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Episode Show Notes
What happens when your body starts telling a story your mind cannot ignore?
In this deep-dive episode of The Best of You, Dr. Alison sits down with author Justin Whitmel Earley to explore the connection between spiritual formation and the everyday rhythms of our bodies.
From the outside, Justin’s life looked stable and successful. But anxiety and panic began surfacing in ways he could no longer explain away. What followed was a deeper question many of us carry: what if our bodies are revealing something about how we are living?
Together, Alison and Justin explore the forgotten wisdom of embodied faith and how small daily practices shape the soul over time.
In this conversation, they explore:
- Why anxiety sometimes appears even when life “looks fine” on the surface
- The surprising ways your body may be revealing deeper patterns in your life
- What modern faith may have forgotten about the role of the body
- How simple daily rhythms can slowly reshape who we are becoming
This conversation is about learning to listen.
Because sometimes the path toward healing begins by paying attention to the wisdom already present in your body.
More Resources:
Connect with @justinwhitmelearley on Instagram
Order Justin’s latest book The Body Teaches the Soul.
Connect with @dralisoncook on Instagram
Join the 80,000+ soul menders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices here.
If you liked this episode, then you’ll love:
Episode 186: Stuck in Overthinking? A Simple Practice to Interrupt Stress, Overwhelm, and Habit Loops
Episode 184: Stop Running From Anxiety - How to Tell Normal Stress from Unhealthy Anxiety and Find Peace Over Panic
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
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© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.
TRANSCRIPT
Beautiful office, important job. I'm getting paid more than I've ever gotten paid in my life. I
have a wife and... two children and everything is going right in my life if you look from the
outside but in my mind i was a house on fire everything is closing in everything is ending i justa
wish i knew that there were physical practices i could engage in that would calm that emotional
state if a doctor can get you to uh exercise be in friendship often throughout the week you know
take walks outside and eat right and not work too much and sleep eight hours like that is going to
be far better than any pill that could ever give you
Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm Dr. Allison, and I'm
so glad you're here with us this week. If you're new here, I'm so glad you found us.
This is a space for anyone who's interested in a wiser way of being human, a place where we honor
the complexity of real human lives grounded in modern science and ancient wisdom. And this is our
Thursday Deep Dive episode, where we slow down and explore one topic more fully.
If you haven't already, I'd love for you to to join us each weekday. For the best of you every day,
this is a short eight-minute reflection rooted in scripture and shaped by psychology and spiritual
wisdom. And for those of you who are following along with the daily reflections, today's
conversation is meant to feel like a natural continuation of that path where we pause and take a
little more time to go deeper in conversation with other guests and experts and sometimes just me
to look at how that wisdom actually shapes our lived embodied lives.
Today's scripture is Genesis 2-7, and we'll touch on it in the episode today in a powerful way.
The scripture is, Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his
nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. It's a verse...
of us know well, but we don't always think about in the context of what we're carrying right now.
Because what if this wisdom is physical? What does it mean that God gave us a body,
breath, and bones, rest, and rhythm? And that question sits at the heart of today's conversation.
Today we're talking about the body, not as something to manage, fix, or overcome, but as something
that teaches us. Many of us were formed to believe that wisdom lives primarily in the mind,
in right beliefs, right thinking, right theology. But what if wisdom also lives in breath, in
sleep? and rest in the rhythms we repeat every day without thinking.
My guest today is Justin Whitmull Early, and his story brings the question to life in a powerful
way. Justin is a lawyer, an author, a husband, and the father of four boys. He's the author of The
Common Rule, Habits of the Household, and his brand new book, The Body Teaches the Soul.
He's someone who deeply valued the life of the mind, faith, theology, vocation,
calling. And from the outside, his life looked really good and together. But in his early 30s,
his body began to tell a different story. That moment became the beginning of a long journey,
one that led him to ask a question many of us carry. How can I believe a gospel of peace and
goodness and yet live with a body ruled by anxiety? Justin's new book,
The Body Teaches the Soul, grows directly out of that question. It's not a self-help manual.
It's not a productivity guide, though it's incredibly practical. It's an invitation into wisdom,
the kind of wisdom scripture has always pointed toward that we talk about in these daily
devotionals where body and soul. connect. In the book, Justin explores how simple embodied habits
shape us spiritually over time. And he challenges the two errors many of us fall into when it comes
to the body. And he invites us to reclaim the body as something sacred, as a place where God's
wisdom meets our daily lives. I'm so thrilled to bring you my conversation with Justin Whitmull
Early.
thrilled you're here i i would love to dive in to our conversation where you dive in in the book
because it's so powerful you open in the er i think yes you're unfortunately yes yeah you're 48
hours without sleep you're in a full and panic mode um kind of in my words i would you know you're
you're there's a dissonance between what's going on in your mind and what's going on in your body.
Can you put us back in that moment? Tell us what was happening and how that led to this book that
you've gifted us with now. It was a moment I will never forget. It changed the course of my life.
It led to me writing.
When I was in that moment, I was about 30 years old. I had been a missionary in China for a couple
years of my 20s, almost five actually. So I was a serious Christian,
so to speak. My faith was really important to me. Law school had been an interesting time.
I had felt called actually to leave the mission field and go live and work missionally within
lawyering. So I had come at law school as a serious Christian again.
What I didn't realize during law school was that it, like the rest of the world,
is a... machine. It did not just teach me new information about how to be a lawyer.
It shaped a way of life that I was unaware of until it changed me,
until after the fact. And what law school did was encourage me to stay up later,
wake up earlier, fit more work in everywhere, be constantly tethered to my screen. The typical
stuff of modern working America, but For, you know, top law school students,
and for better or for worse, I was one of them at a top law school working towards a top lawyering
job. These were all blessings. These were good things. But the formation is pretty extreme there.
And so I came out as a 29-year-old turning 30 lawyer with a great head on my shoulders,
like great worldview. But the architecture of my habits at that time, the way I lived my life,
the formation that had occurred, and I didn't know about it, was just like everybody else's. And at
the age of 30, I wake up one night in full-on panic attack. And I didn't even know,
Allison, what a panic attack was at the time. I had no idea what was happening to me. That's why
I'm in the emergency room thinking I must have eaten something, something must have gone wrong. And
I was really scared because in my mind, I had never put my quote unquote identity in work.
In my mind, this was not the most important thing in life. In my mind, I was a calm, normal,
sincere Christian. But in my body, I had become wild.
I mean, I was totally, I now see the words like disintegration and dysregulation and all these
things would apply. I just didn't know those words that I had no idea was happening. Yeah. I
relate. My listeners, I've told this story and I've been telling it more very similarly.
And if it makes you feel better, I was in a psychology doctoral program having that kind of living
so much in my mind, thinking I could analyze health, analyze spiritual formation,
analyze my way into wholeness. only to find myself having extreme panic attacks.
So when I read that, a part of me was like, oh, I get it. There's that wonderful left brain kind of
mind-oriented part of us that, especially as Christians,
isn't bad. And it can be the part of us that's very theologically minded and doctrinally minded and
doing the right thing minded. But man, does it have to be brought. into relationship with the rest
of us. And so that's right. I just appreciate that story so much that you shared that as the
anchoring. And for me, I think it was particularly acute because as a former missionary,
sincere Christian and lawyer, and by the way, English literature major and aspiring writer,
I've always loved writing. I thought that's how life work. Like you believe the right things.
You get the words and the ideas right in your head and it will trickle down to your body. I never
would have said that because I never doubted it. I didn't need to say it. It was just assumed,
right? And so two things that happened to me in the wake of that, Allison, have been the most two
important changes in my life. And the first one was realizing that your head can go one way while
your habits go the other way and your heart will tend to follow the habits. That was a really
important realization. And that explains so much about life, why I don't just feel the way I say I
feel, but rather I often feel the way I practice myself into this emotional place.
Another way to put it would be you can't think your way out of a problem you didn't think your way
into. You practiced your way there, so you need to practice your way out. So this was really
important for me. in the context of formation in the spiritual disciplines so that's actually what
i went on to write about as i started to recover in my mid-30s but the second part of this that
came a little later and i realized oh my gosh this is just as important if not more was the whole
embodied part of that that you can't actually really talk about spiritual formation and habit
without talking seriously about embodiment because we're talking about dysregulation between what
you truly think you believe and what your body is trained to experience we're talking about the
difference between worldview and education upper and lower and that led me to an embodiment place
and i would say now oh my gosh this is not just a realm of spiritual disciplines this is a realm of
physical disciplines this is actually the question of what do you do on the daily with with your
body and why is everything you do physically far more spiritually important than you think,
and everything you do spiritually far more physically important than you think. Just one more way
to sum that up, kind of like I said earlier, is when your head goes this way and your habits go
that way, your heart tends to follow the habit, right? And I think another way to put that is when
your thoughts go one way. But your embodied practices go the other way. Your brain tends to be
formed by the embodied practices as much, if not more than the thought part, like it's a joint
effort. So I didn't realize that. So a lot of my practice and writing and life has become really
attentive to spiritual and physical discipline and how they're forming me emotionally and thought
wise and belief wise far more than I ever knew. I want to get the book is very practical and I want
to get into some of the practicality of that. But it sounds like. The mind part, because you talk
in the book about, you know, I'm a serious Christian, reciting scripture. Your mental habits,
for lack of a better word, were not bad. No. In that sense.
Yeah. I do say so myself. Yeah. Right. It still just wasn't enough to where it was also,
it was unintegrated. It was fragmented from the physical. Is that how we could put it? That's a
great way to put it. For example, I remember another iconic moment during that time where I was
sitting in my 18th floor office in my new law firm. I think I'm a second-year associate.
Beautiful office, important job. I'm getting paid more than I've ever gotten paid in my life. I
have a wife and two children. From the outside, everything should be great. I even remember it was
a beautiful day outside the window. I'm overlooking the river. It's incredible. Everything is going
right in my life if you look from the outside.
But in my mind, I was a house on fire. And I didn't know why.
Everything that I thought about my life, it's like, this is good. I've got a great job. I've got a
great family. I've got a great future. But my mind felt like,
my body, like my internal life felt like everything is closing in. Everything is ending.
And I didn't know the word for... then you know i didn't know the word for dysregulation i i now
realize i was having sort of constant panic attacks induced by insomnia induced by a hurried and
anxious way of life but i thought i was just losing my mind and like this was a one-way street
towards the insane asylum and and that really started to scare me and i just wish i knew then that
You know, the title of the book, The Body Teaches the Soul. I just wish I knew that there were
physical practices I could engage in that would calm that emotional state.
Because I kept trying to solve it with saying more Bible verses. The problem was I already believed
them. I just wasn't putting them into practice. And we were made to be this, you know,
divine union of... and physical, this divine union of head and body and heart. And that's why we
have so many words for it. I was disintegrated. And now I've learned so much more about how to
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How did you, when you got out of that ER moment, you had to face the reality,
when you reached out for help, what did you find? How did you begin to put the pieces together?
And I like to ask this question for so many of my listeners. Sometimes you receive advice that's
not helpful. And I think that's helpful to name. So what was helpful and what wasn't helpful as you
started to realize, I've got to change something? Yeah. I think what wasn't helpful was that most
people around me had the same either myopic or one-sided view of my struggle that I did.
So far from blaming them. I just think we didn't know enough physically and spiritually.
at that time now this was only 10 years ago right but i do think we're kind of having a renaissance
and neurology and spiritual formation and understanding of how these two things go together i think
i grew up in a in an era i mean the 20th century is absolutely a gnostic era where where and we can
get more into this if you want but where people tend to over spiritualize the bible and
christianity and tend to minimize the physicality this actually happening secular culture as much
as christianity so a lot of people around me had the similar kind of problematic viewpoints so
practically speaking when i went to the emergency room they saw it strictly as a physical anxiety
problem here are some sleeping pills yes psychology did it too that's right they were like the
appeal wasn't just the religious community that's right they that was the best answer they could
give and i don't Don't necessarily blame them. When I went to a lot of my friends and even
counselors, they were like, you know, this is your identities and work and, you know,
you're believing the wrong things. And they weren't wrong. Again, it had become just not in the way
that we thought. I mean, again, with what hands did I pick up my heart and place it in the identity
of habit or in the identity of work? I think by habit. Right. So it wasn't a belief problem.
It was a habit problem. And all these things were.
Yeah, not super helpful. But let me say what was really helpful because I think this is also really
important. And I don't want to like dunk on culture or my friends or the counselors and just say,
you know, I already had it wrong and I finally figured it out. You know what was helpful is I
talked to a ton of people and a ton of people listened to me and a ton of people had empathy for me
and a ton of people wanted to pray for me and a ton of people wanted to help me. And in the
aggregate, the Lord used those conversations to start to put ends together that I had never put
before. which is why I went on to write about it.
Their presence was extraordinarily helpful. They didn't need to know all the right answers, and I
don't blame them for not. So I'm very grateful I had people to talk to. And if anybody's
experiencing something like this, you have to talk to people, therapists and friends included, even
though, as it turns out, a lot of them only had kind of one side of the answer. But you were about
to say something I noticed. So what were you going to interject with? You're saying so much good. I
want to... underline it for the listener that so often when there is that that divide between and I
love how you talk about it the the mind or the belief and the habits of the body it's not that some
I love how you're saying it it's not that Because if we leave it in the mind, it's all about I
should just have less idolatry or I should just be able to practice this,
take a pill, which sometimes does help and is sometimes necessary. But what we're missing, and you
used that word Gnosticism. Tell us a little bit more. I want to anchor this discussion.
That was a heresy in the early centuries that we fall into as Christians. And for the listener,
what happens is if you're dealing with anxiety, If the body isn't part of the healing conversation,
we're missing a huge piece of this. So tell us what you mean by functional Gnosticism and how that
actually, how we're kind of living that inadvertently in many ways in our faith communities,
also in therapeutic communities, but particularly sometimes in faith communities. Absolutely. And
this is the core of The Body Teaches the Soul. This is the theological foundation upon which all
the practices and habits are built. Genesis 2-7. lays out the view of a human person.
It says God created Adam out of the dust, that is physical stuff, and then breathed the spirit of
life into him. That is a spiritual miracle. And the combination of that physical and the spiritual
is a soul. The King James Version says a living soul was born.
And we could go a lot of different directions, but I'm going to keep this short and basic. That
means what Christianity has always believed and what the Bible teaches over and over is that a
human being is a divine combination of the spiritual and the physical. It is unlike anything else
in the universe. This is kind of why we are the image of God in a unique way.
We are just... wildly beautiful and wonderful and complicated and, by the way,
mysterious. We are a divine union of the physical and spiritual, and that's not really a math
equation. It's a spiritual reality that we're always digging deeper into. But it means you can make
two major heresies in the world, and it's been happening for thousands and thousands of years.
You can make a spiritual heresy and sort of say, essentially what we are is really,
at the end of the day, just spiritual. And we call that Gnosticism, also Manichaeism, lots of
different names. But it's recurrent. It happens all the time. It's happening now as much as it was
happening in the era that the New Testament was written. And lots of Paul's writings are actually
combating this. Lots of the early church fathers were combating this. They were like, no, you can't
just say Jesus was God and not actually a human body. He was human. This is really important.
Because they were combating this idolatry of the spiritual side of us. We also know there's another
side of that idolatry. you can say actually everything's material it's not spiritual and we see
this all over the 20 21st century um it actually started to really come about in the enlightenment
and darwinism this is not new but it's accelerated to a pretty wild extreme where you get people
literally saying i'm just the atoms um and the bible of course preaches against that like no no far
more than your body but you are your body you know and so where you you end up is you say we
christians can't make these errors we can't ignore the spiritual but nor can we idolize the
material we need to and you can picture a triangle here those two at the bottom like ends of the
extreme you want to picture a triangle up towards something that is different but combined and that
is we want to image god which means we're always going to be attentive to the spiritual and the
physical and if you are trying to solve your mental health crisis just by reading bible verses
you're probably ignoring the gift of the body that God gave you. And you're trying to solve your
mental health problem just by taking pills. You are ignoring the gift of the spiritual brain that
God gave you. And if you're trying to come at it as an integrated whole, okay, you're not just
doing something wise. You're doing something biblical because that's who you are. Oh,
that's such a word. You could even add only through talk therapy.
that yes you can't incorporate some component of the nervous system the body the breath yeah yes
actually you know and probably a lot of listeners will be familiar um reading the body keeps the
school which was actually originally the inspiration of my title.
I was trying to play on it a little bit by saying the body teaches the soul.
You get some great outlines there. I mean, people generally are starting to realize two things,
that the pill revolution is insufficient. If you're not doing real talk therapy,
addressing the truth claims in your upper brain and how they bear on the lower body.
then you're missing something. So increasingly, even though it's kind of a popular heresy, like,
oh, you just need a pill to solve your depression problem. What I found in all my research is that
no psychiatrist worth their salt really thinks that. They think,
oh, you absolutely need good talk therapy, which is another way of saying you need spiritual truth
claims. You need to be in touch with what reality actually is. But hopefully those same people
would realize that there are times when talk therapy is not enough. In fact,
if a doctor can get you to exercise, be in friendship often throughout the week,
take walks outside and eat right and not work too much and sleep eight hours, that is going to be
far better than any pill they could ever give you. They would much rather have you doing that than
almost taking any pill. They recognize those are more successful things. So people want this upper
-lower approach. And I think the great joy for me working on this book was realizing It's what the
Bible's prescribed for years. And all these things that we ought to do, sleep and exercise and
breathing, which I write about in the book, these are chapters, are dignified with the spiritual
gifts of God. Like, this is what we're doing. Yeah. I love that you're taking it all the way back
to how we were made in the beginning. That's so powerful. I had Dr.
Hilary McBride on the... podcast and we were talking about to your point in psychology i learned
the top down approaches and the bottom up approaches to healing and you and some therapists lean in
different directions and that it takes different forms of feeling but the top down is the let's
let's look at the cognitive let's look at the thoughts let's look at and you can apply this to
spirituality as well the top down is sort of the the thinking and the kind of what happens you know
in the in the in the upper part of our brain and then the bottom up is starting with the body
what's going on in the body and that's the part that yes was neglected yes and is now coming back
into your point and and i'll i will say that you know different people different people ask me i'll
all Sometimes you need one more than the other. In your case, you didn't need that.
You needed the bottom up. Same with me. My thoughts were good. That's right.
They were perfectly logical. They were just completely disconnected from my body. That's right.
And likewise, I meet plenty of people at my gym, for example, who are living a great,
healthy lifestyle. They're doing the right things. They know about this. And they are crumbling.
Yes. Because they think at the end of the day, they are a conglomeration of atoms and love in the
world is an illusion. Yeah. I mean, they're falling apart because they're trying to say, how do I
explain my love for my children? How do I explain the problems of my marriage? And I'm like, truth
claims, worldview, formation, Christian evangelism. This is back to the basics. But, you know,
sometimes people need that. But I find a lot of people in Christianity like me are doing okay on
the worldview. Yeah. That's a huge generalization. But I meet a lot of people like that, but
they've completely ignored their body. The part of their worldview that's not working is they're
kind of Gnostic in their worldview. So take us there, because that's where much of the focus of the
book is. Because even in psychology, we've kind of begun, like you said, there is this renaissance
these last several years in understanding this. But let's flip it to spiritual formation, where I
still think we're a little behind on that. We're not often going into...
church services. And again, I love how you said that, like we're all doing the best we can.
But for those listening, you have this metaphor of gardening the body.
And this is spiritual practice, right? This is not separate from your,
these habits are not separate from your spiritual habits. Talk us through what that looks like for
you and how you practice it. You bet. I'll give you the first. five, six chapters of the book,
and then I'll try to give a short example of one, and then you can decide which one you want to go
to next.
After all that introductory work that we just talked about, the book is very practical. Breathing,
thinking, eating, sleeping, exercise, sickness, sex.
Those are the first seven, if you will.
Breathing was huge for me. The book starts with breathing because breathing is the place where the
upper meets the lower in an extraordinarily unique way. And we could do an hour-long podcast just
about the miracle of breath, spirituality of breath in Genesis 2-7, the wild integration of the
upper and lower in breath. Breathing, of course, is the one vital life function that your upper
brain can take control of and then regulate your lower body through. And so I went from a place of
thinking breathing exercises. And breath prayers were kind of woo-woo and suspect and maybe
Eastern to realizing, oh my gosh, this is fully Christian. No wonder so many other people realize
the importance of breath. And breath prayers became, and still to this day,
you know, yesterday I was doing some breath prayers. It's just become an integral practice for me
because what's happening in a breath prayer, and I like to do box breathing where you sort of
breathe up for a couple seconds, inhale, hold for a couple seconds. Exhale for a couple seconds.
Hold for a couple seconds. Probably most of your listeners have heard of this. So that's a lower
body exercise, right? And I like to combine it with Psalm 23. The Lord is my shepherd on the
inhale. I shall not want on the exhale. And for me, that is not only effective.
It has saved me from so many panic attacks. It's helped me re-regulate to get back to my kids in
the house and out of angry moments. But it also... integrates the upper and the lower.
We're talking about bringing the spiritual truth to a lower body exercise. And I could talk about
it for a long time, but that's a great example of how just in one place of the body, this theology
is being applied into a spiritual physical discipline.
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Did
it take you a while to learn to trust that?
It took me a while to trust the breath. Did it take you a while?
And I'm thinking of the listener who maybe has tried it and it initially can feel a little,
we're so used to being in our minds. I'm just curious how your journey was with that. It took me a
lot of practice. And if you think about it, this is going to make sense in every area of life.
If somebody says, hey, you should really exercise or sleep differently. If you understand right,
it's not going to be right the first time you go to the gym. You're going to need a lot of
practice. And this is kind of Allison where the gardening metaphor becomes so important. The
gardening metaphor runs throughout the book. And it's the idea that the best way to think about
your body. is a garden the original vocation in eden is you we were gardeners we still are and the
gardening metaphor helps you in a couple different ways one you know that no gardening work is fast
like nothing ever happens overnight nothing ever is automatic anything regarding your body is going
to be happening at the pace of a garden but we also know from working in gardens that there is real
change this is where the The difference of, I think you solve the agency problem when you take the
gardening metaphor. If you do nothing to your farm, you know what's going to happen. It's going to
become a desert or a jungle. A gardener knows that they have to act. And when it comes to our
bodies, if you want a different mental health outcome,
then you need to practice breathing. You need to practice sleeping. You need to work at the pace of
a garden. But importantly, gardeners also know something else. It's not autonomous.
You don't have complete control. You're dealing with the soil that you were given. You're dealing
with the weather patterns that you have. And that means you're dealing with the body that you're
given. We're different. Our bodies are different. And you've got to garden yours, not someone
else's. And you've got to realize, man, they have different soil here. They won the dopamine
lottery. I didn't. But that doesn't mean you stop gardening. That means, okay, what do I do with my
plot of land? And the Bible is full of parables talking exactly to this. How do you be faithful
with what you've given? How do you garden what you've been given? This is why Jesus talked in
farming so much, because spiritual growth, what do we call it? The fruits of the Spirit. It's
fruit. You stay connected to the vine. So think about gardening. You're working in conjunction with
God, and that means any practice like this is going to be slow. It's going to take practice,
but it's very real, and there's very real fruit. I love that. I love that.
It's a slower way. We say in Boundaries for Your Soul, it's a slower way to get to where you want
to be.
That's great. I love that. It's a slower way because if you don't do it,
you're never going to get to where you want to be. But it is patient work.
Before I let you go, I loved this chapter.
It's just a beautiful chapter on sickness and lament. But in particular, you talk about learning to
cry as a discipline. Yes. And I thought that was just really beautiful.
How tell us a little bit about that, what that was like for you. And I just I thought it was really
what a beautiful way to think of tears as a embodied spiritual practice.
Yeah. You know, I think I probably had a overdeveloped view of the fall before I realized the
goodness of the body. So I've always been kind of solid, so to speak, on, hey, we fall apart.
Our bodies are dying. There's tragedy in the world. Cancer happens.
And then as I started to realize, oh my gosh, but our bodies are beautiful. They're important.
They're given. God created us with bodies. He redeemed us through the body of his son. He's going
to resurrect us to new embodied life. Clearly he loves bodies. So a lot of the book is in that lane
of saying your body is a gift. It's good. You should be stewarding it, gardening it, eat
differently, sleep differently. But you don't want people to think about this. without really
wrestling with the other reality, that it is broken, it is fallen. And that needs to be squarely in
the middle of your embodied theology, which is why I put the chapter literally actually squarely in
the middle of the book, because if you don't understand the fall and how your body's broken, you
get all this wrong, right? And so it's not a chapter of answers. I mean,
this is the problem of... This is the problem of sickness and the problem of fall.
And better theologians and writers than me have not solved it, right? The best answers we have is
that, well, God is with you in the pain.
He's with you. And guess what? He cries just like you. One of the wildest verses in the Bible,
also the shortest. You learn it as a kid, Jesus wept. And that idea is at the core of the chapter,
that if we don't learn how to, like Jesus, go to the tomb of Lazarus.
And that means that, like Jesus, you walk to the dying body that you have. And your first response
is not, don't worry, it's going to be resurrected. Don't worry, we can do something about this. Oh,
we're going to fix this. First response is to be like, this is called suffering. This is called
pain. Let's cry. Let's cry. Let's weep over this. This is not how it's meant to be.
All answers are going to be hollow if you don't learn to cry like Jesus. And as it turns out, Your
body's meant to do it. It's kind of fascinating, right, that we cry externally at our eyes where
everybody's looking. It binds us to each other. It shows that we are hurting and other people
notice it. I mean, you know, every time I write about this or talk about it, even right now, I'm
like, I kind of want to cry because I need it. I need it. And you were meant to.
So everybody needs to learn it. Everybody needs to learn to lament. And then you need to get to the
work on gardening your body and hope for the resurrection. It is a softening and it's so
fascinating. It's a physical softening that leads to an emotional and kind of mental release
because it is that tears is that release of I can't I can't solve it. That's kind of the whole
point. Yes. I have to to grieve it. What would you say as we wind down here,
Justin, for the person listening who whose body is. tired or anxious or maybe numb,
what would you hope they most understand? You've given us so many gems,
but just speaking to that person now, what do you hope they most understand about how God meets us
through the body?
I like to sum it up like this, and I put it in every chapter in the book, that your habits won't
change God's love for you, but God's love for you should change your habits. And that's it.
And applied, that means right where you are right now and all your brokenness and all your struggle
and your suffering, God loves you. He's redeemed you. He has no questions in his mind about how
much he loves you, how carefully he made you, and what he's going to do with your future in life.
You have a lot of questions, but he doesn't. He loves you. And you can't change that. This is the
wonderful doctrine of grace, of justification by faith alone. saved by any of this but a real if
you believe that if you agree and amen with everything i just said you have something to do you
have something to do god's love for you should change your habits and that's the most hopeful non
-legalistic thing i could ever tell you because it's the reality the beautiful reality that god has
called you into agency over your body he's called you to garden it Which means you have the
delightful ability to get to work, to go do something. You are not stuck with the depression you
have right now. You're just not. If you think you are, you're actually believing a plain lie from
the enemy. And it might be a spiritual attack or it might be a doctor who told you, you know,
you're just like this. But you're not. God has built the grace of neuroplasticity into your brain,
which is kind of the coolest thing ever. You're not stuck with the patterns you have, the brain you
have, the addictions you have. He wants to change you, mind, body, soul. And that is such good
news. So I would just invite you, rooted in that love of God, to get to work,
start the gardening process. And the body teaches the soul is hopefully a really practical primer
on how to do that. It really is. And I love that you start with the breath because that is
literally the next, you know, that is something we can all. do. And it is so powerful.
It is such a practical book. It's just so well organized and structured and accessible and grounded
in biblical and theological wisdom, but just such practical takeaways.
Tell my listeners where they can find your work and this book in particular,
but also some of the other things you've put out into the world. They're all really, really great.
Oh, thank you. You can... Go one of two directions. You can go to my website,
which is justinwitmoreearly.com. Very Google-able. Justin Early, author, lawyer. We'll get you
there. And because, by the way, we didn't talk about this in the conversation. I still practice
law. Sitting in my law desk right now, taking a break between client meetings. But you can find my
website there. Join my email list if you kind of want to follow along, long form. And all my books
are listed on the website. I also do post on Instagram. So you're welcome to follow me at Justin
Wentmore Early. And I post a lot of short form habits for parenting, spiritual disciplines,
body teaches the soul stuff like we just talked about. I mentioned in my story that I wrote about
spiritual disciplines before I ever got to physical disciplines. So if you go on my website,
you can see earlier works on spiritual disciplines for everyday workers. Spiritual disciplines for
parents spiritual disciplines for friend groups But this one the body teaches the soul is really on
physical disciplines is particularly for mental health We were talking before we started recording
about being bivocational, and I really appreciate that because you work. I mean,
you're a dad and you're a full-time attorney, and you are living these truths that you write about
and speak about. They're really coming from, it's not like you're sitting around, you have to put
this into practice in very real circumstances. And it's a great gift to me.
I'm sitting here at my desk. I'm the CEO and one of the founding partners of our law firm. It's
called a vote illegal. If you want to go look it up, we do all kinds of law. And this is not an
advertisement, but we work with regular people. I help people buy and sell companies. I help people
write contracts. I'm a business lawyer. My partners do all kinds of litigation and employment law
and all this stuff. But that means I live in a realm where I'm not paid to go think about.
I don't know, having a quiet time for two or three hours. I'm not a missionary anymore in that
sense. You're in the real world. And that is no shade on anybody in full-time ministry.
We need you. We need your writings, and we need you to be spiritually healthy, so go do it. But I
sort of sit in a place where my readers are more or less like me. They're wrestling through how
hard it is to be a young parent. My boys are between 7 and 14 right now.
It's tiring. I wrestled through running a law firm and making payroll next month and getting
clients. And that's hard on your mental health. And so all of this stuff for me is born out of I
need to be a healthy human body and I need to be a healthy spiritual being,
which is to say I need to be a healthy soul. If I'm going to be a good CEO of Avoto Legal, if I'm
going to have anything worth writing about, I have to guard in my body and my mind to bring it to
the task. And lots of us. forget we think we'll give it all to our kids you know we'll serve them
and we're trying to do a good thing but your kids need a mentally healthy mom you know your kids
need a dad who's not a workaholic and by the way those are the two things i struggle with being
mentally unhealthy and being a workaholic so i i don't i don't write about anything i'm not deeply
struggling with so if you read my works you're going to read about the struggle not about the
idealized version of how this happens yeah it's just a really like you said we need all different
types of people but it is a really unique angle that you bring and um just such a grounded in in
like you said just a very full life um this is for everybody oh it's full my main struggle right
now is uh How to not live a super unhealthy life doing two jobs,
writing, lawyering, while writing about a healthy life. Oh, boy. The irony is not lost on my wife
and I. It's hard. But I do believe, and I told you this before we started recording,
Allison, I really do believe the Lord has called me to this because I think it's that place of
struggle. How do you do this well that gives me anything to write about in the first place? So if
anybody wants to follow along. I'll be posting on my website, and I'll be lawyering at a vote
illegal, and you can watch me in the struggle. But I'm going to speak to you out of the struggle,
not out of the perfection. I love it. That's the best we can do is just honor it. Honor it honestly
and openly and with our bodies, you know. Yes, yes, absolutely. For me,
the open hands is one of the most just reminding, oh, you know, it goes with the breath,
the open hands. It does. It really helps, the physicalization of that. I'll tack this one on right
to the end. I was always a little bit, I grew up Presbyterian. I was a little bit nervous to open
hands and lift hands because I was like, I don't know, it's performative, it's a fad. And then I
learned all this stuff about the body and how your mind changes. You're more open. You actually are
in posture of reception. You learn better. And I was like, oh, I need to get my body to the work of
worship. All right, let's put the hands up. It's really changed me. It's a good habit.
I really love that framing. It is. And by the way, that's chapter 9 in the book,
how you need to worship differently at church because of your body. Whoa, okay.
That's a good teaser. Well, thank you, Justin, for your time, and we wish you all the best as you
head back into the rest of your day. And pray that this conversation goes with you. And we're just
so grateful for what you're putting into the world. And we're glad to be here with you in
partnership in this work of soul mending and soul tending. Thank you, Allison. It's been a delight.
Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you
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are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.
Episode Show Notes
What do you do when the person who was supposed to nurture you becomes the source of your deepest wounds?
In this episode, Dr. Alison sits down with writer, speaker, and host of the Big Boo Cast, Melanie Shankle to explore the complicated terrain of mother wounds, emotional enmeshment, and the long road toward healing.
From the outside, it can look like “normal family tension.”
But in the body, something feels off.
Together, they explore:
- What happens when your nervous system knew something wasn’t safe before you had language for it
- The quiet impact of criticism, competitiveness, and emotional parentification
- How shame can keep you believing the problem is you
- The difference between honoring a parent and tolerating harm
- Why distance sometimes becomes part of healing
This is not a conversation about blame.
It’s a conversation about truth-telling.
About untangling enmeshment.
About breaking generational patterns.
About discovering what safety actually feels like.
If you’ve ever felt torn between loyalty and self-protection…
If you’ve wondered whether what you experienced “counts”…
If you’re learning to trust what your body has always known…
This episode is honest, nuanced, and ultimately hopeful.
Because healing one life can change a generation.
More Resources:
Connect with @melanieshankle on Instagram
Order Melanie’s latest book Here Be Dragons.
Connect with @dralisoncook on Instagram
Join the 80,000+ soul menders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices here.
If you liked this episode, then you’ll love:
What Does It Mean to Honor Your Parents?
Episode 128: Generational Trauma—Overcoming Inherited Dysfunction & Legacy Burdens with therapist Gina Birkemeier
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
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© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.
TRANSCRIPT
So much of my self -image, so much of my self -doubt, so much of everything came
from the voice in my head, which was my mom's voice. She was the first person that
ever made me feel like I wasn't ever going to be good enough. I had lived so much
of my life in that self -hatred of if I could just do this, if I could just act
right, if I could just behave in a certain way. And so all of a sudden, the grace
to be like, no, I just accept you however you are. It's biblical. I mean, the
truth set me free. And so that changed the trajectory of my life.
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm Dr.
Allison. I'm so glad you're here with me this week. If you're new here, I'm
especially glad you've joined us. This podcast is a space where we try to live
honestly, where psychology and faith aren't at odds, but always in conversation. We
care about the complexity of real human stories. We slow down, we name what's hard,
and we look for wisdom that is both grounded and compassionate. This is our weekly
deep dive episode where we take one topic and explore it more fully. Before we jump
into today's conversation, I want to briefly connect it to something we explored back
in January on The Best of You Every Day. These are the daily eight minute,
sometimes more devotionals where we anchor in scripture and reflect through the lens
of psychology. And in this episode in January, it's called What Does It Mean to
Honor Your Parents? We wrestled with Exodus 2012, which is the commandment of the
Ten Commandments to honor your mother and father. And we asked a really important
question. How do we approach harmful parenting without becoming reactive, without
becoming kind of the way our culture sometimes can right now, which is to cut off
too quickly, while still honoring the reality of harm? Because honoring doesn't mean
denying. And it doesn't mean tolerating harm. It means learning how to live
truthfully and wisely in the aftermath of what shaped us. Today's conversation lives
right in that tension. Today on the show, I'm talking with Melanie Schenkel. She's a
beloved writer, speaker, and the co -host of the Big Boo Cast podcast. And her book,
Here Be Dragons, Navigating Mean Girls, Motherhood, and Other Mysteries of Life was
an instant New York Times bestseller. From the very first page, you can feel it.
This is a story about facing what's been hidden, about looking honestly at family
dynamics that shaped you. even when they're painful, confusing, or layered with
moments of love. And as I was reading her book, I kept thinking, these are the
very themes we talk about on this podcast all the time. Prentification, enmeshment,
toxicity that often registers in the body before we understand what's happening with
our minds, and that complicated space where you love your family and yet something
isn't right. When someone isn't taking accountability and when distance becomes the
path. toward healing. One of the most striking parts of Melanie's story is how her
body knew something was off before her mind did. And so many of you tell me about
a similar experience. You talk about how not having the language for what happened
was so hard or feeling like I can't quite name it but my body feels anxious.
Melanie talks about how her nervous system was carrying signals long before she
consciously understood the pattern she was living inside of. We talk about what it
means to grow up taking care of a parent emotionally, to feel responsible for a
parent's feelings, to become the steady one, the good one, the one who manages the
room. And then... as adults, to realize you've internalized those patterns,
that you may have taken on some of your own mother's ways of coping, that you may
be repeating dynamics you swore you'd never repeat. There's so much compassion in
this conversation because healing isn't about laying blame, right? It's not about
laying shame on somebody. It's about becoming aware of the patterns that shaped us.
It's about telling the truth without turning cruel, but so that we can free our own
selves. It's about honoring reality in a way that brings healing not only to our
own souls, but to everyone who will face that truth with us.
And we talk also about something many of you wrestle with quietly. What do you do
when healing changes the shape of a relationship? At the end of our conversation,
we touch on Melanie's decision to stop having contact with her mom. And I want to
say this clearly. This decision is hard. It's painful. It's deeply nuanced.
There's grief involved. There's no one size fits all answer when it comes to contact
or distance with a parent who has harmed you. Some relationships can shift with
different boundaries. Some can soften with a little space. can change with healthy
conversations and even undergo seasons of repair and deep healing.
And some require limited contact. And for some people, this becomes the healthiest
path forward, especially where there has been sustained, prolonged harm. What I
appreciate so much about Melanie's story, both in the book and in our conversation,
is that she doesn't present it as simple or clean. It's layered. It's emotional.
It's costly. It's deeply personal. No matter what kind of family of origin you came
out of, whatever parenting you had, or whatever season of life you're in now,
there's something in it that rings true for all of us. If you've ever felt torn
between loyalty and self -protection, if you've ever wondered what honoring a parent
really means when harm is involved, if you've ever sensed in your body that
something wasn't right but didn't yet have words for it, this conversation is for
you. It's honest, it's brave, and ultimately it's hopeful because at the heart of
Melanie's story isn't just rupture, but healing. What happens when you stop denying
what your body already knows? What happens when you begin to untangle enmeshment?
What happens when you get into healthier relationships and start to realize how old
patterns have shaped you? What happens when you begin to live with clarity instead
of confusion? I'm so grateful that Melanie trusted us with her story. Please enjoy
my conversation. with Melanie Schenkel.
I am so thrilled to have this conversation with you, Melanie. For the listener,
we were just talking offline a little bit about this. It's such a sensitive topic
and it really touches on so many of us. I'm going to kind of call it the mother
wound. That's a loose category.
talk about it so beautifully in your book. And we'll get into why it's so
sensitive. But before we even get into our conversation, what I want to name, as
I'm reading this book, Here Be Dragons, your story in some ways,
not in all ways, is extreme in the sense of just the level of harm that was
ongoing. And also, so many of us can find elements of our stories in it.
yeah and also it's such a tender topic because that relationship is so sacred and
something that is so and you you illustrate this so beautifully and we're going to
get into it in the book it brings out so much in us we want to protect that
relationship so many of us are moms we're so aware of our own failings how we've
been so imperfect we're so scared you know what i mean it's yes it's so tender for
so many reasons i just want to start by saying thank you for being willing to
speak so honestly just It's such an honest book into this really delicate
relationship. Yeah, it's a really hard, and you know, you said offline and it's so
true, is I mean, I did not write this book until after my mother had passed away.
I don't think it's, I don't think I could have been this honest. had she still
been living. So there was a freedom in that because I think so many people are
still wrestling with it's still a struggle. You know, I'm still trying to figure out
how to navigate as a grown woman, as a mother yourself, how do you navigate your
relationship with your mom? And if anything, after writing this book, I'm like, wow,
there are a lot of us out there that are trying to. figure this out and do it
well you know. It is so true and we'll get into that it but especially I think in
our generation we're roughly the same age and then you can also say and you allude
to this in the book there are ways in which our generation has overcorrected. Yes,
for sure. Right? Yeah, for sure. And we're seeing some of the pendulum swing on
that, you know, with the over -parenting. So before we dive into the deep end,
because you can tell I'm chomping to get there, I want to set the context for my
listeners who haven't yet read your book, and I can't recommend it enough. You have
said that the first mean girl you ever encountered was your own mother. And so for
listeners... for whom, you know, this is new, take us back into that home
environment and help us understand what that dynamic actually looked like. Yeah,
you know, I tell the story in the book, but my parents got divorced when I when I
was eight years old is when they first separated for the first time, they didn't
get divorced until I was nine, 10. But It was the realization of and I think it
took it was almost you don't recognize what it is, because what I say is when
you're a kid, I think part of God's protection is that whatever you grow up in is
what you think is normal. Like you just assume this is the way all families work
and this is the dynamic. So it was almost before I got to college when I started
to look at other mothers and daughters and thought. they don't function the way my
mom and I function. And so I started to realize that so much of my self -image,
so much of my self -doubt, so much of everything came from the voice in my head,
which was my mom's voice that always told me, if you could just act better, then I
could be better. If you weren't such a disappointment, if you could be this thing
for me, if you could live up to this standard. And she was constantly... tearing me
down and there was a competitiveness there um in terms of looks and um and kind of
almost even my dad's affection even though they were divorced i think there was such
a resentment there because my dad and i were so close and so it almost took
watching my daughter in high school go through her mean girl stuff that she had to
deal with for me to put language to it and go, oh, that the first person that
ever did that to me was my mom. She was the first person that ever made me feel
like I wasn't ever going to be good enough. What a just vivid reality check.
And you're saying something so profound. And you talk about this in the book, that
there's a protection in the fact that we see our own families as normal. But also
there's a whole undoing that then later on in life, you have to go back and rewire
yourself from an attachment perspective of, oh, you describe in the book how this
wasn't safe. Well, what does that do to a nervous system that learned young,
this is what quote unquote safety is supposed to be. So why is it landing so funny
on my nervous system?
well put as a child, kind of feeling in your body that you wanted to get away
from your mom. Yeah. But not knowing why, right? That's that dissonance from such a,
it's like your body knew. Yes. Before your mind did. Can you tell us a little bit
about that? That's, you know, it's so funny, Allison, because there's, I tell the
story of the book, but there was, my mom used to always say, and kind of in a
resentful tone, that from the time I was like three, my mom's name was Suzanne, and
that I would walk in the kitchen and she said my eyes would kind of flash dark
and I would say, what doing, Suzanne? And I just thought that's such a metaphor for
kind of like the way that always was, because it was like, I think there was
always this question of like, what are you doing? Like something didn't seem. right
to me or seem safe. But as a kid, I couldn't, I couldn't name it. It was just,
it was this constant instability and a constant walking on eggshells. And so I look
back and I can remember that so clearly, just feeling that disconnect between what
felt true to me and what I was living in, which,
you know, how are you that perceptive as a kid? But there's just, I think, you
know, something is not right here. And to me, there's a beauty in God's design of
the nervous system that it's this registering this isn't safe, even though I'm being
told this is what safety is. Another thing I think that you said that was
interesting is you said you describe your childhood home as a house on fire that
you wouldn't realize you actually needed to escape until years later when you
realized it could destroy everything you actually wanted. to build yeah and I thought
again just that for my listeners we talk about trauma on the podcast but the way
you describe the visceral sense before the rational before the logical before you can
put names on things it just takes you into that because that's where shame enters
in right we yeah Yeah. And I think it's so funny. So my sister and I have been
going back through after my mom passed away. She got all these old VHS tapes of
like home movies of, you know, Christmas and holidays and things that my grandmother
recorded. And we've we've laughed, but it's. You can tell in every video, the
underlying theme is I'm so annoyed to be there. Like there's just a thing where my
body language is completely closed off. I'm rolling my eyes at everything that's
said. And I just remember this sense of, especially as I got into my high school
years and just started to know more where it was like, I just don't feel like I
belong here. This doesn't feel safe to me. I don't feel accepted here. I don't feel
loved here. I don't feel like my whole self is welcome here. And so it's been so
interesting. look back and go, everybody just thought I was a surly teenager. But I
was like, no, I was shutting down because of what I knew the response to my real
self was going to be. Here's what I wanted to ask you. So in the book, you're
telling us these experiences of,
for example, just how your mom made moments, especially as you were becoming a
teenager, that were really about you, about her there's one instance where you were
going through a really painful breakup and you just described like gosh you know i
i just gone through this really hard thing in my own life i think you were in
ninth grade and we were talking and then my mom started making it about her
boyfriend or her breakup is that am i yeah I mean,
it was always that, you know, I mean, she would come in and she would be like,
well, what's going on? And then she would start to tell me, well, you don't
understand what's going on with me. My boyfriend and I just broke up. She had this
on again, off again boyfriend all through high school. And there was just always
drama there. And she would bring me into it and treat me almost like a girlfriend,
but not in a healthy way. And just so I felt the burden of her emotional well
-being, which now I realize is. a mother your child should never feel the burden of
your emotional well -being and that's what as i'm listening i was like taking notes
i was like parentification emotional enmeshment um you know all these words that we
talk about all the time on the podcast you're describing so beautifully and the
confusion of and you say this again so well uh part of me is kind of mad But
part of me feels like I should take care of her. And I think that that's what's
so hard about that. Because I think I, as a kid, you want your mom to be okay.
And I loved her because she was my mom. So it was like, if I can just behave in
a way, if I can just give her what she needs, if I can just emotionally be there
for her, then she's going to be okay. And it's hard to separate that out. And you
think this was, you know, you can appreciate back in the 80s, there was not
language like enmeshment or attachment. We didn't know. any of this we had no
language around it and so i didn't know what i was feeling wasn't normal and so
that's what i yes so it's so well put i think for so many in our generation there
wasn't online social media where you could go and hear people talking on tick tock
for better or worse about what's happening to give it a name your muddle and so
again I'm guessing in hindsight you can put words on it, but in the moment,
was it just tremendous dissonance internally? Yes. Yes. It was just a constant.
And almost it felt like with her, sometimes the harder I tried, the more she would
sabotage and the more she would gaslight me. Like it almost, if I came in too
vulnerable, then she really took advantage of that. And I didn't understand what that
was. at the time or why that happened and so it would just make me and then there
was so much shame and guilt in me because all of this was and i bet there's
people that can relate to this all of this was masked in a lot of church language
too so i thought if i could just i just can't be a good enough christian if i
could just love jesus more than i could love her more or i could give her more of
what she needed and there again i look back and go that is never a child's
responsibility exactly in a parent's life
One of the things that I really respect your honesty. So we're talking about
patterns of constant criticism, parentification, where it's about her needs.
We're talking about a lot of competitiveness, like you're saying.
The minute you started comparing looks, the minute you started to have happiness.
sabotaging you. She also did it to herself. Even, you know, you talk about your
wedding day, you know, so many different really, that's what I mean by extreme.
Yeah. I think many of us can see moments, but pretty overt instances of just
undercutting you at every turn. You, Melanie,
you talk about how you in your own relationships, at least for a period of time,
adapted some of those same patterns in a way talk to us tell us a little bit
about that that was what was modeled for you so how in the world would you know
otherwise so how did that play out for you in your own relationships with women
during high school and college I mean, I think that I was raised in a way that
and I think when it comes into like to give you the backstory of my mom, my mom
was I say she was a high school beauty queen. She was beautiful. She was blonde.
She was blue eyed. She was the pride and joy of my grandmother. So she was always
I mean, when you look back at pictures of her, she was just immaculate. I mean,
she's like the 1960s dream, you know, with her baton twirler uniform and all the
stuff. And there's even a picture of me as a kid where I'm like, oh, for
Halloween, when I was eight years old. She basically dressed me as herself. I was
in a baton twirling uniform. I wore a mask with a blonde wig because obviously I'm
not blonde. I'm brunette. But that was the standard. And so and that vanity ran so
deep in that family line. So I was very much raised to believe that other women
were my competition, you know, where it was just who's prettier, who's better,
who can get this boy's attention. And so. I operated like that.
I mean, because that's what had been modeled for me. I just thought that's how
women were. And it was, you know, and now I look back and I was like, it was out
of my own insecurities that I felt like I didn't want anybody to be better than me
or I wanted to be the prettiest or I wanted to have, you know, all these boys
like me. And I would, you know, if a boy liked a friend, then I would try to go
after that guy, which was the very thing, you know, I was becoming a mean girl
because that's what I had learned. Of course, it makes sense. And the fact that you
connected those dots, I feel like it's going to be freeing to a lot of women who
then have shame about the patterns in their own lives. And it doesn't take away
responsibility, but it explains some of this learned behavior.
Yeah. And you and you look up and there is that you look back and go, oh, my
gosh, like, I can't believe that I was that person. And and I guess the gift is,
is like I've raised my daughter to be so different because, you know, this is so
harmful. And like women are always stronger when we're building each other up and
we're going to be a girl's girl. And there is no competition and all of us make
each other better. But. That has to be modeled for you. You know, you just whatever
you see in your home is what seems normal to you. That's right. And how your own
soul learns to live out of love versus out of scarcity. There's a lot in that I
resonated with. I want to. So I want the listener where I feel like I'm fast
tracking. It's it's such a powerful narrative that puts you in.
Those moments. And I think storytelling is a really powerful way to heal because
it's cathartic. You feel it with you. It's really beautifully written. Thank you.
And I'd love now to talk a little bit about where you are today and your own
healing journey. Yeah. If that's OK. Yeah. And I'd like to kind of cover a couple
of different fronts you touch on in the book as well as kind of.
how you're on the ongoing work of retraining your own soul. So if it's okay,
I noticed in the book, and I'd love for you to speak to each of these three, you
talk about meeting a healthy friend, reconnecting with Jesus, and then meeting your
now husband as three pillars of your own turning point toward healing.
Could you tell us a little bit about, and then I would say there's a fourth one,
which is, when you had kids of your own yeah and you actually then began to set
stronger boundaries with your mom yeah I, um,
yeah, I think for me first, I think in college, a huge turning point for me was I
met my best friend. She's still my best friend. Um, I call her Gully. That's her
maiden name. Um, her first name's really Amy, but, um, but we met in college. She
was also from divorced parents. Um, she also had hers was her father in her case
who, um, was an alcoholic and toxic. And so she and I just,
as we got to know each other, we kind of bonded. And it was that moment of, you
know, what does C .S. Lewis say, you know, friendship is when you're like, you're
not the only one. It was just all of a sudden, it's like I found this safe place.
And for the first time in a female friendship, I felt so safe and so seen and so
loved. Um, because we could identify it was the, she was the first person and now
there've been several, but she was the first person who was like, yes, I've
experienced some of these things too. And I get what you're saying, because I think
the hard part is up until that point, I really did always think the problem was
me. You know, I just hadn't got to the point of. Because I didn't know and nobody
tells you any differently and nobody sees what goes on inside the walls of your
home except for you. I mean, even when I wrote this book, my dad read it after
the fact and he was like, I didn't know all this was going on to this extent.
Because I didn't talk about it because I thought it's because something's wrong with
me. So to have that safe space and a friendship to have somebody say, I see this
and I see the value in you. And for me to look at her and see how lovable she
was made me realize that maybe I could be lovable too. So that was a real shift
for me. How old were you at that point? I was, we, we first met, I was 19.
So it was my sophomore year of college. And so that was a pivotal point.
The other thing that happened was towards the end of college. And I mean, I
continued. Listen, I made I made bad decisions. I mean, if there was a theme for
college, it was bad decisions. But after I had I had been engaged,
I had broken off that engagement because I realized it was I tended to go after.
guys that treated me the way my mom treated me. So that would say nice things,
but then tear me down and make me feel insecure and gaslight me. And that's what I
thought healthy looked like. So I was coming out of that engagement and another good
girlfriend at that time said to me, you need to go to this Bible study. It's
called Breakaway. It's at Texas A &M. They still have it to this day, but back then
it was really small. And I had grown up in church. I mean, that's the irony. I'd
grown up in church. I knew Jesus. I knew all of that. That was the first time
that I walked into a setting where my faith became real to me, where I really saw
Jesus for what he was and the healer that he is. And that it wasn't just about
salvation. You know, it wasn't just about, OK, you know, so you won't go to hell.
It was like, no, he's really here to heal and to make you whole and to and to
fix you where you've been broken and wounded, you know. And so that was I mean,
if there's any thread throughout my story, it's the goodness and grace of God to
meet me. where I was and to help me have grace for myself because I was able to
see myself maybe more fully the way God saw me. I want to pause there because you
already alluded to this, and I think you even use the word religious trauma in the
book. God had been used in a toxic manner through your mom,
whether explicitly through actions.
What was different? What was different about this group? How did God show up in a
different way that helped you, whether it was conscious? I think these things happen
in our bodies before they happen in our minds. We just feel something different. But
tell me how that felt different to you than what you had experienced before, even
if some of the same words were being used. You know, I think maybe it was a
maturity thing. Maybe it was a desperation thing. I think coming out of the
engagement, I very much had the whole, that's a whole other story. But I had had
this moment when I was making that decision where I was like, God, if you will
help me figure out how to get out of this, I will quit messing around and turn my
life over to you. I mean, it was kind of one of those desperate plea bargains that
you make, you know?
I really started a spiritual journey after that of trying to figure out what that
was going to look like. So I felt like walking into this group who I think it's
because it was people my age. It was led by college kids. So it was like people
who were in the same phase of life. Everybody was very honest and very vulnerable
and very real. And so it all felt sincere. And I think it's not that I when I
look back to my childhood church. I don't know that they didn't talk about grace. I
did not hear grace. And maybe that's because I had so much self -condemnation going
on that I just couldn't hear it. But I was met with such grace there. And I was
met with such love there. And so it felt like for the first sense of, I saw Jesus
as, I don't care what you've done. I don't care what you've become. You know, what
you've become, just come to me. And so that was the first time I had ever felt
that in that setting. So. And how did that create meaningful change in your life?
And maybe that leads to the third pillar meeting, meeting your now husband. But how
did that? Yeah. It I mean, it just it freed me up. I mean, all of a sudden,
you know, and it was still I mean, I'm still entangled with my mom. So there's
still you've still got that dynamic. So it's not like this, but it just I helped.
it helped me to see myself with more grace it helped me to see myself as somebody
who was i think there's such a difference of when you're walking in the spirit as
opposed to just trying to blindly figure out stuff on your own like it gave me a
level of kind of some wisdom and discernment about different relationships in my life
that i hadn't had before I think I surrounded myself with healthy people who
encouraged me and who called out the good things in me and made me realize that,
you know, your girlfriends aren't your competition and you can operate as a healthy
and whole person. So I just I think when Jesus starts to heal those places in you,
it affects every part of your life because all of a sudden I was making good
decisions again because I had the discernment to make those good decisions.
We kind of bumble along and we bump up against these pockets of goodness. And we
don't even really know yet how to put all the pieces together of what was broken
or what might still be broken. But we're just drawn. It kind of brings tears to my
eyes. We're just drawn to there's good here. And our souls kind of, you know,
go in that direction. And then there's more. And then there's more. And then maybe
at a certain point we start to put pieces together. But that's kind of what I hear
you saying, just the goodness of God. Just showing up and, and something in your
responding. Yeah. Yeah. And it was just, I think it was the grace of realizing I
was never going to be good enough and I didn't have to be perfect enough. And it
wasn't about that because I had lived so much of my life in that just. self -hatred
of if I could just do this if I could just act right if I could just behave in
a certain way and so all of a sudden the grace to be like no I just accept you
however you are just it's you know it's I mean it's it's biblical I mean the truth
set me free and so that changed the trajectory of my life and that's when I was
22 years old it's like God is we talk about God as a good father but when there's
that mother wound God is also a good mother
That grace of you're just gorgeous the way you are. You're just beautiful the way
you are. It's like, oh, that's what I've always needed. I just didn't have it.
Yeah, yeah. And it heals something in you. You know, I think it's I just read
something the other day that said that we look at the word salvation as salvation,
but salvation also means healing. And I'm like, that is isn't that what Jesus does
to us our whole lives is he heals the things that are broken because there are
going to be things in this world that are going to break us. Yeah. So then you
meet the guy who is your now husband. Is that right? Yeah. Tell us a little bit
about how that relationship, and right, this is right out of, you know, so the
therapist in me reading the book is like, this is attachment 101, right? We have
the attachment wounds. And then, and I mean, I'm literally like tracking it, like we
have the attachment wounds and then a friend comes in, right? There's an attachment
and then God comes in as this reparenting figure. And then we meet often our
significant other, which can be a huge. healing relationship for better and worse for
these old wounds and so it sounds like that was your experience again tell us a
little bit about how that that played out I you know when I met Perry it's we met
and we first started hanging out as just friends and I think God was so kind in
that because I had had such a um kind of skewed view of men um and just didn't
view them as like I never saw relationships. This can actually be a friendship. This
can actually be like, we just enjoy being together and not me trying to prove
something or to earn love or whatever.
Perry came in and was just, um, just the kindest, um, so fun,
you know, just amazing, um, man. And we just got to be good friends. And so there
was something in that too, where I was able to kind of, because we were just
friends at first, um, I kind of told him my whole story worth warts and all, I
wasn't trying to put, put on a face or be dateable because I didn't care at that
point. So, um, he just got the real story and so i told him a lot about my
childhood and the way i had grown up my mom had um i write about this more in
the book but my mom had really caused me to vilify my dad and my stepmom yeah um
and had painted them as the you know kind of the the malevolent characters in this
whole story. And so that's the viewpoint that I gave to Perry is because that's
what I had always been taught to believe. And then it was interesting because then
when he met them both, we got to the point in our relationship where we were
serious enough where he met my mom and then he met my dad and my stepmom. And he
was the first person to say to me because and now I see it because he's such a
his discernment is spot on like that. He just said, hey, I don't think the story
you've always been told is the right story.
Just, and it, you know, I tell that. It literally breaks tears to my eyes.
I don't, it's just the power of a witness. Yes. Yes. Someone to witness the reality
of your life. that's it. And I think even, you know, even the story of writing
this book and having people like you who, you know, you, you counsel people for a
living, even as I wrote it, I think there's so many things that are so entrenched
in you as normal that I was like, are people going to read this and be like, what
is she whining about? This isn't as bad as she thought, or this isn't, this is a
lot of drama over nothing. And so it's so validating to have somebody say,
yes. you aren't crazy this is this was not right this was not healthy and that's
and when perry said that to me he confirmed what had always been running through my
head where i was like it just doesn't add up because i knew who my dad was and
so The fact that she always wanted to make him into this bad guy, she wanted to
paint him as this man who had abandoned his family and left us. But I was like,
but he calls us every single night to check in. This is not it doesn't add up,
you know. So Perry saying that to me then freed me up.
At that point, I was 23, 24. And at that point. it freed me up for the first
time to have a conversation with my dad. And I'd always been scared to ask the
hard questions. And my dad had always been gracious enough that he was not going
to, he just let it ride. I mean, he wasn't going to put me in that position,
which now as a parent and an adult, I have so much respect for because that's a
lot of restraint to not want to defend yourself. He did the opposite of what your
mom did. He didn't throw her under the bus. And in fact, at that moment, you
learned that she had been lying. Very deceptive about the whole.
What's interesting to me, again, is your body knew. Your body knew that your dad
was safe. But you're being told this narrative. And how can a child make sense of
that? You cannot. That's it. no and if you argue against it if i ever questioned
anything there was so much rage from my mom that you learn you just go with it
like you you don't anger it because i would have to pay the the cost of that yeah
and and i lived under her roof and her rules and she had so much control you know
over my life that I just went along with it, but I knew. And so, you know,
when I had that conversation with my dad and he was able to kind of say, okay,
now I'll tell you, this is how this all really played out. It was, it was
astonishing. I mean, it was, it was life changing. Oh, I, I, yeah, it's a, and so
how from there. Tell us a little bit about how then, the more information you get,
the more truth you get. Your own life, I imagine, is your first priority. You're
starting to live your own new life in a new way. How did your relationship with
your mom evolve? You know, it was when I first got married, I felt like,
and I dreaded my wedding for, you know. all the reasons that I write about in the
book, because it was absolutely as bad as I thought she was going to make it. She
lived up to all of my worst case scenarios. So, but we got past that.
And then, you know, I finally had what I had always longed for was this is my own
family. This is my own fresh start. Like I'm not bound to her anymore. And she
doesn't have control over me. And so there was able to be some distance there. By
this point, she had remarried. She was like, in Oklahoma, so she was about eight
hours away. And so there was some freedom there, but I just started to realize that
every time the phone rang and it was her, I could feel everything in me. tense up.
And it was the same feeling of always waiting for the other shoe to drop. I never
knew when she was going to call and rage about something or tell me that I hadn't
done something or blame something on me or drop a bomb on me. I mean, I talk in
the book about, I mean, she dropped a major emotional bomb on me. I found out that
I had an older half sister that I didn't know I had. She dropped that on me in
my first couple of years of marriage and she had decided to go find this long lost
daughter. So there was just there was always a stirring up. And so the the longer
I was married, the more I was like, I just want distance from this. I don't want
to have to deal with this constant drama and toxic behavior in these words.
And I also now had a husband who was able to say, hey, this is not healthy like
this. Yeah, you should not feel this way. This is not normal. Yeah. So and and so,
Melanie, then you have. Girls of Your Own. You have one daughter. Is that right?
One daughter. One daughter. Okay. You have your own daughter. And the book,
which I think is really cool, is a little bit about the parallels of then learning.
Like you said, that was sort of your moment of awareness was that your daughter
started dealing with mean girls. And that was another breakthrough moment for you.
And I want the listener to hear it again. That's why I think the book is such a
valuable. the storytelling it shows how this is all healing is such a journey it's
all these different moments it doesn't happen all at once
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So you do, at a certain point, decide to cut off contact with her. Can you tell
us a little bit about that decision? And I want to frame that because, as you
know, I'm sure this is such a sensitive issue right now in the media. Yes.
It's getting a lot of attention. I think there's a reason that Lindsay Gibson's
book, Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, has been a New York Times
bestseller for, you know, there's a lot of interest in it. And then the no contact
conversation has got a lot of interest. And I want to say for the listener, this
is complicated. There are, it is so sensitive and there are not easy answers to
this question for anybody. If you are someone who has had to cut off contact as I
want you to talk to us about, it is, it is. a hard decision to arrive at.
And it is necessary if one arrives at that. That's not to say there are some
people who arrive at that and it's not exactly for the right reasons. That can also
happen. But for those for whom it is a real necessity, it is so deeply necessary
for healing and so sensitive in a culture, especially in Christian culture,
that doesn't always understand that. And I also want to say on the other side,
talking the best of you about the spectrum of toxicity, there are a lot of
situations where we can also find ways to reduce contact and establish boundaries.
And that might work for many people too. So there's no one size fit all for this.
But with that kind of larger contextualization for my listeners who I know are
coming at this from a lot of different angles. I also know I have parents listening
who are hurting from adult children, you know, suddenly setting boundaries with them
in ways that are confusing, right? So there's a reason this is so fraught. It's so
sensitive. It's so tender. With all of that being said, and I love how you speak
to this, will you share with us your story of realizing this is what I need to do
for my own healing, for my own daughter, for my own family, my own marriage, my
own health? Yeah, I'm so glad you framed it that way, because I think that's the
first thing is I would say to somebody is and I've had so many people that have
contacted me and I'm like, this is this is not a decision you make after one
heated conversation. This isn't a decision you make because maybe your political views
are different. This is a this is a deep emotional thing because I don't think it's.
at all what God intended for the parent child relationship to be in healthy context.
So for me, when I had my daughter, Caroline, I was 32 years old.
I talk about this at the beginning of the book, but it was a light bulb moment
for me when I held her, you know, the first or second night I had her home for
the hospital. And I just thought about, I was so overcome with love. You know,
you're just a hormonal, emotional, tired mess. And I just, in that moment, I thought
my mom never loved me like I love this baby. Like I just knew it. Like it was
like a puzzle piece finally like clicked. where I thought, because I was like, I
would sacrifice anything for this baby. I would do anything for her. And so that
was a big light bulb thing. The other thing about my mom that I will say is, as
the years went on, her behavior got gradually more and more chaotic. There again,
this was, by this point, we're probably, you know, Caroline was born in 2003. So
she, at this point, was older. So there had been probably almost 30 years of
prescription drug abuse. I mean, I talk about this some in the book. I think she
was self -medicating because she was bipolar. I think she had, you know, now that
I've read more, I think she even had like a borderline personality disorder. So this
wasn't just we don't agree on the same things. I mean, she was toxic.
She continually found ways to sabotage situations.
One of the things I write about in the book, I had started a blog that was the
beginning of my writing journey. And I wrote a post that was just a happy birthday
tribute to my dad. And my mom came on as an anonymous commenter,
but I knew it was her and left like three or four just vile, hate -filled comments
on that post. And at that point, Caroline was probably about three or four. And I
remember at that point, I wrote a long letter to her. Because I was like,
I'm going to cut off contact. I'm going to, I'm going to be done. And I wrote
this long letter and I just felt something in me. I just couldn't do it. Like I
just wasn't ready. And part of that process for me was, um, as I prayed about it,
as I asked God to give me wisdom and how to handle it. I knew that when I, when,
and if I made that decision, it couldn't be out of bitterness. It couldn't be out
of anger. It couldn't be out of unforgiveness. If it was, then I was going to
perpetuate the same cycle I was trying to break. Like it had to be out of a heart
that said, I forgive you and I love you because you're my mom, but I can't be a
part of this anymore. And, you know, when Caroline was six. And I and,
you know, Perry and I had these constant conversations because there also became this
thing of now I'm not just protecting myself. I'm protecting Caroline. And I thought,
what lies was she going to tell Caroline? What was she going to do to her? And
all of a sudden that carries a whole different weight than myself. A hundred
percent. You're that's a really good point. What just just before what was your
contact like with her up to that point? It was I mean,
we would talk on the phone every now and then, you know, we would we would have
conversations. You know, some would be good, some would be bad. That's what was so
hard about it. Because we would have these moments where I would be like, we're
good. We're in a great place. This feels really good. And then she would call two
weeks later. And she was infamous for, and my sister and I both agree, there's
still this phrase where she's like, remember when you said, and she would come back
and has totally twisted something. You describe that in the book. It's just a
dagger. It's just a dagger. Yeah. Thought was safe, then suddenly becomes a weapon.
Yeah. And I'm like, what? I don't even remember. That's that wasn't my intent.
That's not what I was trying to say. And all of a sudden I was defending myself
for something that I never. said or intended, but she would twist it and turn it.
And so there were different things like that. And then there was a moment that she
had offered me and I tell the story in the book, but she had offered me money to
go on this trip that I really wanted to go on. And this was, you know, my husband
and I, we were, you know, we were just starting off our new businesses. We had a
young child. We did not have the financial means. So she offered this money. Perry
said to me, he was like, I'm not going to tell you that you can't take that
money. He said, but you have to. think about what that's going to cost if you do.
And I knew he was right. You know, it's one of those things where you're like,
dang, why did you have to be right? That's so disappointing.
I wanted to do this. But when I called her to tell her, thank you so much.
And I dreaded that conversation because I knew in the back of my mind that that
was about her trying to regain some control. And so I was like, thank you so much.
I really appreciate it. I just don't think this is a good time for me to do this
trip. And at that point, she told me, she said, you have caused me more hurt than
anything in my life. You're a continual disappointment to me. And it was just, you
know, another.
And then a couple of months later, I was on a trip with my daughter. It was
supposed to be a fun trip. My mom called. She left me an awful voicemail message
because I didn't pick up the phone. And she basically ended. And this is after, I
mean, I'd been praying for years about, God, I don't know what to do. Show me what
to do. Let me know when and if I can walk away and still honor you because all
of that was so important to me. But she left a message and she ended it with,
if this is the end of our relationship, then so be it. And it just, when I heard
it, it was like, that's my door. Like, that's the door I've been looking for.
Okay. Yeah. I will honor your desire. Yeah.
Because I just, there again, because from the lens of being a mother, I thought I
would never say to my child. If this is the end of our relationship, then so be
it. And I thought for her to be able to say that just I was like, OK.
And so that really gave me the freedom. And what I will also say to anybody who
is thinking about that or debating that or struggling with that, you think that
that's going to feel amazing or it's going to feel really freeing or that that's
going to be the end of having to deal with it. And it's not. It just changes it.
But it never feels good to say, I don't speak to my mom. I mean,
that never feels, you continue to wrestle with that. And I continued for,
I mean, she lived 14 years after that decision and we did not speak again until
the last two weeks of her life. And I continued to pray about that decision.
all the time about God, if I'm supposed to reopen the store, if I'm supposed to go
back in, if I'm supposed to let her back into my life, I will do that. I just
need it to be really clear. And I do feel like God was really faithful to always
let me know that I was still on the right path. And part of that was my sister,
I have a younger sister, she maintained contact with my mom. And what my mom would
always say to my sister was, I can't think of one thing I've done that. would
cause Melanie to do this well and you know as a mom you I can sit right here and
go I can think of a million things I've done already so just the sheer you know
where I was like wow there's no ownership of I did this and I thought there's no
change there's no change and I kept thinking if at some point there was some change
and she was the hardest thing because you would hope for a spiritual change but she
had always been in church she was in bible studies she was in all these things so
I was like so where where is the change going to come from yeah um and there
again there was the mental illness component there was the drug component there were
a lot of things going on there so were you and your sister able to navigate that
making different decisions through that we were um it was it's been easier our
relationship's been easier obviously since my mom passed away yeah um but my sister
will and she's very gracious to recognize You know, and I think this happens a lot,
especially as I've read things about like borderline personality disorder. I think one
of the things they do is they pit their children against each other. Yeah. And so
one of the one of the things my mom did is my sister, Amy, was always the good
one. I would imagine. Yeah. And I was the bad one. And so she catered to Amy.
She really but Amy knew there was always an awareness of because she was so
volatile. So Amy experienced a lot of that, too. Yeah. She wasn't in denial. You
know, it's the reason I respected my decision. Yeah, because it's one of those
family roles that there's a golden child, usually a scapegoat often. It sounds like
you were more in the and that is it isn't. It's not healthy to be a golden child
either. That has its own set of issues. And often adult siblings do navigate the
boundaries differently. And it is warranted. But I'm grateful that there was an
ability to respect. the different boundaries. And that's just what's so toxic. And I
love, I know we're running up on time. Thank you for going along with me. I want
to honor your time. But this is just so the heart of what we do here on the
podcast. But it's why, and I love that you said this, and I want to highlight it,
that this isn't God's design. And that's why, but that was never your fault. You
were a casualty. in this toxic situation. So it was never your responsibility to
heal it, to improve it, to make pretend like it was okay. It was your
responsibility to tell the truth and to heal your own soul. And I love that you
said that it came to a point where it wasn't about retaliation. It wasn't about
revenge. It wasn't a shallow like. this is the best day of my life because I'm
free. It was, I'm going to tell the truth. And the truth is that I have to,
this isn't an actual mom in the way that God designed that role.
It is hurting me. It could hurt my daughter. And that is just, these are the cards
I was dealt. And I just, I really, I just appreciate your telling it,
your story. beautifully and honestly um it's it's a hard story i love that you said
it isn't there's still pain they're still healing yeah you're still rewiring your own
nervous system right for safety and health And I think that's what that's one of
the things you said that I so appreciate. And I'm learning because I think when I
started writing this book, I was writing it from this standpoint of like, oh, I am
healed. Like this story is this story. This whole thing is closed. My mom has
passed away. This chapter has ended. And as I started writing the book, all of a
sudden I was like. I think I have to go to therapy and talk about this. I mean,
all of a sudden I was like, I'm not as okay as I thought I was. And so I do
think healing is a continuous process that we do throughout our lives. As we grow
and know more, you start to realize other places where maybe you're not as healed
as you thought you were. A hundred percent. And that is our work that we do have
control over. We can't change this other person, but we can. um,
continue to lean into that. So I, there's so much more we could go into about
parenting and we'll have to have a part two. Um, but, uh,
tell, tell my listeners just who will, I know, want more of you and your wisdom,
where can they find you and your work? I know you've got a podcast and I do. So
I have a podcast called the big boo cast. Um, it is, as my dad calls it, it's a
podcast about nothing. It's just, I do it with my friend, Sophie. We talk about
hair, makeup, life. All the things. You can find me on Instagram is where I
typically post, you know, just updates and different things like that. And then I
just started a sub stack that I'm writing on a couple of times a week. And so you
can also find my writing on sub stack where I just share, you know, everything from
here's what I cook last night to here is what God is currently doing in my life.
And then here be dragons is available everywhere books are sold. The paperback just
came out and it includes they had that my publisher had. my daughter write an
afterword for it, kind of telling some of her side of the story. So I just,
I highly recommend that just because it, it made me weep. And just if you're
wondering if doing the work pays off in your own children, I will say that that
afterword made me. thinks this has all been worth it. I just, it's beautiful. I
just put a post up on social media, I don't know, last week or something, I said,
you know, healing, the healing of one person can change a generation. Yeah. And you
are, you're living evidence of that. It's all the grace of God, you know,
and I think it's, and what I would tell anybody is, I think God is so faithful to
give you the strength that you need to do the hard thing. And so, and it is the
hard thing. But I think, you know, you start by trying to set boundaries and,
and see if that, works. And, you know, then you just trust that God's going to
give you the wisdom to know the path that you need to walk with those difficult
relationships. Yeah, we'll link to lots of resources. There's some great thankfully
now we do have more resources out there about how to un -enmesh and disentangle and
find that kind of healthy, differentiated place that we're trying to raise our own.
I'll just say one last thing. I'm thinking about raising young adult women, right?
And I mean, I think the The best, most powerful example of is when my young adult
daughter can say, question me or say, why did you do this? Or why did this happen?
And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I guess there's enough safety that there's actually an
ongoing conversation because it sure isn't because I was perfect. That's right.
You know, and so there's so much humility in this whole dynamic.
mothers and daughters and daughters and mothers and yet just some necessary and
important naming and truth telling that we all need to be doing. So I'm so grateful
for your voice in this. Thank you. Well, I've loved talking to you today. So thank
you so much for having me. I'm so thankful for your voice. I mean, for giving
words to so many things that we're all trying to process. Oh, thank you. Thank you
for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much
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your God -given self.
Have you ever wondered if there’s something spiritual happening beneath what you’re carrying?
You’re doing the work.
You’re praying.
You’re going to therapy.
You’re trying to take responsibility.
And still… something feels off.
In this episode, Dr. Alison sits down with Theologian Joel Muddamalle to explore spiritual warfare — not through fear or sensationalism, but through clarity and discernment.
Together, they examine:
- How the enemy works through systems, structures, and misaligned desires
- The difference between personal responsibility and spiritual opposition
- Why obsession with darkness is just as unhelpful as dismissing it
- How to stay grounded in Christ’s victory rather than panic
This conversation reframes spiritual warfare as something far more ordinary — and far more hopeful — than we often imagine.
Not demon hunting.
Not blame shifting.
But cultivating wholeness.
Because the center of the Christian story is not darkness.
It’s restoration.
If you’ve ever felt confused about this topic — or unsure how to integrate faith, mental health, and spiritual reality — this episode offers grounded wisdom for everyday life.
More Resources:
Follow Dr. Alison on Instagram @dralisoncook
Join the 80,000+ soul menders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices here.
Learn more about Joel Muddamalle’s work.
Order The Unseen Battle.
If you liked this episode, then you’ll love:
Episode 144: Healing the Soul Through Encounters with Jesus Featuring John Eldredge
Episode 122: Navigating Anxiety, Therapy, and Spiritual Formation—Balancing Mental, Emotional, & Spiritual Health with John Mark Comer
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
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Transcript:
I actually want us to frame spiritual warfare within the context of household
rebellion, of household conflict, of dysfunction, and relationship challenges.
Enemy loves to work in systems and structures, loves to work through neutral things
that can become ultimate things in order to misalign your affections.
Hey everyone. And welcome back to this week's deep dive episode of the Best of You
podcast. I'm so glad you're here with me this week and every week. I love hearing
from you. I love getting your feedback. Today's episode came directly out of so many
questions I've heard from so many of you these past few years. Have you ever
wondered whether there's something spiritual going on underneath what you're carrying?
Like you're doing the work. You're praying, you're trying to take responsibility for
your choices, you're trying to regulate your nervous system, get enough sleep, have
the hard conversation, set boundaries, go to therapy. Maybe you're doing all the
right things and still something feels off. Maybe it's anxiety that spikes out of
nowhere. Maybe it's a pull toward isolation, like you just want to disappear. Maybe
it's discouragement that doesn't match the moment. Maybe it's a kind of internal fog
or oppression that makes it hard to access hope. And then you wonder, is this just
me? Is this my brain? Is this my body? Or is something else happening here?
Today, we're going to talk about something that can get sensationalized really fast
or sometimes dismissed. entirely. And that's spiritual warfare, what my guest today
calls the unseen battle. And I want to say this up front. My goal in this
conversation is not to make you afraid and it's not to make us hyper -focus on
darkness. That has never been my goal. If anything, I err toward the other extreme.
Because for many people, spiritual warfare has been taught in ways that create panic,
superstition, and shame. And for others, it's been dismissed so thoroughly that you
have no framework for naming the very real reality. of evil, whether it's relational,
whether it's systemic, whether it's spiritual and how it impacts our lives. So what
I'm aiming for today is clarity, groundedness, and discernment. We're not after demon
hunting, you know, where everything is a demon. We're not after this other extreme
that nothing is spiritual, right? We're looking for a wise middle. ground.
Together, we're going to approach some of the following questions. When is it helpful
to consider spiritual warfare as part of what you are facing? And when is it not
helpful? When does spiritual warfare language become a way to bypass grief or bypass
accountability or even bypass mental health care or even to blame shift like the
devil made me do it instead of owning our choices and doing the work that is ours
to do? And we're going to talk about practices that are simple. and biblical,
nothing weird, nothing performative, but ways to engage spiritual resilience that
actually help you on a Tuesday afternoon when your brain is spiraling and your heart
feels tired. One of the things I hope you'll hear throughout this conversation is
this. The center of the Christian story is not darkness. It's Jesus.
It's not fear. It's not obsession. It's not hype. It's the steady reality of
Christ's victory over death and the invitation to live from that place with wisdom
and courage. Now, I am so thrilled to introduce you to my guest today. It's Joel
Muddle Molly. He's a theologian, a Bible teacher, and the author of a new book
called The Unseen Battle, Spiritual Warfare, The Three Rebellions, and Christ's Victory
Over Dark Powers. Joel serves as the director of theology and research at Proverbs
31 Ministries, and he's also the theology in residence for Haven Place Ministries.
You can find him online. He's always giving really thoughtful and careful biblical
scholarship, and he helps Christians make sense of big theological questions in a way
that's accessible. and grounded. In The Unseen Battle, Joel offers a framework for
understanding spiritual warfare that's rooted in Scripture, tracing themes through
Genesis, Deuteronomy, and into the New Testament, while also cutting through the noise
of modern sensationalism. He talks about the spiritual story behind fragmentation and
division and why the Spirit of God relentlessly pursues. connection. And that piece
matters to me deeply because as you know, if you've been here for a while, so much
of my own work is about healing disconnection. Disconnection from ourselves,
disconnection from God, and disconnection from each other. And if there's an unseen
battle at all, one of the most consistent themes you'll see is that the forces of
darkness want to isolate you while God moves toward us in love through truth,
through connection, and through a steady invitation back into wholeness. So today,
we're going to explore spiritual warfare in a way that's biblical, responsible, and
emotionally honest. And it's also really practical. So if you've ever felt confused
about this topic, if you've ever been harmed by the way it was taught, if you've
ever wondered whether you're fighting the right battle, if you're simply trying to
make sense of evil and suffering without losing your grounding, this conversation has
something for you. I'm so thrilled to bring you my conversation with Joel Matamali.
I was just so thrilled that you wrote about this topic because A, you're so
biblically literate and so scholarly and yet so accessible.
So that's already hard. And then again, and you set the book up with the opening
quote with exactly what I think so many of us who want to talk about this topic
with what our concern is. And I want to read it to anchor our conversation because
it's a quote from C .S. Lewis. I think it's from the Screwtape Letters. Is that
right? It is. Yes. And it's exactly, I think, why this can be, it's such an
important topic to tackle, but why it can be hard because not that many people are
doing it well. So here's what Lewis says. There are two equal and opposite errors
into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their
existence. The other is to believe and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest
in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors. And I love this.
This is so classic Lewis. And hell, a materialist or a magician with the same
delight. Yeah. I mean, that's such a perfect. And then your book is really trying
to thread that needle. Yeah. Absolutely. It really is kind of, and what Lewis was
observing, I think we're seeing in full kind of fruition today, you know? And so
like, for me, it's like, wait a minute, there is at times this obsessive tendency
to be so consumed by the things of the supernatural realm and kind of hidden
knowledge and all of that. And then at other times, it's almost like, hey,
we're super great. with everything to do with the cosmic Christ, but we don't want
anything else beyond that. Any other parts of the mystery and the spiritual reality
of the Christian life is almost, the big technical term is demythologized. We want
to demythologize that, and yet I think we find ourselves in a place of
vulnerability, and that vulnerability is what is so terrifying, and the enemy loves.
absolutely loves both our obsession and our neglect. And so really, Allison, this
book was just kind of something that I felt it's a byproduct of my PhD
dissertation. So I spent, you know, six years really studying and researching, but
really a deep conviction that this is a topic that matters. It shouldn't be held
exclusively for the ivory towers of academia. This is something that matters for the
mom who is in the carpool. you know, um, for the dad who's trying to make sense
of, um, you know, I'm, I'm, this is my life. Like I've got teenage sons, you know,
and we're trying to navigate so much, uh, of just their life and their culture and
the music and, um, the things that, you know, they are drawn to and yet asking
this question. is this actually going to be good for your soul over the long haul?
It might be immediately pleasant for you, but if it's destructive over the long
haul, then we want to be aware of that. And so this book was kind of aimed at
both of those things, really to retrieve awareness and a healthy perspective of the
reality of a cosmic war that we're all a part of. So, Joel,
you're kind of touching on... That's immediately what I want to start off with. I
want to get in later in the episode into some practical ways we can delineate.
Because in my work, and I know you're very familiar with this, with your own work
on the Therapy and Theology podcast and in other veins, but sort of what's my
responsibility versus what's spiritual warfare? So we're going to get into that for
the listener. Because I think sometimes there's both two things going on.
I know that in my work as a therapist, especially in really traumatized populations
where there's just been incredible evil that is very overt,
right? That's where it's like you have to name something as evil. There's no
pretending, right? And I think that's something that some of my listeners,
a lot of the therapists who are listening, a lot of folks in ministry, like, no,
we... know, there's no kind of sugarcoating some of these realities,
right? And there is also a process of healing that requires human agency and human
choices that I have to make, right? It wasn't my fault, but it is now my
responsibility. That's kind of the needle I want to thread. But before we get into
those practicalities, what do you mean by spiritual warfare and what do you not
mean? Yeah, that's such a great question. I kind of am a story guy. So in my area
of kind of theological study, it's a study called biblical theology. And so I really
care deeply about the Old Testament and the New Testament, the relationship to each
other. And so I think it's a real tragedy when it's like, let's skip past the Old
Testament passages. Let's just get to the red letters of Jesus. And then it's like,
wait a minute, we do know that Jesus is actually reliving the story of Israel. of
the Old Testament throughout the, I mean, that's the whole point of the Gospels is
that Jesus is faithful in all the ways that Israel is faithless. And so like in
this vein of biblical theology, I think I want to start with what is the story of
Scripture? You know, like what is that kind of one sentence? And this is a quote
from Jim Cress, who we both know and, you know, are friends with. And Jim has this
idea that Something can be simplistic, but far from, something can be simple, but
far from simplistic. So this is a simple statement, but it's far from simplistic.
And so the story of scripture is simply about a good father who happens to be the
cosmic king of heaven and earth, who's determined to have his family back together.
A good dad, who's the king of heaven and earth. who's determined to have his family
back together. And then this is all the parts that are far from simplistic or far
from simple. It's like, okay, we've got a father who's also like a royal king of
the cosmos. And then how did the family get divided? Like how did the family first
get lost and separate from each other? And so in that, I actually want us to frame
spiritual warfare within the context of... rebellion, of household conflict,
of dysfunction, and relationship challenges. And so what we find throughout Scripture,
really, I think, is that spiritual warfare is presented in kind of three categories.
And this gets into a little bit of nerdy Greek and Hebrew stuff, but the term for
household in the Old Testament is bayith. And the term for it in the New Testament
is oikos. And Paul uses oikos terminology all the way throughout Ephesians to talk
about the household. And so this is Ephesians 2, 18 through 22. But both of these
words in the original languages have what's called three domains, kind of three
categories that they are working in. And it is one is a kingly idea that there's a
royal kingship and kingdom that's connected to it. Second is priestly.
It has to do with the temple. And third, the nuclear family. It has to do with
like moms and dads and children and extended family. Like in the West,
I think at times we can be a bit disconnected. from the concept of extended family.
I'm Indian. For us, the extended family is incredibly important. My first cousins,
I don't refer to them as first cousins. I refer to them as my siblings. They're my
younger brothers and my younger sisters. And that's kind of like the nuclear family
that we're thinking about. And what's so fascinating to me is that the enemy loves
to work in these three domains to create deception. in order to divide, which
ultimately leads us perfectly into a place of destruction. And oftentimes, it's self
-destruction. And so if you think about it, it's like our priestly vocation.
People who follow Jesus, what does it mean to be a church, you know, the part of
the church? And you think about it from a kingly standpoint, like our vocation and
responsibility on earth, you know, whether it be from a standpoint of what we do as
our jobs or how we engage with the community at large. And then from a nuclear
family standpoint, you know, like the amount of broken families, broken relationships,
deception, deceit, divorce, and we can go through all of it. These are all evidences
of a real enemy who's working in and through systems and structures to create chaos.
And my basic belief, Allison, is that the Bible has the most coherent answer to all
of these challenges that are present. Like there's a path not to avoid all of this,
but to get through it and really to recover wholeness. And you know this, the Greek
word therapio. It has in mind, and this is the word that's used of Jesus all
throughout the New Testament of his healing ministry. It has in mind recovering
wholeness. And what does it mean to be a whole human? I would categorize into kind
of three areas. It is your emotional well -being. It is your spiritual well -being
and it's your physical well -being. Your emotional, spiritual, and physical well -being.
And spiritual warfare often happens emotionally. It happens spiritually. That's right.
And it happens physically. And so that's why I think it's kind of important to have
a framework in kind of those categories to see how the enemy is kind of being
deceptive in those places. It flows throughout all of it.
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As someone who firmly knows there is a spiritual battle,
there's spiritual warfare. And also as someone who spends a lot of time trying to
help people find their own responsibility within their challenges. What wisdom do you
have for us in terms of figuring out how we discern what is spiritual warfare?
Maybe, you know, what is spiritual warfare? What isn't? And what is helpful to me?
Because sort of one extreme is the there's a devil hiding around every corner.
There's a devil hovering over my kids at my marriage. And to put all of our
attention on that. back to the C .S. Lewis quote, to kind of be looking for the
devils everywhere, which can lead to a sort of paranoia, which can lead to stuff I
don't have control over, right? That can be not helpful, which can also lead,
and we'll get into this, to an abdication of my own responsibility. Maybe some of
this is I'm not taking care of my body or I'm not doing what I need to do,
right? All the way to the other extreme, which we also see in the materialistic,
scientific of... I see in psychology and what prompted me to kind of blend just,
just to your point, you and I are two sides of the same coin. I left a. a
secular psychology program and added a joint PhD with psychology and religion because
I was like, this is not all just science. Like this is not just all changing your
thoughts and becoming a better robot. Like there's other stuff going on here,
right? Two things can be true. And so, but so the other extreme being like, it's
all just reductive. It's all just behavior modification. It's all just changing our
thoughts. It's changing our patterns. Like what's the healthy middle ground as people
of faith who, understand there's a spiritual realm and also are increasingly
understanding, and I know you share this with me, that there's a lot of our own
kind of what we're learning about the nervous system and learning about how we care
for our own souls and how we tend to our own lives and our own families that is
ours to focus on. Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%. You know,
I'm a bit obsessed. We can blame our dear friend Lisa Turkers for this. I'm a bit
obsessed with the Eden story. And really, you know, this is an interesting thing,
Allison. I think that our anthropology has to have a starting spot. So anthropology
comes with the Greek word anthropos, which just means humanity. And so it's like,
where do we get our understanding of humanity? And in some kind of Christian
religious traditions, Often I think functionally what ends up happening is our
anthropology starts with Genesis 3, which is the fall, right? And I actually don't
think this is the right place to start. In fact, we should start where the Bible
starts. And the Bible starts in Genesis 1 and 2. It starts with the ideal of
humanity. It starts with the vocation of our first parents, Adam and Eve, and how
they were supposed to work and function and live in this Edenic garden. And then
when we understand the ideal of humanity, we can actually rightfully make sense of
the tragedy of what happens with the fall. And so I kind of... a little bit from
traditional systematic theologians when they refer to the image of God being broken
at the fall. I don't believe that the image of God was broken at the fall. I'm
following a theological bioethicist, a guy named Dr. John Kilner, who wrote a great
book on this. And what Kilner kind of suggests, which I follow, is this idea
that... the fall, the image of God is not broken. Humanity is broken. And the image
of God is a gracious gift that is bestowed upon us. And that gift comes with a
status and a standard. So the status is irrevocable. If you're a human,
if you're born, you have the status of an image bearer of God. That status requires
a standard that we are to live up to. Now, because humanity is broken, we can no
longer live up to that standard, which is why it's necessary for Jesus to come, the
empowerment of the Holy Spirit. This is the story that we're kind of being told. So
when we go back to the Garden of Eden and we look at Adam and Eve, who are made
in the likeness and the image of God, those two Hebrew words, likeness and image,
are demut and shalem, and they're used throughout ancient Near Eastern literature to
refer to children of royalty, which I think is such a fascinating... indication that
prior to adam and eve ever doing anything they receive a gracious gift from the
lord which is the image of god as an indication that they are royal children of
the great king of heaven and earth now how do we determine what is our own agency
versus spiritual warfare and all this it all actually all goes back to the garden
of eden in this god gives adam and eve the boundaries it's like you know a word
that we love like hey you can do everything, all of this, you can eat of all the
fruit, this one fruit you must not eat. And then, by the way, you're to have
creativity. I don't know if we've ever really thought about the vocation of Adam and
Eve in Eden. They were to be creative. They're supposed to not just build a
monastic society with walls. They're supposed to go out and into the world, spreading
the image of God out. And in light of all of this, They were to be aware.
This is where discernment comes involved, especially with spiritual warfare. They're to
be aware of what was given to them in a holy vocation to accomplish,
but then also to understand what was not within their control, what was not given
to them. And spiritual warfare often comes in the place of compromised discernment.
It is a suggestion that we have to take for ourselves. because of a deep -rooted
distrust that maybe God won't provide for us, or maybe the world is not going to
work out the way that we want it to, and so now I have to lean into my own
power, my own ambition, my own ability, and I have to take for myself.
This gets theological. In Genesis 3, 6, and elsewhere,
you find a repeated pattern, and the pattern is this.
desire, and take. In Hebrew, every time you see the two phrases of see desire,
which can sometimes be synonymous as one, combined with the verb to take, it's
almost always negative. It's almost always negative. Adam and Eve, see of the fruit,
they desire of the fruit, and they take. of the fruit. In Genesis 6,
you've got this odd passage of the sons of God who I believe were angelic beings.
And in the book, you can go through the three rebellions and I give the footnotes
and kind of all the reasons for that. But you have these sons of God that see the
daughters of men. They desire these women and they take them for themselves.
This is what produces these giant beings called the Nephilim, which is kind of
necessitates the flood and all this other stuff. And by the way, exact same phrase
that's used of King David. David sees Bathsheba. He desires Bathsheba.
And so he takes her for himself. And so really spiritual warfare in this context is
about a lot of what is already. What are you seeing? What are you desiring? And in
what ways are you being tempted to take for yourself versus being aware of what God
has given to you or what you have agency over? What is your area of responsibility
that you are to steward? And yet you're being invited to kind of transgress
boundaries in order to take and secure something for yourself that actually was not
given to you in the first place. Okay. So that is such... Great.
Teaching and examples. Because even if we look at that Genesis 3 moment,
when Eve... So it sounds like to me there's at least two things going on, maybe
three, where between agency and the work of the spiritual realm.
So the serpent shows her something that she could take.
Yep. That's sort of what's around us. Or if we apply this to our families, right?
You talked about being a dad. You know your boys. There's all sorts of stuff out
there that's going to allure them to take. The agency is on the taking. We don't
get to say, I don't get to say what Eve did, essentially, which is the serpent
made me do it or the serpent. I mean, I'm saying a lot of things here, but when
I think, let's go to the Genesis 3 story. I've thought a lot about that in the
context of blame shifting. I actually have a devotional coming up on that in the
daily podcast for my listeners. We're going to talk about blame shifting in the
context of Genesis 3, which is Adam says, she made me do it.
She says, the serpent made me do it. God gives consequences to all three of them.
That's right. The serpent gets consequences. Eve gets consequences. Adam. So in a
sense, it's not that technically they were right. You know, Eve presented the option
to Adam, the serpent presented, but they were each responsible for their own choices.
David, same thing, right? He was obviously held accountable for his own choice there
in a very vivid way. And also there was stuff going on around him that was trying
to tempt him. Am I hearing you correctly? A hundred percent. Now let's go back to
the Genesis three because I think the agency piece is so important. Agency is both
about what you do and what of your own volition and kind of moral compass,
ethical understanding you refrain from doing. So I think sometimes we think about
agencies like I've got to do, I've got to do, what can I do? I actually also
think, and you're the psychologist, so you tell me if I'm wrong on this, but I
think that agency also has to do about exercising your ability,
your right to also withdraw and to say I won't participate in this action. 100%.
So here's where I think in Genesis 3 is so fascinating. There's a little detail. In
Genesis chapter 3, that I think is not a throwaway sentence, it says that it was
routine for Yahweh to walk with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening breeze.
So why the cool of the evening breeze? Because it's the end of the day. Now,
here's the thing. Adam and Eve have... stewardship responsibility there to work the
garden to keep the garden adam specifically we're told he's got a responsibility to
name the animals you know and i don't know about you allison like i am not a uh
walker for fun or a runner for no reason drives me crazy i just i play basketball
on tuesday nights and i can do that kind of running but the thought of just
running like for no like it just drives me crazy but my wife uh we've been here
for 16 years that girl she loves to walk for no reason she loves like that's just
her am, you know? So for 16, I've had to learn that I show my love to my wife
by just going on walks with her. Now, what's fascinating is when we go on a walk,
usually I have an idea of a destination. I'm like, we're going to do a couple laps
and be done because I honestly don't like going on walks. And typically we'll do
that and I'll look at her like, hey babe, are we done? And she'll look back at me
and she'll be like, no. And I'm confused and annoyed. I'm like, we've done what
we're supposed to do. We've done the two laps and we should be done. I'm like,
when are we done? And she'll be like, I don't know. And what's so fascinating about
that is that the aim and the ambition, for me, the goal of the walk is a
destination. But for her, the goal of the walk is not a destination. It's about the
quality of time and the relationship that's being developed from the starting point
to the end point. What's so fascinating about this idea of God walking in the cool
of the evening breeze with Adam and Eve is that that Hebrew word for walk, it has
no destination in mind. It is a leisurely walk. So now we're left wondering,
what would God do with his two children on a walk? Well,
what do you do with your friends on a walk? You talk. You process life. What was
interesting? What was creative? What was challenging? I think sometimes we think of
Eden as perfect. I don't think perfect is the right word for Eden. I know some
people are like, wait a minute, I've always thought about it. Perfection has in mind
completion. Eden is not complete. Eden is the perfect building blocks,
the material in order to get to completion. God sets them up for success, right? So
I always wonder here, when the serpent suggests to Eve and Adam,
who's right with her, hey, why don't you eat of the tree? What would have happened
if Eve exercised her agency, her wisdom, her discernment, her understanding and said,
You know what time it is? You feel that? Serpent, Nakash? It's the cool of the
evening breeze. Why don't we just wait around for God to come? We can ask him this
question. Right? What would have happened? I mean, the serpent's going to run for
its dang life. It's not going to stick around there. And yet this is part of
spiritual warfare. It's part of the deception. It is this sense that we can't be
patient. We can't wait. We've got to take. We've got to have it for ourselves. And
again, deeply rooted in that is distrust. And so when we're thinking about agency,
we're thinking about both. For me, what we do that we should do rightly, but also
what we with holy restraint withdraw from. And we say, like, actually, I'm not going
to participate in that because it's unbecoming of me. It actually diminishes my
dignity as an image bearer of God. Like, I don't want to participate in that. Yeah.
You know?
Yeah. I love that. I love that. I'm working on a project right now, an attachment.
And I love that idea, even with our kids. It's not that they have to go fight the
enemy in what you're saying there. It's almost like a... want to reconnect to what
is good. So I'm going to bow out to connect with my parent or with this healthy
thing that I know is bedrock. We don't always have to have in the moment the
perfect answer or the perfect resistance. It's just something in me, something in my
nervous system is saying, reconnect. before doing anything. And I love that image.
Let me go back to God because that's my source. I love what you're saying about
Eden. I know you've been deeply shaped by N .T. Wright, as I have, and I hear a
lot of that in kind of what he's saying with the new heavens. We will still be
working out our creativity, our vocation, our relationships. It will just be without
this contaminant. Is that... And that's kind of the essence of spiritual warfare is
that contaminant that is constantly trying to derail us. That's absolutely right.
I think it was N .T. Red who once said that sin is essentially undoing our humanity
in such a way that it is leading us into animalistic tendencies. Like sin wants us
to neglect, abdicate. our humanity in order to take up animalistic like desires.
I think this is what things like alcoholism, pornography, you know, even addiction to
things like the gym. Look, I don't know if you've ever thought about this. I've
always been so fascinated about like CrossFit culture and there's something good about
it. But then there's also this obsessiveness about it where I've had people like
they're like, man, I'm just so ugly or I'm so and I'm like. you got like a 12
pack. You're like, you're walking around with like 7 % body fat. Like this is wild
that, you know, and yet there is this. There is this self -perception that has been
deeply compromised because they don't see themselves as what God sees them. And they
think that if I can just achieve this particular look or whatever it might be,
then I can find fulfillment. All of this is spiritual warfare. It is to disconnect
you from the sufficiency of God. I like to talk about it in the context of an
exchange of dependency. It is to pursue self -dependency versus God -dependency. And to
be dependent on God does not abdicate your responsibility. It actually frames your
responsibility. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Yeah, like being dependent on God reminds us
of what we can do, what we can't do, right? It reminds us of what we ought to
do, what we should not do, you know? And back to like the spiritual warfare idea,
I think this is the obsessive nature of it. Sometimes people are like, oh, I gotta
be demon hunters now. We're looking for the demons across, right? Fascinating.
Throughout the New Testament, I mean, you have this one scene where Jesus tells his
disciples to kind of go out and to deal with the demonic reality. But this is very
much prior to the cross. And there's something else that's going on with that story.
After that, you never find any instance of any of the New Testament authors telling
us to be exorcists or to go out and be demon hunters or to go, right? Actually,
it's quite opposite. What the biblical passage and what Jesus himself says in the
Great Commission is, Go make disciples. Yeah. Go make disciples of all nations. Well,
why make disciples? To recover your humanity. To retrieve what it means to be
spiritually whole, emotionally whole, and physically whole. And guess what? When you
do that, you will absolutely encounter dark forces. Like,
you don't need to go after the dark force. This is Ephesians 6. Ephesians 6
presents us as passive participants of a divine action.
The Spirit of God strengthens us so that we might put on the full armor of God.
And to be able to withstand the fiery enemies, the fiery darts of the enemy.
Why? Because we advance the gospel. And as the gospel is advanced, the enemy is
going to absolutely fight back because the enemy hates the good news. Because the
good news is about the restoration of the nations back into the family of God. It
goes back to the household idea. Okay, this is so good. So a couple things I'm
hearing you say that I want to underscore. Number one, we don't have to go looking
for the spiritual warfare. It's everywhere. I mean, and even in, you're saying it in
a couple different ways, I think. Let me see, because the first thought when I was
thinking to myself, we don't have to go looking for it because literally we can
open up our Instagram app and find it. Literally, we can walk into, it's, we don't
have to fixate. And I know what you're saying about CrossFit. You could insert a
million other different things where anything that's pulling us to subtly replace our,
you know, as Augustine and Aquinas talked about, disordered loves, right? Even good
things, when they keep us from ordering our love first with God, are going to pull
us subtly. So it's there. We don't have to focus on it. And then I also...
I want to see if—I think you were kind of alluding to this, Joel, but I want to
see if I'm hearing you correctly. Our most important act of resistance is to align
ourselves with goodness, with truth, with the gospel, with, I think, I would argue
in my field as with healing, so -so, with the work of becoming whole.
Whole. That if I focus on that, sure, a byproduct of that will be, you know,
there will be some—
some members of the spiritual realm that won't be happy, but I am therefore then
aligning myself with God's goodness, God's truth, the spiritual armor. That's my best
and most fruitful act. In the book, you talk about... And I think this is what
we're getting at. You talk about focusing on Jesus's victory as the center versus an
obsession with darkness. And so I think that's some of what I'm hearing in you. The
practical thing we can do if we're worried about the spiritual realm is not to go
looking for it. It's to focus on what is good and focus on Jesus. Am I hearing
you correctly? And how do you talk about that? Yeah, absolutely. I would want to
also bring just some clarifications on what the enemy is and what the enemy isn't.
I think sometimes, you know, there's a famous poet, I think, who said, you know,
the... maybe it's a poet or it's Jim or Jim got this from a poet. I hate messing
up citations and footnotes, but it's from one of those people. The idea is like the
words we use build the worlds that we live in. I think it was a poet. The words
we use build the worlds that we live in. And so I think that we ought to care
deeply about the words that we use to kind of frame our reality. And so one of
the things that happens is we'll say stuff like, well, the enemy made me do it.
Yeah. The devil, like the devil did it or the, right. And I'm like, well, you
know, The enemy, dark forces, are not equivalent in like ontology,
in realness with God. God is the uncreated creator of all things. Everything starts
with God. God created it all. Dark spiritual beings that have gone into rebellion
are created beings, which means that the incommunicable attributes of God, these are
things like his omniscience. He knows all things, his omnipresence, he's in all
places, his omnipotence, he's all powerful, right? Those things are exclusive to God.
So we should not attribute those things to an enemy who is limited and finite.
Do they have deceptive powers? Absolutely. Can they work in spiritual ways?
Absolutely. But they are not on par with the Lord. And so in light of that, I
think we need to be aware of their schemes. They love to work in systems and
structures because they're all about mass -producing sin. They're all about scaling
sinful tendencies. This is Paul's language of the vices of the flesh,
right? And so, like, I think we ought to be serious about these things. I had a
conversation with somebody the other day. And we do these retreats called Haven Place
Retreats at Lisa's house. And they're like healing retreats. And Jim brings therapy.
I bring theology. Lisa brings such great biblical wisdom. And we're having this
conversation with somebody. And they talked about the transition between a single
glass of bourbon at night to becoming full -blown alcoholism.
And it started with a thought. And the thought was, I'm just taking the edge off
of it. It's a stressful day. Right. Like, like I deserve just a single glass of
bourbon until the single glass turned to multiple glasses, which turned into multiple
bottles, which turned into getting into credit card debt in order to get the
bottles, which then turned into full on lying about him, having bottles hidden in
different places, which ultimately led to a deal. I mean, you could go to go into
all these things and it's like, it was a singular thought. Right. And it was even
like, man, you know, is alcohol in and of itself bad, evil? No. Of course not.
But you can take anything that becomes an ultimate thing and that thing will become
an idolatrous thing. And so I think there's two parts to this. One, don't give the
enemy too much power. Don't give them too much ability. And also be very aware of
how the enemy loves to work. The enemy loves to work in systems and structures,
loves to work through neutral things that can become ultimate things in order to
misalign your affections. That's really helpful because I do think, I like that word
scale because I do think in our modern era, I'm sure this was true in different
eras of history, but it's always easiest to think of our own era. It does feel
like that scale word. There are things that almost feel like, man, I think about it
for our kids. I think about when I was growing up, The things that would tempt me
or entice me, they were bad, but there was almost an innocence to them compared to
what we see today. Even if you think about pornography, like you had to go buy a
magazine at a store. It's a little bit harder. There's some more barriers to entry.
It's harder to just get it mainlined into your system. Whereas today, it's just, and
it doesn't remove human. accountability and responsibility. We still have to, but boy,
I have so much compassion for folks. That's such a good way to put it,
that spiritual warfare at work, figuring out how to use systems to sort of make it
just super hard doesn't mean we're not still responsible. We still have to do our
part, but there's... There's a lot in what you're saying there of really, really all
the more needing to remember. First of all, God is ultimately powerful. These systems
will not overtake us. But yeah, they are potentially at the level at which maybe
let's use technology, for example, at the level at which it is scaling good in the
sense of cures for cancer, et cetera, et cetera. It's also scaling evil. Is that?
Yeah. So just a little vulnerable moment. I remember being,
gosh, how old was I? 11 or 12 and i used to ride a bike you know i'm at that
age now allison where they do those fun memes on instagram where it's like you're
this age and it's like blockbuster was around every corner or you told your parents
that you're going on a bike ride but you really like went to abandoned houses and
you probably did like 25 miles on your bike in a matter of four you know four
hours or whatever and it was like the good old days well i remember my kids get
so annoyed with me when i say stuff like that um i remember riding my bike to the
white hen pantry there's live in the chicagoland area there's a white hen pantry and
to your point i remember my first introduction to pornography was actually the family
member but after that it opened my eyes to the curiosity of this thing and i would
go to the white hen pantry and in the back corner they had the magazines but then
it would be like the you know the naughty ones or whatever the bad ones would be
hovered at the top kind of hidden but still there Right. And if you went back
there, you would have the owner of the white hand. If you were back there too far,
he would come. Hey, what are you guys doing? You know? And I remember just thinking
about that of like, there's something about the, even the moral fabric of our
society that recognized for an 11 year old to see that is inappropriate, not good.
That's at least like as a society, let's protect the innocence, you know, to now
it's like, man. none of that nothing like in fact intentional algorithms and ads
that are aimed in all of our spaces in order to compromise innocence of the least
of these you know the youngest in order to cultivate a mind to be prone to it,
you know? And so I think you're absolutely right about that. And again, there's
nothing new underneath the sun. This is why passages like Genesis 6, I think, are
really important. It's like, a lot of times it's like, man, how did evil spread
throughout the world? You know, what necessitated the flood? Well, there's a story in
Second Temple literature in a book called The Book of Enoch. And it's not canon.
It's not like you shouldn't view it that way. But it tells the background story of
the Genesis 6 verses 1 through 4 kind of story. And in it, angelic beings give
wisdom and knowledge. And it's kind of fascinating. Part of it is the cutting of
plants. The Greek word is pharmakeia, which is where we get pharmaceutical from
today. But what's interesting about it is, and you mentioned this already, you can
have the cutting of plants as a really good thing. It can heal wounds. It can be
disinfectant, right? But you can also use the cutting of plants in order to create
ayahuasca, DMT, some inebriative kind of elements in order to compromise your mind.
to intoxicate you, to actually move you away from agency, to make you lose your own
self -agency. And then another one is metallurgy. You know, of all the things that
are taught around this time period, the one thing that I think is fascinating is
that swords have a singular purpose, to kill. Swords have a singular purpose.
And so look at the mass kind of scaling of sin. It's like,
hey, you can take good things or neutral things and you can leverage them in ways
that are 100 % self -destructive. And this is the age -old strategy of the enemy,
but we just are seeing it now in really mass market movements. I want to ask a
practical question to close, but I have to ask you this question. And it's a little
bit of a Pandora's box right here at the end to shift gears a little bit. How do
you see, because I get this question a lot. So I'm going to ask you, I'm going to
take this opportunity. How do you see, we've talked a lot about. spiritual warfare
in the context of things that are like you're saying there there's some good but
also real opportunity for evil i don't think there's any good in pornography but but
right there's yeah there's um but they're that's acting on it pornography is a
perversion of the of the good right right it's a perversion of it so it's like
when did we get to like i can see a woman and say, oh, she's beautiful and move
on to then seeing a woman and saying, oh, that's an object for me to, right? Or
like, and I think that's like, it's a perversion of like, well, no, God wants us
to acknowledge beauty. Like we would eat something good. We would see a beautiful
piece of art, but it doesn't mean you can steal it. It doesn't mean you can take
it, you know? And yet, so I think that, you know, you're onto something with that.
Yeah, so we've got that category, and I want to circle back to that with just
everyday practices, but I want to just touch on this category of how are we to
think about spiritual warfare in the context of illness,
mental illness, and particularly the question I get is, because the field of modern
psychology and psychiatry and even medicine as it exists now is different than how
it was when Jesus walked the earth, how much of some of what he was dealing with
was, I'm going to use poor words here because this is your area of expertise, so
forgive me, I'm fumbling here, but was exclusively spiritual, such as possession,
and how much of it was what we might think of as today a mental illness that is
is biochemical, is biological, is even trauma -related, but we're labeling it
differently. How do you look at that, Joel, kind of both theologically, but also
then we can go to the practical of what's helpful? Yeah, 100%. So I think one of
the challenges that we have at times is we try to read into the Bible things that
the Bible itself or the biblical authors themselves are not keen on answering. Like
for instance, Genesis 1 through 3 is not aimed at answering our scientific questions.
We have a lot of science questions, right? And then we end up trying to force the
biblical text to say things that... They just weren't interested. Actually, Genesis 1
through 11, I like to add 12, it's a polemic. It's an argument against the creation
myths of the time that we're trying to deceive a whole bunch of people. You know,
it's like, no, this is the one true story. And so I would just give us a little
bit of a word of caution of like looking at the biblical passages in the New
Testament particularly and trying to create. A clear A plus B always equals C.
I love it. And so one of the things that Jesus does, actually, Jesus, in the
Gospel of Luke, he says it this way. He says, if by the hand of God demons are
cast out, then you know that the kingdom of God has arrived. Well, guess what Jesus
does? He's casting out demons. Why? Because the Gospels are all about reminding us
that the point of the incarnation is where the kingdom of God begins to come back,
right? It's the renewal. It's the restoration. It's new heavens and new earth. So
you have that part of it. And in it, I think there's some principles that we can
draw out, particularly with Jesus' interaction with demon exorcism, with the sick,
with those that have ailment. One, there's this one famous story.
It's like, hey, this individual, did their parents sin? Is this why? And Jesus is
like, no, none of that. It's so that the glory of God might be shown and then
heals the person. So I think we have to be careful of trying to... read into
things, read into the biblical text, something that's not there. Science is really
beautiful and it's really amazing. And a lot of times it actually affirms to us so
much of what in ancient people were struggling to make sense of. So once again,
can you have the presence of both demonic oppression and in the case of non
-believers possession? Absolutely. And do you have the presence of frail?
human bodies and sin that has actually messed up our brain neurology to create
actual disorders like schizophrenia or legitimate NPD,
narcissistic personality disorder, things like that? Absolutely. Should we view it as
a one -for -one every time that a person who's maybe... diagnosed with a mental
health illness that we then have to demand that there is some spiritual influence or
some demonic i would be like that's both unwise and unhelpful yeah you know now i
would do some diagnostics though along the way has the person opened themselves up
to um uh, windows of demonic activity, whether it's, uh, it'd be Wiccan practices or
Ouija boards. I mean, there's all kinds of things that you would want to look at
and say, Hey, is, could there be the presence of that? And it's like, well, okay,
great. You'd want to deal with those things and have a both and approach to it.
Like we would want the best medical help, um, that. God has given us in common
grace in order to deal with neurological imbalances. And we want to submit that
thing to prayer. Because while all human physicians are limited at some point with
their knowledge... The physician, the great physician, Jesus, is unlimited in his
ability. And it's not up to us to determine if he acts or if he doesn't.
It's up to us to pray and to trust the Lord in his decision -making with that.
And so people might be like, well, that feels like a circular answer. You're kind
of like saying yes and no. I'm like, yeah, I kind of am. And I think this is
part of the mystery. This is part of the human mind that wants just perfect
answers. And like I said, I think there is some diagnostics that you would want to
do with what you've opened yourself up to. I think there's paths to demonic
oppression. And oftentimes it is pornography. It is alcoholism. It is opioid
addictions. 1 Peter 5 .8 says, be sober -minded. That Greek word sober -minded has an
antonym, the opposite of that word. It's a well -known Greek word that was used in
the temples in the Greco -Roman world, the temple of Delphi, the oracles.
They would use plants and hallucinatives in order to intoxicate the mind,
which I think is fascinating. Where Peter's like, by the way, don't be like that.
Be sober -minded. Have sobriety of mind that you might rightly know who God is. And
so we'd want to be careful of those things. I appreciate that. By the way, I think
Jesus often answered questions very similarly to how you are, right, refusing the
false dichotomy. And what I hear and what you're saying is both and. And I love
the word diagnostic because I think about that way as a clinician. You know, if I
think about the diagnostic manual, right, with all the diagnostic criteria, I do
think, I mean, it's not right now because we have this bifurcation between the
spiritual and the scientific in our medical model. But I think if we were to
integrate them, which you and I are both hands of, you would have a diagnostic
category for, you know, and it could be a combination. It could be nothing to do
with anything spiritual. It's just a, you know, or there could be, and for what
it's worth, for those of you listening and just for your curiosity, Joel, it's
interesting. I'm trained in a model of therapy that is part of why I wrote
Boundaries for Your Soul. Kim and I integrated it with the Christian theology is
that it's a very spiritual model that is not Christian. And in that model, early on
in my training, I think they've changed this, but they accounted for what they
called unattached burdens, which are, you know, in the model, you're trying to find
the part of yourself that's wounded or broken or hurting and connect with that part
and heal that part. And in our adaptation of it, we invite... God to be with that
part, right? And there's a lot of neurobiology for this that is very, you know,
you're actually kind of, the body keeps the discourse of you're actually finding the
place in your body that's still embedded in your embodied world that maybe from
childhood that still lives there through memory and through consciousness and you're
actually kind of finding it. It's very profound and it works. But in this protocol,
apart from the Christian, the secular version of this, there is this idea that
sometimes you bump into a part that is not of you. Yeah. And I'm like,
and oftentimes they would say in those early trainings, they're called unattached
burdens, that these come in through things that you just named. They can come in
through ritual abuse. They can come in through, again, it's not your fault,
especially if you're the victim, right, in those cases. But there might have been
some exposure. It can come in through things we expose ourselves to. And they're
usually some of those big T traumatic things that just kind of...
is something going on there spiritually that evil, you know, and we're just naive to
not consider that in our own walks. Even to this day,
oftentimes, if I'm going through a hard time, I err. I think the psychologist in me
errs toward what's concrete, what's real, what can I see? But if I'm going through
a hard struggle or someone in my family is kind of running the diagnostic Rolodex,
I wonder what this is. Is this... They're not sleeping well. Is this, we're not
getting the right, you know, have I eaten horribly the last couple of weeks? Is
this something I'm not taking?
And is there something spiritual going on? That has nothing to do with us. We're
not doing anything. This isn't sin. This isn't, or this isn't, I'm, there's something
going on here. That is a diagnostic category that is important to consider. That's
my two cents on that. I want to, I guess now I want to flip it to you.
What are a few? simple, not kind of hokey, but biblical ways to engage spiritual
warfare, especially for people who don't lead us into either extreme of being overly
obsessed with it, but also not discounting it. What are some practical things we can
do? What do you do in your own family? How do we engage in a way that is not
naive, to use Jesus' words, where we're shrewd as a serpent, right? We're not naive,
but also innocent. Yeah, you know, I would just go back to that very first question
that you asked, Allison, of what is spiritual warfare? And it's this desire for God
to have his family back together. And so I would want to frame it in that way of
like, what are the things that we do? Well, I think Paul gives it to us in
Galatians chapter 5. And often I think we think of, I like to break it up into
what's normal. and non -normative and the non -normative things get the most highlight
reels, right? It's the demon exorcisms. It's the big, massive, you know, and power
encounters or deliverance ministries. And while I wouldn't say that those are wrong
by any means, I think that those are non -normative. Well, what is normative? Here
are the things that are normative. Galatians chapter five, the fruit of the spirit.
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self -control. By the
way, we live in a world that does not want to buy into the beauty of the fruit
of the Spirit. They want to buy into the vices of the flesh. And there's a real
enemy who's, again, working in systems and structures in order to move us away from
the beauty of the kingdom of God into really the chaos of the kingdom of the world
and loves to use selfish ambition, vain conceit, all these things in order to
perpetuate that. And so a very practical thing that you and I get to do. is to
practice and cultivate the fruit of the Spirit in our lives, in our family, with
our loved ones, you know? I mean, so practical, but like on the road when somebody
cuts you off and you want to lose your mind, right? And like reminding yourself in
that moment, like I don't have to be led by my emotion. I'm feeling something, but
that feeling can be an indication that I got to return this feeling and this
emotion back to the foot of the cross, back to the Lord so that the Lord can
sanctify me and I can respond appropriately. And so I would just say, you know,
like the fruit of the spirit. And by the way, that is a winsome witness to the
world of the truth of who Jesus is. And when we get to participate in that,
and this is that whole. idea of communicating the truth of the gospel, both with
our words and with our works, this is all part of spiritual warfare. Our family
has, just the last year, we wrote up a family covenant, like, hey,
what do we believe as a family? Like, what do we stand for, you know? And where
in the Bible does it prove these things? Because we want to be like... say we're
Christians. We say we follow King Jesus. And so what does Jesus tell us to follow
these things out? And so it's like, hey, we're a family that's committed to the
Bible. We want to read the Bible together. We're committed to prayer. We're committed
to the fruit of the Spirit. We're committed to loving each other. We're committed to
forgiveness. We're going to forgive as quickly as we possibly can. We're committed to
our health. We want to be good stewards of the bodies that God has given us. And
so all of these things, I mean, some people are like, wait, I was not expecting
that at all for a conversation on spiritual warfare. And I'd be like, and that's
exactly why. Because the enemy wants you to not be thinking about any of that. But
a compromise spiritually, emotionally, and physically are perfect entry points for the
enemy to then snatch you up. I think often about Genesis 4,
Cain and Abel, and the Lord tells Cain, sin is crouching. At the door,
it's waiting to devour you. And I think about this enemy. This enemy is so patient
and so willing to wait for the perfect opportunity. And then the Lord says to Cain,
by the way, you must rule over it. You know, and there's a way out for this.
And so I think that that's why active participation in the fruit of the spirit,
in living out the truth of the gospel, and just like prayer, fasting,
loving Jesus, being a part of a community of faith, taking care of your mental
health, going to therapy, like using God's common grace given to us.
These are all acts of spiritual warfare because it's recovering holiness. That's a
word. That's great. Thank you. I love that. I love the, that's what we... can
control and it's good and it's powerful and it's not nothing. It's deep and true
and good. Tell us where, tell my listeners where they can find you and you're so
helpful online and this is a great book and you've got another book. Tell us a
little bit about where to find you and all that you're doing. Yeah. So I do a
bunch of my kind of conversations and stuff on Instagram. So it's just my last name
at Mudamali, M -U -D -D -A -M -A -L -L -E. Not many of us out there, so it should pop
up pretty quick. And then I do a lot. of my writing on Substack.
It's just called Humble Theology. If you look that up, that's a great place. The
book is available wherever books are sold. It's on discount right now on Amazon. And
then my first book I wrote is a book on humility. It's called The Hidden Peace.
And so I actually think these two books go really well together, you know,
cultivating humility, which is so necessary for the spiritual war that we find
ourselves in. And then if you are interested in like strange, weird, things about
the Bible. You're more interested about the Nephilim stuff and the sons of God.
We've got a podcast. podcast friend of ours, mine, Blurry Creatures and I,
we created a subset called Stranger Theology. And so Stranger Theology is like a
place to get like grounded theological scholarship and writing. But we talk about
weird stuff in the Bible. Like why in the world is Balaam's, you know, donkey? Like
what is going on with that? And is there a point to these stories? I love that. I
love that you have that outlet. Did you ever read the Madeline L 'Engle book called
Many Waters? No, I haven't. Do you know her work? Yeah. A little bit,
she's different, but some of her stuff kind of imaginative stuff. It's like science
fiction, but it's a little like Narnia. There's like spiritual undertones. And that
one is about the Nephilim. And I read it as a kid, and it just brought to life
that period of time that we don't often hear about, but it's part of the big story
that we always hear about. So she piqued my curiosity, so I love it that you're
bringing that up. You're bringing it back. Yeah, I am. Absolutely. Thanks for your
time, Joel. We went over today, but it's just so fascinating, so rich, and I so
appreciate you. Always. Appreciate you. Thank you for joining me for this week's
episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you take a moment to
subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to or watch
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of you every day, a brief daily reflection to help you start your mornings with a
steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor
God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God -given self.
“A joyful heart is good medicine.”
But not the kind of joy you fake.
In this episode, Dr. Alison explores the difference between healthy humor and harmful humor — and why that distinction matters for your nervous system, your relationships, and your spiritual formation.
Humor can soothe.
It can bond.
It can bring relief.
But it can also deflect.
Minimize.
Or quietly wound.
You’ll learn:
- Why humor can feel safe for one person and threatening for another
- How teasing can create intimacy… or erode it
- What it looks like to practice discernment without shaming yourself
- Why “getting your joy back” is often a sign of real healing
This conversation is part of Pillar Three in Dr. Cook’s Four Pillars series: Joy & Delight — not as a personality trait or a passing mood, but as a practice of inner formation.
Because joy is not just an emotional expression.
It’s a signal.
When your nervous system begins to feel safe enough to soften, laughter shifts. Delight becomes accessible. Connection deepens.
And sometimes the kind of humor you practice reveals more about your healing than you realize.
More Resources:
Follow Dr. Alison on Instagram @dralisoncook
Join the 80,000+ soul menders in our email community and receive weekly reflections and gentle practices here.
If you liked this episode, then you’ll love:
Episode 191: The 5 Most Important Things I've Learned About Faith, Attachment, & The Inner Life
Episode 194: When Relationships Start to Drain You—Using Discernment to Stay Connected Without Losing Yourself
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
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*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.
While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.
TRANSCRIPT
A joyful heart is good. And I want to be clear here. It's not because a joyful
heart is something we put on or fake. It's because joy that bubbles up from the
inside can literally support the body. For me, humor has often felt safe.
It has felt like a connection. It felt like warmth. But that isn't always the case.
Sometimes that very same behavior, whether it comes out as teasing or joking or
practical pranks, can land as comfort for one nervous system like it does. but it
can land as chaos for another, and it all depends on the way it's being used.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm Dr.
Allison, and today in this deep dive episode, we're continuing a series I'm calling
The Four Pillars. These are four... areas of inner formation that I come back to
time and again because they show up in every season of life, in healing seasons,
in seasons of doubt and faith, and in our relational. well -being, right?
We've talked about pillar one, that's faith, attachment in the inner life, what forms
us from the inside out so that we can become whole people. And then we talked
about pillar two a couple of weeks ago on connection and discernment and how to
stay open in relationships without losing yourself. And today we're moving into pillar
three. I love this pillar. It's joy and delight. This isn't a fluffy add -on.
This isn't a sort of positive vibes detour. It's a serious part of becoming a whole
person. And I want to take maybe a surprisingly specific angle on this pillar
because I think it reveals so much about emotional maturity and spiritual health.
And that's humor. What I like to think of as... And it's the ability to laugh both
at ourselves and with one another in safe, loving relationships.
Because one of the clearest signs that someone is healing isn't just that we can
suddenly set healthier boundaries. It's that we begin to laugh again. I want to
anchor today's episode in scripture right from the start. The
Medicine. And I want to be clear here. It's not because a joyful heart is something
we put on or fake. It's because joy that bubbles up from the inside can literally
support the body and the nervous system. It can soften the places where we're
clenched or tense. It can say to the system, it's okay to breathe. It's okay to
come out of survival. It's okay to see the humor in this. Not everything is urgent.
Not everything has to be addressed or fixed. everything is a crisis. Sometimes it's
okay to laugh at the absurdity of what it means to be human. Humor is the capacity
to hold reality with enough safety that you can find release. It's not denying
reality, it's holding reality. Again, with enough steadiness internally that you can
find that moment of lift, that moment of relief. And it's such an important quality
that we bring not only to ourselves, the ability to kind of laugh at ourselves a
little bit, hold ourselves lightly, but also a quality that we bring into our
relationships with other people. If you've been married for a while, or if you have
children, or if you've had a good friend in your life for a long time, you know
that that ability to laugh together, not laughing at other people, not making fun of
each other, but laughing together at the absurdity of our humanness and even our
human frailties and foibles is a necessary ingredient to hold us together, to bond
us. It's sort of the counter to crying together, right? If you can cry together, if
you can grieve together, if you can mourn together with someone else, there's a real
depth and substance to that relationship. The same can be said for laughed. if we
can laugh together, if we can honor things with a little bit of lightness, it
really is the glue that holds our relationships together. So if you're listening,
many of us have different experiences with humor, especially in the context of family
relationships. And I want to tell you two stories. My own story is where humor
became a really beautiful part of my family. But I've also talked to a lot of
people where humor was misused in families. And so humor is sort of a Tricky thing
to navigate as an adult. In my family growing up, humor was a kind of love
language. We laughed a lot. My dad in particular has a gift, I would say, a
spiritual gift of humor. I talked about this with Annie F. Downs on the podcast
last year, the spiritual gift of humor. And my dad has that gift. And so
inevitably, he didn't use it to avoid what was hard. We dealt with hard stuff in
my family. But my dad had this knack for lightening a moment when it needed to be
lightened, right? And it eased the tensions. in a way that really kind of lifted
all of our spirits. And we would just start laughing at something absurd or
something in ourselves, often laughing at ourselves. I think that was the key
ingredient I saw in my dad is he was the first to laugh at himself, right? And I
saw that model, the beauty of that confident enough to be able to laugh at my own
foibles. And so for me, humor has often felt safe. It's felt connecting. It's felt
like warmth, but that isn't always the case. Sometimes that very same behavior,
whether it comes out as teasing or joking or practical pranks, can land as comfort
for one nervous system like it did mine, but it can land as chaos for another. And
it all depends on the way it's being used. I remember back in episode 111,
I had a great conversation with Beth McCord, who's an Enneagram expert and just a
brilliant woman and just so real in how she describes her own journey. And she
talked about how watching her husband tease and joke with their kids and how that
was at times activating for her. She could recognize that they were having a great
time. She could see that this was good and nurturing for them, but her body was
screaming, this has to stop. This is too much. Someone's about to get hurt. bad is
about to happen. As she unpacked that over time, she realized it connected to her
own story. She'd been teased a lot as a little girl in really painful ways. It
wasn't nurturing. It was painful and mean. And so teasing didn't register as playful
connection. It registered as we're on the edge of humiliation or harm. This is bad,
right? And so what I so appreciated about this conversation was how she described
learning to work. With her activation over time to honor it, she didn't shame
herself for it. Her experience was valid and it was real. But she also didn't want
to blame her family for the ways they were genuinely having fun. And so she learned
to practice discernment in real time. She'd have to ask herself, is something
unhealthy happening out there? Or is something tender happening in me?
And sometimes she could stay present and remind herself this is okay. And sometimes
she needed to step away. And sometimes she needed to ask her husband and kids,
especially as they became older, to pause, especially if she was in a vulnerable
place so her own system could settle. And that story is such a compassionate picture
of what this pillar is really about, how we reconnect with joy, with humor and
delight, not just in ourselves, but in our relationships. And how these aren't just
personality traits, right? Some people are funny and some people aren't. But how we
orient to joy is something we have to work out over time. These are nervous system
experiences. And for many of us, recovering joy means... over time to recognize what
feels safe, what feels activating, and how to care for ourselves without shutting
down our aliveness. So today we're going to talk about why playfulness isn't
immaturity, but often a sign of growth, why trauma can erase that sense of
playfulness and joy, not because we're broken, but because something in our bodies
learn to brace often when we're very young, and how joy often returns through safe
relationships and small intentional practices that welcome that inner child, the one
within, the one who maybe was hurt back then, but longs to come alive again,
to laugh, create. and wonder and delight without fear. So if you've been listening
along to the daily podcast with me, I've loved making these episodes for you and
with you. You'll notice I try each week to weave in at least one episode that
touches on joy or hope or delight through some small practice.
Savoring what's good, noticing beauty with intention, recovering a sense of meaning
and hope and purpose, practicing gratitude without denying. The reality of what's hard
are opening tiny, beautiful doorways to playfulness and aliveness. And the reason it's
so important for me to include joy and hope and playfulness and laughter, not only
in this deep dive episode, but also each week, is that research shows that emotions
like joy and curiosity don't just feel good in the moment when they strike. They
actually broaden our perspective and help us build longer -term inner resources like
resilience, creativity, and... relational openness. In other words, joy isn't just a
reward for people who have it all together. Joy is a part of how a nervous system
learns. I'm allowed to come out of survival. So when I return to this pillar again
and again, I'm doing it because I want to help you practice your way back into
aliveness, one small opening at a time.
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There are two different things we often call joy. One is a performance joy, the
kind that denies reality, that insists that I'm fine, I'm grateful,
I'm blessed, look at how wonderful my life is. It can be sincere,
but it can also function as armor. The kind of joy I want us to talk about today
is embodied delight, the kind that shows up when your system softens enough to
receive. goodness. And embodied delight usually returns through ordinary human things.
That spontaneous laughter that comes when you see your kid doing something silly. It
comes through play when you just let go and stop planning and have a good time. It
comes through shared inside jokes. I'm going to talk about some of these in the
episode today where you just share humor with somebody. It comes through lightness
that doesn't deny heaviness, but that brings release in the midst of it. And it
comes with the ability to be fully yourself around someone else, right? Because the
best sort of humor honors our human foibles and our human frailties and even the
things we get wrong, right? The best kind of humor says, oh, I see that. And
there's a humorous edge in it because you see it and I see it. We're sharing it
together. And man, the best thing we can do in this moment is just laugh, right?
Oh my gosh, there it is again. And we laugh at ourselves with someone else and
it's healing. It's a beautiful moment of healing. This is why I love this pillar so
much. It's not theoretical. You can feel the difference in your body. So I want to
specifically now talk a little bit about humor as a form of joy for a moment
because humor is one of those human capacities that can either heal a relationship
or quietly harm it when it's misused. Some humor opens a window. It brings relief.
It softens the body. It helps us remember we're on the same team. We're all
muddling our way through. My husband and I years ago coined this. term that we use,
if we get into an argument or we start bickering, and it's really just because
we're both tired or hungry and we're not really arguing about anything that's
meaningful or that we really even need to get to the root of, we call it a
Seinfeld moment, right? So if you remember that show Seinfeld, they'd have a whole
episode and it was sort of about nothing and nonsense. And so we'll come back to
each other so quickly just by going, oh, we're having a Seinfeld moment. And then
we can laugh at ourselves because we're both just being ridiculous, right? We're both
tired. We're both cranky. There's nothing deep going on. We're not really needing to
hurt. other, overanalyze, right? What's going on? This is just a Seinfeld moment.
We're in a moment. Let's just laugh at ourselves and move on. When we have that
category to name some things in our relationships, it really helps sometimes grease
the skids, right? A friction that just happens in our day -to -day life. But in
other instances, humor can be used as armor. It can deflect intimacy. It can avoid
the... harder emotions like grief or even anger. It can mask contempt.
It can keep us from telling the truth, right? And you see this when humor is used
maybe to mock someone, even someone you love. They'll say something kind of mean and
they're trying to hurt you. They're trying to create a dig. It's sort of passive
aggressive or sarcastic. And then when you get your feelings hurt, they say, well, I
was just teasing. You should just be able to take a joke. Well, that's not humor
being used in a healing way. That's humor being used to hurt. And that doesn't
help. create intimacy. That doesn't help create safety. That harms it. We also can
use humor to deflect and not tell the truth, right? We can be overly self -effacing
in a humorous way that's not rooted in the confidence to be able to say, man, I
know who I am and I can laugh at myself because I just did something really dumb,
right? That's humor being used positively. It's like, oh, I did that thing again. I
can't believe I did it, but I'm confident enough to be able to kind of laugh at
myself about it, right? But then sometimes when we're not feeling secure. We don't
feel the confidence to speak up honestly. We can use humor to hide behind it, sort
of, right? We can make ourselves the butt of the jokes without really speaking up
and saying, hey, I actually need to say something here. I need to take something
seriously about myself here, right? So humor can be used both ways. Unhealthy humor
can become a form of spiritual bypassing. It's the laugh that changes the subject
when we're actually sad. It's the joke that keeps you from saying, hurt or I'm not
okay, right? You say I'm fine and you laugh at yourself when your body is clearly
not fine. Maybe it's humor used to avoid vulnerability so you never have to risk
needing anyone or being seen. In this case, humor isn't the problem.
Avoidance is the problem. Healthy humor brings release and then returns to presence.
Healthy humor honors reality. It's rooted in confidence. Bypassing humor keeps you
from presence. altogether. Many of us were never taught to distinguish that
difference. Here's a framework that can help psychology researchers who study humor
often describe different humor styles, some healthier, some unhealthier, and they land
very differently in the nervous system and in our relationships. The first is
affiliative humor. This is humor that builds connection and reduces tension. And then
there's a second kind that's called self -enhancing humor. It's humor that helps you
cope, find perspective, and stay resilient. These two are really healthy, right? But
then there's a third kind. call aggressive humor. This is sarcasm or humor that puts
someone else down. And then there's self -defeating humor. This is humor that
diminishes yourself to stay accepted. And those last two veer into that unhealthy
category. These distinctions are so important because again, not all humor is healthy
humor. And here's the deeper point that underlies all of this. To be able to find
the humor together in a healthy way, you need several important qualities. You need
a stable enough sense. of self to tolerate being imperfect. You need enough self
-compassion to stay kind even when you're not impressive and you're seeing the humor
in that. You need enough nervous system safety to interpret laughter as release.
rather than threat. And when you begin to grow those qualities in yourself and find
them in other people, it's really a joy to be in relationships. We can breathe with
someone. We can exhale. We can be human. We can laugh together, both with each
other and with our own selves. We're not making fun of each other. We're not hiding
from the rough edges of our personalities, but we're laughing together at the
absurdity of our humanity. It is, again, just as powerful as crying together in
those moments. It's physical embodied relief. And that's why often a really good
laugh with someone leads to tears. It's an emotional release for what is so often
just too much to hold alone. I remember one moment in particular in my late 20s
that taught me the value of this quality in a friendship. Taught me to see it in
myself and in someone else. I was single and I'd gone to visit a mutual friend, a
dear friend who was newly married. She lived far away and I was staying with her
in her apartment. And she was living this romantic dream that had felt so elusive
to me. It was Valentine's Day weekend, so it's good timing for this episode. There
were roses all over from her new husband, photos from their romantic honeymoon. They
were so in love. And I was in this incredibly tender, lonely season of my life.
And I wanted to be a good friend of my friend. but inside I was just dying. And
when I went home, I started telling my roommate, who was also a dear friend, about
what happened. I was kind of feeling sorry for myself, right? So I was kind of
complaining to her and just kind of starting to explain how this weekend had gone.
And she just... busted out in peals of laughter. She just started laughing so hard.
She wasn't laughing at me. I knew her well enough to know that. She was so safe.
She was laughing with me. Like the whole thing became absolutely hysterical. Like I
just kept thinking of all the different moments, you know, when my own loneliness
was just magnified by all this romantic joy happening in front of me. And the truth
is no one had done anything wrong. I loved my friend. I was truly happy for her.
I was also genuinely going through a hard season. I was lonely. I just a lot was
going on in my life. And just the juxtaposition of our lives were just real. There
was no denying it. And I had this other friend who could come in and just see the
humor in it, right? The absurdity of it in a way that honored. all of us. It was
just something we had to laugh at. And the laughter, let the whole complicated
reality be shared without shame. It let me release what I had felt without needing
to take it out on my friend when it wasn't her fault. And I realized in that
moment how crucial it is to have relationships where you can hold that both end.
You can hold the joy together. You can hold the sorrow together. Because you have a
friend that knows you and feels for you, you can also laugh together, even in the
face of some of your hard times. And I'll say something I've seen. over and over.
One of the quiet glues that keeps intimacy alive, whether in marriage and friendship
or in family, is a shared climate of playfulness. Not constant joking, not sarcasm,
not avoiding hard things, but enough lightness that love stays breathable. Playfulness
introduces flexibility. It helps us repair the tiny ruptures before they become
resentments. If you're listening and thinking, I used to laugh more. I used to be
lighter. I feel like I lost that. I want you to know that is not uncommon. These
realities don't mean we're too sensitive or something is wrong with us. It just
means a part of us has learned to protect against an old kind of pain, right?
And so we want to pay attention to that and notice that because our nervous systems
had to become vigilant to survive. Remember, play requires safety, and safety is
something that we build. It doesn't just happen. We have to tend and nurture a
sense of lightness, a sense of relief. And sometimes it often starts with repairing
where we've been hurt. Here's the thing. Often the work of repair starts inside of
us. We have to go back to that young part of us, the part of us that knows how
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curious, often that we've lost in our adult relationships. We have to go back to
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This is where the work of repair, of healing, can get really tender and very
internal. Because the part of us that knows how to play, the part of us that knows
how to be silly and light and spontaneous, often isn't our adult, responsible, high
-capacity self. It's often young. A young part of us who learned early on that humor
is risky, sometimes even cruel, that it's childish, maybe we were shamed for being
silly, that it makes you vulnerable, that it might get you in trouble, that it
often gets taken away. And that part of us goes into hiding. And then as adults,
we get very skilled at being competent and productive and responsible and discerning
and mature. But we're not always as skilled at delight. And here's what I want you
to hear. It doesn't mean we're doing something wrong. It means our nervous systems
have learned to prioritize survival over aliveness. And I think of the words of
Jesus who asks us to become again like a little child. Because play and laughter
and aliveness requires a specific kind of safety. The kind of safety where your body
isn't scanning for what might go wrong. Your mind isn't bracing for criticism.
And your heart isn't preparing for humiliation or disappointment. And when I think of
Jesus saying those words, I think to myself, because Jesus ultimately is safe. And
as we learn to know his voice, that childlike sense of play and wonder can return.
So if you relate to that, there's a question I want you to consider. What did that
young child inside of you have to give up in order to stay safe? Maybe it was
laughter. Maybe it was creativity. Maybe it was spontaneity or curiosity. Maybe it
was the freedom to be a little ridiculous or a little silly or a little goofy. And
part of healing isn't only learning to regulate anxiety and work on our communication
and our boundaries. It's learning to welcome those playful, childlike, innocent parts
of you back home. Not forced, not performative, not I'm going to be fun now,
right, with clenched. fists and gritted teeth but gently through actual experiences of
recognizing that safety of a god who says become like a child because you are safe
with me and i want to name something true here for some of you the return of
laughter and play won't necessarily happen first in a relationship it might start
there but it might start in private just noticing something small in the presence of
the god who is always safe and who always honors and longs to see that childlike
sense of wonder in you. Maybe you practice watching something that makes you laugh
and just notice your body soften. Maybe you let yourself enjoy a moment without
immediately feeling guilty like you should be more productive. Maybe you do something
silly that you just want to do for the fun of it. These are not trivial practices.
These are formational. When you nurture that inner young one. of you.
You're not regressing. You're restoring something holy. As we close, I want to offer
three simple practices you can try this week. The first is just to ask yourself,
what kind of humor is this? Whenever humor shows up, maybe it's your own or someone
else's, ask, did this bring relief and connection and lightness or did it create
distance? Did it invite presence or did it cause us to avoid something vulnerable?
Do I feel more like myself or less like myself? Just kind of notice the different
kinds of humor that you see around you. What's mean -spirited and what is bringing
relief or joy or an honest release? And then number two, I like to call this the
one minute savor and smile. Once a day, choose a tiny...
and stay with it for just a few seconds maybe a minute this might be a warm drink
a funny text a meme a song a pet a memory let your body register this feels good
and if a smile comes let it come without explaining it away if a laugh comes start
laughing just the other night i was watching some silly show. I'll tell you what it
is because I find them hysterical. It's Carpool Karaoke with James Corden, these back
episodes. You can find them on YouTube and they just crack me up and I was just
over by myself cracking up and I think my husband thought I had lost it but I
just needed to laugh and they made me laugh and I let myself do it without feeling
like a fool, right? So just notice what makes you smile and let your body feel it.
Let yourself lean into the release. And then number three I like to call the repair
rehearsal. Because if you're someone for whom humor has been harmful, right, it's
really important to name that so you can distinguish humor that hurts from humor
that is life giving. So just choose one phrase that you practice saying out loud or
naming or writing in your journal. Maybe you say it with the other person if it's
safe. But most of all, this is for you to notice when humor is being misused to
say that landed wrong. That wasn't kind. or that isn't humor that helps or there
was cruel intent behind that sarcasm i don't laugh at that the more you can name
when humor is hurting the more you'll be able to distinguish wait a minute that was
funny i can laugh at myself here or that person loves me and they're teasing me
and i want to be able to take that joke i want to be able to laugh at that or
that comedian is actually being funny in a kind They're not being mean.
They're not trying to mock someone. They're actually just illuminating the humor in
this situation, right? This is such an important skill to be able to distinguish
between humor that harms and humor that heals, whether it's in the culture around us
or whether it's in our own relationships. And so the more you can delineate a name,
you... create repair in your own system. Your nervous system becomes more willing to
trust you when it is time to play, when it is time to laugh. You'll let loose.
You'll trust yourself to lean into the release of good humor, of healthy humor,
of kind humor, of humor that heals. And lastly, just a few questions to consider as
we move out into the day. Where has your life become all responsibility and no
delight? What does your system interpret as unsafe? about humor or play?
Who are the people with whom you can breathe where lightness feels possible and
real? What might it look like to practice joy as a form of formation?
May you find the courage to let delight return in small, honest ways. May you learn
to laugh again, not as escape, but as release. And may God meet you not only in
your striving, but in your play. in the holy healing gift of being fully alive.
Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean
so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
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That'll ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others.
While you're there, I'd love it if you leave a five -star review. And be sure to
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help you start your mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become
the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to
your God -given self.
Have you ever felt exhausted — not because you don’t care, but because you’re carrying more than you can name?
Joined by therapist and author Nedra Glover Tawwab, Dr. Alison reflects on why caring deeply can sometimes leave us depleted — and why the answer isn’t trying harder or pulling away.
This conversation doesn’t offer quick fixes.
Instead, it invites you to pause and consider a different question—one that has less to do with effort and more to do with mutuality.
If you’ve been feeling tired, responsible, or overwhelmed while trying to do the right thing, this episode offers perspective and hope—without pressure or oversimplification.
More Resources:
📖 Read The Balancing Act by Nedra Tewaab
Find additional resources at nedratawwab.com
Follow Nedra Tawwab on Instagram @nedratawwab
Follow Dr. Alison on Instagram @dralisoncook
If you liked this episode, then you’ll love:
Episode 194: When the Relationship Starts to Drain You—Using Discernment to Stay Connected Without Losing Yourself
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TRANSCRIPT
We're living in a moment in a season where connection is deeply longed for and
needed and yet can be really confusing. We hear things about sort of setting
boundaries as cutting people off. There are divisions, there are polarizations, and so
often the quiet work of connectedness and what that really means can get lost.
Without discernment, connection can become unsafe. Without connection, discernment can
harden into isolation. A formed life, a deeply formed life emotionally and spiritually
always requires both. And that's what we're going to explore in today's episode.
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm Dr.
Allison, and I'm so glad you're here with us this week. If you're new here, I'm so
glad you found your way. podcast is a space where we come together each week
faithfully for thoughtful conversations about inner formation, the slow,
often unseen work where emotional healing meets spiritual growth, right?
We bring together the emotional, the mental health, and the spiritual health in one
integrated place. We draw on attachment theory, parts work, scripture,
and lived experience to explore what it actually means to form a secure, the vibrant
inner life with God. This isn't a performative faith. This isn't a place for quick
fixes. This isn't a place where we spiritualize everything. This is a way of living
that is increasingly marked by safety, discernment, wisdom,
and grounded love, all the way from the inside out into our relationships with other
people. If you're joining us on YouTube, you might notice we're in a different space
today. I'm in Boston this week, where my family continues to spend a little bit of
our time each year. And it feels really fitting to be here in Boston as we talk
about place, presence, and connection. There's something grounding about New England
for my New England listeners, especially in the middle of winter. And it's not only
because of the Patriots, and that's my apologies to the rest of the country if
you're sick of the Patriots. But because of the way life settles in here,
even when it's cold outside, there's a rooted feeling here, a historical feeling
here. The trees are tall. The roots go deep. You have a sense of the history of
where we've come from in this place. And that's one of the reasons I love kind of
hunkering down here, even for a few weeks in the middle of winter. If you're
listening today, chances are you're someone who wants to grow. You want to heal.
You've been noticing some painful patterns. You want to love others, but not at the
cost of yourself any longer. You care deeply about relationships.
You want to stay open, loving, and faithful. And at the same time, you may be
realizing that being good or responsible or kind or the listening ear has sometimes
come with a quiet cost to your own clarity, peace, or sense of self. This podcast
exists for people who are asking these questions right now. Questions like, what does
wisdom? actually look like intense cultural moments? How do I stay connected to
myself without self -abandonment? How do I listen for God's voice, not just outside
of me, not just through other people, but within my own spirit? There's never been
a time where wisdom and discernment is more necessary when we're just flooded with
so much noise from all different kinds of people all around us, from social media,
from the news, from media, from our friends, from even people in our community.
Hopefully we're surrounded with wise voices with wisdom and discerning eyes and ears
but we also have to learn how to be discerning within our own selves Last month,
I spent some time talking with you about the deepest lessons I've learned about
formation and growth, what shapes us over time and how interchange really happens.
And moving forward, I want to be intentional about having some of these sort of
cornerstone conversations, these four core areas of growth we return to again and
again on the podcast because they show up in every season of the spiritual and
emotional life. As I've done this work and as I've been synthesizing so many ideas
these past few years on the podcast, I've identified four sort of cornerstone areas
that we do continue to return to time and again from different angles. These are
sort of the key areas of growth. First is safety and healing, where we learn to
feel anchored in our inner being. This is where we focus on nervous system repair,
trauma -informed healing, and the slow work of regulation, resilience, and integration.
Number two is connection and discernment. This is our topic today. we learn how to
stay open to others without losing ourselves. This is where we talk about relational
clarity, secure attachment, boundaries, mutuality, and repair when things rupture.
And then we get into hope, joy, and delight, rediscovering aliveness, not just
survival. This is where we practice what it means to thrive, not just survive.
We look for wonder, meaning, savoring, and the return of vitality,
beauty, and play. And then the last one is formation and growth. This is the slow,
often unseen daily work where we tend to our souls regularly because life is always
throwing things at us in the present moment every single day whether it's your kids
your spouse or friends something going on in the world around you right even after
we've healed there's still ongoing work of healing we've never fully arrived and so
this is where we name the patterns that have shaped us in the past and also are
aware of what's shaping us in the present so that we continue to move forward in
life with increasing clarity and wisdom and always grounded in a deeper and deeper
understanding and rest in God's love Over the coming months, I'm going to be sharing
a couple of longer solo episodes that take a deeper dive into one of these areas,
each one grounded in psychology, especially as it relates to attachment theory and
parts work and shaped by a spiritually formed imagination. And today we're going to
begin with connection and discernment, because this may be one of the most important
and most misunderstood skills of emotional and spiritual maturity. And we're living in
a moment in a season where connection is deeply longed for and needed and yet can
be really confusing. Many of us are aching for belonging, intimacy, and a sense of
meaningful community. And at the same time, there are so many mixed messages all
around us. We hear things about sort of setting boundaries as cutting people off.
There are divisions, there are polarizations, and so often the quiet work of
connectedness and what that really means can get lost. Many of you are recovering
from relationships that have left you feeling anxious, diminished, or quietly doubting
your own perceptions or your own sense of self. Some of you are carrying questions
like, why do I keep ending up in relationships that drain me? How do I stay open
to people? I want to be open to other people, but I'm afraid. I don't want to
lose myself again. I don't want to get hurt again. How do I know what's actually
safe or good or true? Because people are imperfect. I want to be gracious. And also
I want to know what actual safety really is. And at the heart of these questions
is attention where rare taught to hold. And that's connection and discernment.
It's two different things, connection and discernment. And this is an ongoing
practice. It's not one and done. It's not, this is a safe person. I never have to
think about them again, right? We know that's not true, especially in marriage,
especially with our kids, even in our closest relationships. Connection always comes
hand in hand with discernment. Even with the people we love most, it's never static.
We're always holding both. Without discernment, connection can become unsafe.
Without connection, discernment can harden into isolation. A formed life,
a deeply formed life, emotionally and spiritually, always requires both. And that's
what we're going to explore in today's episode. So why is discernment so hard for
so many of us? One of the reasons discernment is so difficult, number one, is that
it's rarely taught, right? We're rarely taught this skill of staying open, staying
discerning, this both and, right? We're taught to love others or we're taught to
protect yourself. We're never taught that the two often live side by side, right?
There's an art to this. Also, many of you listening are deeply relational,
deeply empathetic, caring, sincere people. And so you were taught, whether explicitly
or implicitly, to always give the benefit of the doubt,
endlessly, to always be patient, accommodating and understanding, to prioritize harmony
and service over clarity and wisdom. And this is not a bad thing,
right? I don't want you to change that aspect of who you are. I'm working on this
myself, right? I have to always hold both of these things in tension. We want to
be loving people. We want to be gracious. We want to be open to others. Many of
us learned that being loving meant tolerating discomfort or minimizing harm.
questioning someone's impact on our souls meant being critical or judgmental, that
setting limits meant being unkind. And if you grew up in environments where emotional
needs were dismissed or spiritualized or overridden, discernment may never have been
modeled for you, right? You didn't see a parent or an adult modeling wise
discernment, pulling back when there was harm or setting a boundary when it was
needed. We didn't see that happening, many of us in our homes, and so we just
didn't learn in our muscle memory what that looks like to be a kind person, to be
a loving person, and also to have wise, healthy boundaries around us. Add trauma to
the picture and discernment becomes even more complicated. Trauma can teach us to
confuse intensity with intimacy, familiarity with someone with safety,
chemistry. with trust right it can pull us toward what feels known rather than what
is actually good for us
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Think about someone you trust, a friend, a spouse, your own kids. You trust that
their intentions are good, but you don't turn your discernment off. You're still
noticing, paying attention, checking in. Discernment in a healthy relationship doesn't
sound like suspicion. It sounds like curiosity, like care. It sounds like I noticed
something seems off with you. You seem more weary or run down lately. You've felt a
little distant, so I just wanted to check in. That's not mistrust. That's pressure.
staying present to the ones you love. Discernment isn't about assuming the worst.
It's about staying connected to reality, inside yourself and between you and another
person. So one kind of discernment is just the everyday attentiveness inside a
relationship that's already safe, that we already trust, but it's what keeps that
relationship going. It's what keeps that relationship safe over time. Other times,
discernment is doing something a little bit different. Sometimes it's when you're not
sure when someone is. actually trustworthy, when the relationship feels confusing,
inconsistent, or even a little bit destabilizing. And this is where many of us get
stuck, especially those of us who are, again, empathetic and sincere. We want to
assume the best. We want to focus on intentions. We want to give one more chance.
But Jesus gives us a really practical way to discern trust in the big picture of
things. Jesus tells us that we recognize people not by their words, not by their
intentions, not by their spiritual language, but by their fruit, right? That's
important because Jesus doesn't say by how convincing they sound, by how sincere they
appear, by how charismatic or how popular they are. He says we'll know them by
their fruit. He says, look at what their life produces over time. And this is where
discernment often gets misunderstood. Fruit isn't about perfection. Everyone ruptures,
everyone misses the mark, everyone causes harm at times. The question isn't, do they
ever fail? The question is, what happens next? Healthy fruit includes the capacity
for rupture and repair, humility when confronted, accountability without collapse,
honesty. about limitations and growth over time. Discernment isn't about asking,
is this person flawless? Does this person always make me feel amazing? That's not
realistic. Discernment is asking what consistently grows in my life when I'm in
relationship with this other person. Do I feel clearer, more like the best version
of myself? Or do I feel more confused? Do I feel more grounded in general over
time? Or do I feel increasingly anxious? Do I feel more like myself? and wanting to
strive to be a better version of myself, or do I feel smaller or diminished? Fruit
shows up in ordinary moments, in the grocery store lines, in private conversations,
in how frustration or disappointment is handled, in whether repair is possible, or
whether you feel deceived or manipulated, right? Where you don't feel like someone's
being honest with you. Over time, do you feel safer, or do you... begin to doubt
yourself. This isn't a judgment on the other person. This is an observation about
impact on your own soul. And this is where Jesus steps in and invites us not to
condemn other people, but to tell the truth about patterns. What is the fruit that
this relationship bears in my life? It's primarily an account for my own soul. Am I
becoming more like the person I want to be here? Or am I becoming increasingly
anxious, diminished, stressed out, clinging, avoidant? Whatever the things are that you
notice, you notice that first and foremost within your own soul. Because again,
it might be a statement about the other person. But what you can notice for sure
when you're discerning is the fruit it's bearing within you. one of the reasons
discernment gets overridden is because we're taught to treat it as a purely cognitive
exercise we get in our heads about it right we override what our nervous systems
are telling us but discernment is embodied your nervous system is constantly tracking
safety predictability congruence character integrity long before your mind has language
for it your body is registering data this doesn't mean every uncomfortable sensation
is a red flag growth can be uncomfortable conflict, can be activating, repair,
takes effort. We have all of the data from our past that's influencing our nervous
systems perceived danger. Remember what I said at the beginning, our nervous systems
can sometimes register what is familiar as safe when what is familiar is actually
not healthy for us. It's just familiar. We recognize it from our past, right? So we
have to be careful when we're paying attention to the cues our body is giving us.
And again, we're always assessing what's happening in our own soul. We might always
say, even if we say, I don't think this other person is doing something wrong
necessarily, but what I know is it's activating my nervous system. And so I've got
to go on a journey to discern that, to figure that out. Why is that? How do I
match the facts of the situation, the data with what my nervous system is
registering? That's not getting up in my head about it. That's saying I'm aware of
two things simultaneously. My nervous system is activated here. That's just a fact.
anxious I feel disconnected I feel distant whatever the feeling is in the nervous
system I'm not sure yet what the facts and the data are that tell me what maybe
this person is actually being the best they can be they're not doing anything wrong
but however they are doesn't doesn't feel good to me and so I need to just pivot
and move in a different direction or maybe my nervous system is registering something
that's really unsafe maybe this person is really mistreating me and I need to Pay
attention to that because then I'm going to behave differently. And this is a lot
of what I was trying to teach you in my book, I Shouldn't Feel This Way, where we
have the name, frame, brave model. That framing model is that really important middle
step of discernment. It's saying I notice something. Naming is saying I notice
something in my nervous system. I'm naming it. And then you take that step of
framing to try to understand what are the facts? What's my past that might be?
influencing my present? What belongs to me? And what do I think belongs to this
other person? You do that framing step often inside your own soul before you even
take action with the other person. And that's that braving step, right? That's why
that framing step of the name, frame, brave model in I Shouldn't Feel This Way is
so important. It's the discernment step. It's the step we often want to skip over.
We want to get to the solution. We want to fix the problem. We want to have the
conversation. We want to set the boundary. taking time to go, what does this
actually mean? But that framing step means paying attention to the signals your
nervous system is giving you. Discernment is the capacity to stay present to what
consistently happens inside you around this other person without rushing to explain it
away, to act on it, to fix it, to solve it, to make a judgment, right? It's
staying present to what's confusing, what's unclear. That's actually what discernment
is. It sounds like I notice I feel uneasy. edge after spending time with them. I
notice I second guess myself more. I notice I feel smaller, quieter, less clear.
I wonder what that's about, right? That information is important and we need to
discern what's happening here. This is how growth happens is in this discernment
phase. And scripture never asks us to override those signals in the name of love.
Discernment isn't avoidance. It's also not rushing to fight, to fix, right? It's
grounded. awareness. It's staying present to what feels confusing,
and it's essential to maintaining healthy relationships over the long haul. One of
the hardest truths to accept is that discernment doesn't always lead to deeper
connection. It doesn't always lead to the nice bow -tied resolution that we long for.
Sometimes it leads to clarity, right? We get really clear that this person is really
trustworthy. I'm so glad I had this conversation with them. Sometimes it leads to
distance. Clarify that this isn't a relationship that's going to go deeper in a way
you maybe wished it would have. Sometimes it leads to grief. Like, oh my gosh,
this isn't what I thought it was. Right? And that's not punishment. That's not
rejection. That's not judgment. That's aligning your soul with the reality of what is
true. Distance isn't punishment. Boundaries aren't rejection. And stepping back isn't a
failure to love. Even Jesus didn't entrust himself to every single person. Jesus
showed healthy boundaries. He understood what he needed and he understood his mission
and his higher purpose. Discernment allows us to recognize when a relationship,
however meaningful to us, doesn't bear good fruit in its current form. And again,
that doesn't mean you're critical, judgmental, or unloving. It means you're honest. It
means you're wise. And that is the essential need for real love. You can love
someone and recognize this relationship isn't healthy in its current state because
you're loving that person enough to say, we need to shift. I need to shift. I need
to move in a different direction. And we'll see what happens. I'm not God. I can't
control the outcome. But what I can do is take steps to move toward good fruit,
health, wisdom in a loving way that honors the other person in the sense that it
also is an invitation for them to figure out where their soul needs to shift, where
their soul needs to grow. This is where maturity lives. Emotional maturity lives in
this tension between openness and clarity. Connection without discernment leads to self
-abandonment. Discernment without connection can lead to isolation and just no
relationships at all. A formed life, a deeply formed life holds both.
open and anchored, compassionate and truthful, present and boundaried. This is slow
work. This isn't quick fix, memeable, you know, shareable work. This is the slow day
-to -day work of learning to stay with yourself even as you stay present to other
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As we close today, I want to offer you some words from the framing chapter, and I
shouldn't feel this way. I love this quote from the poet Rilke, who says, framing
is a time to be, quote unquote, patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart
and try to love the questions themselves. This place of discernment is a place where
you ask. questions. Sometimes questions you can't answer right away. It's a place
where you connect with the gentle whisper of God's spirit. And when you move into
the work of framing a challenging relationship or situation, you're trying to unearth
some of the following things. What is the actual problem here? It could be so many
different things. It could be that the other person is behaving in a toxic matter.
It could be that you're behaving in a toxic matter, right? It could be that your
own patterns are getting in the way. It could be that the dynamic between the two
of you is toxic, right? Where you're not bringing out the best of each other and
you need to disentangle that, which is actually going to be better for both of you,
right? So often, if you look on social media, it's sort of like they are the
problem or you know, often inside our own souls, we blame ourselves. I am the
problem. When a lot of times there's a dynamic at play that isn't quite healthy and
God is in the business of healing. He's in the business of getting in the weeds
and rooting out those things to bring health, right? So we want to be discerning
what is the actual problem here? What's my part in it? What is not my part in it?
What is absolutely not my part in it? What are the obstacles that are real? It
could be long distance. It could be. communication styles. It could be that the
other person is going through something in their lives and they just can't be
available in the way that I would like, right? We need to look at the realities
and the obstacles. What has to be faced that can't be changed, right?
What can't be changed? is what it is, as they say, what are the resources available
to me? This is all part of framing, right? It's all part of staying with the
questions themselves. And I give you an acronym, and I shouldn't feel this way,
that's called FRAME, right? Because this is the framing step. This is that... in
between where we've named something, something isn't working here. Something doesn't
feel right. My nervous system is stirred up in this relationship or in this specific
situation, right? Braving is that third step of I'm going to do something about it,
right? I'm either going to speak up, I'm going to set a boundary, I'm going to
initiate a conversation, I'm going to get out of the relationship. That's the
braving. We want to get there. But this framing step is all about this discernment
and it's so crucial. So here's the acronym. You can get it for free.
We'll link to the show notes how you can get this acronym for free. But it's
something you can work through in your time alone when you are reflecting, taking a
walk, when you take the music or the podcast out of your ear and you're kind of
paying attention, you're attuning to what's going on in your own soul prayerfully
with God's Spirit. The F in frame is facts. What are the different facts of the
situation to help you gain objectivity? And sometimes this is just so clarifying to
lay it out. What are the facts? You know, this person is working really hard right
now. A lot of pressure is being put on this person in other contexts so they can't
be available for me. Or this person lives far away and we just can't see each
other enough. And so that's... stress or pressure on the relationship. These are
examples of facts, right? That are just facts. They're just realities. The R is for
roots, right? What are the deeper things going on there? What are my own attachment
wounds from the past that might be coming into the present relationship? It doesn't
mean they're wrong. It's just helpful to name them. You know, I'm someone who, when
I don't hear back from someone over text for a couple of days, I... abandoned,
is a part of that from my own past, right? And I know this person, I know
sometimes they're just slow to respond, but that's hard for me, right? That's holding
two things together, right? I don't think this person is being a jerk, but that's
hard for me because this is something I've dealt with in the past. So how do I
hold those two things at once, right? So roots is what we bring in, right, from
our past that we need to be honest about and aware of. And then A in frame is an
audit, right? review strategies you've tried in the past when I feel this way,
right? Am I the one that always pursues, right? I always initiate the conversation
and how has that gone for me? Or am I the person that has always tended to avoid
and how has that gone for me, right? You're kind of auditing. What have I tried in
the past when I felt this way? What's worked and what? hasn't worked and again
you're just taking inventory inside your own soul this is all toward discernment and
then m are the messages what are the messages i'm telling myself this is crucial
because so often when we're in that confusing space of discernment we're guilt
tripping ourselves we're shaming ourselves what's wrong with me why can't i just
figure this out why can't i just leave why can't i just be braver or we're or why
can't i just not care right we're so often giving ourselves messages that don't
really help. And so when you look at your messages, just take a minute to notice
them. This is what I'm telling myself and see if you can get some space from those
messages. To just look at the facts of the situation. Shaming yourself, guilt
-tripping yourself, belittling yourself, criticizing yourself doesn't work. It doesn't
lead to healthy discernment. And then lastly, the E in frame is to expand.
Expand your understanding through research, through expert opinions, through listening
to this podcast, right? Or maybe bringing in a trusted friend to say, hey, here's
what's going on. I'm confused. Can you help me kind of... Get the big picture here.
You know, you know this other person. Again, you're not gossiping. You're not
venting. You're not triangulating. These are real trusted people when you pull them
in, right? Because you're saying, I hear the truths as I see them. Do you see them
similarly? Am I missing something, right? You're trying to expand your knowledge, not
to vent again, not to gossip, but to gain greater clarity, right?
That's the difference. You're trying to gain greater clarity so that you can see the
situation more clearly because we all have blind spots. We all have blind spots when
it comes to challenging relationships. And I just want to close with this story I
share and I shouldn't feel this way. And it's kind of a silly story, but it really
illustrates why this discernment is so important. Imagine you live in a house with
someone. It could be a roommate. It could be you're a newlywed. It could be even
one of your kids, right? You've got a roommate and you keep coming home day after
day after day after work or whatever. And you come in and the kitchen's a mess and
they've used all your stuff and they've been in your space and you're just... know,
you're just like, my nervous system is like, I can't do this. This isn't okay,
right? So right there, we could immediately place a judgment. What a jerk this other
person is, right? What a jerk, right? That could be an easy judgment to place. When
I look at that situation, what I've learned from years of hearing stories like this
is there's usually three things going on. One of three things. And we won't know
which one it is until we do this work of discernment, this work of framing, right?
Option one is it's two people who've never communicated. One person, this is how
they live. It doesn't bother them. You could be in their space. You could be trash
in their room. They wouldn't care. They don't know because you've never told them
you don't like this. This doesn't work. you so that's option one is you haven't
figured out how to say this isn't working for me I need to have a conversation
about this I need something to be different will you come alongside me that's option
one option two is you've tried repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly to say this isn't
working for me I can't do it this way and they're just overruling you. They don't
care. They might be giving you lip service, but they keep doing the behaviors. They
might even be gaslighting you. You're crazy. Why does this bother you? You're too
sensitive, right? That's toxic, right? That's toxic. But we don't know that until
we... Go deeper into framing. Option three is there's a variable that you don't have
control over, right? Maybe there's something going on with this other person in their
life where they really do mean well, but they're not keeping it together very well.
Maybe there's a diagnosis. Maybe it's a child who's going through a season where
they're just having a hard time holding it together, right? And so there's a third
path through that. There's a negotiation. that is needed that accounts for an outside
variable, right? They can't trash your stuff. They can't use your space. But maybe
they do need a space where they can be really messy, right, in this situation. And
so I talk about it and I shouldn't feel this way as often there's these three
options. One is I need to leave the situation because it's toxic. Two is I need to
fight for change because I haven't used my voice. I haven't spoken up. And I don't
think this person is a bad person, but I need to say, hey, this isn't working for
me. and see what happens. And then that third option that's trickier and more
complicated, but often the reality for some situations is I've got to figure out how
to suffer it wisely, meaning I can't get exactly what I need met here,
but I can put other kind of boundaries and other parameters in place that are
enough, where I can stay in relationship with this person, honoring what's hard for
them right now. And I can also equip myself in other ways so that I can stay
healthy in this moment. It's not ideal, but I can suffer it wisely, right?
Those are those three options. It is so crucial to work through this discernment.
So that we don't impose an option onto that situation that isn't the right fit.
So as we close today, I want to just ask you to sit with this challenging
situation that you might be experiencing in a relationship right now. You know, where
do you need to speak up? Where do you need to sit with something that's not quite
right, but you don't yet understand why, right? And you don't wanna jeopardize
something without fully understanding what's happening. And where do you need to
figure out the reality that this is the best it can be? And therefore I have to
work to support myself in other ways and reduce my expectations. of this person,
right? This is the heart of discernment where we stay connected to what we want and
also connected to reality. And here's the biggest thing. You don't have to decide
everything right away, right? A big part of discernment and connection is growing
that tolerance for that in -between place. Awareness is the beginning of freedom and
learning to sit with it even in the discomfort is what will eventually lead to far
wiser, braver decision -making. Today, may you grow in the wisdom to stay open to
others without losing yourself. May you learn to trust the patterns over time,
over words and promises. And may your relationships be shaped by honesty,
clarity, and love. And may you become increasingly rooted in what bears good fruit
over time. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It
would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple,
Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to or watch podcasts and click the plus or
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And be sure to join us each weekday for The Best of You Every Day, a brief daily
reflection to help you start your mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember,
as you become the best of who you are, You honor God, you heal others, and you
stay true to your God -given self.
Episode Shownotes
Connection matters deeply — and yet for many of us, it’s never felt more confusing.
In this solo episode, Dr. Alison Cook explores a quiet tension many people are navigating right now: how to stay open and loving toward others without losing clarity, discernment, or yourself.
Many of us were taught that love means endless accommodation, that boundaries are unkind, or that distance equals failure. Others, weary of being hurt, find themselves pulling back — unsure how to stay connected without feeling drained or unsafe.
This episode sits right in the middle of that tension.
Rather than offering formulas or quick fixes, Dr. Alison invites listeners to slow down and notice what’s happening beneath the surface of relationships — especially the ones that feel confusing, heavy, or hard to interpret.
If you’ve found yourself asking:
- How do I stay loving without losing myself?
- How do I know when to lean in — and when to pause?
- What does wisdom look like in real, imperfect relationships?
This conversation creates space to reflect without pressure to decide everything right away.
Sometimes awareness is the first step toward freedom.
More Resources:
📥 Download 3 free chapters + guided journal of I Shouldn’t Feel This Way and the FRAME exercise here.
If you liked this episode, then you’ll love the following:
Episode 191: The 5 Most Important Things I've Learned About Faith, Attachment, & The Inner Life
Episode 179: Building Wise Trust - How to Protect Your Heart Without Closing it Off
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.
Don't forget to browse this week's sponsors, who makes it possible for me to bring you these resources for free + provide you with additional discounts!
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*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.
While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.
TRANSCRIPT
We're living in a moment in a season where connection is deeply longed for and
needed and yet can be really confusing. We hear things about sort of setting
boundaries as cutting people off. There are divisions, there are polarizations, and so
often the quiet work of connectedness and what that really means can get lost.
Without discernment, connection can become unsafe. Without connection, discernment can
harden into isolation. A formed life, a deeply formed life emotionally and spiritually
always requires both. And that's what we're going to explore in today's episode.
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm Dr.
Allison, and I'm so glad you're here with us this week. If you're new here, I'm so
glad you found your way. podcast is a space where we come together each week
faithfully for thoughtful conversations about inner formation, the slow,
often unseen work where emotional healing meets spiritual growth, right?
We bring together the emotional, the mental health, and the spiritual health in one
integrated place. We draw on attachment theory, parts work, scripture,
and lived experience to explore what it actually means to form a secure, the vibrant
inner life with God. This isn't a performative faith. This isn't a place for quick
fixes. This isn't a place where we spiritualize everything. This is a way of living
that is increasingly marked by safety, discernment, wisdom,
and grounded love, all the way from the inside out into our relationships with other
people. If you're joining us on YouTube, you might notice we're in a different space
today. I'm in Boston this week, where my family continues to spend a little bit of
our time each year. And it feels really fitting to be here in Boston as we talk
about place, presence, and connection. There's something grounding about New England
for my New England listeners, especially in the middle of winter. And it's not only
because of the Patriots, and that's my apologies to the rest of the country if
you're sick of the Patriots. But because of the way life settles in here,
even when it's cold outside, there's a rooted feeling here, a historical feeling
here. The trees are tall. The roots go deep. You have a sense of the history of
where we've come from in this place. And that's one of the reasons I love kind of
hunkering down here, even for a few weeks in the middle of winter. If you're
listening today, chances are you're someone who wants to grow. You want to heal.
You've been noticing some painful patterns. You want to love others, but not at the
cost of yourself any longer. You care deeply about relationships.
You want to stay open, loving, and faithful. And at the same time, you may be
realizing that being good or responsible or kind or the listening ear has sometimes
come with a quiet cost to your own clarity, peace, or sense of self. This podcast
exists for people who are asking these questions right now. Questions like, what does
wisdom? actually look like intense cultural moments? How do I stay connected to
myself without self -abandonment? How do I listen for God's voice, not just outside
of me, not just through other people, but within my own spirit? There's never been
a time where wisdom and discernment is more necessary when we're just flooded with
so much noise from all different kinds of people all around us, from social media,
from the news, from media, from our friends, from even people in our community.
Hopefully we're surrounded with wise voices with wisdom and discerning eyes and ears
but we also have to learn how to be discerning within our own selves Last month,
I spent some time talking with you about the deepest lessons I've learned about
formation and growth, what shapes us over time and how interchange really happens.
And moving forward, I want to be intentional about having some of these sort of
cornerstone conversations, these four core areas of growth we return to again and
again on the podcast because they show up in every season of the spiritual and
emotional life. As I've done this work and as I've been synthesizing so many ideas
these past few years on the podcast, I've identified four sort of cornerstone areas
that we do continue to return to time and again from different angles. These are
sort of the key areas of growth. First is safety and healing, where we learn to
feel anchored in our inner being. This is where we focus on nervous system repair,
trauma -informed healing, and the slow work of regulation, resilience, and integration.
Number two is connection and discernment. This is our topic today. we learn how to
stay open to others without losing ourselves. This is where we talk about relational
clarity, secure attachment, boundaries, mutuality, and repair when things rupture.
And then we get into hope, joy, and delight, rediscovering aliveness, not just
survival. This is where we practice what it means to thrive, not just survive.
We look for wonder, meaning, savoring, and the return of vitality,
beauty, and play. And then the last one is formation and growth. This is the slow,
often unseen daily work where we tend to our souls regularly because life is always
throwing things at us in the present moment every single day whether it's your kids
your spouse or friends something going on in the world around you right even after
we've healed there's still ongoing work of healing we've never fully arrived and so
this is where we name the patterns that have shaped us in the past and also are
aware of what's shaping us in the present so that we continue to move forward in
life with increasing clarity and wisdom and always grounded in a deeper and deeper
understanding and rest in God's love Over the coming months, I'm going to be sharing
a couple of longer solo episodes that take a deeper dive into one of these areas,
each one grounded in psychology, especially as it relates to attachment theory and
parts work and shaped by a spiritually formed imagination. And today we're going to
begin with connection and discernment, because this may be one of the most important
and most misunderstood skills of emotional and spiritual maturity. And we're living in
a moment in a season where connection is deeply longed for and needed and yet can
be really confusing. Many of us are aching for belonging, intimacy, and a sense of
meaningful community. And at the same time, there are so many mixed messages all
around us. We hear things about sort of setting boundaries as cutting people off.
There are divisions, there are polarizations, and so often the quiet work of
connectedness and what that really means can get lost. Many of you are recovering
from relationships that have left you feeling anxious, diminished, or quietly doubting
your own perceptions or your own sense of self. Some of you are carrying questions
like, why do I keep ending up in relationships that drain me? How do I stay open
to people? I want to be open to other people, but I'm afraid. I don't want to
lose myself again. I don't want to get hurt again. How do I know what's actually
safe or good or true? Because people are imperfect. I want to be gracious. And also
I want to know what actual safety really is. And at the heart of these questions
is attention where rare taught to hold. And that's connection and discernment.
It's two different things, connection and discernment. And this is an ongoing
practice. It's not one and done. It's not, this is a safe person. I never have to
think about them again, right? We know that's not true, especially in marriage,
especially with our kids, even in our closest relationships. Connection always comes
hand in hand with discernment. Even with the people we love most, it's never static.
We're always holding both. Without discernment, connection can become unsafe.
Without connection, discernment can harden into isolation. A formed life,
a deeply formed life, emotionally and spiritually, always requires both. And that's
what we're going to explore in today's episode. So why is discernment so hard for
so many of us? One of the reasons discernment is so difficult, number one, is that
it's rarely taught, right? We're rarely taught this skill of staying open, staying
discerning, this both and, right? We're taught to love others or we're taught to
protect yourself. We're never taught that the two often live side by side, right?
There's an art to this. Also, many of you listening are deeply relational,
deeply empathetic, caring, sincere people. And so you were taught, whether explicitly
or implicitly, to always give the benefit of the doubt,
endlessly, to always be patient, accommodating and understanding, to prioritize harmony
and service over clarity and wisdom. And this is not a bad thing,
right? I don't want you to change that aspect of who you are. I'm working on this
myself, right? I have to always hold both of these things in tension. We want to
be loving people. We want to be gracious. We want to be open to others. Many of
us learned that being loving meant tolerating discomfort or minimizing harm.
questioning someone's impact on our souls meant being critical or judgmental, that
setting limits meant being unkind. And if you grew up in environments where emotional
needs were dismissed or spiritualized or overridden, discernment may never have been
modeled for you, right? You didn't see a parent or an adult modeling wise
discernment, pulling back when there was harm or setting a boundary when it was
needed. We didn't see that happening, many of us in our homes, and so we just
didn't learn in our muscle memory what that looks like to be a kind person, to be
a loving person, and also to have wise, healthy boundaries around us. Add trauma to
the picture and discernment becomes even more complicated. Trauma can teach us to
confuse intensity with intimacy, familiarity with someone with safety,
chemistry. with trust right it can pull us toward what feels known rather than what
is actually good for us
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Think about someone you trust, a friend, a spouse, your own kids. You trust that
their intentions are good, but you don't turn your discernment off. You're still
noticing, paying attention, checking in. Discernment in a healthy relationship doesn't
sound like suspicion. It sounds like curiosity, like care. It sounds like I noticed
something seems off with you. You seem more weary or run down lately. You've felt a
little distant, so I just wanted to check in. That's not mistrust. That's pressure.
staying present to the ones you love. Discernment isn't about assuming the worst.
It's about staying connected to reality, inside yourself and between you and another
person. So one kind of discernment is just the everyday attentiveness inside a
relationship that's already safe, that we already trust, but it's what keeps that
relationship going. It's what keeps that relationship safe over time. Other times,
discernment is doing something a little bit different. Sometimes it's when you're not
sure when someone is. actually trustworthy, when the relationship feels confusing,
inconsistent, or even a little bit destabilizing. And this is where many of us get
stuck, especially those of us who are, again, empathetic and sincere. We want to
assume the best. We want to focus on intentions. We want to give one more chance.
But Jesus gives us a really practical way to discern trust in the big picture of
things. Jesus tells us that we recognize people not by their words, not by their
intentions, not by their spiritual language, but by their fruit, right? That's
important because Jesus doesn't say by how convincing they sound, by how sincere they
appear, by how charismatic or how popular they are. He says we'll know them by
their fruit. He says, look at what their life produces over time. And this is where
discernment often gets misunderstood. Fruit isn't about perfection. Everyone ruptures,
everyone misses the mark, everyone causes harm at times. The question isn't, do they
ever fail? The question is, what happens next? Healthy fruit includes the capacity
for rupture and repair, humility when confronted, accountability without collapse,
honesty. about limitations and growth over time. Discernment isn't about asking,
is this person flawless? Does this person always make me feel amazing? That's not
realistic. Discernment is asking what consistently grows in my life when I'm in
relationship with this other person. Do I feel clearer, more like the best version
of myself? Or do I feel more confused? Do I feel more grounded in general over
time? Or do I feel increasingly anxious? Do I feel more like myself? and wanting to
strive to be a better version of myself, or do I feel smaller or diminished? Fruit
shows up in ordinary moments, in the grocery store lines, in private conversations,
in how frustration or disappointment is handled, in whether repair is possible, or
whether you feel deceived or manipulated, right? Where you don't feel like someone's
being honest with you. Over time, do you feel safer, or do you... begin to doubt
yourself. This isn't a judgment on the other person. This is an observation about
impact on your own soul. And this is where Jesus steps in and invites us not to
condemn other people, but to tell the truth about patterns. What is the fruit that
this relationship bears in my life? It's primarily an account for my own soul. Am I
becoming more like the person I want to be here? Or am I becoming increasingly
anxious, diminished, stressed out, clinging, avoidant? Whatever the things are that you
notice, you notice that first and foremost within your own soul. Because again,
it might be a statement about the other person. But what you can notice for sure
when you're discerning is the fruit it's bearing within you. one of the reasons
discernment gets overridden is because we're taught to treat it as a purely cognitive
exercise we get in our heads about it right we override what our nervous systems
are telling us but discernment is embodied your nervous system is constantly tracking
safety predictability congruence character integrity long before your mind has language
for it your body is registering data this doesn't mean every uncomfortable sensation
is a red flag growth can be uncomfortable conflict, can be activating, repair,
takes effort. We have all of the data from our past that's influencing our nervous
systems perceived danger. Remember what I said at the beginning, our nervous systems
can sometimes register what is familiar as safe when what is familiar is actually
not healthy for us. It's just familiar. We recognize it from our past, right? So we
have to be careful when we're paying attention to the cues our body is giving us.
And again, we're always assessing what's happening in our own soul. We might always
say, even if we say, I don't think this other person is doing something wrong
necessarily, but what I know is it's activating my nervous system. And so I've got
to go on a journey to discern that, to figure that out. Why is that? How do I
match the facts of the situation, the data with what my nervous system is
registering? That's not getting up in my head about it. That's saying I'm aware of
two things simultaneously. My nervous system is activated here. That's just a fact.
anxious I feel disconnected I feel distant whatever the feeling is in the nervous
system I'm not sure yet what the facts and the data are that tell me what maybe
this person is actually being the best they can be they're not doing anything wrong
but however they are doesn't doesn't feel good to me and so I need to just pivot
and move in a different direction or maybe my nervous system is registering something
that's really unsafe maybe this person is really mistreating me and I need to Pay
attention to that because then I'm going to behave differently. And this is a lot
of what I was trying to teach you in my book, I Shouldn't Feel This Way, where we
have the name, frame, brave model. That framing model is that really important middle
step of discernment. It's saying I notice something. Naming is saying I notice
something in my nervous system. I'm naming it. And then you take that step of
framing to try to understand what are the facts? What's my past that might be?
influencing my present? What belongs to me? And what do I think belongs to this
other person? You do that framing step often inside your own soul before you even
take action with the other person. And that's that braving step, right? That's why
that framing step of the name, frame, brave model in I Shouldn't Feel This Way is
so important. It's the discernment step. It's the step we often want to skip over.
We want to get to the solution. We want to fix the problem. We want to have the
conversation. We want to set the boundary. taking time to go, what does this
actually mean? But that framing step means paying attention to the signals your
nervous system is giving you. Discernment is the capacity to stay present to what
consistently happens inside you around this other person without rushing to explain it
away, to act on it, to fix it, to solve it, to make a judgment, right? It's
staying present to what's confusing, what's unclear. That's actually what discernment
is. It sounds like I notice I feel uneasy. edge after spending time with them. I
notice I second guess myself more. I notice I feel smaller, quieter, less clear.
I wonder what that's about, right? That information is important and we need to
discern what's happening here. This is how growth happens is in this discernment
phase. And scripture never asks us to override those signals in the name of love.
Discernment isn't avoidance. It's also not rushing to fight, to fix, right? It's
grounded. awareness. It's staying present to what feels confusing,
and it's essential to maintaining healthy relationships over the long haul. One of
the hardest truths to accept is that discernment doesn't always lead to deeper
connection. It doesn't always lead to the nice bow -tied resolution that we long for.
Sometimes it leads to clarity, right? We get really clear that this person is really
trustworthy. I'm so glad I had this conversation with them. Sometimes it leads to
distance. Clarify that this isn't a relationship that's going to go deeper in a way
you maybe wished it would have. Sometimes it leads to grief. Like, oh my gosh,
this isn't what I thought it was. Right? And that's not punishment. That's not
rejection. That's not judgment. That's aligning your soul with the reality of what is
true. Distance isn't punishment. Boundaries aren't rejection. And stepping back isn't a
failure to love. Even Jesus didn't entrust himself to every single person. Jesus
showed healthy boundaries. He understood what he needed and he understood his mission
and his higher purpose. Discernment allows us to recognize when a relationship,
however meaningful to us, doesn't bear good fruit in its current form. And again,
that doesn't mean you're critical, judgmental, or unloving. It means you're honest. It
means you're wise. And that is the essential need for real love. You can love
someone and recognize this relationship isn't healthy in its current state because
you're loving that person enough to say, we need to shift. I need to shift. I need
to move in a different direction. And we'll see what happens. I'm not God. I can't
control the outcome. But what I can do is take steps to move toward good fruit,
health, wisdom in a loving way that honors the other person in the sense that it
also is an invitation for them to figure out where their soul needs to shift, where
their soul needs to grow. This is where maturity lives. Emotional maturity lives in
this tension between openness and clarity. Connection without discernment leads to self
-abandonment. Discernment without connection can lead to isolation and just no
relationships at all. A formed life, a deeply formed life holds both.
open and anchored, compassionate and truthful, present and boundaried. This is slow
work. This isn't quick fix, memeable, you know, shareable work. This is the slow day
-to -day work of learning to stay with yourself even as you stay present to other
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As we close today, I want to offer you some words from the framing chapter, and I
shouldn't feel this way. I love this quote from the poet Rilke, who says, framing
is a time to be, quote unquote, patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart
and try to love the questions themselves. This place of discernment is a place where
you ask. questions. Sometimes questions you can't answer right away. It's a place
where you connect with the gentle whisper of God's spirit. And when you move into
the work of framing a challenging relationship or situation, you're trying to unearth
some of the following things. What is the actual problem here? It could be so many
different things. It could be that the other person is behaving in a toxic matter.
It could be that you're behaving in a toxic matter, right? It could be that your
own patterns are getting in the way. It could be that the dynamic between the two
of you is toxic, right? Where you're not bringing out the best of each other and
you need to disentangle that, which is actually going to be better for both of you,
right? So often, if you look on social media, it's sort of like they are the
problem or you know, often inside our own souls, we blame ourselves. I am the
problem. When a lot of times there's a dynamic at play that isn't quite healthy and
God is in the business of healing. He's in the business of getting in the weeds
and rooting out those things to bring health, right? So we want to be discerning
what is the actual problem here? What's my part in it? What is not my part in it?
What is absolutely not my part in it? What are the obstacles that are real? It
could be long distance. It could be. communication styles. It could be that the
other person is going through something in their lives and they just can't be
available in the way that I would like, right? We need to look at the realities
and the obstacles. What has to be faced that can't be changed, right?
What can't be changed? is what it is, as they say, what are the resources available
to me? This is all part of framing, right? It's all part of staying with the
questions themselves. And I give you an acronym, and I shouldn't feel this way,
that's called FRAME, right? Because this is the framing step. This is that... in
between where we've named something, something isn't working here. Something doesn't
feel right. My nervous system is stirred up in this relationship or in this specific
situation, right? Braving is that third step of I'm going to do something about it,
right? I'm either going to speak up, I'm going to set a boundary, I'm going to
initiate a conversation, I'm going to get out of the relationship. That's the
braving. We want to get there. But this framing step is all about this discernment
and it's so crucial. So here's the acronym. You can get it for free.
We'll link to the show notes how you can get this acronym for free. But it's
something you can work through in your time alone when you are reflecting, taking a
walk, when you take the music or the podcast out of your ear and you're kind of
paying attention, you're attuning to what's going on in your own soul prayerfully
with God's Spirit. The F in frame is facts. What are the different facts of the
situation to help you gain objectivity? And sometimes this is just so clarifying to
lay it out. What are the facts? You know, this person is working really hard right
now. A lot of pressure is being put on this person in other contexts so they can't
be available for me. Or this person lives far away and we just can't see each
other enough. And so that's... stress or pressure on the relationship. These are
examples of facts, right? That are just facts. They're just realities. The R is for
roots, right? What are the deeper things going on there? What are my own attachment
wounds from the past that might be coming into the present relationship? It doesn't
mean they're wrong. It's just helpful to name them. You know, I'm someone who, when
I don't hear back from someone over text for a couple of days, I... abandoned,
is a part of that from my own past, right? And I know this person, I know
sometimes they're just slow to respond, but that's hard for me, right? That's holding
two things together, right? I don't think this person is being a jerk, but that's
hard for me because this is something I've dealt with in the past. So how do I
hold those two things at once, right? So roots is what we bring in, right, from
our past that we need to be honest about and aware of. And then A in frame is an
audit, right? review strategies you've tried in the past when I feel this way,
right? Am I the one that always pursues, right? I always initiate the conversation
and how has that gone for me? Or am I the person that has always tended to avoid
and how has that gone for me, right? You're kind of auditing. What have I tried in
the past when I felt this way? What's worked and what? hasn't worked and again
you're just taking inventory inside your own soul this is all toward discernment and
then m are the messages what are the messages i'm telling myself this is crucial
because so often when we're in that confusing space of discernment we're guilt
tripping ourselves we're shaming ourselves what's wrong with me why can't i just
figure this out why can't i just leave why can't i just be braver or we're or why
can't i just not care right we're so often giving ourselves messages that don't
really help. And so when you look at your messages, just take a minute to notice
them. This is what I'm telling myself and see if you can get some space from those
messages. To just look at the facts of the situation. Shaming yourself, guilt
-tripping yourself, belittling yourself, criticizing yourself doesn't work. It doesn't
lead to healthy discernment. And then lastly, the E in frame is to expand.
Expand your understanding through research, through expert opinions, through listening
to this podcast, right? Or maybe bringing in a trusted friend to say, hey, here's
what's going on. I'm confused. Can you help me kind of... Get the big picture here.
You know, you know this other person. Again, you're not gossiping. You're not
venting. You're not triangulating. These are real trusted people when you pull them
in, right? Because you're saying, I hear the truths as I see them. Do you see them
similarly? Am I missing something, right? You're trying to expand your knowledge, not
to vent again, not to gossip, but to gain greater clarity, right?
That's the difference. You're trying to gain greater clarity so that you can see the
situation more clearly because we all have blind spots. We all have blind spots when
it comes to challenging relationships. And I just want to close with this story I
share and I shouldn't feel this way. And it's kind of a silly story, but it really
illustrates why this discernment is so important. Imagine you live in a house with
someone. It could be a roommate. It could be you're a newlywed. It could be even
one of your kids, right? You've got a roommate and you keep coming home day after
day after day after work or whatever. And you come in and the kitchen's a mess and
they've used all your stuff and they've been in your space and you're just... know,
you're just like, my nervous system is like, I can't do this. This isn't okay,
right? So right there, we could immediately place a judgment. What a jerk this other
person is, right? What a jerk, right? That could be an easy judgment to place. When
I look at that situation, what I've learned from years of hearing stories like this
is there's usually three things going on. One of three things. And we won't know
which one it is until we do this work of discernment, this work of framing, right?
Option one is it's two people who've never communicated. One person, this is how
they live. It doesn't bother them. You could be in their space. You could be trash
in their room. They wouldn't care. They don't know because you've never told them
you don't like this. This doesn't work. you so that's option one is you haven't
figured out how to say this isn't working for me I need to have a conversation
about this I need something to be different will you come alongside me that's option
one option two is you've tried repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly to say this isn't
working for me I can't do it this way and they're just overruling you. They don't
care. They might be giving you lip service, but they keep doing the behaviors. They
might even be gaslighting you. You're crazy. Why does this bother you? You're too
sensitive, right? That's toxic, right? That's toxic. But we don't know that until
we... Go deeper into framing. Option three is there's a variable that you don't have
control over, right? Maybe there's something going on with this other person in their
life where they really do mean well, but they're not keeping it together very well.
Maybe there's a diagnosis. Maybe it's a child who's going through a season where
they're just having a hard time holding it together, right? And so there's a third
path through that. There's a negotiation. that is needed that accounts for an outside
variable, right? They can't trash your stuff. They can't use your space. But maybe
they do need a space where they can be really messy, right, in this situation. And
so I talk about it and I shouldn't feel this way as often there's these three
options. One is I need to leave the situation because it's toxic. Two is I need to
fight for change because I haven't used my voice. I haven't spoken up. And I don't
think this person is a bad person, but I need to say, hey, this isn't working for
me. and see what happens. And then that third option that's trickier and more
complicated, but often the reality for some situations is I've got to figure out how
to suffer it wisely, meaning I can't get exactly what I need met here,
but I can put other kind of boundaries and other parameters in place that are
enough, where I can stay in relationship with this person, honoring what's hard for
them right now. And I can also equip myself in other ways so that I can stay
healthy in this moment. It's not ideal, but I can suffer it wisely, right?
Those are those three options. It is so crucial to work through this discernment.
So that we don't impose an option onto that situation that isn't the right fit.
So as we close today, I want to just ask you to sit with this challenging
situation that you might be experiencing in a relationship right now. You know, where
do you need to speak up? Where do you need to sit with something that's not quite
right, but you don't yet understand why, right? And you don't wanna jeopardize
something without fully understanding what's happening. And where do you need to
figure out the reality that this is the best it can be? And therefore I have to
work to support myself in other ways and reduce my expectations. of this person,
right? This is the heart of discernment where we stay connected to what we want and
also connected to reality. And here's the biggest thing. You don't have to decide
everything right away, right? A big part of discernment and connection is growing
that tolerance for that in -between place. Awareness is the beginning of freedom and
learning to sit with it even in the discomfort is what will eventually lead to far
wiser, braver decision -making. Today, may you grow in the wisdom to stay open to
others without losing yourself. May you learn to trust the patterns over time,
over words and promises. And may your relationships be shaped by honesty,
clarity, and love. And may you become increasingly rooted in what bears good fruit
over time. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It
would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple,
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And be sure to join us each weekday for The Best of You Every Day, a brief daily
reflection to help you start your mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember,
as you become the best of who you are, You honor God, you heal others, and you
stay true to your God -given self.
Have you ever left a conversation thinking, That’s not what I meant — and still felt the distance linger?
Do you ever wonder why relationships feel exhausting, confusing, or fragile… even when you genuinely care, pray, and try to do the right thing?
Dr. Alison Cook is joined by counselor and author Debra Fileta for a conversation that names a quiet tension many people live with but rarely articulate.
Sometimes the hardest part of relationships isn’t a lack of love — it’s the gap between what we intend and what others experience.
Together, Alison and Debra sit with questions many faithful, thoughtful people ask privately:
- Why do the same relational patterns keep repeating?
- Why does communication break down so quickly under stress?
- Why do good intentions sometimes land as hurt or distant?
- Why does love feel like it should be enough… but often isn’t?
Anchored in the wisdom of James 1 — quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger — this episode explores what often goes unnamed in conversations about faith and relationships, without offering formulas or quick fixes.
If you’ve ever thought, Why does this still feel so hard when I care so much? — this episode creates space to ask better questions, without pressure to already have the answers.
More Resources:
📥 Grab your 3 free Soul Mending resources here
📖 Pre-order Soul Care by Debra Fileta
If you liked this episode, then you’ll love the following:
Episode 179: Building Wise Trust—How to Protect Your Heart Without Closing It Off
Episode 86: Embracing Conflict—Why It's Essential & 4 Simple Ways to Tackle It
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.
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While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.
TRANSCRIPT
It's not a lack of love yeah it's a lack of skill yes like this is a skill set
that you've never learned emotional connection emotional intelligence empathy body
language listening skills well here's where we do learn we learn by default and we
learn what's been modeled to us And oftentimes that's not very helpful or healthy.
And so they want to love their spouse. They want to love other people, but the
love that they have gets convoluted instead of conveyed.
Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm Dr.
Allison, and today's episode is for anyone who has ever thought, I love God, I
genuinely love people, I have good intentions, so why do my relationships still feel
so hard? Or maybe you felt the gap between what you mean to say and how it
actually lands. Because what my guest today names so clearly is this.
Sometimes it's not a lack of love that hinders our relationships. It's a lack of
skill. And I want to anchor that idea in a short passage of scripture that's
deceptively simple, but incredibly practical for everyday relationships. James 1,
19 through 20 says, everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to
become angry because human anger doesn't produce the righteousness that God desires.
And I love how grounded this is. Not try harder to be a better person,
not just have more faith, right? Just be more spiritual. but it's a set of skills
we can actually practice. Being quick to listen. slow to speak, slow to anger.
And if you think about it, that is the heart of relational maturity. It's the
ability to stay present, stay curious, and regulate ourselves long enough to actually
connect, right? Being slow to speak, slow to anger, quick to listen.
The truth is many of us were never taught how to do these things. We were taught
how to be nice, which is not the same thing. is what we're saying here in James.
We were taught how to avoid conflict, also not the same thing, or we were taught
to keep the peace or to win an argument, on the other hand, right, to always go
in, right, for the kill or to shut down. and just step out of relationships
altogether. Debra is a licensed professional counselor, a speaker, and she's the
creator of the relationship resource, True Love Dates, many of you are familiar with.
She's also the host of Talk To Me, the Debra Foleda podcast and on -air counseling
style show. And her brand new book is called People Skills. Your relationships are
only as strong as your skills. And it offers 31 practical skills designed to
strengthen relationships and help you make every... interaction count. It's got some
skills, honestly, that you will be surprised by. You don't even realize these are
skills that we can kind of beat ourselves up for not having, but maybe we've just
never learned them. The book comes out in just 10 days and you can pre -order it
now. She's offering some free bonus gifts. When you pre -order, you can head to the
link in our show notes to grab that link where you can find those bonuses. You
will hear us talk about today why so many high -functioning, otherwise well -intended
people still struggle relationally how technology has quite...
our practice of real life connection and that gets at skills, right? We're not
practicing the skills. Why a meaningful apology is a skill and how repair after
rupture changes everything. We talk about how warmth is often communicated before we
ever say a word and one of Jesus' most underrated relational skill.
If you've been feeling discouraged in your relationships, or if you keep running into
the same conflicts, even with the people you love, this conversation will give you
both language and tools because faith shapes our hearts and skills helps us carry
that love into real life in practical ways. I am so excited to bring you my
conversation with Debra Faleta.
Debra, I'm so thrilled to get to have this conversation with you today on the
podcast. It's so good to be with you. I know. I feel like our paths have crossed
every so often at these events, and I always wish we had more time. Yeah, this
will be like our coffee date. Exactly. It's like coffee and a podcast. I would
love, just as we get started, I love the topic of this new book. You're such a
prolific writer, and you're just always creating such great content. This people
skills, such a great topic. I'll tell you a little bit about I've been thinking
about this idea of skill a lot lately. So I'll circle back to that. But I want to
know what prompted you to tackle this topic right now? What are you seeing in your
practice, in your life that is like this? This is a book that I want to tackle
right now. This is a topic. Yeah, I think a few things. First and foremost,
with my clients, I. hear a lot of people struggling with communication and conflict
and personality differences, whether it's marriage clients or individual clients,
there seems to be a lot of struggle with really good people.
Yeah. You know, like when you zoom out, they're very high functioning.
strong christians they're doing all the right things they're they're successful in so
many different areas of life but they're not successful in relationships and it just
doesn't make sense you know when when you when you look at it like what's going on
here and often these couples specifically or even these individuals are people who i
find to be full of good intention yeah and love they love each other they love
people But what it comes down to over and over again, and I found myself saying
this often to my clients, it's not a lack of love. Yeah. It's a lack of skill.
Yes. Like this is a skill set that you've never learned. Emotional connection,
emotional intelligence, empathy, body language, listening skills.
Some of this stuff has literally not been learned or maybe not been modeled to
them. And so they want to love their spouse. They want to love other people.
But the love that they have gets convoluted instead of conveyed. And I feel like as
Christians, that happens to us on a regular basis, too. It's like we have all this
love and we're supposed to love other people. But somehow that love isn't conveyed
the way we want it to. And we're not sure why. But when you zoom. out,
it really is a deficit in this skill set that we've never been taught. I love the
word. I had an expert on the podcast last month who is a psychiatrist at Harvard,
and I don't even know what his faith background is, but he has this line that
says, he says always, I'm not sure it's always, but even if I'm the one who's
frustrated, right, that if I can change my mindset to go, what if this isn't about
will, it's about skill. Wow. And it's kind of what you're saying. You're saying
sometimes the goodwill is there. Exactly. But it lands really off and it can create
a lot of problems when the skill isn't there. And I think that's really powerful
what you're tapping into. And how are we supposed to have the skill? I think it's
interesting because we think that just because we come to Jesus, just because we're
Christians, all of a sudden we're going to have all of these things and
relationships are going to be the way that they should be. But how come that
doesn't happen? to our cholesterol levels or our blood sugar like why do we assume
that with a snap of a finger we're going to have what we need without really
working for it and taking inventory and training in these areas and then add to
that we live in a culture today where our ability to train is getting less and
less. Like you don't even have to talk to a librarian to go in and get the
research that you need to find the books for a project. Like you just Google it.
You just ask chat GPT. You don't even have to go into a restaurant. You don't even
have to go into a grocery store. You just click a button and it gets delivered to
your front door. And usually I choose the option of leave it at my door so I
don't have to talk to anyone. No interaction. No interaction. So even this generation
is growing up with a lack of practice. They don't even have the opportunity to
practice the skill sets because we don't need to.
And I think it's really having an effect on everything and everyone.
So I want to get into, because you have something like 38...
31. 31 different skills. Skills in the book. I want to get into some of them. But
to piggyback on what you're saying, I've had conversations lately, and you and I
just are speaking the same language, right? This is our bread and butter. It's just
our jam of just these things don't happen magically just because you have faith,
just because you're a good person, just because you have the love, the fruit of the
spirit, wonderful qualities, but there's still a need for skill. And I love that
metaphor, that analogy to our cholesterol doesn't magically improve. because we have
goodwill. We have to work at it. I love that. I was having a conversation recently
with a friend about equipping young people to date. And again,
that's kind of in your arena with relational health of like, that's a skill. It's
hard. It's hard to learn how to ask somebody out. It's hard to learn how to say
no or yes. It's hard. It's really hard. And a lot of us didn't learn it.
So how do we teach our kids? that skill. And then to your point, technology is
making it less and less of something that we practice. I hadn't thought about that,
but that makes a ton of sense. Yeah. When you think about just some of the basic
things that keep a relationship thriving, communication, conversational skills,
there is a skill to having a conversation. There are levels of depth to a
conversation. There's a skill to receiving information and listening. And you may have
that skill and you may not have it. There's a skill to our body language. There's
a skill to empathy. There's a skill set to so many different things that,
you know, I listed out 31, but there's probably thousands that we could actually
think of. And I don't know about you. But I don't remember ever getting taught in
a class or in church or on a Sunday morning or sermon or Sunday school or even in
graduate school. Like maybe we got a little bit in graduate school because,
you know, there's certain classes that you have to take as far as like building
rapport with clients and whatnot. We get a glimpse of it in grad school. You don't
even get it in pre -marriage counseling. It's like, so where are we supposed to
learn? Well, here's where we do learn. We learn by default and we learn what's been
modeled to us. Yes. And oftentimes that's not very helpful or healthy.
A hundred percent. Because so often our parents also hadn't learned. Right. They just
figured out what worked, which may or may not actually. May or may not actually be
helpful. I think that is so true. Even when you were saying that, I thought, gosh.
the simple skill of having a conversation. The other thing that I think happens is
some people have a natural, just like any natural talent. Some people are really
naturally talented. They're fast runners. And so if you're not a fast runner, it's
like, well, I just don't have that. Or what's wrong with me? And it's the same
with the art of communication. You're right. Some people naturally have that. And so
I think even, especially in people of faith, I see a lot of that as well. For
folks for whom it doesn't come naturally, there's no shame to that. It's just a
skill. Exactly. You might have to work a little harder to learn, just like I have
to work a little harder to learn how to run or do something that isn't as natural
for me. Exactly. And even those of us who would say they have the natural skill.
I would say I grew up in a family culture with a lot of warmth and hospitality
and interaction. There's probably a part of that that's in my DNA. But just like
somebody who's a good runner, you still have to train to keep that skill sharp,
active to grow that skill, to make it even better, to use it for productive things.
You know, so even for those who do feel like, oh, it comes naturally to me. Well,
first of all, it doesn't all come naturally. Maybe some parts of it do. But there
are still parts of this skill set. that have to be learned, taught,
trained, and practiced in order for us to... Here's the thing.
What's the point? Why are we even doing this, right? Some would say, well, this is
good for you in business and leadership, and you'll have much more influence on
people, much more of an effect on people, much more success, power. That's great.
But really, my heart for this... is that we could convey God's love the way that
it was intended to be conveyed, that we wouldn't get in the way with all that God
has called us to do because of our lack of people skills, that we wouldn't get in
the way. And even when you think about things like church hurt, when you as a
counselor sit back and peel back the layers, you're like so much of this was just
a lack. of skill on one side or the other and misunderstandings and miscommunication
and not understanding our personal triggers. And it just gets murky.
So whether it's in marriage or ministry or in our everyday life, this is our
opportunity to convey God's love and not convolute it by our inability and our lack
of people skills. Yes. We're so quick to go to... And sometimes there is pathology,
right? Deep pathology. But we're so quick to jump to pathology when a good
percentage of it is we're just missing each other. So let's talk about these skills.
I want to get into some. We're not going to get into all 31, but some of these
essential ones. I picked a couple that I am really curious to talk about. But I
want to start by which ones were most surprising to you?
As you were writing about these, which ones were you like, oh, I needed to learn
that or I was surprised by how important that is or let's start there.
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because so many of them really do work together.
And I think you don't realize how important they are until you're looking at each
one in isolation. um something as simple as body language so simple so basic you
know one thing i asked on instagram is what makes the difference between someone who
comes across as a warm person and someone who comes across as a cold cooler
demeanored person like let's like we all could say we know what that feels like to
interact with someone Somebody who's like a little cooler versus somebody who's really
warm. Well, what makes the difference, right? Like how do you conceptualize that and
help people learn how to gauge their social temperature? And it was interesting just
kind of putting it out there for polls. You know, people, a lot of people said
your, your smile, the way that your eyes are, the way that you're looking,
you know, are your eyes wide open? Are they good eye contact? your arms and the
way that you express your mannerisms with your hands.
But so many people said smile, facial features, smile, facial features, the words
that people say, the tone. And it was just interesting to conceptualize that in a
chapter about your social temperature. What makes some people more warm and others a
little bit more cool and aloof? And they don't even know how they come across. I
think we talk about the idea of assessing your resting face.
And it's funny because, I mean, people don't necessarily realize that when they're
not being intentional, they can look mean. They can have a resting face that doesn't
look welcoming, doesn't look kind. They're not thinking about it. They've never even
put much thought into it. Even without saying a word,
you can come across a certain way without realizing it. So I think that chapter was
really interesting to write and just to see what different people thought warmth
looked like and felt like and how to start to convey that when we're around people.
That's so, and I'm laughing for two reasons. One, for the folks watching the video,
you and I both, we nod, we smile, right? whether it's therapist training you're
right right we both are are and you feel it you feel oh we're we're but those are
skills those are things you learn i wasn't born doing that you know yes and it and
we we project onto people if someone has a more standoffish oh they might not be
mean and that or they might be mean and it's just they don't learn to smile and
nod Yeah, they haven't learned to communicate with the entirety of who they are.
Yeah. You know, and I think it's really important for us to even just take even
just to have awareness. You know, part of this book helps us assess how we come
across. How do you come across when you walk in a room with people that you don't
know in one of the chapters about how you come across? I have you imagine. walking
into a room with 99 other strangers and everybody's dressed the same. So nobody's
dressed differently. Everybody's dressed in the same, we'll say white, white jumpsuit.
And you don't have a way to express yourself as far as like your hair,
your makeup, your clothing, and it's just you. How would you come across? What would
you be like in that room? Would you be the type of person who's trying to find
people and talk and joke and laugh? Would you be the type of person who's sitting
by yourself in the corner, you know, trying to be a wallflower. Hopefully nobody
notices me. What would be your internal thought process? You know,
I hope nobody notices me or I'm a gift to God's earth. And I hope everybody gets
a chance to talk to me. Like what's going on in your mind and what are you
exuding to the people around you and why? Like, let's even just start there.
You know, I'm curious to know what type of person you're like. If you walked into
a room with 99 other strangers, like what, what's your bet? And then I'll tell you
what I think mine is. Okay. I want to hear. Yeah. What's interesting. I'm listening
to you going because the more aware you become, then you can make a conscious
choice. Exactly. Exactly. Because I think Debra, and I wanted to touch on this
because you talk a little bit about people pleasing. I learned how to always be
smiling and, but. Before I understood that almost subconscious response,
I would feel overwhelmed by people. And so it's almost like I've had to teach
myself the skill, the opposite skill of, gosh, if I don't want a lot of attention
or if I would like to sit back, it's okay. And I can actually shift. Not to be
cold, but to not be as inviting with my face or with my body or with my arm
language, you know, with my hand motions. I can shift that. To preserve your energy.
To preserve my energy. That was like, when I learned that, I thought,
oh my goodness. So I do think my natural tendency, and I remember my dad teaching
us, you know, he said, when you're walking down the halls of high school, you know,
I was a little more shy, but just smile. smile at people and when you smile people
and and it just that so that's kind of what I was taught that's what I learned
and it's true that kind of way kind of just makes you appear like a warm and
friendly person and people respond to that and it's almost like I had to learn if
I didn't want to do that tell me a little bit about yeah I love that really
interesting I would say I'm the type of person who would take initiative I'd
probably walk in a room and want to meet a few people. And probably in my younger
years, I would be much more comfortable with meeting everybody. Now that I'm older,
and I have also learned to kind of invest my energy in certain places,
kind of exactly what you were saying. So in that setting, I would probably not want
to be the center of attention, but I would want to find a smaller group, find
something to connect with them on like what do we have in common yeah what do we
all have in common we don't know anything about each other try to find common
ground that would probably be the first thing is just to try to find common ground
and stick to a smaller group versus try to get to know everybody um and and that's
less draining for me as well like i i find for me One of the things that drains
me is having superficial conversations, like a whole lot of them. Maybe that's why I
love being a counselor. It's like you don't have to chit chat for very long in the
superficial and you can just go deep. But you can only go deep with so many people
before it's exhausting. So kind of limiting that to a smaller group. But it's
interesting to see. Like, why would I do that? What would I do and why would I do
that? And do I like that? Do I want to be that kind of person or not? Is that
helpful or does that hurt me or the group? And why?
You know, if you're one of those people that's more shy. Yeah. We unpack shyness a
lot in this book because. I think shyness is actually rooted in a lot of underlying
beliefs that we've never really faced. That maybe I'm not good enough or something's
wrong with me or I don't have anything to offer and everybody else has something
but I don't. Oftentimes with extreme shyness.
There's an insecurity attached to it that hasn't really been faced, an underlying
belief system that needs to be tweaked and has maybe been influenced by trauma.
And so we just say, well, that's my personality. I'm just a shy person, but really
not facing the underlying insecurities and unhealthy belief systems that keep you
stuck. So the more insight you have, exactly what you said earlier. the more we can
shift and do things differently. Well, and even with, I wonder what you think about
this. with shyness especially in like church culture which is so relational or even
in our extroverted culture also even that reframe of oh I I just I I maybe I'm
not the most gregarious person in the room but I like one -on -one my personality is
such that I prefer to go deep with one person once you know that about yourself
you reframe the there's something wrong with me to this is what I like yeah and
this is how I can use the skills To align in a large group to who I really am.
Exactly. This is what I have to offer. Yeah. You know, sometimes people don't
realize that they have something to offer. Yeah. When you walk in that room of 99
other people, you have something to offer. No matter who you are,
no matter what age you are, what culture, what race, what you look like, what your
gender is, you have something to offer those people. And I don't know that we
always believe that. And so we have this apprehension, these insecurities,
because we don't realize that we really do have something to offer. But when you
can really get to that belief, it changes everything with how that comes up to the
surface. I love that. I love that. I was going to ask you about, you have a
little bit on social anxiety, and that seems like a really valuable reframe to walk
into a room with if there's any anxiety there. I have something to offer. Yeah, I
found that so often with people who do have extreme social anxiety. And I talk in
that chapter about how for me, even public speaking used to feel like a huge ordeal
because my mindset was, what am I going to? What are they going to think of me?
Am I going to be able to keep them entertained? Are they going to like it? I was
so focused on what I was receiving from the audience, their approval, their
admiration, rather than what I was there to give. And when you're there to receive,
it's like you're going to be so anxious because your contentment is based on what
you receive or don't receive. But the moment that shifted for me was when I felt
like, you know, God literally spoke to me one day. This is not about what you are
receiving. This is only about what you're giving. You're going to offer something.
And I don't care about what I'm getting in return. So if it's boo.
that's fine. If it's applause, that's fine. I'm not there to receive it. I am there
to just give, to lay it down and then walk away. And that changes everything in
big ways and small, whether it's walking in a room, walking on a stage, walking
into a group of strangers, walking into the grocery store and interacting with the
cashier at Target or wherever you are. It's like, what do I have to offer in this
exchange? And to believe that you do have something to offer because God has given
you something to offer. It just it really does change how you go through life.
I love that. I love that. I would never have thought I see clips of you speaking
online and you look so self -possessed and so self -assured. So I appreciate.
it's just it's so interesting even just hearing you my own right this is also part
of our culture we see people especially online and they seem so and and just to
hear you say oh I had to work at that I'm like yeah it's just part of all of us
has to work at this it's so true like I said earlier we're not born knowing these
things. If anything, we're born with our trauma history. We're born with our wiring.
We're born with the things that we've seen modeled that maybe weren't so healthy.
And we have to like unpack that and start to do it differently. So,
but you know, it's amazing too. The other fun part about this project was, you
know, as you know, in the counseling world and the clinical world and psychology,
like we get to learn a lot of this really fun stuff, right? One of the chapters
about empathy was straight from one of the lessons I learned in graduate school.
And that was just really neat to see how these things that we've learned in our
education play out in everyday life. But the other cool thing was not just the
clinical piece, like it was the biblical stuff. It was really neat to see even just
through Bible verses and the way that Jesus interacted with people. how people skills
were highlighted in scripture. Yes. You know, and how a lack of them hurts you and
hurts others. And so when you really look at scripture through the lens of, okay,
what are some people skills I can pull from this? You learn a lot. And so it was
neat to just have that kind of scattered throughout the book as well. Give me, I
love an example. Give us an example of something that surprised you about the people
skills you saw in Jesus. I think my favorite one was how many questions he asked
versus direct answers. You know, over 300 questions.
He always posed open -ended, intentional questions. Like, I want to learn more.
You know, I want to get to the heart. Like his questions were just so good. And I
think, again, going back to conversationally. Oftentimes we get into an interaction
with someone and we're more focused on what we have to say or share than about
asking good questions and really getting to know the person in front of us. But to
think that if I were in a conversation with Jesus, he would probably have asked me
a lot of questions to draw. Like, who are you? I'm inviting you to share who you
are and to offer some of those things. And I think that is a gift that we really
can give to people is when we're one -on -one to just be able to look them in the
eye, to be able to block out the distractions. Sometimes it's like, well, what am I
going to say next? And we're not even thinking about what's being said in the
moment, but just to really be present and receive from them. And then intentionally
ask questions that show, I'm really interested in getting to know who you are. I
love that.
I want to ask you about, because you talk a little bit in the book about conflict.
Yeah. Because I think conflict resolution is a skill. And when you're talking about
marriage, families, relationships, especially in the church and faith communities that
a lot of us don't have, I certainly wasn't taught it. How do you talk about
navigating conflict in the book and learning?
We see it in Jesus too, right? It's not that there's never conflict, so it's
certainly not. So how do you think about that and teach people about that? Yeah.
Well, there's a couple of different chapters in here that I would say work around
this topic. And the first one would be the one that talks through different levels
of health in relationships, because I really think depending on the level of health
or lack thereof tells me how much I'm going to invest in conflict resolution,
right? So there's healthy relationships. There's difficult relationships there's the
next level which is like toxic relationships yeah and And so depending on the level
is going to depend on my investment. If this is a toxic relationship we're talking
about, there's going to be less investment in conflict resolution versus if it's
healthy to difficult, I'm going to invest more in conflict resolution. So that's just
the first thing I would say about it. It's good. And then secondly, one thing that
I found that was really interesting as I was writing is to identify, first of all,
which type of relationship it is. And then when it's a healthy to difficult
relationship. Conflict resolution is really interesting. And one thing that I think
I've learned about myself as well is that not all apologies are created equal.
And there's a whole chapter about apology because I think how someone apologizes
really matters. And I know that it's, I found that to be true in my own personal
life and even being married for almost 20 years. Finally, over all of these years,
mastering what a proper apology looks like and feels like for us and then teaching
our kids that. And I talk about how, you know, so many times my kids will do
something and they're trying to resolve conflict. They just hurt each other's
feelings. But the apology is so subpar. It's really like a sorry,
not sorry kind of apology. And you learn a lot from watching them try to apologize.
But then sometimes you see yourself in that. It's like sometimes we're not that good
at apologizing. And so in one of the chapters, I unpack conflict resolution in light
of... a substantial meaningful apology and how there's stages to that of taking
ownership of what you did yeah acknowledging how that might have made the other
person feel talking about what you're going to do differently next time not just oh
i'm so sorry let's move on but okay i see the problem i see what i did i see
how you feel and here's how i'm going to do it differently and then Will you
forgive me for that? Like the way that we repair after rupture makes such a
difference in being able to restore the relationship and move forward versus feeling
stuck. Yep. And so I think it's a big deal. I think it's a much bigger deal than
we make it. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, there's a lot of that's a really healthy
there's a and I love that about the book, right? There's different components. First
of all, got to make sure you're trying to negotiate conflict with someone who can
do it with you. Right. Not someone where there's but then there's once you're in
that realm, there's still a lot of skill involved. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting
when you know, you you've probably see this and working with clients and they say,
Well, I did apologize well. Okay. So I'll say, well, tell me how you apologized.
I told her, I'm sorry you felt that way. You know, wait a second.
Let's back up. Is that actually a proper apology? And how do you seek out repair?
Totally. It's a skill set. And it's ongoing, right? I love what you said about
being married for a while. I noticed even recently, I'm quick to apologize in the
sense of there's a pleasing component to me. And you get to that in the book
where. I'll offer the quick, oh, I'm sorry. And sometimes it's meaningless, right?
I'm not actually, you know, it's just, I'm sorry to smooth things over and move on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have to own my part in, oh, that's also, right?
I kind of know how to put the right words on it, but am I really doing the self
-reflection to go, what's the deeper thing? What's the, and marriage really brings
that, you know, I think we could probably reread this book, you know. Every year,
you know, because the skills get deeper and deeper and deeper, right? They go
together with our character too, right? As our character forms. Yeah. And every
season does reveal. Like I always say God is taking us on a journey of revealing
what he wants to heal. Taking us deeper and deeper in our own personal healing.
Because that. overflows into all of our relationships and so many of these skills
end up being rooted in something deeper yes like where is that coming from let's
dig a little bit underneath the surface what are the belief systems that make you
act this way what are the feelings that have that that contribute to you responding
this way what are the deep -seated insecurities and fears what are the traumas what
are the woundings underneath the surface that make us respond this way or feel this
way about rejection, there's a whole chapter about rejection, and just all the
different things that people might think, well, this is just my personality. But is
it really? And in what factors here are things that you can grow,
learn, transform, heal and change? I love it. I want to just as we're winding down,
I want to ask you a question where we're coming up on Valentine's Day. And I'm
thinking of the listener who would love a relationship in which to practice these
skills, but has had a hard time with that, whether in love or friendship, right?
Who feels lonely or discouraged. What's a simple practice or a skill from the book
that they could start right now? Because again,
to your point, the goal is to be in loving,
you know, loving relationships with others. The goal, you know, for the skill isn't
just to gain success or what, you know, all these things, it's to be in embodied
loving relationships that God designed us to have. So what's one skill that you
think someone might be able to practice, even if they're feeling lonely or
discouraged? Yeah, I would say, especially if you're feeling lonely and discouraged,
because loneliness is a signal. You know,
it's a signal. It's your body's way of saying, I want connection.
Just like hunger is your body's way of saying, I need food. Loneliness is a signal
saying, I need connection. And so, especially if you're feeling lonely, the skill set
of intentionality, you know, who can I connect with in an intentional way?
Who can I text? Who can I FaceTime? Who can I? plan a coffee date with?
Who can I invite to my house for dinner? Who can I invite for a lunch date?
Who can I ask to mentor me? Who could I ask on a coffee date and maybe get to
know them a little bit better? Like, what does it look like for us when we're
lonely to respond to the loneliness with intentionality, to reach out my hand rather
than waiting for someone to reach out their hand to me? but to actually be the one
that reaches out my hand because I am feeling lonely. So I'm going to respond to
that in a healthy way. If we don't respond to loneliness in a healthy way, we will
ultimately end up having to feed it in unhealthy ways. We will be much more
susceptible. To toxic, convenient relationships that are not good for us. To
pornography. To alcohol. To just numbing our loneliness rather than saying,
you know what, I'm going to be intentional. What can I do to be intentional and
make a connection? Because my body is telling me that I was made for a connection.
I love that. I love thinking of intentionality as a skill. Yeah. And it absolutely
is. I love that. Look at your texts. Look at your text history. Do you text people
first and check on them? Or are you more of a responder? Like that's even one way
to know. Am I the type of person who normally I reach out to people? Hey, how are
you doing? I was just thinking of you. Hey, I was just praying for you. Hey,
here's a verse to encourage you. Hey, let's go out and grab lunch. Hey, let's get
something on the calendar. Or do you tend to just respond if you don't forget to
people, you know, because. I say people that lean more towards intentionality are the
ones that have more fulfilled, satisfied, content relationships. So just something to
think about even in our basic everyday interactions. Even I could imagine if it's
hard for you to, intentionality would also encompass showing up, kind of researching
your local groups, activities based, and showing up with intention at,
one that is, you might be inclined to bump into people with whom you have things
in common. Absolutely. You know, whether it's a meetup group or a singles group or
a women's group at church or, you know, a pickleball group, whatever it is, but
like, yeah, I'm going to be proactive and show up with intentionality. That's good.
Tell my listeners all the things you're doing. You've got a lot of different
resources for folks. So tell them where they can find you and the new book and all
the things. Yeah. Well, I typically hang out on Instagram. That's the one place
you'll find me answering DMs and just being present in community there.
Everywhere else is, you know. interns and staff and whatnot, but Instagram and my
handle is Deborah Faleta and my website is DeborahFaleta .com.
And there you'll find all the different books I've written. I actually released my
first children's book this past year as well. So that was really fun. You'll find
information about people skills and all the other books I have. And then you'll also
find a link to my podcast, which is called talk to me. It's on air counseling
style. conversations. And I have a team of faith forward counselors for anybody that
needs help in going a little bit deeper in the journey of healing as well. Yeah.
Can you just touch on that for a minute? It's really amazing what you've, is it
almost all local or is there some virtual component to that? Because that's probably
the number one question I field from folks is how do I find a faith forward
counselor? Yeah, it's all online. It's all via Zoom. And it's,
you know, Christian men and women who are trained, but primarily they are Holy
Spirit filled and faith forward and rooted in God's word. And they all have their
training, which really helps to kind of give them that foundation of how to really
help people. But we work with people of all in all different walks of life, whether
it be marriage. work or individual work, personal healing, um, help with trauma,
you know, all the different things that come up, um, where people just want to go
deeper with God on their journey of mental and emotional healing. And it's called
the Deborah Flay to counselors network. Great. And they can find that at the same
link at your website? Yep. DebraFaleta .com. I just love a kindred spirit.
It's so fun to be able to chat with somebody in this world as well. Because it's
not my day -to -day life. As far as my day -to -day conversations are either with
clients or friends or kids or people I'm speaking to. So I just love chatting with
you. Both you and I are so committed. And again, this is kind of a word I've been
thinking about, this idea of skill. So when I saw your book come through, I was
like, that's it. You know, the skills, which is really different. It's a different
category from often what we get, especially in the relational, emotional landscape.
And, you know, that was my story. I had a lot of Bible knowledge, a lot of
theology, and didn't have a lot of skill. And you need it. And so I think I
really appreciate just to the listener, you've got some amazing resources, and I'm
just grateful for all that you're putting into the world. Well, thank you. And thank
you for what you're doing in this space and just helping people heal. Here's to a
year of God taking us all deeper in our healing journey so that he can take us
wider and helping others heal. Beautiful. I love it. Thank you for joining me for
this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you take a
moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen
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are, You honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God -given self.
What does it mean to live out our calling in a world increasingly shaped by technology, efficiency, and automation?
In this episode, Dr. Alison explores the deeper meaning of vocation — not simply as a job or career path, but as the unique way each of us is meant to bring care, creativity, and connection into the world.
Joined by sociologist Dr. Allison Pugh, professor at Johns Hopkins University and author of The Last Human Job, they reflect on what Dr. Pugh calls “connective labor” — the deeply human work of seeing others and allowing ourselves to be seen.
This episode explores:
-Why the most important part of vocation has almost nothing to do with your resume
-The hidden kind of work you’re doing every day
-The small moment that can restore dignity in an instant (and why most of us miss it)
-The tradeoff nobody talks about: when “more efficient” becomes “less human”
-The uncomfortable question technology can’t answer for you — and why it matters right now
-The choice you still have (even in a system that feels unchangeable)
As workplaces change and technologies like AI reshape how we interact, this conversation offers a grounding reminder: while tools may deliver information, they can never replace mutual presence, empathy, and relational connection.
More Resources:
📥 Grab your 3 free Soul Mending resources here
📖 Read The Last Human Job by Dr. Allison Pugh
If you liked this episode, then you’ll love the following:
Episode 171: Why People Pleasing Actually Makes You Feel More Alone
Episode 178: How to Recognize Toxic Tactics and Stop Taking the Bait
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.
Thanks to our Sponsors!
- Quince - Go to Quince.com/bestofyou for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.
While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.
TRANSCRIPT
People cherish these connections or this capacity to be seen and to see others.
And in its absence, especially when it's being kind of limited by technology, people
really yearn for it and notice it. Will that be a moment where people go, no,
actually humanity and connection is what is valuable here. Seeing doesn't work if the
other person doesn't feel seen. While AI can make people feel seen because one side
of it is a machine, you can never have that mutuality.
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm so
glad you're here today. We're talking about something that sits right at the
intersection of spirituality, psychology, and everyday life, our work life.
I like to think of it as vocation, that deep inner sense each of us carries that
our presence in this world matters, that God in his tenderness and creativity crafted
us not simply to do things, but to offer something uniquely ours to the people and
places around us. And right now with all of these new technologies,
there's a lot of uncertainty in the workforce. A lot of people have been laid off.
There's ways in which we're trying to figure out our relationship to work. Some of
us are working from home. We're no longer going to offices. The truth is, Nothing,
not any of this chaos around us can replace the human sense of calling,
the way we are designed to show up in meaningful ways contributing to the world
around us. When I use this word vocation, I'm not just talking about a job title
or a resume line. I'm talking about that deeper sense of calling, the way your life
becomes a channel of care, of creativity, of connection in the world.
For some people that calling shows up in a career. In my family, we have lots of
different conversations about vocation. My daughter is interested in medicine, right?
She's interested in what it means to use her gifts and her natural interests to
comfort and to heal. people who are sick. My son and husband are both in
technology, right? Their minds light up around solving problems and building systems,
and that's part of how they bring a contribution to the world around us. For me,
my vocation has looked like sitting with people in their pain and helping people
like you, my readers, and my listeners reconnect to themselves and to God through
the work of psychology and faith and spiritual formation, right? All of these are
jobs that pay the bills, and that's good. We need those things no matter what we're
doing. One of my favorite jobs of all time was when I waited tables. I loved the
work of waiting on people, not just because it was a job and a paycheck, but
because it was caring for people, right? So these aren't just jobs. They're not
just... paychecks. They're a deeper sense of purpose, of vocation,
of calling. This word vocation, again, is more than a job, a role, or a career
path. Vocation is the deep. inner sense of how your life is meant to contribute
goodness to the world. It transcends job titles, whether you're raising kids,
teaching, whether you're an accountant, whether you're working at the grocery store,
it's your unique way of participating in God's ongoing work of creating,
restoring, nurturing, building, comforting, and blessing. Location shows up in our
gifts and our strengths, and it also shows up in our longings. It shows up in what
energizes you about whatever the work is that you do in your given day. Not
everything will energize you throughout your day, but some things will. That's part
of your calling. It shows up in what you bring to others, what brings meaning, not
just productivity. It shows up in the specific ways God made your presence life
-giving, no matter. what you're doing it includes the work you're paid for and the
work you offer simply because you're you because you care because you're creative
because your presence your wisdom your problem solving your compassion matters to this
world. Vocation is how your life becomes a channel of God's creativity and love to
this world. And it's rooted in our sense of self. Vocation is the imprint of God
in you. Scripture says in Ephesians 2 .10, we are God's workmanship created in Christ
Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. I love this
word workmanship. It means we are God's art crafted with intention created to offer
something from ourselves into the world around us, woven into that design as our
capacity for connection, for showing up in ways no one else can replicate. It's the
way God's love flows through you. And here's why this matters so much.
When we lose connection within our sense of calling, we become burnt out.
We fear loss. We start comparing ourselves to others. We lose that sense of
belonging, that larger sense of our connectedness to the world around us. We can
feel untethered, unmoored, like something inside of us isn't quite operating the way
that we were intended to operate in this world. Vocation,
calling, meaningful work isn't just what we do. It's part of who we are and who
God made us to be, which is why today's conversation felt so important, and I was
so grateful to have it. My guest, Dr. Allison Pugh, is a professor of sociology at
Johns Hopkins University, and she has spent years studying the work that only humans
can do, the work of attunement, of empathy. and connection her latest book is called
the last human job the work of connecting in a disconnected world.
It explores how we as humans are uniquely designed to carry this work of connection
in ways that no technology can ever replace. Her research is rich,
it's helpful and illuminating, and it shows that no matter what you're doing
throughout your day, whatever your work is, whatever pays the bills, whatever you've
given yourself to throughout the day -to -day course of your life, nothing can take
away what you uniquely have to offer to your kids, to your family,
to the community around you. And I cannot wait to share this conversation with you.
Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Allison Pugh.
I'm just so grateful you're here. I really, gosh, this was such a fun episode to
research and just came across your work kind of accidentally. And one of the things
I just want to start off with that I really appreciated about your book,
The Last Human Job, is that it's not just theory. You shadow teachers,
physicians, therapists, spiritual directors, veterinarians, a lot of... listening to
this audience are many therapists listen, people in ministry, spiritual directors.
So lots of folks who I think can relate. Lots of people who are helping others,
right? And you're trying to understand what connection really is. So before we kind
of dive into the technology piece and all of it, what surprised you most as you
spent time inside these professions about... this idea of human attunement. You call
it attunement. We talk about that a lot in the therapy world. I just thought it
was so... that you were looking at that outside of the therapy room and in these
other realms. It really transcends so much of our work life. It really does.
I would say that there were a bunch of surprises, but one of them was how similar
people sounded about their work. across a lot of different occupations and so the
the beginning part of this research was really like a journey of discovery where i
was like this sounds just like the doctors this sounds just like the teachers like
interesting i um the similarities i just kept being struck by the similarities again
and again um and and that's not i mean it's not that i didn't take seriously the
very real differences between say a therapist and I don't know, a soccer coach,
you know, like there's a lot that's different. Yes. But the way they did their
work, especially around the imperative of seeing the other and having the other
person feel seen, that's shared across many very disparate occupations.
I just love that. I never... thought about that but it really is sort of the
essential ingredient no matter what you're doing i think about it when i'm getting
my hair cut right the person the artist who has a skill set i do not have there's
an attunement there there's a relational quality there that transcends so many
different types of occupations you use this beautiful phrase connective labor to
describe Again, this work that only humans can do. What do you mean by connective
labor and why is it so essential to our work life and really all of our lives,
all of our interactions? Yeah. So connective labor is just that, the labor of seeing
the other and having the other person feel seen. And I'm someone who likes to put
names on things, labels on things, because I think without that, we...
Like it's an attention drawing resource to give something a name.
If we don't have a name for it, we don't know what we're protecting or worried
about or what's being threatened or how, etc. And there's a lot of other words out
there like emotional labor, affective labor, emotional intelligence.
But for a variety of reasons, I felt like none of those captured this exactly.
Interesting. And what do you mean? Like what when you're naming it? I love that
you're putting a name on what you were seeing across all of these.
You know, another similar word is attunement. But connective labor is a little
different. So what what is the essence of the quality that you're naming?
What are we? looking for? We know it when we see it or feel it, but what is it
that you were observing? Well, what I think is slightly different from attunement is
it's a kind of, I would call it deep reciprocity. It's a mutual achievement.
And I really want to call attention to that because emotional labor,
emotional intelligence, et cetera, all those kind of live within the seer. And it's
really vital to understand that seeing doesn't work if the other person doesn't feel
seen. So it is a dance between two people and or more.
And that's vital for a lot of reasons.
We'll talk later, I'm sure, about, you know, kind of automation and AI. And while
AI can... people feel seen because one side of it is a machine. You can never have
that mutuality. Right. So let's talk about that mutuality.
So a teacher, a therapist, a spiritual director, a doctor,
I'm intrigued by what you're saying because I think what you're saying is it's not
just the person conveying information. It's the recipient receiving that so that it
becomes Both people are benefiting from that.
Also, the person presumably giving the information. Is that right? Yeah, there's so
much to say about what you just said. The first thing is I would distinguish really
strongly. I draw a bright line between kind of just delivering information and
connecting in this way. I think many... engineers,
administrators, people that don't quite understand this work think that the job of a
physician or a teacher is just to deliver information. And I've actually spoken to
professionals or practitioners who can get frustrated, like, why don't these people
just get the information I'm trying to pass to them that I know from my years of
training, etc. But more people that I spoke to, most of them understood that it's
so much more than that. It's actually the relationship that makes that information
come alive, that makes it stick, that makes it relevant and resonant,
that it allows someone to hear you. So yeah, I wanted to make a big distinction
between, you know, information delivery and the relationship. Yeah, I've heard you
talk about how even thinking about the physician, we go to our physician, presumably
to get help, to get a diagnosis, to get medicine, but really what's happening there
is the relationship. is forming. And I've heard you say something to the effect of,
you know, a physician may have some ideas about what I need to do to be healthier.
But if they just give me the information, I mean, some people will do it, you
know, in some circumstances, you will do it, but often you need. that connection and
then earlier you had mentioned that like these there are benefits and that the
benefits go both ways yeah that's the other thing that i want to kind of um
emphasize from what you said that absolutely and i feel like that was another you
know kind of surprising and to me very profound um revelation because we are used
to i think talking about like kind of the benefits of this work for the patient or
for the student you know like yes many many physicians told me for example um the
relationship is what motivates the patient to take care of their health or whatever
so they're all everyone's on board with motivation of the recipient.
And that's the primary benefit of this relationship. But actually,
you know, I did five years of research, all these interviews and observations. And I
found that actually, when we talk about motivation for a patient or a client,
there's also motivation or what we would call purpose for the worker,
the practitioner, the teacher, the physician and the therapist and you can actually
kind of trace uh these kind of two -way benefits um all the way throughout through
so if you think that like being seen a human being offers dignity. Well,
it also kind of generates dignity for the seer,
what we might call humanity. They kind of got in touch with their inner humanity.
So it kind of goes both ways. And we don't talk about that too much.
How does observing of that shape your own professional?
Mindset and understanding of your own work. Yeah. So for me, my connective labor,
you know, I'm as you can tell, I was like finding it everywhere. So all the
different ways that all the different moments that I experience it for sure in in
-depth interviewing, which is the way I do my research. So that's a very fundamental.
you know, kind of moment of connective labor, but also teaching even in a college
classroom. And then for sure, my PhD advising with kind of graduate students.
So that's a very intense one -on -one experience where I'm trying to kind of see
their truth to kind of elicit the research project that they want to do,
you know, that kind of thing. So it's changed. The research changed,
made me more aware of probably what I knew already.
I think the reason why I did this work is probably because I was seeing it in my
own, you know, kind of professional life already.
I could imagine, but it probably brought it to the surface because I thought about
that when I was researching is, you know, even the people with whom I work now,
even, you know, technically I have someone here to help me out with the technology.
There's connection. It's not just, and this is kind of takes me to the next part
of the conversation because on some level, and I love how the book ends very
hopefully, we're living in a world that is making it harder to do the human work,
right? Some folks might say we think about AI taking over jobs. We see layoffs.
And this way in which our work, whatever it may be, has been such a fundamental
part of our sense of purpose and how we contribute to the world and also how we
connect with others.
And I've been thinking about that because I am somebody who, and this isn't even
about AI, this is just about the pandemic, kind of went from, you know, working in
an office to working mostly from home. And suddenly I find myself like my husband
works from home and suddenly our relationship, we become off connection.
It's a different layer to our relationship, even though we don't work in the same
field, we're not in the same area, but we're suddenly each other's work colleagues.
Yeah. So we're going to find connections somehow right now. Or the folks who are
helping me with the technology that now makes it possible. There's suddenly connective
labor there, right? There's ways. So that's kind of the backdrop. I was thinking
about it as I thought to myself, no matter how much technology comes in, we're
going to have to find this connective tissue. How do you...
First of all, let's say the bad news. How do you see the world making it harder
for kind of this deeply human work where connection is sort of the primary
facilitator? And then I want to get to how can we continue to prioritize it
regardless of what's happening in our technological landscape? The bad news is we
are, you know, kind of making it harder. And there's many trends that are
contributing to that. And actually, I think that AI is actually just,
I would say, what do we call that? The leading edge of the spear or whatever. You
know, it's actually just an extension of trends that have been going on for decades
where we kind of try and capture. I would say organizations or institutions are
trying to capture connective labor to make it more predictable and reproducible and
measurable. You can almost see their frustration about how out of control these,
you know, kind of interpersonal feelings are. And can't we just kind of get a
handle on all that chaos? And so they've done a lot of scripting and they've done
a lot of data analytics, which I end up calling counting. So they're like kind of
dominated by, you know, trends of scripting and counting. And that's been happening,
you know, spreading out from, say, teaching, which has experienced it for decades.
Yeah, where you're teaching to test, teaching to metrics. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. And then there's like a kind of low wage retail, like maybe hairdressing
there, you know. increasingly being asked to you know finish up within 22 minutes
one of my interviewees told me exactly and it's actually breading out into,
you know, kind of high wage professionals, say physicians or, you know, and and
therapists are interesting because they've really been able to hold off a lot of
that. But I looked, I interviewed and observed therapists in,
you know, things like VA hospitals where they're. really being corralled and managed
into very tight time windows. And so that's very unlike the therapist who gets to
kind of see people for as long as they want and don't take insurance. And so
there's a very wide range of how much therapists are subject to this kind of
efficiency imperative, but it's really spreading across the economy.
And it's affecting um it's it's it's on some level quite antithetical to simply
seeing somebody and establishing those connections in all their fullness yeah and uh
you know you could say that ai is just the next step like if we're already trying
to kind of corral this then like why not make it more efficient and why not you
know that kind of thing That's a really good point. You think about customer service
over the last 20 years, where it's gone from someone really a thing,
you know, where you have an art to being service oriented. You know, I picture my
grandparents think, you know, how they thought of customer service, right? To where,
you know, when I grew up, you know, it's just, it doesn't feel human, even though
it is. There's sort of a script in it. and many buttons you have to push till you
even get too human to what you're saying you're right to now almost maybe i should
just talk to a robot because you know it might be right right so that's been
eroding for a long time i get what you're saying and that's a really good point
and so so how do we i guess there's a couple of questions how do we hang on to
ourselves through inevitable change how do we not you know i think there's that that
part of us that wants to just fight it you know um but it's coming it's already
here to your point to some degree we've already been muddling through reduced
connectivity a lot of us i think go to the the doctor and notice it you know it's
no longer a real conversational relationship it's sort of a bureaucratic list of
questions and nobody wants to step outside of the lines and It's not, you know,
so how do we, I'm not sure what my question is, I guess, how do we remember our
worth both? And I'm thinking both of the folks who are in the professions, right?
Those of us who are noticing we're not able to do what we wish we could do, but
also those of us on the other side of it, to your point, there's two sides of it.
It's not good for either person involved. How do we, what do we do?
I mean, I completely agree. And I also don't think it's good for like our
communities or our democracy. I think, you know, being seen across these different,
in these different, you know, kind of spaces, being seen by your barista, being seen
by your librarian, being seen by your hairdresser, like these are all different kind
of moments of connection that matter, especially like in a kind of cumulative way,
for sure. So yeah, I think it's vital. The only thing I would say, about your kind
of prefatory comments here. You made a comment about inevitable change.
And that's where I'm going to push back. And that's where I find the light at the
end of the tunnel. Because it's not inevitable. The inevitability of it is part of
the hype machine that's coming out of, you know. I don't know, those that are
purveying industrial logic, but certainly the AI companies in Silicon Valley.
But I was glad to write chapter eight,
which was all about places that are actually prioritizing connective labor right this
second. Like they're not needing a world revolution or, you know, the U .S.
to grow a welfare state where it doesn't have one, you know. Instead, it's like
right this second, they have some unique constellation of circumstances that enable
them to prioritize seeing and being seen.
And that's... I think that's, of course, on the administrators,
but it's also on workers, those that have choices,
to make choices based on rewarding organizations that take it seriously,
that take attention seriously. And then as consumers, as you said,
we're the patients, the clients, the students, and the consumers. We have some power
also in kind of choosing those kind of circumstances,
factors, organizations, practitioners that make the space for this.
And I think that will have an effect, that plus regulation and all sorts of
advocacy on a kind of much bigger macro level. Yeah. So I'd love I'd love what
you're saying. It's not inevitable. We have choice both as workers and consumers. And
I love that. I I even as a consumer, I was thinking about this customer service
thing because I noticed in myself getting tremendously inhuman and heated when you're
dealing with trying to call someone things like Verizon. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
and reminding. I mean, I had this experience very recently. I was like in the
Hyatt. I think I was in some mass chain. asking for an extended checkout,
a late checkout. And they had a fake AI, like an AI, but one that they were
disguising as a human. So she had, it was a she and she had like kind of, she
had, you could hear her breaths and she had pauses and um, and a kind of cute
style. And I was like, oh my God. And she was like, so you want an express
checkout? And I'm like, no, you know, it was very frustrating. So this,
I mean, this is a very real example of right hanging on to our humanity on the
consumer side, which because in the past I could say, let's say it's tense. This is
a human at the very least. And I'll say, I don't care if they're, you know, you're
a human. I'm sorry. I got frustrated. This is hard. And you can have, you can find
the human connection, no matter how much the institutional organization is trying to
bury it. But in that situation, right. Yeah. You're,
you know, it's tricky. It's tricky. Yeah. Yeah. Give me some examples.
Go ahead. And I'm curious about some examples that you found of where folks are
fighting this. But I'm curious. Yeah. Some of the examples, my favorite example was
a clinic, which was a little crazy in how much it
prioritized connected labor so that instead of the 20 minutes for an appointment,
people had essentially two hours for their first appointment.
And I think they had, maybe it went down to, I forget, an hour and 40 minutes or
something for the second, you know, like long time. And then they had the medical
assistant who they had kind of amped up to a bigger job go with patients.
accompany patients to specialists and it was just so profound and i had was talking
to these medical assistants saying like i wish my parents had this everyone deserves
this yes you know and it was so inspiring um so yeah that that's really great i
have to think that uh i'll say this maybe on my more pessimistic days I think that
that is not possible on a wide scale. And instead,
I think much more likely is the kind of deployment that we're seeing now.
So the example of the customer service bots or whatever is a great example where
they are deploying AI to handle the easy cases and then the complex cases go to a
human being and you and i and others know this that like if you're like getting
really frustrated just go agent agent agent and it will take you to a human being
yes and that is one version yeah of the future that we are all getting
It's it's it's something I think, again, both as participants, whatever, you know,
and then those of us. And my heart goes out to folks who, to your point, we want
to try to continue to provide a connection and a care.
But there are times when you can't and you need the work. And if someone's telling
you to read a script or keep it to 10 minutes, you know, just trying to find
your. Your humanity within that. Yeah.
Is going to be. I mean, I. Yeah, that's really true. And I've talked to people who
whose jobs have been. I mean, I would call that corroded.
Maybe other people might not agree, but. Yeah, like whose jobs have been.
organized in that fashion to me though when I talk to people about what people got
out of this job they talked about how meaningful it was and when they talked about
it when they were burnt out or drowning in it or overburdened or you know needing
the kind of escape that a 10 minute script would give them.
It was more about how they were working for a place that didn't allow them the
space to see someone else well. So I felt sympathy for them going,
you know, I'm burned out and I just need a break. And, you know, a little AI
would do me a great job, you know, do me a great favor. But at the same time,
I didn't want us to lose sight of the fact that If they were able to see the
other and have the time to do that, they would not be screaming for AI to help
them. Yes, that's right. The burnout, because to your point, there's a dignity on
the person who is doing the seeing. And when you deprive them of that, it's not
good for them either. right right and it leads to that burnout and that
demoralization um yeah yeah what do you see so i want us to kind of head back to
the beginning and be like let's solve that part instead of like saying here let's
get you a scribe or whatever yeah yes yes interesting well so let's get to so
suddenly i felt a spark of hope what is the hope in this this is kind of What
I'm wondering, if the human, our need for purpose, our desire for connection and
creativity will begin to, I love what you just said, oh, what I need to do is get
back to the connection. Yeah. And we'll find ways to do that. What do you see as
the hope? That is my hope.
It's my, I also have a fairly gloomy. version of it but maybe i'll just take you
down the really hopeful one first which is it is it does feel like you know people
cherish this um these connections or this capacity to feel to be seen and to see
others they they value it tremendously yeah and um and in its absence especially uh
when it's being kind of transformed or limited by technology,
people really yearn for it and notice it. So that's suggestive that maybe there
might be some pushback. There will definitely be a retrenchment at some point.
We're not always going to be like kind of hurtling towards embracing AI in every
single corner of our lives. It's just a little crazy moment that we're in right
now. So there will be retrenchment. And my question is, in that retrenchment moment,
if it comes in two, five or 10 years, will that be a moment where people go,
no, actually, humanity and connection is what is valuable here? Yes.
I mean, I hope that that's true. I know people feel that way. The question is
whether they will be able to express it and find it. Yeah. Yeah. Listening to you,
reading the book, that was my big takeaway is I want to be someone, whatever I'm
doing, that's trying to bring that in somehow. And you do. This is doing that.
Well, you know, I mean, we're in a screen. We're not in person. But I want, I
really, that's one thing I've really gotten from your work is this is the
irreplaceable thing is the connection. between us yes exactly right you can't replace
it and it means something and it matters we have to figure that out whatever that's
the thing we can hang on to whatever's happening we can't we can't control amazon
we can't control you know the powers that be we can't control everything but we can
control the moment we're in to some degree and until as you're saying i love what
you're saying you know the dust will settle somewhere um it will I mean, I have to
say that part of the fight here is a fight about evidence because you can't really
count this work very well. It's a very qualitative kind of experience.
And that kind of evidence is sometimes...
kind of disparaged as, oh, just testimonials or, oh, just stories. And people,
even kind of policymakers know that stories drive, you know,
emotion, but they really rely on, you know, randomized controlled trials and
statistical evidence to kind of make policy. So this is a really,
at its core, we have to be able to rally the troops.
the connective labor troops around asserting the importance of this kind of evidence
also. And that's why I wanted this to be about like maybe alternative means of
moving needles, like using art and using poetry and using novels and using,
you know, like just trying to kind of touch people in their hearts where they might
be able to hear these. and profundities that we all experience.
And we just know, I love what you're saying. And here you are at the middle of
Johns Hopkins, which is a very research scientifically driven institution.
I mean, of all of them, it's probably the most in some ways. Yeah.
Waving your flag for, you know, for connected labor, connective labor.
And I love it. I just, I think it's beautiful. I love what you're doing. I want
to encourage you. I came, you know, we were in Boston for just personally,
we were in Boston and then the pandemic allowed us to spend more time in the, I
grew up in a little town in Wyoming and it's allowed us to be here more because
honestly, there's, you know, there's more we can do remotely. But I will say being
in a smaller rural area and outside of sort of an academic world, the things you're
talking about are everywhere. Everywhere. and those connections.
And it's almost like it's such a healthy, right? Like my dignity in pouring this
cup of coffee for someone is so profound because I'm seeing them every day.
And I'm just like, that is, you know, it doesn't matter what my work is.
And I caught a little bit more of it. And I see you doing such a beautiful job
of through research, through trying to gather the evidence, through talking to people,
kind of wave that flag for this connective labor that brings us meaning in life and
in our work and no matter what we're doing. So I just want to encourage you. I
just thought it was beautiful and grateful that you are. part of bringing the
evidence, right? Bringing the data to say, no, no, this is it. Well, thank you.
Thank you so much. And I love hearing that about where you are, because I don't
spend that much time in more rural places. And so that's really terrific to hear.
You hear so much about kind of a, I don't know, alienation or loneliness.
And of course, you hear that about urban environments, but you also hear it about,
you know, rurality. So it's just really nice to hear that you're... a lot of
connection there yeah there's it yeah it's it's it's a very interesting that would
be it so as a sociologist i i would love for your analysis because i'm just
speaking purely anecdotally but there's a there is a quantifiable difference you know
just one little example when when we were gone for a long time in the suburbs of
boston And then we went back during the pandemic and people didn't know that we
were gone. Oh, no, really? Now, that might say something about us,
but it's a bedroom community. Folks live there and don't work there, right? That
wouldn't happen. You know, it's almost here. It's almost like, gosh, I wish I was a
little more anonymous. You know, people don't run around. But it's just anecdotally
and sociologically, you know, I love your, you know, that lens. It's like something
is going on here. That amidst the backdrop of this technology conversation is
interesting in how we're going to move forward as a people who live in need to be
connected to one another. Yes, exactly. And what you're describing is so interesting
because of the drawback or the costs of privacy,
you know, and like people want privacy. But also it makes us into these little
islands. And part of what's so important is to bridge those islands.
Yes. And to do so requires a little oomph to get over the inertia.
And some of that oomph is already provided in places where,
you know, you see each other every day. I have hope based on that because I just
think, oh, yeah, we will figure this out. But tell my listeners,
I love, I could keep going just back and forth because I just think it's such an
interesting, tell my listeners where they can find your book. We'll link to it, but
just give us the name of it and a little bit of what you hope folks will come
away from as they read it. It's such a beautiful piece of work. Oh, thank you.
Yeah, so. You can get The Last Human Job for sure at Princeton University Press.
You can get it on Amazon or wherever you buy your books. Yeah,
it's pretty widely. It's still, I think, pretty widely out there. And what do I
hope people get from it? I wrote this book to kind of highlight the...
profound and vital work that people do to connect to the other and I felt like
that work was invisible, kind of taken for granted, assumed if you were a woman,
ignored if you were a man and I wanted us to kind of put it under a microscope
and look at what makes it like what enables it and what makes it more what makes
it more difficult to do and and also the threats that were posed by automation and
ai so i want i was kind of someone one of my reviewers called it a love letter
to connecting and and that is true i love it it is definitely a love letter to
connecting i love it but it's also about um you know kind of This is something we
need to preserve and protect against these kind of urgent threats. I love it.
Thank you. Thanks for just sharing your wisdom and thanks for just shining that
light. I think it's beautiful and important and I'm grateful to have you here today.
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you for joining me for this week's
episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you take a moment to
subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to or watch
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of You Every Day, a brief daily reflection to help you start your mornings with a
steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor
God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God -given self.
Episode Shownotes
How do you actually heal and change—not just cope or try harder?
In this solo episode, Dr. Alison reflects on five core insights about faith, attachment, and the inner life—not as a plan for self-improvement, but as wisdom for formation.
January often comes with pressure to reset, optimize, and fix ourselves. But many of us begin the year already tired — weary of striving, and hungry for something deeper.
This episode offers a different invitation.
Rather than asking what to change, Dr. Alison invites us to notice how we are already being formed — especially in moments of stress, fear, and uncertainty.
In this conversation, Dr. Alison explores:
- Why faith is not just what we believe
- The hidden way your nervous system influences your spiritual life
- What many “spiritual struggles” are really pointing to
- The missing ingredient most change efforts overlook
- Why striving for perfection keeps so many people stuck
Growth isn’t about eliminating fear or complexity. It’s learning where to return when fear inevitably shows up.
More Resources:
📥 Grab your 3 free Soul Mending resources here
If you liked this episode, then you’ll love the following:
Episode 122: Navigating Anxiety, Therapy, and Spiritual Formation—Balancing Mental, Emotional, & Spiritual Health with John Mark Comer
Episode 113: A New Vision of Human Flourishing—A Christian Approach to Mental Health with Duke University Psychiatrist & Theologian Warren Kinghorn
💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.
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While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.
TRANSCRIPT
How do we become the kind of people who can live with steadiness, courage, and
love, especially in complex times? I want to reflect with you on five of the most
important things I've learned over the years about faith, attachment, and the inner
life, not as a to -do list, but as wisdom for us to live into.
Mature faith doesn't eliminate complexity. It learns how to hold it. Wholeness isn't
about never feeling afraid. It's about knowing where to return when fear inevitably
shows up.
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. If
you're new here, I'm so glad you've found us. This is a space for anyone who's
longing for a wiser way of being human, a place where we honor the complexity of
our real lives. We ground ourselves in modern science and in ancient wisdom and
where we're always asking a deeper question. What actually helps us live wisely from
the inside out? January is such a charged month. Everywhere you turn,
there's a sense that it's time to reset, to optimize, to finally become the version
of yourself you were meant to be new goals, new habits, new resolve. Meanwhile,
there's so much going on in the world around us. And if you're honest, you may be
starting this year already feeling tired or behind. Tired of self -improvement,
tired of trying to fix things, maybe tired of carrying that sense that you just
can't catch up. Or maybe you feel a different kind of weariness, not with goals,
but with spiritual answers that sound okay on the surface, but don't actually meet
you in your lived experience. You believe, you care for others. Your faith is real
and still your nervous system. It's on edge. Your inner life feels crowded or
disconnected. Your prayers sometimes feel more like effort than rest. Underneath all
of this, I hear a hunger in so many conversations. How do I live more fruitfully
from the inside out? How do I become steady, more anchored? Not by trying harder,
but by becoming more rooted. That's the question I want to sit with today.
This episode isn't about advice. It's not about how we fix ourselves. It's not about
setting the right intentions for the new year. It's about how we orient our inner
lives. Because before we ask what we're doing this new year we need to ask
today nothing to try to get right just notice what resonates notice what softens
inside notice what feels like an exhale because formation doesn't happen through
pressure it happens through presence before we get started I want to take a moment
to reintroduce myself especially if you're new here or maybe you've been listening
for a while and just want to know more about my background why I do this I'm a
therapist, but more technically I'm a psychologist of religion. And what that means
is that I study the psychology of how we are formed, not just emotionally and
mentally, but spiritually. I'm interested in how our inner lives take shape over
time, how our early relationships shape the way we experience ourselves, others,
and God, and how faith lives not just in what we say we believe, but in how safe
and secure we feel when life gets hard. My work lives at the intersection of three
things. Attachment, how we learn closeness and safety and trust, the inner life,
the parts of us that hold fear, longing, wisdom, and protection, and faith,
not as performance, but as relationship and meaning making. I'm less interested in
behavior modification and
quietly beneath the surface. And over the years, I've noticed that many people bounce
between a few familiar options when they're struggling. None of these are bad, but
sometimes we turn to therapy that focuses primarily on symptom management.
How do I get rid of the anxiety? How do I find a script, right, to set boundaries
in this relationship? Sometimes it's devotional content that inspires us,
but doesn't always help us integrate what we're feeling or the inspiration with our
bodies and our relationships and our real lives. And sometimes we turn to willpower.
We try harder. We try to be more disciplined. We try to fix ourselves through sheer
determination. Each of those has a place. I believe firmly in all of them on some
level. Don't get me wrong, but none of them on their own really get at this deeper
question. How do we become?
white knuckling growth. It's a wiser way of becoming even more human.
This means we pay attention to the nervous system, our attachment patterns, to the
inner parts of us that learned how to survive long before we had words for faith
or relationship or psychology or theology, right? These inner movements of our souls.
Your thoughts, your emotions, the movements of your nervous system, your inner world.
One of the things I've learned is that people don't usually struggle because we
don't care enough, believe enough, or try hard enough. We struggle because we haven't
been taught how to return, how to come back again and again to safety,
to love, to God when fear takes over. And that's...
to them by what we believe. Most of us assume that our beliefs are what shape us,
and there's some truth in that. Our thoughts and beliefs do matter. But when I
really started to pay attention to myself and to what I saw happening in others, I
realize there's so often a disconnect between our heads and our hearts, between what
we think or believe to be true and how we actually live. Something else was doing
the heavier lifting. What actually forms us is what we returned
or urgency or self -criticism or striving. I need to do better,
be better, try harder. And here's the thing. Your nervous system doesn't distinguish
between what you believe in theory and what you practice in moments of threat. So
even if you believe God is loving, in that moment of stress, if you return again
and again to pressure, criticism, performance, or panic, those returns are what are
becoming your functional theology. Faith I've learned isn't just belief.
It's a pattern of return. We are forming ourselves every single day.
So the question for our purposes here isn't what do you believe. It's where do you
go when things get hard? That realization alone can change everything.
Number two, Our deepest spiritual struggles are often rooted in attachment wounds,
not failures of faith. For years, I watched people label their spiritual pain in
harsh ways. I did it to myself. We call it rebellion. We call it weakness. We call
it doubt or fear that needs correcting. But when we slow down, when we listen more
carefully, what emerges isn't defiance. It's longing. longing for safety,
for closeness, for...
felt fragile, if love once felt conditional, if attention had to be earned,
those patterns don't just disappear over time, over the process of becoming an adult,
right? They follow us deeply within our souls, which means healing doesn't come from
trying harder to believe the right things or using willpower to muscle through.
Healing comes through restored connection, through restored attachment, learning slowly
what it feels like to be met in our pain and in our fear rather than managed.
This brings me to something many people resist at first. Number three,
your inner world isn't a problem to solve. It's a sacred place to tend.
Your inner world, the emotions, reactions, protectors, and the longings inside you,
these aren't obstacles to your growth. This is the very place where formation
happens. So many people treat their inner life, like a house with rooms, they don't
want to enter. There's rooms labeled anger, envy, grief, fear, need.
These are blocked off and locked up tight, right? We don't want to look into them.
But nothing inside you is there by accident. Every reaction carries information.
Every protective pattern once served a purpose. Every longing points towards something
sacred or beautiful. When we approach these rooms of the soul with curiosity rather
than judgment, something incredible happens. What once felt like chaos becomes an
opportunity for communication and clarity. What once felt like shame becomes an
invitation. The goal isn't to eliminate these rooms in your soul. You might think of
them as parts of yourself. It's to connect to these places with a listening posture,
to seek understanding with compassion so they no longer have to shout so loud.
This kind of soul tending isn't self -absorption. It's stewardship, because tending our
inner life is one of the most important spiritual acts we can practice. Number four,
God heals us not primarily through correction, but through presence. One of the most
transformative shifts I've experienced and witnessed in others is this. Lasting change
doesn't happen when people finally get the logic right. It happens when they
fears fear. Think about it. When you're overwhelmed, what actually helps you?
Is it being told to calm down? You get the logic of that. Or is it being met by
someone who stays with you? Spiritual growth accelerates when God is experienced not
as a constant evaluator, but as a secure base, someone you can return to,
someone who holds you steady while you find your footing again. Correction, of
course, has its place, but presence is what makes correction bearable and healing
possible. And finally, this may be the most important thing I've learned.
Number five, wholeness, not perfection, is the goal of a mature spiritual life.
Mature fate doesn't eliminate complexity. It learns how to hold it. Wholeness isn't
about never feeling afraid. It's about knowing where to return when fear inevitably
shows up. A whole person will feel anxiety and still choose love.
They'll set boundaries with others without losing compassion. They'll live with
questions without losing strong, solid ground. This is what it means to live from a
secure inner center, not a life without struggle, but a life anchored enough to move
through struggle with integrity. This kind of soul knows deep down where home is.
And that kind of life isn't achieved through fixing yourself. It's formed through
faithful returns each and every day. So as we move into this new year,
I want to offer a different way of orienting ourselves, not a set of goals, but a
way of walking together. If you've resonated with anything in this episode, it's
probably because something in you already knows that growth doesn't happen through
pressure. It happens through practice. Small returns, repeated over time.
That's the spirit of what we're building here. This year we'll be exploring themes
like inner formation, how change actually takes root beneath the surface, secure
attachment, learning what safety and love and trust feel like in real time.
We'll talk about boundaries, not as walls, but a sacred ground from which to thrive
and how to live wisely and faithfully in a complicated, often anxious world.
And that's why I'm so excited about this new rhythm. We're already already practicing
together the daily podcast that we just started this year. It's about daily practice,
daily returns. Short reflections, anchored in scripture, a pause to anchor us each
day. This isn't a place to go deep into self -help, but to help us return to what
steadies us each day again and again. And then the Thursday episodes Like this one
are where we go deeper. We slow down and we explore one idea more fully.
We connect the dots between psychology, faith, and lived experience. We'll have
experts come on in their respective fields to help guide us through different
processes of healing and growth and transformation. These episodes are meant to be
companions, not content to keep up with, but places to come back to because this
isn't a program to complete. This isn't a challenge to conquer, right? This is a
way of how we can live and grow together. So as this year begins,
I hope you'll release the urgency to reinvent yourself, to improve,
and to instead notice where you're already forming, where you're already returning.
What is already steadying you, what has already started to deplete you,
and what always, without fail, invites you home back to safety,
back to love, back to security deep within. That awareness alone is a powerful place
to start. As we close, I want to leave you with something simple. The reality is
formation takes time. Love grows slowly and the parts of you that learn to survive
don't need to be rushed into healing. It's actually counterproductive. And we have
this quote in boundaries for your soul that I love, especially when I'm talking to
people who are in a hurry. It's like I want to feel better. I want to get there
faster. And the reality is this process, this way that we've been talking about.
This is a slower way to get to where you want to be faster, right? You're not
working against yourself. You're working with yourself when you slow down enough to
listen to your inner life. If all you do in the coming weeks is begin to notice
where you return when you're stressed, what steadies you when you feel afraid,
what voice you trust when you feel unsure, whether it's inside of you or from
someone else, That's more than enough. You don't need to fix yourself before you're
worthy of rest, and you don't need to resolve every question before you're allowed
to take a breath. Just stay curious. Stay attuned to the movements within your soul.
And when things feel heavy, as they will, take a deep breath and let God's presence
do the quiet work. It already knows how to do. I'm so grateful that you're here,
and I can't wait to walk through this year together. Thank you for joining.
day for the best of you every day, a brief daily reflection to help you start your
mornings with a steady dose of wisdom. Remember, as you become the best of who you
are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God -given self.
Stay connected all week long
The Best of You Every Day offers short, daily reflections on Scripture through the lens of emotional health—helping you stay steady, connected, and rooted in love.
