Getting Unstuck: When Parts of You Are in Conflict (And How to Find Relief)
Episode Notes
What if the reason you feel stuck… isn’t because something is wrong with you, but because different parts of you are pulling in different directions?
We all know that feeling—one part of you wants to follow through, while another part resists. And often, one side takes over… leaving you with regret or confusion afterward.
In this episode, Dr. Alison is joined by IFS therapist and best-selling author Jenna Riemersma to explore what’s really happening beneath that inner conflict and how to respond differently.
Because the goal isn’t to fight those parts of you.
It’s to understand them.
Together, they walk through Jenna’s simple, practical framework that helps you move toward yourself with curiosity and compassion instead of shame or control.
If you’ve ever felt stuck in cycles of overthinking, self-criticism, or reacting in ways you later regret… this conversation will help you understand why and what to do in the moment.
You’ll explore:
- Why the parts of you that frustrate you most may be trying to help
- What keeps you stuck in the same inner battles again and again
- The surprising shift that can calm the conflict inside
- How to know when to share what’s happening inside you—and when it’s wiser to protect yourself
- What real relief can look like when you stop fighting yourself
This is a simple but powerful shift: You don’t have to control or silence parts of yourself to change.
More Resources:
Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram
Want to go deeper with parts work? Join 80,000+ soul tenders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices on parts work here.
Connect with Jenna here.
Get Jenna’s new book, Move Toward.
Get her free Guided Meditations and Journaling Worksheets here.
Want to hear more like this? Start here:
Episode 160: When You Feel Unwanted—Meeting the Parts of You That Long to Belong with IFS Therapist Tammy Sollenberger
Episode 108: Inside Out—Internal Family Systems, Therapy, and High-Performing Protectors with Jenna Riemersma
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
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TRANSCRIPT
One part of me wants to eat all the Oreos and another part of me wants me to go to the gym and
those two parts of me are at war with each other. What happens is one part of us will take over and
we will react from that part of us and then afterwards we'll have regret or remorse.
And it turns out that just like with a friend, when we listen to them and find out what they want
us to know and find out if there's anything they need from us, they calm down and they feel
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of The Best of You. I'm Dr.
Allison, and I'm so excited about today's conversation. If you've been around this podcast for a
while, you know that I talk a lot about the work of Understanding what's happening inside of us,
the inner conflicts, the tension, the parts of ourselves that sometimes pull us in completely
different directions. And if you read my book with Kimberly Miller. Boundaries for Your Soul.
I know many of you have. I know that's a book that has brought many of you to this place. So you
know that making this inner work practical and accessible is something I care a lot about.
It's a big part of why I do what I do here on the podcast and in everything I do. So when I come
across others who are doing a similar kind of work and doing it beautifully, I get really excited.
And this is exactly what my guest today has done with her brand new book. My dear friend and fellow
therapist, Jenna Reemserma, is back on the podcast today. And I have so been looking forward to
this conversation. I can't wait to share it with you. If you've caught... previous episode,
you know that she is just such a warm and grounded voice in this space. She has this gift of taking
concepts that can feel really clinical or overwhelming and make them feel like something you can
actually do. Today, in the grocery store line, in the middle of a hard conversation with your
spouse, she meets us right where we are. Jenna is a licensed professional counselor. She's a
certified IFS therapist. That's Internal Family Systems, which is the model that has deeply shaped
both of our work. And she's also an IFS-approved clinical consultant. She's a certified sex
addiction therapist supervisor, and she's trained in EMDR and somatic therapy. She's also teaching
faculty for the International Institute. Trauma and Addictional Professionals. Jenna is just a
wealth of wisdom and helpful resources and insights, as you'll hear today.
And she's also a bestselling author. Her first book, All Together You, is an integration of IFS
with Christian spirituality, and then All Together Us, which looks at how IFS connects with other
therapeutic and community modalities. And today, we're going to talk about Jenna's brand new book.
Toward, a simplified IFS therapy tool to welcome all parts of you. And I want to tell you,
I work in this space. I read a lot of books in this space. And I read a lot of books on inner work,
on parts work, as you can imagine. And this is one of the most accessible, most practical I've come
across. Jenna has distilled the IFS model down to three simple steps that she'll walk us through
today that you can actually remember and use in real time when you're activated,
when you're triggered, when a part of you has taken over and you need something now in this moment,
not next week in your therapist's office, but now. And what I love about this conversation is that
we don't just stay in the theoretical. We get into how this work changes, the way you show up in
your marriage, in your past. in those relationships where things feel stuck or painful or even
unsafe. Jenna talks about what to do when the person across from you is safe.
enough to be vulnerable with about what you're feeling, about what you're learning inside.
And she also talks about what to do when they're not safe, right? When you actually need to protect
yourself. And this is such an important distinction because I hear from so many of you who are
navigating all kinds of relationships, right? Some that are safe and healthy and you just want
better tools for communication, but others of you who are navigating relationships where it's not
safe to be super vulnerable. right? And Jenna walks us through both. So whether you are brand new
to this idea of having different parts of you in her parts work, or whether you've been doing this
work for years, and you just want a simpler, quicker tool to reach for, or maybe to share with
someone you love to let them know about this work that you've been doing, this episode has
something for you. I am thrilled to bring you my conversation with Jenna Reemserma.
Well, I'm so thrilled you're here. I love these chances to have you on the podcast. So thanks for
being here. Thank you for having me. I love getting to be with you and to talk about these
wonderful topics. I know. It's always such a treat to get to have people from my real life world on
the podcast who are doing such great things. And so one of the things I love about what you do,
Jenna, is you make this whole world of inner parts work so accessible.
And this new book is one of the more accessible books I've read.
So for my listeners, if you're new or even if you're just wanting to really understand what is
actually happening inside of us as we connect to these parts of ourselves, this is such a great
resource. So to start, I want to just kind of start at that very top level.
When you're feeling conflicted inside, which is, I think, something a lot of us relate to.
When I'm feeling pulled in different directions, I can't figure out, you know,
kind of sometimes it feels like I'm spinning or I feel like I'm just stuck or overwhelmed, but, you
know, just this inner tension. What is actually happening beneath the surface?
I love this question because this is such a universal experience. I probably experienced this 10
times a day where one part of me wants to eat all the Oreos and another part of me wants me to go
to the gym. And those two parts of me are at war with each other. And it's very,
very common and normal to have different parts of ourselves that have different perspectives,
different goals for us that are at war with each other. Maybe we have a child who is in a baseball
league and the coach is being really hard on them. And we think, gosh, there's a part of me that
really wants to let that coach have it and tell him to get off my kids back. And another part of
me, you know, wants me to not say anything and not create any waves and those two parts are really
at war and very often what happens is one part of us will take over and we will react from that
part of us and then afterwards we'll have regret or remorse so if we might you know the part of me
The part of us that wants to let the coach have it might take over, and then later there might be
regrets. Or the part of me that wants to eat all the cookies might take over, and later the part of
me that wanted me to go to the gym is pretty mad about that. So this is a really normal experience.
And rather than either letting those parts just take us over and run our lives and then having
regrets later or trying to fight against them, which is really common.
If we try to fight against the parts of ourselves or of others that we don't like,
they tend to fight back. that which we resist as Carl Jung said persists.
And so the harder we try not to eat all the Oreos, drink all the wine, buy all the shoes,
the more we tend to do it in the long run. And so fighting against these parts of ourselves only
makes our suffering worse. And it turns out that a really counterintuitive way of helping this
inner battle is to do the opposite. to move toward these parts of ourselves with curiosity and
compassion. I love it. So this frames kind of your unique approach,
sort of your distillation of this internal family systems model that you and I both have been so
shaped by. The name of the book is Move Toward. And so talk to us a little bit about what do you
mean by move toward and move against? That's kind of what you were just describing. Go a little
deeper into that. What are we, what does that look like in real life when you're in the middle of
that, which is so relatable, right? You know, I'm locked in this and, and you're exactly right. I
just, I just want to hate the part of me that wants to down the bag of cookies. That feels like the
right thing to do, right? That's a bad part of me, you know, and just beat myself up for it, right?
That feels like, you know, the righteous, you know, action. Why would I move toward that part of
me?
What we need to do in those moments, what does that look like? Yeah, well, when we move against or
fight against a part of ourselves that's feeling or doing something that we don't like,
it tends to, as we said, fight back. And I've really seen this a lot in my other area of clinical
specialization, which is addiction. And when our approach to addiction work is to fight against or
move against the part of our client that's engaged in the addictive behavior, what tends to happen
is maybe they get sober for a period of time. And then that part tends to come roaring back.
If that's the only thing we do is just fight against it, try to lock it in the basement. Just don't
drink. Just stop it. Stop doing that. And it tends to take back over with ferocity.
And that's why relapse rates are so high with addiction. One of many reasons,
but I think that's a key one. And this really transformed my practice when I became trained in IFS
and began to realize that actually fighting against these parts of our clients,
it was exhausting. It wasn't really working. It wasn't successful. And it was actually making their
suffering worse because the more we fight against ourselves, the more shame, the more regret,
the more powerlessness we can feel. It's the sort of I'm only going to ever eat.
lettuce leaves uh for for the rest of my life and that lasts for about three hours yeah and then
the part that wants to eat all the oreos takes over again and then we feel more and more shame and
more and more powerlessness and when we realize all these parts of us actually are much more
effectively healed and transformed when we actually get in relationship with them,
as C. Sykes would say, when we get in relationship rather than in control.
That, which is really consistent, I think, with biblical themes in particular of being in
relationship and that the relationship heals, that is transformational. And so moving toward these
parts with curiosity and compassion to understand what their story is. How did they first start
trying to help us in this way? That's not very helpful. How do they feel about having to do this
job inside of us? Is there anything they'd rather be doing? And it turns out that these parts of us
have their own unique stories, their own unique history of why they're doing the thing they're
doing. And when we get curious and even compassionate about that. they soften,
they take us over less and we gain access to that divine sort of our highest self inside of us,
the God image inside of us or our highest self. And we can then lead and engage in our lives from
that place rather than different parts of ourselves taking us over and driving the bus. I love it.
You know, it's funny that the longer I've done this work, you do see such the parallels in
parenting real life kids, right? And I love the example of addictions. And I'm thinking about, you
know, when we lock in a power play with a child, it never works. It just escalates.
It's exactly the same principle, right? And it's the same with the part of ourself.
It just escalates the tension, escalates the stress versus when you hold steady,
when you hold space, it deescalates. The the part of you or the child or the other person that is
is upset or acting out. So I how do you we're going to get there for the listener.
We're going to get to how we bring this into our real lives, because I think that's a really
interesting part of this this book. But before we get there, how do you help someone,
Jenna? I'm imagining someone listening who's like, I get this in concept. But in the moment,
how do I really show compassion to myself when I'm behaving in a way I hate?
What's the bridge? How do we bridge to compassion? There's a huge difference,
and I love that you're highlighting this, between how do I show compassion to myself versus how do
I show compassion to a part of me? that is feeling or doing this thing that I don't like.
And amazingly, it's a very powerful tool just to recognize.
And the three simple steps that I offer people in the Move Toward book are simply notice,
know, and need. And we can walk through that in a moment. But that first step of just noticing,
if we're triggered, if we're activated, if we're feeling a battle inside, noticing.
wow, I'm noticing there's a part of me that's activated that wants to eat all the cookies.
And I'm noticing there's another part of me that is pretty activated as well that has a lot of
negative judgment about eating all the cookies. And suddenly I can realize that neither of these
are who I am. These are parts of me at war. And that noticing allows them to kind of separate their
energy from us or their emotions, their thoughts, separate out so that we can reconnect to that
core, our highest self of who we truly are. And the curiosity sort of spontaneously emerges when we
do that. But it's not easy. It's simple, but not easy. So in my book. because I know people get
stuck on this a lot, I've included a little quick reference guide for the most common ways that
this gets stuck for people. And so if you're trying to notice a part of you compassionately...
really stuck, you can just reference that. And it tells you exactly what to do with illustrations
and step-by-step guidance. And so maybe we have a dissociative part of us that has taken over.
We're kind of checked out and we're trying to notice it, but there's nothing to notice. Well,
that's one of the common. common challenges. And I talk you through how to notice that.
And the way that we do that is to notice the not noticing, to notice the nothingness.
And so just some simple things like that, that help us with these hard moments of noticing with
curiosity. And it's also important to say that when we notice a part of us with curiosity,
we can go back to the example of working with addiction. We're not saying that what that part of us
is feeling or doing is okay. Yeah. Most of the time it's not.
What we're saying is the most effective way to help it transform is to get in relationship.
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I love that you made that distinction. We're not saying... And I think in our culture and I think
sometimes in the TikTokification of therapy, you know, it can feel like I'm saying just notice and
validate everything. It's not notice and validate. It's just, but you're so right. I love that you
said that. It's almost noticing, oh, I'm checked out right now. And it just opens the door to
awareness and in a powerful way, just being able to notice something.
I love that you start there. What's the second one, Jenna? The second step, once we've been able to
recognize this isn't all of me, this is just a part of me, and we feel a little bit of curiosity or
compassion toward it, then the second step is no, K-N-O-W. And from our higher self,
we just... kind of get curious with this part of ourself and just kind of internally check in,
what do you want me to know? Part of me that wants me to eat all the cookies, what do you want me
to know about you? And it's not weird. We're not hearing voices or, you know,
talking to ourselves, but we're just simply offering a question as we would if we were getting to
know anyone. Hey, Allison, what would you like me to know about you? I'm not going to ask you that
question and then say, you know, I think what you want me to know is that you're an amazing
podcaster, an incredible bestselling author, phenomenal therapist.
I would not do that. You'd be like, excuse me, you, you, you happen to be right, but you asked me a
question. Let me answer. And that's really what we're doing. We're getting to know this part of
ourselves. So we just kind of ask like. cookie eating part of me, what do you want me to know? And
just sort of wait. And what we'll notice is some images or thoughts or just a general awareness
will usually begin to emerge. So we might suddenly get an awareness. Oh,
wow, I was needing some soothing. There was a lot of stress in my life just now.
And this cookie eating part of me is taking over trying to provide a little bit of soothing,
a little bit of comfort for me. And we can just kind of start to get a little bit of information
about these parts of ourselves that really expands our compassion for them because we begin to hear
and know how they're trying to help. So that's step two is really,
really witnessing these parts, really getting in a conversation with them in a sense,
hearing what they want us to know about themselves. I love that because when you use the
illustration of a map, like even with me,
And just to pause on that power of that question, what do you want me to know about you?
When you just said that kind of as I was like, oh, what do I want her to know about me?
Tap something really deep inside and you're giving yourself that gift.
What do you want me to know? And not imposing it. And I just love how you linger there.
and again it leads to this deeper self-knowledge because we have all these ideas about ourselves
right we have all these ideas about why we're eating the cookies and usually they're negative
because i'm not disciplined because i'm you know i can tell you know i get through all of mine you
know like all of my inner critical but it's like when you really just like you would with a friend
what what do you what do you want me to know because it's always a younger part you know And I love
that. It's just like how you would ask a friend that. Give yourself that same kindness. Exactly.
We want to befriend these different parts of ourselves rather than fight them. That's really key is
transformation doesn't happen through battle and battling ourselves.
It happens through connection, care, and relationship. And no matter how negative the behavior that
the part of us is engaged in, when we begin to understand how it's trying to help us,
not saying what it's doing is good. A lot of times it's not, but it is usually trying to help in
some way or carrying some longstanding pain. And when we get to know the story of this part of
ourselves, all of a sudden we see how exhausted these parts of us are, how long they've been stuck
in these roles. The cookie eating part of me has been stuck in that role since I was being pretty
significantly bullied in high school. And every night, every day after school on the drive home,
I would drive past a little treat store. And if I stopped after making it through the entire day of
really intense social situations on the way home, I could stop and get a little something sweet.
And that part of me. learned in those moments gosh that worked for a hot minute when there was
nothing else that felt sweet in my life and no one else showing up in a sweet way for me and this
part of me took on that job and it turns out it's exhausted it doesn't actually like doing this
because it only works for 10 seconds and then it feels worse that is so powerful That is just such
a powerful connection to the past, right? They're there for a reason. So this leads us to the third
N, which is need. Correct. So what does this part of you now need?
Yes, this is a really, really powerful question because when parts of us take over and act out in
certain ways, so the cookie eating part of me takes over and makes me eat all the cookies. Well,
the cookies are not the need of this part. What this part needs is comfort.
And so once I hear this part's story, and so I've noticed it, I've asked this cookie eating part,
what do you want me to know? And then I ask this part, what do you need from me?
That is my highest self, not my spouse or my parents or my next door neighbor or the boss,
but what do you cookie eater? need from me to feel a little less activated,
a little more comforted. And again, we ask and we wait and we make it a sense.
We make it a sense of exactly what the part needs. And the need is usually something very
important. For example, the cookie eating part of me, when I asked that question,
what it needed was for me to deal with the overworking part of me. that was creating so much stress
in my life and as all of this overworking was creating lots of stress the cookie eating part would
get activated and jump in to try to create some relief and so it really helped me to gain insight
that the cookie eating would slow down if I could also do notice no need with the part of me that
was overworking these these parts of us are actually interacting in a system C.
Sykes, a wonderful IFS trainer, she says it's a system, not a symptom.
And I think that's really important. We often treat things like they're symptoms and we fight
against them. And that makes our suffering worse. When we recognize this feeling or behavior is a
part of a system. And we can move toward all parts of the system with curiosity and compassion.
It helps everything to calm and settle back and ultimately lays the foundation for their
transformation. Wow, I love that. And those needs, again, just to underscore and highlight,
I think often we impose what we think the part needs. And again,
that's like, and we've all had this happen to us when a friend's like, what you need is, and you're
like, well, I mean, even if it's true, that doesn't feel that great. You know, like what you need
is to like, just speak up for yourself. And it's like, well, yeah, I probably do. But like, and
it's kind of what we do to ourselves. And there's this, it's such a difference. I love how you're
saying that, like to wait for a minute and notice what comes up because it's often surprising to
your point. Right. It's like, well, actually, I, you know, I need a little more space from all this
overworking or whatever. And I'm always surprised by what the need is.
And I love that. That's that's a really lovely, just simple way to kind of just listen just as you
would, again, to a friend. Exactly. And it turns out that just like with a friend,
when we listen to them and find out what they want us to know and find out.
if there's anything they need from us, they calm down and they feel cared for and they feel seen
and less likely to become really activated. And the same is true in our inner relationships with
these parts of ourselves. It's very counterintuitive, but very powerful.
And it is the reason I tried to make this very simple, very clear,
very easy to remember is because Like you, I'm an IFS trained certified therapist.
I do this for a living. I know the IFS model cold, the internal family systems approach.
But when I'm out in the grocery store and all of a sudden I'm triggered, I can't pick up the phone
and call my therapist and do the entire model, even though this is what I do for a living. I need
something quick, something easy to remember, something accessible so that in that moment when we're
triggered. And an enraged part of us has taken us over or a dissociative part or a part that wants
to eat all the cookies or drink all the wine. I can immediately go, oh, notice no need.
I can do that. And I can help that part calm down, get a little clarity,
understanding of why it got triggered, how it's trying to help and what it actually needs so that I
can have more leadership of these inner battles that rage.
This is so good. Okay. So I love the image of being in the grocery store lane and how we're doing
this in real time. So in the book, you also spend some time talking about how this inner work
begins to change how we show up in our relationships, in our life, in our world, at our church, in
our marriages, in our culture, right? The whole world around us. And I think that's powerful
because the work doesn't just end inside of us. What are some examples of how you've seen this
inner work change how you showed up in a relationship?
And hypothetically speaking, I might know a friend who used this a lot in their marriage that was
incredibly transformational. This is strictly hypothetical. I can't relate to this whatsoever. But
a friend of mine said that when they would get into conflict.
I'll just out myself. It's me. Thank you. Hello. When I get, I've been married 30 years.
So, you know, when you've been in a relationship with someone for a long time, your parts know
their parts. Like when my husband shows up with an angry part, I get a appeasing part.
And our parts have relationships with each other. And that didn't used to go so well. When we are
reacting out of different parts of ourselves that take us over and try to run the show,
it doesn't. end well. And we wind up further away from our goals and not closer to them.
So what we do is first, we always do move toward, we always notice what is coming up in me.
Oh, I'm noticing a part that wants to appease, a part that's pretty mad, a part that feels
vulnerable, and a part that just wants to pretend there's nothing wrong so we can get past this.
Okay. So we notice, know, and need with all of our own parts. Then if we're in a largely a
goodwilled, you know, generally positive relationship where the other person,
you know, has connection to us and can offer some degree of listening,
we can say, whew, can I just, I just need to take a minute. I'm noticing that there's a part of me
when I sense this energy in the room between us that wants to take me over,
that wants to pretend like everything's fine. There's another part of me that just wants to do
whatever you want me to do so that this conflict will go away. There's another part of me that's
pretty mad that doesn't like that it's I'm always in the power down position and you're in the
power up position when you get mad. And there's a part of me that feels really actually vulnerable
that your anger could hurt me. And that feels really scary to this vulnerable part of me.
So that's what I'm noticing in me. What's coming up in you? And that's a very different approach
than all these parts taking us over and we're reacting out of them.
And it's called speaking for our parts. rather than from them. And it's pretty transformational
when we are in a largely goodwilled, generally safe and healthy relationship situation.
That, of course, is not every situation. And I speak to other ones in the book, but this can be a
game changer in our marriages and our parenting in so many different things.
And you can just feel the difference when you're speaking from that place versus yelling at the
person or escalating. Jenna, I'm thinking of the listener.
What do you suggest for folks who are listening, who are maybe doing this work or have some
understanding of that, but they are in that sort of toxic situation, whether it's a marriage,
whether it's a friend, whether it's a community, where it wouldn't be safe? to be that transparent.
How do you coach people like that how do you walk people like that in the book this is really
important because many relationships don't have that essential goodwill safe container and it
actually would not be wise when we're in a situation where there's toxic energy or boundary
violating or any type of danger in any way to sort of be that transparent and represent all these
different parts of ourselves it does open up a certain degree of um of intimacy that isn't wise to
offer to everyone. So an example that I see frequently clinically is working with betrayal trauma,
where a client may come in and their partner, their spouse has been compulsively using pornography
or acting out sexually in some way. They are suffering from Betrayal trauma.
Maybe they've just had a discovery or, you know, they're kind of trying to figure out what do I do?
And let's say they've confronted their partner and the partner is non-repentant.
They're not interested in working on it. They're gaslighting, blame shifting. Well,
if you were more sexual, I wouldn't have to look at pornography or, oh, don't worry about it.
All people do this or in whatever way, they're not really taking any ownership. They're deflecting,
blaming and refusing. to take responsibility or accountability.
And let's say that's been going on repetitively. Maybe there's been lies told, which is very common
in that work where the first discovery happens. I promise, I promise I'll never do it again.
Then the next discovery, then the next discovery. And so there's this chronicity of betrayal trauma
and the layers. So clients will often come in and say, what kind of boundaries do I need to have?
And this is key because in a situation where you no longer have the safety and genuine goodwill of
the container of the relationship because the person on the other side of the relationship, while
they may love you and you may love them, they're repeatedly lying,
blaming, and engaged in betraying behaviors. then what often happens with betrayed partners is they
react out of one part of themselves. So when they're in the therapy room, they'll say,
or when they're in the heat of a conflict with their partner, if you ever look at pornography
again, I'm leaving you.
Invariably, the person looks at pornography again. And another part of the betrayed partner shows
up. and actually is terrified of losing the relationship. And that part of the betrayed partner may
actually even want to go be more sexual with the betraying partner in an attempt to not lose that
attachment relationship. And so we've got, it's very common to have many different parts at war and
people are often very challenged. Like, why can't I hold boundaries? This is a situation where I
would say, Probably not the best thing to freely speak for your parts to your partner because
they're not able to safely be present for that. But you want to take a personal internal inventory.
You want to get internal consent from all parts of you and hear from the angry part that says,
if you ever, I'm gonna. And the part that says, but. I can't make enough money to support myself
and the children. What about the holidays? We got to listen to all the parts of ourselves that have
opinions around this. And then from that place of our highest self, as the leader of this group of
inner parts, we can make the wisest possible choice in the moment. That isn't perfect,
but it will be a boundary that we can state. with clarity and courage and follow through on.
And this would be an example where there isn't that genuine safety and goodwill.
And it might not be wise to speak for our parts, but it's very critical to listen to them and then
take our next step in the boundary from a place of that highest self leadership.
I love that. I think that's so wise. I want the listener to really hear that because often I will
hear from people, I'm sure you do too, sort of a self-criticism or an anger that they can't take
the action they feel like, a part of them feels like they should take. And what you're saying is so
important. It's that inner consent, inner witnessing of all the different layers.
There's a reason oftentimes people don't leave a marriage, don't leave a church, don't leave a
relationship, don't leave a... Because there's a lot at stake.
There's sometimes a high cost. And so I love what you're saying.
It may not at that point yet be about telling the other person all those different feelings,
but it is really honoring all of it within because that process will inevitably allow you when it's
finally time to take action, to do it with your whole self. which means it will be more
sustainable, more resilient, more, I love that. That's a really powerful, powerful way to,
it may take, you know, I know Kim and I said in Boundaries for Your Soul, and it always has stuck
with me. It's a slower way to where you want to get faster, right?
It's slower, but you actually get to where you want to be. Exactly.
Yeah, exactly. And when we throw out threats, or attempts to control someone else's behavior from a
part of ourselves rather than a true boundary, which is about managing our own choices,
our own behavior, not someone else. Then we don't wind up disempowering ourselves because when we
throw out a threat that we're not going to follow through on. We disempower ourselves.
We actually train the other person to ignore our words even more. This is true in parenting.
This is true in betraying relationships. When we throw out a threat, if you don't do your homework,
you're grounded for the next year. And that's not what all parts of us are in consent with,
nor is it. necessarily a wise choice. We are disempowering ourselves because then when we don't
follow through, the person on the other end says, well, I don't have to listen to what my mom is
saying, my dad is saying, they're not going to follow through. They're just throwing out threats.
And we wind up being a much less effective parent, a much less effective self-advocate,
a much more dysregulated. individual in our interpersonal relationships.
So this skill turns out to be fairly transformational. Wow,
that's, that's such a helpful, hopeful view.
What if you are in a relationship with, again, we're back to this fairly healthy,
good, you know, enough safety, good enough safety? But the language of parts hasn't either
connected with that other person. So it's been super helpful to us. But that that.
It's almost like we're speaking a different language. How do you encourage people in those
situations where the language maybe is a little bit of a barrier? I love this question because this
comes up a lot. I think it's very important. And it's part of the reason that I specifically wrote
this book to be very accessible. I wrote the book very casually. So it's like I'm sitting down with
the reader having a cup of coffee talking about these things. And there's... examples that will
walk you through how to do this. I've got scripts, I've got journaling or group discussion
questions after every chapter so that there is a really, there's a little bit of this is what it
looks like and then here's how you do it, let's practice. And I think that's so important because
this issue of the language of parts comes up often when people don't like that language.
Sometimes some people really resonate with it. Some people really don't prefer it. And some people
think it's pathologizing. Like, are you saying I have what used to be called multiple personality
disorder? No, not at all. This is normal. We all have lots of different parts of ourselves.
It's just normal. So what I say to encourage someone in that situation is it doesn't matter what
language we use to describe this inner experience. We can. Call it anything we want.
So I say, let's use the language that feels most comfortable. So we might say something like, let's
say we love inner parts work, but our partner is really triggered by the word parts. Then we can
say, okay, can I take a moment? I'm noticing there's an energy in me that feels really enraged
that's trying to help protect me from this conflict. I'm noticing there's another energy in me that
wants to sort of caretake. And there's another energy in me that feels really vulnerable right now.
We don't have to use the word parts. It doesn't really matter what we call it. We're reflecting our
inner experience in a way that can be heard and received. That's great. That's great, Jenna.
I love that. I was having a conversation with, I don't know if you're familiar with John Acuff. He
does a lot of coaching. He has a book called Soundtracks. And I had a conversation with him a few
weeks ago. And he was saying, we were kind of talking about that. And he was saying a lot of the
men he works with really, would never respond to this idea of an inner voice.
But when you talk about a soundtrack that plays, they're right there with them. And I was like,
that's interesting. It's okay. We don't have to be literal about the language in our real life.
Just find something that works, that's a shared language for both of you to name these inner states
that we all have. I think that's really helpful. That's a really helpful naming.
Yeah, I really love that because that was sort of the heartbeat behind my very first book years
ago, Altogether You, that integrated IFS with Christian spirituality.
And there was a lot of challenge for people of faith to connect with parts because there was a lot
of translation that needed to be done. For example, that our highest self or, you know,
that essence that IFS would call self with a capital S. Most people of faith have a very visceral
response to that that's quite negative. That word self often connotes sinfulness.
So it's like the opposite of what IFS is calling it. And just helping people to make a translation,
well, actually, that's just the image of God inside of you. Don't use the word self, use image of
God. Like if we're talking about the same thing, we could call it concentrated awesomeness. It
doesn't matter. Whatever works for you to understand the essence of what we're describing,
then let's use that. I love that. Just as we're winding down here,
for someone listening who's newer to this work, but wants to take a step forward,
what would you say is, just even today, what's the first small step someone could take to begin to
do this work today.
I love that. So that's the whole last chapter is like, what are my next steps for how to apply this
in my life? So I think this is so important because sometimes it can be conceptually a great idea.
And then if we don't know kind of how to implement it, it can just be an interesting idea. And I
think that the first step, which seems simple and it is, but it's not at all easy, is beginning to
practice the art of noticing, which is step one.
noticing when a part of ourselves has gotten activated and taking us over. And that can be
challenging because we often are taught to think of ourselves as just one thing. So if an angry
part of us gets triggered and takes us over, what we tend to think is I am so angry. or if an
anxious part of us has gotten activated and we're feeling its anxiety, we'll think,
I am so anxious. And so this art of just step one, of just noticing,
ah, an anxious part of me is here. ah, I'm noticing an angry part of me is here.
Even just that can be pretty transformational because all of a sudden, just with that awareness,
just with that gentle noticing, we get a little bit of separation between the energy of that part
of us, whether it's anger, anxiety, whatever it might be, and ourselves. And we begin to realize
how multifaceted. how beautifully multifaceted we are inside and that is a powerful first step so i
would say even just beginning to practice notice notice notice and also noticing what is it like
when we are not taken over by parts noticing that calm that clear-mindedness,
those moments of clarity, of courage, of compassion, when parts haven't taken us over.
Because that's a different place, that connection to the image of God or the highest self inside of
us. And noticing that can be really valuable as well. Like, oh, that's actually in me.
Because sometimes we think, oh, I've done so many bad things or so many awful things have happened
to me. I don't actually have that inside of me. That's a common thought. There's no image of God
inside of me. There's no highest self. I've done too many horrible things or I've endured so much
trauma in my life. There's nothing good inside of me. And so noticing when we're not overtaken by
parts and that actually there is. this beautiful essence inside of each and every one of us,
that's very powerful as well. I love that. I love that. Jenna, you're just such a wonderful light
of... such clarity and the way you distill this, what can feel overwhelming into such simple,
usable skills. It's just so wonderful. I'm so grateful for all of your work. You've written a
number of wonderful books. We'll link to all of your past appearances on the podcast because I know
those have been among my listener favorites. But tell us where they can find this current book and
how to get in, what all that you've got going on now. Oh,
thank you. Well, this new book is just released at the time of our recording, and it's available on
Amazon, Kindle, audiobook. I had a fun time recording it in the studio. If you'd like me to read it
to you and you're an audiobook person, enjoy that wherever books are sold.
And I have lots and lots of free resources that I offer to people because I know this can be a very
different approach and people need some help and guidance. So if you come to my website,
which is JennaRiemersma.com, but if you're like... 99% of the people and you can't spell
Remersma. Not a problem. Some days I can't spell my last name, but if you also come to movetoward
.com, it'll get you to the same place. And I've got free downloadable journaling worksheets.
I've got free videos where I actually guide you through this process for a variety of things.
So I've got move toward for anxiety, move toward for addiction, move toward for betrayal trauma,
move toward to just check in with your parts, move toward for triggers, all kinds of things. So
lots of free resources there as well as on the Insight Timer app.
So please feel free to take advantage of this. So they go to Jenna Remersma on Insight Timer.
Is that how they find you? Correct. And I've got a whole ton of free audio guides there that are
moved toward guides. And I even have one now that's a video. InSight Timer has just released videos
that teach us speaking for our parts rather than from them. So lots of ways that you can connect
with this if it interests you and you want to try it out. Please take advantage of all of those
free resources and try it out and see what you think. because it's really been life-changing for
me. And I'm so grateful to get to share this important and I think just really simple tool with
people. Well, Jenna, I cannot recommend your work, what you offer enough.
You are a trusted voice in this space and we are so grateful for your time and for what you're
putting into the world. Thank you for all the resources and just the gift of your wisdom. We're
really grateful. Thank you so much for having me back on the podcast. I always love being with you.
And I'm so grateful to have this conversation with your listeners. Thanks.
Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you
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