Honor it. I love how you said that. Honor it while still honoring the person you still are.

‍

Exactly. And that's what takes some time. Yeah, it takes time. And often what I've noted is on the

‍

heels of a new diagnosis, in my case, OCD, but again, we can come up with 101 examples.

‍

On the heels of a new diagnosis, often that new diagnosis and that identity is pretty thoroughly

‍

embraced. And often that's a function of... Simple things. Now I'm spending all my time at the

‍

cancer center. Right now I'm surrounded by cancer patients. Now I'm getting chemotherapy. It's easy

‍

for that to become a huge part of my identity. But typically the process we would want is let's

‍

shift you from making this 99.9% of who you are in the direction of something a little more full

‍

-orbed. And most people can do that. But some people get stuck. Some people get stuck in this place

‍

of this is the beginning and end of me. This is who I am when I wake up. This is who I am when I go

‍

to bed. And I think it's incumbent on us as mental health providers or for that matter as pastors

‍

to invite people, and this is important, invite, to invite people to think about it a different

‍

way. It's not helpful to insist that they think about it another way. It's not helpful to try to

‍

pull their jaws open. force feed them with these insights, but to gently invite them to even

‍

consider the idea that this isn't entirely who they are. willing to even consider it,

‍

I think we can work with that. So it almost sounds like there's some real practical ways in the

‍

sense of almost what you're saying is when you're dealing with, you know, my own experience with

‍

different things, if you're dealing with a diagnosis or an illness. Even just for the sheer fact of

‍

you've got to be at the doctors a lot or you've got to, it's part of your weekly rhythms. It's kind

‍

of a path of least resistance to build your life around it. And it almost sounds like you have to

‍

work to an impractical level or it would be wise or invite yourself to the extent that you can to

‍

continue to do some of the things that you used to do and not let it completely.

‍

Maybe have conversations. And this is the thing about support groups, right? You want to find

‍

people who can. identify with what you've been through, understand it in a way that nobody else

‍

does. And I could imagine it might also be wise and in many instances to have a couple of people

‍

who aren't part of that world. I mean, that's just one example. But I've kind of noticed that even

‍

like sometimes you want folks who aren't talking about it or who are doing something completely

‍

different because it kind of reminds you of the other side of yourself. Yeah, no, it's a really

‍

that's a really astute point. And there's some research, by the way. that shows that the

‍

underbelly, if you will, of support groups is that if not done properly,

‍

they can reinforce some things that are unhelpful, which are,

‍

this is where I start. This is where I stop. They can become an echo chamber.

‍

And to the extent that they do that, I think it's really unhelpful. So it is about keeping that

‍

tether to who you've always been. and recognizing that that's still true and i'm not a i'm not a

‍

cognitive behavior behaviorist per se but but it it is recognizing you know what this is still true

‍

you have a tether to who you were yeah even if it doesn't feel true right like even on the days

‍

that you don't feel like you're the same person let's embrace the idea that in so many respects you

‍

are and also i i think this is important sometimes when people have had a hard trauma they um they

‍

look wistfully back on the good old days and sometimes they can inadvertently make the good old

‍

days a little more perfect than they were yeah and that can kind of deepen the rift between who i

‍

was and who i am and and certainly with trauma that can introduce brand new challenges and it's

‍

true that there was never probably a time in your life when things were totally perfect. So this is

‍

a new challenge, but it's not necessarily the case that it's the only new challenge.

‍

Yeah, we can romanticize the past. Yeah, I love the both and, right? There's such a both and that

‍

we're balancing here of acceptance, grieving and accepting. And let's talk a little bit here about

‍

the spiritual component. of healing and doing this integrative work.

‍

And I think it's such a resource, you know, to folks. We've talked about how we can spiritually

‍

bypass, how it can be misused, but it is also such a resource. What kinds of spiritual questions do

‍

you hear from people facing just really hard diagnoses or ongoing illnesses or,

‍

you know, what kind of spiritual questions come up and how can our faith become that?

‍

that scaffolding that resource for us it's a great question i mean the first thing i would say is

‍

that many people and this is this is regrettable i think um many people in the throes of medical

‍

trauma will tell me that nobody has really engaged spiritual questions with them at all right and i

‍

think um i think it's unfortunate because uh that's a bit of a swing and a miss right like when

‍

when people encounter trauma, certainly people in the South where I live, but in the Midwest,

‍

really all over the United States, all over the world. It intersects with spiritual beliefs.

‍

It intersects with their religious faith. I wish my colleagues would be a little more willing to

‍

jump in the deep end of the pool with people, even if they don't know the answer and recognize

‍

there's a spiritual dimension to this. And I think the spiritual dynamics in the lives of patients

‍

can unfold. a few different ways obviously some people can be angry with god about such things as

‍

timing and intensity and i didn't deserve this and all of that and i think um that's really

‍

appropriate to affirm i think um i have grown in the context of this medical trauma work i have

‍

grown in being very comfortable with um with mystery with with the idea that There aren't

‍

necessarily any good answers to be had, right? That, again,

‍

both and. It feels unfair. And at the end of the day, I believe God is good.

‍

You know, it feels really strange. It feels horrible. It is really hard.

‍

And I believe God is good. So helping people hold those things together and creating the space for

‍

people to struggle. as much as they want and again um not trying to force feed them um this notion

‍

that hey we're going to redeem this by making some meaning but trusting trusting that the holy

‍

spirit has a plan and that he's going to get you to that place where you're going to find a way to

‍

find some meaning when you need to you know in the in the religious tradition that i grew up in uh

‍

went to a little kind of a fundamentalist Bible church in the upper Midwest.

‍

And in that tradition, there was never much willingness for things to take some time.

‍

You know, the idea was you better get saved today before you walk out of the building,

‍

because if you don't, you might get hit by a car in the parking lot. And we know how that's going

‍

to go, right? There was a lot of pressure on us. To do God's work is the way I would put it.

‍

And in the more reformed tradition that I have been in in a while or for a while,

‍

there's this idea that that God's sovereignty is at work. Right. And things will unfold as they're

‍

going to unfold. And I don't have to drag a person along to get them to where I think they should

‍

be. Instead. I can trust that the Holy Spirit is going to nudge them and help them get there.

‍

It takes a lot of pressure off of us, I think, whether we're psychologists or pastors,

‍

whatever role we're in. And so I try not to get ahead of my patients,

‍

and I try to acknowledge, sometimes I'm pretty vulnerable about it related to my own story,

‍

that these traumatic experiences, they don't just shake your faith.

‍

your physician or your nurse practitioner or your insurance company, they often shake your faith in

‍

God, right? They shake your faith in God. And giving people the space to struggle with that,

‍

I think is so important. And in particular, avoiding sanitized,

‍

easy answers that I think are not satisfying to anyone,

‍

right? And doing what Job's friends... were willing to do with him, right? which is I'm going to

‍

sit next to you in this ash heap, and I'm not going to say anything, and I'm just going to practice

‍

the gift of presence with you, and we're going to walk down a winding path together,

‍

and sometimes we're both going to shrug our shoulders and say, what on earth is going on? Do you

‍

know? I don't know. Do you know? No, I don't know. But just being willing to sit in it, I think

‍

that's quite a gift. i love that it it working at the pace of the spirit because we don't know and

‍

that i love that both and of i think that's worth really double clicking on that both and of um i i

‍

don't like this this feels unfair this does feel like more than i can handle this isn't okay and

‍

god is good which is such a job that that is sort of the template we see in joe where it wasn't

‍

that he didn't suffer. He, he was really not okay. And he was honest about that.

‍

And I, I, God, you are God, you know, and, and somewhere in that the spirit finds its way and it's

‍

such a paradox. Um, but it is, and I would, I would say this if I can,

‍

you know, very often, well, for example, in the past five years or so,

‍

a lot of my work has been in the long COVID space and in that space, There are huge numbers of

‍

people that don't look that sick, but they really are that sick, right? They're hugely sick. And so

‍

their family members, well-meaning, will say, I think you need to work a little bit harder,

‍

right? Like, I think you need to eat a little healthier. Maybe you should exercise more. They're

‍

very oriented, in a way, to what in the church we would call works righteousness,

‍

right? Like, you've got to pray a little bit more, right? got to lean in a little more and so so

‍

it's easy for that message you've got to do more to translate into people feeling like you know if

‍

i just prayed a little more if i just went to confession a little bit more if i was just a little

‍

better maybe god would hear my prayers a little bit more and i would stop struggling with fill in

‍

the blank right this illness that won't go away and and um the truth is it's just not that simple

‍

right it's not that simple And sometimes we don't have answers. And instead of throwing our hands

‍

up and running away from the fact that we don't have answers, I think a better approach is to lean

‍

into the fact that we don't have answers and find a way to make peace with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

‍

It's a delicate. It is. Again, even that's the both end of doing what is within my control.

‍

It always goes back to that serenity prayer, like what is within my control? Of course,

‍

I'm going to try to do what is within my control to the best of my ability and release a lot that

‍

is not within my control. And it's a balancing act,

‍

I think, of figuring that out. As we close here, Dr. Jackson, I'm thinking of the listener who's

‍

really feeling this. Maybe they've been in a long journey of holding something that's really hard,

‍

whether it's physical or mental. What is one small step they could take just today,

‍

that next step to move toward that reclaiming of life,

‍

reclaiming of goodness, reclaiming of identity in what's true and good and not only in what's hard?

‍

What would you say to that person? It's a great question. I think the one small step,

‍

therapeutically at least, the one small step that I think for most people could be achieved and

‍

could be helpful is to begin to even be open to the possibility that you can live a full and

‍

meaningful life with fill in the blank, right? With ongoing birth trauma,

‍

with... challenges related to cancer,

‍

with challenges related to ALS, post-intensive care syndrome, whatever it is,

‍

that with that, you can live a meaningful life. And I don't think people can get there overnight,

‍

but it starts with being open. As you're aware, there's this approach called stages of change

‍

theory, right? And in that theory, you go from pre-contemplation to contemplation to action to

‍

maintenance. So you start thinking, I'm not ready to give up cigarettes.

‍

I'm not even ready to think about it, but I'm ready to think about thinking about it, right? That's

‍

pre-contemplation followed by now I'm thinking about it. I'm still not ready, but I'm thinking. So

‍

what I would say is let's start with, I'm not ready to accept this.

‍

I'm not ready to even think of accepting it. But I'm ready to think about the idea that one day I

‍

want to think about it. Right. Because then I'm on the path. I'm not ready to consider that I can

‍

live a meaningful life with long COVID. But you know what? I'm going to begin to think about the

‍

possibility that maybe I could consider that. Yeah. That's a starting point for me, because if you

‍

start there, then the dominoes start to fall and you move in a beautiful direction where eventually

‍

you can see. Hopefully you can see the beauty in some things that you didn't ask for and you don't

‍

want. And that doesn't make your life perfect or easy, but it does make your life meaningful.

‍

And if you can find a way to make your life meaningful, Katie, bar the door.

‍

All bets are off. You can find a way to really thrive. I love it. Wow, that's a great note to end

‍

on. I love that. Just opening to the possibility. And I love the emphasis on meaning. Maybe it

‍

won't be easy, maybe it won't be perfect, but I can find meaning. Tell my listeners about your book

‍

and about where they can find it and any other resources that you have. Sure. It has quite a long

‍

title. I'll just call it Reclaiming Your Life from Medical Trauma. It is in bookstores on April

‍

28th.

‍

In Barnes and Nobles, it's on Amazon currently. It can be pre-ordered. We talked about the word

‍

practical earlier. And I think one of the really nice compliments that has happened as I've written

‍

this book, as you know, you send a book to people and they provide you blurbs. You hope they'll

‍

provide you blurbs, right? Some do, some don't. But the blurbs about my book that were really

‍

meaningful to me were, Hey, this is accessible. This is practical, right? It's a practical guide

‍

for people who are struggling with medical trauma. And I think it will take people in the direction

‍

they need to go. I think it will be compassionate and hopeful without being all about rainbows and

‍

unicorns, right? Like this is really hard stuff. And there are reasons to be hopeful. We have a...

‍

have a research center at Vanderbilt. They can contact me there. I have a website,

‍

jamescjackson.com. They can contact me there. They can send me an email. If you send me an email,

‍

if I get 1,000 emails, it might take a while. But if someone sends me an email, I'll respond, and

‍

it will be a privilege to do that. And if your listeners need a referral, if they need some

‍

guidance, and I can, I'm happy to provide it. That's amazing. Thank you so much. We'll link to all

‍

that in the show notes. I continually hear stories of folks who listen to an episode and it just is

‍

exactly what they needed. And it's all over the country. And I just love that you're willing to

‍

come on here and share these resources with us. And for someone out there, I know it's going to be

‍

for many people out there. it's going to be a huge help. So we really appreciate your time and just

‍

thank you for your work and blessings to you and all that you're doing. You're very kind and thanks

‍

for the good work you're doing. You're thoughtful and delightful and people benefit because of the

‍

work you do. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best

‍

of You. It would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify,

‍

YouTube, or wherever you listen to or watch podcasts and click the plus or follow button. That'll

‍

ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd

‍

love it if you leave a five star review. And be sure to join us each weekday for the best of you

‍

every day, a brief daily reflection to help you start your mornings with a steady dose of wisdom.

‍

Remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true

‍

to your God-given self.

What if procrastination isn’t about laziness… but a disconnect between who you want to be and what you actually do?

So many of us carry goals we care deeply about: habits we want to build, changes we long to make, ways we want to grow. And yet, we find ourselves stuck in the same patterns, circling the same resistance, wondering why it’s so hard to follow through.

In this episode, ⁠Dr. Alison Cook⁠ and goals expert and New York Times bestselling author ⁠Jon Acuff⁠ explore what’s really happening beneath procrastination and how to finally begin moving forward.

Because procrastination isn’t a character flaw. It’s a gap.

A gap between your intentions and your actions.

And over time, that gap can quietly erode something deeper: your trust in yourself.

If you’ve ever felt stuck, overwhelmed by your goals, or caught in cycles of starting and stopping… this conversation will help you understand why and what to do next.

You’ll explore:

• Why procrastination isn’t about laziness and what’s actually driving it
• The hidden impact of broken self-trust (and how to begin rebuilding it)
• How your “soundtracks” (repetitive thoughts) shape your actions and results
• The real reason discipline alone doesn’t work and what does
• The 4 key places people get stuck in the growth process (and how to move forward)

This conversation offers a practical, compassionate path forward, helping you close the gap between who you want to be and how you’re actually living, one small step at a time.

More Resources:

Make sure to grab Jon Acuff’s latest book ⁠Procrastination Proof: Never Get Stuck Again⁠ and then⁠ claim $97 worth of free bonuses⁠.

Take Jon's free procrastination profile ⁠here⁠.

Connect further with ⁠⁠@dralisoncook⁠⁠ on Instagram

Want to go deeper with Dr. Alison? Join 80,000+ soul menders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices ⁠here⁠. 

Want to hear more like this? Start here:

⁠Episode 199:⁠ How the Body Teaches the Soul with Justin Whitmel Earley

⁠Episode 157⁠: Braving Change—3 Ways to Get Unstuck and Transform Guilt and Regret

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode⁠ here⁠

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While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

‍

TRANSCRIPT

Procrastination is just when your actions don't match your intentions. When there's a gap between

‍

who you say you want to be and who you actually are. A goal is never just a goal. A goal is a

‍

promise you made to yourself. And every time you break it, it gets easier to break the next one.

‍

The things you think become the things you do become the things you get. And so there's a lot of

‍

times where we over-focus on the results we want, but we never change the underlying thoughts so

‍

we don't get new actions. Like, what does it look like for you to give yourself permission?

‍

permissions that we found were the most valuable in this order were permission to dream,

‍

permission to plan, permission to do and permission to review.

‍

Hey everyone. And welcome back to this week's deep dive episode of the Best of You podcast. I'm so

‍

glad you're here with me today for this conversation. Today's episode sits in a part of the growth

‍

journey that I think is so important. So often here on the podcast, we talk about healing by

‍

looking beneath the surface, by trying to understand our patterns, our pain, our stories,

‍

the ways we've adapted in the places where we still need healing or repair. And this work is so

‍

important.

‍

truth about where we've been and what has shaped us. And it's all toward this wiser way of being

‍

human. And there's also another part of growth that matters. It's equally important.

‍

At some point, we find ourselves asking, now what? How do I move forward?

‍

How do I make a change? How do I stop circling the same patterns, the same resistance, and actually

‍

take a step toward the life I wanna live? We sort of move from the inside into the action. And

‍

that's what today's conversation is about. I often get asked about the difference between therapy

‍

on one hand and coaching on the other. And while there's absolutely overlap, between the two,

‍

they're generally doing different kinds of work. Therapy is often about understanding our symptoms

‍

and patterns and pain and relationships in the deeper context of our lives. Coaching,

‍

on the other hand, tends to be more focused on goals, on action, on momentum, and helping you move

‍

forward in a practical way. And both have incredible value. I think both are important and both can

‍

serve us at different seasons of our lives. And part of wisdom is knowing which kind of help we

‍

need in a given season. That's why I was thrilled to have John Acuff join me on the show today.

‍

John Acuff is a New York Times bestselling author. He's a speaker, a coach, and an expert on

‍

overthinking goals and getting unstuck. He's written several books, including soundtracks,

‍

where he explores the repetitive thoughts that keep us trapped. And he has a brand new book out

‍

this week. It's called Procrastination Proof. And if you're anything like me, that procrastination

‍

topic really resonates. What I appreciate about John is that he brings a lot of practicality to

‍

this conversation. He's thoughtful. He tells great stories. he's really observant about human

‍

behavior. And his work is so helpful in just helping us figure out how to take that next step.

‍

Because the truth is, insight matters. Understanding your story matters. And sometimes you also

‍

need tools. You need structure. You need language for why you keep putting something off. You need

‍

help noticing the thoughts that are tripping you up. And you need help getting into motion again.

‍

That's where today's conversation goes. We talk about John's own story of procrastination and what

‍

led him to write this book. We talk about goals, what makes a goal meaningful, and how to think

‍

honestly about the difference between a life-giving goal and one that might be driven by pressure,

‍

perfectionism, or even fantasy. We talk about the inner scripts we repeat to ourselves,

‍

the soundtracks, that's what John calls them, these soundtracks that keep us stuck, and what it's

‍

like to start rewriting. these soundtracks. And toward the end of the episode, John shares really

‍

personally about how he's rewired his own brain to think differently about God. So with that,

‍

please enjoy my conversation with John Acuff.

‍

All right, well, John, I am thrilled to have you here today. I've followed your work and feel like

‍

we have these overlapping circles with your background in Boston and Nashville. So thanks for

‍

joining us. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it. I want to just start kind of with your

‍

personal story. Your book is so practical. It's about procrastination,

‍

but it comes out of your own personal journey with procrastination. Would you start just helping us

‍

understand your own relationship with procrastination and how things kind of shifted for you?

‍

Yeah, a friend of mine who's a comedian said, I saw your new topic and I was like, oh, geez, this

‍

guy, what does he know about procrastination? He's always getting things done. And that was a funny

‍

statement because it meant he didn't know me the first 34 years of my life. I mean, I knew in the

‍

third grade, speaking of Massachusetts, my... third grade teacher at Doyon Elementary School in

‍

Ipswich laminated some poems. I knew in third grade I wanted to write a book, but I really was like

‍

a lot of other people, pretty lost in my 20s, pretty aimless in my late 20s, pretty distracted and

‍

frustrated in my early 30s, had a very up and down career, probably had six jobs in eight years,

‍

like real jobs. pretty average marriage out of shape. And in my mid thirties,

‍

I really started to tap into what mindset can do, what you can do with goals,

‍

what you can do when you embrace this. really unpopular phrase in our culture called personal

‍

responsibility. And I started to dial this in. And so I couldn't have written Procrastination Proof

‍

as my second book because it wouldn't have been true yet. It would have been an arrogant 37-year

‍

-old going, no, maybe this is the way. But on book 11 at 50, I feel pretty good going,

‍

hey, I figured this thing out. And you don't have to wait to do the things you're called to do. And

‍

there's some specific things you can do. So that's why I wrote it as somebody who had...

‍

years, for decades, kind of started, stopped, started, stopped, tried a different thing, tried a

‍

different thing, and never really gotten any traction. And so the last 16 years, I've released,

‍

again, 11 books because I learned how to deal with what I would consider a mindset issue like

‍

procrastination. Interesting. So how do you define it? How do you define this term procrastination

‍

that so many of us are familiar with? Oh, yeah. My favorite definition that works for me is

‍

procrastination is just when your actions don't match your intentions. When there's a gap between

‍

who you say you want to be and who you actually are. And the flip of that, you know,

‍

the opposite to me is a remarkable life. And that's when your actions overlap with your intentions.

‍

Where there's almost the Venn diagram is so close that it's almost an eclipse. And so who you say

‍

you want to be is who you actually are in a consistent, ever-growing way. And so,

‍

yeah, procrastination is when there's a big gap between those two things. And an example of that

‍

would be, according to the New York Times, 82% of Americans want to write a book. And if you look

‍

at publishing records, less than 1% do every year. So 82% have this intention,

‍

1% do the action. That's a massive gap. And so I like to use this book to close the gap with

‍

people. Oh, that's such a great – this is what I love about your work. You take these sort of terms

‍

and bring a depth to it because there's almost an integrity in what you're saying, right? There's

‍

an integrity. Yeah. Yeah. I love that you use that word. I always tell people a goal is never just

‍

a goal. A goal is a promise you made to yourself. And every time you break it, it gets easier to

‍

break the next one. And you don't want to beat yourself up for breaking it, but there does become

‍

this kind of residue and distrust. You start to distrust the person you spend the most time with.

‍

And that's a really difficult place to be. Yeah. Yeah. You're building that, which is one of the

‍

things. So on the podcast, we talk a lot about trauma and healing. And one of those very basic

‍

building blocks is learning to rebuild that trust with yourself. So you went exactly where I want

‍

to go. Before we go deeper on procrastination, let's back it up into goals. Because I think

‍

sometimes we can beat ourselves up, right? And so we have a goal. We're not achieving it.

‍

And a lot of times, I think what fills in the gap is shame. Right? Oh,

‍

yeah. Which doesn't help at all. You know, I just beat myself up that I'm not the person I wish I

‍

was. So talk to me a little bit. You're really big on goals. How do we,

‍

and I know this ties into procrastination, so take this where you want to go, but how do we begin

‍

when we've got a, you know, you talked about how you kind of had this pile of things you weren't

‍

proud of. And I think sometimes we can get overwhelmed if we set the goal as,

‍

something that we're not going to achieve. And then, then we feel more shame. Like, how do we just

‍

start? How do we get out of that stuck place? Yeah.

‍

A lot of my work is kind of the opposite of what's popularly said right now,

‍

meaning like people go, go big or go home. But I know through experience with helping a million

‍

people with their goals, most of them go home. And so a lot of what I do at the outset with

‍

somebody is where they go, I want to change every part of my life. Or I want to run a marathon.

‍

I'll always go, have you ever run a half marathon? Have you ever run a 10K or a 5K? Even just a K.

‍

Get like a tiny little medal. And they go, no, I heard an Eminem song. I'm inspired. I bought a

‍

carbon fiber bike. I'm going for it. And I know that's not sustainable. And so sometimes it starts

‍

from a good place, like wild optimism. Or you see somebody online that tells you, you should 100x

‍

your sales. And you go, well, I have to do it this way. And we feel like the little things don't

‍

count. the little steps, the little progress. And then we do get into that shame where we're so

‍

unfair to ourselves. I'll give you an example. I was talking to a real estate agent and she was

‍

saying, I'm just not doing as many sales as I used to do. I'm not crushing it. And I said, well,

‍

has anything in your life changed lately? Is there anything different? And she said, no, not

‍

really. And I kept asking. And eventually she said, well, I mean, I am taking care of my dad who

‍

has early onset dementia for about 20 hours a week. And I said, that's a massive shift.

‍

The soundtrack that I gave her, and soundtrack is just a phrase I use for a repetitive thought, was

‍

new seasons deserve new scorecards. New seasons deserve new scorecards. You're in a new season and

‍

you're judging your current results against the season a year ago when you didn't have a dad that

‍

you were trying to take care of. And it's the same with young moms when they have kids and they go,

‍

yeah, I'm just not performing the way I want to. And I go, yeah, you have twins. You have two,

‍

three months old. That you're wearing clothes is amazing. Like we're going to have to change the

‍

bar. So I do spend a lot of what I do helping people. Be kind to themselves,

‍

not beat themselves up, you know, not regret that they haven't made faster progress.

‍

But it's just I've never met somebody whose tool for long term sustainable change was shame.

‍

Like it's just not it's it's not a good like you can whip yourself into shape temporarily.

‍

It's a really interesting conversation about. I meet CEOs and executives who used anger as a fuel.

‍

Yeah. And the problem with anger as a fuel, it will get you some places. It will. It'd be silly to

‍

not say otherwise, but it's kind of like when. When they launch a rocket, they have a certain type

‍

of fuel that helps it break through the atmosphere. But then once it does that, they drop that fuel

‍

because that fuel is not sustainable. It's too dangerous. You can't steer it. You can't actually

‍

use it. They have to use a more stable fuel. And so I try to get people to go like, I get that

‍

you've used this fuel to get somewhere. I'm just telling you. it's long-term,

‍

it's going to ruin your marriage. Long-term, it's going to ruin your health. Long-term, you're

‍

going to get some rewards, but you're not going to even enjoy them because you've burned yourself

‍

up. I love that. You've got to meet yourself where you are as you're rebuilding that trust.

‍

And I think that, and this ties into the procrastination conversation. I think a lot of people

‍

think, to your point about the real estate agent you were working with, think that procrastination

‍

is laziness. Oh yeah, no. What is actually going on beneath it then?

‍

The people I know that work the hardest deal with procrastination the most. And the reason I say

‍

that, like I always tell people that listen to podcasts like yours, by the way, congratulations,

‍

you're a high performer. You're a high performer. They always go, no, that's other special

‍

different people. And I go, no, low performers don't listen to podcasts like this. They don't even

‍

know this category exists. They don't read books like these. That you're even in this conversation

‍

means you're already. trying to change something. And so the people I know who go, Hey,

‍

I want to do more. I know I'm capable of more are often doing a lot already. They just need to

‍

tweak something. So no procrastination isn't a laziness problem and therefore hard work won't fix

‍

it. Like discipline won't fix it. The big thing for me with discipline, I still haven't met

‍

somebody who changed their life just because meaning they said, John, today I got up and decided to

‍

have grit today. I just decided to have sacrifice or willpower. It's never that. It's usually one

‍

of two things. There was a desire or disappointment. One of those two things got loud enough to get

‍

their attention. There was something they wanted or they didn't like where they were. Like no one

‍

willingly leaves the comfort zone. And you shouldn't. It's comfortable. The only reason people

‍

leave the comfort zone is something outside of it is worth being uncomfortable for. And then you

‍

go, oh, so for me, desire always leads to discipline, not the other way around.

‍

And if you think work harder, if I just work harder, if I buckle down, I got to get my life

‍

together. Like if you kind of try to wipe. knuckle that change, it's not sustainable. You don't get

‍

the real change you want. So this really does, everything you're saying leads into this last book

‍

you put out. I feel like there's a part one and a part two here, which was this, right? I mean, I

‍

don't know if that's how you're thinking of it, but the soundtracks, which you mentioned, it's what

‍

you're thinking. So tell us what you mean by soundtracks, because what I'm hearing and what you're

‍

saying is your soundtrack matters to your motivation. Oh my gosh.

‍

Yeah. So mindset's really easy. We've made it kind of woo woo in our culture where you think you're

‍

going to light a sprig of sage in a drum circle and kind of manifest the universe. Like there's a

‍

lot of like woo woo language around it, but mindset's very practical. Your thoughts turn into

‍

actions. Your actions turn into results. The things you think become the things you do become the

‍

things you get. And so there's a lot of times where we over-focus on the results we want, but we

‍

never change the underlying thoughts so we don't get new actions. So for me,

‍

mindset and goals are kind of like peanut butter and jelly. They just go together. And so what

‍

you'll see is often somebody will do a couple different actions, but they haven't changed their

‍

underlying thought, and then they don't actually perform the way they want to. And sometimes it's

‍

they inherited an old soundtrack. from a family of origin. Sometimes it's they were told a certain

‍

thing and believed it. Sometimes it's because they had never taught how to think. I was never

‍

taught how to think. Like in eighth grade, I didn't have a mindset class. In high school, I didn't

‍

have a, here's how to think about yourself in stressful situations so that you don't add shame to

‍

the feeling of stress. You know, thoughts were something outside of us that just showed up on their

‍

own. And then the older you get, hopefully you start to go, wait a second, I think I can control

‍

what I think. I think I can renew my mind, if you will. I can take every thought captive.

‍

I can think of what's noble and true and beautiful. And what if I actually did that? What would the

‍

results be? And so for me, that's... That's what's really, really fun because then you can take

‍

some simple steps. And here's a simple exercise every listener can do. It's my favorite when it

‍

comes to mindset. All you have to do is, number one, write down a goal. And it can be any goal. It

‍

can be I want to lose 10 pounds. It can be I want to write a book. I want to move to Boston. I want

‍

to know my kids better. Any goal. Write down the goal. And the second step is listen to your first

‍

thoughts about that goal. Listen to your reaction to that goal because every reaction is an

‍

education. It's educating you about what you really believe. And then just say, Are they positive

‍

or negative? When I wrote that I'm going to start my own podcast, what are my first thoughts? Oh,

‍

you should. You've got so many interesting things to say. There's not enough podcasts yet. You

‍

should do it. Or were they negative? Who are you to think you could do a podcast? You don't know

‍

anything about the technology. You already missed the boat. And what you find is the majority of

‍

those first thoughts are often negative. I still haven't met somebody whose problem with

‍

overthinking is they overthink kind thoughts about themselves. Where they go, yeah, my main issue,

‍

John, is I'm too nice to me. I'm too... I'm so quick to forgive myself that it's a real hassle.

‍

And so then you go, okay, well, once you identify some negative broken soundtracks, you can do

‍

something about them.

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Okay, this is so good. You are just speaking the language we talk a lot. My background is in parts

‍

work. And so right, these are these parts of us this inner family of voices we have where one part

‍

of us really wants to make this change. And I love what you're saying. Another part of us still has

‍

this broken, you use the word soundtrack, this broken record. And the first step is just to notice

‍

that. You're speaking right out of the therapy playbook. It's just that awareness, right?

‍

It's not to... that. It's to notice it. That's what I'm hearing you say. Just to start to see how

‍

common it is. I mean, even just in conversations with my wife, I told somebody, my marriage is so

‍

easy when I don't add you idiot to the end of sentences my wife is saying to me. So when she says

‍

like, hey, did you remember an umbrella? And I overreact. And I go, of course I have an umbrella.

‍

I'm the king of umbrellas. I've always bringing umbrellas. I've added to her sentence, you idiot.

‍

are forgetful you're not detailed you're gonna get wet you're gonna look whatever and her intent

‍

was really just hey We both are going to get wet if we don't have an umbrella. But for me to notice

‍

that and go, oh, wow, I just overreacted to a thing that didn't require that amount of energy, that

‍

amount of emotion. And so for me, self-awareness is a superpower.

‍

And so the three steps of soundtracks, it's very simple. I just teach people, retire your broken

‍

soundtracks, replace them with new soundtracks, repeat those new soundtracks so often they become

‍

as automatic as the old ones. So it's retire, replace, repeat. And it's been so fun for therapists

‍

to reach out. I've had so many therapists go. Soundtracks, the book, is such an easy on-ramp to

‍

conversation with people because it's really simple. It's really funny because I use a lot of

‍

humor. Like I just know if I had named the book Soundtracks Inner Voices, men wouldn't have read

‍

it. They just wouldn't have. Like because men don't want to admit they have an inner voice. But

‍

I'll speak to 1,000 plumbers. I do 50 events a year. It'll be 1,000 plumbers, 98% male room,

‍

and they'll admit they have soundtracks because the – allows them to talk honestly.

‍

Okay. Ladies who are listening. This is for, that's a good tip for your husband who won't take the

‍

therapy speak, but might take the soundtracks. That's a really, it's wild. I talked to 4,000

‍

cattle ranchers the other day. I was at a cattle con, the world's largest beef event. And it was 4

‍

,000 ranchers and they were willing to go on this, like, Oh, why am I holding on to my ranch and

‍

not turning it over to the next generation? What's the broken soundtrack that I have about that?

‍

That's holding me back from allowing my son or my daughter to step into this. And again, And if I

‍

had named it inner voice, it would have been a non-starter. But because it's soundtracked, it's a

‍

really easy conversation. I love that. So I heard you on a podcast share some research that just

‍

stopped me in my tracks. And I'd love for you to share it with us. It had to do with some research

‍

you ran across when you were researching soundtracks about improving at free throws. Oh,

‍

yeah. That's crazy. It's crazy.

‍

And there's so many studies like this. When you start to dig for them, there's just so many. So

‍

this is Research Quarterly did a study where they had – on college students because it feels like

‍

we're always testing things on college students. And so they wanted to test could you improve free

‍

throws by just thinking about getting better at free throws. And so they had two different groups

‍

and one – actually practiced. They went to the court, they shot free throws,

‍

they held a basketball, they did all the things. And one just thought about improving their free

‍

throw. So they'd imagine, okay, I'm shooting a free throw. Oh, I missed that one. Let me, let me

‍

try again. Oh, let me change the arc. And at the end of the 21 day study, the group that had

‍

actually used the balls improved by 24% and the group that had just thought about it improved by

‍

23%. And, and so there's so many, and I mean like the other study that I sometimes reference is,

‍

There was two student groups where they were supposed to form sentences out of a word bank,

‍

like come up with some sentences, and one group had words related to being old, so retired,

‍

slow, bald, Florida. And so they do this test for 45 minutes, and then they say the second part of

‍

the test is down the hall. Please walk into the hall. And the scientists secretly timed how long it

‍

took each group to walk to the end of the hall. And the students who had read the words about being

‍

old physically acted old. They walked slower than the other group. And so you just see that over

‍

and over and over again where the things you think are very important.

‍

And then you go, why don't we talk about this enough? Like, why don't we have practical tools?

‍

Why don't we, like... know, again, every eighth grader, every ninth grader you think about because

‍

they pick these soundtracks up and we'll carry them for 30 years. Yeah. And then it's really hard

‍

to kind of change them in your 60s, your 70s. But like, what if we could learn along the way? Yeah,

‍

it is. It is a sort of mental rigor. And it's not like you're saying,

‍

it's not magic. We are rewiring those neural pathways. And even as you are older, it is possible.

‍

It's like you said, it's I'm thinking of the listener that, you know, it's like catching those old

‍

messages of I'm not good enough or I'll never X or. Or your labels.

‍

Yes. And just it's not magic. It's not. Sometimes I think we think of it like an incantation, like

‍

you're saying. It's like building a muscle. And the neuroscience,

‍

you know, you're genuinely kind of... slowly sometimes, but you're repaving a new neural pathway.

‍

Wait a minute. There's that. I just went down that path. What if I took a right turn? What if I am?

‍

And a lot of times I notice with folks who have them, they're really deeply ingrained. Sometimes

‍

it's just what if I'm right? Just what if there's a possibility that I can,

‍

you know, it doesn't even have to, I don't even have to be totally bought into it yet, but I can be

‍

open to.

‍

Well, and it's a practice too. That's the other thing. Like you have to see mindset as a practice.

‍

I mean, that's why, you know, the third step for soundtracks is to repeat them. Sometimes like I

‍

remember. When the book came out, 48 hours after it came out, people would email me and say, hey,

‍

John, I retired my broken soundtracks. I replaced them with new ones, and it's just not working.

‍

And I would say, well, the book's only been out for two days, so I know you haven't had a chance to

‍

repeat them. Yes. And we want fast progress. So one of my soundtracks I tell people, because what

‍

will happen in diets is people go, this exercise isn't working. I'll say, well, how long have you

‍

done it? They'll say three weeks. They'll say, how long did it take you to gain the weight? They'll

‍

say three years. So you gave the problem three years to develop, and the solution only. three

‍

weeks. That's so unkind to yourself. Never give the problem a year and the solution a week. So like

‍

some of this stuff does, and some of them can disappear in a, in a day. Like there's some that can

‍

just unravel of course. Um, but there's some that like, One of my core broken soundtracks is around

‍

the idea that the true test of talent and ability is to just be able to do things immediately.

‍

No prep, no planning. Planning is cheating. Like the prodigy kind of, like I had this broken

‍

soundtrack of like, we love the underdog story. Like there's a reason why Susan Boyle's audition

‍

for Britain's Got Talent has 50 million views and Carrie Underwoods only has,

‍

you know, a million. Because she didn't fit the mold and we all want to be like, oh, here's this

‍

underdog story. And so I had to learn as a writer, like, no, planning is good.

‍

It's actually good because every time I spend a lot of time on something, I would hear this broken

‍

soundtrack to go, you must not be talented. If you're talented, this would be easier. You wouldn't

‍

have to prepare. This is cheating. Like you really, you shouldn't, it shouldn't take this long. And

‍

I thought, oh, that's interesting. And my definition of talent includes no prep. Boy,

‍

you don't get to run a good business with no prep. Instant success. So the soundtrack that helped

‍

me, and it's not my own, Keith Cunningham said it this way. not smart enough or talented enough to

‍

be unprepared. And that really helped me. Like I'm not smart enough or talented enough to be

‍

unprepared. So now I'm kind enough to myself to give myself preparation time so that I can perform

‍

at my best. But I had to first notice that. You and I are both from... new england so we can bring

‍

up tom brady but i think that's part of why we love the tom brady story is it wasn't an oh yeah

‍

success barely drafted yeah yeah he was you know we he was he had to work he worked for everything

‍

he has i mean obviously a lot of talent too but so let's bring this all back to procrastination

‍

right when someone says because i we've kind of so i i do think a lot of what's underneath it is

‍

our soundtracks are You know, there's more to it. But so so what how do you if someone is kind of

‍

listening, going, I have these things I've wanted to do, you know, whether it's like you said,

‍

you know, whether it's be a better parent, whether it's in the work arena, whether it's in the

‍

relational arena or even just self growth. You know, I want to I want to get out of this stuck

‍

place. And they're not seeing that. What are some. First steps,

‍

what are some, what are you finding really can help us get into the,

‍

out of the just can't get started phase? Yeah, I mean, it's what we've talked about for centuries,

‍

I feel like. It's the small start. I think part of the pressure we put on ourselves, especially

‍

around New Year's resolutions, is that we commit to doing something for a year we've never done for

‍

a day, which is like marrying the person you just met at speed dating. And so I always tell people,

‍

maybe just audition something. Like let's just do a small audition. Let's take all the pressure

‍

off. So if you found 15 minutes a day for the next seven days to try something, let's see what

‍

would happen. And maybe you love it and you double down at the end of the seven days or end of the

‍

two weeks. Or maybe you realize, no, I really don't care about this. Like I've been carrying around

‍

an old goal like some sort of baggage. I have to write a book. And you go like, no,

‍

I tried writing for seven days. I didn't enjoy any of it. Turns out I don't need – and now you're

‍

freed from this thing that – started from a good place, but it's become this anchor around your

‍

neck. So I always try to get people to kind of start small. And then the book,

‍

the core of the book is about how do you give yourself permission? Like what does it look like for

‍

you to give yourself permission? And the four permissions that we found were the most valuable in

‍

this order were. Permission to dream, permission to plan, permission to do, and permission to

‍

review. So when I sit down with somebody, I try to get a pretty quick sense of like, where are they

‍

stuck in that process? Because it's not complicated. So if it's, is it dream? Like they got so many

‍

dreams, but they don't know how to pick one. And they're afraid if they pick the wrong one,

‍

something terrible will happen. And so they're kind of frozen there. Or is it planning? Like they

‍

need to do a little bit of planning and they don't know how to do that. Or is it the doing? And so

‍

that's where I try to get people like, and we have a quiz that does that. It's at johnacoff.com

‍

slash quiz, which is a couple of questions to go, Hey, which of these four spots are you going to

‍

get stuck in? And what can you do about it? I love that. It's, it's deeper than just name it and

‍

claim it there. There's a process. Oh my gosh. No. Yeah. I am so practical. I,

‍

my favorite thing is to simplify complicated things and to add action to things that are kind of

‍

like fuzzy and name it and claim it. is very fuzzy.

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I'm curious about that review step, not to give away everything you've – because I almost hear when

‍

you're describing the start small and you're describing this process, a little bit of mindfulness

‍

in it. Stay mindful because your goals might shift. I know I found that to be true in my life. I'll

‍

have a goal, and then I'm kind of into it, and I'm in the right direction, but I'm like, the goal

‍

changed. Actually, I don't want that thing. It's evolving. Is that something you run across?

‍

Yeah, and it takes the pressure off. like perfectionists are worried that once they commit they

‍

have to commit for the rest of their life i have to do this until i'm dead yeah and so what the

‍

review does is it gives you a pause to go is this still the direction i want to go am i getting the

‍

results i want to get is this still worth the time? Does this still serve me,

‍

this particular goal? So yeah, the path is really, really easy. It's just four different people get

‍

stuck. Dreamers get stuck in the dream stage, obviously. They have a thousand ideas, zero actions.

‍

Perfectionists get stuck planning. They're going to change the world just as soon as the plan is

‍

perfect. I just need a little more data. And there's no end to the data you can get right now,

‍

unfortunately. The hustlers are who get stuck in doing. Hustlers hate a plan and they hate to

‍

review. They just want to go, go, go. They never want to look up. They want to skip right from

‍

dream, right into doing. Sales teams are amazing at this. Sales teams I work with will say things

‍

like, I don't have time to fill out this paperwork. And the leadership will go, it's three fields.

‍

We need to know the name of the customer you sold the product to. And they're like, get me back in

‍

the streets. I'm a salesman. I just want to hustle. And then analysts tend to get stuck in review.

‍

They overreview the mistakes from the past and predict failure in the future. And so they're really

‍

good at going. That's not how we do things here. We tried that before and it didn't work. I'm

‍

hearing that a lot right now with leaders in AI. They'll go, oh, we already tried AI. It didn't

‍

work for us. And I'll go, when? And they'll go, four years ago. And I'll say, for how long? And

‍

I'll say, about a week. We told our most technical guy, Gary, at the office to explore AI. It's

‍

just not for us. And I'll say. it's changed a lot. Maybe we need to do a deeper review and figure

‍

out what to do. But yeah, it's super simple and super fun, but the review is very valuable.

‍

I almost hear in those different types. I think, again, there's a lot of freedom in that,

‍

recognizing we're different kinds of people. I almost hear Enneagram types a little bit, or kind of

‍

our predispositions. We're going to get stuck for different reasons. And so I love that idea of

‍

kind of finding yourself in those four. Where do I tend to get stuck? I had a friend tell me, she

‍

was more of a perfectionist and also maybe a little bit of a doer, but I'm trying to place her in

‍

that. But she was telling me recently that she wrote a paper and it was like a perfectly formed

‍

paper. It was like perfectly laid out, but she got a, it's graduate school. She got a bad,

‍

you know, the teacher said, this is a perfect paper, wrong topic. So essentially she was

‍

formulating all these ideas in the wrong direction. And maybe that's a doer thing where you're

‍

working really hard, but you're not actually going for the thing you want. Yeah. You're making tons

‍

of progress right off a cliff. You're running. There's tons of momentum. There's tons of –

‍

I would say I have friends that I would call success voyeurs,

‍

meaning they'll tell you the 20 leadership podcasts they listen to, but they don't change their

‍

life. They'll tell you the 30 books they read by CEOs of billion-dollar companies, but they're in

‍

debt. And it's their –

‍

guzzling leadership content, but not changing their own life. And so it looks like hustle on the

‍

out. And where I got in trouble with that is one year I read a hundred books and I realized at the

‍

end of it, oh, I did that because I like to tell people I read a hundred books a year. Like I did

‍

that for like the wrong, that's the wrong reason. And two, it was easier to read other books and

‍

write my own. And so I was using a lot of outside on the looking hustle to avoid something that I

‍

really needed to focus on because it was easier to be like, no, I'm just such a great reader. Like,

‍

look at me go. And so that was a form of avoidance for me that actually looked like a lot of

‍

effort, but it wasn't getting me to where I wanted to go. Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, I think we

‍

even see that in therapy culture. We talk about on the podcast where you can have a ton of

‍

knowledge and a ton of insight. But that doesn't always translate,

‍

which is part of why I wanted to have you on the podcast. At the same time, we can have all of

‍

that, and we still have to put one foot in front of the other toward rewiring the soundtracks,

‍

right? Toward taking the steps. We still have to do the work. And you can get caught in all of the

‍

knowledge that we have access to in this day and age. So that makes a lot of sense to me,

‍

what you're saying. Yeah. It can be pretty, it can be, it's a good, it's a very, we call that a

‍

noble obstacle. Like I've just have to finish. I have to master this before I change some part of

‍

my life, which is like saying I have to read 10 books on swimming before I get wet. That's never

‍

how it, like if you've read five books on difficult conversations, but you haven't started a

‍

difficult conversation and like, it might be time to, to start some degree of difficult

‍

conversation. Yeah. How do you, as we're kind of winding down, John, how do you,

‍

see all of this work in your own life and the fruits of it overlapping and intersecting with

‍

spiritual growth and spiritual formation oh yeah I mean my faith is my most important thing to me

‍

so you know the I think there's a lot of people that when they read my books,

‍

will recognize things like, oh, this is renewing your mind. Yes, that's what I hear. Yeah,

‍

and so for me, they're hand in hand. They're not really separate in any way.

‍

I can tell when I've forced an idea versus received an idea.

‍

Meaning, you know, like I feel like writing is an act of worship for me. Figuring out these ideas

‍

is an act of worship. And so I love when something shows up that I don't have to go.

‍

I don't know where it came from. I'm just like, oh my gosh, God, you're so generous. Like what a

‍

fun idea. Or like a very small example that would be the prodigal son story is probably one of my

‍

favorite stories in the Bible. Absolutely love it. And I've read it probably 500 times. And one

‍

time I read it and I realized that the father never talks to the son. And I'd never heard anybody

‍

mention that. So if you read it. The son asks for his inheritance, and if you haven't read this

‍

story, it's about a son who asks for his inheritance, blows his life up, and still gets

‍

forgiveness. Son asks for his inheritance. Father doesn't say anything, just gives it to him. Son

‍

comes home. Father hugs him and says to the servants, go get the robe, go get the fatted calf,

‍

doesn't talk to the son. And so often as a believer, when God feels quiet, we think he's mad,

‍

he's disappointed, he's frustrated. But what if he's just busy planning your party? He's got you

‍

embraced, and he's busy. planning your party. And that kind of thing, I go, oh, that was a really

‍

fun idea that I feel like I received from a generous God who loves giving ideas.

‍

And so, yeah, for me, writing is a big part of that. But yeah, this is, you know...

‍

It's fun to see the fruit of the work, and it's fun to also see the celebration when things happen.

‍

The other parable I love is the talents where there's five, two, and one given, and then... they

‍

double them and come home and there's a celebration and there's a lot of hangups I had from my

‍

faith background about success. Um, that success was evil. Um, and that,

‍

you know, Jesus rode a donkey, like your, your car should, should be, you should have a terrible

‍

car. You should be, you should live in abject poverty because that's the only way that Jesus loves

‍

you. And so over the years to see that I can be successful and still be generous,

‍

that can be successful and not idolize it, that I can be successful and use my gifts to the full.

‍

extent that I have them, that's been very eye-opening. And of course that fits in with personal

‍

development and goals and numbering my days and having a clear vision and all the things that I

‍

feel like God tells us again and again and again. Well, what's so interesting is everything you

‍

just shared is a little bit of a changing a soundtrack.

‍

Oh yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. I use them in my own, like that's what I don't think people

‍

understand. I'm a very negative person by nature. Like my natural bent is pessimism,

‍

cynicism, sarcasm. And I always say it's because I grew up in Massachusetts and we're wicked cold

‍

people. Like when Noah Kahn said that he's mean because he grew up in New England, the singer

‍

-songwriter, I was like, I get it. it dude so am i um but over time what happened was i learned

‍

that positivity has a better roi than negativity yeah like when i'm positive i have more friends i

‍

feel better physically i'm a better husband i'm a better dad i make more money so now i just

‍

practice positivity and a big part of that practice is soundtracks. We made a soundtracks card deck

‍

because I was carrying cards around in my pocket so much that said the soundtracks I wanted to

‍

remember. I don't want my brain to have to remember to be positive or to remember this.

‍

So like when I plan my week, I plan my soundtracks. I go, hey, I got a tough meeting on Tuesday and

‍

it's going to be easy for me to roll into that meeting with that person as if they're my

‍

competitor. Like I'm frustrated and when I'm frustrated, I make people my competitor. not my

‍

coworkers. So I need a soundtrack on a post-it note that says, Brian and I want the same thing.

‍

Brian's on my side. Brian is not my enemy. And I'll put it by my laptop. Like as I do the Zoom,

‍

because I'm not going to hope I kind of sort of remember, I'm going to have that reminder and I'm

‍

going to practice that repetition. And the meeting is going to go so much better versus me coming

‍

in as like, I've already got my guard up and I'm fighting this person versus like, no, what's true?

‍

What's true is this. Okay, well, let me remind myself of the truth in easy ways. That makes it so

‍

much easier on me. I love that. And again, I'm also hearing in that.

‍

We can't. You could do that. You could almost substitute for Brian, God.

‍

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, yeah. Totally. We could retrain the soundtracks we have spiritually.

‍

Oh, I thought God was a jerk for most of my life. Like most of my life. I was like, he likes,

‍

he loves me, but he doesn't like me. Like he, he loves me at an obligation. Like we have a

‍

contract. He's kind of a jerk. He wants the worst for me. Like, oh my yeah.

‍

Name a bad soundtrack about God. And it's like, and then you add other people's like to the money

‍

thing. I had a musician, I live in Nashville and I had a Christian musician say, if you buy a,

‍

$90,000 Chevy Suburban. People go, good for you. It's a family car. Good for you. If you buy a $90

‍

,000 BMW, they go, hey, the church probably needed that money. Wow. What's it like to worship

‍

Mammon? Same amount of money, different perception. So then of course you go,

‍

oh, well, success must be bad. And I always tell believers, the enemy only wins one of two ways,

‍

when you abuse your gift or you don't use it. And so when you abuse it, you're achieving things

‍

that like, it's not, they're not meant for you. You're hurting people, but not using it as just as

‍

toxic out of a false sense of humility of like, I'm really good at this thing, but I don't want to.

‍

And like, mine is like a big part of my mission is like, let's grab a shovel. I think you buried a

‍

talent. And I think God's way better. Like I saw a guy wearing a shirt once at Costco and it said,

‍

God's in a good mood. And that stopped me in my tracks as like, Oh, I don't. I don't know if I

‍

believe that right now. Like I think he's kind of, kind of grumpy. And so that,

‍

yeah, it's been a long process of that without a doubt. I love it. I have to say on a personal

‍

note, because I love the sort of New England curmudgeonliness. I grew up in Wyoming as we were

‍

talking. And when I first moved out there, even when I went to college, I went to college up in New

‍

Hampshire, in New England, all the way from Wyoming. And I would just walk around smiling and

‍

waving and greeting people by name. And people just kind of like look at me like, you're weird.

‍

They don't want that. Just culturally so. different but over time what i learned is there's also

‍

this um just this uh and again it's sort of a changed soundtrack right of like but gosh if someone

‍

says they're going to show up they show up You know, right. So you don't have as much of the

‍

superficial kind of smiling and let's get together and let's be best friends. Not, you know, but

‍

but you have that real there's it's a different kind of integrity.

‍

So I think that's interesting context for your own story, because who I think most people know you

‍

to be is very positive, very forward looking. But there's that cultural thing that shapes us.

‍

I can't lose it. Like when I'm in New England now, I'm still smiling. And I just it's part of how I

‍

small. you know, Wyoming, you know, everybody by name, everybody's your friend is part of me.

‍

I've had to actually learn a little bit, not to make go negative, but like, oh, you can't trust

‍

everybody. You know, I've had to learn a little bit of healthy skepticism,

‍

not hopefully cynicism, right, but just healthy. And almost in the opposite way,

‍

you know, you've had, you know, some of that stuff is. it's, it creates those soundtracks, right?

‍

You have to just, um, but, but I think that's interesting. It does. Yeah.

‍

You've done it for years. Like that's the other thing is like, give yourself grace. Cause you've

‍

practiced a certain way of thought for 15 years, for 20 years. My situation was the reverse. I grew

‍

up in Massachusetts and then I went to school in Birmingham, Alabama. And nobody, nobody told me

‍

like, Hey bro, that is not the South. That is the deep South. And I loved it.

‍

But that first year was really hard because people would say to me, like, how's it going today? And

‍

I was kind of like, what's it to you? Because in Massachusetts or New England, the stop and shop

‍

cashier doesn't care how your day is. No, she's not going to ask. But like you, what I realized is

‍

in New England, there's a townie. there's a townie loyalty, like your townie friends will be your

‍

townie friends forever. And they'll link arms with you. They'll get through stuff, stuff with you.

‍

So it's not that one is bad or good. It's just, they're so different. And yeah, I, that was a real

‍

like whiplash for me. Um, but again, like the point being, you're really good at the things you

‍

practice. And I'm just saying, I think you can practice something else. So like you can practice

‍

permission, like giving yourself permission to go like, you don't have to like perfectionism. Great

‍

example. I always preach the day after perfect. A perfectionist really needs to be deliberate on

‍

the day after perfect, meaning they had a streak going, and it was amazing, and they missed one

‍

day, and that'll wreck three weeks for a perfectionist. That'll wreck a month because the streak

‍

ended. They start to beat themselves up. They're like, I can't believe I forgot to do blank,

‍

whatever. I'm like, no, the day after perfect is coming. What permission are you going to give

‍

yourself on that day? The permission to start again? The permission to go like, oh, okay. You know,

‍

like back on the horse, like, oh, man, I wonder how long the next street can be like that. That

‍

permission matters for that type of person. And it's OK that you practice the other way a long

‍

time. Let's just practice a different way. I love it. I just think it's so helpful. And where can

‍

my listeners, you know, I think a lot of. A lot of my, you know, it's like, how do we take that

‍

next step? You have so many resources. As I think everybody's heard today, there's just a lot, a

‍

wealth of wisdom, of practicality, of spiritual anchoring. Where can people find you?

‍

And what kinds of things? I love the quiz sounded really interesting. Where can people find you and

‍

get connected with what you're doing? Yeah, so the quiz is just joanacop.com slash quiz.

‍

It's a free, super easy quiz. I have a podcast called All It Takes a Goal. The thing I'm really

‍

passionate about right now, too, is we're doing small, intensive events in our office. We have a

‍

beautiful office now in downtown Franklin for people who want to be speakers and writers. Because

‍

for years, people have said, hey, I want to figure out how to do that. I want to do that more. So

‍

we've got small events we do around that. And then, yeah, the new book is Procrastination Proof.

‍

It's out everywhere books are sold. and I read the audio book and there's tons of bonus content in

‍

it. So yeah. And then LinkedIn, I mean, everywhere that there's other than like Etsy, I'm not on

‍

Etsy. I'm not doing anything on Pinterest right now, but other than those two things, if you type

‍

in John Acuff, I'm probably doing something. Well, this is fun. Thank you so much for doing this.

‍

Thanks. having me thank you for joining me for this week's episode of the best of you it would mean

‍

so much if you take a moment to subscribe you can go to apple spotify youtube or wherever you

‍

listen to or watch podcasts and click the plus or follow button that'll ensure you don't miss an

‍

episode and it helps get the word out to others while you're there i'd love it if you leave a five

‍

-star review And be sure to join us each weekday for the best of you every day, a brief daily

‍

reflection to help you start your mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become

‍

the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

‍

‍

Episode Show Notes

What if the health of your relationship is shaping more of your life than you realize?

We spend so much time focusing on our individual growth—our healing, our self-awareness, our inner work. But at some point, that work has to find its way into our closest relationships.

And that’s where things often get complicated.

In this episode, Dr. Alison is joined by Dr. James Cordova to explore what it actually looks like to build and sustain healthy, connected relationships over time—and why it’s so much harder than we expect.

Because the truth is, relationships aren’t neutral.

They’re either strengthening and supporting your overall well-being…
or quietly eroding it.

If you’ve ever felt close to someone you love… and also strangely disconnected, this conversation will help you understand why.

You’ll explore:

• Why relationships are more foundational to your health than you might think
• What actually happens as intimacy shifts over time—and why it’s not a sign something is wrong
• The “porcupine dilemma” and why closeness and hurt often go hand in hand
• How small, everyday moments either build or erode connection
• What it means to respond to bids for connection—and why they matter more than you realize
• How mindfulness and presence shape the quality of your relationships
• What to do when you feel stuck, disconnected, or like you’re the only one trying

This conversation offers a compassionate and practical reframe:
Healthy relationships aren’t about avoiding conflict or getting it right all the time.

They’re about learning how to stay present, stay curious, and stay connected—even when it’s hard.

‍

More Resources:

‍

Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram

Read Dr. James Cordova’s book: The Mindful Path to Intimacy: Cultivating a Deeper Connectin With Your Partner

Check out Dr. James Cordova’s book: The Mindful Path to Intimacy: Cultivating a Deeper Connection With Your Partner

Get a relationship check-up at https://arammu.com/

Want to go deeper? Join 80,000+ soul menders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices here. 

Want to hear more like this? Start here:

Episode 115: 4 Ways to Transform Your Relationship—Expert Tips to Heal Pain Points and Deepen Intimacy

Episode 148: Dan Allendar on Healing, Intimacy, and Hard Fights

Episode 137: The Mindful Marriage with Ron and Nan Deal

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here

‍

Don't forget to browse this week's sponsors, who make it possible for me to bring you these resources for free + provide you with additional discounts!

• Quince - How you dress affects your mood and you can trust that Quince has you covered in every day sustainable wardrobe staples. Go to ⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
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*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

‍

TRANSCRIPT

The quality of your relationship is either helping, it's either the rising tide that raises all

‍

health boats, or it's hurting. It is never neutral. At the heart of mindfulness.

‍

is this idea that attention is the most basic form of love. And whatever we're paying attention to

‍

is the thing that we are nurturing. You're busy doing your thing and I walk in and I'm like, hey, I

‍

was thinking about this thing. That's a bid. Hey, let's be here together in this moment. And when

‍

you can show up in that moment with me, then that waters those seeds of connection.

‍

The challenge is that if most of the time when I show up in bid, you either ignore me or you get

‍

mad at me because I'm interrupting you, then I stop doing it.

‍

Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of The Best of You. I am so glad

‍

you're here today because this is a conversation I am so excited to share with you. I hope you'll

‍

send it to your spouse, text it to someone you love, listen to it together on a drive. Because what

‍

we're talking about today isn't just for you, it's for both of you. We spend so much energy and

‍

time working on ourselves, our own healing, our growth, our inner life. And this is all good and

‍

important and necessary. But at some point, all of this inner work has to find its way into our

‍

closest relationships. And this is exactly where today's conversation is going. My guest is Dr.

‍

James Cordova. He's a clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at Clark University,

‍

where he directs the Center for Couples and Family Research. For decades, James has dedicated his

‍

work to one of the most important and most neglected areas of human health, the health of our

‍

intimate relationships. And what he's discovered and what I think will genuinely shift something in

‍

you, I know it has for me, is that the quality of our relationships is never...

‍

neutral. It's either the rising tide, as James says, that lifts every other area of our lives,

‍

or it is quietly pulling asunder. There is rarely an in-between. I hear from so many of you about

‍

how to apply this work into your most intimate relationships. And James is the author of a

‍

fantastic book. It's called The Mindful Path to Intimacy. How to stay connected through the

‍

challenges of life. It's a really practical book that brings together mindfulness and relationship

‍

science in a way that is accessible to all of us, to anyone who is trying to love someone well over

‍

the long haul. And here's what I love about the way James thinks. He doesn't believe that

‍

struggling in your relationship means something is wrong with you or your partner. He believes,

‍

and I think he'll convince you of this today, that intimate relationships are inherently,

‍

unavoidably challenging. That we are all... every single one of us, what he calls porcupines.

‍

I related to this so much when he shared this. We are soft and warm and desperately wanting

‍

connection, but we are also covered in quills that we mostly don't mean to use,

‍

but often do. And so the question isn't whether we'll hurt each other. We will.

‍

The question is whether we have the skills, the awareness, and the support to stay close to each

‍

other anyway. We talked today about what healthy relationships actually look like,

‍

why mindfulness is one of the most powerful tools we have for intimacy. We talk about the small

‍

everyday moments that can either build or erode our connection over time and what to do when we're

‍

stuck, when the DIY approach just isn't enough and we need a little outside support. This is one of

‍

those conversations that I found myself nodding along to from start to finish. It just struck as so

‍

profoundly wise about the reality. of the both and of relational intimacy. We need it.

‍

It's how God designed us. It's beautiful. And it's also incredibly challenging.

‍

So I hope you'll listen in and grab your person if that would be helpful to you, or at least plan

‍

to pass this one along. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. James Cordova.

‍

James, I'm so thrilled to... this conversation, so many of the questions I get from listeners are

‍

around relationships. And as we were talking before we started recording, a lot of my audience has

‍

a built-in understanding of the value of marriage, of being partnered,

‍

of loyalty, and yet intimacy. And connectedness is in many ways a much different thing.

‍

From your perspective, what is a healthy relationship?

‍

Why are relationships so important and what are they forming in us over time?

‍

Ah, such a good question. You know, part of what we are really focused on in the work that I do is

‍

the significant. impact that our relationships have,

‍

not just on our day-to-day happiness and general sort of psychological well-being,

‍

but the important impact, the measurable impact that the quality of our relationships have on our

‍

physical health, on all the dimensions of our mental health, on the outcomes for our children.

‍

You know, we tend to Even when we really value it, we tend to think about relationships in terms of

‍

it's almost like they're the icing on the cake. Right. Like if you've got a satisfying,

‍

happy making, intimate relationship, like that's the cherry on top. Yeah. But it's not necessarily

‍

like we don't tend to think about it as a significant part of our overall health system.

‍

We don't treat it like we treat with the same. with the same seriousness in some ways that we treat

‍

our physical health, even our dental health, right? And so one of the things that I really am

‍

intent on emphasizing in my work is the quality of your relationship is either helping,

‍

it's either the rising tide that raises all health boats, or it's hurting. It is never neutral.

‍

Oh, that is so good. That dental analogy, immediately, I just thought,

‍

right. And we regularly check in on our dental health and maintain it and take for granted when our

‍

teeth are working well. But man, when they're not, it's painful. Right, right. Exactly.

‍

In the state of what I'm now calling relationship health care, the state of relationship health

‍

care at the moment is either do it yourself. DIY or emergency medicine,

‍

you know, where like it's couples therapy after a relationship,

‍

a marriage has been suffering for years or, you know, good luck out there,

‍

you know, do your best on your own. And, and what we are, what we're discovering is that,

‍

and what we all sort of know from our own experience, right. Is that intimate relationship that.

‍

close emotional mental physical proximity is by its nature extraordinarily challenging and and so

‍

to go to the dental analogy again like if taking care of our dental health was entirely up to us

‍

and the only access we had to dentists was after our teeth had been hurt for a while you know we

‍

wouldn't have so many teeth yes uh and and leaving our relationship health entirely in that diy

‍

column i think is a significant part of why the the you know for decades now regardless of what

‍

we've done and tried the divorce rate hovers around 50%.

‍

Yep. Because we don't have a way of thinking about relationship healthcare as something that we can

‍

seek skilled professional help on.

‍

in that sort of regular proactive way that we do with our physical health and our dental health and

‍

honestly nowadays even with our mental health yes that is such a revel i love that relational

‍

health care and i'm hearing a couple things in what you're saying one we need these intimate

‍

relationships they're not fringe they're not side notes they're foundational i think i hear you

‍

saying just as our physical health is but we have no skills no training and no mechanism to

‍

maintain them because they are complicated I heard you say they are inherently challenging. It's

‍

really interesting. The skills,

‍

the attitudes, the ways of being in the world that are really beneficial to long-term relationship

‍

health, we don't come by them naturally. Yeah. Right?

‍

Interesting. And we don't learn them in school, for sure. Right.

‍

And so we're all just sort of entering into this really complex human experience.

‍

You know, with whatever we learned on the street corner, you know, like just just doing our best.

‍

Right. So it's a little bit like having never, you know, lifted the hood of a car before.

‍

Yeah. We're just like, I can probably figure this out.

‍

That is, and then I want to take us to the beginning. And also, so often we're doing this when

‍

we're still pretty young and hardly formed ourselves, right? So I'm thinking of folks I know and

‍

all the weddings I was in at 25, 26, 27. I didn't get married till later.

‍

And in some ways, I've thought about that as a huge advantage in the sense of just knowing myself a

‍

little better and my husband knowing himself a little better. But that's not always the case. But

‍

especially if we add him. You're young. You fall in love. You don't even know yourself very well

‍

yet. And then you've entered into this bond with this other person. So talk to us a little bit

‍

about that lifespan. You know, if we're thinking about intimacy, when we first connect, it can feel

‍

effortless. It can feel like, oh, I can handle this car. You know, this is easy.

‍

It's easy to drive. It's fun. There's no issues. It's brand new. You know, we don't have any miles

‍

on it. So it's driving great, you know. Three thousand miles. They're amazing.

‍

So so what's happening in that phase? Why is it important and what inevitably shifts?

‍

I think, you know, the way that I think about long term intimate relationships is that that sense

‍

of deep connection, that sense of warmth and and and love and affection and acceptance and and.

‍

just comfort, you know, is rooted in our shared vulnerability and how we care for each other,

‍

you know, how we care for each other's vulnerability. We are, by our nature, vulnerable.

‍

And in an intimate relationship, you know, you're the person that I'm most vulnerable to.

‍

And so when we first form our relationships, you know, we are putting our best foot forward.

‍

Yeah. Right. We are on our best behavior. Right. And oftentimes in those first few moments

‍

together, those first few meetings, what we're experiencing is somebody who seems to like us.

‍

Yeah. Somebody who's into us just for who we are. Yeah. Right.

‍

That first blush in the relationship feels like, oh, I think I finally maybe found somebody who's

‍

going to like me just the way that I am. And there's an incredible, we call it intimate safety.

‍

There's an incredible blossoming of this sense of opening, right? That,

‍

oh, I can be myself. Yes. This person thinks I'm funny. They think I'm good looking.

‍

They want to hang out with me. Yeah. Right. And that is such a heady and intoxicating moment for

‍

both people to just fall into that experience of feeling treasured just for who they are.

‍

And then because vulnerability never becomes invulnerability,

‍

it starts to get complicated relatively quickly. Interesting. The metaphor that I've been loving

‍

recently in this spot is called the porcupine's dilemma. And the story of the porcupine's dilemma

‍

is like, we're all porcupines. You're a porcupine. I'm a porcupine. Our partners are porcupines.

‍

Everybody out there that is a human being is a porcupine. Which is this really interesting animal,

‍

right? We're mammals. We got this nice soft sort of fuzzy underbelly. You know,

‍

we like to be close. You know, we need to be physically close to each other. And we're covered in

‍

quilts. Yes! Oh, that's so good! Right?

‍

So when you get close enough to feel the warmth.

‍

You're also inside of quills distance by necessity. And so we are going to both experience all the

‍

warm fuzzies of being close. And we're both going to quill each other, mostly by accident,

‍

on a relatively regular basis. That is the dilemma, right?

‍

Because by our nature, when we're hurt, right? Like if I catch a quill...

‍

if and mostly like it's almost always true, like you didn't mean it. Right. But whatever,

‍

you were in a grumpy mood or I was in a grumpy mood or or, you know,

‍

I'm tired, I'm hangry. Right. Whatever it is, you know, like like you accidentally catch a quill.

‍

Our natural reaction comes out of our ancient past. Right. Like like we we were,

‍

you know, when we're hurt, we respond with either fight or flight. Yeah. And and that was,

‍

you know, in our in our in our history as a species. Right.

‍

That was in the service of not getting eaten by bears. Yes. Yes.

‍

Very functional. So, yeah, very functional out in the world of lions and tigers and bears and

‍

enemies and, you know, disaster. But it, you know. It's so not functional.

‍

It's like anti-functional in an intimate relationship, right? If you quill me and I respond with

‍

fight and quill you back, now we're both hurt, right? And now both of us feel a little less safe

‍

being our vulnerable, authentic selves with each other. If you quill me and I flight,

‍

right? Like I pull back into stone cold silence. Right. Or I like, you know, turn my back on you or

‍

just get, you know, just get quiet, you know, and withdraw. Then then, you know,

‍

in a way it's its own quill. Right. So now, you know, now I'm turning away and and and missing that

‍

connection and that warmth. And and again, neither one of us are are feeling.

‍

as safe or as connected with that vulnerability. And my worry is that like,

‍

I'm going to go back to the analogy, like if we aren't going to the dentist on a relatively regular

‍

basis to get the plaque that grows up that we can't get at with a DIY approach removed,

‍

then you're going to have trouble. You're just going to lose teeth.

‍

And most people, most of us, I would say it's quite common,

‍

extraordinarily common, that we respond to the dilemma of being porcupines by pulling just outside

‍

of Quill's distance. So that we're close, but we're not too close.

‍

Right. Like I'm trying to live with you. I'm trying to raise children with you. I'm trying to pay

‍

bills with you. I'm trying to have a life with you. But I'm trying to also not get hurt by you and

‍

not hurt you. And I've just just by living sort of discovered that I have to maintain a certain

‍

amount of distance from you in order to do that. And so we're in these long term family loving

‍

relationships, but we're lonely. Because we haven't been, we haven't acquired the skills to stay

‍

inside of Quill's distance, to even move inside of Quill's distance on a regular basis,

‍

right? We're trying to keep ourselves and each other safe by staying in this place that feels safe

‍

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Wow, that is such a powerful way to understand sort of that ongoing challenge of living with

‍

another porcupine. I think that is such a valuable metaphor. It's just we I am one and you are one.

‍

And this is just our reality. How do we navigate it? So this brings me to your work in particular

‍

focuses on mindfulness.

‍

which is something we often think of as an individual practice. We had on the podcast for my

‍

listeners, you'll remember Jud Brewer, who is an expert on mindfulness out of Brown University, our

‍

neighbor down the road, who kind of talked about it from a, you know, more of that traditional

‍

sense of being in the moment, paying attention. How do you see it as one of the essential tools of

‍

relational intimacy?

‍

The the at the heart of mindfulness is this idea that attention is the most basic form of love.

‍

Attention is the most basic form of love. And whatever we're paying attention to is the thing that

‍

we are nurturing. Yes. And and for most of us, we are.

‍

Let's say they're plants that we're watering, seeds that we're watering. And for most of us, most

‍

of the time, the seeds that we're watering with our loving attention are seeds of like anxiety

‍

about the future or regrets about the past, right?

‍

Or just, you know, worries, fears, resentments that we're carrying,

‍

right? And what we are missing. is the opportunity to really nurture and be nurtured by the

‍

vividness of our life in the present moment, right? By the gift that is what is here right now.

‍

Wow. That, you know, one of the ways that I've begun to think about this is I'm always struck by

‍

this. quote from Meister Eckhart, who is this Christian mystic.

‍

He says, if the only prayer you say in your entire life is thank you, that will be sufficient.

‍

Like that will suffice, right? And the thank you for what is arising and being created in the

‍

moment is what we are cultivating with the practice of really just...

‍

very deliberately anchoring our attention, practicing bringing this loving attention to the present

‍

moment. And that's obviously inclusive of these ought to be treasured moments between ourselves and

‍

others. Interesting. And so... talk about these small,

‍

everyday interactions. Is that kind of what you're getting at? So when I was listening, I was

‍

thinking about if I'm kind of stressed out about something or worried in the future,

‍

I'm not present. So I am stressed out, but I'm not really present to,

‍

oh, I'm tired right now or I'm stressed right now. I if if say my spouse comes in and interrupts me

‍

and I'm frantic and I'm in that kind of adrenalized like I got to just get things done because I

‍

got too much going on and I'm worried I might kind of snap at him for not understanding hey don't

‍

interrupt me right now which is a porcupine quill versus and so it seems as if mindfulness both is

‍

is it's a two-part process it's I have to be present enough to go I'm anxious so then if he comes

‍

into my space my my attentiveness both to my own self a lot of what we talk about my backgrounds in

‍

parts work so if i'm attentive so for my listeners right this is where the parts work comes into

‍

the intimacy right if i'm attentive and can be present to i'm anxious in this moment if my spouse

‍

comes in i can receive that as i can then be present to him And maybe even invite him into that

‍

with me. I'm anxious. Thank you for I'm kind of just thinking, like,

‍

how does this it's like when I'm in when I'm all tied up inside, often that's when I quill,

‍

basically, is what I'm trying to say. Exactly. Regardless of what my spouse does, it might be he's

‍

trying to do something nice. It might just be that he needs something. Right. And mindfulness

‍

enters into that as I'm both present to myself and present to something that he's trying to offer

‍

in that moment.

‍

Am I kind of making sense of that? Exactly. And this is the most powerful gift that we can give to

‍

ourselves and each other is our presence. Yeah. And what you're highlighting is that we're often

‍

not present. You know, we're often so caught up in what's going on inside our own experience,

‍

inside our own mind. And again, that's often about things that aren't actually happening right now.

‍

Things that aren't actually fully present, right? And the way that we nurture our connection is

‍

with that presence and that attentiveness, that loving attentiveness to each other.

‍

So you probably... heard about and even talked about on on your podcast about this idea of

‍

responding to bids yes right yes i love the bids which is which is that's what it is you know like

‍

when when you know in the moment you know like you're busy like you're saying you're busy doing

‍

your thing and i walk in and i'm like hey i was thinking about this thing and that's a bid for like

‍

hey let's be here together in this moment And when you can show up in that moment with me,

‍

then that waters those seeds of connection. And that's that's essential for the long term health of

‍

our relationship. The challenge is that, like, if most of the time when I show up in bid.

‍

you either ignore me or you get mad at me because I'm interrupting you, then I stop doing it,

‍

right? I start to go do something else with my time because it's a quill, right? Like, oh, that

‍

sort of stung. And so I'm going to do a little bit of a flight thing by moving away. And that can

‍

calcify, right? So that I just don't bid. And I'm not even maybe even consciously aware that I'm

‍

not doing it anymore. You know, it's just that something has grown up in that space between us.

‍

And now it's like plaque, right? That we're not really able to remove ourselves sometimes.

‍

That's so good. And that bid could be tiny. It could be as simple as your spouse or your

‍

significant person entering the room and asking something insignificant.

‍

But I love how you say that. That is a bid for attentiveness and inviting you into that present

‍

moment. So I'm sure you get this question all the time.

‍

Sure.

‍

I have to ask because I can hear in my listener, I sometimes get, this is the email I get. I'm

‍

trying to work through my own kind of quilling, my own triggers.

‍

But maybe my partner isn't either also doing that,

‍

right? Maybe they're not as aware. They're not as able to connect.

‍

Which is, you know, how do we what do we do when that feels like there's a mismatch in my growth in

‍

trying to be more present and trying to notice those bids? But then my partner maybe just takes

‍

that noticing and runs with it and doesn't also offer me the same in return. I'm not sure if I'm

‍

asking that well. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's such a common.

‍

It's such a common experience that we have, right? Like, I feel like I'm trying, you know,

‍

I'm giving attention, I'm giving generosity, I'm giving love, I'm giving kindness.

‍

And I feel like I'm trying, right? And my partner's not responding in the way that I wish they

‍

would.

‍

You know, the place that I sort of always want us to start is in recognizing that you know,

‍

we're all kind of doing our best here, right? You know, that we can,

‍

you know, the answer is a kind of like love them anyway, right?

‍

And, you know, for me, one of the things that's often true that I attend to when I'm working with

‍

couples is that partner that's a little bit quieter, that partner that's a little more turned away,

‍

that partner that has in some ways, just fewer relationship skills,

‍

fewer relationship behaviors, like that, that came to them relatively naturally,

‍

right? Like a lot of us are actually, you know, like vulnerability is vulnerable for all of us,

‍

but a lot of us are especially punished for doing the things that reveal ourselves as vulnerable

‍

for doing the things that are, um, connecting and risky in a relationship and and it can seem on

‍

the on the surface of it like a hardness or a coldness but it's actually a protective layer and if

‍

we can uh like see through that protective layer to to touch what's on the other side to really

‍

treat that person as though we know that they're vulnerable, we know that they are suffering,

‍

we know that they need love and care, we make it safe for them to express their authentic selves

‍

with us, then that will grow. So let me give you an example.

‍

It is not uncommon for me when I'm working with a couple, you know, they'll come in and and,

‍

you know, the wife will often be like, OK, so let me tell you what's going on. You know, these are

‍

our problems X, Y and Z. And these are the ways in which, you know, like he's misbehaving and I

‍

wish that he would be better. And then I turn to him and say, so tell me a little bit from your

‍

perspective about, you know, what's bringing you to couples therapy. And he'll say, well, I guess

‍

mostly just what she said. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like, like, I guess I'm just here to get yelled at by

‍

the principal. Right. And, and when I can respond with empathy for what it's like to like,

‍

I mean, I can imagine that it's challenging to feel like. I'm doing my best in this relationship.

‍

She seems really unhappy. I'm not sure what I can do to make her happy.

‍

I feel like I'm a good husband and I know she's asking something of me,

‍

but I can't quite seem to make her happy. And I just feel like I love her and I want to feel

‍

connected to her, but I feel stuck. And like, I just wish I was receiving more.

‍

affection and affirmation and admiration and i just don't know how to get back there does that seem

‍

like part of what you're experiencing and then you know this sort of like emergence of yes that's

‍

exactly what it's like and i said well tell me a little bit more about that and then he goes on for

‍

minutes and then to have the wife toward towards him and turn towards me and say that's the most

‍

he's said in the last 17 years that we've been married right and it's like it's not magic it's

‍

empathy it's caring it's compassion right you know it's not well i'm upset with you and so i'm just

‍

going to try to get something soft out of you by quilling you right it's you get to be you like

‍

tell me what it's like to be you let me be curious about you and not meet that with argument,

‍

but meet that with, I get it. And when we feel like, oh,

‍

it's safe for me to be angry, right? It's safe for me to feel resentment. It's safe for me to feel

‍

like it's not fair. And that still gets met with like care.

‍

Then we really open up.

‍

Yeah, it's so good. We don't create softness through quilling. Right.

‍

Even though it makes sense. Because I want something, so I'm trying to get it. Yeah, exactly.

‍

And I think it goes both ways because I can imagine in that same moment, then the other spouse

‍

could be heard in, I just feel like I'm carrying. We talk about the mental load with women.

‍

I just feel like I'm carrying so much. And it's not even that I...

‍

i just need someone to see that you know it's oftentimes then you can see that kind of come out

‍

it's like i don't mean to come at you with it but and and i think this is where james i'm curious

‍

your thoughts on this where we we we can't want our and i and i want to be clear i guess that we're

‍

not talking here about extremes of pathology where there's no no narcissism where there's abuse you

‍

know this is not what we're talking about we're talking in the realm of two people who are doing

‍

their best is that fair to say yeah yeah absolutely so it within that it's often not that i so

‍

often i'll speak for myself i want something from my spouse that in fact what i really want is just

‍

that primal attachment i want to be seen i want to be heard i want to be and and i get that we're

‍

different people and yeah when my better self comes on i'm like i'm so glad because we have

‍

different skill sets right i sure i am so grateful i did not marry another therapist right that is

‍

a good thing there are things he offers me that i do not so just in my own case and and so there

‍

are things that i I think all of us, whatever our dynamic is, there are different skill sets and

‍

different strengths. And when we get overwhelmed, it's like, I just want something I don't even

‍

know what. And that's kind of why we're quilling. Yep. And I kind of hear you saying the whole

‍

trick is to get underneath that and just see each other for how we each are in that moment.

‍

Right, right. And to stay, to be able to breathe. into it to breathe through it to stay present

‍

even when it's hard when it's uncomfortable when the when the thing that you're telling me i don't

‍

really like the thing that you're sharing with me i wish you weren't sharing this with me right

‍

yeah right but i'm gonna stay and that's one of the key for me that's one of the key gifts of a

‍

contemplative practice that's one of the key gifts of of mindfulness contemplative prayer however

‍

we practice Being fully present in the moment, regardless of what's going on with us,

‍

because it helps to create this this resilience, this this this sort of like courage or,

‍

you know, benefit that I know I can feel these feelings.

‍

I can feel uncomfortable. I can feel upset. Like I can feel the quill and not respond with

‍

reactivity, not respond with fighting, not responding with flight. But I can just feel it.

‍

I can host it with grace. And that doesn't come to us naturally.

‍

That capacity to be present with. discomfort without becoming destructively reactive takes practice

‍

it and it takes that kind of i can just be here with it practice wow and and we don't give

‍

ourselves a lot of opportunity to do that to just like you know sometimes in my own practice the

‍

most the most like productive uh practices that I've had have been just when I'm sitting down with

‍

like, this sucks and I'm just going to sit here and be with it. Wow.

‍

And after a few minutes of just allowing it to feel the way that it feels, something softens,

‍

something opens up and a greater, it's a greater kind of like kind maturity that I think takes

‍

root. Wow. Yeah, this is where the parts framework is really helpful to me. It's like a part of me

‍

is like, I don't need to hear this story again. But another part of me can come online and say,

‍

but I love this person and I'm going to stay present. Right. And when you said take a breath,

‍

right, that's that's the it's the both things can be true. And I can I can honor both.

‍

I don't have to both can be true in this moment and I can be present in a different way.

‍

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that and that is that is the allowing.

‍

I love that. It's the allowing for more than one thing is happening. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like like

‍

something's going on between us that feels a little hard. Yeah. And and there's a part of me that

‍

wants to fight back. There's a part of me that wants to defend myself. There's a part of me that

‍

wants to shut down and run away. All of that gets to just be there. Yeah.

‍

simultaneously, I know that the best thing I can do for myself and for my partner is to stay kindly

‍

present and to just offer my attention and my sort of compassionate curiosity.

‍

What I often, the mantra that I often teach to my couples is just tell me more.

‍

So so this thing happened at work. Tell me more. There's this thing that you're doing that's

‍

driving me crazy. Tell me more. Right. You know, like, oh, there's this thing about you that I love

‍

you that I love about you. Tell me more. Right. Like, just tell me more about what it's like to be

‍

you. And when we feel like somebody cares to know, that's the greatest gift.

‍

Not fix, not not make better. Just be with. Yeah.

‍

Yeah. One, I feel like we might need to have a part two because I want to honor your time because

‍

I'm going to throw out a question here at the end that really is a toll episode. So what about when

‍

I love this and I know for my own work that this is truly does lead to to change and growth.

‍

It's not you're not saying and I want the listener to hear this. This isn't saying just just.

‍

deny your own needs or just take care of this other person. It's much deeper than that.

‍

It's deeply formational. And you're great with metaphors, but in my mind,

‍

it sort of creates an environment where this other person may also feel that shift.

‍

And we just know that quilling doesn't create change. So trying curiosity,

‍

trying presence. And then that does lead me to

‍

What if there still is that rupture? What if that other person, there does need to be a change.

‍

There comes a point where I do need to say, hey, you're not listening to me. Or I'm still feeling

‍

like this thing you're doing. And I know this is a different skill, is my guess. Sure.

‍

But can you touch on those moments when we do need to have a confrontation or we do have a rupture

‍

and we need to address it?

‍

You know, again, there's these two there's these two domains. One is how much of this can I do

‍

myself? How much how much is it? How much of this can I address in that DIY way?

‍

Yeah. And and sometimes we can. Right. With the right attitude,

‍

with enough, you know, grace and forbearance and and forgiveness and,

‍

you know. relationship mindedness right we can we can call out to our partner and invite them you

‍

know from the place of our own yearning right it's not like you're doing it's not like you're being

‍

bad you're not a bad person I'm yearning for something and I'm inviting you to like care about that

‍

and I know that you're yearning yearning for something for me and I want you to tell me what that

‍

is so that I can care about that as well that that we can practice in our relationships and then

‍

there's this other domain which is like nobody can be their own dentist Right. You know, sometimes

‍

it's and I would say for all of us, there are going to be those moments when we just need a little

‍

help from somebody who's spent their lives specializing in helping couples move past places of

‍

stuckness in a relationship. Right. And with, you know, you know, my whole career has been trying

‍

to find ways to lower the shame, the embarrassment, the expense.

‍

the time commitment, all of the barriers to just like get, even if it's just little bits of

‍

professional care on a relatively regular basis, right? Because we can't, we,

‍

I mean, again, just look at the divorce rates. We clearly can't do it all on our own. That's just

‍

the divorce rate. And then the percentage of couples that are unhappily married,

‍

but still together is also like. We say like at any one point in time,

‍

20% of all marriages are significantly distressed. So one in five, like that's an epidemic.

‍

And, you know, even. So for example, the thing that I specialize in,

‍

which are these regular relationship checkups, even just one session, one or two sessions is often

‍

for couples. That's all we needed. We just needed somebody to help massage out this one stuck spot

‍

for us. You know, not everybody needs sessions and sessions and sessions and sessions of couples

‍

therapy. Some people do, but most of us just need somebody who's got an outside perspective and who

‍

specializes in working with couples to spend an hour with us. That is profound.

‍

I really appreciate your sharing this hard-earned wisdom with my community because I do think it

‍

can feel so overwhelming. And I, again, just going back to the car, you know,

‍

sometimes you need an oil change. Sometimes you need to take out the transmission, but both require

‍

a little maintenance. And I just, I really appreciate,

‍

I think it's, I just kind of, Clinician to clinician, I almost only work with individuals because I

‍

think couples work is challenging because of everything you're saying. Most of us providers are

‍

scared to death of couples therapy. Yes. And I really respect and I'm grateful for,

‍

it's so important as to your point, this is a huge, we are not created and designed to be alone.

‍

Right. We are, there's something inherently. beautiful about intimacy and togetherness and in all

‍

of God's creatures. It's really fascinating. So tell my listeners where they can find more about

‍

your work, your book, and what you provide. Absolutely. So the easiest place to get a hold of me

‍

and the folks that I work with is at our website, which is aramu.com,

‍

A-R-A-M-M-U.com. Aramu is... As far as we can tell from our Google searches,

‍

ancient Sumerian for love. And Aramu is a spot that we are,

‍

that's where it's a relationship healthcare clinic. And it's also a spot where we train providers

‍

to both provide regular relationship checkups and do couples therapy.

‍

So we train providers and we provide. relationship health care to couples. That's amazing.

‍

Well, we will link to all of that in the show notes. So grateful for your time and your wisdom and

‍

just sending, you know, so much, so many blessings to you and your important work. Really grateful.

‍

Thank you so much, Allison. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you for joining me for this week's

‍

episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to

‍

Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to or watch podcasts and click the plus or follow

‍

button. That'll ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others. While

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you're there, I'd love it if you leave a five-star review. And be sure to join us each weekday for

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the best of you every day, a brief daily reflection to help you start your mornings with a steady

‍

dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others,

‍

and you stay true to your God-given self.

‍

Episode Show Notes

What if love doesn’t wait until you’re ready… but meets you right in the middle of the mess?

This week, as part of the Holy Week series on The Best of You Every Day, Dr. Alison offers a deeper dive into one of the most intimate and unsettling moments in the story of Jesus—the night before everything changes.

At the table, surrounded by people who will betray, deny, and abandon him, Jesus doesn’t withdraw. He doesn’t wait for clarity or understanding. He offers himself anyway.

If you’ve ever struggled to receive love… especially after being hurt, this episode will help you understand why.

Let’s explore:

• Why does love sometimes feel hard to receive when you need it most?
• Why do you find yourself pulling back, shutting down, or questioning love?
• What’s the difference between protecting yourself… and closing yourself off?
• Why doesn’t healing always feel comfortable in the moment?
• What does it actually look like to take one small step toward receiving love?

This conversation offers a gentle, faith-rooted invitation to slow down this Holy Week—to sit in the tension, the confusion, and the not-yet—and to begin receiving love right where you are, even if it feels unfamiliar, imperfect, or hard to trust.

‍

More Resources:

‍

Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram

Want to go deeper? Join 80,000+ soul menders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices here. 

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here

‍

Don't forget to browse this week's sponsors, who make it possible for me to bring you these resources for free + provide you with additional discounts!

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‍

TRANSCRIPT

When you're sitting there after heartbreak, after the end of a marriage, after the loss of a hope,

‍

the loss of a dream, what are you really believing about yourself in that moment? Heartbreak has a

‍

way of revealing the toughest, nastiest things that we think about ourselves. And until we can tap

‍

into that and confront that and begin to work on changing that, as soon as we become aware of

‍

things, that's the only place we can start to kind of dust them off and begin to work with them.

‍

Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I'm so glad

‍

you're here with me for today's deep dive conversation. This is for anyone who's ever known the

‍

ache of heartbreak, rejection, or disappointment, and especially for those of us who know what it

‍

is to take these experiences deeply into our bodies and our stories. I want to begin today with

‍

this simple, beautiful reminder from Psalm 34, 18, the Lord. is near to the brokenhearted and saves

‍

the crushed in spirit. I love this verse because it doesn't rush us past pain.

‍

It doesn't minimize heartbreak or ask us to tidy it up too quickly. It simply reminds us that when

‍

our hearts are broken, when we feel crushed in spirit, God comes near.

‍

Maybe you've had a relationship end and found yourself not only grieving the loss, but also

‍

wrestling with that deeper question underneath it all. What does this say about me? Maybe you've

‍

been betrayed, overlooked, misunderstood, or left holding a pain that seems to reach far beyond the

‍

moment itself. And maybe if you're honest, you've found yourself carrying not just the sadness,

‍

but even shame. Maybe self-blame. confusion, that sense that something painful out there has

‍

somehow turned inward on yourself. If that resonates, I think today's episode is going to meet you

‍

in a really powerful way. My guest today is Dr. Pisa Mahdi, and this conversation was so rich

‍

because she brings both her incredible professional wisdom and a deeply personal honesty to the

‍

subject of healing. Dr. Pisa Mahdi is a psychology professor, speaker, coach,

‍

and mental health expert. She's the author of numerous books, including her brand new book.

‍

It's called The Wholehearted Way, Finding Peace After Life's Heartbreaks, Disappointments,

‍

and Rejections. And it is exactly that kind of book, one that helps us understand why rejection

‍

cuts so deep, how old wounds can shape the stories we tell ourselves, and how healing begins not by

‍

pretending the pain isn't right. but by letting it reveal what's been living underneath the surface

‍

all along. What I really appreciate about Dr. Peace is that she writes and speaks from that rare

‍

place where clinical insight, faith, and her lived experience all meet. She understands that

‍

heartbreak is never just about what happened right now. It's also about where heartbreak has

‍

touched us in the past. The beliefs it exposes, the old wounds it often awakens.

‍

The parts of us that begin to wonder, am I too much? Am I not enough? Am I somehow the reason this

‍

happened? And in today's conversation, that's where we're headed. We're going to talk about

‍

rejection wounds, shame, self-blame, nervous system responses, and the way heartbreak can

‍

sometimes become an opening into deeper healing all the way back to the past. We also talk about

‍

faith, what happens when pain doesn't just shake your trust in other people, but begins to shake

‍

your trust in God. And Dr. Peace offers such a grounded, compassionate vision of healing.

‍

She's so real. I loved this conversation. She doesn't give us a neat and tidy formula or a forced

‍

kind of happy ending, but she wants us to learn to hold the truth of our pain alongside the

‍

possibility and the hope of peace and healing and even more goodness. I know so many of you will

‍

feel seen by this conversation as I did. So whether you are in the middle of a heartbreak of your

‍

own, whether you're trying to make sense of an old wound that still gets touched, or whether you're

‍

simply longing for a more compassionate and whole way of walking through disappointment, I'm so

‍

glad you are here with me today. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr.

‍

Peace Amadi.

‍

Well, I'm thrilled you're here. And I would love for you to open this conversation in the way that

‍

you open this beautiful new book, The Wholehearted Way. I love the title, by the way. I want to get

‍

into how you landed on that. We have so many overlaps in our interests, and you're just bringing

‍

such a beautiful lens to this conversation. You start the book with a pretty vulnerable story about

‍

sitting on a plane after experiencing betrayal. Would you tell us about that moment?

‍

Kind of what... were feeling in your body, what was going on in your mind, how you were kind of

‍

sitting with that in that moment as it was happening? Yeah. Going back to that place in my body,

‍

I was feeling shame. I was feeling shame in my body. I was feeling panic.

‍

I was feeling immense fear about...

‍

it meant that the person I thought I would be spending the rest of my life with,

‍

that was no longer the case. I was feeling self-blame because the type of relationship we had,

‍

it was two things. He was really good at making everything.

‍

feel like my fault, every problem in our relationship. you know, be my fault.

‍

And because I already had, and I'm sure we can talk about this more, a rejection wound,

‍

it was easy to just accept all of that. Accept that there was something about me that made you

‍

betray me. And this happening at, you know, what I say,

‍

a big age. I was in my 30s. It just felt like this was the end of my...

‍

story it was my fault and this was the end this was the end what i wanted love which is you know so

‍

fundamental right all we want is love um it wasn't gonna happen this was done this was it it was my

‍

fault um And so on that plane, and I share the story that I had just come off of delivering mental

‍

health goods. I was a keynote speaker for this conference and helping people through their story.

‍

And literally at that conference learned that he had been unfaithful and was on my way home.

‍

And yeah, that's panic, fear, shame, blame.

‍

And I love it. So first of all, you are a psychologist. You're an expert. Well, yeah,

‍

by training, but a psychology professor by work. Yeah. Yes. Right. So this is your field,

‍

right? And I love this because I feel the same. Like, this does not make us immune from,

‍

in many ways, the illogic of shame. Because, P.S., I just, I listen to this. I'm like, you were

‍

betrayed by someone. He was unfaithful. And in that moment, what your body,

‍

I think the first word you said was shame. This must be my fault. I mean,

‍

isn't that amazing? We it doesn't matter what we know. It's what if anything,

‍

and I don't know if you experienced this, if anything, if anything, it can sometimes feel like

‍

even. an additional level of shame because it's like us as the professional how did we get here how

‍

did we get to the point where all this knowledge we don't prevent these situations yeah that's a

‍

good point so it almost adds an extra I should have seen this I should have seen this coming yeah

‍

so I want to flip into your expert hat here for a moment.

‍

Why does rejection so quickly turn into shame and self blame? You talked about your own rejection

‍

wounds. I want to use your own story, use your expertise. I'd love to kind of unpack that. What is

‍

it about rejection or betrayal, which is a form of, you know, extreme form of rejection?

‍

Why does it so quickly turn inward? Yeah. So I'll say two things to that.

‍

Well, first, I mean, we are meant. We are designed to be accepted,

‍

to be loved, and to be embraced. Those are our fundamental needs, as you know. So rejection is

‍

going to be painful for us because we're not supposed to experience that in a way.

‍

We're not designed, we're not built for that in a way. But as someone who has a rejection wound,

‍

I talk about how that's always going to add an additional layer of pain because we're already so

‍

sensitive to it. Does that make sense? Yeah. So tell me a little bit about what you mean by

‍

rejection wound. Yeah. So rejection wound is a kind of origin wound.

‍

kind of like our our first experience of pain it is it was a time as you already know like but you

‍

know for the listeners it's a time in our life where we are being imprinted with a global

‍

experience this is what the world means this is how i like to explain orange orange and wound as

‍

well it's an imprint It tells us about the world in one incident. And early in my life,

‍

I experienced several rejections that made me see the world as the world rejects me and I am

‍

rejectable. So every experience that I go through that could be ambiguous,

‍

that somebody else could look at it differently. I, because of my rejection wound, I,

‍

because I've been imprinted with this kind of global, interpretation of what life is and what that

‍

means for me, I'm going to interpret everything as my fault because I am rejectable.

‍

Interesting. So that makes sense. So you answered the question, why does it hurt? There's two

‍

things. The first is it hurts all of us. It's universal. We're not designed for rupture,

‍

for rejection, for betrayal. But when there's that extra layer of an imprint,

‍

I love that word, where you've Your body has learned to see through that lens of I am fundamentally

‍

rejectable. There's that extra layer of this is my fault. This has to be about me.

‍

And when did you first become aware of that? Because I think if you're not aware of that,

‍

you might believe the lie. Like for you, the moment in the plane is you then can notice that,

‍

do the work of. anchoring yourself to reality but when was there a moment when you began to realize

‍

oh my gosh I have this lens through which I see things yeah for sure you know it's funny that I

‍

think I first started realizing that I was reading things in a different way when I would share

‍

stories and not this particular story of the betrayal with the guy but I would share other

‍

situations and how I felt and apparently by what I would say,

‍

like, oh, I'm so stupid. I'm, you know, if this is, I should have done this better or whatever the

‍

case may be, whoever I'd be talking to would be like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

‍

That's, that's a little, that's a little strong piece. Like I wouldn't have necessarily thought

‍

about it that way. Yeah. Yeah. That hurts, but I don't like your. going really hard on yourself and

‍

you're making yourself the the entire center and the entire core of this problem and so hearing

‍

that feedback i'd be like oh i maybe i am thinking about this in a way that i don't have to and

‍

then it was further confirmed in therapy when i started my work years ago you know my therapist was

‍

actually the one to start giving me um some additional terms in what I'd learned in school,

‍

like rejection sensitivity. That's like a newer term, rejection sensitivity, a global sense of

‍

rejection. And I was like, oh, yeah. But it was first in conversation with friends,

‍

comparing experiences or hearing them say, whoa, girl, calm down.

‍

And it was just a normal way to talk about myself and a normal way to think about. myself. This is

‍

I'm rejectable. Yeah. This is this is my script. This is my play.

‍

Yeah, this is about me. I want to kind of touch on this rejection sensitivity.

‍

I only recently became aware of that term in the therapeutic space. And it was interesting.

‍

Because I noticed, you know, we've talked about highly sensitive, the highly sensitive person,

‍

that's kind of the language I've, which is different. They're two different things. But I as I've

‍

thought about that lens and I'm curious it tell me a little bit what you mean by it but it's kind

‍

of helped because it's like I'll see other people even to this day able to take a rejection or take

‍

an insult or take a criticism and just kind of they don't like it but they kind of just either clap

‍

back easily or move on and that has never been me. I take it in.

‍

Is that kind of like, tell me a little bit about what does rejection sensitivity mean?

‍

And it sounds like there's some sense of it's of nature and nurture. There's some sense of it

‍

that's part of predisposition and wiring and then probably paired with some painful experiences.

‍

Some experiences. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So that wounding is about. Interpreting rejection where

‍

there may be room for another explanation. I think that was one big revelation for me where,

‍

you know, even in ambiguous situations, even in situations where another interpretation of why

‍

things happened, like in my case, he's a narcissist, you know, where another interpretation could

‍

work. My immediate. you know, interpretation was, it's me.

‍

I'm, I'm rejectable. I'm rejectable. There's something wrong with me or, um, it pains it.

‍

The pain is, as you just said, not something you can easily bounce back from.

‍

It is something that sits with you, stays with you weeks, months, years. It starts to write your

‍

story. When you're experiencing rejection like that, you're talking about something a little deeper

‍

than the, you know, my feelings are a little bit hurt, but it's okay.

‍

I'm going to keep it pushing and go to the next one. There's some of us who, because of our wiring,

‍

like you said, and because of our wounding, wiring and wounding. are going to respond a little bit

‍

differently it's going to be a little bit more elevated a little bit more heightened and of course

‍

that doesn't you know we all have our stuff but for those of us who have that little origin that

‍

little wounding rejection takes kind of an additional toll on us

‍

Lately, I've been thinking about how the small things we live with every day really do affect how

‍

we feel. The older I get, the more I notice that comfort matters, not to be extravagant, but in

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that grounded everyday way that helps you feel more like yourself. And that's what I appreciate

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about Cozy Earth. It can be something as simple as a pair of socks that feels soft, breathable, and

‍

fits just right as you move through your day, or a comforter at night that helps your body settle

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‍

home feel calm. Bedtime feel more restorative and daily life a little bit more cared for. With Cozy

‍

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heard about Cozy Earth. right here. Experience the craft behind the comfort and make every day feel

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intentional.

‍

It makes so much sense and I so appreciate your being willing to talk about it and anchor this

‍

wholehearted way because it gives hope, I think, to know, oh, it's not just me.

‍

It's not just me. I'm not the only one. You know, when I was like, gosh, I... Even to this day,

‍

I've thought, why am I so sensitive? That kind of thing. Why was this so hard for me? And then you

‍

start to realize, no, no, there's a lot of us out there for whom this is just very real.

‍

And it is true for everybody, but a subset for whom there's an even greater.

‍

And my guess is that there's a. I always think with any of these kind of sensitivities,

‍

there's a strength on the other side. I don't think it's an accident that you're in a healing

‍

profession with a lot of empathy. I think those two things sometimes go on the same two sides of

‍

the same coin.

‍

Absolutely. Yeah. The sensitivity we have for other people, the almost kind of superpower I feel

‍

like we have in reading other people's. pain. I think it's kind of this, that's,

‍

you know, my, my therapist would always say, you know, there's, there's, there's the gift of it.

‍

And, you know, I don't want to call it a curse, but there's the gift. And then there's the, there's

‍

the burden, you know, if you will. Yeah. And, The feedback I also get from friends and family and

‍

loved ones and people in my care is just, I can get to their pain and feel their pain quicker than

‍

anybody else in their life.

‍

I do think that's connected. I think there's a sensitivity there. a reader there we have of our

‍

world and of our loved ones that, you know, they depend on.

‍

But, you know, when we're going through our stuff, it's hard. It sucks. And it can feel

‍

embarrassing, even though it's human, you know. But yeah, absolutely.

‍

So this leads me to then for someone listening, if we keep returning to relationships or

‍

environments where we feel unseen or kind of almost heightened that it's almost like we're trying

‍

to get that healed. What longing might be driving that pattern?

‍

Because I can see how, again, when there's that old wound,

‍

as you say, that rejection wound, there's often that subconscious drive to get it healed.

‍

And maybe that even is drawn toward people who replay the pattern. Yeah. Oh,

‍

absolutely. I believe in that. I believe that we are unconsciously drawn to the very things that

‍

hurt us because unconsciously we're seeking another way to get it repaired.

‍

Or even if it's starting to... to repair then it's almost like we need to continue testing it like

‍

let me just make sure i am truly accepted let me just make sure i am truly okay let me just make

‍

sure i i am you know beloved and it's not that easy to just fall away from me because i feel like i

‍

have done a lot of work in my life personally and that there's been a lot of repair but i find in

‍

relationships and especially in you know my most intimate relationships that there's a part of me

‍

that still wants to test that like let me just you know let me just make sure that we're still good

‍

here and I'm I've I have seen patterns of being drawn to people who have temperaments or

‍

characteristics that make it easier for me to want to test that.

‍

And, you know, at some point I want to sit down with God and be like, why did you like, why is it,

‍

why did you do that? Like, why is it this way? But I can tell you for sure that I've consistently

‍

seen that pattern in myself and in the various ways that I've worked that we at least unconsciously

‍

are seeking for a chance to continue to fix and to continue to find assurance in,

‍

in, in those same ways around the theme of rejected. Are we truly accepted? Are we truly lovable?

‍

Can people stick? I think that's like another word that I've sat with.

‍

Can you stick to me? Or is there something I can do, you know, unintentionally to make you leave

‍

me? So it's, yeah, I've seen that pattern.

‍

I've seen that pattern in myself. You know, in the book and in my work, I talk about the things we

‍

can do when we are. kind of in that cycle, but it is something to continually be aware about and

‍

something that I personally have to be intentional about and sort of suss out when I feel myself

‍

feeling that shame and panic and fear again. Yeah, it's a cue. And you talk about one of the things

‍

you say is that heartbreak can become an opening. So the pain of that actually becomes your

‍

invitation. And I want to get into that, the healing part of it. Before we go there,

‍

I have a question I like to ask other people in this field. Because I think when people reach out

‍

for help, when they start to recognize something's off here, I'm feeling more shame than I want to

‍

feel, or I'm blaming myself for something that's not my fault, or I can't get out of a pattern,

‍

they reach for support. And you've talked a little bit about what was helpful with your friends

‍

kind of naming. I think you're taking on too much here or your therapist helping you name things.

‍

I also kind of like to flesh out, did you, were there things that weren't helpful? Because I also

‍

think it's helpful sometimes to name, like these were the kind of messages that weren't. helpful to

‍

me for example one you know that i've talked about a little bit is you know pray it away you know

‍

like just just pray more and that that can be so self-defeating because it's like well it's a

‍

nervous system issue that is going to take And many moments of practicing,

‍

just to your point, practicing a new way, it won't magically go away necessarily. And so that can

‍

feel so self-defeating if someone says, just pray it away, because then when it doesn't go away,

‍

it's like, am I a failure of faith now too? So that's one example. I was just curious if,

‍

and if you don't have any, if there's, but if... there was advice that wasn't helpful or hasn't

‍

been helpful or wouldn't be helpful, just to alert the listener if they're hearing that, it's okay

‍

to go, oh, that's not going to take me where I am. to go here yeah oh absolutely so anything in the

‍

name of like well just just get over it just you know just shrug it off just dust it off like it's

‍

it's not that deep it's not that serious like anything that was said that sort of um made it how do

‍

i say this made it that wasn't congruent to what it felt like to me wasn't helpful. So if I'm

‍

telling you, this is breaking my heart. If I'm telling you, I don't know my way out of this thing.

‍

I don't want to show up again. I don't want to continue. And I don't know why. And you're telling

‍

me something that feels incongruent to how deep and serious it feels. That wasn't helpful.

‍

It was helpful to hear. That's a different response that I that I,

‍

you know, like if a friend was saying, wow, I wouldn't have arrived there. That was helpful because

‍

it showed me there was something to look at, but it wasn't helpful to be invalidated.

‍

Because when you talk about nervous system, we don't just flip a switch and have our body respond

‍

in a different way. You know, I love that. That's such an important I want to.

‍

double click there for a second because that's a nuanced difference where a friend who says just

‍

that's stupid you're fine get over it versus a friend who says that's interesting it maybe if you

‍

know I don't know that I would respond that way or it does feel like you're being a little hard on

‍

yourself right there that's a nuanced difference that really matters we it's not that we have to

‍

validate everything that our friends tell us or that we feel like I know I've come to a point in my

‍

life, even again, I'm, you know, I'm an empty nest, you know. like old, you know, but it's like,

‍

oh my, and I just, I, to the, to the point we were talking at the top of the episode about humor.

‍

And I was talking about the, how you can get to a point of being able to laugh at yourself. I'm at

‍

a point now where I can kind of go, oh golly, I am just ridiculous. Like I can't even like fire a

‍

repairman who has botched a job because I don't want to hurt his feelings, you know, like, and it's

‍

that, that sensitivity. I'm so sensitive to that. I don't want to impose that on anybody else. And

‍

I'm to the point where it hasn't totally changed. But I can kind of laugh at myself a little bit,

‍

right? Because it's just a part of me. But that's different. So I'm not validating. I'm not

‍

acknowledging that it's not kind of an extreme response.

‍

But I'm also accepting it, I guess. So I love how you're saying that. There's a nuanced middle

‍

ground there that we can hold ourselves and our friends with. Absolutely. Yeah, there's noticing.

‍

And a word that I've been loving, witnessing. There's been noticing and there's witnessing.

‍

And then there's judging. And as my friend, I want you to notice.

‍

I want you to witness. I want you to tell me, you know, what... looks different and you know

‍

because you because you want me to understand myself better but I don't need your judgment and I

‍

don't need your invalidation and I certainly don't need help feeling ashamed so you know I'm gonna

‍

pick and choose who can notice and who can witness and who can gently hold up a mirror so that I

‍

can understand myself and find greater fulfillment in my relationships and I'm gonna step out of a

‍

relationship with you if I'm gonna be feeling judged and invalidated and you giving me more reason

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love that i love that that's that's really um really wise i think when we think about who we're

‍

going to walk with and who we're going to let into these tender places so i want to i want to shift

‍

to Kind of we've been circling around it, how we heal and holding intention,

‍

the wiring and the wounded. This isn't going to happen magically healing. What does healing look

‍

like to you? How do you see the goal here? And I know it kind of gets to, I think,

‍

the title of your book, but how do you see the goal here? Yeah, so I've defined wholeheartedness.

‍

I've chosen wholeheartedness as a word. to define a process.

‍

I call, or I define wholeheartedness as an integrative approach to healing.

‍

And, you know, the whole book is about like the different pillars or the different aspects of what

‍

this healing looks like. And kind of similar to, you know, I had mentioned before,

‍

I think this was offline, that I really loved one of your recent episodes about humor being a sign

‍

of healing, being a sign that you're healing, you know, I would say peace,

‍

a sense of peace is a sign that you've been healing.

‍

And so this whole book, wholeheartedness sort of break down and unpack some of the most helpful

‍

aspects of this healing process that ultimately can lead us.

‍

to peace not everything being fixed you know not everything being perfect again but having peace

‍

even while we're kind of moving through the various kind of heartbreaks that life gives us i one of

‍

the stories that i go back to is that relationship i thought i was gonna spend my life with this

‍

guy you know but men certainly are the only people who break our heart right

‍

Friends can, siblings can, parents can, your country can,

‍

all of that. So wholeheartedness is what I call an integrative approach to healing that can lead us

‍

to peace. And it begins with trying to get us to hold,

‍

when we go through something, the opposing realities of our lives.

‍

So in this situation, with this relationship I'm talking about, there was the reality that I was

‍

completely heartbroken and I felt like my love story was over, that this was it.

‍

This was the end. I was saying goodbye to a relationship and it hurt.

‍

And pain has to run its course. But when I say embracing opposing realities in our lives,

‍

there's that truth. I'm heartbroken. I don't see a future. I don't see another way. I don't see the

‍

end. I'm saying goodbye to this relationship, but I'm also... saying hello to a new relationship

‍

with myself. There was clearly, because of this heartbreak,

‍

an ability for me to see the things that I was still believing about myself that I'd always

‍

believed. You know, things about me that could stand to be touched by God,

‍

could stand to be touched by, you know, love, by more internal work.

‍

And I was able to see that. Because of that heartbreak. When I talk about heartbreak being an open

‍

window into our soul, there's something heartbreak can do that other things can't do. And it's

‍

reveal what's deep down under, you know, what can still stand to be healed. And so when I embrace

‍

that fullness of it, that I'm hurting and I'm heartbroken, I'm saying goodbye, but I'm also at the

‍

beginning of saying hello, creating a new relationship with myself. To me,

‍

in that, that's the beginning of finding peace. There's this, but there's also this. You know,

‍

there's this reality, but there's also this reality. And they feel contradictory. But when I can

‍

hold them together, there's something about that that I can gain from.

‍

That's a word. That's beautiful. I am so struck by the fact that your name is Peace.

‍

People have been saying that. It's just so... Because that word is, you just brought such depth to

‍

that word. It's not either or. It's holding the reality of both. Right.

‍

That's incredible. So how would you tell the listener from the book?

‍

I know you provide a very clear path. What are some of the first steps on the path?

‍

Yeah. I'm always going to start with looking at your beliefs.

‍

like in the first place, um, when it comes to healing, well, actually the first,

‍

very first thing that I just, you know, in the name of not hinting at any kind of spiritual

‍

bypassing is to let pain run its course. I mean, for at least a week,

‍

maybe two, I couldn't even think like, don't, I'm not going to read a book. I'm not gonna,

‍

I'm. I can't think straight. I can't see straight. I can't hear anything.

‍

I can hardly pray. I think I looked up to God and I said, how, why? Those were my prayers.

‍

How, why, you know? And my mom's spoken to me and friends spoken to me and they dropped really good

‍

seeds, but pain has to run its course. It's like when we're bleeding, like physically bleeding,

‍

that blood, it's coming out, it's pumping out. And we just have to like, what's the word?

‍

Put pressure and, you know, like not die. Like the goal is not to die.

‍

You know what I mean? When we're broken, the very first thing is try not to die.

‍

And I know I'm being facetious here, but when we're that broken over anything, love,

‍

the end of a marriage, the loss of a dream, you know, whatever, just. breathe,

‍

like just try to get to the next day is the very first step. That's amazing. It's true. You know,

‍

but after that, because heartbreak can help us tap into what's really deep beneath the service.

‍

And a lot of that is some really messed up beliefs we have about ourselves.

‍

The first thing I would tell people is try to grab what those are.

‍

When you're sitting there after heartbreak, after the end of a marriage, after the loss of a hope,

‍

the loss of a dream, a chapter in your life coming to an end and you don't know if you'll ever get

‍

a new beginning, a new chance at it, like love. For me, in that case, was love.

‍

What's really going down? What are you really thinking about yourself in that moment?

‍

What are you really believing about yourself in that moment? Heartbreak has a way of revealing the

‍

toughest, nastiest things that we think about ourselves. And until we can tap into that and

‍

confront that and begin to work on changing that. And in the book, I name sort of like three

‍

specific beliefs I think can kind of summarize a lot of what we all feel.

‍

And I'll just say them, you know, I'm bad, I'm broken, and my life is beyond hope.

‍

when we can kind of grab those and sit with them.

‍

I mean, you know, Dr. Allison, that as soon as we become aware of things, that's the only place we

‍

can start to kind of dust them off and begin to work with them when they become aware to us in the

‍

first place. That's the only place they can be shaken out is when they're aware, when they're held

‍

up to the light. And so that's always going to be my first. what do you believe what what is this

‍

making you believe about yourself right now whatever the heartbreak and disappointment or rejection

‍

is what is it grab that thought because as soon as you hold it up you can start to work with it oh

‍

that's so good that's so good and therein begins the healing it's such a paradox but it's actually

‍

allowing that heartbreak i love how you And again, in the book, you really talk about this broken

‍

heart, you know, and in those pieces, you can actually start to see more clearly. Yes.

‍

It's so good. It's so good. I want to just before we wind down here,

‍

and you've talked about this a little bit, but how did your experience,

‍

your experiences in the plural, but this experience as well, affect your faith?

‍

You've touched on this, but I think many people can begin to maybe not only lose hope in others,

‍

but lose hope in God and bring some of this into their relationship with God. Maybe I'm not worth

‍

God's time.

‍

How has that been played out in your life, and how have you seen that show up spiritually?

‍

Yeah, you kind of named it right there. So, you know, I'm talking about the heartbreak being an

‍

open window and open glass and to our past and to our soul and starting to see more clearly about

‍

what's all underneath, what's all underneath this. Right. And then it finally gives us a chance to

‍

work at it. And one of one thing that I found in addition to me feeling or realizing that I

‍

believe, oh, I'm I'm I'm broken. Like I don't work. My love doesn't work like I.

‍

I don't work. Something about me doesn't work. And that's just what it is, was, you know,

‍

God doesn't work. You know, it's there's or he doesn't work for me.

‍

You know, I believe in God. Somehow it didn't shake my belief like in God and his existence.

‍

But it did shake my belief in like God working things out for me.

‍

There's I feel like. For a lot of us, maybe we can, it's like saying, yeah, God is good,

‍

but it's God good to me. God is faithful, but it's God faithful to me are two very different

‍

things. And I realized one of my beliefs is one of the beliefs under the core was,

‍

yeah, that, you know, God is good and God is real, but I don't know if God is good and real to me.

‍

I don't know why he would let me go. through all of this i've i've like the story of hannah i've

‍

been asking him for one thing it's like you know how they say you have one job You know,

‍

I've been asking God for one thing and I've seen him do magic in all these different areas of my

‍

life. But this one thing, what you have one job, God, and it looked like we were getting close and

‍

nope, you know, I'm alone. You don't care. And the funny thing is,

‍

Allison, and I want to be careful how I talk about this, because I don't know how God's going to

‍

meet every reader that reads this book or every listener. I don't know how God's going to what God

‍

is going to do. in their stories i believe god's going to do something um and i'll tell you that my

‍

life looks completely different now than it looked back then and i and i've seen um there's

‍

redemption in my story that i'm not ready to talk about publicly but i'll you know hint hint

‍

there's there's a lot of redemption in my story that i'm celebrating now and i and i say i want to

‍

be careful talking about it because you know, how you'll hear, Oh, they did it for this person. And

‍

we know, and then we start, I don't know. I just, that's a whole other theological thing. I don't

‍

want to go down. I do believe God is faithful to his children, but I,

‍

in my story, I questioned that. And I believe it was important for me to find,

‍

to work towards finding peace in the unknown to me was the whole point,

‍

not, not what practically God has done for my life now, because I can't sell that to you.

‍

I don't know what God's going to do. I know God's going to do something, but I don't know what's

‍

going to do. But what I can sell you is that you can find peace in the unknown and you can find

‍

peace in the unfolding of your life. Because one truth is, is as long as we're here and we're

‍

longer still breathing, God is not done. We're not done. And there's some,

‍

powerful things that can come out of realizing that. And I hope that for my readers and for my

‍

listeners, they get exactly what they want. But I know what's even more important is how to find

‍

peace in the unknown, in the unwielding, in the uncertain,

‍

and in the unfolding that is a characteristic of each and every one of our lives.

‍

Our stories are still unfolding. So I don't know. I think that was a roundabout way to get to

‍

something. But that's definitely what I want to leave with. That's the heart of the book, that you

‍

can find peace, that your life is still unfolding. It's not over. That is a lie, that it's over.

‍

It is a lie that you're broken and that you don't work and that your life doesn't work. It is a lie

‍

that you are bad. I believe we are good and worthy by grace. And there's some beauty to be found in

‍

all of that.

‍

That's how I'd answer that. That is so powerful. I love that. It's like you're refusing to tie the

‍

happy bow because we don't know how that plays out. And it doesn't always play out the same for

‍

everybody. That doesn't mean that we don't have that. gift that comes it's just you said that so

‍

well Dr. Peace you are truly a doctor of peace that was a word I just felt that in my bones and it

‍

I can tell it's coming from your hard-earned wisdom your expertise you know all the different

‍

layers of whole I I can feel from you the wholeheartedness and that means a lot to me yeah yeah I

‍

could feel just It's just really powerful. Where can my listeners find your work?

‍

Because I want them to find you and your work and your book and all that you're doing. Yeah, thank

‍

you for that question. So of course you can, right now I'm most active on Instagram, so you can

‍

find me at itspisamadi. I'm sure you'll leave those details. But I really love people to check out

‍

this book. I'm so excited about this book. It's not my first book, but it is my personal,

‍

most personal book thus far. I will say that this book, you know, wasn't about establishing me as

‍

an author, testing the waters. I wanted to write an honest book about healing.

‍

I'm really excited for people to find gems. I believe there are gems in this.

‍

And you can find this book anywhere where books are online. It's Amazon, Target,

‍

Barnes & Noble. Any online retailer, go to your favorite. You can grab it. But you can get all

‍

those links directly from my Instagram page. I'd love for you to give it a chance. I cannot

‍

recommend it more. We will link to it in today's show notes. We'll link to it on our website, The

‍

Wholehearted Way by Dr. Pisa Mahdi. It is well worth, if you're a listener of this podcast,

‍

you will love this book. It is just your story and your expertise just in this wholehearted way.

‍

It's just so beautiful. And I'm so grateful that you are sharing your wisdom with the world,

‍

sharing your wisdom with us today. Thank you for taking the time. I am just so grateful for you.

‍

Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Allison. This was a bucket list to talk with you and on your podcast

‍

because I love it. So thank you for having me and thank you for sharing your listeners with me.

‍

We're grateful. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean

‍

so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you

‍

listen to or watch podcasts and click the plus or follow button. That'll ensure you don't miss an

‍

episode and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you leave a

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five-star review. And be sure to join us each weekday for the best of you every day, a brief daily

‍

reflection to help you start your mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become

‍

the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

‍

Episode Show Notes

What if heartbreak isn’t just about what happened to you—but what it reveals about what you believe about yourself?

At its core, heartbreak isn’t just about loss. It’s about the meaning your mind and body begin to make of that loss—especially when it touches something older. Rejection, betrayal, and disappointment have a way of surfacing deeper questions about who we are… and whether we are still worthy of love.

If you’ve ever found yourself asking, why does this hurt so much more than it should?… this conversation between Dr. Alison Cook and Dr. Peace Amadi will help you begin to understand why—and what healing might look like.

You’ll explore:

• Why rejection can feel deeply personal… even when it isn’t
  
  
• The hidden beliefs heartbreak can quietly bring to the surface
  
  
• Why certain patterns in your life keep getting replayed
  
  
• How past wounds can shape your present reactions
  
  
• What happens to your faith when pain doesn’t make sense
  
  
• Where healing begins when nothing feels resolved yet
  
  

This conversation offers a compassionate, faith-rooted path forward—helping you make sense of what’s been stirred up within you, and gently move toward a deeper sense of peace.

‍

More Resources:

Check out Dr. Peace Amadi’s brand new book, The Wholehearted Way: Finding Peace After Life’s Heartbreaks, Disappointments, and Rejections

‍

Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram

‍

Want to go deeper? Join 80,000+ soul menders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices here. 

If you liked this episode, then you’ll love:

Episode 200: Trauma, Safety, and Healing—3 Trauma Responses + 4 Ways to Restore Trust

Episode 179: Building Wise Trust - How to Protect Your Heart Without Closing It Off

Episode 188: The Healing Power of Safe People (Not Just Safe Spaces)

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here

‍

Don't forget to browse this week's sponsors, who make it possible for me to bring you these resources for free + provide you with additional discounts!

• Quince - How you dress affects your mood and you can trust that Quince has you covered in every day sustainable wardrobe staples. Go to ⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
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While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

‍

TRANSCRIPT

When you're sitting there after heartbreak, after the end of a marriage, after the loss of a hope,

‍

the loss of a dream, what are you really believing about yourself in that moment? Heartbreak has a

‍

way of revealing the toughest, nastiest things that we think about ourselves. And until we can tap

‍

into that and confront that and begin to work on changing that, as soon as we become aware of

‍

things, that's the only place we can start to kind of dust them off and begin to work with them.

‍

Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I'm so glad

‍

you're here with me for today's deep dive conversation. This is for anyone who's ever known the

‍

ache of heartbreak, rejection, or disappointment, and especially for those of us who know what it

‍

is to take these experiences deeply into our bodies and our stories. I want to begin today with

‍

this simple, beautiful reminder from Psalm 34, 18, the Lord. is near to the brokenhearted and saves

‍

the crushed in spirit. I love this verse because it doesn't rush us past pain.

‍

It doesn't minimize heartbreak or ask us to tidy it up too quickly. It simply reminds us that when

‍

our hearts are broken, when we feel crushed in spirit, God comes near.

‍

Maybe you've had a relationship end and found yourself not only grieving the loss, but also

‍

wrestling with that deeper question underneath it all. What does this say about me? Maybe you've

‍

been betrayed, overlooked, misunderstood, or left holding a pain that seems to reach far beyond the

‍

moment itself. And maybe if you're honest, you've found yourself carrying not just the sadness,

‍

but even shame. Maybe self-blame. confusion, that sense that something painful out there has

‍

somehow turned inward on yourself. If that resonates, I think today's episode is going to meet you

‍

in a really powerful way. My guest today is Dr. Pisa Mahdi, and this conversation was so rich

‍

because she brings both her incredible professional wisdom and a deeply personal honesty to the

‍

subject of healing. Dr. Pisa Mahdi is a psychology professor, speaker, coach,

‍

and mental health expert. She's the author of numerous books, including her brand new book.

‍

It's called The Wholehearted Way, Finding Peace After Life's Heartbreaks, Disappointments,

‍

and Rejections. And it is exactly that kind of book, one that helps us understand why rejection

‍

cuts so deep, how old wounds can shape the stories we tell ourselves, and how healing begins not by

‍

pretending the pain isn't right. but by letting it reveal what's been living underneath the surface

‍

all along. What I really appreciate about Dr. Peace is that she writes and speaks from that rare

‍

place where clinical insight, faith, and her lived experience all meet. She understands that

‍

heartbreak is never just about what happened right now. It's also about where heartbreak has

‍

touched us in the past. The beliefs it exposes, the old wounds it often awakens.

‍

The parts of us that begin to wonder, am I too much? Am I not enough? Am I somehow the reason this

‍

happened? And in today's conversation, that's where we're headed. We're going to talk about

‍

rejection wounds, shame, self-blame, nervous system responses, and the way heartbreak can

‍

sometimes become an opening into deeper healing all the way back to the past. We also talk about

‍

faith, what happens when pain doesn't just shake your trust in other people, but begins to shake

‍

your trust in God. And Dr. Peace offers such a grounded, compassionate vision of healing.

‍

She's so real. I loved this conversation. She doesn't give us a neat and tidy formula or a forced

‍

kind of happy ending, but she wants us to learn to hold the truth of our pain alongside the

‍

possibility and the hope of peace and healing and even more goodness. I know so many of you will

‍

feel seen by this conversation as I did. So whether you are in the middle of a heartbreak of your

‍

own, whether you're trying to make sense of an old wound that still gets touched, or whether you're

‍

simply longing for a more compassionate and whole way of walking through disappointment, I'm so

‍

glad you are here with me today. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr.

‍

Peace Amadi.

‍

Well, I'm thrilled you're here. And I would love for you to open this conversation in the way that

‍

you open this beautiful new book, The Wholehearted Way. I love the title, by the way. I want to get

‍

into how you landed on that. We have so many overlaps in our interests, and you're just bringing

‍

such a beautiful lens to this conversation. You start the book with a pretty vulnerable story about

‍

sitting on a plane after experiencing betrayal. Would you tell us about that moment?

‍

Kind of what... were feeling in your body, what was going on in your mind, how you were kind of

‍

sitting with that in that moment as it was happening? Yeah. Going back to that place in my body,

‍

I was feeling shame. I was feeling shame in my body. I was feeling panic.

‍

I was feeling immense fear about...

‍

it meant that the person I thought I would be spending the rest of my life with,

‍

that was no longer the case. I was feeling self-blame because the type of relationship we had,

‍

it was two things. He was really good at making everything.

‍

feel like my fault, every problem in our relationship. you know, be my fault.

‍

And because I already had, and I'm sure we can talk about this more, a rejection wound,

‍

it was easy to just accept all of that. Accept that there was something about me that made you

‍

betray me. And this happening at, you know, what I say,

‍

a big age. I was in my 30s. It just felt like this was the end of my...

‍

story it was my fault and this was the end this was the end what i wanted love which is you know so

‍

fundamental right all we want is love um it wasn't gonna happen this was done this was it it was my

‍

fault um And so on that plane, and I share the story that I had just come off of delivering mental

‍

health goods. I was a keynote speaker for this conference and helping people through their story.

‍

And literally at that conference learned that he had been unfaithful and was on my way home.

‍

And yeah, that's panic, fear, shame, blame.

‍

And I love it. So first of all, you are a psychologist. You're an expert. Well, yeah,

‍

by training, but a psychology professor by work. Yeah. Yes. Right. So this is your field,

‍

right? And I love this because I feel the same. Like, this does not make us immune from,

‍

in many ways, the illogic of shame. Because, P.S., I just, I listen to this. I'm like, you were

‍

betrayed by someone. He was unfaithful. And in that moment, what your body,

‍

I think the first word you said was shame. This must be my fault. I mean,

‍

isn't that amazing? We it doesn't matter what we know. It's what if anything,

‍

and I don't know if you experienced this, if anything, if anything, it can sometimes feel like

‍

even. an additional level of shame because it's like us as the professional how did we get here how

‍

did we get to the point where all this knowledge we don't prevent these situations yeah that's a

‍

good point so it almost adds an extra I should have seen this I should have seen this coming yeah

‍

so I want to flip into your expert hat here for a moment.

‍

Why does rejection so quickly turn into shame and self blame? You talked about your own rejection

‍

wounds. I want to use your own story, use your expertise. I'd love to kind of unpack that. What is

‍

it about rejection or betrayal, which is a form of, you know, extreme form of rejection?

‍

Why does it so quickly turn inward? Yeah. So I'll say two things to that.

‍

Well, first, I mean, we are meant. We are designed to be accepted,

‍

to be loved, and to be embraced. Those are our fundamental needs, as you know. So rejection is

‍

going to be painful for us because we're not supposed to experience that in a way.

‍

We're not designed, we're not built for that in a way. But as someone who has a rejection wound,

‍

I talk about how that's always going to add an additional layer of pain because we're already so

‍

sensitive to it. Does that make sense? Yeah. So tell me a little bit about what you mean by

‍

rejection wound. Yeah. So rejection wound is a kind of origin wound.

‍

kind of like our our first experience of pain it is it was a time as you already know like but you

‍

know for the listeners it's a time in our life where we are being imprinted with a global

‍

experience this is what the world means this is how i like to explain orange orange and wound as

‍

well it's an imprint It tells us about the world in one incident. And early in my life,

‍

I experienced several rejections that made me see the world as the world rejects me and I am

‍

rejectable. So every experience that I go through that could be ambiguous,

‍

that somebody else could look at it differently. I, because of my rejection wound, I,

‍

because I've been imprinted with this kind of global, interpretation of what life is and what that

‍

means for me, I'm going to interpret everything as my fault because I am rejectable.

‍

Interesting. So that makes sense. So you answered the question, why does it hurt? There's two

‍

things. The first is it hurts all of us. It's universal. We're not designed for rupture,

‍

for rejection, for betrayal. But when there's that extra layer of an imprint,

‍

I love that word, where you've Your body has learned to see through that lens of I am fundamentally

‍

rejectable. There's that extra layer of this is my fault. This has to be about me.

‍

And when did you first become aware of that? Because I think if you're not aware of that,

‍

you might believe the lie. Like for you, the moment in the plane is you then can notice that,

‍

do the work of. anchoring yourself to reality but when was there a moment when you began to realize

‍

oh my gosh I have this lens through which I see things yeah for sure you know it's funny that I

‍

think I first started realizing that I was reading things in a different way when I would share

‍

stories and not this particular story of the betrayal with the guy but I would share other

‍

situations and how I felt and apparently by what I would say,

‍

like, oh, I'm so stupid. I'm, you know, if this is, I should have done this better or whatever the

‍

case may be, whoever I'd be talking to would be like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

‍

That's, that's a little, that's a little strong piece. Like I wouldn't have necessarily thought

‍

about it that way. Yeah. Yeah. That hurts, but I don't like your. going really hard on yourself and

‍

you're making yourself the the entire center and the entire core of this problem and so hearing

‍

that feedback i'd be like oh i maybe i am thinking about this in a way that i don't have to and

‍

then it was further confirmed in therapy when i started my work years ago you know my therapist was

‍

actually the one to start giving me um some additional terms in what I'd learned in school,

‍

like rejection sensitivity. That's like a newer term, rejection sensitivity, a global sense of

‍

rejection. And I was like, oh, yeah. But it was first in conversation with friends,

‍

comparing experiences or hearing them say, whoa, girl, calm down.

‍

And it was just a normal way to talk about myself and a normal way to think about. myself. This is

‍

I'm rejectable. Yeah. This is this is my script. This is my play.

‍

Yeah, this is about me. I want to kind of touch on this rejection sensitivity.

‍

I only recently became aware of that term in the therapeutic space. And it was interesting.

‍

Because I noticed, you know, we've talked about highly sensitive, the highly sensitive person,

‍

that's kind of the language I've, which is different. They're two different things. But I as I've

‍

thought about that lens and I'm curious it tell me a little bit what you mean by it but it's kind

‍

of helped because it's like I'll see other people even to this day able to take a rejection or take

‍

an insult or take a criticism and just kind of they don't like it but they kind of just either clap

‍

back easily or move on and that has never been me. I take it in.

‍

Is that kind of like, tell me a little bit about what does rejection sensitivity mean?

‍

And it sounds like there's some sense of it's of nature and nurture. There's some sense of it

‍

that's part of predisposition and wiring and then probably paired with some painful experiences.

‍

Some experiences. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So that wounding is about. Interpreting rejection where

‍

there may be room for another explanation. I think that was one big revelation for me where,

‍

you know, even in ambiguous situations, even in situations where another interpretation of why

‍

things happened, like in my case, he's a narcissist, you know, where another interpretation could

‍

work. My immediate. you know, interpretation was, it's me.

‍

I'm, I'm rejectable. I'm rejectable. There's something wrong with me or, um, it pains it.

‍

The pain is, as you just said, not something you can easily bounce back from.

‍

It is something that sits with you, stays with you weeks, months, years. It starts to write your

‍

story. When you're experiencing rejection like that, you're talking about something a little deeper

‍

than the, you know, my feelings are a little bit hurt, but it's okay.

‍

I'm going to keep it pushing and go to the next one. There's some of us who, because of our wiring,

‍

like you said, and because of our wounding, wiring and wounding. are going to respond a little bit

‍

differently it's going to be a little bit more elevated a little bit more heightened and of course

‍

that doesn't you know we all have our stuff but for those of us who have that little origin that

‍

little wounding rejection takes kind of an additional toll on us

‍

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intentional.

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It makes so much sense and I so appreciate your being willing to talk about it and anchor this

‍

wholehearted way because it gives hope, I think, to know, oh, it's not just me.

‍

It's not just me. I'm not the only one. You know, when I was like, gosh, I... Even to this day,

‍

I've thought, why am I so sensitive? That kind of thing. Why was this so hard for me? And then you

‍

start to realize, no, no, there's a lot of us out there for whom this is just very real.

‍

And it is true for everybody, but a subset for whom there's an even greater.

‍

And my guess is that there's a. I always think with any of these kind of sensitivities,

‍

there's a strength on the other side. I don't think it's an accident that you're in a healing

‍

profession with a lot of empathy. I think those two things sometimes go on the same two sides of

‍

the same coin.

‍

Absolutely. Yeah. The sensitivity we have for other people, the almost kind of superpower I feel

‍

like we have in reading other people's. pain. I think it's kind of this, that's,

‍

you know, my, my therapist would always say, you know, there's, there's, there's the gift of it.

‍

And, you know, I don't want to call it a curse, but there's the gift. And then there's the, there's

‍

the burden, you know, if you will. Yeah. And, The feedback I also get from friends and family and

‍

loved ones and people in my care is just, I can get to their pain and feel their pain quicker than

‍

anybody else in their life.

‍

I do think that's connected. I think there's a sensitivity there. a reader there we have of our

‍

world and of our loved ones that, you know, they depend on.

‍

But, you know, when we're going through our stuff, it's hard. It sucks. And it can feel

‍

embarrassing, even though it's human, you know. But yeah, absolutely.

‍

So this leads me to then for someone listening, if we keep returning to relationships or

‍

environments where we feel unseen or kind of almost heightened that it's almost like we're trying

‍

to get that healed. What longing might be driving that pattern?

‍

Because I can see how, again, when there's that old wound,

‍

as you say, that rejection wound, there's often that subconscious drive to get it healed.

‍

And maybe that even is drawn toward people who replay the pattern. Yeah. Oh,

‍

absolutely. I believe in that. I believe that we are unconsciously drawn to the very things that

‍

hurt us because unconsciously we're seeking another way to get it repaired.

‍

Or even if it's starting to... to repair then it's almost like we need to continue testing it like

‍

let me just make sure i am truly accepted let me just make sure i am truly okay let me just make

‍

sure i i am you know beloved and it's not that easy to just fall away from me because i feel like i

‍

have done a lot of work in my life personally and that there's been a lot of repair but i find in

‍

relationships and especially in you know my most intimate relationships that there's a part of me

‍

that still wants to test that like let me just you know let me just make sure that we're still good

‍

here and I'm I've I have seen patterns of being drawn to people who have temperaments or

‍

characteristics that make it easier for me to want to test that.

‍

And, you know, at some point I want to sit down with God and be like, why did you like, why is it,

‍

why did you do that? Like, why is it this way? But I can tell you for sure that I've consistently

‍

seen that pattern in myself and in the various ways that I've worked that we at least unconsciously

‍

are seeking for a chance to continue to fix and to continue to find assurance in,

‍

in, in those same ways around the theme of rejected. Are we truly accepted? Are we truly lovable?

‍

Can people stick? I think that's like another word that I've sat with.

‍

Can you stick to me? Or is there something I can do, you know, unintentionally to make you leave

‍

me? So it's, yeah, I've seen that pattern.

‍

I've seen that pattern in myself. You know, in the book and in my work, I talk about the things we

‍

can do when we are. kind of in that cycle, but it is something to continually be aware about and

‍

something that I personally have to be intentional about and sort of suss out when I feel myself

‍

feeling that shame and panic and fear again. Yeah, it's a cue. And you talk about one of the things

‍

you say is that heartbreak can become an opening. So the pain of that actually becomes your

‍

invitation. And I want to get into that, the healing part of it. Before we go there,

‍

I have a question I like to ask other people in this field. Because I think when people reach out

‍

for help, when they start to recognize something's off here, I'm feeling more shame than I want to

‍

feel, or I'm blaming myself for something that's not my fault, or I can't get out of a pattern,

‍

they reach for support. And you've talked a little bit about what was helpful with your friends

‍

kind of naming. I think you're taking on too much here or your therapist helping you name things.

‍

I also kind of like to flesh out, did you, were there things that weren't helpful? Because I also

‍

think it's helpful sometimes to name, like these were the kind of messages that weren't. helpful to

‍

me for example one you know that i've talked about a little bit is you know pray it away you know

‍

like just just pray more and that that can be so self-defeating because it's like well it's a

‍

nervous system issue that is going to take And many moments of practicing,

‍

just to your point, practicing a new way, it won't magically go away necessarily. And so that can

‍

feel so self-defeating if someone says, just pray it away, because then when it doesn't go away,

‍

it's like, am I a failure of faith now too? So that's one example. I was just curious if,

‍

and if you don't have any, if there's, but if... there was advice that wasn't helpful or hasn't

‍

been helpful or wouldn't be helpful, just to alert the listener if they're hearing that, it's okay

‍

to go, oh, that's not going to take me where I am. to go here yeah oh absolutely so anything in the

‍

name of like well just just get over it just you know just shrug it off just dust it off like it's

‍

it's not that deep it's not that serious like anything that was said that sort of um made it how do

‍

i say this made it that wasn't congruent to what it felt like to me wasn't helpful. So if I'm

‍

telling you, this is breaking my heart. If I'm telling you, I don't know my way out of this thing.

‍

I don't want to show up again. I don't want to continue. And I don't know why. And you're telling

‍

me something that feels incongruent to how deep and serious it feels. That wasn't helpful.

‍

It was helpful to hear. That's a different response that I that I,

‍

you know, like if a friend was saying, wow, I wouldn't have arrived there. That was helpful because

‍

it showed me there was something to look at, but it wasn't helpful to be invalidated.

‍

Because when you talk about nervous system, we don't just flip a switch and have our body respond

‍

in a different way. You know, I love that. That's such an important I want to.

‍

double click there for a second because that's a nuanced difference where a friend who says just

‍

that's stupid you're fine get over it versus a friend who says that's interesting it maybe if you

‍

know I don't know that I would respond that way or it does feel like you're being a little hard on

‍

yourself right there that's a nuanced difference that really matters we it's not that we have to

‍

validate everything that our friends tell us or that we feel like I know I've come to a point in my

‍

life, even again, I'm, you know, I'm an empty nest, you know. like old, you know, but it's like,

‍

oh my, and I just, I, to the, to the point we were talking at the top of the episode about humor.

‍

And I was talking about the, how you can get to a point of being able to laugh at yourself. I'm at

‍

a point now where I can kind of go, oh golly, I am just ridiculous. Like I can't even like fire a

‍

repairman who has botched a job because I don't want to hurt his feelings, you know, like, and it's

‍

that, that sensitivity. I'm so sensitive to that. I don't want to impose that on anybody else. And

‍

I'm to the point where it hasn't totally changed. But I can kind of laugh at myself a little bit,

‍

right? Because it's just a part of me. But that's different. So I'm not validating. I'm not

‍

acknowledging that it's not kind of an extreme response.

‍

But I'm also accepting it, I guess. So I love how you're saying that. There's a nuanced middle

‍

ground there that we can hold ourselves and our friends with. Absolutely. Yeah, there's noticing.

‍

And a word that I've been loving, witnessing. There's been noticing and there's witnessing.

‍

And then there's judging. And as my friend, I want you to notice.

‍

I want you to witness. I want you to tell me, you know, what... looks different and you know

‍

because you because you want me to understand myself better but I don't need your judgment and I

‍

don't need your invalidation and I certainly don't need help feeling ashamed so you know I'm gonna

‍

pick and choose who can notice and who can witness and who can gently hold up a mirror so that I

‍

can understand myself and find greater fulfillment in my relationships and I'm gonna step out of a

‍

relationship with you if I'm gonna be feeling judged and invalidated and you giving me more reason

‍

to feel embarrassed and humiliated for literally how I'm wired, wired and wounded.

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love that i love that that's that's really um really wise i think when we think about who we're

‍

going to walk with and who we're going to let into these tender places so i want to i want to shift

‍

to Kind of we've been circling around it, how we heal and holding intention,

‍

the wiring and the wounded. This isn't going to happen magically healing. What does healing look

‍

like to you? How do you see the goal here? And I know it kind of gets to, I think,

‍

the title of your book, but how do you see the goal here? Yeah, so I've defined wholeheartedness.

‍

I've chosen wholeheartedness as a word. to define a process.

‍

I call, or I define wholeheartedness as an integrative approach to healing.

‍

And, you know, the whole book is about like the different pillars or the different aspects of what

‍

this healing looks like. And kind of similar to, you know, I had mentioned before,

‍

I think this was offline, that I really loved one of your recent episodes about humor being a sign

‍

of healing, being a sign that you're healing, you know, I would say peace,

‍

a sense of peace is a sign that you've been healing.

‍

And so this whole book, wholeheartedness sort of break down and unpack some of the most helpful

‍

aspects of this healing process that ultimately can lead us.

‍

to peace not everything being fixed you know not everything being perfect again but having peace

‍

even while we're kind of moving through the various kind of heartbreaks that life gives us i one of

‍

the stories that i go back to is that relationship i thought i was gonna spend my life with this

‍

guy you know but men certainly are the only people who break our heart right

‍

Friends can, siblings can, parents can, your country can,

‍

all of that. So wholeheartedness is what I call an integrative approach to healing that can lead us

‍

to peace. And it begins with trying to get us to hold,

‍

when we go through something, the opposing realities of our lives.

‍

So in this situation, with this relationship I'm talking about, there was the reality that I was

‍

completely heartbroken and I felt like my love story was over, that this was it.

‍

This was the end. I was saying goodbye to a relationship and it hurt.

‍

And pain has to run its course. But when I say embracing opposing realities in our lives,

‍

there's that truth. I'm heartbroken. I don't see a future. I don't see another way. I don't see the

‍

end. I'm saying goodbye to this relationship, but I'm also... saying hello to a new relationship

‍

with myself. There was clearly, because of this heartbreak,

‍

an ability for me to see the things that I was still believing about myself that I'd always

‍

believed. You know, things about me that could stand to be touched by God,

‍

could stand to be touched by, you know, love, by more internal work.

‍

And I was able to see that. Because of that heartbreak. When I talk about heartbreak being an open

‍

window into our soul, there's something heartbreak can do that other things can't do. And it's

‍

reveal what's deep down under, you know, what can still stand to be healed. And so when I embrace

‍

that fullness of it, that I'm hurting and I'm heartbroken, I'm saying goodbye, but I'm also at the

‍

beginning of saying hello, creating a new relationship with myself. To me,

‍

in that, that's the beginning of finding peace. There's this, but there's also this. You know,

‍

there's this reality, but there's also this reality. And they feel contradictory. But when I can

‍

hold them together, there's something about that that I can gain from.

‍

That's a word. That's beautiful. I am so struck by the fact that your name is Peace.

‍

People have been saying that. It's just so... Because that word is, you just brought such depth to

‍

that word. It's not either or. It's holding the reality of both. Right.

‍

That's incredible. So how would you tell the listener from the book?

‍

I know you provide a very clear path. What are some of the first steps on the path?

‍

Yeah. I'm always going to start with looking at your beliefs.

‍

like in the first place, um, when it comes to healing, well, actually the first,

‍

very first thing that I just, you know, in the name of not hinting at any kind of spiritual

‍

bypassing is to let pain run its course. I mean, for at least a week,

‍

maybe two, I couldn't even think like, don't, I'm not going to read a book. I'm not gonna,

‍

I'm. I can't think straight. I can't see straight. I can't hear anything.

‍

I can hardly pray. I think I looked up to God and I said, how, why? Those were my prayers.

‍

How, why, you know? And my mom's spoken to me and friends spoken to me and they dropped really good

‍

seeds, but pain has to run its course. It's like when we're bleeding, like physically bleeding,

‍

that blood, it's coming out, it's pumping out. And we just have to like, what's the word?

‍

Put pressure and, you know, like not die. Like the goal is not to die.

‍

You know what I mean? When we're broken, the very first thing is try not to die.

‍

And I know I'm being facetious here, but when we're that broken over anything, love,

‍

the end of a marriage, the loss of a dream, you know, whatever, just. breathe,

‍

like just try to get to the next day is the very first step. That's amazing. It's true. You know,

‍

but after that, because heartbreak can help us tap into what's really deep beneath the service.

‍

And a lot of that is some really messed up beliefs we have about ourselves.

‍

The first thing I would tell people is try to grab what those are.

‍

When you're sitting there after heartbreak, after the end of a marriage, after the loss of a hope,

‍

the loss of a dream, a chapter in your life coming to an end and you don't know if you'll ever get

‍

a new beginning, a new chance at it, like love. For me, in that case, was love.

‍

What's really going down? What are you really thinking about yourself in that moment?

‍

What are you really believing about yourself in that moment? Heartbreak has a way of revealing the

‍

toughest, nastiest things that we think about ourselves. And until we can tap into that and

‍

confront that and begin to work on changing that. And in the book, I name sort of like three

‍

specific beliefs I think can kind of summarize a lot of what we all feel.

‍

And I'll just say them, you know, I'm bad, I'm broken, and my life is beyond hope.

‍

when we can kind of grab those and sit with them.

‍

I mean, you know, Dr. Allison, that as soon as we become aware of things, that's the only place we

‍

can start to kind of dust them off and begin to work with them when they become aware to us in the

‍

first place. That's the only place they can be shaken out is when they're aware, when they're held

‍

up to the light. And so that's always going to be my first. what do you believe what what is this

‍

making you believe about yourself right now whatever the heartbreak and disappointment or rejection

‍

is what is it grab that thought because as soon as you hold it up you can start to work with it oh

‍

that's so good that's so good and therein begins the healing it's such a paradox but it's actually

‍

allowing that heartbreak i love how you And again, in the book, you really talk about this broken

‍

heart, you know, and in those pieces, you can actually start to see more clearly. Yes.

‍

It's so good. It's so good. I want to just before we wind down here,

‍

and you've talked about this a little bit, but how did your experience,

‍

your experiences in the plural, but this experience as well, affect your faith?

‍

You've touched on this, but I think many people can begin to maybe not only lose hope in others,

‍

but lose hope in God and bring some of this into their relationship with God. Maybe I'm not worth

‍

God's time.

‍

How has that been played out in your life, and how have you seen that show up spiritually?

‍

Yeah, you kind of named it right there. So, you know, I'm talking about the heartbreak being an

‍

open window and open glass and to our past and to our soul and starting to see more clearly about

‍

what's all underneath, what's all underneath this. Right. And then it finally gives us a chance to

‍

work at it. And one of one thing that I found in addition to me feeling or realizing that I

‍

believe, oh, I'm I'm I'm broken. Like I don't work. My love doesn't work like I.

‍

I don't work. Something about me doesn't work. And that's just what it is, was, you know,

‍

God doesn't work. You know, it's there's or he doesn't work for me.

‍

You know, I believe in God. Somehow it didn't shake my belief like in God and his existence.

‍

But it did shake my belief in like God working things out for me.

‍

There's I feel like. For a lot of us, maybe we can, it's like saying, yeah, God is good,

‍

but it's God good to me. God is faithful, but it's God faithful to me are two very different

‍

things. And I realized one of my beliefs is one of the beliefs under the core was,

‍

yeah, that, you know, God is good and God is real, but I don't know if God is good and real to me.

‍

I don't know why he would let me go. through all of this i've i've like the story of hannah i've

‍

been asking him for one thing it's like you know how they say you have one job You know,

‍

I've been asking God for one thing and I've seen him do magic in all these different areas of my

‍

life. But this one thing, what you have one job, God, and it looked like we were getting close and

‍

nope, you know, I'm alone. You don't care. And the funny thing is,

‍

Allison, and I want to be careful how I talk about this, because I don't know how God's going to

‍

meet every reader that reads this book or every listener. I don't know how God's going to what God

‍

is going to do. in their stories i believe god's going to do something um and i'll tell you that my

‍

life looks completely different now than it looked back then and i and i've seen um there's

‍

redemption in my story that i'm not ready to talk about publicly but i'll you know hint hint

‍

there's there's a lot of redemption in my story that i'm celebrating now and i and i say i want to

‍

be careful talking about it because you know, how you'll hear, Oh, they did it for this person. And

‍

we know, and then we start, I don't know. I just, that's a whole other theological thing. I don't

‍

want to go down. I do believe God is faithful to his children, but I,

‍

in my story, I questioned that. And I believe it was important for me to find,

‍

to work towards finding peace in the unknown to me was the whole point,

‍

not, not what practically God has done for my life now, because I can't sell that to you.

‍

I don't know what God's going to do. I know God's going to do something, but I don't know what's

‍

going to do. But what I can sell you is that you can find peace in the unknown and you can find

‍

peace in the unfolding of your life. Because one truth is, is as long as we're here and we're

‍

longer still breathing, God is not done. We're not done. And there's some,

‍

powerful things that can come out of realizing that. And I hope that for my readers and for my

‍

listeners, they get exactly what they want. But I know what's even more important is how to find

‍

peace in the unknown, in the unwielding, in the uncertain,

‍

and in the unfolding that is a characteristic of each and every one of our lives.

‍

Our stories are still unfolding. So I don't know. I think that was a roundabout way to get to

‍

something. But that's definitely what I want to leave with. That's the heart of the book, that you

‍

can find peace, that your life is still unfolding. It's not over. That is a lie, that it's over.

‍

It is a lie that you're broken and that you don't work and that your life doesn't work. It is a lie

‍

that you are bad. I believe we are good and worthy by grace. And there's some beauty to be found in

‍

all of that.

‍

That's how I'd answer that. That is so powerful. I love that. It's like you're refusing to tie the

‍

happy bow because we don't know how that plays out. And it doesn't always play out the same for

‍

everybody. That doesn't mean that we don't have that. gift that comes it's just you said that so

‍

well Dr. Peace you are truly a doctor of peace that was a word I just felt that in my bones and it

‍

I can tell it's coming from your hard-earned wisdom your expertise you know all the different

‍

layers of whole I I can feel from you the wholeheartedness and that means a lot to me yeah yeah I

‍

could feel just It's just really powerful. Where can my listeners find your work?

‍

Because I want them to find you and your work and your book and all that you're doing. Yeah, thank

‍

you for that question. So of course you can, right now I'm most active on Instagram, so you can

‍

find me at itspisamadi. I'm sure you'll leave those details. But I really love people to check out

‍

this book. I'm so excited about this book. It's not my first book, but it is my personal,

‍

most personal book thus far. I will say that this book, you know, wasn't about establishing me as

‍

an author, testing the waters. I wanted to write an honest book about healing.

‍

I'm really excited for people to find gems. I believe there are gems in this.

‍

And you can find this book anywhere where books are online. It's Amazon, Target,

‍

Barnes & Noble. Any online retailer, go to your favorite. You can grab it. But you can get all

‍

those links directly from my Instagram page. I'd love for you to give it a chance. I cannot

‍

recommend it more. We will link to it in today's show notes. We'll link to it on our website, The

‍

Wholehearted Way by Dr. Pisa Mahdi. It is well worth, if you're a listener of this podcast,

‍

you will love this book. It is just your story and your expertise just in this wholehearted way.

‍

It's just so beautiful. And I'm so grateful that you are sharing your wisdom with the world,

‍

sharing your wisdom with us today. Thank you for taking the time. I am just so grateful for you.

‍

Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Allison. This was a bucket list to talk with you and on your podcast

‍

because I love it. So thank you for having me and thank you for sharing your listeners with me.

‍

We're grateful. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean

‍

so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you

‍

listen to or watch podcasts and click the plus or follow button. That'll ensure you don't miss an

‍

episode and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you leave a

‍

five-star review. And be sure to join us each weekday for the best of you every day, a brief daily

‍

reflection to help you start your mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become

‍

the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

‍

What if trauma isn’t just about what happened to you—but what your body learned about safety in relationships?

At its core, trauma isn’t just about what happened to you. It’s about what your body learned in relationships—especially when safety was broken. Whether those wounds began early in life or emerged later through betrayal, loss, or disappointment, your nervous system adapts in ways that are meant to protect you.

If you’ve ever wondered why it’s hard to feel safe in relationships… this episode will help you understand why—and where healing begins.

You’ll learn:

• The 3 ways trauma reshapes your sense of safety
• The deeper story behind patterns of anxiety, shutdown, or people-pleasing
• The patterns your nervous system uses to protect you (without you realizing it)
• The hidden ways trauma can impact your relationship with God
• 4 shifts that begin to restore safety

This conversation offers a compassionate, faith-rooted path forward—helping you understand how your soul and body respond to broken trust, and how safety can be restored over time.

More Resources:

Connect with @dralisoncook on Instagram

Want to go deeper? Join 80,000+ soul menders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices here. 

If you liked this episode, then you’ll love:

Episode 179: Building Wise Trust - How to Protect Your Heart Without Closing It Off

Episode 188: The Healing Power of Safe People (Not Just Safe Spaces)

Episode 191: The 5 Most Important Things I've Learned About Faith, Attachment, & The Inner Life

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here

‍

Don't forget to browse this week's sponsors, who make it possible for me to bring you these resources for free + provide you with additional discounts!

• Quince - How you dress affects your mood and you can trust that Quince has you covered in every day sustainable wardrobe staples. Go to ⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
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*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

‍

Transcript:

‍

At its core, trauma is about broken safety in relationships, where your body learns that connection

‍

is no longer safe. When betrayal happens later in life, it can feel like the ground just falls

‍

away. beneath your feet because the assumptions you carried about the world that people are

‍

basically trustworthy, that relationships tend to be safe, suddenly get shaken. And your body

‍

responds to that shock in very real ways. Healing often involves not just healing our relationships

‍

with other people, but slowly allowing our understanding of who God is to heal as well.

‍

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm so glad you're here

‍

with me today. Today's deep dive episode is part of what I've been calling our pillar episodes.

‍

These are episodes where we step back and talk about some of the core themes that run through so

‍

much of the work we do together here at The Best of You. Earlier this year, we talked about

‍

connection, how we learn closeness and boundaries in relationships. We talked about formation and

‍

attachment, some of the deeper ways our souls are shaped over time. And we talked about joy and

‍

play, about the importance of recovering delight and lightness in our lives. Today,

‍

we're turning toward another pillar that sits underneath so many of our conversations here on the

‍

podcast. And that's the theme of trauma healing. and safety. Over the years on this podcast and in

‍

my work with so many people, I've noticed something again and again. When people begin asking

‍

deeper questions about healing, so often what they're really asking about is safety.

‍

How do I feel safe again? How do I trust again? How do I live with an open heart in a world where

‍

trust so often gets broken? And honestly, this question has felt so close to home for me this week.

‍

Because over the past month, I've just been struck again and again by how much pain so many people

‍

are carrying. I've talked with someone navigating a painful romantic breakup. Another person

‍

grieving the loss of a friendship that meant a great deal to them. Someone else feeling betrayed by

‍

an institution they trusted. An organization they had invested years of their life in.

‍

Different stories. circumstances, but underneath them all is the same ache that so many of us know

‍

so well, the ache of broken trust. And it reminded me of something that is almost universally true

‍

about what it means to be human. If you live long enough in this world,

‍

your trust will be broken at some point. Sometimes it happens early in life from your earliest For

‍

some people, your first experiences of trust with parents or caregivers were complicated,

‍

inconsistent, or painful. And in those cases, your whole nervous system can grow up learning that

‍

the people who are supposed to be safe might not actually be safe. Other times,

‍

the wounds come later. You might have grown up in a fairly stable home. You might have trusted

‍

people easily for years, and for the most part, they came through. And then somewhere along the

‍

way, a betrayal, a divorce, a painful rupture in a friendship, a betrayal in a church or workplace,

‍

it can feel like the ground suddenly disappears beneath you. The truth is,

‍

one of the things I often remind people is that betrayal is part of the human story. Even Jesus was

‍

betrayed. Someone he loved. Someone he trusted. Someone who had walked closely beside him.

‍

So the real question isn't whether we will encounter pain or betrayal. The real question is what do

‍

we do when it happens? How do our souls heal? How do our bodies learn safety again after trust has

‍

been broken? Because trauma, whether it happens early in life or later in life, has a way of

‍

shaping the way we move through the world. It shapes how our bodies respond to other people.

‍

It shapes how easily we trust. other people, and sometimes it even shapes how we relate to God.

‍

So today I want to spend some time talking about what I've learned over the years about healing,

‍

trauma, and safety. Not in a heavy or overwhelming way, but in a way that helps us understand our

‍

own souls, our God-created souls a little better, and helps us move toward healing,

‍

put ourselves on the path toward healing and safety and goodness. Because the truth is,

‍

while betrayal is part of our stories, healing. As we begin, as we talk about trauma and healing,

‍

I want to start with one simple idea that can be really clarifying. At its core, trauma is about

‍

broken safety in relationships. Something happens in a relationship or across a series of

‍

relationships where your body learns that connection is no longer safe. Now,

‍

trauma can take many different forms, but over the years, I've noticed that most people's stories

‍

tend to fall into a few common categories. And sometimes just hearing these categories can help you

‍

locate your own story with a little more clarity and compassion. So I want to start by walking

‍

through three of the most common ways these wounds of trust show up in our lives. The first

‍

category is what we might call early attachment wounds. This happens when the people who were

‍

supposed to be your first safe place in the world were not. consistently safe.

‍

Maybe your caregivers were unpredictable. Some days they were warm and loving. Other days they were

‍

withdrawn, angry, or overwhelmed. Maybe there was emotional neglect, not necessarily dramatic big T

‍

abuse, but a kind of absence where your feelings weren't noticed or responded to. Maybe you grew up

‍

with a lot of criticism, messages that you were too much or not enough or Maybe you learned very

‍

early that the safest way to survive your home was to walk on eggshells, to constantly scan the

‍

room and adjust yourself depending on someone else's mood. When these are the environments we grow

‍

up in, something very important happens in the nervous system. Our bodies learn a lesson about

‍

safety. And that lesson often sounds something like this. Someone saying they love me doesn't

‍

necessarily mean it's safe. And that's a really hard lesson for a nervous system to carry.

‍

Because as human beings, we are wired for attachment. We're wired to need closeness and connection.

‍

But when closeness has also been a place where we've gotten hurt, our bodies develop strategies to

‍

try to protect us. This is where you might see patterns like hypervigilance. You're always scanning

‍

for what might go wrong. people-pleasing. You learn very early that if you can keep everyone else

‍

happy, maybe you'll stay safe. Or controlling tendencies,

‍

trying to manage every variable in the environment so that nothing unpredictable happens.

‍

Or a deep fear of abandonment that can show up in relationships later in life.

‍

In a recent conversation on the podcast, Melanie Shankle shared with us about what it was like for

‍

her to grow up in an environment where her nervous system learned exactly this lesson. That the

‍

person saying, I love you, I'm safe for you, I'm here for you, was also the very person who was

‍

hurting her the most. And when that's the case, your body adapts the best way it knows how.

‍

When you're a child, you don't know how to make sense of that dissonance. So your nervous system

‍

learns to survive. And these early attachment wounds shape how you learn. to trust other people

‍

later in life. Now, this isn't the only way that trauma shows up. The second category is what we

‍

might call relational betrayal that happens later in life. And this one is really important to talk

‍

about. Because sometimes when people hear conversations about trauma, they assume it only applies

‍

if you had a difficult childhood. But that's not always the case. Some people actually grew up in

‍

relatively stable homes. You trusted the adults in your life. You learned that people could be

‍

safe. And then somewhere along the line later in life, maybe as a teen, maybe as a young adult,

‍

maybe well into adulthood, something happens that completely disrupts that sense of safety.

‍

Maybe it's a divorce or an affair. that comes out of nowhere. Maybe it's a betrayal inside a church

‍

or ministry environment that you trusted deeply. Maybe it's a friendship that suddenly fractures in

‍

a painful and confusing way. Maybe it's an institutional betrayal where a place that was supposed

‍

to care for people instead protects itself. When betrayal happens later in life,

‍

it can feel like the ground just... away beneath your feet because the assumptions you carried

‍

about the world that people are basically trustworthy, that relationships tend to be safe, suddenly

‍

get shaken. And your body responds to that shock in very real ways.

‍

You might feel anxious in relationships where you once felt relaxed. You might find yourself

‍

questioning your own judgment, doubting yourself, second-guessing yourself. You might feel a sense

‍

of grief, confusion, even anger about what happened. This is normal. It's a healthy response.

‍

Again, none of these responses means there's something wrong with you. They mean your body is

‍

responding to a rupture in trust. Now, there's a third pathway that's also really common,

‍

and it's what is sometimes called accumulated relational stress, or also what is sometimes

‍

described as complex trauma. And this kind of trauma isn't one dramatic moment or one big event or

‍

one huge betrayal, right? One moment of having the ground. cut out from underneath you.

‍

It's more like a pattern that unfolds over time. It's like a million tiny paper cuts.

‍

Maybe it's years of subtle criticism that slowly erodes your sense of confidence over time.

‍

Maybe it's rampant bullying. during your middle school years or your high school years or your

‍

elementary school years. Maybe it's workplace dynamics where you constantly feel undermined or

‍

dismissed. Maybe it's spiritual manipulation or pressure inside a faith community where your

‍

questions or boundaries weren't welcomed. In these situations, the nervous system isn't responding

‍

to one giant shock. Instead, it's responding to a series of smaller relational wounds.

‍

And over time, these experiences accumulate. I sometimes say it this way. Sometimes trauma isn't a

‍

hurricane. Sometimes it's years of tiny storms. And after enough storms,

‍

your nervous system begins to adapt. You may start bracing for criticism before it even comes.

‍

You may assume people are disappointed in you even when they aren't. You may begin to withdraw from

‍

relationships because it simply feels safer not to risk being hurt again. The bottom line is that

‍

our nervous systems are shaped by the relationships we move through in this life. And when safety

‍

has been broken, whether early in life, later in life, or slowly over time,

‍

our bodies develop strategies to try to protect us. And these strategies are actually incredibly

‍

brilliant. They're signs that your nervous system has been doing its best to help you survive.

‍

And understanding that that is what's happening is one of the first steps. toward healing.

‍

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As we begin to understand what's happening in our nervous systems and how these wounds of trust are

‍

showing up in our lives, the next question becomes, what actually happens inside of us when safety

‍

is broken? Because trauma doesn't just live in our memories, right? It shows up in our bodies and

‍

our emotions and in the way we move through relationships. There are a few really important things

‍

that tend to happen inside the soul when we experience broken trust.

‍

The first thing is this. Your body learns protection. When something painful or threatening

‍

happens, your nervous system automatically begins working to keep you safe. It's amazing. It's a

‍

part of how God designed us, right? But it isn't always conscious. You don't necessarily

‍

consciously decide to go into survival mode. It's something your body does for you.

‍

You may have heard about people talk about the four primary trauma responses or fear responses.

‍

Fight. flight, freeze, and fawn. Fight is when your system moves toward confrontation.

‍

You become defensive, argumentative, or quick to anger. Your body is trying to push threats away.

‍

So you move toward conflict, right? And it doesn't always show up through loud arguments or

‍

yelling. That's what people don't understand. Often it's that quick to criticize, quick to defend,

‍

quick to put your guard up. That's a form of fight response. Your nervous system gets activated and

‍

you move into overdrive, even with folks who may well be trustworthy. The second one most of us

‍

have heard of is flight. This is when your nervous system moves you toward escape. You might become

‍

restless, anxious. You might stay constantly busy, always trying to move away from whatever feels

‍

threatening. Think about someone who's always kind of a little bit on eggshells, right? They're

‍

never confrontational. They're never moving toward people. They're always kind of staying busy,

‍

dancing around in the background, trying to avoid any threat, right?

‍

And it's just as exhausting. Your nervous system is just as activated, but it's there to keep you

‍

safe through flight. Now, freeze is when the body shuts down. You might feel numb,

‍

stuck, or unable to act. It's almost like you're frozen. And in this case, it's almost like your

‍

nervous system can't choose between fight or flight. And so you kind of feel stuck, frozen,

‍

blank. You can't find words. You can't figure out what to do. You feel numb inside. And again,

‍

this is your nervous system trying to protect you, but not knowing how to move, how to shift into

‍

the gear that will eventually get you to safety. And the last response is called the fawn response.

‍

And this term was coined by Pete Walker. It's a little bit more recent. I talk about it in The Best

‍

of You. And here in Wyoming, we sometimes bump baby fawns. It's amazing, right?

‍

In the wilderness when you're hiking. And baby fawns don't run. They don't...

‍

They don't flee. They stay camouflaged. They're curled up as if you could barely see them.

‍

It'd be so easy to just kind of bump into them. And that's how they stay safe. They stay hidden in

‍

that way, camouflage from the other animals. And our fond response is like this.

‍

It's when our nervous system tries to keep the peace by pleasing others,

‍

by staying small, by camouflaging ourselves, by smoothing things.

‍

over, by accommodating, by adapting yourself to avoid conflict.

‍

Now remember, just like the other responses, this so often happens outside of your conscious

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awareness. I have noticed this repeatedly in my own life as an adult where I'll just flip into that

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switch. ever so subtly, and it looks like being nice, right? You just read the cues,

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you know what the other person wants to hear, and you try to make them happy as a way of staying

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safe. Now, it's not all bad, it's adaptive, and it's very effective, especially for women,

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especially for women in faith communities, because we often get rewarded for this. But there's a

‍

difference between being truly kind, which is about exerting sort of a kindness and a compassion

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towards someone else, and the reality of trying to please someone to keep ourselves safe.

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under the radar, out of their realm of threat. So it can become really problematic when we don't

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know that we're doing it and we give over to pleasing and codependent patterns versus that very

‍

important skill of being able to stand in our own space and disagree or say no or very politely

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excuse ourselves, right? You don't have to be mean, but to be advocating for our true sense of self

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and autonomy and agency. Here's the thing. All of these responses have the same goal.

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The goal is self-protection. Your body is trying to keep you safe. And this is so important to

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understand because so many people look at their reactions and assume something is wrong with them.

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They think, why do I get so anxious in relationships? Why do I shut down when conflict happens?

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Why do I keep trying to please everyone? What's wrong with me? How many of you have felt that way

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at times? What's wrong with me? Why can't I just show up as myself and be normal?

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That's what I'll say to myself. Why can't I just be normal? But what I want you to hear me say.

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today is this. Your nervous system is not broken. It's trying to protect you.

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Those responses have developed for a reason. At some point in your story,

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they've probably helped you survive something that was painful or confusing or overwhelming.

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And the truth is you can teach your nervous system that you are the adult in the room and you can

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now make the decisions for yourself. Now, there's a second thing that happens when trust is broken,

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and that's the different parts of us step in to help. Now, I often talk about this idea of parts in

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my work because it gives us a compassionate way to understand our inner world. And some of these

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subconscious responses, instead of thinking of yourself as one simple unified personality,

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you begin to notice that there are actually different parts of you that respond in different ways,

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depending on what's happening. A part of you. gets defensive. A part of you It freezes,

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right? A part of you wants to run away. A part of you plays small. But other parts of you are mad

‍

about it. They don't want you to act that way. And it helps us understand that we're complex. We're

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multifaceted beings. So in my book with Kimberly Miller, Boundaries for Your Soul, we describe

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three categories of parts. And it's based on the internal family systems model of therapy.

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And the first category are these manager parts. And these are the parts of us that try to stay

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ahead of danger. They try to prevent something bad from happening. These are the parts of us that

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become vigilant. They scan the room. They analyze conversations. They try to anticipate what might

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go wrong. Sometimes they show up as perfectionism. If I can just get everything right, maybe

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nothing bad will happen. Sometimes it shows up as control. If I can just manage the environment,

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manage the relationship, manage everyone's emotions, maybe I can keep. things safe.

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These manager parts of us are trying to prevent pain before it ever happens but when pain does

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break through anyway as it does another kind of part tends to step in.

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And these are what are called firefighter parts. They're like firefighters. They come in after the

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flames of pain surface. And these ones move quickly to put out those emotional fires.

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When something feels overwhelming, maybe grief, shame, anxiety, these parts jump in to help us

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cope. Sometimes they show up as withdrawal. You pull away from other people or as numbing.

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You scroll endlessly, distract yourself, overwork, overconsume, over... Sometimes they show up as

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anger, right? If you think about it, a burst of anger lashing out can make you feel better in the

‍

moment. It creates distance, which can feel really good, like you got something for your efforts,

‍

right? But underneath all of these protective parts, there is another part of us that carries the

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original pain. And we call these in Boundaries for Your Soul and in IFS,

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Exiled parts. These are the parts of us that carry the grief, the sadness.

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The pain, the fear, the loneliness, the sense of being hurt or rejected or abandoned.

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These are the tender places inside of us that learned something about the world when trust was

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broken, that I'm not safe, that I'm not good enough, that I'm not worth care, that I'm not lovable,

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that I'm not fundamentally safe or okay. And these parts of us carry those burdens deep inside.

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often outside of our conscious awareness.

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And what's so important to remember is that none of these parts of your soul are bad.

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They're all trying in their own ways to protect something precious inside of you.

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Before we get to healing, there's a third impact of trauma that we don't talk about as often, but I

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think it matters, especially for those of us who are people of faith. And that's this.

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Trauma can change the way we experience God. When relationships are safe,

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it's easier for our nervous systems to experience God as safe. But when relationships have been

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confusing, or painful. It can make our relationship with God feel complicated, too. Maybe a part of

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you knows with your head that God is good or that God is trustworthy, but to another part of you,

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trust feels risky. You might find yourself wondering, can I really trust God?

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Why didn't God stop what happened? Why do I still feel anxious or wounded or unloved if God really

‍

loved me? These questions are not signs of a weak faith. They are signs that your nervous system

‍

has experienced something painful in the realm of trust. And if the people who represented safety

‍

in your life, parents, mentors, spiritual leaders, adults, were unsafe in some way,

‍

then it makes sense that trusting God might feel complicated too. Our images of God are often...

‍

through the lens of our earliest relationships, which means this. Healing often involves not just

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healing our relationships with other people, but slowly allowing our understanding of who God is to

‍

heal as well. When we step back and look at all of this together, we begin to see something really

‍

important. When trust is broken, your soul adapts. Your body develops protective responses and

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different parts of you step in to manage pain. And sometimes even your relationship with God gets

‍

tangled up in these wounds as well. And here's the good news. None of these responses means that

‍

something is wrong with you. They mean that our systems are doing its best to survive. And

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understanding that opens the door to the next question. How does healing actually happen?

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So here's the most important thing to understand about healing. It almost never happens through

‍

force. or willpower. It doesn't happen through beating yourself up. It doesn't happen through

‍

criticizing yourself for having some of these responses. Healing starts with compassion.

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It's a slow process of restoring safety in the places where safety was lost.

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And here's the good news. You can become that re-parenting, that re-attaching figure for your own

‍

soul in partnership with God. So here are a few ways that this can happen.

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It starts with teaching yourself what safety feels like. Your nervous system can learn to

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experience moments where it is safe. Moments where it learns that it doesn't have to stay on high

‍

alert all the time. Sometimes that safety begins right inside your own body.

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It might be as simple as learning right now as you're listening is taking a moment to slow down

‍

your breathing. Learning to notice when you're overwhelmed and giving yourself permission to pause.

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Learning to listen to the signals your body is sending you instead of overriding them.

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It might mean right there in your car or right now as you're listening to this podcast,

‍

noticing what are the cues my body is sending me? What's happening?

‍

It starts with awareness. You begin to attune to your own soul, to your own body,

‍

like you might attune to a child you love. Think about how you attune to your own children.

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You notice their unspoken cues. You notice their downcast eyes, the slump in their shoulder,

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the bubbling over of laughter at times, right? You notice that and you mirror that to someone you

‍

love. You begin to do that for your own soul and your own body. Some part of me is downcast.

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I don't know why, but I want to get curious about that. Instead of shaming yourself or trying to

‍

fix yourself, you start to notice. This is what's happening right now.

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I'm right here with myself as it happens. This is how you begin to retrain your body to learn

‍

safety. You learn to become safe for yourself. Sometimes safety begins through small experiences of

‍

being understood by someone else. Maybe someone listens without trying to fix you and you notice

‍

what that feels like inside. Maybe someone sits with your pain instead of minimizing it.

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They're just with you in it. Maybe someone respects your boundaries and it surprises you.

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You anticipated that they might get mad, but you did it anyway. And instead of lashing out at you,

‍

they say, I get it. I'll honor that. And you notice what that feels like in your body,

‍

right? It's not just that it happens. It's that you allow yourself to become consciously aware that

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it's happening. That was safety. What that person did there felt safe to me.

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I want to notice what that feels like in my body. They seem small,

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some of these moments, but they matter when we become more aware of what it feels like in our

‍

bodies. Here's the thing. Every experience of safety begins to teach your nervous system something

‍

new. It teaches your body this is what connection can feel like when it's safe again.

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Even after a rupture with someone who's safe, you maybe have a conflict, but you work through it.

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You say what you feel. They say what they feel. You arrive at a deeper understanding.

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You're so relieved that you hurt each other out, that you came back to a place of peace. Oh,

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does that feel good in the nervous system? We never had that experience before. This is what safety

‍

feels like. You learn it and you grow it and then you move toward it consistently.

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Sometimes this kind of relational safety happens with the therapist, right? This is what the

‍

process of therapy is. It's relearning what it feels like to have that healthy.

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Attachment, not that that person validates necessarily everything you feel or think, but that that

‍

person stays with you, showing you what it's like to work through honesty, kindness,

‍

and repair. Sometimes it can happen in community spaces where you can show up as your real self

‍

instead of performing or hiding. I've talked with so many people about what it feels like after

‍

leaving a toxic system where they felt like they had to suppress themselves or couldn't speak up or

‍

would get punished if they thought a certain way. And then they find themselves in a community, not

‍

that's perfect because they aren't perfect, but a community where. they can be themselves. And even

‍

if people disagree, there's a kindness, there's an honoring that happens, right? Even if you have

‍

to set a boundary, there's an honoring of that, that you just feel in the culture of that system.

‍

Right there, there are two ways that we can experience healing. One is to become a compassionate

‍

witness to your own experiences, to begin to notice the movements of your own soul,

‍

to notice when a part of you is acting up. Again, not to fix, but to notice,

‍

to witness, to get curious about. And then the other way is through other people.

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We are often wounded by other people and we are also healed through other people,

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through ordinary moments of kindness, through other people. showing up for us in ways that surprise

‍

us and teach our nervous system how to heal and how to trust again. Healing rarely happens in

‍

isolation, right? It happens as we slowly experience safe connection again, both from ourselves and

‍

from other people. And this leads us to the third part of healing. Healing is, I believe,

‍

a part of our spiritual formation. It's the ongoing work of becoming more like Jesus.

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In other words, the places where we've been wounded are often the very places

‍

Careful here when I say that. I'm not saying that God causes the pain, right, so that he can heal

‍

us. Broken trust, betrayal, and relational wounds aren't what God intends for our lives.

‍

But what I am saying is that God meets us inside these wounded places, inside the grief,

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inside the betrayal, inside the confusion, inside the questions. And over time,

‍

something begins to shift. These parts of us. have been carrying pain begin to experience

‍

compassion. These parts of us that have been bracing begin to soften. These parts of us that have

‍

believed we were alone begin to discover that we were never alone after all. And slowly over time,

‍

our souls begin to experience safety again. Safety with ourselves, safety with other people,

‍

and safety with God. Now again, it doesn't mean we'll never be hurt again,

‍

but it does mean we will learn how to be with ourselves and stay with ourselves through the hurt.

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And we become, over time, more resilient. I want to close today with something really simple that

‍

you can reflect on today, even while you're listening. Earlier, I mentioned the idea that many of

‍

our reactions are actually signals. They're places where our nervous system is telling us something

‍

important. Instead of judging these reactions today,

‍

what if you approach them with curiosity? And it's really as simple as noticing and getting

‍

curious. I notice I'm sad today. I wonder what that's about.

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I notice I get really defensive with that other person. I wonder what that's about.

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I notice I'm resentful today. I want to get curious about that.

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I notice I'm exhausted deep inside. I wonder what's going on inside my soul.

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This way of attuning. to your inner world, not to fix, not to analyze,

‍

not to shame, but to be with is an amazing aspect of how God designed our souls that we can stay

‍

with ourselves. We can invite the power of God's presence to meet us right there.

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And through doing that, we can become more authentic with other people instead of hiding.

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these parts of us, instead of trying to shove them aside, we bring them into our conscious

‍

awareness. And as you practice that today, just noticing, getting curious what's happening in your

‍

soul, inviting God into that space, you might even think about who's someone I could share this

‍

with. Not to analyze or fix again, but to say, you know, a part of me is a little sad today.

‍

And then just notice what happens. How do they respond to that? Does it feel like care?

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Does it feel like pressure? Doesn't necessarily mean that they're a bad person if they're not the

‍

right person to show up for you in that moment. But you're learning to test. You're learning to see

‍

how does your soul respond? What feels safe? And you become an advocate for yourself.

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Because the truth. is this trauma is what happens when safety is broken but healing is what happens

‍

when safety is slowly restored moment by moment day by day step by step awareness by awareness it

‍

often doesn't happen in one big flash it happens in these tiny moments of getting curious of

‍

extending compassion of reaching and learning and noticing and pulling back not because you're

‍

operating out of protectiveness, but because, oh, that didn't feel good. That's interesting.

‍

I wonder what that's about. These small moments of noticing matter so much more.

‍

then you might realize they are the places where healing begins. Because these different moments

‍

where we're activated or we're experiencing emotions or feelings or thoughts that we wish we

‍

didn't, they are not your enemies. These are actually signals. They're invitations to slow down and

‍

become curious about what's happening inside your soul. Instead of shaming yourself for these

‍

reactions, you begin to ask yourself gentler. Questions. Questions that open the doorway to

‍

understanding and eventually to healing. As we close today, I want to leave you with a few

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questions to reflect on. You can linger over them right now as you're listening, or you can pause

‍

this audio or video, whatever you're watching, and take some time to journal what you notice.

‍

Just notice what stirs up inside of you. Where in your life have you experienced broken trust?

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How did a part of you learn to step in and protect you when that happened?

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What does it feel like to extend compassion to that part of you?

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And imagine inviting God to meet you in that place even now.

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Because so very often these places where we feel the most tenderness, these places where our

‍

protective patterns show up the strongest, these are hues, they're signals,

‍

our soul ascending, that there's a journey toward healing right here.

‍

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you

‍

take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to or

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watch podcasts and click the plus or follow button. That'll ensure you don't miss an episode and it

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helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you leave a five-star review.

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And be sure to join us each weekday for the best of you every day, a brief daily reflection to help

‍

you start your mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become the best of who you

‍

are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

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