Staying Close When Connection Feels Hard: The Relationship Skills No One Has Taught You (with Relationship Expert Dr. James Cordova)
Episode Notes
Episode Show Notes
What if the health of your relationship is shaping more of your life than you realize?
We spend so much time focusing on our individual growth—our healing, our self-awareness, our inner work. But at some point, that work has to find its way into our closest relationships.
And that’s where things often get complicated.
In this episode, Dr. Alison is joined by Dr. James Cordova to explore what it actually looks like to build and sustain healthy, connected relationships over time—and why it’s so much harder than we expect.
Because the truth is, relationships aren’t neutral.
They’re either strengthening and supporting your overall well-being…
or quietly eroding it.
If you’ve ever felt close to someone you love… and also strangely disconnected, this conversation will help you understand why.
You’ll explore:
- Why relationships are more foundational to your health than you might think
- What actually happens as intimacy shifts over time—and why it’s not a sign something is wrong
- The “porcupine dilemma” and why closeness and hurt often go hand in hand
- How small, everyday moments either build or erode connection
- What it means to respond to bids for connection—and why they matter more than you realize
- How mindfulness and presence shape the quality of your relationships
- What to do when you feel stuck, disconnected, or like you’re the only one trying
This conversation offers a compassionate and practical reframe:
Healthy relationships aren’t about avoiding conflict or getting it right all the time.
They’re about learning how to stay present, stay curious, and stay connected—even when it’s hard.
More Resources:
Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram
Read Dr. James Cordova’s book: The Mindful Path to Intimacy: Cultivating a Deeper Connectin With Your Partner
Check out Dr. James Cordova’s book: The Mindful Path to Intimacy: Cultivating a Deeper Connection With Your Partner
Get a relationship check-up at https://arammu.com/
Want to go deeper? Join 80,000+ soul menders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices here.
Want to hear more like this? Start here:
Episode 115: 4 Ways to Transform Your Relationship—Expert Tips to Heal Pain Points and Deepen Intimacy
Episode 148: Dan Allendar on Healing, Intimacy, and Hard Fights
Episode 137: The Mindful Marriage with Ron and Nan Deal
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
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TRANSCRIPT
The quality of your relationship is either helping, it's either the rising tide that raises all
health boats, or it's hurting. It is never neutral. At the heart of mindfulness.
is this idea that attention is the most basic form of love. And whatever we're paying attention to
is the thing that we are nurturing. You're busy doing your thing and I walk in and I'm like, hey, I
was thinking about this thing. That's a bid. Hey, let's be here together in this moment. And when
you can show up in that moment with me, then that waters those seeds of connection.
The challenge is that if most of the time when I show up in bid, you either ignore me or you get
mad at me because I'm interrupting you, then I stop doing it.
Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of The Best of You. I am so glad
you're here today because this is a conversation I am so excited to share with you. I hope you'll
send it to your spouse, text it to someone you love, listen to it together on a drive. Because what
we're talking about today isn't just for you, it's for both of you. We spend so much energy and
time working on ourselves, our own healing, our growth, our inner life. And this is all good and
important and necessary. But at some point, all of this inner work has to find its way into our
closest relationships. And this is exactly where today's conversation is going. My guest is Dr.
James Cordova. He's a clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at Clark University,
where he directs the Center for Couples and Family Research. For decades, James has dedicated his
work to one of the most important and most neglected areas of human health, the health of our
intimate relationships. And what he's discovered and what I think will genuinely shift something in
you, I know it has for me, is that the quality of our relationships is never...
neutral. It's either the rising tide, as James says, that lifts every other area of our lives,
or it is quietly pulling asunder. There is rarely an in-between. I hear from so many of you about
how to apply this work into your most intimate relationships. And James is the author of a
fantastic book. It's called The Mindful Path to Intimacy. How to stay connected through the
challenges of life. It's a really practical book that brings together mindfulness and relationship
science in a way that is accessible to all of us, to anyone who is trying to love someone well over
the long haul. And here's what I love about the way James thinks. He doesn't believe that
struggling in your relationship means something is wrong with you or your partner. He believes,
and I think he'll convince you of this today, that intimate relationships are inherently,
unavoidably challenging. That we are all... every single one of us, what he calls porcupines.
I related to this so much when he shared this. We are soft and warm and desperately wanting
connection, but we are also covered in quills that we mostly don't mean to use,
but often do. And so the question isn't whether we'll hurt each other. We will.
The question is whether we have the skills, the awareness, and the support to stay close to each
other anyway. We talked today about what healthy relationships actually look like,
why mindfulness is one of the most powerful tools we have for intimacy. We talk about the small
everyday moments that can either build or erode our connection over time and what to do when we're
stuck, when the DIY approach just isn't enough and we need a little outside support. This is one of
those conversations that I found myself nodding along to from start to finish. It just struck as so
profoundly wise about the reality. of the both and of relational intimacy. We need it.
It's how God designed us. It's beautiful. And it's also incredibly challenging.
So I hope you'll listen in and grab your person if that would be helpful to you, or at least plan
to pass this one along. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. James Cordova.
James, I'm so thrilled to... this conversation, so many of the questions I get from listeners are
around relationships. And as we were talking before we started recording, a lot of my audience has
a built-in understanding of the value of marriage, of being partnered,
of loyalty, and yet intimacy. And connectedness is in many ways a much different thing.
From your perspective, what is a healthy relationship?
Why are relationships so important and what are they forming in us over time?
Ah, such a good question. You know, part of what we are really focused on in the work that I do is
the significant. impact that our relationships have,
not just on our day-to-day happiness and general sort of psychological well-being,
but the important impact, the measurable impact that the quality of our relationships have on our
physical health, on all the dimensions of our mental health, on the outcomes for our children.
You know, we tend to Even when we really value it, we tend to think about relationships in terms of
it's almost like they're the icing on the cake. Right. Like if you've got a satisfying,
happy making, intimate relationship, like that's the cherry on top. Yeah. But it's not necessarily
like we don't tend to think about it as a significant part of our overall health system.
We don't treat it like we treat with the same. with the same seriousness in some ways that we treat
our physical health, even our dental health, right? And so one of the things that I really am
intent on emphasizing in my work is the quality of your relationship is either helping,
it's either the rising tide that raises all health boats, or it's hurting. It is never neutral.
Oh, that is so good. That dental analogy, immediately, I just thought,
right. And we regularly check in on our dental health and maintain it and take for granted when our
teeth are working well. But man, when they're not, it's painful. Right, right. Exactly.
In the state of what I'm now calling relationship health care, the state of relationship health
care at the moment is either do it yourself. DIY or emergency medicine,
you know, where like it's couples therapy after a relationship,
a marriage has been suffering for years or, you know, good luck out there,
you know, do your best on your own. And, and what we are, what we're discovering is that,
and what we all sort of know from our own experience, right. Is that intimate relationship that.
close emotional mental physical proximity is by its nature extraordinarily challenging and and so
to go to the dental analogy again like if taking care of our dental health was entirely up to us
and the only access we had to dentists was after our teeth had been hurt for a while you know we
wouldn't have so many teeth yes uh and and leaving our relationship health entirely in that diy
column i think is a significant part of why the the you know for decades now regardless of what
we've done and tried the divorce rate hovers around 50%.
Yep. Because we don't have a way of thinking about relationship healthcare as something that we can
seek skilled professional help on.
in that sort of regular proactive way that we do with our physical health and our dental health and
honestly nowadays even with our mental health yes that is such a revel i love that relational
health care and i'm hearing a couple things in what you're saying one we need these intimate
relationships they're not fringe they're not side notes they're foundational i think i hear you
saying just as our physical health is but we have no skills no training and no mechanism to
maintain them because they are complicated I heard you say they are inherently challenging. It's
really interesting. The skills,
the attitudes, the ways of being in the world that are really beneficial to long-term relationship
health, we don't come by them naturally. Yeah. Right?
Interesting. And we don't learn them in school, for sure. Right.
And so we're all just sort of entering into this really complex human experience.
You know, with whatever we learned on the street corner, you know, like just just doing our best.
Right. So it's a little bit like having never, you know, lifted the hood of a car before.
Yeah. We're just like, I can probably figure this out.
That is, and then I want to take us to the beginning. And also, so often we're doing this when
we're still pretty young and hardly formed ourselves, right? So I'm thinking of folks I know and
all the weddings I was in at 25, 26, 27. I didn't get married till later.
And in some ways, I've thought about that as a huge advantage in the sense of just knowing myself a
little better and my husband knowing himself a little better. But that's not always the case. But
especially if we add him. You're young. You fall in love. You don't even know yourself very well
yet. And then you've entered into this bond with this other person. So talk to us a little bit
about that lifespan. You know, if we're thinking about intimacy, when we first connect, it can feel
effortless. It can feel like, oh, I can handle this car. You know, this is easy.
It's easy to drive. It's fun. There's no issues. It's brand new. You know, we don't have any miles
on it. So it's driving great, you know. Three thousand miles. They're amazing.
So so what's happening in that phase? Why is it important and what inevitably shifts?
I think, you know, the way that I think about long term intimate relationships is that that sense
of deep connection, that sense of warmth and and and love and affection and acceptance and and.
just comfort, you know, is rooted in our shared vulnerability and how we care for each other,
you know, how we care for each other's vulnerability. We are, by our nature, vulnerable.
And in an intimate relationship, you know, you're the person that I'm most vulnerable to.
And so when we first form our relationships, you know, we are putting our best foot forward.
Yeah. Right. We are on our best behavior. Right. And oftentimes in those first few moments
together, those first few meetings, what we're experiencing is somebody who seems to like us.
Yeah. Somebody who's into us just for who we are. Yeah. Right.
That first blush in the relationship feels like, oh, I think I finally maybe found somebody who's
going to like me just the way that I am. And there's an incredible, we call it intimate safety.
There's an incredible blossoming of this sense of opening, right? That,
oh, I can be myself. Yes. This person thinks I'm funny. They think I'm good looking.
They want to hang out with me. Yeah. Right. And that is such a heady and intoxicating moment for
both people to just fall into that experience of feeling treasured just for who they are.
And then because vulnerability never becomes invulnerability,
it starts to get complicated relatively quickly. Interesting. The metaphor that I've been loving
recently in this spot is called the porcupine's dilemma. And the story of the porcupine's dilemma
is like, we're all porcupines. You're a porcupine. I'm a porcupine. Our partners are porcupines.
Everybody out there that is a human being is a porcupine. Which is this really interesting animal,
right? We're mammals. We got this nice soft sort of fuzzy underbelly. You know,
we like to be close. You know, we need to be physically close to each other. And we're covered in
quilts. Yes! Oh, that's so good! Right?
So when you get close enough to feel the warmth.
You're also inside of quills distance by necessity. And so we are going to both experience all the
warm fuzzies of being close. And we're both going to quill each other, mostly by accident,
on a relatively regular basis. That is the dilemma, right?
Because by our nature, when we're hurt, right? Like if I catch a quill...
if and mostly like it's almost always true, like you didn't mean it. Right. But whatever,
you were in a grumpy mood or I was in a grumpy mood or or, you know,
I'm tired, I'm hangry. Right. Whatever it is, you know, like like you accidentally catch a quill.
Our natural reaction comes out of our ancient past. Right. Like like we we were,
you know, when we're hurt, we respond with either fight or flight. Yeah. And and that was,
you know, in our in our in our history as a species. Right.
That was in the service of not getting eaten by bears. Yes. Yes.
Very functional. So, yeah, very functional out in the world of lions and tigers and bears and
enemies and, you know, disaster. But it, you know. It's so not functional.
It's like anti-functional in an intimate relationship, right? If you quill me and I respond with
fight and quill you back, now we're both hurt, right? And now both of us feel a little less safe
being our vulnerable, authentic selves with each other. If you quill me and I flight,
right? Like I pull back into stone cold silence. Right. Or I like, you know, turn my back on you or
just get, you know, just get quiet, you know, and withdraw. Then then, you know,
in a way it's its own quill. Right. So now, you know, now I'm turning away and and and missing that
connection and that warmth. And and again, neither one of us are are feeling.
as safe or as connected with that vulnerability. And my worry is that like,
I'm going to go back to the analogy, like if we aren't going to the dentist on a relatively regular
basis to get the plaque that grows up that we can't get at with a DIY approach removed,
then you're going to have trouble. You're just going to lose teeth.
And most people, most of us, I would say it's quite common,
extraordinarily common, that we respond to the dilemma of being porcupines by pulling just outside
of Quill's distance. So that we're close, but we're not too close.
Right. Like I'm trying to live with you. I'm trying to raise children with you. I'm trying to pay
bills with you. I'm trying to have a life with you. But I'm trying to also not get hurt by you and
not hurt you. And I've just just by living sort of discovered that I have to maintain a certain
amount of distance from you in order to do that. And so we're in these long term family loving
relationships, but we're lonely. Because we haven't been, we haven't acquired the skills to stay
inside of Quill's distance, to even move inside of Quill's distance on a regular basis,
right? We're trying to keep ourselves and each other safe by staying in this place that feels safe
-ish, but kind of cold.
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Wow, that is such a powerful way to understand sort of that ongoing challenge of living with
another porcupine. I think that is such a valuable metaphor. It's just we I am one and you are one.
And this is just our reality. How do we navigate it? So this brings me to your work in particular
focuses on mindfulness.
which is something we often think of as an individual practice. We had on the podcast for my
listeners, you'll remember Jud Brewer, who is an expert on mindfulness out of Brown University, our
neighbor down the road, who kind of talked about it from a, you know, more of that traditional
sense of being in the moment, paying attention. How do you see it as one of the essential tools of
relational intimacy?
The the at the heart of mindfulness is this idea that attention is the most basic form of love.
Attention is the most basic form of love. And whatever we're paying attention to is the thing that
we are nurturing. Yes. And and for most of us, we are.
Let's say they're plants that we're watering, seeds that we're watering. And for most of us, most
of the time, the seeds that we're watering with our loving attention are seeds of like anxiety
about the future or regrets about the past, right?
Or just, you know, worries, fears, resentments that we're carrying,
right? And what we are missing. is the opportunity to really nurture and be nurtured by the
vividness of our life in the present moment, right? By the gift that is what is here right now.
Wow. That, you know, one of the ways that I've begun to think about this is I'm always struck by
this. quote from Meister Eckhart, who is this Christian mystic.
He says, if the only prayer you say in your entire life is thank you, that will be sufficient.
Like that will suffice, right? And the thank you for what is arising and being created in the
moment is what we are cultivating with the practice of really just...
very deliberately anchoring our attention, practicing bringing this loving attention to the present
moment. And that's obviously inclusive of these ought to be treasured moments between ourselves and
others. Interesting. And so... talk about these small,
everyday interactions. Is that kind of what you're getting at? So when I was listening, I was
thinking about if I'm kind of stressed out about something or worried in the future,
I'm not present. So I am stressed out, but I'm not really present to,
oh, I'm tired right now or I'm stressed right now. I if if say my spouse comes in and interrupts me
and I'm frantic and I'm in that kind of adrenalized like I got to just get things done because I
got too much going on and I'm worried I might kind of snap at him for not understanding hey don't
interrupt me right now which is a porcupine quill versus and so it seems as if mindfulness both is
is it's a two-part process it's I have to be present enough to go I'm anxious so then if he comes
into my space my my attentiveness both to my own self a lot of what we talk about my backgrounds in
parts work so if i'm attentive so for my listeners right this is where the parts work comes into
the intimacy right if i'm attentive and can be present to i'm anxious in this moment if my spouse
comes in i can receive that as i can then be present to him And maybe even invite him into that
with me. I'm anxious. Thank you for I'm kind of just thinking, like,
how does this it's like when I'm in when I'm all tied up inside, often that's when I quill,
basically, is what I'm trying to say. Exactly. Regardless of what my spouse does, it might be he's
trying to do something nice. It might just be that he needs something. Right. And mindfulness
enters into that as I'm both present to myself and present to something that he's trying to offer
in that moment.
Am I kind of making sense of that? Exactly. And this is the most powerful gift that we can give to
ourselves and each other is our presence. Yeah. And what you're highlighting is that we're often
not present. You know, we're often so caught up in what's going on inside our own experience,
inside our own mind. And again, that's often about things that aren't actually happening right now.
Things that aren't actually fully present, right? And the way that we nurture our connection is
with that presence and that attentiveness, that loving attentiveness to each other.
So you probably... heard about and even talked about on on your podcast about this idea of
responding to bids yes right yes i love the bids which is which is that's what it is you know like
when when you know in the moment you know like you're busy like you're saying you're busy doing
your thing and i walk in and i'm like hey i was thinking about this thing and that's a bid for like
hey let's be here together in this moment And when you can show up in that moment with me,
then that waters those seeds of connection. And that's that's essential for the long term health of
our relationship. The challenge is that, like, if most of the time when I show up in bid.
you either ignore me or you get mad at me because I'm interrupting you, then I stop doing it,
right? I start to go do something else with my time because it's a quill, right? Like, oh, that
sort of stung. And so I'm going to do a little bit of a flight thing by moving away. And that can
calcify, right? So that I just don't bid. And I'm not even maybe even consciously aware that I'm
not doing it anymore. You know, it's just that something has grown up in that space between us.
And now it's like plaque, right? That we're not really able to remove ourselves sometimes.
That's so good. And that bid could be tiny. It could be as simple as your spouse or your
significant person entering the room and asking something insignificant.
But I love how you say that. That is a bid for attentiveness and inviting you into that present
moment. So I'm sure you get this question all the time.
Sure.
I have to ask because I can hear in my listener, I sometimes get, this is the email I get. I'm
trying to work through my own kind of quilling, my own triggers.
But maybe my partner isn't either also doing that,
right? Maybe they're not as aware. They're not as able to connect.
Which is, you know, how do we what do we do when that feels like there's a mismatch in my growth in
trying to be more present and trying to notice those bids? But then my partner maybe just takes
that noticing and runs with it and doesn't also offer me the same in return. I'm not sure if I'm
asking that well. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's such a common.
It's such a common experience that we have, right? Like, I feel like I'm trying, you know,
I'm giving attention, I'm giving generosity, I'm giving love, I'm giving kindness.
And I feel like I'm trying, right? And my partner's not responding in the way that I wish they
would.
You know, the place that I sort of always want us to start is in recognizing that you know,
we're all kind of doing our best here, right? You know, that we can,
you know, the answer is a kind of like love them anyway, right?
And, you know, for me, one of the things that's often true that I attend to when I'm working with
couples is that partner that's a little bit quieter, that partner that's a little more turned away,
that partner that has in some ways, just fewer relationship skills,
fewer relationship behaviors, like that, that came to them relatively naturally,
right? Like a lot of us are actually, you know, like vulnerability is vulnerable for all of us,
but a lot of us are especially punished for doing the things that reveal ourselves as vulnerable
for doing the things that are, um, connecting and risky in a relationship and and it can seem on
the on the surface of it like a hardness or a coldness but it's actually a protective layer and if
we can uh like see through that protective layer to to touch what's on the other side to really
treat that person as though we know that they're vulnerable, we know that they are suffering,
we know that they need love and care, we make it safe for them to express their authentic selves
with us, then that will grow. So let me give you an example.
It is not uncommon for me when I'm working with a couple, you know, they'll come in and and,
you know, the wife will often be like, OK, so let me tell you what's going on. You know, these are
our problems X, Y and Z. And these are the ways in which, you know, like he's misbehaving and I
wish that he would be better. And then I turn to him and say, so tell me a little bit from your
perspective about, you know, what's bringing you to couples therapy. And he'll say, well, I guess
mostly just what she said. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like, like, I guess I'm just here to get yelled at by
the principal. Right. And, and when I can respond with empathy for what it's like to like,
I mean, I can imagine that it's challenging to feel like. I'm doing my best in this relationship.
She seems really unhappy. I'm not sure what I can do to make her happy.
I feel like I'm a good husband and I know she's asking something of me,
but I can't quite seem to make her happy. And I just feel like I love her and I want to feel
connected to her, but I feel stuck. And like, I just wish I was receiving more.
affection and affirmation and admiration and i just don't know how to get back there does that seem
like part of what you're experiencing and then you know this sort of like emergence of yes that's
exactly what it's like and i said well tell me a little bit more about that and then he goes on for
minutes and then to have the wife toward towards him and turn towards me and say that's the most
he's said in the last 17 years that we've been married right and it's like it's not magic it's
empathy it's caring it's compassion right you know it's not well i'm upset with you and so i'm just
going to try to get something soft out of you by quilling you right it's you get to be you like
tell me what it's like to be you let me be curious about you and not meet that with argument,
but meet that with, I get it. And when we feel like, oh,
it's safe for me to be angry, right? It's safe for me to feel resentment. It's safe for me to feel
like it's not fair. And that still gets met with like care.
Then we really open up.
Yeah, it's so good. We don't create softness through quilling. Right.
Even though it makes sense. Because I want something, so I'm trying to get it. Yeah, exactly.
And I think it goes both ways because I can imagine in that same moment, then the other spouse
could be heard in, I just feel like I'm carrying. We talk about the mental load with women.
I just feel like I'm carrying so much. And it's not even that I...
i just need someone to see that you know it's oftentimes then you can see that kind of come out
it's like i don't mean to come at you with it but and and i think this is where james i'm curious
your thoughts on this where we we we can't want our and i and i want to be clear i guess that we're
not talking here about extremes of pathology where there's no no narcissism where there's abuse you
know this is not what we're talking about we're talking in the realm of two people who are doing
their best is that fair to say yeah yeah absolutely so it within that it's often not that i so
often i'll speak for myself i want something from my spouse that in fact what i really want is just
that primal attachment i want to be seen i want to be heard i want to be and and i get that we're
different people and yeah when my better self comes on i'm like i'm so glad because we have
different skill sets right i sure i am so grateful i did not marry another therapist right that is
a good thing there are things he offers me that i do not so just in my own case and and so there
are things that i I think all of us, whatever our dynamic is, there are different skill sets and
different strengths. And when we get overwhelmed, it's like, I just want something I don't even
know what. And that's kind of why we're quilling. Yep. And I kind of hear you saying the whole
trick is to get underneath that and just see each other for how we each are in that moment.
Right, right. And to stay, to be able to breathe. into it to breathe through it to stay present
even when it's hard when it's uncomfortable when the when the thing that you're telling me i don't
really like the thing that you're sharing with me i wish you weren't sharing this with me right
yeah right but i'm gonna stay and that's one of the key for me that's one of the key gifts of a
contemplative practice that's one of the key gifts of of mindfulness contemplative prayer however
we practice Being fully present in the moment, regardless of what's going on with us,
because it helps to create this this resilience, this this this sort of like courage or,
you know, benefit that I know I can feel these feelings.
I can feel uncomfortable. I can feel upset. Like I can feel the quill and not respond with
reactivity, not respond with fighting, not responding with flight. But I can just feel it.
I can host it with grace. And that doesn't come to us naturally.
That capacity to be present with. discomfort without becoming destructively reactive takes practice
it and it takes that kind of i can just be here with it practice wow and and we don't give
ourselves a lot of opportunity to do that to just like you know sometimes in my own practice the
most the most like productive uh practices that I've had have been just when I'm sitting down with
like, this sucks and I'm just going to sit here and be with it. Wow.
And after a few minutes of just allowing it to feel the way that it feels, something softens,
something opens up and a greater, it's a greater kind of like kind maturity that I think takes
root. Wow. Yeah, this is where the parts framework is really helpful to me. It's like a part of me
is like, I don't need to hear this story again. But another part of me can come online and say,
but I love this person and I'm going to stay present. Right. And when you said take a breath,
right, that's that's the it's the both things can be true. And I can I can honor both.
I don't have to both can be true in this moment and I can be present in a different way.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that and that is that is the allowing.
I love that. It's the allowing for more than one thing is happening. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like like
something's going on between us that feels a little hard. Yeah. And and there's a part of me that
wants to fight back. There's a part of me that wants to defend myself. There's a part of me that
wants to shut down and run away. All of that gets to just be there. Yeah.
simultaneously, I know that the best thing I can do for myself and for my partner is to stay kindly
present and to just offer my attention and my sort of compassionate curiosity.
What I often, the mantra that I often teach to my couples is just tell me more.
So so this thing happened at work. Tell me more. There's this thing that you're doing that's
driving me crazy. Tell me more. Right. You know, like, oh, there's this thing about you that I love
you that I love about you. Tell me more. Right. Like, just tell me more about what it's like to be
you. And when we feel like somebody cares to know, that's the greatest gift.
Not fix, not not make better. Just be with. Yeah.
Yeah. One, I feel like we might need to have a part two because I want to honor your time because
I'm going to throw out a question here at the end that really is a toll episode. So what about when
I love this and I know for my own work that this is truly does lead to to change and growth.
It's not you're not saying and I want the listener to hear this. This isn't saying just just.
deny your own needs or just take care of this other person. It's much deeper than that.
It's deeply formational. And you're great with metaphors, but in my mind,
it sort of creates an environment where this other person may also feel that shift.
And we just know that quilling doesn't create change. So trying curiosity,
trying presence. And then that does lead me to
What if there still is that rupture? What if that other person, there does need to be a change.
There comes a point where I do need to say, hey, you're not listening to me. Or I'm still feeling
like this thing you're doing. And I know this is a different skill, is my guess. Sure.
But can you touch on those moments when we do need to have a confrontation or we do have a rupture
and we need to address it?
You know, again, there's these two there's these two domains. One is how much of this can I do
myself? How much how much is it? How much of this can I address in that DIY way?
Yeah. And and sometimes we can. Right. With the right attitude,
with enough, you know, grace and forbearance and and forgiveness and,
you know. relationship mindedness right we can we can call out to our partner and invite them you
know from the place of our own yearning right it's not like you're doing it's not like you're being
bad you're not a bad person I'm yearning for something and I'm inviting you to like care about that
and I know that you're yearning yearning for something for me and I want you to tell me what that
is so that I can care about that as well that that we can practice in our relationships and then
there's this other domain which is like nobody can be their own dentist Right. You know, sometimes
it's and I would say for all of us, there are going to be those moments when we just need a little
help from somebody who's spent their lives specializing in helping couples move past places of
stuckness in a relationship. Right. And with, you know, you know, my whole career has been trying
to find ways to lower the shame, the embarrassment, the expense.
the time commitment, all of the barriers to just like get, even if it's just little bits of
professional care on a relatively regular basis, right? Because we can't, we,
I mean, again, just look at the divorce rates. We clearly can't do it all on our own. That's just
the divorce rate. And then the percentage of couples that are unhappily married,
but still together is also like. We say like at any one point in time,
20% of all marriages are significantly distressed. So one in five, like that's an epidemic.
And, you know, even. So for example, the thing that I specialize in,
which are these regular relationship checkups, even just one session, one or two sessions is often
for couples. That's all we needed. We just needed somebody to help massage out this one stuck spot
for us. You know, not everybody needs sessions and sessions and sessions and sessions of couples
therapy. Some people do, but most of us just need somebody who's got an outside perspective and who
specializes in working with couples to spend an hour with us. That is profound.
I really appreciate your sharing this hard-earned wisdom with my community because I do think it
can feel so overwhelming. And I, again, just going back to the car, you know,
sometimes you need an oil change. Sometimes you need to take out the transmission, but both require
a little maintenance. And I just, I really appreciate,
I think it's, I just kind of, Clinician to clinician, I almost only work with individuals because I
think couples work is challenging because of everything you're saying. Most of us providers are
scared to death of couples therapy. Yes. And I really respect and I'm grateful for,
it's so important as to your point, this is a huge, we are not created and designed to be alone.
Right. We are, there's something inherently. beautiful about intimacy and togetherness and in all
of God's creatures. It's really fascinating. So tell my listeners where they can find more about
your work, your book, and what you provide. Absolutely. So the easiest place to get a hold of me
and the folks that I work with is at our website, which is aramu.com,
A-R-A-M-M-U.com. Aramu is... As far as we can tell from our Google searches,
ancient Sumerian for love. And Aramu is a spot that we are,
that's where it's a relationship healthcare clinic. And it's also a spot where we train providers
to both provide regular relationship checkups and do couples therapy.
So we train providers and we provide. relationship health care to couples. That's amazing.
Well, we will link to all of that in the show notes. So grateful for your time and your wisdom and
just sending, you know, so much, so many blessings to you and your important work. Really grateful.
Thank you so much, Allison. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you for joining me for this week's
episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to
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