Science-backed tools.
Spiritually-based wisdom.

What do you do when the very place that was supposed to nourish your soul becomes a source of deep harm?

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In this deeply moving and necessary conversation, therapist, pastor, and trauma specialist Rachael Clinton Chen joins Dr. Alison to talk about the pain of spiritual abuse—and what it looks like to begin healing from it.

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Whether you’ve experienced overt harm in a religious setting or carry subtle wounds from spiritual messaging that shaped your identity in unhealthy ways, this episode offers a gentle, powerful invitation toward healing, dignity, and reclaiming your voice.

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Rachel shares:

• Her own story of healing from spiritual abuse
  
  
• Why spiritual pain is often so hard to name
  
  
• How systems of control in churches and families silence women and survivors
  
  
• The importance of embodiment and “coming home to yourself” in healing
  
  
• A theological lens for honoring your anger, grief, and truth
  
  

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If you've ever questioned your worth because of how faith was used against you—or wondered how to hold onto your spirituality while confronting the harm—you’re not alone. This episode is full of insight, validation, and hope for your journey.

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📋Spiritual abuse can be hard to recognize, because it’s often the water we’re swimming in. That’s why The Allender Center put together a self-guided checklist designed to help identify signs of spiritual abuse in your own life or the lives of others. You can download it here.

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🖥Take a healing step and start The Spiritual Abuse & Healing Online Course and use code COOK20 for 20% at checkout.

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If this episode speaks to you, you’ll also love:

• ⁠Episode 67⁠ — The Inextricable Link Between Faith & Emotional Healing—Gen Z & A Hidden Search for Meaning with Cindy Gao
  
  
• Episode 153 — Embodied Healing, Spiritual Trauma, and the Journey Home to Your Body with Dr. Hillary McBride
  
  
• ⁠Episode 17⁠ — What Is Church Hurt and How Do I Heal?

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📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here

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💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

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Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

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Transcript

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Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Best of You. I'm your host, Dr. Alison, and I'm so honored to bring you today's episode with the incredible Rachael Clinton. Chen Rachel is a trauma practitioner, a pastor, a teacher, and a spiritual abuse expert at the Islander Center, which is housed within the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology.

She holds a master of divinity from the Seattle School, and she spent years [00:02:00] working at the intersection of trauma, faith in healing. Rachel has just a rare gift. It was so fun to talk with her throughout this conversation. She brings theological depth, psychological insight, and just such a real and embodied presence to some of the most complex conversations around harm and healing in the church.

In this episode, Rachel opens up about her own story from an early call to ministry at 12 years old in a system that didn't know what to do with her voice, to the healing journey that led her to reclaim her gifts and help others do the same. You'll hear her story as well as how she began to recognize the impact of spiritual abuse in her own life and why she's so passionate about helping others reclaim a safe and sacred connection with God.

She's also the creator of the Spiritual Abuse & Healing Online Course . This is a compassionate, self-paced resource for anyone navigating the confusing and [00:03:00] often hidden harm that comes through spiritual abuse. This is an extraordinary course. It's deep, it's rich, and it's packed with practical tools and.

You can find the course at www.theallendercenter.org and Rachel has generously extended a 20% discount for you, my podcast listeners. You just use the code COOK 20 at checkout, or head to the link in the show notes to have the discount applied automatically. And because spiritual abuse can be so hard to name, especially when it's been in the water we've been swimming in.

Rachel and the team at the Allender Center have also created a free spiritual abuse checklist to help you begin to name what you may have experienced. It's a powerful tool for self-reflection—you can download it at www.theallendercenter.org/spiritual-abuse-checklist

This conversation is just an incredibly moving and real story about a woman working to claim her [00:04:00] God-given voice. Rachel's words are for anyone who's felt confused, dismissed, or harmed in a spiritual setting. I'm thrilled to bring you my conversation with Rachel Clinton Chen.

INTERVIEW

Alison Well, I'm just so thrilled to have this conversation with you. We've known of each other's work. I've been on your podcast, which has been really amazing. I've known of your work, but just this chance, honestly, selfishly, I love this opportunity to get to connect with people I admire and learn more about your story. So I would love to start there, Rachel, if that's okay with you? 

Rachael Clinton Chen Yeah. That's great. 

Alison I did a little internet sleuthing and I found this quote. Someone asked you in an interview what you would say to your younger self. And this is what you wrote. So I'm gonna start us with this. 'cause I would love to know a little more about the story of this younger you you wrote, darling girl, you burn bright and beautiful and your gifts are not an [00:05:00] abomination, disgusting, or too much. So sing the songs of God that shake you. That is. Such a powerful reflection. Can you tell us a little more about this younger version of you who needed to hear those words and how her story has led you to this work?

Rachael Clinton Chen Yeah, absolutely. You know, so part of, I mean. Huge part of my story is I was raised in a Southern Baptist tradition and I could honestly say there are some really beautiful good things that came from that. And being a little girl who had I. Speaking gifts. You know, my parents will tell these stories and that's also like an anomaly.

Like my parents were very supportive of my call to ministry even though they were also in this system. So like these [00:06:00] kind of places that just didn't make sense. But I. I started preaching from the time I was like a little girl, and some of those didn't go so well, like quoting scripture at friends when they were having like a fit, you know, like children obey your parents or how I started quoting scripture at them, like when they would give that one to me.

And then I would say, what the second verse is, fathers do not exasperate your children. You know, and I mean, in high school I was nominated and most likely to become a motivational speaker. You know, I sang special music at church. Now I'm just a curious okia aficionado, but if you come from a tradition where there was like special music during the offering, I was one of those people.

But I would always set it up like this song, you know, is really talking about this character of God and this scripture. Again, no part of me at that time would've been like, I think I'm called to pastor, or I think I'm called to preach. That would've felt so incredibly. Threatening and honestly disgusting.

Like I already knew. Deep in my [00:07:00] bones, girls are not allowed to do that. This came to a head for me when I was 12. I had a call to ministry at church camp. I got a summer camp, and it was very real for me because by that point I had already decided, you know, I'm gonna be a doctor. I don't wanna struggle with money.

I don't want poverty to be a thing I have to deal with. So like I'm gonna make good money. I have a plan and I'm in this service that, you know, they're doing all the music things and sure, I can like look at all the ways, like some of those, like alter calls could be really manipulative. But there was this one little like extra added invitation.

You know, you could get saved, you could rededicate your life, you could get baptized, and then it was like. You could say yes to a call to ministry. And I was like, no, no way. No. And there was something of this wrestling I did with God. I, I don't know how else to talk about it, that it just felt like my life flashed before my eyes.

And [00:08:00] it wasn't like, oh, if you become a doctor, you're not serving God. It was just very much like, Rachel, I've made you this way and. I want you to trust me. So I, after like me in 10 minutes of like gripping onto that wooden pew, like I'm not going down there. I went running like, okay, you're right. I wanna tease life, like I wanna live.

But when I got down there, I was met by a man, he had a little card, I still have this card. And he was like, you know what? What's your decision today? And I said, I'm called to ministry, thinking he was gonna be so excited. And the look on his face was such. A disappointment, like I don't know how else to say it, or concern, you know?

And so I'm like, okay. So they pulled us into this little side room to have more conversation. And you know, you basically said, well, I just wanna make sure you know that your options for ministry are, you can work with children, you can marry a pastor, or you can go to the mission field. Now, no offense against any of those things, but just for [00:09:00] me, I felt so duped by God.

Like, you know, my genuine response was kinda like, what the hell? This is not what I was imagining in this montage of my life. And I felt such despair, almost like I was such a loyal little person because of my developmental trauma. It was like I said yes to you, so I guess I said yes to you. I went back to my bunk.

I. I sat down on the bunk bed and I did that thing, you know that they say you're not supposed to do. Where I did like roulette with the Bible, like, yeah, yeah. I just need to hear from you. Yeah. Like, I need something. And by whatever grace of God or coincidence, Isaiah 61 popped up and there was something I've just hearing the spirit say, like, I'm the one who anoints and.

This is what I've called you to and I had, I was just an existential kid. Like I had that sense in my bones, like this is gonna be a journey, but I need to remember, I. Whatever it is I'm doing, this is what I'm called to. So, I mean, there were many, [00:10:00] I got kicked out of youth leadership because I was student council president and that was like too secular.

I mean, that was, there's just so many stories. I went to undergrad, started out in nursing 'cause I was like, well I could go to the mission field as a nurse. You know, like I was just trying to find the ways I could bring my gifts. Turns out not supposed to work with bodies at all, like couldn't handle blood.

It was like very like, what are you doing? Switch to biblical studies and sociology at every turn had people saying, keep going, but also like, don't go here 'cause you won't get the same education. So I just think that little girl had so many beautiful gifts that it wasn't until I was 27 and in seminary at the Seattle school that like the first person called me a pastor.

And I just think so much of what she felt was almost like, what's wrong with me? Like, why am I like this? Why do I keep talking when people are like, stop talking. Why do I keep caring so much [00:11:00] about the church or the way people are supposed to be loved, or how the Bible's supposed to be engaged and interpreted so.

Alison Why did God make me this way and give me these gifts and this longing and this desire if I'm not supposed to do it? What a dissonance, you know, for a young body to absorb. Even when you said, you know, I kind of felt my body like a maze where you're like, well, I try to go and then I'd hit a wall. You know, you can't do that, and I wonder as your.

Surfing that dissonance of what you loved. I, I see. Even before we started recording, you said, I'm a pastor at heart and I just, I gotta tell you. Just so you know, I got tears in my eyes 'cause I was at a fork in the road at a point in my life actually. JS Park, I don't know if you're familiar with his work. He's a chaplain and he told me he thinks of himself as a the priest. And I was like, that's it. 

Rachael Clinton Chen Yeah, that's it.

Alison I feel like I straddle that line of wanting to pastor people. 'cause I believe in community, I believe in [00:12:00] the body. I believe in systems, but my gifts are a little more in the one-on-one. Space, but I don't think the two are divorced.

And so when you said I'm a pastor at heart, you know, I was just like, oh, everything in me just lit up. Like, oh, how beautiful that you know that. And so I'm curious, what were your breakthrough moments where people came alongside of you and helped you? I could imagine someone never leaning into that with some of the roadblocks that you had.

So someone or some things had to come in into your path that helped unlock that and give you the freedom to just lean into it. 

Rachael Clinton Chen Yeah, I mean, I went to Oklahoma Baptist University, which is a Southern Baptist liberal arts school, and I had incredible professors who, you know, the female contingency in the School of religion was very small.

We were very, very small. And they just celebrated our wisdom, like invited us to dream. You know, it was one of my [00:13:00] professors that said, you need to go to seminary, like you're in the right field. But don't go to a Southern Baptist Seminary because you won't get the same education. You will face a lot of obstacles to your gifting, but there are a lot of other places out there.

That will welcome you and say Yes again. There will be obstacles because of the world we live in, but there are better options. I mean, at the time I was like, I'm not going to seminary. I'm so tired of thinking about God academically, but I appreciated someone believing in me and yes, yes, yes. 

Alison From inside a culture that didn't necessarily, yes, sanction your gift.

Rachael Clinton Chen That had very explicitly said you cannot, and it would be an abomination for you to do so. Like literally those words, right? Abomination. Kind of imagine you're gonna get like struck by sliding or something. And yeah, so I had professors, not only were they saying those things explicitly, but they were giving us critical thinking skills and opening windows and doors is kind of the way I would think about it.

And I did have like mentors along the way [00:14:00] again. Never a full out saying you need to do these things, but at least affirming we see these really good gifts in you. Like, you know, things got tricky there for a while. 'cause part of how I got to going Baptist University is I was set up in a very abusive relationship with one of my youth leaders who actually was graduating from there.

So it was kind of like, well, I'm gonna go there because he's there. So these weird places that really, I think came out of awful circumstances for me also opened the door. To keep going. And you know, it's funny, I was actually in Rwanda kind of pursuing my mission filled like, well I tried the Parachurch ministry route.

'cause I was like, well they kind have women, but you have to be married to a man in a lot of those contexts. And that didn't work out for me. That's a whole story. So I was in Rwanda kinda doing mission work with the youth group I was working with, and I met this group of Christians from Portland, Oregon, and they were just.

Really normal Christians. I don't [00:15:00] know how to say it other than like they all went to therapy. I had never heard of Christians that went to therapy. They were very affirming of my gifts. They were kind of like, you know, there's some great seminaries in the Pacific Northwest. When I went to the Seattle school, I really considered, I mean that, I think that wrestle for so many people around, like when you have healing tendencies like.

Should I go the therapeutic route? Like I'm really good at this. And I was considering switching to the counseling program and one of my mentors at the school was like, what are your favorite classes? And I was like, hermeneutics Greek and this class on the epistles. And he was like, okay, well I think you need to pay attention to that because most people sitting in a Herman news class aren't like, I love this.

This is amazing. So I did have. These kind of people along the way saying like, keep going. We see these things in you. You're not crazy. You're not grasping for something that's irrational or, 'cause I think there was a [00:16:00] lot of like, oh, you're grasping for power, and it's just like, I don't want. Power. Believe me, I don't want power.

Alison And again, I hear in you just sort of that dissonance between this is how I experienced myself and God, and yet for whatever reason, these people outside of me, I. Have to interpret that in a different way because it, it can't be, and I think of so many, you know, I think of my listeners who maybe didn't have that same calling, but felt like they couldn't lean into the fullness of who God made them to be and, and how painful that is and how that can, in your case, thankfully enough, kind of came in that helped you stay true, but also the pain of how long that took. How easily that could have prompted you to exile those parts of you. 

Rachael Clinton Chen Oh my gosh. And in some ways I did at different seasons, but I know so many people, so many women especially, who like will say to me, man, [00:17:00] I felt that similar calling too. Or I felt like I had similar gifts too, but I just. It was too painful.

Like they didn't have the resources, they didn't have the support, or they experienced enough harm in those contexts that it was like, why would I ever wanna have anything to do with these people or this god? 

Alison That's even more to the point. Just leave all together. This is a little bit of a side note, and everybody probably asks you this, but did you read Beth Moore's memoir?

Rachael Clinton Chen I did because let me tell you, Beth Moore was one of my, I, you know, she was someone I was watching, do what I felt called to do, and also like content. Finding a way to do that within the system that like honored all the rules. And so I was watching going, could I do that? And so then to see just her heartbreak and you know, her prophetic voice to say.

What is happening here? Like is this [00:18:00] who you really are? And then to hear her story…

Alison I think that's why it spoke to so many of us. All of what she was able to do didn't come without a cost to her. 

Rachael Clinton Chen Exactly. And it didn't return The honor that she bestowed was not returned to her.

AD BREAK 1

Alison You share Rachel and part of your own ministry as a pastor is that you encourage people who've been through trauma, you're at the Islander Center, you're working with folks in the trenches. You say you know you will find the healing community that will help you make sense. Of the pain and the trauma you bear, how have you begun to find that community in your own life and not necessarily denominationally, although I'm sure you can share that if you want, but you know, what has it felt like for you?

To reclaim a sense of community, not as a [00:19:00] cutoff from all the pain of the past, but as an integration of, oh, this, this is where I belong, and this is where I feel seen and known and received. 

Rachael Clinton Chen Yeah, I think it starts kind of with those people from Portland that I met in Rwanda. I don't know how to explain it other than I was like, I think I need to be in the midst of people who.

I like this. And it started me looking at seminaries in the Pacific Northwest. 'cause as a 23-year-old or 24-year-old, the only way I could imagine leaving Oklahoma with any kind of resourcing was like, well, I guess I gotta go to school. I was looking at fuller extensions, but there wasn't one in Portland, but there was one in Seattle.

And then at the time it was called Marsal Graduate School. And I was such in a place of my trauma kind of reaching its threshold, like my developmental trauma. I still didn't know at the time. I was a traumatized person, like I was very high functioning. I would've said, I'm a really anxious person. I'm a really [00:20:00] fearful person.

I can get a little crazy sometimes, you know, like I. The way that trauma would manifest. You know, I was also reaching the ultimate glass ceiling for me, you know, in my vocation. Like I wasn't being invited to come on staff with this Southern Baptist church I was at because they were looking for men and the mission field.

I was like, no. And so, yeah, I thought I'm gonna go to this school. Because they seem to be able to help people with relationships. And there was something in me that was like, I want vulnerability. I want authenticity. But I still was going because I was going to help people. Like it was still like, of course I'm gonna go get these skills Exactly so I can help other people. Same. And I really just think, yeah.

Alison Same. And then, and then almost toward the end of my program, having my own personal breakdown. It's very unfortunately kind of cliche, but true for many of us.

Rachael Clinton Chen It's so textbook, right? I know. So I went to this counseling psychology school that had an MD program. 'cause I was like, I'm gonna go to them D [00:21:00] program at the counseling psychology school.

You know, like I'll get some really good tools. In my tool belt. And there was something about not just the school, which certainly felt like really fertile soil for me to begin to understand how much healing I needed, but it was also the culture of Seattle. I think when you grow up in the Bible belt to live somewhere, that's like, what?

What's the Bible belt? Or like, what's that like? You know? It's just a very almost post-Christian context. A lot of spiritual but not religious people. And there was something very healing for me, being in a context that just didn't require me. To try to figure out what's real or what's not real. Like if people were going to church on Sunday in Seattle, it wasn't like just culturally Christian.

It was like they went because it was a value to them and they really wanted to go. 

Alison I had the same experience in Boston because the reality for folks who come out of more Christian culture, like the Bible Belt that I came out of a small rural town, but. It's exactly [00:22:00] what you say. For some of us it's just like, oh, well.

And also because there are so many fewer Christians and because there is more of an authenticity, it has to be very real. People are less picky about the details about, about the miners of what you believe. They're just so happy that you have faith, you know? So there's so much more tolerance around some of the, well, and it's just like so refreshing.

Rachael Clinton Chen It was, there was just something. Also, it's beautiful. Seattle's beautiful. The nature and the water and the mountains, everything felt so big. It's almost like whatever mess I had or whatever chaos I was dealing with internally, it just felt like this was a spacious place and very quickly into my program, it was kind of like.

I had sociology, I had theology and biblical studies and philosophy, and I had all these frameworks. Anthropology have been so helpful for me, making sense of like my experience and the human experience, but I did not have psychology, and it was like the missing piece of the frame that then [00:23:00] all of a sudden rapid.

Healing opportunities. Someone invited me to think about the past as a helpful interpretive frame. It was like they were using my language like this could be you. There's some hermeneutic shifts you need to make, right? Yeah, totally. Like there's ways you're making meaning. 'cause that's what hermeneutics means, like how we interpret the art of reading, the art of meaning making.

And so it was like there are ways that you understood yourself. Are actually cut off from your context and that context will help you understand how these things came to be. And yeah, so not only did I get to pursue pretty rapid healing, that was not just therapeutic. It was like I talk about this on the Allen Center podcast, like things I didn't expect when healing from trauma.

And it was just kind of all these funny stories of like. All the body care, I had to tend to my gut sleep and you know, 'cause Seattle's one of those contexts where it's like, [00:24:00] oh, who's your acupuncturist? Not like, do you go to acupuncture? You know, it's like, who's your naturopath? Like, it was kind of just like very normal to have this very holistic care, which when you're healing from trauma and you've been in a more hyper religious context that says all those things.

You don't meet and if you do need them, you're not faithful or like they could be dangerous. It was just such a kind context. But I also think getting more tools, like I said, with the different education I had gotten to actually understand God to come back to the text, to imagine like what is a community of people?

Trying to follow in the way of Jesus. What could it look like? What's it meant to look like? Like being in an MIP program that said you have to take trauma seriously. We have to take the human experience seriously. We have to take our context seriously. Was also like deeply healing and restorative to [00:25:00] me to get to play in not just deconstruction, which I did, but to also be invited to imagine.

A way forward that didn't have to just be reactionary. 

Alison I love the word imagination, right? That imagining a whole different way of being with God and really in my mind is more biblical, more rooted in good theology, which is all. Who I am is invited into this process of wholeness. Right? I always talk about this, but I love the idea that soso, the word that we think of as salvation, that so gets so myopically, interpreted as sort of a one and done is actually more readily translated as healing. The work of healing. It's holistic, right? It's the moment at which we begin the healing journey. 

Rachael Clinton Chen And it has like a quantum reality to it, right? Like it's happening. It's is. It will continue to happen. 

Alison Yes, yes. Yeah. I love that. All of [00:26:00] this leads to Rachel, your work now, and thank you for kind of giving us that context, right?

Because I do think our work. Develops out of our contexts. To your point, this term spiritual abuse that we, I think more people are becoming familiar with. It's more talked about, but also many people maybe don't really understand what it means. And isn't that really a part of my journey? Isn't that for those extreme cases.

Of, you know, severe abuse or violence in the church. Kind of a very one dimensional view of what that means. How do you think about it? What are some common ways it shows up in churches, in faith communities? Help us segue a little bit about how you view spiritual abuse. 

Rachael Clinton Chen It's a great question, and I'm actually gonna start with one of your quotes because you recently posted something on Instagram that I think [00:27:00] actually captures the core of what spiritual abuse is.

You said all trauma causes you to question your worth, but spiritual trauma adds the terrorizing layer that God might question your worth too. I think at its core, spiritual abuse is such an attachment wound. It's a faith wound, it's a trust wound. I think the most simple way to think about spiritual abuse is this misuse or abuse of spiritual authority or power to harm, to control, to manipulate, to exploit, and like doing it in God's name.

So I often say like. Spiritual abuse can really, I mean, there's a bunch of people who say this, the Reclamation Collective, the Religious Trauma Institute, but this sense of like spiritual abuse can happen in any kind of relationship where there's a power differential and trust is being exploited. Where there's this sense of.

I have some spiritual authority. It can happen in a [00:28:00] family system. We see this a lot with the Bill Goard methodology of shining happy people like that was playing out a lot in family systems. Like the whole point was like the family system is like God's house is the church. It can happen in school settings, it can happen in nonprofit settings.

It could certainly obviously happen in churches. It really can range from the subtle to the extreme. So for the most part, yeah, when we think about spiritual abuse, we'll be like, oh, well someone escaped a cult Like that was clearly religious trauma. But it can also happen in like maybe you, I. We're a part of the nineties and the eighties and the two thousands purity culture movement, where you took in a certain ideology about your body, about your sexuality, that the more research that's coming out is showing that actually had very spiritually abusive harm because it tied a certain sense of morality and sexuality with salvation and worthiness of God.

Right? Like this question of like, does God. [00:29:00] Question my worthiness, like, am I beloved in God's eyes? 

Alison I think that's a really helpful framing, and I wanna just speak to the listener. I think sometimes one of the reasons when we're naming something, when we name something like spiritual abuse, we are not necessarily imputing abuser to the person.

Who, the context in which that happened. The reason I wanna say it, sometimes it is, sometimes there are context in which, and I, I think it's important, I'm gonna try to distinguish this because there's an important naming of, oh, this was an abusive environment. Maybe the people involved in this environment, if we separate out the really extreme cases, kind of believe some bad theology, and I know this in my own case, like.

I think there were good people who believed some bad theology, just like I did have at certain points in my life. And that doesn't take away from [00:30:00] that toxicity to my own inner system. And when we're talking about naming things, sometimes we can shy away from these words like abuse or trauma. Because it's like, well, that means I have to sort of throw out the baby with the bath water.

And I think that happens. I think people do do that. They start calling everything abuse or trauma, when in fact, what we're trying to do is name a reality. That's why I love how you talk about it. This is something that harmed my sense of God made worth in the name of God. That is inherently abusive regardless of the intentions.

I'm trying to find this nuance from the social media world.

Rachael Clinton Chen Yeah, it's hard. The social media world is really hard. One of my colleagues, Rebecca Vickery, she's a therapist, she's a part of the Purity Culture Research Collaborative. She's brought these frames to us in our work at the Allender Center, and I just think it's been so helpful and actually like exactly what we were speaking [00:31:00] to.

She brought these categories of abuse. They're like types of abuse, and so she talks about narcissistic abuse. Obviously we can look at that and go, there's some intentionality to that sadistic abuse. We know we're in the category of very explicit abuse and reenactment abuse. So she's talking about like, there may not actually be an intentionality to the abuse, like the intentionality might be really good.

It's where people are actually reenacting their own trauma. So where you have someone who comes from a very traumatic environment, a lot of chaos, they're gonna be really drawn to high dogma. Fight control context because it promises a lot of certainty. It promises clear boundaries. It promises belonging and goodness if you abide by the rules.

And so a lot of people have experienced spiritual abuse. Maybe their parents found themselves in a certain system because they really wanted something different for their children than what they had. They wanted something different for themselves, [00:32:00] and it's like. Spiritual abusive systems use a lot of grooming, use a lot of gaslighting.

So you get so far into this belonging before you realize, oh, maybe there's some things happening here that aren't that great, or maybe this system is actually perpetuating other forms of abuse because hierarchical structures might invite a narcissistic abuser. Or a sadistic abuser into the midst. So I think absolutely you're right.

It can get so tricky. It's that sense of like exactly what you said. It's not always about intention, it's about the impact. And so how do we reckon with the impact and honor our experience in our bodies and like. The trauma that needs to be tended to that might not always need to like point to a narcissistic abuser or a sadistic abuser in order to feel like our experience is valid or worthy of good care.

And that could be really confusing. And I do think we have a very kind of [00:33:00] reactionary social media culture that is, is actually moves more towards splitting, you know, as like a therapeutic frame than actually. Reclamation and recovery and a maybe more restorative justice that has imagination. And that has nuance and that has, it's not just a quick label, it's a, oh my goodness.

What I experienced was, regardless of context, I would say naming starts with yourself. All this, this was damaging to my soul and to my lived experience of myself as an image bearer. And then part of that reclaiming and that recovery process is also part two. Oh my gosh. That was a narcissistic culture, or oh my gosh, that was a sadistic culture.

Or oh my gosh, those were people that were caught up in something that they didn't even know they were caught up in. Right. There's, there's different ways to frame it and also, and [00:34:00] most of us who have experienced spiritual abuse also perpetrated, like spiritually abusive harm. Right? Because you're part of the system.

Like one of my colleagues talks about this with regard to purity culture, how she in her fear towards a friend who came out to her just. Pushed away and exiled. And how many of us hold stories where in order to stay in the belonging, we were harmful to other people, we, we might be a part of their stories.

And so how do we step into this place where the part of the healing is not just individual, it does move toward more of a collective, you know, restoration and repair. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I love how you're just. In this very real conversation speaking to that 'cause I also think that's where backlash can happen when we see people online who we know like, great thing you're calling all this out now, but I remember when you were the one doing all of this.

Right? And that can sort of do damage to some of this very important work of [00:35:00] naming. So yeah, I just appreciate how you are describing it even out of your own experience. Something happened here that did harm. And maybe some of those people didn't mean to hurt me. Maybe some of them did. It doesn't matter.

What's true is this was harmful. Yeah. And I mean for me, I think in 2018, Dan was like, would you wanna do a, a podcast with me on spiritual abuse? And I was like, that's a really weird term. Sure. We had done some stuff on like. Spiritual warfare, which I was like, that's crazy. But yeah, let's talk about it because that's been weaponized for people.

And also there's a place and a power in like contending with spiritual energy in the metaphysical world. So spiritual abuse to me was like, I kind of understand what you're talking about, but let's talk about it. And it was in the middle of this podcast where I was sharing about this. Experience being set up in a relationship with this youth leader.

I was sharing about this particular church we were at, which was so much more [00:36:00] fundamentalist than any other church we had been a part of, and how quickly the secure attachment I had with God that had always sustained me, even in the midst of so much developmental trauma, had always been this safe sanctuary started.

To get twisted and distorted and became so much more anxious and you know, like I couldn't fail. Failure became so much more, not an option with God. Whereas before that felt like the boundary lines were so much more expansive and it was like in the business conversation that all of a sudden I was like passionate about people.

Who have been harmed by the church or who have been harmed by religious authorities getting to have access back to God. That's how I would've talked about, like my sense of what drives me in this work with the Lander Center, and I'm in the midst of this conversation and all of a sudden I'm having that realization that's like, oh my gosh, like I'm passionate about it because it's my story.

[00:37:00] I want people to have liberation and reconnection and healing. Because that's what I needed in order to recover and reclaim this kind of sacred birthright, which is like this connection to the divine or to God that gets to exist in our bodies, in our mind, in our soul, and so. I think for me it was kind of like this is a new level of understanding, because I could have said, I've experienced clergy abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, these different things, but I had not seen the spiritually abusive elements at play that made the setup even more profound, that the impact got intensified and began to contaminate your attachment with God.

Alison Which is to use how you and Dan talk about spiritual warfare, which I love in the realm of evil.[00:38:00] 

AD BREAK 2

Rachel, for someone listening who maybe like you is kind of sensing something's off, but doesn't know how to give language to it in their spiritual environment. What are some internal cues or even some external red flags you encourage people to look for?

Rachael Clinton Chen Well, I will just name that we did create a very simple, it's not exhaustive resource at the Allender Center because of this, right?

Because in many ways, like spiritual abuse is, is hard to recognize 'cause it's the water we're swimming in. And also I would just say there are people. We're probably even more activated right now because I actually think we're seeing spiritually abusive power really amplified right now on a national stage, this fusion of religion with like political power that's actually very dehumanizing in many ways, and that's very confusing, right?

Because it's [00:39:00] supposed to be good things. You know, we're hearing this conversation like empathy is a sin, right? Like there's. Very confusing things at play from a national stage that are incorporating Christian religion and spirituality, Christian language, Christian symbols. So I, I say that more like if people are feeling like an extra activation right now and trying to make sense of why I.

Maybe there could be some grace and mercy to your body because it's pretty pervasive right now and very like in our face. But we created a self-guided checklist that is really just kind of to help you identify some science of the impact of spiritual abuse, maybe on your life or other people's life.

And you can download it at the Allender Center. I think you'll have the link in the show notes if something people want to check out, but it's kind of just taking you through. Different ways that maybe you might be experiencing spiritual abuse. And for me, one of the top signs that I'm always looking for is, do I feel safe when I'm thinking about talking to [00:40:00] God?

Do I feel permission to bring my full, authentic self? Or am I having to hide parts of myself? Now that gets tricky 'cause some of that's just in the realm of like bad theology, right? And would we say, oh, like that was intentional spiritual. I just think it's spiritually abusive to encounter bad theology.

It's assaulting the core of who you are and your relationship with God. Fair enough? Right? So I don't know if we have to make it as big of a thing, but, but notice. I remember for me vividly even recently, just being in a space where I was like, I need a code switch. It's not safe. I don't know what was happening, but I felt it.

It's different. In my mind that is a little different from being in a space where I'm like, I don't agree with everything that's being said here, but I'm connected to myself. I'm connected to God. I can hold on to myself. We can disagree about some of these things. Zen. It's not safe here. It is not safe here for me to be a woman with doctor in front of my name, or it is not safe here [00:41:00] for me to mention that I like this author.

You know, whatever the thing might be. And that's exactly what you're talking about, right? Like for you, you have more resourcing so you can code switch. But that sense of like, yeah, you are gonna be. Facing threats or coercion or you know, you might be cut off or scapegoated if you don't fit within these rigid boundary lines, or if you attempt to leave or you bring questions or doubts, right?

So where is fear and shame being exploited in ways that actually feel abusive, where you can't ask questions, you can't have doubts. If you aren't loyal to someone, then you're evil, right? Where there's just this kind of. Switch. Can you trust your gut? Do you have permission to have an internal wisdom or do you have to seek an authoritative.

Voice to make decisions like you may be in the midst of a spiritually abusive relationship or environment. Are you being subjected to other [00:42:00] forms of abuse but being told it's okay because the person in authority is good and they're really twisting their access to your care, right? So this kind of exploitation of care that's really grooming, right?

Grooming is ultimately attuning really well. To you and your needs, but without honor as a way to manipulate or exploit or get access to build trust, but then that gaslighting comes in, right? That kind of twists the truth or makes you question your own sense of reality. So for me, when I'm thinking about how we're trying to make sense of like, have I been experiencing spiritual abuse, is when I'm questioning my sense of reality, I'm struggling to trust my own body.

Other people trusting God. Certainly if you feel like you can't trust religious authority, you may have experienced some harm in a religious context. That's like a very good reason why you don't trust religious authority if decision making is really hard, because you [00:43:00] haven't really been given permission to have an internal compass or autonomy or a sense of agency.

So I think a lot of it has to do with a sense of personhood and trust. Yeah.

Alison Yeah. We'll link in the show notes to this free resource you guys have created, but it's, I'm listening to you going, that's what's so hard about it, is it's intentionally designed to be disorienting and so it's hard. The cues can't even be tricky and subtle to notice.

Rachael Clinton Chen It is, and that's part of why. It's really important to get closer to your own story and the particularities of what happened to you because you and I could have very similar experiences of like, let's say a theological system, you know, or a denominational theology, but we were in a relationship with different people.

We had different. Families and different nervous systems.

Alison And one [00:44:00] person based on their family experience, their nervous system just says, Ew, I'm outta here. Yeah. And another person, I have signs for red flags, like, yeah. And then another person's nervous system recognizes harm as, oh, this is very familiar to me.

This is what I'm used to. Even though it's not healthy for me, I do believe the soul has a bent toward healing. God designed it, and so there will be that dissonance. There will be that. Just that everything in me is saying, I know, even though my mind can't compute that, even just that dissonance that something doesn't add up is something in your soul that's a cue to notice and talk to somebody. Outside of the system about,

Rachael Clinton Chen yeah. And again, like what can be so painful is that this plays out not for everybody. Sometimes it plays out in a relationship with a clergy member or a family member, but [00:45:00] usually within a system that you have found some sense of belonging. And so that dissonance is gonna feel really threatening to the belonging if you are in a spiritually abusive system because you've seen other people act on their dissonance.

It has not gone well for them, right? They've either been scapegoated as problematic or bad, or they've been completely cut off or exiled, or they left because it got so painful, but you kind of feel like you can't be in a relationship with them because you know there might be something bad about them, why they leave the system.

So I just, there has to be a lot of grace and mercy to what we don't see when we're not ready to see it, because it maybe feels too threatening to. Some sense of goodness or belonging that we found. And so what happens for a lot of people that dissonance comes because either A, the dissonance gets loud enough or their sense of justice on behalf of another person starts to rise up.

Their children, a [00:46:00] friend, someone in the community actually facing abuse, that that comes to light or the system stops benefiting. It starts becoming more punitive, and then all of a sudden that sense of belonging you had. It's not enough to, you know, sustain you when you actually feel like you can't do anything, right?

Alison The rear view mirror -- I just want the listener to hear -- when you start to taste, you start to move toward goodness, and you start to move toward belonging where your differences are honored and where there's freedom, you just see it so much more clearly. In the rear view mirror. And so again, thinking of the listener who's maybe in that messy middle, right, of still trying to piece it together and still like, you know, I kind of like these people.

They know my kids and, and yet I don't feel like I can connect to God and I do feel this just isn't right. Some of what's happening or I do feel like I'm have to hide. Certain things.

Rachael Clinton Chen Yeah. I mean I do [00:47:00] actually think that there's something about in an environment where your sense of like human right-sizeness, right?

So whether that's being a person with a full range of emotions or being a person who in the midst of your faith, that's great. Honoring questions of God's character. You know, by the way, theologians from the beginning of time have been wrestling with great, deep questions that are worthy of wrestling with.

That's a very good thing, right? As parents, when we don't have all the answers, we don't just tell our kids like, well just stop asking questions. Like we get in it with them and what's the question bringing up and what's it connected to? So it's, I just think when I use the language of human size, for me that was a way to make sense of my complexity as a human, because so much of the spiritual abuse I experienced was my trauma that was manifesting only being seen and interpreted as sin.

So my anxiety being named a failure of faith, right? [00:48:00] Like you're just fearful and you know, the number one spoken. Phrase in the Bible is, do not be afraid. What I actually needed was merciful care to my body. I was getting, again, often from well-intentioned people, things being weaponized against me. So human sizeism for me is just a way to honor like we're humans and if we're in a A system where we're starting to see, this may not be a place I wanna be, but there's a lot of life connected there, I think.

There's no demand to move one way or the other as long as you are reclaiming a sense of your agency, not dismissing the truths that you see. So not deceiving yourself, because sometimes when we've been in a really fundamentalist environment. We can move out of that environment into a different kind of fundamentalism.

Right? We see that a lot. That's part of what you're speaking to on social media. We're seeing like a different brand of fundamentalism [00:49:00] that feels comfortable because you, here's who's in and who's out. I just, I do think for anyone listening who is starting to question their sense of like what they've been experiencing, starting to see more clearly, some things make connections.

If you're not under threat, you know, there's no shame in. Really trying to discern what kind of belonging you want to give up or not, right? Like I'm just a huge fan of like, there will come times where we have to make really courageous decisions. That might mean leaving a certain environment, or it might mean cutting off relationship with certain people who aren't willing to repair in a way that like they're still doing harm and we need to set some boundaries.

Or we have to step into more mystery than we've actually been spiritually formed to be able to tolerate like. There's no demand that we have to jump into these things until something necessitates that. So in the meantime, how do we [00:50:00] get to practice building muscles? So maybe you wanna stay in the community, but you wanna start bringing your critical thinking skills to what you're learning.

And maybe you're not ready to start like directly asking questions of the leadership, but you're making note of your dissonance in a way that's not dismissing it or silencing it. Those are like. Faithful acts in the small that have a huge dividend like Brene Brown's Trust. Trust Jar is kind of one of those, like it's a way that you're restoring trust within yourself, reclaiming parts of your mind that just.

Has a huge impact when we might be faced with decisions that feel so much more costly. That's so good. It's sort of cumulative. I love how you're describing that. You're sort of practicing the muscle of, I'm just gonna try small ways of honoring my own humanity. I think there's real wisdom in that, just noticing in that awareness and that attunement.

Alison I do think healing often comes in those micro. Movements that eventually might [00:51:00] lead to a major breakthrough or a major leave or a major. But it's starting right where you are. Just honoring even just inside of yourself or to one other safe person. I recently was with a handful of all Christians, new people.

I didn't know them. And one of the things that surprised me outta my own journey in this is what felt healthy to me. It is still a little bit like, wow, this is so healthy that I have to recalibrate it. But in my body, what feels like health is. Gosh, there was differences. People weren't self-censoring.

Different people, I could tell were coming from different denominations, different church backgrounds had different ideas about what's happening. Nobody was defaulting to easy labels. Everything was really nuanced and it was so interesting 'cause we had so much fun. We were laughing. I found myself being myself.

Maybe not unlike that group of people you encountered in Rwanda where you're just like. Gosh, what a delightful group of people. And then later going, I don't know where any of these people stand on any of these things. I just know, right? [00:52:00]  that everybody was being real and I felt safe, and we could say things and we could have real conversation and we could dig in.

And so you can kind of back your way into health and be like, wow, that I think is what health is. Because I think sometimes when we know what we're. Aiming for it can help us find it. What gives you hope today and how do you conceptualize a healthy spiritual system?

Rachael Clinton Chen Yeah, I mean, at the core, I imagine health as like you knowing and the depth of your being that you are beloved to God and that you can rest in that promise, that there's literally nothing you could do.

No power. That could separate you from that. Love that there's just some sense of like that is the truth. And yeah, I mean, a healthy spirituality to me really just feels mature when I think about development. It feels like there's [00:53:00] enough secure attachment for people in their relationship with God.

There's enough sense of feeling at home in your body, in yourself, that again, it's not the absence of activation or triggering, right? Like we know that healing from trauma is not, oh, we exile these parts of us, that they go away. It's like we radically welcome them in to where we just have a lot more choice when we get activated.

We have resources to tend, we have a capacity to come back. Into our prefrontal cortex and make decisions to have choice to have agency that we could listen to someone. We could say, oh, there's a lot of wisdom here. I'm gonna take this in. But if they bring things that we don't align with or agree with, we can say, Hmm, I'm gonna hold that.

I don't have to like throw it out, but I don't have to also like take everything in as like straight from the voice of God. So again, like a. A restoration of, or maybe even a development for the first time, right. A [00:54:00] capacity to critically think and to discern what your meant. You know, Aundi Kolber, I love how she says, take what you need because implied in that is like, and leave what you don't.

And I think some sense of being able to do that in spiritual environments and religious environments. For me is a part of what health and what we're meant for.

Alison Yeah, and back to your point about practicing, that's where if you're in a new environment, practice, put out a little breadcrumb to see what happens before you've dove into commitment.

You know, what happens if you say, I'm not sure about that, or I think about it a little differently. And again, that takes some core strength, but to see how that is responded to. Is that kind of way of showing up honored in that setting?

Rachael Clinton Chen Yeah. And how are power structures negotiated? Is there a transparency?

Is there a commitment to transformation and healing? Are there processes for repair when things don't go well? Because we are human and they won't always go perfectly are questions [00:55:00] welcome? You know, for me, Micah six, eight will forever be a rubric. Like, are we doing justice? Are we loving mercy? And is there a sense of humility?

And that's a more high level kind of philosophical frame, but I think for me, ultimately that is a measure of like, is this a healthy enough spiritual environment, theology or relationship?

Alison That's beautifully stated, Rachel, toward that end, boy, I just feel like you and I swim in so many of the same waters.

I feel like I could just have this conversation with you forever. You've got some really neat, really cool, and we talked about it at the top of the episode, but just tell people how to find more about what you guys are doing in this area for folks to help resource folks.

Rachael Clinton Chen We are, you know, you could find us theallendercenter.org, but we've really been trying to build out some spiritual abuse resources.

So we have some webinars that you can access. We have an online course that really was my love letter to like, how can I get a team of seasoned people who are also survivors to [00:56:00] together to provide a bunch of resources for people who wanna move at their own pace, in their own time? With reflection questions, with a robust resource guide, which you are a part of.

There are so many people committed to creating healing context, and so just wanting people to feel less alone. We have some workshops where you can come do some story work in person. There's also trainings if you're kind of finding like, oh, I wanna actually be more trauma informed. Obviously we have our own podcasts.

We've done some episodes, so you can find all of that . But mostly I'm just grateful to be a part of a larger community, committed to this work for various forms of harm. And what I find with healing is that healing from abuse is healing from abuse. Healing from trauma is healing from trauma, and we can pull and borrow from resources tending to really nuance particular things.

Alison So, so grateful for you and your work, and it's been such a. [00:57:00] Delights to talk with you. You're just a delight. It's about a really hard topic. I know, and that's what I love about what you're saying. There's so much joy in your presence and I love just that I'm a pastor at heart. You just Right. That was one of the first thing, and I feel that delight coming out of you and.

I'm just so grateful that you stayed true to how God made you, and now look at you creating all of these resources for people. I love what you guys are doing over there, and thank you for giving us so much of your time today. Rachel.

OUTRO

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You, it would mean so much If you take a moment to subscribe, you can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon music, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and click the plus or follow button that will ensure you don't miss an episode, and it helps get the word out to others while you're there.

I'd love it if you'd leave your five star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday, and remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others and you stay true to your God given self.

What happens when repair in your family isn’t possible—at least not yet?

‍

In this powerful follow-up to last week’s conversation on family pain, psychologist and author Dr. Joshua Coleman sits with me as we explore the heartbreak and complexity of family estrangement—from both sides of the story.

‍

With deep compassion and personal insight, Dr. Coleman shares what he’s learned through decades of research—and from his own journey as a parent who experienced estrangement from his adult daughter. Whether you're the one who stepped away from a parent or you're a parent who’s been cut off by a child, this conversation offers a rare, balanced look at a path to healing.

‍

Dr. Coleman shares:

• Why estrangement is rising—and what’s really behind it
• When a temporary break might be helpful
• What to do if your parent won’t take responsibility—or if your child won’t re-engage
• How humility (not humiliation) opens the door to healing
• Practical guidance for both adult children and estranged parents

‍

If you’ve ever wrestled with how to honor a parent who hurt you—or how to rebuild with a child who’s walked away—this episode is full of wisdom, hope, and next steps.

🖥 Learn more about Dr. Coleman’s work ⁠here⁠.

📚 Grab a copy of his book Rules of Estrangement ⁠here⁠.

If you liked this episode, you’ll also love:

• ⁠⁠Episode 161⁠⁠ — Finding Yourself without losing Yourself: Healing From Dysfunctional Family Patterns with Jerry Wise
• ⁠Episode 127⁠ — Healing Childhood Wounds: The Enmeshed Family & 5 Toxic Patterns that Affect Your Ability to Thrive in Adult Relationships
• ⁠Episode 85⁠⁠ — The Goal of a Healthy Family & 6 Roles We Take On In Dysfunction

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode⁠ here.⁠

💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

‍

Thanks to our Sponsors!

• Go to ⁠cozyearth.com⁠ and use code BESTOFYOU for 40% off best-selling temperature-regulating sheets, apparel, and more. Trust me—you’ll feel the difference the very first night.
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Connect further with Dr. Alison Cook:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/dralisoncook/

‍

Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

‍

Transcript:

Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm so glad you're here with me this week.

This is a conversation I've been wanting to bring to the podcast for a long time because I see this tension showing up again and again in the lives of people all around me, in friends, in people I work with, and in many of you who write to me.

Family can be a source of both incredible support and also of deep pain.

In fact, today's episode builds directly on last week's conversation with Jerry Wise, where we talked about self differentiation, which is just the essential process that we all have to go through of learning to stand in our own sense of self, , even as we remain connected to the people we love around us. And that process of self differentiation is something we [00:01:00] all have to navigate, but it's particularly challenging in the context of a family, that doesn't support you, that doesn't do their own work, that doesn't want to go down the path of growth with you.

And so today we're gonna zoom in on one of the most painful and complex phenomena we're seeing in our culture today. Its estrangement within families.

Over the holiday weekend, I was traveling and I downloaded some episodes of the television series, parenthood to watch on the plane, and I love that show. I think there's just a lot of profound moments in the series, but rewatching it, I was struck by how often family relationships include moments of rupture.

Even the best parents who are trying so hard to stay attuned to their children. Overreach, overextend, cross boundaries, make mistakes, misinterpret, misunderstand. There [00:02:00] are so many moments of rupture, even within the best families, and that show does a beautiful job of portraying both the many ways that we hurt each other in families and the power of those moments of repair when they happen.

Just those simple moments of repair. When a parent says to a child, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. I messed up. I didn't see you. Or when a child says to a parent, I'm sorry. I messed up. I made a mistake. Will you forgive me? Those moments of repair are just so powerful in a family because healthy parenting and healthy relationships aren't about never messing up.

They're about the willingness to repair.

But what happens when repair isn't possible? [00:03:00] What if a parent won't or can't for whatever reason own the harm they've caused? And what if you are a parent who's been cut off by an adult child and you've never been given a chance?

I. To repair. Is estrangement the only way forward or is there another path? As I've worked at the intersection of psychology and religion these past few decades, I've noticed that people of faith in particular, often go to two different extremes when thinking about these questions.

We often assume you just simply have to honor the commandment to honor your father and mother, but on the other extreme. Especially in our broader culture today, we're seeing a rising number of adult children cutting ties with their parents altogether for reasons that aren't always clear, or at times that may not warrant such a permanent decision, and

it can start to feel like these are the only two [00:04:00] options to remain enmeshed and hurt. Or to walk away entirely. And that's why I wanted to talk with today's guest, Dr.

Joshua. Coleman Josh is a psychologist, and one of the leading voices in the country on the topic of family estrangement. He brings such a rare depth of insight, not only from his work with families, but also from his own experience as a father who went through a season of a estrangement with his adult daughter.

His books When Parents Hurt and Rules of Estrangement offer a compassionate, deeply nuanced look at how these rifts occur and what it might take when both parties are willing to begin the long work of repair.

Whether you've ever wondered what it really means practically to honor a parent who's hurt you, or you're someone who's been cut off from your child and aching. To understand why and what [00:05:00] you can do about it, or if you're just trying to navigate the complexities of family without swinging to either of these reductive and overly simplified extremes.

This episode is for you. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Joshua Coleman.

INTERVIEW

[00:05:19] Alison Cook: One of the reasons, Josh, that I, I just really wanted to have you on today is you speak with such nuance to this topic of family estrangement. A lot of my audience, by way of introduction, comes from faith backgrounds. They've grown up in churches, many of my listeners belong to churches. So one of the things I wanna kind of flush out with you today on the podcast is what I see as sort of these extremes. 

In my work as I have been working as a clinician in some of this area, in my own degrees in psychology and religion, sometimes in religious communities there can be a sort of honor thy father and mother [00:06:00] almost, right? You, you have to stay loyal to the family system even when the system is hurting you.

[00:06:06] Joshua Coleman: Yep. 

[00:06:09] Alison Cook: And a big part of my work is reframing that. What does it really mean to honor a father and mother, especially when there's been harm? What does that really mean? Right? When we need

[00:06:21] Joshua Coleman: Yeah.

[00:06:22] Alison Cook: to differentiate and disentangle from that. On the other side of that, we're seeing, and I'd love for you to speak to this, in the broader culture, especially in the younger generation, just an incredible number of people kind of divorcing their families, for lack of a better word, for maybe not-necessary reasons. And there's this sort of alienation and isolation and we're going too far to sort of leaving some of these institutions and systems that we do need some tether to. So that's kind of how I came to you.[00:07:00] 

I thought, gosh, who's speaking to this in a way that honors that? Sometimes we do need to address what's hard in families of origin and also we don't wanna kind of throw out the baby with the bath water. So with that long preface, I'd love to hear from you, what are you seeing in the culture at large? How did this topic become of interest to you?

[00:07:18] Joshua Coleman: Yeah. Well, we'll start with how the topic became of interest. You know, I, it was through a personal experience. I was married and divorced in my twenties, and I have a, adult daughter who I'm very. Close to, uh, but there was a period of time in her early twenties where she cut off contact with me for a couple years and large part owing to my becoming remarried, having children in my second marriage and her feeling in many ways, displaced.

And you know, when she wanted to talk to me about it, to kind of complain about what that was like for her, I wasn't really well equipped to listen as empathically and as responsibly as I should have. And so she became more and more distant until she stopped talking to me. And it wasn't until I really.

Realize I needed to [00:08:00] radically change how I was approaching her, uh, that she began to turn back towards me and we were able to, to heal the distance. Um, but at the time there was nothing written to help me and I wasn't therapy with, you know, very successful psychoanalyst who gave me terrible advice as so many therapists do in this space.

Because if you haven't been through it, you kind of just don't know. So I realized that there was a need for a book on the topic. So I wrote my first book on the topic in 2007 when parents hurt Compassionate Strategies when you and your grown child don't get along. And as a result of that, got a wide following of parents here who were estranged in other countries.

And as a result of that, started doing a free Q and a every, other Monday. 'cause I just couldn't handle the volume of emails I was getting. Then I started doing a webinar series, which I. Continue to, to this day, every Tuesday night, four 30 Pacific. and I have a newsletter which is also free 'cause there's just so much information parents need and I don't wanna limit it just to people who can, you know, afford my private therapy rate.

 so on the [00:09:00] basis of that. All of that data. I did a survey of 1600 estranged parents, which I published in several peer reviewed articles and wrote my more recent book, rules of Estrangement, why Adult Children Cut Ties and How to Heal the Conflict. And so now I'm, all I'm doing is seeing estranged parents mostly, um, and adult children who, who are interested in reconciling and, and that kind of thing.

 but to back out to your, your second question. What am I seeing? Yeah, I think that that there's been an enormous cultural shift in the past half century where, you know, honored thy mother and thy father, respect thy elders families forever, has given way much more to this emphasis on personal happiness, personal growth, identity, protecting my mental health, establishment of boundaries.

And so often the generations are talking past each other. You know, older generations are saying, well, what about Ony mother and my father and everything that I did for you and respect your elders And younger generations are saying, no, that ship has, has sailed. It's really like, you know, [00:10:00] you can't have a relationship with me that's in line with my ideals for happiness and mental health.

Not only don't I want it, but I, it's would be ridiculous of me to have it. So a lot of my work is helping parents learn how to speak that language. 'cause so many of them haven't been raised with that, that language. And so many of them say, you know, my kids saying that they were emotionally abused.

I can show them when an emotional, abusive household looks like I grew up in that. What I, what they got was a walk in the park, which, you know, doesn't really advance their cause, but

[00:10:30] Alison Cook: which might be true on one hand and is not helpful toward the ends of reconciliation. So, I want the listener to hear you've got some fantastic resources for parents who have experienced estrangement where their kids, adult children have cut ties. Before we get there, I'd love to hear your take because you have such a nuanced approach.

When do you think estrangement is warranted? When do you think there is a time, whether it's a season, when do you think it is appropriate to, to cut ties?[00:11:00] 

[00:11:00] Joshua Coleman: Well, in the same way that I would tell parents that it is their duty to do due diligence on their children's complaints and, uh, you know, to find the colonel, if not the bush of truth, and to understand why their adult child is turning away from them and what they're trying to establish In doing that, I think adult children also need to do their due diligence with the parents.

It's not enough to go to therapy and have your therapists say, well, your mother's a narcissist, your dad's a narcissist, or they can't be helped, or It's hopeless. You know, you actually have to be willing for your therapist to contact the parent and see if they're willing to work on it or do family therapy or give your parents time to grow and change.

And not to approach them by saying, my therapist thinks you're a narcissist. I learned that you were emotionally abusive. I mean, it's fine to have all of those beliefs. You know, many parents are. Abusive, and it's not like those parents don't, don't exist 'cause they do. But it's not going to really motivate or allow the parent to give you what you want or may need from that parent in order to [00:12:00] be a better parent or even heal the hurt and the harm that they've caused.

It's really hard for any parent to hear the ways that they've failed. Their children. Uh, and defensiveness is a natural, it's an unproductive response, but it's a very natural response to hearing that. So if your goal is a better relationship with your parent, you really do need to spend some time, giving them time to change and to tell them what you don't like and to kind of let them know if they're not getting it.

Look, I just can't. Have a relationship with you. If you can't be more sensitive to me in this regard, whatever it is that they're being so insensitive about, and if, if, over the next few months you're not able to show more empathy or insight around this with me, then, then I need to take a serious break from our relationship Now when I counsel.

People to take a break. I don't really think anybody should take a permanent break. 'cause I think that sometimes parents don't get the message until there's been an estrangement. You know, it's kind of like some parents need to be sort of, you know, smacked upside the head to get, get [00:13:00] with the program, but then once they've actually been through it, they can kind of say, oh, okay, I, I get it.

I'm willing to do whatever. Right. Um, so I think, you know. Adult children should reach back out after, after a year. And, and part of the reason I say that is that, you know, there's so much in the media about abusive parents. There was an article yesterday or Sunday in the New York Times about another person who cut off their abusive mother and they're happy for it.

And there's that book by Jenny McCarty, I think called, I'm Glad My mother's Dead. And, there's so much in the media about. Kind of legitimizing, estrangement and you know, like we're saying there, there are cases for it, but there are so many estrangements that don't occur because of parental abuse.

And there's not enough information out there about how heartbroken these parents are and how heartbroken they are as grandparents. 'cause they're typically cut off from contact with the grandchildren as well.

[00:13:50] Alison Cook: Yeah, it's, it's really polarized. it's as if there's only two options— relationship or no relationship. when I talk about boundaries, I'm a big proponent of let's face reality. Let's name what's real, what can I do. You know, can I send a monthly email?

[00:14:08] Joshua Coleman: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:09] Alison Cook: Maybe that is the only way I can have a relationship, right?

But there's a lot of material in that middle ground between no contact ever and we have to spend every holiday together and talk on the phone every week. I think most people don't fall in either of those two extremes.

[00:14:28] Joshua Coleman: No, I totally, totally agree with you. And I think that because of cell phones, you know, every parent is just within a, you know, a click away from their children in ways that wasn't the case when you and I were growing up. I'm sure I, but quite a bit older than you. but you know, I mean, my parents, when I moved out here to California from Dayton, Ohio, I mean, you know, it took me.

Two weeks to drive out here with friends. And I wasn't like calling them every other day or sending them pic and I couldn't send them pictures. Um, you know, maybe after two weeks I called them, collect and spoke to them for 10 minutes, let 'em know I [00:15:00] arrived safely. But now parents can reach their kids from anywhere in the world within seconds.

And it really crowds the environment for so many adult children and so many kind of feel like they're getting too much so. the word that I see in every single letter from every single strange adult child is you need to respect my boundaries. And you know, part of it is just that parents are allowed and have been more in intrusive.

In some ways it comes from a loving, caring, anxious, guilt-ridden place. But you know, if you're on the other end of it's the adult child, it doesn't necessarily feel that way. It just feels like intrusion.

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[00:15:31] Alison Cook: There are lots of boundaries you can set that, like you're saying. I think that's really a good point in this modern era of don't follow me on social media. That is I, and I can enforce that. You don't get a say or you know, I won't do text related, you know, there are lots of these, so, so I just wanna put that out there for a listener.

 and again, there are cases, I have friends, I've had clients who have to go no contact for very good reasons. That does happen, and also there are many [00:16:00] situations. Where we can find a more nuanced approach. So a couple of things you've said that are really important for adult children who have a tough relationship with their parents or recognizing ways they've been hurt.

 I loved how you said this. You said a couple things. Don't just talk to one. Therapist who has only met you and only heard your story maybe in, see if that therapist would be willing to meet with your parents, maybe try family therapy. It might not work, but due diligence, kind of look at it from different angles.

It's a big deal, is what I'm hearing you say. It's a big deal

[00:16:31] Joshua Coleman: It's a really big deal.

[00:16:32] Alison Cook: cut off. and so I hear you saying, you know, give it some weight, give it some discernment, and then I heard you say very clearly do it for. A specific period of time. First, if you feel like, man, this is going nowhere.

They are not hearing me.

[00:16:48] Joshua Coleman: Give it a year. I heard you say even, you know, take a year and just say, I need this time, and then we'll revisit. Because there's some, you know, it's almost like a timeout. No, it is like a timeout. That's [00:17:00] well, well said. And it gives everybody a chance to calm down and it gives parents a chance, hopefully to, to realize that you mean business if you're the adult child doing it. And I think it's really helpful for parents to know that the adult child is gonna reach out within a certain time.

Because so many of the parents I work with, they're like, well, what if I never hear from my child again? You know, what if I never see my grandchildren? And what if I, how will they know that I've changed? I am changing, I'm doing therapy. You know, I, I now see. But how will they ever know that? And so, you know, I think giving the parent another chance is really critically important.

[00:17:31] Alison Cook: Yeah. If you don't mind my asking, how did that happen with your daughter? Was there a set period of time and then you decided to reengage?

[00:17:40] Joshua Coleman: Well, I was sort of trying to reengage, you know, all the way through. I just wasn't doing a very good job of it. So you know, it was, wasn't until I. Talked about the situation with the consultant to my practice. I mean, if your listeners may know that as therapists, we often have a consultant who we'd bring our difficult cases to, you know, every week to get [00:18:00] advice.

 and so one time I just said, look, I wanna talk about a really difficult I. Case, and that's me and I wanna get your advice. Uh, and she was really the first person to say, you need to shut the heck up and stop defending yourself and stop explaining and stop being defensive and stop getting mad, and just empathize and take responsibility 'cause you're not doing that.

So it just feels to her like you're really not hearing her. So, you know, it really wasn't until then that that things began to shift. And I think it's true for many parents, it's not necessarily true. It's not. , you know, for the parents who are out there, it isn't like any one thing I can advise is gonna work for every single parent.

Sometimes the adult child, it just isn't ready for a variety of reasons. Some 

but being willing to take responsibility, make amends, not be defensive, hear it from the child's perspective, those are really the key necessary steps. Even if they're not sufficient, I.

[00:18:50] Alison Cook: So let's talk about this. Part of what we're talking about here is power, right? a parent has power over a child as they grow up, which is why those [00:19:00] wounds can be so damaging because as children, right? There is a power differential. And what happens as we become young adults is, and suddenly like, oh, we have some power here.

Which isn't all bad, right? There's some, I have some power here to say I'm not okay with this. And so then the parent is scrambling to go, okay, now do I still have power? Do I use my old means? How do I change? And so I can imagine this is where parents whose kids are coming to them saying this isn't working. Really can get stuck to your own point of your own story. So let's start there. How would you coach a parent who is in that kind of rumble, they're wanting to defend, they don't like it. They feel disempowered. They're like, but how, how can I?

And so they're doing all the wrong things in a way to try to get some of that feeling of control. Solet's go there. What are some of the wrong things that we do? And then what are the things we can do?

[00:19:59] Joshua Coleman: Yeah. Well, I mean the, the most wrong thing you can do is to fail to realize that nothing compels your adult child to have a relationship with you beyond whether or not. They wanna have a relationship with you, so it's going to necessarily be on their terms. You're not gonna have the same kind of power that maybe your parents had over you.

Uh, or maybe you feel like you should, and if you were a better parent than your own parents were and you better generous and helped your child in all kinds of ways. You may feel entitled to a certain degree of power and influence over them, but, but your adult child gets, they get the final say on whether or not they're gonna be in relationship with you.

So, complaining about it probably isn't going to work. And being willing and able to shift into this newer model of family, which has more in line with romantic relationships than it does with prior parent adult child relationships. Meaning it has to be sensitive to the other person. It has to take place in a context of personal growth.

It has to be, identified with, that person's goals for happiness and their mental [00:21:00] health, et cetera. or you're, the adult child's gonna say, well, I'm not willing to play, by those rules, so see ya.

[00:21:07] Alison Cook: Okay, so, so first of all, understanding this is a new playbook of family. My young adult children are operating in many ways under different norms than I was, and

[00:21:20] Joshua Coleman: That's right.

[00:21:21] Alison Cook: so just accepting that radical acceptance, this is the reality.

[00:21:25] Joshua Coleman: This is reality. Yep,

[00:21:26] Alison Cook: Okay. And so to the parent who's hearing that going, but that feels like I'm giving up, know, it may feel like at first you're, you're sort of surrendering, but that would be part of the parent's work is then to go talk through what that stirs up in them with another therapist, with their own therapist.

[00:21:43] Joshua Coleman: Right. No, it's true. And, you know, not to overdo the parallel between romantic love, but, you know, and we fall in love with somebody and we marry them. I mean, part of what we have to do is accept the ways that we can't get them to change, and we have to accept their limitations, and we have to accept that they're not gonna be able to meet every need of ours.

And they probably [00:22:00] aren't, aren't necessarily gonna be able to, do all the things that we want them. To do, et cetera. And the same is true if we want a close relationship with our adult children, that may require a certain kind of grieving, that the relationship isn't gonna look like what you, wanted it to look like.

And if your kid has issues, if they have mental health issues, or if they're married to somebody who's troubled, or your divorced and your ex is poisoning them against you, or, uh, you know, the therapist has persuaded them that everything's your fault, you know you're gonna have even less power. So you have to really come to terms with that.

[00:22:31] Alison Cook: Yeah. And, coming to terms with that. I would say the first way to do that is not to try to get your young adult child to understand that unfortunately, that is not, you're gonna have to come to terms with that through processing the grief. I like how you used that word, grief. 

Just as in a marriage when you realize, oh, this person is not who I thought they were. You don't necessarily want to process that with them initially.

[00:22:55] Joshua Coleman: Exactly.

[00:22:55] Alison Cook: grieve that with someone else if you want to keep the relationship [00:23:00] intact.

[00:23:00] Joshua Coleman: Exactly. Yeah, they're very, very similar in that way. And we all have limitations. We as parents and our children as well in terms of what they can provide for us. And you know, I do think that because parents have largely done a better job and spent more time raising their children, probably spent more money.

Than prior generations. I think that they kind of come into the adulthood sort of hoping and assuming it's gonna be a really close relationship where there's gonna be a lot of gratitude and you know, it's just kind of luck of the cards. I mean, maybe you're gonna get that, maybe you're not, but if you're not, you can't insist on it 'cause it's just gonna turn your child away.

[00:23:33] Alison Cook: So what role does apology and accountability play for a parent? So we've accepted new terms, maybe done some work. What does the role of apology and accountability play in rebuilding an estranged relationship? I.

[00:23:49] Joshua Coleman: Yeah, I think it's huge. Um, you know, I always tell parents if they're estranged or. Start by writing a letter of amends where they take responsibility, where they find the kernel, if not the bush of truth in the children's complaints [00:24:00] where they don't try to explain, if they don't defend themselves, they don't blame other people.

Uh, it's just kind of a straightforward, yeah, I could see how this would be healthier for you to do, or why, why you have, based on these actions or behaviors. On my part, it's not an easy thing for parents to do, but that kind of courageous accountability can be much more compelling to an adult child than.

You know, that's something that's where you, the parent doesn't go there and just sort of insists that the adult child's being mean or unfair or not, you know, being appreciative of all the things the parent did for them. So, so accountability and, amends, which, you know, may not necessarily even be an apology per se.

I mean, some parents really don't know why the adult child has cut them off. And what I always tell parents is to say is something like, well, it's clear that I have significant blind spots. As a parent or as a person that I don't have a better understanding, but I would like to know more. And would you feel comfortable writing me or telling me I promise to listen or read purely to understand and not to defend myself?

 or if you wanna do family therapy, I would welcome that as well. [00:25:00] So, you know, just kind of like, it's a big sort of invitation to, to talk more and be close, but close in this new, much more kind of psychological way

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[00:25:09] Alison Cook: Yeah, and, and really meaning that part of the radical acceptance is you're not, dangling that as a hook. So that, then when they come, you're, you're gonna go ahead and do all the you, you've gotta be ready, you've gotta be ready. 'cause that does take some core strength to be able to set aside our own, ego and, and to really honor that.

 no matter how unfair I think this is there's definitely gonna be kernels of truth. And being really willing to own all that. there’s that fine line of having the dignity of your own personhood while still honoring the mistakes that you've made.

[00:25:49] Joshua Coleman: Yeah, I know what I tell parents is it's about humility, not humiliation. And you know, I'll sometimes see on some of the forums parents saying, well, I'm not gonna grovel. And Coleman expects me to just keep apologizing and [00:26:00] apologizing and, you know, I'm not apologizing for anything. I didn't, I was gave that kid an incredible, really good life.

And, you know, that's why I say it's about humility, not humiliation. Because humility basically says that we all do have blind spots. Um, so we may feel, like. We could even objectively look like we were a great parent and our kids could objectively feel like they wish we'd done something different. You know, been much more involved or much less involved, you know, or push them harder or push, didn't push them as much, whatever it is, and sort of just insisting that they're wrong.

And you're right. I mean, that doesn't persuade anybody. You know, like if we just go back to the couples model, I mean, it's all about. Empathy and understanding. It's not about who's right and who's wrong, so that's why I think it's useful for parents just to go look. I, I guess I have blind spots that I wasn't aware you felt that way, but I'm glad you told me.

I'm sorry that my behavior caused you to feel, so whatever it is, hurt, neglected, misunderstood, you know, et cetera.

[00:26:54] Alison Cook: Yeah.

[00:26:55] Joshua Coleman: But it is hard. It is hard for parents. Not all parents can can do it. because some parents will say, [00:27:00] well, I, what about my own integrity? If I'm apologizing for something I didn't do, and I'm,, I mean, if the things you did do, which if you're like every single parent in the world, there are things that you did do.

You should start there for starters. but if you don't really understand, you know, it's just basic humility to say that, there are clearly things that I got wrong 

[00:27:18] Alison Cook: And in any relationship, I think, you know, my, my kids are, entering into young adulthood and I try to make a regular practice of going to them and saying, I'm so sorry. I was kind of a jerk last night. it, you're modeling something at the very least. And I try not to do that, to get something from them.

I try to do that 'cause it's true. And it's good for me and regardless of whether they care. So half the time they're like, I didn't really care, or, you know And so I think also parents can look at it as a, this is good for me. It's good for me to embark on a journey of a really good, healthy practice of, I love that humility, not humiliation.

You know, this, this wasn't great and it's good for me to say that too.

[00:27:54] Joshua Coleman: no, you're right. It's not only good, good role modeling and good parenting, it actually feels. [00:28:00] Better. Ultimately, as hard as it is to write in a amends letter, as hard as it is to apologize or to try to repair or be accountable, ultimately, you know, it stays in the dark, grows in the dark. you know, most of us know the kind of mistakes that we made with our children, and particularly if it's with a child who's.

You know, turned away, it can be therapeutic to just call a spade. A spade go, yeah. Hell yes. I was, I was that way. You know, that's why in aa, I think it's the eighth step, they talk about make a fearless and searching moral inventory of your character flaws. And partly it's because in AA they know that all the things that you keep in the dark, stay in the dark and have this kind of corrosive effect on your self-esteem and resilience.

[00:28:37] Alison Cook: I love that reference to aa. I work in a lot of IFS and we talk about taking the U-turn. No matter what it is, no matter how painful it is, there's always an opportunity to look inside yourself along the lines. With aa, there's always that opportunity to go, what can I take a look at? You know, there's always something.

And that is actually for my good. Hopefully it will restore this [00:29:00] relationship. yeah, I love that. that step in AA is a great reference.

[00:29:03] Joshua Coleman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's so important that ability.

[00:29:07] Alison Cook: What would you say to parents who feel like they have done everything that they can and their child just isn't gonna engage, they're just gone. What would you say to those parents?

[00:29:20] Joshua Coleman: Well, I have a lot of those in my practice. 'cause not all adult children are able and willing to reconcile no matter how perfectly the parent has, reached out to them, including with my guidance sometimes. And I tell them, well, we have to help you to not have it be a blight on your life, which is harder for moms in particular.

Moms, you know, tend to feel like, well there must be something else I can do, you know, and if I can't solve this, this means I'm a Not only a terrible mother, but a terrible person. And I say, no, you have to, you have to reclaim your life. Your kid gets a vote, but you're the CEO of your life. They don't get to have, be the ultimate decider about who you are as a parent and as a person.

 and a lot of parents, moms in particular were also the sort of turn away from the form of [00:30:00] things that gave them value and meaning because they felt like, well, what right do I have to a happy life if I don't have my child or my grandchildren in it? It is gonna be a life with a certain degree of pain in a certain way.

You have to like, you know, again, it's radical acceptance. It's like having a chronic, back ache or something, or some other kind of a medical condition. Or maybe you're in a bad marriage, you can't leave or don't wanna leave. And so there's sort of a chronic feeling of unhappiness and dissatisfaction that's just a part of your life.

You just wanna make sure that it's not the only part of your life or that it doesn't define you and become the whole part of your life.

[00:30:31] Alison Cook: That's good. That's well stated. Yeah. And, and this is true for all of us who are parents. It is true for all of us. We do have identities separate from that role. It just takes it to another level. And there is again, that word grief, that ongoing grief. I would love to just end on a note of as we're kind of talking about some of what's hard.

Why is this relationship worth. Fighting for both for , you know, young adults [00:31:00] of parents and also for the parents. Why is this valuable and why is it that we're losing something a little bit when we move too far away? Again, I get that sort of the pendulum swings of culture. you know, there was a lot of enmeshment.

We weren't allowed to name things that were hard in families of origin years long before I was born. Right? Where, there was some of this. So then the pendulum is that, you know, now we're just gonna kind of blow up the system. why is this worth fighting for and why is it important?

[00:31:25] Joshua Coleman: Yeah, I don't never need to convince parents of that. 'cause they already know because there's so much pain. But for the adult child, well, there's several ways to think about it. I mean, one is the vast majority of adult children, when they cut off contact with a parent, they cut off access to the grandchildren as well.

You know, to the parent who's the grandparent and often they'll say, well, it's not good for me, it's not good for my kids. And you know, there's a lot of people who are really, really good grandparents who maybe weren't that great as a parent, but they can still bring enormous value to grandchildren.

 and some of these grandparents were very involved in grandchildren's lives before they were cut off. And [00:32:00] so, you know, they're actually hurting their own children by. cutting off access to a loving decent grandparent, A B, it also can allow the grandparent the ability to repair some of the ways that they might not have been as good as parents.

And that might be good for you to see that they can do that. Although some adult children say, well, It's sort of infuriating for me in a way to see how good they could be with my own kids. How come they couldn't be there, you know, for me in the same way. And it's kinda like, well, it's a different role being a grandparent, but also if you cut off access to your parents and their grandchildren, I mean that also, it 

 makes families more fragile. It means that your children probably aren't gonna have as much access to their cousins because typically estrangement is a cataclysmic event, meaning that, not only grandparents and grandchildren, often if the parents are still together, it can create a lot of tension in their marriage.

 cousins may get cut off from seeing other cousins, siblings typically become divided, some with the estranged child, sibling, others with the parents. So it's a pretty serious event, and I think it just makes people. That much more. I mean, some people say no [00:33:00] best thing I ever did, I feel much, so much happier and more resilient.

And if you go on the, some of the forums like Reddit, that's not an uncommon thing that you see now, whether that's gonna be true, you know, in 10 years or so, whether that's gonna be better for their children, I. I don't think we know. I mean, my general concern is that as a society we're becoming much too kind of defracted and atomized.

We have rising rates of mental illness. I think that's in part because there's this ongoing feeling of mistrust. We're very preoccupied with our own boundaries and not thinking as much about kind of the more independent nature that of identity and, So I think we're suffering as a society by this like, I mean, again, yes, there are places for legitimate places for estrangement, but I, I do feel like particularly people in our field these days, I feel like are a little too quick to recommended it or endorse it or not provide enough tools towards reconciliation.

[00:33:49] Alison Cook: Yeah, it's interesting listening to you, Josh. It's in some ways the same invitation for the parent is for the young adult who's grieving what they didn't get from a [00:34:00] parent. Is that sort of radical acceptance, is that sort of resilience of I may never get what I really wanted. Um, and then that, that process of, you know, kind of shedding. What I maybe even deserved from a parent and didn't get, and again, we're not talking about extreme situations here 'cause those do exist, but also the muscles and the internal core strength that comes from, again, that more nuance of boundaries that we kind of do with our friends sometimes where there's sort of that, you know.

You know, you kind of come up with a new category. This, this is a human that matters. I'm connected to this human. Um, maybe I let go of this idea of mother or father that they weren't, and that's just what's true. And I can kind of adopt this other way. Like there's some creativity, right? When we honor that there is something to those bonds that do matter and, and we all have to kind of go through that process of kind of that dance of our individuality, but our connectedness.

Both things are are [00:35:00] important.

[00:35:00] Joshua Coleman: No, I think it's super well said, and I like how you're, how you're framing it, that, you know, there's a lot of growth that can happen in, in learning how to be with a parent who, isn't your ideal, who didn't really raise you in the way that you wish that you had, and landing on a compassionate note.

With that, you know, kind of like they really did the best that they could based on their own traumas or deprivations or who they were married to, or their socioeconomic status or, you know, or who we were as children, you know, because children are not, they're not like neutral players in this. There are, you know, difficult children who bring their own temperaments to the equation.

 so it's an opportunity if, your goal is personal growth, and I think younger generations. That is their goal. Then this provides you with a really rich opportunity to learn how to be in the presence of your parent and not be so triggered and not have to be so rigid about your boundaries and your limits and all that.

[00:35:48] Alison Cook: Yeah, that's a good point. That's an invitation to growth, that's a pretty sophisticated skill of emotional intelligence, right? To be able to understand what's hard, to kind of, again, I think about the [00:36:00] parts model, like a part of me as really unhappy here. And also I can lead myself through it.

[00:36:05] Joshua Coleman: Right.

[00:36:05] Alison Cook: that's really a great feeling too. That's very liberating. 'cause there's a lot of difficult people in the world.

[00:36:09] Joshua Coleman: There are, right, and I think in some ways it makes us less resilient if we're just constantly setting back. It looks empowered, it looks virtuous. You know, I'm cutting off these toxic people. I'm only surrounding myself with people who let me. But I mean, you know, first of all, it's probably. It doesn't make you more resilient.

I mean, we know from cognitive behavioral research that the things that make you anxious or afraid, you're better off kind of going towards and learning how to tolerate those feelings rather than to just kind of never, you know, involve yourself with them. And I think the same is true with our family relationships.

[00:36:40] Alison Cook: Well, I so appreciate all these resources you're providing. Tell my listeners where they could find you if they wanna take advantage of, of some of these great things you're doing.

[00:36:48] Joshua Coleman: Sure, yeah. I'm probably the best place is my website, triple W dot dr joshua coleman.com. That's D-R-J-O-S-H-U-A-C-O-L-E-M-A-N.com. I just started a substack [00:37:00] recently called Family Troubles. I. So you can find me on Substack. but my newsletter, you can send it for my free newsletter on my website and that goes out, you know, four times a week and it's got lots of, free articles in there about estrangement and if there's other things that I'm doing or you know, podcasts, et cetera.

So that's probably the best place to find me.

[00:37:18] Alison Cook: That's great. We'll link to all that in the show notes. I, I am just so grateful to have come across your work and grateful for what you're doing.

[00:37:24] Joshua Coleman: Well thank you. It was really great to talk to you.

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What do you do when your family is the source of your deepest wounds? How do you hold onto your identity without cutting off the people who raised you?

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In this transformative conversation, therapist and relationship coach Jerry Wise discusses the concept of self-differentiation—a powerful framework for healing from family dysfunction without shame or blame.

‍

Whether you’re navigating complex family ties, considering going no contact, or simply longing to feel more like you, this episode offers a clear path forward rooted in wisdom, compassion, and courage.

‍

Jerry shares:

• His own journey from dysfunction to emotional clarity
• Why cutting ties doesn’t always lead to healing—and what might
• How to spot when you’re still emotionally enmeshed (even with distance)
• Practical steps to stop reacting and start reclaiming your sense of self

‍

If you’ve ever felt stuck in old family roles, overwhelmed by guilt, or confused about how to move forward with—or without—your family, this episode will meet you with both empathy and actionable insight.

‍

🖥 Learn more about Jerry’s work: ⁠Jerry Wise Relationship Systems⁠

📺 Watch his ⁠free training⁠ and explore his ⁠self-differentiation course⁠

‍

If you liked this episode, you'll love:

• ⁠Episode 147⁠ — The Hidden Trauma of Being the Chosen Child & a Path Toward Healing—Making Sense of Your Family Story
• ⁠Episode 127⁠ — Healing Childhood Wounds—The Enmeshed Family & 5 Toxic Patterns that Affect Your Ability to Thrive in Adult Relationships
• ⁠⁠Episode 85⁠⁠ — The Goal of a Healthy Family & 6 Roles We Take On In Dysfunction

‍

Thanks to our Sponsors!

• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at ⁠betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU⁠ and get on your way to being your best self.
• Go to ⁠AquaTru.com⁠ and enter code BESTOFYOU at checkout to get 20% OFF any AquaTru purifier!‍
• Go to ⁠⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
• Visit⁠ ⁠GoGeviti.com⁠⁠ to learn more about how you can start optimizing your health without leaving home today and use code BESTOFYOU.

‍

Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

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Episode Transcript

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ALISON Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of the Best of You. Today I am introducing a special two part series on a topic that runs deep for so many of us family pain, how we navigate the wounds of our families of origin, and how we begin to heal. One of the things that sparked my interest in this series is a growing body of research pointing to a sharp rise in family estrangement, particularly among younger [00:01:00] generations.

Some studies show that nearly one in two adults in the US. Are estranged from a close family member with many citing emotional boundaries, political divisions, or personal growth as the reasons Gen Z in particular is leading the way in reevaluating and sometimes stepping away from family ties altogether.

It's a painful and complex trend that raises profound questions. When is it necessary to distance ourselves from family and are there other paths to healing even when full restoration or understanding isn't possible? I wanted to explore this spectrum of family pain through two different but equally thoughtful perspectives.

In part one, I'm joined by Jerry Wise, the therapist and relationship systems coach with over 45 years of experience helping individuals untangle [00:02:00] from dysfunctional family patterns and develop what's called self differentiation. If you read my book, the Best of You, I talk about this in terms of selfhood or true self.

It's a. Powerful concept that both honors the systems of which we are a part while simultaneously honoring our need to differentiate. Jerry's work is grounded in family systems theory and it offers a powerful framework for healing, one that helps people find freedom. Whether you are sitting at the table with your family or far, far away from them, it's about becoming your own person.

Even within the complexity of family ties in part two. Next week's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Joshua Coleman. Joshua is a psychologist and author who has written extensively on family estrangement, particularly between parents and adult children. His work comes out of his own experience of having his adult [00:03:00] child go no contact with him for a period of time.

He brings so much compassion and insight to the often silent grief of estranged parents, while also honoring the autonomy of adult children. He helps us understand why estrangement happens and what healing might look like realistically from both sides. These two conversations speak to different aspects of the same deep reality that.

Sometimes the people who are supposed to love us the best are also the ones who hurt us. The most, and that healing is rarely linear, simplistic, or easy. And that sometimes healing takes a different path for each person involved. I hope you find something in both of these conversations, whether it's language for what you are working through with your own family, validation for what you've been [00:04:00] feeling, or a glimmer of hope for what healing might look like.

Going forward. Let's get started with part one. My conversation with Jerry Wise. Jerry Wise is a family systems and self differentiation expert with over 45 years of experience as a marriage and family therapist, addictions therapist, pastoral counselor, organizational consultant, and certified life relationship coach.

His unique self differentiation. Approach addresses the deeply ingrained effects of being raised in narcissistic, dysfunctional, or emotionally immature families, and empowers you to break free from these patterns so they no longer control you, your life or your relationships. Throughout his career, Jerry has helped thousands of clients transform their lives by applying self differentiation to healing relationships and leadership.

Please enjoy my conversation with Jerry Wise.

ALISON [00:05:00] I'd actually love Jerry as we get started here, you've got 45 years of experience that actually started out as a pastor and then became a marriage and family therapist, and now you've got this huge coaching practice really. Specifically focused on helping people with what we're gonna talk about today, but when were some breakthrough moments in your journey when you began to see this as really crucial work to health and wholeness?

JERRY WISE In a brief, after I had tried everything else, I had a breakthrough moment in trying to heal my own trauma, my own wounds, my own identity problems. Who am I? All those kinds of things. And of course, you know, therapy, that's a pastoral. Word. I mean, that's actually a Christian notion when, when you talk about therapy and people don't always realize that, you know, the first therapists were the pastors and monks and you know, [00:06:00] different people who provided healing and spiritual guidance folks.

So that's kind of where the tradition began. So in trying to heal my own wounds, going through so many things all the way from. Cognitive behavioral therapy to exorcism. I did the whole gamut to try to change. Well, and then I use these three words, the three Rs, relationships, reactivity, and recycling. What I call continued relationship problems, continued recycling.

I would just keep going in circles, do better, then go back one step forward, one step back, or two steps forwards, three steps back. You know, it just kept recycling and then, uh, reactivity was a real problem. I just thought, how do you actually change? Because it wasn't for a lack of wanting to. Now maybe somebody would say, oh, well you [00:07:00] really didn't wanna change, you know, if you really wanted to change, you would've changed.

Well, that's kind of a shaming approach to healing. I mean, and I tell people all the time, you may not be ready to give up that guilt yet. But that's not a shame statement. That's a come to know yourself statement, but then others can make a more shaming statement. Well, if you really wanted to change, you would.

Well, good luck. I hope that works for your life. You know, I, I hope that approach. So I realized that I needed to explore more, and I ran into a professor in seminary, Dr. Stoneberg, who was. All of his lectures absolutely fascinated me. I couldn't understand why he was so different from all the other professors.

He was a Lutheran pastor, psychologist. I couldn't understand why he had such clarity. I couldn't understand why he was. Not reactive and very [00:08:00] mature. It just was like, who is this guy? Come to find out he was a student of family systems and Murray Bowen Natural Family Systems theory, and I began to explore that and learn that, and then I began to realize my sense of self and healing is not just an individualistic thing.

I'm always connected at all times. To my family of origin, to others, to relationships. And so if we work from a systems perspective, I found much more healing with that than just let me just fix something broke inside me. 

ALISON Yes. So that makes sense. So this really comes out of your personal journey. 

JERRY WISE And I even, I remember telling him, he explained the situation of what self differentiation might feel Like I said, there's no way in the world I would ever feel that way.

There's no way I could ever, 'cause I had tried this, tried that, and I can't tell you the miracle of, [00:09:00] I just feel so different than. All those years of pain and lack of clarity and, and I just never even thought that was possible. I mean, I would've just said, yeah, I'll probably get a little better, but not really change. Become who I should be at am. 

ALISON Yeah. This is such a powerful and beautiful testimony really, for lack of a better word, right? This is a testimony to change, and I'm thinking of my listeners, Jerry, who will relate to what you're saying. I've tried everything, you know, from therapy to exorcism, you know, to prayer to.

Reading the Bible to workshops, to to cognitive, you know, trying to replace thoughts and I can't change. So let's talk about it. Let's unpack a little bit, and as much as you're comfortable, I'd love for you to share from your own experience of applying this either personally or with your clients. But what do you mean by self? [00:10:00] Differentiation. What is this and how is it different? 

JERRY WISE And people will say, well, are you just talking about self-esteem? But self-esteem is an individualistic concept. Self differentiation means you are different from someone else and different from the system. So that's why as you grow in self differentiation.

You disconnect from the toxicity, the beliefs, the subjectivity, the system dynamics, the systems wifi, which is the emotional wifi that we were connected to with our family of origin. And people go, oh, well I don't see my family anymore. I say, well, you may not see them anymore. But they are in, you still… 

ALISON Slow down. That was just such a statement right there. Self differentiation doesn't necessarily mean just getting physical distance. Not at all from my family and I, I really wanna underscore that 

JERRY WISE [00:11:00] in some ways that could be the least effective because in a system's way of thinking, you think about interesting paradoxes.

Is water good for you? You would probably say, yes, we should drink more water. We should have water. Well, let's then drink five gallons in an hour. Well, what's wrong with that? Water's good for you, but not at five gallons an hour. Then you can actually have water poisoning. And so the same is true in relationships.

Closeness is important. Very important. Too much closeness is toxic. Distance is very important. Too much distance. Is toxic and problematic. So when you think about systems, that's one of the first things to think about, to consider those notions. And then when you say, well, differentiation, what's unique about that?

And that differentiation [00:12:00] is me having internal boundaries in which, you know, I hear what you're saying, but I really don't care. You know, it's not my business. Your feelings are not my business. Your thoughts are not my business. Now, I'm not saying that in an unloving, uncaring way. Certainly I had a neighbor just recently lost her husband.

I do care about her feelings, but her feelings are still not my business. But I can go and comfort her, care about her and express my condolences and give her a big hug, but her feelings are still not mine. That's part of internal boundaries. Now, external boundaries, of course, like don't call me 12 times a day, please call me once a week.

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ALISON It's almost like you're saying with this self differentiation, it almost is a paradox. The more you find yourself in your own internal boundaries, almost paradoxically, you might be able to stay connected. To the system more because you are not as if you've unplugged from the wifi to use your metaphor. I love that you've unplugged. It's not downloading on you. You have found you, which allows you to let other people be them. 

JERRY WISE Again, I'm not talking about we should just accept abuse or physical violence or you know, of course not. And Bowen's notion, Marie Bowen's notion was self differentiation is being yourself. While staying connected because you mature by being yourself and staying connected.

Now there's a lot more to that. And again, I'm not saying people stay [00:16:00] in bad, bad toxic situations physically, however, with self differentiation, when someone comes to me and they go, oh, I've got all these problems with my family. Oh, they're driving me crazy, you know, and they are, the family's driving 'em crazy, and they're also participating in the craziness too.

Because it's always a feedback loop. You know, we're always a part of what we're a part of. Whatever you're dealing with, you are a part of it. Now, I'm not blaming, it's not a blaming statement, it's just a fact about systems and that when they come to me and say, oh, what should I do with my family? I try to do an assessment.

Does this require greater self differentiation? Or does this require greater distance? And I wanna make sure we have that healthy balance. Now, I don't decide all that for them. I educate them and help them understand. Now given this, and this is how Natural Family [00:17:00] Systems works, because actually Natural Family Systems is based on the whole biology of the whole universe.

How viruses work, it's how bacteria work, it's how the planets work. It's how we work because we're all a part of this one big creation here, and the rules are very similar at whatever level you're on. We're interconnected. Yeah, they were interconnected. And just like with Pluto and Saturn, if they got too close, that would be a problem.

If they got too much distance, there'd be a problem in our universe. It doesn't matter whether it's planetary or relationships. So I try to help them understand, is this a self differentiation thing this needed, or do you need to go? No contact is that necessary, but let's try to use our heads and our hearts. Let's not use our immaturity as the reason for cutting off. 

ALISON So I think what I hear you saying is it may be that I can internally, just by way of background, my [00:18:00] background is in IFS. So the idea of internal boundaries is very familiar to me. Oh yes. Internal boundaries. Right, right. So what is it that I can do internally to change myself?

Such that I'm not saying that what's going on around me isn't toxic. What I am saying is, are there things I can do to shift inside to differentiate from the system while still engaging with it to some degree? And you're also holding space for the fact that sometimes that's not possible. Sometimes no matter how much work I can do, the best thing I can do for my own health is to depart. And that's what you're trying to help people discern. And sometimes it might be both 

JERRY WISE and it could be both. Or we need to find out, you know, we may need to do an experiment. And let's see, we can test the system with self differentiation. And if the system doesn't respond well, I. If you go through the say, three stages of resistance, because you'll always get resistance.

But if you can go through the three stages of resistance, the system [00:19:00] will sometimes, if not many times, adjust to accept the new you. They won't like it, but there's some give in the system. 

ALISON I'm gonna ask you a two part question. The first question I wanna ask is, who needs to do this work? Do we all need to do this work?

And part two is. What is a quote unquote dysfunctional family? You talk about getting your family out of you. Is this work for everybody or is this work for folks who have or are experiencing what you would describe as a dysfunctional system? 

JERRY WISE Actually, I think of self differentiation as the normal or normative growing up process. That was interfered with due to dysfunction and toxic families, you know, or parenting or whatever. Now, by the way, I don't just blame the parents. I figure what's happening to you when you're growing up is about five generations old. So it's not [00:20:00] just your parents who have made a bad choice. Parents can make bad choices.

I've made bad choices as a parent, so I understand parents are very imperfect, but. Many are very, very, very imperfect and can cause lots of problems, and that this differentiation process is I think for everyone. And in fact you can use it for everything. And I consult family businesses using family systems theory because it's all about relationships.

You know, it's, everything's about relationships. Many times we will focus on a symptomatic problem, but the underneath problem usually has to do with self differentiation. 

ALISON Can you gimme an example either from your own life or from someone you've worked with of what self differentiation looks like? 

JERRY WISE Sure. Self [00:21:00] differentiation. It is growing, healing, and moving towards. The self-awareness, self-regulation and self definition, and all of our healing. In all of our recovery. We need all of those. Now, I wouldn't say to the person who just came to me and just realized they had a dysfunctional family and were abused growing up, that the first thing I'm gonna do is, why aren't you self differentiated?

No, no. You need to talk through some of the trauma and the problems, but as you're going on, you'll get stuck. And I think where I learned some of this also was. I worked in addictions therapy for a number of years and worked in rehabilitation for alcoholics and addicts, and I was the family counselor at the inpatient center and would work with all the families and with the alcoholics as well.

And I was the only marriage and family therapist there who had that kind of training. And I realized that [00:22:00] alcoholics and addicts, and I think he had even talked about in the big book as well, they reach a point. They almost can't go further. They have gone as far as they can go and then just continue to go to meetings, which is good.

I'm four 12 step meetings. I'm sure anything that will help, if it is helping you, who am I to say no, no, that's not good. But it's beyond, can we go beyond recovery to self? I don't wanna just be a recovery self. I want to be, Jerry should have been Jerry A. Long time ago. 

ALISON What you're describing almost reminds me a little bit of Maslow's hierarchy, right? But as applied to trauma, where we gotta get the baseline needs met, we gotta get to safety, we gotta get food, we gotta get shelter, we gotta get sober, we gotta get these baseline some support, right, of some kind, support. Then we continue to build into belonging and then. What you're describing, I think about in terms of [00:23:00] selfhood, true self, self-actualization.

Like this is who I really am and it's not, I love how you're saying it, Jerry. It's not an individualistic thing. Differentiation implies this is who I am within a context. 

JERRY WISE And Bowen had this imaginary self differentiation scale, zero to 10. And he said, you know, most people are probably, uh, two or three or I don't know.

You can make some change from a three to a four. Also, it's if you ever wonder in terms of attraction, A seven is not going to find a two attractive in terms of self differentiation. They won't get together. They'll be a whole room and the two twos will get together. The two sevens will get together, but the sevens not gonna get together with the two because you, you're on different planets.

And so he said, you can move that dial of self differentiation. And for me, I felt, oh, maybe I was a. Three, [00:24:00] four. I'll just throw out a number since it's a kind of an imaginary scale, but it is tied to certain things you can read about how he was tying it to certain behaviors and thoughts and ways of thinking, but in moving from a three to a four made so much difference in my life. I can't even express it. 

ALISON So someone who isn't quite, and again, there's no shame, we're just naming here. I could even think of my own life. Let's say I was early on, kind of like you trying to find myself through studying books at seminar and in counseling programs. I was very undifferentiated. I had some head knowledge of things maybe in my family or around me that, well, at one, I wouldn't have had any knowledge of it.

Then you get to like a three or four and you kind of have. Some understanding of it, but you're still a part of it. You're still enmeshed in it. And then when you make that big step to Unen, meshing to differentiating, [00:25:00] so it sounds like that's kind of what you're saying. There's a progression from, I don't like this about my family, but I'm still part of it.

JERRY WISE They've done this to me, they've da, da, da. Okay. You can have that phase. But don't stay in the blaming phase because you'll miss, you 

ALISON say more 

JERRY WISE blaming in a systems understanding is negating self. It's not that you caused it, but you're other focused, stay self-focused. You're still giving them all the power.

You're giving them all the power, and you're not self differentiating. Well, I just want you to know my parents ruined my whole life and they have for the last 40 years, and they probably will for the next 40. Oh, well that's serious. You know, YI hope you find your way out of that. You really do, right? 

ALISON As opposed to, I see it now. What am I going to do with my life? 

JERRY WISE I understand it. I accept [00:26:00] it. They are them. I am me. I am not them. They are not me. There's no denial about what happened. How do I become me, which is self differentiation, is more of a self-focused work, and most people that come to me are, when I have a talk show and people ask questions, they will almost always use other focused questions and I go, can we turn that into a self-focused questions?

Because I don't know why they did that. I cared that they did something to you, but I don't care why they did it, because how is it gonna help you for us to analyze them? 

ALISON If I came to you, Jerry, and said, my mom is always doing this to me, my dad is always doing this to me, how would you reframe that? Because that's kind of what comes 

JERRY WISE Absolutely. And I would say, you're absolutely right. That's what they do. Now what do you need to do? [00:27:00] And I want you to stop blaming and stop focusing on them because you're still enmeshed when you're saying they always do and they're always do. That's just a measurement talk.

That's the part of the nonself differentiation. We want to get to a self differentiated. Now, by the way, I'm not saying that happens overnight just because I say that everything goes fine, and so I know it's a process. We're condensing this, so I don't want everybody to think, well, I can't do that in a day.

You know? Well, no, I didn't do it in a day, believe me. But I want to get to that point where I am going. Why am I still focusing on them? Because I'm missing me every time I focus on them. 

ALISON And that point of breakthrough when you can leave a family gathering and all the same stuff happened and you walk away and go, huh, I'm gonna go about my business is so freeing.

JERRY WISE Yeah. That's how my family is. That's how my [00:28:00] family is. They've been that way for years. They're not gonna change. I don't need to change them and I don't need to live in their roles that they have for me, and I don't need to live in their perceptions they have for me because all that, most of it is family wifi, which is nonsense, is what got started in the beginning.

If a parent calls their child stupid, that's like calling your child a Coca-Cola. And I use that analogy. Is it sensible to call a child a Coca-Cola? No, because it's nonsense. Stupid is nonsense too. Now, by the way, I know that children should not be called that, and I understand they can't fight back in the same way an adult Child can. 

ALISON So, and that's the trauma. 

JERRY WISE that's the trauma piece that has to be addressed. But now that you're 35 years old and mom says, oh, you've always been so stupid. [00:29:00] Why does that bother you? Do you believe that nonsense? Do you see how mom is not well? Why are you hurt by somebody who's not? Well. I learned that when I was in a psychiatric practice as a marriage and family therapist and worked in the psychiatric practice, went to lock units and schizophrenia, you know, and the schizophrenics would say, you know, well, you're not a member of the Royal German royal family like I am.

Would I get offended by that? No, because it's delusional. Why can't we apply that to delusional parents who are have their own selves are broken. They don't know how to communicate well, they've been traumatized. Why are we taking that so seriously? Because we don't know any other way. I mean, that's what we learned.

AD BREAK 2

ALISON So let's talk about, again, this is very condensed, but I wanna give the [00:30:00] listener a taste of what are some of, if someone is like, I'm ready for this. I've done the trauma work, I know what went wrong. I wanna take this next step. I wanna be self differentiated. I wanna learn. Sometimes I think about it like a bruise.

I wanna be able to push on that bruise and realize it doesn't hurt anymore. You know? What are the first steps someone could take in this process of self differentiation just today? Even if they're listening? 

JERRY WISE Well, there's lots of learning you can do by reading, of course, Harriet Lerner, Jenny Brown, Brene Brown.

They all come from this perspective, which is why they're so powerful in their message. And Harriet Lerner was one of the first ones. The dance of anger, the dance of intimacy, the dance of connection, the dance. And she says it's a dance because it's not just individualistic stuff, it's the dance and can you change the dance and I wanna help you change the [00:31:00] dance.

That will change you. Rather than, I just wanna help you change you, but the dance continues. I, I know I wanna help you with the dance and that will change you. Getting back to what can they do, certainly readings can be very helpful. Jenny Brown, growing yourself up is kind of a beginning kind of book.

She's an Australian therapist. And now if you actually wanna practice it, there are two things I might suggest just to begin. Because if you want to disconnect from the wifi, if you want to not take things personally, then you have to begin to work on calmness, because the more reactive you are, the more you're in the dance and it infiltrates you.

The more calm you are, the less impact it has on you. I try to help people remain [00:32:00] calm when they go to a family dinner because I'm going, well, why are you upset about that? Who cared? No, no, they can't hit you. They can't. No, no, no leave. But if they're doing their normal, well, I wish Allison would change how she wears her hair.

She just doesn't look that attractive with her hair like that Before, maybe Allison would've gone, oh, there you go again, talking about my hair. Why is that always a problem? Now I am reactive and the enmeshment remains Instead of me working to stay calm, even if it means staying quiet and I'm not accepting abuse, I'm staying quiet to not be reactive.

Then I can even learn to go, okay, what's for lunch? See, I'm non-reactive and I'm letting them think that way while I'm not being affected by it. Staying calm is number one. Secondly, you can become a researcher. Go to your family and [00:33:00] be a researcher. Don't be a participant. Watch what's going on. It's all there.

If you'll start to watch and observe, don't absorb. Go and practice that, and then they come back and going. I had a whole different experience in my family 'cause I was watching and I was working on just staying calm. I have a video called Calmness is Everything, and it's so critical because anxiety is what causes illness, stress, enmeshment, relationship problems. When that triggering goes up, you're kind of done. 

ALISON You're taking back your power when you can stay calm. It's a really subtle shift.

JERRY WISE but some would say, but you No, no, you're, you're disempowering me because I need to tell my mom how wrong she is and, and she's done this for years and she needs [00:34:00] to know I'm upset.

No, no. Doing all of that is just rehearsing. You're disempowering. You're staying in the old dance and mom's not gonna change because you said all this to her. I guarantee you.

ALISON you've gotta step out of the dance, which is your calmness. 

JERRY WISE You've got to step out of the dance. 

ALISON Yeah. The observer thing, if I think about that through the lens of parts, I think sometimes you can almost say, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna deploy.

I note taking part of me. At this family dinner, right? And I'm gonna just mentally, and it gives you something to do and then that can help you stay calm. Or I'm gonna deploy a journalist part of me, or a researcher part of me. 

JERRY WISE and these kinds of tools I've tried to put together for the last 45 years and give people tools to use so that they can actually experience it quickly.

I didn't say change and be absolutely a different person to Mark. I meant they can begin to experience that. I [00:35:00] think this is even powerful. Somebody comes to me and says, oh my, my dad's always critical of me. He doesn't like it that I decided I wanted to be a financial analyst rather than a doctor. And he's a doctor.

He thought I should be a doctor, and he just thinks, that's terrible what I've chosen. And I go, so what? I just changed his mental perception. Of what's going on. Now, I'm not saying it doesn't matter what's going on, but I'm saying you are doing this dance with dad right now and the so what is letting go of the tug of war rope? You go. So what? That can be as miserable as he wants about it. 

ALISON Let him do his own salsa over there. 

JERRY WISE Exactly. You don't have to join him. Exactly. Yeah. You don't have to join him and you have to wait till he goes. I'm so happy and love you and I'm proud of you as a financial analyst. Why are you [00:36:00] waiting on that? What's the point? 

ALISON It's good stuff. Jerry, as we close, I was gonna ask you, and you know, there is sort of this movement toward. Some researchers are saying sort of a spike in no contact family estrangement, and almost what I'm hearing from you is that becomes the worst case scenario sometimes. But it almost feels like what you're saying is there's a lot of other ways to go before you have to go to that extreme.

JERRY WISE Exactly. Because we don't want going no contact the best way to go. No contact is non actively. So it should be a mature decision that's made out of the sober self differentiation, not, oh, I just don't like this anymore. So, no, that's just enhancing your immaturity. That's not making a mature decision. And I advise people that way and certainly there are people, I think it is wise if they make that choice, but I even try to help [00:37:00] them make that choice from a an adult level.

It's not. Because my mom just hurts my feelings so much. We need to deal with that. But that's the whole nature of the problem, which is the reactivity. And even people can be reactive with psychological things, even healthy psychological things. They can be reactive with that. Even if it's CBT, even if it's emotionally based therapy, whatever, you can be reactive with almost how many people go home and say, I just learned that you are a narcissist.

You know, it may be helpful to know about narcissism, but now you've just become reactive and went home and were immature with your knowledge. 

ALISON All the knowledge in the world does not transformation make. And what we really care about is transformation right? 

JERRY WISE Exactly. Yeah. Of ourselves. Of ourselves. 

ALISON How would my [00:38:00] listeners who are interested in what you're doing, how do people find your work and what kinds of offerings do you have for folks who are interested in taking the next step in self differentiation?

JERRY WISE I appreciate you asking. I have a website, Jerry Wise relationship. Systems relationship is single. Systems is plural. It's too long of a name, but I've stuck with it now. So there is one-on-one coaching that's available, and I have a couple staff members who I've trained also, and for anybody on who's watching us today, they can go and do the free training that I offer.

All you have to do is go to the website, sign up for it. 84 minute trainings doesn't cost you anything. Then I have the Road to Self Program, which is a more in-depth program, several modules, do it at your own pace, and people have really been responding well to [00:39:00] that. And again, this is my life's work put into this program is it's 45 years of all the nuttiness I've been through.

And learning, and so people can take advantage of that as well. And then soon there will be a book that's, I'm looking forward to that. Also, we're going to also start offering small workshops on different topics that could be helpful. For example, like a 45 minute little workshop on remaining or staying calm, taking all the different aspects of self differentiation and doing a little.

Help with each of those. And again, what's nice about self differentiation, you don't have to do it a lot to notice a big change. And that was from my own experience. I wanted people to know about this and something that helped me. 

ALISON Thank you so much for just sharing your wisdom with us and with so many people. And I saw [00:40:00] how just the course seems to have helped so many people rave reviews. 

JERRY WISE I feel very blessed and grateful that people have found the help that I've found for myself, and maybe they can find it for them. 

ALISON Amen. I love it. Thanks, Jerry. Thanks for your time today. 

JERRY WISE Thank you so much, Allison. It's been a pleasure being here. You're wonderful person. 

‍

What do you do with the ache of not feeling wanted? The part of you that wonders if you’ll ever truly belong?

In this powerful conversation with IFS therapist and author Tammy Sollenberger, we explore how the Internal Family Systems (IFS) model helps you turn toward those tender places inside—rather than pushing them away.

This conversation originally struck a deep chord with listeners—and it feels especially relevant right now. Whether you’re hearing it for the first time or tuning in again, it holds fresh insight for your journey.

Tammy shares:

• Her personal story of feeling unwanted—even though her parents loved her.
• Why “parts work” is so transformative in healing emotional wounds
• How self-compassion opens the door to real connection
• A simple practice to begin befriending the hurting parts within

If you’ve ever struggled with feeling left out, overlooked, or not enough—this episode will meet you with kindness, insight, and hope.

📘 Learn more about Tammy’s book: ⁠The One Inside⁠

💬 Got a question or reflection? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

If you liked this episode, you'll love:

• ⁠Episode 108⁠ Inside Out—Internal Family Systems, Therapy, and High-Performing Protectors with Jenna Riemersma
• ⁠Episodes 39⁠ through ⁠43⁠ —Boundaries For Your Soul series on IFS in 5 parts

Thanks to our sponsors:

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Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

‍

Episode Transcript:

Alison Cook: Hi friends. It's Dr. Alison. Welcome back. I'm so glad you're here, and if you're new here, I'm so glad you found your way. This is a space where we talk about the intersection of our spiritual lives, psychology and the healing journey from the inside out.

Whether you've been listening for a while or you're just getting started, I'm so glad you're here.

We've been in the middle of some incredible conversations about how we reconnect with the parts of ourselves that carry pain, fear, or doubt,

And today I wanted to bring back one of my favorite episodes and one of the episodes you have shared and re-shared a conversation that beautifully illustrates what the internal family systems model or IFS for short looks like in real life.

My guest, Tammy Sollenberger, is a licensed clinical mental health counselor and IFS certified supervisor and the host of the one inside, one of the very first podcasts to explore the world of IFS. She's also the author of The One Inside: 30 Days to Your Authentic Self.

A simple, practical guide for getting to know your inner world.

And what I love about this conversation with Tammy is that it's not a teaching, it's a story Tammy shares openly about her own childhood and the parts of her that formed in response to early loss and how those parts shaped her experience well into adulthood.

Tammy's story is personal, it's honest and it's filled with insight for anyone learning how to turn inward with compassion.

We also talk about the inside out movies, which have done such a brilliant job bringing parts language into the mainstream.

If you have not seen the first Inside Out movie or the second Inside Out movie Inside Out two that came out last summer, I highly recommend them as a great starting point for beginning to understand this way of viewing our inner lives. These movies are not just for kids. They are for all of us. They help us understand and name the different parts of us that we all carry.

This episode so beautifully illustrates a larger thread that we're constantly weaving throughout the show. And if you wanna go even deeper into Parts Work or IFS, please check out episode 108 with Jenna Rema for a powerful conversation on parts, pain and compassion. And also check out the boundaries for your Soul Series that whole series episodes 39 through 43 is a great companion to what you'll hear today, and you might wanna especially check out episode 43 where my co-author of Boundaries for Your Soul, Kimberly Miller and I talk about taming your inner critic.

We'll link to all of those episodes in the show notes. You can also find them on my website, DrAlisoncook.com/podcast.

Tammy's story is personal, it's honest, and it's full of wisdom. For anyone who's felt unwanted, cast aside, or not enough, I can't wait for you to hear it.

Please enjoy my conversation with my dear friend and fellow therapist, Tammy Sollenberger. 

‍

[00:03:17] INTERVIEW

‍

[00:03:17] Alison Cook: Tammy, I just love talking to you always. We always have such great conversations. I'm such a big fan of your podcast, The One Inside. It's such a great resource for anyone who wants to go deeper. And then your book, The One Inside, which I love, it's 30 meditations.

[00:03:34] Tammy: It is 30 days to your authentic self. And so basically what it does is it's a day by day teaches you the IFS model, but it teaches you by going inside and helping you get to know your own system. 

Like what does it mean for me to have parts and how do I pay attention to my parts? And how do I know who is here and how do I know how to track them, and how do I start listening to them? And it just is a very bite-sized way for you to begin to [00:04:00] understand and learn and befriend your own personality.

[00:04:03] Alison Cook: Well, I love it. And you're a seasoned IFS therapist. You do this work all the time. You actually consult with IFS therapists who are getting their certification. You lead some groups in IFS. I mean, you are seasoned in the model. So the fact that you can take something really complicated and distill it into basic principles is actually really hard to do.

And I. Commend you for it, which is why we love this movie Inside Out and the New one Inside Out too, right? Because that's exactly what it's doing. It's taking it out of therapy and into normal, mainstream life. We all have these parts from little kids to ourselves, to our friends, and it's just such a helpful way to think about the people that we love and ourselves at basic level, at the foundational level of the soul, right?

Is we have different parts of us.

[00:04:48] Tammy: I love it. Right? So an inside out has really done just this marvelous job of making this idea mainstream. Anybody any age can really begin to have this language [00:05:00] of a part of me feel sad. A part of me feels mad, a part of me is jealous. A part of me is bored and I'm allowed to speak for them, and I'm allowed to say them, and they make sense.

Like it makes sense that I would have a variety of parts and a variety of different, different emotions running my system. And so, yeah, I think the movie does such a great job of explaining these kind of higher level concepts, but it does such a good job of making it not that complicated.

[00:05:24] Alison Cook: So toward that end, Tammy, I actually am dying to ask you some of these questions 'cause I don't know these aspects of your story. I know a lot about your current life. I know a lot about, you know, as we've gotten to know each other for some reason, I don't know as much about your personal history we're kind of in this series looking at.

These personal stories about when these parts form, like we see RI, right? She's moved across the country, she's got to deal with new friends, new school, all these things, and we see how that. External experience and the way she relates to her family, her parents, her literal parents, begin to shape the development [00:06:00] of the different parts of her.

I would love to learn a little bit more from you if you would be so gracious as to allow us to go back in time for a moment. As you think about your pre-teen. Self. The younger you, the little young. Tammy, what are some of the characters or the parts of yourself that you now understand were parts at the time?

I'm sure you had no sense of that vocabulary, but how do you see that younger you and how she was existing in the world at maybe sixth grade, seventh grade, middle school? I see your face just immediately grow, compassionate and empathetic. That's beautiful.

[00:06:39] Tammy: Yeah, I mean, so Riley is 13 and so, yeah. I mean, this is a huge time of our lives, right? This huge transition, uh, developmentally, physically. So, yeah, I mean, I think because you're, you, and because we have this relationship, it does feel really safe. And I always say on my podcast too, that like I. I'm not thinking about the people listening, I'm just thinking about you.

So I'm just thinking about [00:07:00] my friend Alison, and me and you having this conversation. So it feels really safe for me to sort of share this. And so growing up, my mom and dad were 16 when they had me, my mom was Catholic, they got married and then they got divorced sort of a year or two later.

So my mom was a single mom. My dad was kind of in and out, but I would see him every other weekend and I still have a relationship with him and, I think I was maybe six or seven when my dad married my 

 stepmom and they had three boys. It was just my mom and I till I was 10. And then my mom married my stepdad. He had a daughter that was my age and then they had a daughter. So So basically I have a dad and a stepmom and three brothers. And then I have my mom and my stepdad.

And then I have a sister who's 10 years younger than me.

[00:07:40] Alison Cook: Slow down for a second because talk about a complicated family system. because what I heard in that Tammy, is you have a few half brothers and a half-sister who's 10 years younger, but, and then also a stepsister who's roughly your same age.

That's a lot of change for a [00:08:00] 10-year-old.

[00:08:00] Tammy: it's a lot of change and what I remember is that I was a really happy kid because I, in general, like I'm a really happy sort of sunshiny person, like as an adult and I was, I was a really happy kid that I remember. I.

[00:08:13] Alison Cook: You have a strong

[00:08:15] Tammy: Yes,

[00:08:15] Alison Cook: I see that

[00:08:16] Tammy: yes. I have lots of joy.

[00:08:18] Alison Cook: the movie.

[00:08:18] Tammy: Anger has been completely exiled, but joy is here in abundance and we like joy and sadness is pretty good too.

 But to bring the IFS piece in and a little bit, so my first big training with IFS was I did a week with Dick Swartz at Cape Cod Institute about 11 years ago. So I did this week long workshop with Dick, and there was times where there was. Pieces of teaching, and then there's times where you could work with somebody kind of one-on-one.

And the first big piece of work that I did was this 10-year-old part of me who lost her mom, and I was sobbing, like hysterically crying, and I did not know that was there. but looking back and thinking about it, I'm like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

'cause for me it was me and my mom. And I remember we lived in this little tiny, we call it the beach cottage. We lived in this little tiny beach cottage and we bought, if I remember this correctly, like we, we each had different types of toothpaste that we bought. And, and to me, I had a happy life. Like my poor mom was a single mom and.

You know, 26 years old with a 10-year-old, you know, so working full time, you know. But I'm like, happy as can be. And then all of a sudden into my system, we move, we move across the street. So I go to a different school. All of a sudden there's a stepdad who's the nicest guy. He's a nice guy, but there's this man.

His daughter, who was very, very tough and ended up getting kind of asked to leave our house when we were 16, so there was a lot of stuff there. And then my mom got pregnant. Basically immediately, so you know, by the time I'm 11, I have a baby sister, a stepsister, a stepdad, a new house. And so there was all this loss, and I think that my system basically exiled all this pain.

And so we're just gonna be cheery. We're gonna be a nice girl, we're gonna be a good girl. We're not gonna cause any problems. and I'm not gonna have any feelings. You know, there's not gonna be any pain or sadness and there's nothing about me.

Right. There's no me here. Right. My feelings about losing my mom and what this was like for me, that that wasn't even. Didn't even dawn on me that I could even speak for like what this was like for me until probably 14, probably when puberty hit. I think I just was super emotional and the word comes up for me as sort of like identity, like like, you sort of see Riley, like she's, she's got hockey.

Like I didn't have a thing. Like I was never really good at anything. You know, I was just okay at school. I didn't really care about school. I cared about my friends, just like Riley. You 

 I tried to find different friend groups. I think this is where sort of the church comes in later, you know, when I've done my IFS work, I have this. This exile around not being wanted. Like of course you weren't wanted, you had teenage parents, you weren't wanted, and my parents were really good about saying, you're wanted and you're loved.

And they would say that they were very good, very good about that. But this part of me says, well, the truth is you weren't wanted, like, let's be honest, Tammy, And so I have this. This part that is kind of in, and it'll say like, it's just in my blood, like not being wanted is in my blood.

And so I have then these other parts that do anything that they can do to be wanted. And we see this in the movie with Riley. Where she leaves her really good friends to go with the popular girls, and she makes some really bad decisions. And I think I would've done anything to be wanted, like, just want me, just include me.

Just let me be a part of it. Give me identity. And so I sort of flounder, right? I flounder with friends. I flounder with. Boys, once, you know, high school comes, I'm just wanting to be wanted by boys. And as a three, you know, three is we wanna be successful. And like I wasn't successful at school, I wasn't successful at sports, but it'd be like, okay, but if I wanna be with this boy, that would be the way I could be successful.

Or, you know, being fun or whatever. Like that's, that's how I could be successful. So then my system, when we think about. Parts, there's a lot of protection around this being wanted, and then what happens when I feel unwanted, and so I have all these parts that kind of swirl around the idea of being wanted and unwanted.

[00:12:19] Alison Cook: Gosh, there's a lot in that and I can tell there's also a lot of years of getting to know those. Different parts, and so this is the power of IFS. It makes sense that a part of you picked up burdens all along the way. I would imagine as you started doing the work with Dick 11 years ago, and there were memories that surprised you of things that happened that reinforced that burden.

That wasn't necessarily true, but moments where maybe even your parents were trying not to reinforce that burden, but maybe something happened that did reinforce that burden. Were there some key memories or moments as you've done some of this work as an adult that you would go back to in your mind?

[00:13:08] Tammy: Yeah. I mean that's part of why this work is so powerful is you can go back, but when I go back, it's not traumatic to go back because then I am there with me, the adult leader, the authentic self like I can be. Then with my. You know, sixth grade part that felt like she had no friends and was sitting in the middle school cafeteria and felt this incredible aloneness.

Like, I can go back and be with her in that moment in the way that she needed someone. Whether she needed my mom or she needed a friend. I can go back and be what she needed and really. Get her out of that place that she's in, that she's still in, where she's still, 'cause that's what happens in our bodies is I still have these parts that feel that unwanted ness or the no sense of belonging or these two families.

But I don't exist really in either one of them. I'm not really wanted in either one [00:14:00] of these families, which again, other parts of me say that's not true at all. But there's this burden of I don't fit, I don't fit, and I'm not wanted.

[00:14:08] Alison Cook: We have these rational, logical parts of us, no, no. My parents loved me, but this is what the listener who hasn't experienced this, I want you to understand these are. Stored in our memories. I remember when I was writing Boundaries for Your Soul and we were supposed to come up with stories, and I thought, oh, my stories are just dumb.

the story that I tell in boundaries for your soul of not making the basketball team in, I think it was seventh grade, right? Which is such a formative year. I worked and worked my tail off a good little Enneagram three part of me. I worked at it, I worked hard to make that team. And when the day came and I walked into the locker room and the list of names was up and my name wasn't on that list, the shame that overwhelmed me.

I had bought brand new sneakers that were the sneakers that the real basketball player girls were wearing. And this was in a time when that was a big expenditure. People just didn't throw away money on brand names, sneakers. It was a big deal. Like I got 'em, I think, for a Christmas present, you know? And then I.

Didn't make the team. And I was just mortified and swallowed up by shame because I've had to then wear those sneakers and I didn't make the team right, and my parents actually loved me through that as best they could. It wasn't even like any horrible big T trauma thing that we might think of had happened, but the way that my parts.

Lined up and the way that that story landed in that moment with other things that had happened to me as a child was just this feeling of invisibility. My name is never on the list. I'm always invisible, and I still to this day have to update that part of me. Because I can find all those moments when that happened and I don't notice the moments where, you know, my friends will say, Alison, are you kidding me?

Like you were always on the honor roll. You're always on all these lists. I'm like, didn't matter. I only remember the ones I didn't make and the shame that I felt, and I bring that in. I hear you saying so well, Tammy, and so clearly, right? Those burdens get picked up and sometimes the memories that we have where there's pain are surprising to the logical, rational parts of us.

They're like, but you sometimes don't make the team. It doesn't matter. I had to go back to the place of that memory and be with the young girl who in that moment just buried that feeling of shame deep inside.

[00:16:24] Tammy: Well, in the movie Ri, you know, she has these balls of memory. And what you see in the second movie is she really joy exiles any. Balls that are shame. She sort of puts up in this little sucker thing and just sort of sucks it away and sort of puts it in the basement. And that's what we do with memories or things that don't align.

And so Joy does that with sort of sad things, right? Or shaming things, right? Nope. We're only gonna keep the Happy balls, the happy memories. The happy moments. The little balls that reinforce that we are loved and we are good, and we are happy and we're a good friend, and we're smart and all these beautiful things that we wanna believe.

We're just gonna keep those balls. But what happens is our system, because it's so protective in nature, we sort of hold onto the balls that reinforce that burden. So if I have a burden of being unwanted. my parts like almost are hypervigilant for looking for anything or any one, right? It's sort of that idea of one person says, I don't like you.

It doesn't matter that there's a million people out there that think I'm the best thing in the world. My system's gonna focus on that one person and like highlight that little ball. That memory then is gonna become sort of stored as evidence of my burden.

[00:17:44] Alison Cook: That is so well stated, and I can then imagine as you're going through high school and the social jungle of high school and young adulthood, the exhaustion. Of trying to make sure every guy, every girl, everyone likes you what do you do with the ones who don't want you?

That would just be devastating as opposed to learning, oh, wait a minute. There's another way to go through life in terms of relating to other people. 

[00:18:16] AD BREAK 1

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[00:18:16] Alison Cook: Tammy, as you got older and you brought some of these burdens with you into adulthood, when did you begin to realize, oh, this might not be working?

This strategy for gaining love and gaining a feeling of being wanted might not be working. I.

[00:18:32] Tammy: That's a good question. We talk about the CS of self energy. So authentic self is that leader, that essence of who we are. The divine us inside is this authentic self, and we use these C qualities and a C that is not listed in the c qualities is choice. And we often think about, if I had choice, if I had more perspective, what choices would I make that would be different, right?

If I'm only making choices that are protective in nature. Because my parts are like, I have to make choices to be wanted or not wanted. So I'm gonna pick jobs or hobbies or activities or friends or people that really try to reinforce and sort of create a space of being wanted. And if I get any, uh, feeling that this person isn't really gonna want me, they're not in the club.

So to answer your question, you know, when I was 21, I got really involved in my boyfriend at the time who became my husband. We got married when I was 22 and we got really involved in his church and that really shifted my whole life for. Probably 20 years that I got really involved in church. And that was a community.

I had a good church experience. I have not had a traumatic church experience at all, even though I don't really go to an evangelical church now. But I had a good experience for the most part. But you know, I think that's where sort of the Enneagram three. Busy, the busyness and the tasks and the being good at something.

That's when that started coming into play. When I was in my twenties, like all of a sudden I wasn't chasing boys anymore. I was like, oh, I'm actually not dumb. I'm actually, I'm kind of smart. And so if I take a class. I want an A plus. If I teach this Bible study, it needs to be really good. I need to spend hours on it.

I want everyone to come to my Bible study. Like it really shifted to this sort of idea of being wanted and the idea of success shifted to be really good at this other thing.

[00:20:28] Alison Cook: So, Tammy, is it fair to say on some level your strategy. Just shifted to more either church sanctioned or socially acceptable sanctioned ways, but really you hadn't healed those deeper inner parts of you. You just shifted from getting the affection of boys and popularity to, I'm gonna be the best Bible study leader.

I'm gonna be the best therapist, I'm gonna be the best wife, friend, church member.

[00:20:57] Tammy: would say yes, except for I don't know that I ever wanted. To be the best wife, which I'm so sorry to my ex-husband. But to be completely honest, that that wasn't there. You know it, and, and I can feel that now because now I have a partner and I feel differently. I feel this idea of like, I wanna be a good partner to him.

And I look back and I think, wow, I never felt that way with my husband. Like there was, it was sort of like, yep, got him. Check off the list, turn around. Let's, what else are we doing? 

[00:21:24] Alison Cook: interesting.

[00:21:26] Tammy: Yeah. Yeah, and that's been something that has been. It. It's just interesting to sort of notice, so I'm not judging it, but I'm just really noticing that like, wow, that was not on my list.

 an Enneagram one is gonna wanna be perfect and be the best at something, and a three's drivenness isn't about that. It really isn't about being the best, it's more about the accomplishment of it. Right? Like I think for me it was that idea, and maybe for you too, it's like the idea of being wanted, right?

So my success is being wanted. It's not even really being. The best at it. When I think about my book or the podcast where I have a lot of like, it's good enough, let's just accomplish it and get stuff done. And so it has a different kind of flavor.

[00:22:07] Alison Cook: It makes sense. And I really appreciate your honesty and I think this is something IFS affords is we can really look at ourselves honestly because we remove the shame and we really just get curious. And I really hear you saying and it makes sense to me that there's an Enneagram three part of you that was like, I can check off the list marriage I've accomplished.

Marriage, which is a very different way of looking at it than what does it mean to consistently show up for this other human being that I've chosen to bring into my life or God has put into my life. And there's such an honesty. I have no doubt there's a whole nother side to that story. We won't go into that, but I do appreciate the.

Honesty of your own ability to go? No. In reality, when I look back, yes, there was a lot of me wanting accomplishments and I think that is, you're right, that's a good pushback on that. It's not being the best, and it makes sense to me that at that young age it's like, okay, I did that,  done next, and that, that probably did impact from your side of things, how you could show up as a friend and a partner and an intimate person.

In a long term relationship. That's really honest. I just wanna pause there. I think that's unusual and worthy of just pausing on, oh gosh, yeah, this is what was going on with me without shame, with real honesty. There's a freedom in that.

[00:23:26] Tammy: Well, I like what you're saying because I think IFS really does that. Like if we look at Riley in this movie, you know, we can really look at these parts of her. But just sort of, yeah, of course there's an anxious part of her. A sad part, like these parts are here. We don't have to judge them or apologize for them, or we can be curious about them.

You know, we can see how much they love Riley and how hard they work for her, and that's. The same thing with our parts, right? the parts of me that were like, let's pick a boy and let's be boy crazy and let's do what we need to do to be wanted. And the parts of me that feel really unwanted,  I really understand them.

Like it makes sense to me that they're there. It makes sense to me why they're there. Not in a logic way, but in a heart way. Like my heart, my open heart, myself. Can really understand in a loving way how these parts are trying to help me. And if we kind of make it a little simplistic, my system really just gets built around this idea of being unwanted in success, right?

Just these two things that are highlighted for me, being an Enneagram three and coming from the family that I did. Then think about the parts of me that work really hard to make sure those things happen, and then think about the parts of me that come in when that doesn't happen. Right? Well, my name isn't on the basketball list, and then all these parts have to come in to help me with these feelings of failure.

With these feelings of being unwanted. I mean, that happens with my son. If my son, my 13-year-old. He's an only child. I had a hard time having him. And so when there's any little hint that he doesn't want me, my system goes haywire. Like and there's rage and there's shut down. 'cause my system is built, 

 around this idea of being wanted and unwanted. And so when there's feelings around that, everyone goes crazy. Right. So then I have to be there to say, Hey guys, I'm here. I'm with you. Turn and look at me. I am with you. Right? And so we have self that kind of steps into the room, which we don't really see that in inside out too.

 I come into the room and I say, I am here. I want you. I love you. Let's see. What do you need from me? Let's have a connection with me. And you sort of see what happens to these sweet parts when I enter the room.

[00:25:40] Alison Cook: Can we move into that a little bit, Tammy? Because I love what you're saying. What does that actually look like? those old childhood, 10-year-old parts of you that felt unwanted. 

 Can you give us a little glimpse of how you've gotten to know those parts that show up? How do you even notice it in your body?

[00:25:59] Tammy: I've noticed it happens usually when I pick him up from school in the car. So I'll pick him up and you know, he's tired, he's anxious, and it's, it's just. Sometimes is a hard transition, and so he'll say something and what I notice in my body is it feels like I disappear. Like

 Like I could be singing and having a little dance party by myself waiting to pick him up. He gets in the car and I'm like, Hey baby, how are you? How was your day? La, la, la, la, la. Right? Because Joy is usually here, and I'm all Joy, joy, joy, joy, joy. And he says something and I enjoy Joy. Joy. And he says something else, and then all of a sudden I feel like.

An invisible cloak has sort of come over me and I don't even feel like I'm there. I'm putting my hands on like 10 and two, right? My hands on 10 and two, I'm driving the car and all of a sudden it's like there's no more personality here, right? It's like I go from singing to, I'm not here at all, and I'm aware.

I but I really feel this cloak of like nothingness that I've completely shut down. Like I'm shut down, I'm numb. It feels like it takes over my whole body.

[00:27:07] Alison Cook: Sounds like a nervous system response, like it's not freeze necessarily, but you really do go into a form of a fight flight response inside of you. A part takes you out. Essentially. We all have those experiences and as you work with the parts, how do you in that moment, hang on to yourself.

[00:27:28] Tammy: so one of the thing, one of the things I think is really true is it's happened so much and this has become a part of me, that when I think about it and I consider some, like some of those moments that were really hard, I'm like, oh yeah, this part's been around for a long time. Right? It predates my son, right?

It predates it. It goes back to when I was little, sort of this really protective kind of cloaking numbing, shutting down. Part of me. And so I think one of the things I really recommend for listeners is to become really familiar with what we call their, your major players. Like who are the major players that are driving your bus, because then you can get really familiar with when they come.

Right? So this sort of shutdown part, I'm like, oh. Here you are buddy. Right? Like, it's almost like if sadness takes over that console for Riley, we all know what sadness feels like. Like you know, she's got her little, her little cute face and her little voice and we're all familiar with that part for Riley.

And so for me, and I think for us it's really getting familiar with like, oh, that's what's here right now. Right? So it's so totally blended. Totally took over that console. Totally started driving the bus. And so what I'll do now is I just will begin to breathe. And I will say, I am here.

And what I'm saying to the part is I know that you're trying to protect me, but I'm letting you know that I'm here. Let me be here. And 

 you see this beautiful scene in Inside Out too, where Riley has this panic attack at the hockey thing. And we sort of see what happens inside with anxiety. But outside what we see when joy sort of takes back over, we see Riley breathe. We see her open her eyes and look down at her skates. We see her senses come back online, right?

We see that she can hear the hockey puck and the hockey skates. We see this beautiful moment of her senses really grounding her. And so that's what I'm doing. I'm saying to this part, Hey, hey bud. I know that you're here. I know you're here for a good reason. Thank you for being here. 

 Let me be here with him. I've got this. You don't need to be here and let's just breathe And I, I'll stop talking to him, right? I'm not, I'm not gonna engage with him right now because engaging with him doesn't work in that moment. I might turn the radio on a little bit.

We're gonna look around, we're gonna look at the trees. We get home. We're gonna take our dogs for a walk, and slowly it feels like I come back online.

[00:29:47] Alison Cook: at that point, you're much more equipped to reengage with your son than trying to fake it in the moment. I think sometimes in those moments we try to fake it or we get mad, or other parts of us take over, but. What I hear you saying is breathing through it, taking your time, being present to yourself, which as a parent, we're kind of jumping into parenting, but the reality is our kids see through our phoniness and sometimes they're just in their own world anyway.

They don't, you know, it's just, they're fine. Sometimes it's like I'm just taking a minute to breathe through it. Right. 

[00:30:22] AD BREAK 2

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[00:30:22] Alison Cook: As you've done this work, as you've reconnected, and I so appreciate your sharing your story from the past and then bringing it into now present day. 'cause it's just so vivid, right?

Like those moments with our own kids replay the tape of our own pain points. That's just what happens. And I am curious, how do you connect spiritually? How is your spirituality of resource to you in those moments?

[00:30:48] Tammy: Yeah, no, it's a great question. I'll answer it sort of broader and then more specific. What's happened over, you know, I was gonna to an evangelical church here in New England, which was fine. All my friends went there and it was, it was okay. And then Covid happened. And during COVID, I discovered a.

Community called Closer Than Breath. And Closer Than Breath is a quote from Thomas Keating, who is a Catholic priest and sort of mystical, contemplative man And he writes that God is closer than our breath. And so I started doing some, some groups with this community and then Enneagram and uh, centering prayer group.

And so I was always curious about Christian, uh, meditation and what that looked like and what did that mean? And so I started doing, uh, these centering prayer groups. And so centering prayer is the idea that we take 20 minutes. We take a, a word and the word isn't necessarily a prayer word. The word is more like a, a windshield wiper.

'cause you know, our thoughts are going all the time, right? Our thoughts are chatty, chatty, chatty, chatty, chatty. And we use the word to kind of clean the windshield and sort of settle back into our heart to settle into like a prayer, to have more connection to the divine. so I started doing those groups and then I ended up going to a Quaker meeting And then I really enjoyed. The silence. You know, I'm a busy, busy, busy person, and so something happened for me during the silence, right? This sort of 20 minutes of silence or sort of the Quaker meeting.

It's an hour of silence around these people that just have this contemplative experience of God that just feels so beautiful and very aligned with what I know. My little Baptist girl. Inside. It's like that feels attuned and aligned. And also because I did go to a seminary, when they do study stuff that's not aligned, I'm like, that's not right, but my parts say it's okay because I have 

 this foundation and so I can go and I can take, take what works for me and sort of leave the rest kind of idea. So. Anyways, that's sort of where I am spiritually now is just enjoying this, this community of people that are just really connecting to God in this different way. That feels a little bit more experiential.

It feels more IF sy really. Right. It's really about sort of going inside and connecting, I think the Quakers say to that inner light To me, I would say the Holy Spirit or to that, that divine inside. If you're IF Sy, you would say to that authentic self. It's just this way to reconnect.

And to be more grounded and sort of open up to our true nature, right? We've kind of forgotten our true nature and we've forgotten this light that we are. And so it's a time and a space for my parts to quiet down and for me to reconnect to the divine and reconnect to God, and that feels really beautiful to me.

And so my partner is from North Carolina and when I go visit him, he goes to an evangelical church and I enjoy that. It feels like home in so many ways, but often I sit with my eyes closed and just sort of take in sort of, you know, what does God wanna show me or tell me through the music and through the sermon and, 

 but it's also to sort of ask my parts, just to give me space just to be here in this stillness and in this stillness. Nothing needs to be done in this stillness. I'm just like plugging into my power source, that source that wants me and loves me and is light and is love, and I can feel that.

Ultimate wanting, the ultimate healing that is beyond me and beyond, you know, what I can get on this earth beyond what my son can give me or my puppy or my partner, you know, it's, it's beyond anything like that. And then I had this experience that feels really healing.

[00:34:30] Alison Cook: What's kind of running through my mind as I'm listening is be still and know that I am God. Right. And just the way you brought that around to the ultimate being wanted. And the more you sit in that and train yourself through the slowing down, through the being, through the intentional quiet, through the intentional.

Practice of contemplative prayer and you plug in literally to that. No, no. This is where I'm truly wanted deep inside my core, where who I am meets who God is. Your parts start to trust you in those moments. Then when you're in the car with your son, when those parts still rear up, you've begun to retrain yourself.

No, no, There's more here. You know, it's beautiful. I love that you took us there. I also love Tammy, that your joy, your busyness, your, you're such an energy, you're such a life force. You know, you just light up a room. Those parts of you are just beautiful, right? And also, even with your son, you're lighting up the room and then he's kind of, you know, eing raining on your parade, right?

And those parts of you hijack you. All of that is welcome around. That centering place of here is God, here am I. I just love that you're tapping into that. That's beautiful. I.

[00:35:59] Tammy: Yeah. Thank you. I love the way you say that, right? This sort of, this connection, it's like bringing all of me, me, and all of my parts that are welcome and have good intentions and are wounded in some way and have all these burdens. We all come, to the divine for healing and for connection and for light and for just silence, right?

We all come and enjoy and take in this connection.

[00:36:26] Alison Cook: That's beautiful. Tammy, thank you so much for sharing with us. I would love for you to let the listeners know how they can connect with you and your work. Where can they find your podcast and your book and all the things you're doing?

[00:36:40] Tammy: Yeah, so if you just go to my website, everything's there, TammySollenberger.com and that's where my book and podcast and I'm on Instagram at ifs, Tammy. And um, we have a YouTube channel where we're starting to put. There's a really cool new start here where we put five of some of our favorite episodes.

So if you are new to IFS or you're curious about IFS, you can go to the start here page. It's on YouTube and it's not on my website, 

[00:37:06] Alison Cook: Before we close, I'd love to ask you two questions. What would you say to that younger 10-year-old with the wisdom that you have now?

[00:37:16] Tammy: You know, what I, what I would say and what I think about and what I'm, what I'm currently working with, a part of me, I have like a 17-year-old part that I'm, I'm really kind of hanging out with lately is this sort of desire to play more 

 and draw and paint and music, and just try things and really just experiment more. And that's what's beautiful about you. It's not having to succeed at anything, it's just playing. Go be successful at playing.

[00:37:46] Alison Cook: I. Love that. What would you say is bringing out the best of you right now?

[00:37:53] Tammy: You know, I think what's bringing out the best of me is this relationship that I'm in, you know, this long distancerelationship I'm in. It's, it's bringing out the best of me because it's, it's making me think about who do I wanna be? I wanna be more loving. What's keeping me from being loving? It's challenging me.

 to be like, okay, you're 50. Do you wanna be in a loving relationship? Do you want that? So then what do you need to do? What parts do you need to work on? What needs to happen inside of you internally for you to have the external relationship you always wished you had? Because here's the really cool thing, and I don't recommend people get divorced or have two relationships, but when you do and you end up doing the same thing, you're like, oh shoot, that must be me.

And so you can have the same relationship you had the first time. Or you can try something different. So what seems to be bringing out the best of me is being a little bit brave and a little bit vulnerable to love and to be loved in a really different way.

[00:38:59] Alison Cook: Wow, that's a whole word. I love that honesty. Again, Tammy, that's the freedom that comes with this work of really being able to look at your own self, your own parts, get really honest with yourself. What's mine to do differently? I love that you're getting this opportunity. You're the best. You're just such a light and I'm so grateful for the time you gave to us today.

[00:39:24] Tammy: Thanks, Alison, and I could say the same thing about you. I appreciate your friendship and all that you do for the world and for me just as a friend.

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‍

I’m joined by the brilliant and beautifully honest Dr. Heather Thompson Day for a conversation on spiritual wrestling. Heather’s latest book, What If I’m Wrong? Navigating the Waves of Fear and Failure explores what happens when the faith you once relied on starts to unravel.

‍

Heather shares openly about her father’s battle with Alzheimer’s, the spiritual crisis it triggered, and the years she spent in what she calls “spiritual drowning.” We talk about attachment, disappointment, failure, and the unexpected ways God shows up when everything else is falling apart.

‍

This conversation is a powerful example of how doubt and faith can co-exist. If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re allowed to question your faith—or felt like you were losing your grip on God—this episode is for you.

‍

We explore:

• What happens when the God you believed in no longer matches your reality
• How therapy helped Heather not just psychologically but spiritually
• Why what feels like failure may be something deeper—and more redemptive
• The unexpected miracle Heather experienced at the end of her long season of doubt

‍

This isn’t a story of tidy answers. It’s a story of holding on, even when you’re not sure what you’re holding onto.

🎧 Listen now and share with someone who needs a reminder: doubt doesn’t mean you’re losing your faith—it might mean you’re learning to trust in a deeper way.

🔗 Heather’s new book: What If I’m Wrong?
🔗 Connect with Heather: heatherthompsonday.com
🔗 Follow Heather on Instagram: @HeatherThompsonDay

💬 Got a question or reflection? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

‍

If you liked this episode, you’ll love:‍

• ⁠Episode 98: I Shouldn’t Feel Alone in My Grief—Why Your Grief Matters & How to Support Those Who Are Grieving with J.S. Park
• Episode 99: I Shouldn’t Feel Like My Spirit is Broken—Exploring a Broken Spirit & the Dark Night of the Soul with Christopher Cook

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.
• Go to ⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
• Save an additional 10% on any NIV Application Bible and NIV Application Commentary Resources by visiting ⁠faithgateway.com/NIVAB⁠ and using promo code BESTOFYOU
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• Right now, save $10 on your first purchase when you go to ⁠StoryWorth.com/bestofyou! ⁠

‍

Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

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While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

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© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

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Transcript:

ALISON Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of the Best of You Podcast. Before we dive into today's episode, just a quick reminder. You can now call in and leave a voicemail to be featured in a future episode. The number is 307-429-2525. We've already heard from so many of you and it's been incredibly meaningful to connect in this more personal way.

You can call with a question, a comment, or simply respond to this prompt. What is one area of your mental, emotional, or spiritual health where you like to grow? Right now just include your first name, where you're calling from, and your message, and if something from today's episode sparks a thought, that's a great place to capture it.

Again, the number is 307-429-2525. We'd love to hear from you. Now onto today's episode. This is one I've been looking forward to for such a long time. I've admired Heather Thompson day's work from afar for years. 

Dr. Heather Thompson Day is a gifted storyteller, speaker, bestselling author, and the founder of IT is Day Ministries. Heather has contributed to Christianity Today, religion, news Service, Newsweek, and the Bar Group, and she spent 15 years as a communications professor teaching public speaking persuasion and social media. She's the author of several books, including her latest that we're gonna get into today.

It's called, What If I'm Wrong? Navigating the Waves of Fear and Failure In It she invites us into the deep, raw, and very human questions that emerge when our circumstances no longer match the faith. We thought we had figured out in this episode. Heather shares honestly about her father's journey with Alzheimer's.

How it unraveled her own understanding of God and the years she spent in what she describes as a kind of spiritual drowning. We talk about grief, identity, the tension between faith and doubt, and how the experience of suffering became a catalyst for a more honest, grounded relationship with God. This isn't a story of neat answers or tidy theology.

It's a story of holding on even when you're not sure what it is you're holding onto. It's a story about the power of questions, the importance of honoring what hurts, and the miracle of discovering a God who never left. Whether you're in a season of wrestling or just hungry for a faith, it can hold the full weight of real life.

I think this episode will speak to you. Please enjoy my conversation with the brilliant and beautifully honest Heather Thompson Day.

***

ALISON I've known of you, I've seen your work, and so I just love, for me, this is such a great opportunity to get to know someone who I have admired from afar. I feel like we've kind of circled around each other. Yeah. But never actually connected, and so I'm just. [00:05:00] Thrilled to get to meet you today and get to have this conversation with you.

So I wanna start though, Heather, because you actually had me kind of just in that first chapter, just like, oh boy, really? You're gonna do this to me? 'cause I have a dad who's 83. You start off telling us about your dad and his battle with Alzheimer's. Tell me a little bit about why is this the way you started off this book where you're really exploring fear and failure?

HEATHER That story is the defining story of what feels like most of my adult life. Everything that I do. I was deeply impacted by my dad as a child, which I talk about in the book. My dad was the same man in his basement as he was when he was on stage, and I grew up in a van going with him from church to church to church.

Not even just the country. We went internationally too. And so I was always in the room where the Holy Spirit moved. And so I never doubted whether God was real. I've never had that journey. I always knew God was real 'cause I saw him and my dad, it was God and my dad felt very close. And so when my dad, God, Alzheimer's, now that was a different story.

All of a sudden then I started to not question whether God was real, but question whether I understood who God was. 

‍

ALISON You're saying something so important, let's just hit the ground running in terms of attachment, right? So much that primary attachment figure becomes our vision of. Who God is, which could be a wonderful thing for some people.

That's actually why they have a hard time trusting God. 'cause they're like, well, this person didn't model well, God. Well, in your case it was a beautiful like of course God is real. Of course God loves me. And then also that was. When your dad starts to be taken from you. So does also that image of God, that understanding of God.

HEATHER Yes. And it wasn't just the disease, it was the state that it left our family in. My dad gave his entire life financially to ministry. Every dollar he made, he always poured back in. And so here we were trying to figure out how do we afford a nursing home? And I can't even tell you the bitterness that came up.

When I started to feel like, okay, he gave his whole life to you, God, and you can't even make sure that he has a nursing home. That was very complicated for, and, and to be honest, I'm still working through those pieces, especially 'cause my dad always said, we barely talked about the Alzheimer's. I. While he could still cognitively discuss it.

'cause he always said, God's gonna take care of me. God's gonna take care of me. Don't worry about it. And we believed him and then came the time where that doesn't feel true anymore. Right? So what do I do with my image of God now? And so that it, it was like a three year journey of me in therapy and that's when I'm writing the book is.

What do we do in this space where my image of God feels as though it could be wrong? And let me, I'll just say this too, 'cause I know somebody right now is feeling frustrated that I'm even talking so negatively. So let me say this. I sent a text to my mom, and this is in chapter one, and I said to her, it feels [00:08:00] like Dad gave his entire life to ministry and he has nothing to show for it.

And my mom text me back 59 minutes later, though her read receipt said she had read it immediately and she said. You say Dad has nothing to show for it, Heather, he has you to show for it. I think you're wrong. And from that, I started to zoom out and this is like a three year journey, but I started to zoom out and say.

What if this life is not just about me? What if God is answering prayers that my dad prayed in my life? Like what if this thing is more than our singular experience and we're actually a part of a much larger, bigger global family 

ALISON Connectedness. Yes. That God taking care of your dad might look differently than what you had thought and I appreciate your foreshadowing kind of the end of the story.

And I also just wanna say again, from a parts perspective. So we talk a lot on the podcast about different parts. That's the model from which I work. This internal family systems, parts, everything you're saying makes sense. A part of you, right? That's what I love about that model. It's complicated. A part of you is mad, but again, you're trying to fill out a larger story that accounts for all of what you're experiencing, including a little bit of the frustration or a little bit of the doubt.

That to me, and that space makes sense. But let's go to the fact that you, 'cause you talk about this in the book, you went to see a counselor. You specifically chose to see a counselor who was not Christian. Tell us a little bit about that choice and why that was important to you. 

HEATHER My world is very Christian insulated. I worked at a Christian campus. I work in ministry. Some of my best mentors are literally, I think, have prophetic gifts. I am surrounded.

By wise Christian counsel, but my issue that I was struggling with had to do with whether or not my dad was, I say this in the book, there's a fine line between faith and delusion and I didn't know what side my dad was on, and so then I didn't know what side I was on anymore, and so I wanted somebody who would tell me the truth and not Alize it.

And I went to my non-Christian counselor and it was such a beautiful three years that we spent together. She was much less antagonistic to my faith. I was not prepared. I thought she'd be like, this is silly. No. She was like, how has your hope hurt you? You know what I mean? She's like, it seems as though you're living a really beautiful life.

And I said, wow. Okay. That's—I needed to hear that. 

ALISON It's really interesting. It's such an interesting choice. I've done the same thing in my own life for what it's worth. And the question will come up on the podcast. You know, should I always have a Christian therapist? And my answer is, not necessarily, but that diverges from what some other people will say.

And the reason that I say that is that similar to your point I, I'll say to people, you don't wanna see someone who has an agenda with you who's trying to shame you or talk you out of something. That's not the job of a therapist. But the job of a therapist is to hold up a mirror and help you understand your own self and your own faith.

Better, more objectively. And it sounds like for you it's like I'm almost gonna trust this person more if they're asking me questions without any sort of preconceived idea about what the answer should be. Yes. And she was respectful. That's the piece that's important. 

HEATHER She was incredible. And you know what? She was like fresh out of school. It, we just had such a good dynamic 'cause I think she was like hungry to, to be in there doing the work and I lucked out and got her. 

ALISON I love though that you were intentional about noticing this is going on with what's going on with my dad is affecting me. It's not just grief.

It's actually affecting me spiritually, psychologically, and spiritually. I'm gonna get support. I'm gonna get support very intentionally. And tell us a little bit about what some of that rumble was, Heather with. Doubt and faith and how you, I mean it's, this sounds cliche, but it's almost as if you went through another iteration of figuring out how to.

Make your faith, your spirituality, your own, even to another degree, separating it from your dad's.

HEATHER That's exactly what I was doing actually, now that you say that, yes, that's exactly what I was doing. I needed to know who I was. There's so many things that have helped me. Discover that, and I, I will say this to whoever's listening for me, knowing who I am has changed everything knowing who I am and who God is, because my circumstances no longer have to reveal to me what I know to be true about who I am.

And this is a new area of life I that I've ever been in, that I get to walk right now. And I don't think I could be here until I had nothing in my circumstances to affirm anything about who I was. Nothing was working. It felt like everything. I was touching, was failing. 

ALISON Give us an example. 

HEATHER Yeah, so a big thing that I talk about in there was my dream, right? So the book is about passion and how the word passion actually biblically means to suffer. So a lot of times we say, I'm doing this 'cause I'm passionate about it. And it's like I. Well, no, we like affirmation and we like accolades, and we like resources and open doors. Passion is what you cannot stop doing, despite not receiving any of those things.

What are you willing to suffer for and through? And so for me, I had said, oh, I'm a writer. And then the suffering started. Then books aren't selling in the same way that the last book sold. I think my, so my first book that I did sold 5,000 copies in like a week. This last book, I'll See You Tomorrow, sold 511 copies in the first week.

So I had done it. Just felt like, oh my goodness, I'm a failure. That's the only thing I've ran from, I mean, I got a PhD by the time I was 31. I mean, I have tried so hard to go the opposite of what I saw my dad do. My dad went all in with no safety net on just ministry and calling and passion, and so I said I'm gonna get as many degrees as possible to make sure I can have a stable, safe financial life.

Then it still wasn't happening, and I'm writing the book that I felt like God called me to write and it's not selling. I had to come to a place where I separated myself from the work too.

AD BREAK 1

ALISON There's so much in what you just said. First of all, passion as suffering. Wow. Nobody thinks about it that way. And probably you didn't when you went in with all this gusto. 

HEATHER Right. This is how I came to it. I started trying to figure out what's happening. 

ALISON Yeah. Feeling like a failure. Even though you'd worked really hard to not fail in air quotes the same way that you saw your dad in some ways, maybe he didn't fail spiritually, but financially there was challenges.

So despite your best efforts experiencing the very things you were trying to. Avoid. And so all of this, your dad getting sick, you questioning God, you wrestling with these failures, quote unquote, lead you to the place where you feel like you're drowning. Tell us a little bit about that before we get to the good news, because I want my listeners who are feeling that to be with us on this journey.

HEATHER It wasn't just a feeling it was chasing me. I was waking up in the night with nightmares of I'm drowning where I'm trying to get to the top of the water and somebody keeps pulling me back down and I'm somebody who writes everything down. I try to, I started this practice many years ago where. Whatever I'm praying or experiencing, I write it down and I put dates and I'm trying to watch God's involvement in my life, so I wanna see dates.

And what I found by keeping dates is that oftentimes God will keep an anniversary with me that I forgot. So he will answer a prayer sometimes. Maybe three days, but sometimes three years or 10 years to the day that I prayed it to the day, right. I have long since forgotten. And then I'll go back and I'll go through my notes and I say, oh my goodness, God remembered.

And so I'm having all this experience of dreams of drowning. I'm talking to my therapist and for the first time I'm talking with my family. 'cause we didn't talk about it, about my dad's Alzheimer's. We acted as if it, we didn't say the word. I need you to understand. My mom didn't tell her work. My dad had Alzheimer's for probably 12 years.

Her work didn't know until like a year ago. Even me writing this stuff in the book, I could tell she was like. And I'm, at this point, my dad's almost not even remembering anybody's names. Like you would catch now that he has Alzheimer's, right? He could fake it for a long time. Nobody knows. So we were living in this really strange place.

So for the first time I start even talking about it with my own mom, this was a big thing too. I was very afraid about who I would be. This is gonna make me cry when my dad wasn't there to confirm it. Because he believed in me. I, I mean, my dad took me to writing lessons when I was 15 years old. He was a dreamer.

And when I, I got expelled from school in eighth grade from my Christian school. 

ALISON Oh, I wanna hear that story, but keep going. 

HEATHER Yeah, I got expelled from school and I just had such a hard time in middle school because I was very opinionated and I didn't yet fully understand not to share unless people ask.

So I was always giving everybody my opinions. I was probably quite obnoxious, but it was very difficult for a Christian school, a small Christian school, conservative school, the handle in a female. And so I was always getting in trouble and kids didn't like me and I would, I just remember going home and just.

Crying like this. One time these girls left, um, these secret admirer notes for me for several days. And one day the note said, meet me at the fence. So I go to the fence and it's three girls laughing, right? Not this boy that I think is my secret admirer. And so I go home. I just need people to understand who my dad was.

For me. I'm pedaled biking home and I get home and I slam the door and I crawl under my bed and I'm just sobbing. And I can remember my dad coming into the room, sitting on the bed and saying, what's wrong? And I tell him, and he's like, Heather, I. You're gonna be somebody. I know it. I see there is something in you.

I'm just telling you, God is calling you to something. And for so much of my life, I only believed that because my dad had said it. And so without him there to say it, when my dad doesn't know my name anymore, who am I? And I remember my therapist said, you know, like everything your dad has put into your life.

That doesn't leave when he's gone, that stays. And that was a light bulb for me 'cause I just kept thinking about what I'm gonna lose. And then I realized I'm not gonna lose any of the things that he's given me. Yeah. 

ALISON It's in you. It's in you. It's actually internalized inside of you. But parts of you didn't know that, man. That's that's powerful. 

HEATHER Yeah, so I was drowning and I'm still treading water. I would not right now, be like, I'm a strong swimmer. No. I feel like I have better tools now. I know, okay, go on a walk, call somebody and tell them that you're struggling. Go to sleep. I have tools to navigate the situations that I'm in that I don't think I had before. I was using a lot of perfectionism to just numb. 

ALISON Gosh, it makes so much sense again from an attachment perspective, that that safety you felt with your dad that in many ways gave you a positive image of a loving God. Also didn't fully get remapped onto God, and then almost even anger with God for taking that away from you.

HEATHER Now I need to meet with you after. Right. Because it's like, wait a second, and then when I'm losing my dad, I'm losing my image of God. And so now, oh my goodness. It's almost like I'm, I had to go through this rebirthing experience and childhood growing up and learning how to walk with God on my own.

ALISON That's profound. But that process, it makes sense to me. Would have sent you into the drowning. Yes, I've lost God almost. 

HEATHER I lost a God who saved me, like my dad saved me 'cause he wasn't jumping in and saving me and my dad did. And what do we do with a God? So this God? Yes. Who are you? 

ALISON Oh man, I can just feel that. So. You go and ask these questions. This is the title of the book. What if I'm wrong? Is it, what if I'm Wrong about God? Is that kind of where this question, what if I'm wrong? That seems to summarize this drowning experience. 

HEATHER Yeah, so Martin b Copenhaver did some work and he found that Jesus asked far more questions than he gave answers.

Of the 183 questions he has asked, he only directly answers three. Okay, so I had lived a life being told God gives you the answer, and now I'm in a season where I'm not getting any answers. And so what I found were questions. And then I did all this research to try to understand what am I experiencing?

And I realized actually God is far more comfortable with questions than answers. God who has all the answers comes to earth and doesn't feel the need to give us them. [00:22:00] Jesus, who could have written his own gospel. Would've taken very little for Jesus to sit down and pen something directly from his hand, and he doesn't do it.

He allows his story to be told through his people. He allows us to sit and ask questions and wonder, and so I just realized I'm going to have to get comfortable with a God who believes questions are more important than answers. 

ALISON Disorienting, disorienting, and has in some ways created a wound or hurt. In terms of this person you love so much.

I mean, it just, I get it. It just makes so much sense. So through this process of getting comfortable with the questions, what were some key moments, some key lifelines that sort of made you kind of be able to come up out of the drowning? 

HEATHER It just kind of felt like drowning, and then I had one breakthrough that made me realize I was never drowning.

That's honestly what happened. And I tell the story at the very end of the book. Long story short, the same days that I'm writing in my prayer journal, God, where are you? God, don't you see me? God, I have no money in my bank account. God, what am I supposed to do? There was somebody that God had sent into my life.

I just didn't know who they were, but they had been talking to me and, and anyway, that person at the end of the book ends up. Providing for me in a way, literally is funding my entire salary for this year. Multi multimillionaire that had found me on Twitter. Just another crazy story, but that's for the end of the book.

But then I realized, oh my goodness. The entire time that I said, God, where are you? He was right there all along. I had been talking to this woman the entire three years. I just didn't know who she was, right? But she had been encouraged. I wrote about her, I wrote her words in my prayer journal with the date.

No idea that she was gonna end up feeling stirred by God to pour into my [00:24:00] ministry financially. I had no idea. This is what I'm saying about my circumstances. I don't need my circumstances to reveal what I know to be true about who I am and who God is. I know that God is here. I know that God loves me, and actually I know for a fact that God is with me, and if my circumstances don't reveal it.

I'm gonna hold on and I'm gonna wait. 

ALISON Because you had that experience of literally after three years, it's almost like the cloud's lifting you going. Oh, there he was. All along. All along. 

HEATHER As long as I am telling him, you must not be powerful. 'cause if you were, you'd help, something is not right here. And he allowed me to think, to just thrash and thrash and then realize, oh my God, I'm swimming.

This is just what it feels like to swim for 18 hours in tough, current and strong waves. This is just life. 

ALISON Yeah. And so much of it is the wrestling, right. The questions. 

HEATHER Mm-hmm. It sure is. And it's not giving up on the questions—and it doesn't mean that I've done anything wrong. Exactly. And in my search for answers for perfect little Christian answers that I had needed and that worked for me in my past until they didn't, I.

God had provided answers much quicker. This experience was three years where I didn't get answers and things just kept getting stripped away. My podcast, which was a, another line of income for me, stopped growing and we had to cancel that. My book then didn't sell. Then my university is talking about they're going through financial hardships, so they're talking about renegotiating my contract.

Literally everything. That was my safety net that I had. Built with all my hard work and degrees was being stripped away from me and for God to have been with me through that entire thing all the time that I finally see at the end. I'm just, I'll never be the same. I'll never be the same, and he's my God Now.

AD BREAK 2

ALISON To me, this is the literal definition of a miracle. We want the miracle, and the miracle is the lifeline now, or the answer now, but the miracle is that you kept thrashing about in the water for three years, and were willing to ask the hard questions and to sit in this pain and to suffer in amidst passions and things that were not your fault. Long enough to then see. 

HEATHER and I'm just gonna tell you, I will say this, I never stopped praying and some of my prayers were angry. Like I said, you must not be who I think you are. But I never left the room. I just remember Annie saying to me one day it was raining and I was like, I'm not gonna go on a prayer walk today 'cause it's rained.

She's like, you're gonna let a little rain stop you from experiencing God? I was like, no, I'm not. And I went. And so I learned for the first time, I typically, I, I've always done prayer walks, but in Michigan, that's where I lived. When it was winter, I didn't go 'cause I'm, I'm not crazy, right? It's cold. No, it's dark.

There's tons of ice. No, for those three years I walked every winter, you know, and it, something was born within me in the winter that I could not have experienced, I think in any other season. And now I get to take that with me, I hope into. I hope, Lord New Seasons. 

ALISON Yes and amen. I love how you draw upon, uh, that work of wintering. I only read that here. 'cause some in that season, somebody on Instagram said, I think you're wintering. You should read this book. I read it. Oh my goodness. What a beautiful book. Such a helpful naming of Yes, that season. Heather, I wanna just touch on just how you came to terms with failure. The word itself.

I think we could turn on its head because so much of what you described happening was just, it wasn't even failure in the sense of, it was just things were being stripped away out of your control, but it, we experience it as failing. How did you. Come to terms with that. You're a woman who's very capable, who's done some [amazing things.

Not only what does that do to your faith, but how did you come to terms with that in terms of your. Self-concept, 

HEATHER I think, well, part of it, like I let it be, again, this was a three-year process, so I remember days where I really struggled to get out of bed and then I read necessary endings. That was very helpful to me too, to start saying, oh, maybe this isn't a.

Failure. Maybe this is a necessary ending, right? So vocabulary for me as a communication professor, that really helps my brain say, oh, I'm having an inappropriate relationship with this word. So now this new word is helping me reframe. You know, I said this to somebody else in an interview, and I think I offended them because they like corrected me.

So I'm just gonna say it and it might offend somebody, but I'm, I'm just gonna tell you what I experienced. I felt like I did let go of God. I think God did not let go of me. He did not let go of me, and so that got me through. I really think he carried me through. I'm just telling you, if we're on the merit system that I wanted God to operate under with my dad, I no longer received the merit 'cause I said some really nasty things to God.

I kept praying, but I also just said things that I was taught you never say to God, and he just loved me through it. I'll say this too, this language in my brain as a writer, this was helpful. In my brain, I always thought the good part of the story is what happens to you, right? The hero goes through difficulty, but then something beautiful happens and or a miracle comes, and now it's a good story, okay?

The Lord revealed to me, that's not the story. You are the story. So a heart that remains soft, despite circumstances that are hard, that's a beautiful story. It doesn't mean that the circumstances ever change. I don't have to have God bless me in order to choose to bring blessing to other people. I don't have to have God be good to me in order to choose to bring goodness, and that is a blessing that only belongs to the righteous, the wicked would never perceive of doing such a thing.

Blessing and goodness is available to me at any time. And if I partake in that, that's a beautiful story. And so I started living as if the story was just my response, not what happens, which I can't control. 

ALISON It's a paradox. You're saying something really deep. It's in the sense, it's like I'm letting go of old God, you know?

And I don't know what bigger God is, but to me that is the essence of faith. It's almost like calling God, I'm gonna keep doing what I know to be true, even if you are not. Who I thought you were, God. To me, that's faith. And to me also, when you think about the parenting model, you think about a good parent, which is what you are rumbling with in many ways.

A good parent, you think about a parenting a teenager or a young adult, a lot of times they are pushing off of you. That is part of the deal. And a good parent is sometimes knows when to be like, you just keep pushing. That's what you need to do right now. And I'm here and I'm not gonna let this connection be broken.

I'm big enough for this. Right? But it doesn't feel that way from where you are. You feel like I gotta let this go. God's like, okay. You do that, you just, it's, he's not offended by that. You know? Yes. 

HEATHER He was not offended.

ALISON not offend, not easily offendable God.

HEATHER but that's not what I was taught. I'm not saying by my dad, but I'm saying by the system that I was raised in, the church that I went to, the school system that expelled me. That's not what I was taught. I was taught just by what I saw. God very easily gets offended and we have to protect it. 

ALISON Yeah. And gosh, Heather, this is where we could go into so many different directions. 'cause I'm curious how your faith journey is now. This is where I, to me, this is just good psychological development.

This is the overlap where I think the church gets so caught up in kind of keeping us young. And it's not, we're not breaking outta anything. It's just, listen, if you've parented young [00:32:00] adults, this. Your job as a parent shifts, and God designed this so God knows this. We have not changed, but our kids' experiences of us change.

They think they need us less. They actually, in some ways need us more, but the way they need us is different. They're asking different questions, they're trying to differentiate. This is all healthy, but in the church it's almost like we try to keep people fearful and God is so much bigger than that. So I really love.

You were brave enough, I think some of that part of you, you know, that in middle school was willing to, you know, call a spade a spade was brave enough to be like, I gotta be true here. God. 

HEATHER Yeah. Well that's part of the work that we do, right? It's like, if I am, authenticity is very important to me and right.

And so how do I keep talking to people about something if I'm struggling to believe So, yeah, I needed to go on this journey so that I can stay true and authentic in the ways that I serve. 

ALISON What does your faith journey look like now on the other side of this three years? 

HEATHER I feel like I'm learning. I'm still learning. I just had a difficult thing last week, but it was interesting 'cause he followed it up with like the opposite. So somebody modeled for me something that was kind of painful, but then literally three days later I. In a similar experience, somebody modeled for me something that was like above and beyond anything I, I deserve or should have asked.

And I just said, okay, you're revealing to me the type of person I want to be. Like, I want to live the way this second person responded to me. I'm looking at life right now as if there's so much to learn, but I'm hoping to end up in a more joyful state because I've been very serious about God for a long time, and now I wanna find that joy in being.

And laughing. Sometimes that's hard for me 'cause I'm somebody that like, I'm a feeler, so if I see other people drowning, it feels like, should I even be happy right now [00:34:00] if there's, you know, so I'm learning this balance and I feel called into joy. That is what I'm feeling called into. And to know this side of God.

ALISON Now, as God's beloved daughter, yes, again, you never, not, we're not right, but just in that experience of, oh, I do have. Good. Father, I wanna read this, Heather, because this, this is toward the end of the book. You said a month ago, my mom realized my dad didn't know who she was. They've been, they've been married over 40 years.

That's what Alzheimer's will do to a once perfectly happy family. It will make you forget that you are ever perfect or all that happy. I just know I love you. He told her, when she asked him who she was. Then you map it onto your own journey when you don't know who God is anymore. When you don't know what your dreams are or what passion you're willing to keep suffering through, when you can't remember whether you're an option B or option 1 42, I hope those words are all that remain.

Lord, I just know that I love you when all is stripped away from us, as bony Christians. May that be all That's true. Here is what remains. I don't even know that I know you anymore. God. I know that I love you. I mean, that's just so powerful. 

HEATHER I remember I was on a prayer walk. It was this last winter. I just remember saying that out loud.

I said, I don't know anything anymore. But here's what I do know, and I know that this has to be true. 'cause there's no circumstances that would make it true other than it's within me. I know I love you and I know I'm gonna keep showing up to be in this relationship with you, and it's not about what you can give me. And it's not about what I think I've earned. 

ALISON It just is. Even when I don't get it, I sometimes think about it when I kind of. Everything kind of falls by the wayside and I can't make any sense of anything. And I'm like, and here is God. Here is God still. But I love that and, and I still love you. I'm still here.

It's so beautiful. And the power of even that literal sense of your dad, not exactly recognizing your mom anywhere, but I still love you man. 

HEATHER I just learned so much from even watching this phase of him in Alzheimer's. 'cause that's what he was telling her is, I know I love you. I just don't have the words anymore to say who you are, but my heart recognizes you.

I mean, what a beautiful piece of just life and humanity in this really horrible situation that I get to keep another piece, that I get to keep with me long after he'll be gone. 

ALISON This goes without saying, but I just feel so much of God's delight in you and in you telling this story. In your father's delight, in you and in you telling this story.

I love the story that you've told through this book. I think it's gonna help a lot of people who I do hope. So go through this. You know, we don't talk about it enough. How do you let go of your faith and keep your faith? It feels like we've got these two options. You know, I can just burn the thing down or I can kind of fight for it and wrestle.

Maybe not even fight for it at times. Let it go. Thank God. Still remains. It's just such an important offering. So tell everyone where they can find the book and find your work and connect with you. 

HEATHER Yeah. Hey, it, what if I'm wrong? Wherever books are sold, HeatherThompsonDay.com. My website has everything to connect with me and book links and all of that.

ALISON It's just a beautiful journey and I appreciate you sharing it with us. 

HEATHER Thank you so much for letting me share it.

OUTRO

ALISON Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and click the plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others while you're there.

I'd love it if you leave your five star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God. You heal others and you stay true to your God given self.

 What if your most distressing thoughts aren’t who you are—but a signal pointing to pain that needs healing?

‍

Therapist and author Monica DiCristina joins me to talk about the deeper emotional and spiritual wounds that often lie beneath distressing thoughts. Monica shares her personal journey with trauma-related intrusive thoughts and the power of finally naming what hurt.

‍

We also explore what to do when intrusive thoughts show up in our inner worlds, how to seek the right kind of support, and why healing always starts with curiosity rather than shame.

‍

Pick up your copy of Monica's new book:  ⁠Your Pain Has a Name: A Therapist's Invitation to Understanding Your Story and Sorting Out Who You Are from What Hurts⁠

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Connect with ⁠Monica DiCristina⁠

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📞 Call 307-429-2525 to share your thoughts or a question for a future episode.

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If you liked this episode, you’ll love:‍

• ⁠Episode 134⁠: Bridging Mysticism and Science—A Personal JourneyThrough OCD with Therapist Ryan Kuja
• ⁠Episode 97: ⁠I Shouldn't Feel This Anxious—Insights on Trauma & Healing with Monique Koven

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Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

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While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

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© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

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Transcript:

Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of the Best of You Podcast.

Before we dive in, I just wanted to take a moment to thank you. Several of you have left reviews of the podcast recently, and it truly means the world to me.

So much heart and effort goes into creating this podcast and hearing how it's encouraging you personally is truly what keeps me going.

SH2Rose wrote, I like Dr. Cook's perspectives from the psychological and spiritual side of issues. Her vulnerability is an asset as a show host. Wow. Thank you for that. It's hard to be vulnerable, and I appreciate that encouragement.

MobilizerMom wrote, I've read your books, but the daily work is still trying at times, and I appreciate having you in my ear to encourage me onward in it. Again, thank you for letting me know. It really means a lot to me.

MarissasReviews wrote, As someone with anxiety and OCD, I really appreciate Dr. Allison sharing things related to mental health challenges. As a Christian, it's very encouraging.

And lastly, JennaFTally wrote, I look forward to every new episode and even go back and re-listen to old ones. There's always something new to learn, and it's much appreciated.

Gosh, again, thank you. I so appreciate you're taking the time to write these reviews. It's helpful in getting the word out about the podcast, but even more your words are a gift to my own heart and my own soul, and I don't take them for granted.

Today's episode is a powerful one, one that I hope meets you with gentleness and clarity, especially if you've ever struggled to make sense of the pain you carry. I'm joined by Monica DiCristina. She's a therapist, writer, and the author of a brand new book called Your Pain Has a Name—A therapist's invitation to understanding your story and sorting out who you are from what hurts.

Monica's work is rooted in the belief that healing begins when we learn how to name what hurts. Her writing and clinical practice offer a thoughtful, deeply compassionate lens on emotional health, trauma, anxiety, and the. Inner stories we all carry. Many of you may already know Monica from her beautifully encouraging presence on Instagram or her substack where she writes about pain, healing and the slow work of growth.

Monica and I both share a passion and a belief that healing doesn't begin by pushing feelings away, but instead by turning toward them , with curiosity, honesty and care

In today's conversation, Monica shares her experience of an early childhood trauma and the years that followed years marked by intense anxiety and what clinicians call trauma related OCD. That's a term for unwanted thoughts that feel deeply out of character and that Monica couldn't find relief from until she began to get to the root of her pain.

But this conversation doesn't end there. It's about perseverance. It's about what happens when we keep seeking help, even when we're initially misunderstood.

It's about finding the right name for what we're experiencing, and it's about the healing that becomes possible when someone finally sees you clearly and helps you see yourself with new eyes.

I'm so honored to welcome Monica DiCristina to the podcast. Let's dive in to our conversation.

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Alison: Well, Monica, As we were talking before we started recording, we've known each other online and you're such an encouraging presence online and have such beautiful,  wisdom to offer. It's just really fun to get to meet you finally. So thanks for being here.

Monica:  Thank you so much. It's such an honor and I have loved following you online and I'm just honestly so inspired by you and the way that you carry the different topics you carry all at once, it's really awesome. So it's such an honor to be here.

Alison: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. As fellow therapists, there's a lot we surf and to try to figure out how to surf that publicly sometimes is. . .

Monica: It's not easy. That's right. Yeah. I love the way you do it.

Alison: Well, I would love to start with you the way you start in the book a little bit with your own story, as much as you feel so inclined to share. Monica, you share in the book about the importance of naming our pain and, and you get us there through sharing with us your experience of having some pretty significant pain as a sexual abuse, correct?

Monica: Yeah, I would say sexual violations, in my early years. Mm-hmm. Outside of the home.

Alison: Outside of your home—you had a sexual violation that led to years of what you call scary thoughts, intrusive thoughts, how would you label it, sort of trauma induced OCD, like thoughts.

Monica:  Yeah. Yeah. So, as you know, as a therapist, when you experience early violations, what I concluded, and maybe listeners can relate to this, that I was bad. Something was wrong with me, and I walked around like that for years without knowing why I felt so bad.

I didn't know that what had happened to me wasn't my fault. I didn't know what the name for it was. And so walking around with that and hitting adolescents and hearing other things going on in family history or in the world, I developed a pretty intense anxiety disorder, which specifically like you said, I would say was trauma induced OCD, and a lot of us think about OCD, like washing your hands or things like that. I didn't struggle with that. I struggled with something that's even more shameful to talk about for so many people, which is intrusive thoughts, which is scary, violent thoughts that just assaulted my brain and I had no idea what was happening.

You know—no one's talking about this at a sleepover. My parents loved me and they wanted to care for me. They just thought what is happening and just, you know, told me not to worry. They did their best. Right. As many parents of my generation did. It was just a different time in mental health.

Alison: Yeah, so you were telling them about these did after a while.

Monica: Yeah. I was so desperate, you know, that I got over the embarrassment and over the shame and told them and, and nobody knew what to do with it. Nobody knew what was going on with me.

Alison: Yeah, I, and I hear this from friends, from clients, it's not uncommon that when you've been through something, your body registers as traumatic and you don't know how to process it, that your thoughts just start grabbing onto things. You describe it like "it was like living in a horror movie. When these thoughts start to play through your mind, imagine the worst thought that has ever popped into your mind. And then imagine it never goes away, but repeats on a loop and grows limbs." You know, it just takes on a life of its own. And this was most of your teen years and into college that this was happening to you?

Monica: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And like many people, I put on a good front, you know, I white knuckled my way through performing, through making good grades, through going to college, but. All the while I was literally caving in inside, desperate to figure out what was wrong. And so I, I started going to any source that I knew.

And it was right around that time that I found my faith , and started going to alter calls or to any pastor that would listen and any, um, small group or leader that would listen and confessing all of these scary thoughts that was happening. And you can imagine even people who wanted to help, might've thought, what's going on? Right?

Alison: It's so interesting that you use that word confessing, as if you felt like you were doing something wrong.

Monica: I did. And that's one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about mental health and about naming pain is because I didn't know any different. Now, of course, I know different, this is decades ago now, but I didn't know any different then.

And I think a lot of people think they are their thoughts—they are their depression, they are their anxiety. They do feel the need to sort of fess up to it or, you know, confess it when it's, really isn't something you're doing wrong, it's something that's happening in you or to you.

Alison: So let's talk about what happened. Cause this went on for a while, where you're trying to get help through "confessing." You I go see a pastor.

Monica: Yeah, I did.  I was 16 years old, so I'm driving and I went to see this pastor who was kind enough to meet with me, you know, and, and, I think at a precaution for meeting with a young girl by himself, he left the door open with the secretary across the hall. It was evening time, and as I began to tell him, you know, this is what I'm struggling with.

This is what's going on. I have all these scary thoughts and I'm worried about it. I feel like I'm bad. He shushed me the really loud SHHH. As an adult now, I know he was trying to protect me, I think. I think he was trying to protect me from the secretary overhearing what I was talking to him about.

But the experience in my body was a magnification of the shame I was already feeling, which was sh this is. This is not something you wanna tell people. This is not something you wanna talk about. And he had no idea what to do with me either and sent me on my way. He was kind, I think he did the best he could, but he sent me on my way.

Alison: It's such an interesting - the way that you described that, right? That his intentions may well have been noble. And even then you call it—and you and I share this emphasis on naming— there's a misnaming there that this is something  to keep quiet. This is something shameful that contributed to what was already the shame already festering inside of you.

Monica: That's right. You know, even if your story is nothing like mine, if you're trying to get help with something and you run into someone who doesn't understand what's going on, doesn't have the name for it, you often leave feeling more ashamed.

Alison: A hundred percent. It's one of the reasons it's hard for me sometimes—this emphasis on healing happens in relationships, which I know is true. And also when we're reaching out for support, so often when we're struggling with something like you're describing, even the best of people, let alone the worst of people who are actually trying to shame us, which also happens, even the best of people can mishear us, miss-see us, misname what's happening and, and that's not always reliable. It's tricky, especially when you're young and you're trying to figure it out and you're trying to figure out who to trust and you definitely don't trust yourself. It's really tricky. So you, you go on to say you had a friend, I think it's in college?

Monica: Yeah. .

Alison: This is really where it gets interesting, you were very persevering, Monica, in your story, and you'd been telling this friend and she didn't know how to help you, but maybe part of her genius was she knew what she didn't know and she kept trying, right? She kept trying to help you find someone who could help you. So tell us how that played out.

Monica: Yeah, I mean, before I tell that story, I really want to add to what you said that part of her genius was she knew what she didn't know. This is one of the best ways we can love one another is when we are willing to admit our limitations. We are willing to say to someone. I don't know what's happening.

I don't know how to help you, but I care about you and I'm gonna stick with you until you find out what it is. And that is life changing in relationship, right?

Alison: A hundred percent.  I'm not sure but I'm gonna stick with you. Whether you're a pastor, whether you're a parent, whether you're a friend. Whether you're a therapist. We're then not moving into the misnaming. We're saying, I'm with you. We don't have to get it right.

Monica: That's right. Yes. And so this dear friend, took me to go see our pastor, that we were going to this, church in college and you know, the church as many church plants are, was still meeting in a trailer, you know, so it was this sort of gravel parking lot and we're walking up and the squeaky door and this tiny little space that we're sitting down and.

We began to spill my story our working theory was that maybe these thoughts weren't mine. Maybe they were something spiritual happening. And this pastor just kind of leaned back, you know, in his chair. And I know that he wasn't sitting above us, but that's what it felt like. I, you know, like he was sitting above us and, and began to preach down that no.

There's no way, and what felt like condemned me to sole ownership of these thoughts. Now, of course, these are my thoughts. I've learned more about anxiety disorders, but what was the most difficult about that is there was no curiosity. There was no compassion. He didn't look at these two young women and say.

Are you okay? Do you need help? Can I help you find some help? He gave us a sermon instead about what he believed, and we walked back to her little car in the parking lot. And as I had felt before, I felt even more shame in even more alone. The, the more times we go to people who aren't willing to say, I don't know, but I care and I'm gonna help you find out, the more it stacks that we start to feel, gosh, maybe I am the problem.

Alison: He was shooting down your working theory, that it was spiritual and instead where was he locating the problem?

Monica: He was locating the problem as—he didn't say sin, but it was as a me problem. There was an implication of that.

Alison: Okay, so again, you're perseverant, I mean, I was amazed reading this. I'm like, my goodness, at some point I  would've probably, just locked this up behind a brick wall and not told anybody for another 15 years. You kept seeking out—What is happening? It's in the part of your personality. I imagine there are times that part of you might. . .

Monica: Wear me out! (laughs) Yeah. Gosh, I feel so seen by you saying that. Thank you. You know, it was, I think sometimes when we're hurting, even if we run into walls over and over again, we're just so desperate and, and what I believed about my faith, I believed God wanted to help me. I believed that, you know, I really did.

That's part of. What gave me the courage to keep going and to keep looking for help was 'cause the God that I had met, cared. The God that I had met, I knew wanted to help me, but I just couldn't find that help yet.

AD BREAK

Alison: Amen. I love that you knew this was not of God. Even as the shame was building, even as the frustration and confusion was building. Your story feels a little bit like a Indigo Girl song. "I went to the pastor, I went to the preacher, I went to the this, I went to that. . ." I'm just trying to find some answers, right? And so you have a breakthrough moment and this is another friend, a different friend.

Monica: Yes. Thank goodness for college friends. Yeah. So I had another friend who had a father that was a psychologist and this friend was brilliant and, just seemed mystified at, at what I would have to talk to her father about. I wasn't as close to her, so I didn't unload my story to her like I did to my roommate, but I just said, "I think I'd really like to see your father." And she helped set it up., Again, it was a different time—therapy was not as common. It wasn't as de-stigmatized. It definitely was not as spoken about in the church. And so I went to see her dad. And the basement of a Baptist church.

He was a psychologist that had a whole practice there, which now as a practicing therapist, is fascinating to look back and think about. And I remember when he called my name in the little waiting room and I walked around, I was terrified. Keep in mind, I've been running into shame over and over again, running into people who had no idea what was wrong with me, and he just wasn't scared.

And he wasn't shocked and he really normalized my story. He gave names to it. He told me that what had happened as a little girl, of course, wasn't my fault. He taught me about anxiety. He taught me that a thought is just a thought. He taught me about all these things that suddenly what had been the terrifying narrative I'd been believing about myself. Turned out had names, turned out it made perfect sense and I wasn't as bad, quote unquote in that shameful way as I had feared I'd had some hard things happen. I definitely was struggling with an anxiety disorder, but that all had names and made sense, and the relief of that was life changing.

Alison: It's so powerful. This is the name of your book, right? Your Pain Has a Name.

Monica: That's right.

Alison: So talk to us a little bit about that. Why is that movement from no name from chaos into, "oh my gosh, this is what it is." I write about this and I Shouldn't Feel this Way, this naming, This is what it is. Oh my gosh. Even when it's a hard diagnosis but it's like, I, what is it about that, in that moment that felt so freeing to you?

Monica: It is the exhale and the relief of understanding yourself. And in that exhale and relief, you're able, at least in my experience, and I've seen this with clients, to separate yourself from the stories you've been believing. And you can't do that until you accurately name something, right?

You have to remember, I was walking around believing, I'm bad and I'm terrible, and these thoughts are really me and really come from my motivations, right? But being able to name that all the sudden, all those scary stories I thought about myself weren't true. And I think that when we're able to define, put boundaries around identify pain, then we're really able to understand it, to separate our true identity from it and to find what we need to feel better.

Alison: It's so true. It really is. It's Dan Siegel's work in interpersonal neurobiology of "naming is taming". It really is. There's something about it that goes, okay, I now can figure out what to do with this. And in your case, Monica, it seems like it led you into a whole new path, including your current work.

Monica:  Yeah, absolutely. It was so transformative for me to meet with that psychologist, Dr. Barnes, that I thought if I can do anything in my life, it would be to help bring people relief. Like he brought me relief. He didn't solve what had happened to me. He's, it's not a magic wand, but he helped me name it and so.

That is when I decided to become a therapist was that early on in my early twenties, I wanna help people who don't know what's wrong. I wanna help people who feel stuck.

Alison: And there is a name for that experience that you had with them. You talk about it in the book, it's called a corrective emotional experience. It's a great word, but it is again, a helpful naming of a positive thing that happens. What's happening in that corrective emotional experience?

Monica: Yes. It's a good therapy term that we use a lot, which just means that you're having an experience that almost redeems and repairs previous ones, you know, so that instead of going to him and getting dismissed, I went to him and I found answers, and I found also normalization and acceptance and knowledge.

And so a corrective emotional experience can be something like that, or can be something relationally where something, that didn't feel good had happened before, and then you have a similar experience and it feels so much better. It feels healing.

Alison: Yeah, because you'd had all those other examples of going to a male expert authority and having a really painful experience. And I've had those in my own life in different areas, not just in therapy where someone kind of undoes the pain of the past through just one moment. And and it is a little bit of the, "I'm not crazy" what was happening over there was not okay. And my body was reacting to it because it wasn't okay.

And now that this has happened, and this is what I so long for, what I do believe is true and good and healing, and what actually is what I needed, oh my gosh, I'm not crazy. And I wasn't crazy for feeling that way. And now this reveals to me that, "oh, this is what I needed all along. This is what I hoped for all along." It's very powerful.

Monica: It can be transformative and it has an element of validation. You know, where someone sees you and someone sees what you've been through and someone has enough experience, wisdom or knowledge to name what you've been going through with you or for you, right?

And that there's that relief. Gosh, I'm not crazy

Therefore it's not in me.

Alison: I want to Monica, switch gears for just a second into some questions I have for you as an expert, as a therapist, specifically about the nature of your intrusive thoughts. Because I it's not that uncommon. Now, a full blown diagnosis of OCD is a very different thing. We did a whole episode on that with, therapist Ryan Kuja, who talked us through a lot of that. You can go back and listen to that episode, for those of you who are interested.

There's different forms though, of intrusive thoughts, especially if there's been a wound, especially if there's been a trauma that's gone unnamed. It is one of the ways that at times our brain will kind of cue us to: Something's happened. It's like a little kid just desperate to get your attention in those thoughts.

But it's very disruptive and very disorienting if you don't know what that is. Could you share with us a little bit from your expertise about how you understand what was happening in, in your mind and, and in the minds of clients who deal with this?

Monica: You know, the official term that we would use is ego, dystonic, intrusive thoughts, ego dystonic means it goes against your values, it goes against who you are, what you want, what you believe. And when you have these sort of intrusive thoughts that are fueled by an anxiety disorder or fueled by trauma. They often are ego dystonic in nature, meaning that there's something that would scare you or, or that you would never do in real life. But until you know that it's just a thought and it's part of that anxiety sort and and actually loops on itself, and it grows.

The more you fear it, the more it grows. You think, oh my gosh, what am I capable of? What's wrong with me? And, you know, one of the places that we see this as in perinatal mood disorders, right? When new mothers struggle with an ego dystonic, intrusive thoughts, where they struggle with images of their baby getting hurt or them hurting their baby. Now, they don't wanna do that. That's not real. But until they know that this is something the brain can do. It's not you, it's not your heart.

Alison: And you're not going to act on it.

Monica: No, in fact, quite the opposite. That's the irony about ego, dystonic intrusive thoughts is that it's quite the opposite. It attacks exactly what you wouldn't do, but you can imagine anyone, whether it's a new mom or a teenager or someone who has a scary thought and doesn't have OCD thinking, oh my gosh. What does this mean? What does this mean? That I had this scary thought and it's really important to identify and to name a thought is just a thought.

It actually is something that flew through your brain. It's neurotransmitters going through, but it's not what you wanna do. It's not the same as values or motivation or who you are. It's just a thought.

AD BREAK

Alison: I love the examples you're giving where it can become in the form of something I might do to someone else to cause harm. In my experience, it can also happen in the form of and maybe this is more in the realm of flashbulb memories, this might be a little bit different, but where you're getting the intrusive thoughts of something really awful that's happened to you or something that could happen

Monica: Yeah, and I think that there's definitely a Venn diagram there of unwanted thoughts, and it's intruding and it's scary, but there's a difference there where it, it is almost like a memory or a fear that that comes in that form of the thought, whereas more the OCD style is - It's almost more random. Do you know what I mean? It's not attached necessarily to a memory, a painful event.

Alison: But in your case, the intrusive thoughts were to some degree connected to the traumatic event.

Monica: Yeah, and I think that that's an important distinction. I think that what we don't talk enough about with trauma is, when it's, undiagnosed, how it just proliferates into a bunch of different symptoms. And I think that was what was happening for me is that I did have these events that happened early on.

I concluded these things about myself that I was bad or it was all my fault or something was wrong with me. That is what my, scary thoughts fed on oh gosh, there is something wrong with you. And then I would have a scary thought. Well, that confirms it. And then I'd have another scary thought.

And so it definitely was tied for me to that. But there are incidents for sure of people having, intrusive thoughts or scary thoughts that don't have a trauma history. Right. Anxiety is a very multifaceted thing.

Alison: That's right. Well, and your example of, postnatal, is a great example of actually something wonderful has happened the chemistry of the body is just doing such that it's just creating these thoughts that are really outta nowhere.

Monica: That's right. They come outta nowhere, and that's part of what's scary about those kind of thoughts is that oftentimes people have never had them before and they don't know what to do with them.

Alison: So I love this naming of scary thoughts. For the listener who  had experiences of that particular naming of this ego, dystonic OCD, or this scary thoughts, how would you encourage them?

Monica: I would first encourage them by normalizing it. If you look at the research, it is remarkable how common this is. So one of the scariest, most shameful part is that. Oh my gosh, something's wrong with me. No one else has ever felt this or thought this, and I've got news for you: They certainly have, and so many of them have, myself included. So I would first just normalize it.

And second is part of the lie that comes with that is that there's something wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with you. Your brain is firing in ways that is creating some suffering and fear for you, but there's nothing actually wrong with you.

And then the third is that. You're not your thoughts. I mean, if I told you right now to think about pink elephants, well, I bet you just thought about a pink elephant, right? It's just a thought and it's really important and freeing once you begin to separate yourself from those thoughts.

Alison: And my guess is if you're someone who struggles with that, there's a flip side of that sort of creative thought process that is also very enlivening. Me bringing my sort of IFS lens to it—there's a part of you that kind of can come up with these dark, intrusive thoughts that is not wanted. Also, my guess is there's a flip side to that.

Monica: Yes, uh, this is anecdotal, so it's not research based, but anecdotally, my experience with people that struggle with anxiety or, scary thoughts are often so creative. They often have incredible imaginations. Right. And it is, it is like the flip side of that.

Alison: So, to broaden this conversation out, tell us a little bit about what you're hoping to do with the book with Your Pain Has a Name.

Monica: Yeah, you know, I start the book with my story to kind of, as we would say, go first, right? To to let you know you're not the only one who's had something or felt embarrassed about something. And we can talk about hard things and we can name them, but it isn't a book about OCD or intrusive thoughts.

It's really a book about pain. And I have found that so much of the research we read, the amazing books we read are really naming things and, and it's so important to name things because once we begin to name what hurts or doesn't feel good, we're already.

Three steps closer to separating ourselves from that pain or from the false stories it's told about us, right? Because you, your pain might be a critical upbringing, right? Where it was never good enough,  you were never good enough, and you've walked around carrying the ghost of that all your life and being able to name that pain.

Accurately is gonna be a really important step for you, getting free from that and remembering or returning to who you actually are. So my hope is really to help people as they name their pain, to be able to come closer to who God made them to be. You know, pain often gets us very lost and especially when it's undefined once we define it, we can find our way back home.

Alison: Yeah. I just love that, that naming what's trauma, naming what's upbringing, and even to the point of some of my work, which is naming a part, naming an inner critic. This is actually an inner critic at this point. That can be part of the journey. At points naming what is spiritual, right. Sometimes it is; a lot of times it's not. And you do a great job of that in the book too, we both talk a lot about this thing of spiritual bypassing where we realize things that are not in fact spiritual. So it's a false naming, and at the same time, sometimes it is a spiritual root. And so naming is a really— It takes some skill. It takes some work. And that's what I love about your story that you shared in the book that permeates and is showcased in your ongoing expertise - it takes some grit, it does take a little bit of perseverance to get the right name. I wish sometimes it was easier.

Monica: I wish it was too. And as I was writing the book, I thought, is this gonna be marketable? Because I really try to honor the grit and, the, how long it can take to find names for your pain. I even say at the end of the book, I may not have named it, but this is one more step where you're learning to name it. And, and I think it's important to note too, that some of the pains we name. Can't be healed. They have to be weathered and honored, like grief, There's grief, there's big grief that we can all recognize and understand as grief, but people are often also carrying grief about relationships or, um, not being where they wanna be in their life.

And it's helpful to name that, not to solve it, but to honor it.

Alison: You know what else? Even just as we're talking, it occurs to me, there's a certain naming, and I hope this is encouraging to the listener who's like I, I haven't been able to figure it out. There's a certain normalizing of saying, you're in process. You don't have the right name yet, and that can feel very disorienting. I don't know why I'm feeling the way that I'm feeling, or I don't know why this doesn't seem to be working, but even just naming that.

Monica: Yes. I just couldn't agree with you more.  I could just celebrate that because it's so true. And I think that we live in a fast culture. And I love social media with all the therapy things, and I participate in it, but there's a lot of before and after, there's a lot of fast fixes.

There's a lot of: "Three steps to your best self," and the reality is it's not always that easy, and it's important for people to know they're not alone in that there's nothing wrong with them. And this to be a gentle reminder to keep going.

Alison: I'm gonna find that person at some point or that moment

Monica: Or that book.

Alison: That's so true that breakthrough of, "oh, this is what's going on for me." Monica. What would you say to that younger you now?

Monica: Such a great question. I would say there's nothing wrong with you. You know, some hard things happened. Your pain is real. You're struggling, but there's nothing wrong with you. That scary old story that you've carried around, that you're somehow other or there's something wrong with you, just was never true, you know?

And you're okay. And you're gonna be okay. That's what I would tell her. Or anyone who can relate to that listening.

Alison: I love that. And what's bringing out the best of you right now?

Monica: I would say honestly it is walking my dogs. It is so therapeutic for me. You know, the bilateral stimulation of walking, but also the fresh air and it makes them so happy, which makes me happy and it  in a busy life and a lot happening everywhere.

It feels like my exhale, it feels like. Time away. So I would say that that is definitely bringing out the best of me right

Alison: That's beautiful. I love I that. I concur - I have two dogs too. And it is, it is just a highlight. Tell my listeners where they can find your brand new book - this is your first book - find your work, find all the things that you're doing.

Monica: You can find me on Instagram. It's @Monicadicristina and dicristina has no h—it's a common, a common thing I run into, or my website is monicadicristina.com and there you can find links to my Substack, which is my favorite place to share, just longer form than Instagram. The book is Your Pain Has a Name and it's everywhere that books are offered. And it'll be out May 13th.

Alison: That's awesome. I'm so grateful for you. I'm so grateful for your work, for taking your own pain and transforming it into healing resources for others. It's so important. It's such beautiful work. You're the real deal. Just a beautiful presence. So smart. It's such a great book and just thrilled to have gotten this chance to connect with you today.

Monica: Thank you so much. I just admire your work and you create such a safe space in this podcast and just in everything you, put out in the world. So thank you. Thanks for having me.

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We're tackling a topic that continues to strike a chord with so many of you: how to make a change when you're stuck between loyalty and growth, guilt and freedom, regret and redemption.

If you’ve ever struggled with a complicated relationship or wrestled with the quiet shame of feeling stuck, this episode is for you.

We explore:

The 3 brave paths you can take when a relationship feels hard.

A powerful story of a woman confronting regret.

How to distinguish between true guilt and false guilt

What "radical surrender" really means.

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Whether you're braving a big life change or feeling held back by old emotional patterns, I hope this episode gives you courage, clarity, and compassion.

📞 Plus, don’t forget to call 307-429-2525 to share your thoughts or a question for a future episode.

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If you liked this, you’ll love:

• ⁠Episode 140⁠: If You Struggle with Guilt and  Second-Guessing Yourself, This Will Set You Free – How to Stop Blaming  Yourself for Things That Aren’t Your Fault

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‍Thanks to our sponsors:

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Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

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While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

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© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

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Transcript:

 Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Best of You podcast. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to give you just a quick reminder that we are inviting you to be part of a future episode.

We've opened up a phone line where you can call in and leave a voicemail with your thoughts, questions, and comments. You can share with me a question you'd love for me to address on an upcoming episode. You can share with me an area where you've been trying something new but feel stuck.

Or, I'd love for you to simply answer the following question: What is one area of your mental, emotional, or spiritual health where you'd like to grow right now?

Just call 307-429-2525 and leave a quick voicemail with your first name, where you're calling from, and your response. We've already started listening to some of your messages, and I can't wait to share more of your voices and thoughts and stories in future episodes.

And if something sparks your thoughts from this week's episode, it's a great place to capture it. Again, the number is 307-429-2525. I'd love to hear from you.

Now, for today's episode.

It's been exactly one year since I Shouldn't Feel This Way released into the world. And today I want to return to a chapter from the book that continues to speak to me and to so many of you who have reached out to me this past year. It's from Chapter Four—all about braving a new path. If you've ever found yourself stuck between guilt and growth, this one is for you.

I wanna start with the story of a woman named Priya.

I've changed her name, and the names and details of all the stories in this episode, to preserve confidentiality. But I wanted to share these stories with you because there's something in them for all of us.

I saw, years ago, Priya loved her mom. She was loyal to her mom. They'd been through a lot together, and in many ways, they'd been more like best friends than mother and daughter. When Priya was 13, her mom had finally left an abusive spouse and years of turmoil behind her.

Both mother and daughter had become inseparable. But as she had become an adult, Priya had noticed that her mom's love had strings attached to it.

When she left home and started to forge her own life—especially including marrying and having kids of her own—her mom seemed to resent it.

As Priya and I began to meet, she explained to me the complicated feelings that she was feeling. She loved her mom. She admired her resilience. She was grateful for their relationship. On the other hand, she was really frustrated and angry about how controlling her mom had become.

She found herself hiding aspects of her life from her mom—even lying to her mom at times—to avoid conflict, because she just didn't know how to deal with her mom's criticism and passive aggression.

As Priya laid out all the different truth pieces of what she was feeling, a picture of a complex situation emerged. She loved her mom and felt loyal to her, and at the same time, her mom was exhibiting some problematic behaviors.

Priya was frustrated and angry with her mom, but instead of dealing with the situation, she was lying to avoid conflict.

Like many of us, she felt trapped between frustration on one side and loyalty on the other. She was grateful for her mom's good qualities.

She didn't think her mom was a bad person. But she also didn't like how her mom would try to control her through passive-aggressive remarks and criticism. She didn't like feeling guilty for having a life apart from her mom. And she also didn't like that she was lying about it.

As I worked with Priya, it struck me that so many of us find ourselves in situations like these—relationships that aren't bad enough to leave but aren't the healthy, vibrant relationships that we crave.

And this framework that I lay out in I Shouldn't Feel This Way addresses these kinds of complicated situations, where you name what's hard, frame your reality, and then brave a new path.

Priya's story resonates because so many of us have felt caught between what we've always done and what we suspect we might need to do.

The moment we start to name this divide—this dissonance inside our own souls—we're stepping onto a brave new path.

When it comes to braving complicated situations, I’ve found one of the most helpful frameworks to guide your next steps is to consider the following three options:

1. Fight for change.
2. Leave the relationship or the situation.
3. Suffer it wisely.

I want to unpack each one of those a little bit.

The first option is to fight for change. You might fight for something within yourself. For example, you might fight for improved mental or physical health, or better coping strategies.

You might fight for healthier boundaries. Or you might fight for a healthier relationship with someone else—a friend, a parent, a child, or spouse. You might fight for a job or for a dream. You might fight for justice in the world around you. You might fight for the health of your community.

Alternatively, through this process, you might determine that the best course of action is to leave something or someone behind. It may be that you need to leave behind a way of thinking, a habit, or a coping tactic that's not serving you anymore.

You might need to leave a relationship that's causing harm. It's simply not wise or sustainable to continue to give this person access to your soul. You might need to leave a job, a church, or a group.

Finally, in many cases, you'll choose the third option: to suffer wisely.

Now, when I share about this framework, this last one is the one that gets the most attention. Some people love when I lay out this option. Sometimes it's very activating for people. So I wanna make sure you understand what I mean by suffer wisely.

Sometimes it's the only choice you have.

For example, you might need to suffer a health condition or a painful medical diagnosis. You can't make it go away, but you can take brave steps each day to care for yourself.

You might have to suffer a job that you do not like but need. Or you might have to suffer a challenging relationship.

For example, maybe you have to co-parent with an ex who betrayed you. You can't remove yourself from the relationship entirely, but you can work to mitigate further injury.

There are also times when you deliberately choose a challenging path. You might decide to remain in a challenging situation for specific, clear reasons.

For example, you might choose to stay in a marriage or in a relationship that's hard but not bad enough to leave. You might not sever ties with an adult child who is mistreating you, even as you set boundaries to protect yourself. You might choose to care for ailing parents, even as you work to shield yourself from their criticism or constant guilt-tripping.

To brave the path of suffering, regardless of the cause, is a nuanced and complex decision.

It's a path we all face at various times in our lives. Suffering wisely is not passive. It requires wisdom, clarity, and intentionality. It requires healthy boundaries, self-care, and a skill psychologists call radical acceptance.

Radical acceptance does not mean you approve of a situation or believe that a certain behavior should continue.

Nor does it mean you're resigning yourself to misery or giving up. It's not martyring, nor is it pretending something isn't hard. Instead, it means equipping yourself to deal with a hard situation realistically—taking charge of what you can while releasing what's out of your control.

Whether you choose to fight for change, leave, or suffer wisely, you give yourself the gift of agency.

Healthy actions in any of these three paths flow from a place of self-awareness, inner conviction, and integrity. While you cannot remove all suffering, you can wisely brave your way through it—empowering yourself to navigate challenges with resilience and self-compassion.

As you think about your own complicated situation or relationship, which of these paths calls out to you?

Do you feel a nudge to fight for change?

Do you feel that quiet voice of it might be time to leave?

Or are you aware that this might be a situation that you have to suffer wisely, with intention?

Notice what you feel as you consider each of those three paths.

***

As you brave a new path, no matter what you choose, do not be surprised if you notice guilt, regret, or even ambivalence as you move. It's so normal for these feelings to surface in the wake of challenging decisions, and it's so important, when you notice any of these emotions, that you pause to notice those feelings with compassion.

It's normal to feel these emotions after you make a hard decision.

For example, when you take steps to brave a new path, you might notice the voice of regret:Why didn't I figure this out sooner?Why did I waste all that time?Why didn't I know better before?

When you make a change, you often stir up old wounds that remind you of past mistakes or regrets. This is a normal part of growth. The trick is to honor the feelings of regret, even as you don't let them hinder the progress you are making.

My client, Ava, taught me a powerful lesson about regret in my early work as a therapist. By the age of 38, she had already weathered more than her fair share of storms. A pattern of abusive relationships, stemming from childhood traumas, had cast a shadow over much of her adult life. Two years prior to starting therapy with me, she'd managed to finally break free from the latest cycle of physical and emotional abuse.

She'd sworn off men, gotten a place to herself, and embarked on a journey of healing. In many ways, she was doing great, but she was also living in isolation. One day, as we sat in my office together, Ava told me that she had run into a childhood boyfriend.

His name was Tom. He was a kind-hearted guy who had loved her through her tumultuous teen years. They had dated briefly, but mostly he had been her best friend. Seeing him again years later stirred up a cauldron of emotions,

and she became filled with regret.

"Why was I so stupid?" she said to me, angry with herself. "He's such a great man now, and a wonderful husband and dad to someone else. Why did I walk away from him? That could have been my life."

As I listened to Ava, I fought against all the things I wanted to say to comfort her or to make the pain of regret go away.

Instead, I sat with her quietly, feeling that pain with her. After a few moments, I asked her a question that was formulating in my mind:"Ava, is it Tom himself you want, or are you longing for something he represents?"

She reflected for a moment.

"It's not Tom. I'm happy for him and the life he's found. I'm just so sad about the girl I was back then. The girl he saw in me. The girl I lost shortly after we broke up."

"And what was she like, Ava?" I asked.

"She was smart, good-hearted, full of life. She had dreams. So much promise and potential. And he saw that in me. He saw the woman I could have been."

"What if that woman he saw is you?" I asked. "What if she's still in there?"

She nodded thoughtfully and then said softly, "I want that to be true."

She told me later that something profound lifted from her that day. As she honored her regret, she'd bravely gotten herself out of a toxic pattern of relationships.

She was in a better place, but she was hesitant to brave the next leg of her journey.

She had wanted to open up to the possibility of healthy, loving partnership again, but some part of her was whispering, "It's too late for you."

When she faced regret head on and worked her way through it, she was able to reframe that old message. While she couldn't go back in time, she could brave a new life ahead.

She realized something incredibly powerful about the subtle nature of regret. She didn't regret that path not taken way back then. She regretted the person she hadn't become—and it was not too late for that.

I love this story because it reminds us that it's never too late—not for growth, not for courage, not for change.

As you consider the challenging situation you are in, is it possible that feelings of regret about the past are keeping you from braving a path forward into change?

***

There's one more obstacle to braving a new path I want to discuss. The most ubiquitous obstacle most of my clients face when they start to brave a change is guilt. When you make a change that's wise for you, it often means disappointing someone else.

Guilt messages swoop in. If you're not careful, these messages will lure you back to that place of confusion and turmoil—right back to that place of confusion and turmoil, right back to where you started—that "I shouldn't feel this way" moment of beating yourself up instead of braving a new path.

And that's why it's so important to name guilt when you feel it, frame it accurately, so that it doesn't hold you back.

The bottom line is this: The presence of guilty feelings does not mean you have done something wrong. It might mean you've done something brave.

I want to pause here because this is such a powerful truth: The presence of guilt does not always mean you've done something wrong. It might mean you've done something brave.

Guilt is an emotion—not necessarily a direct message from God. Therefore, braving guilt involves getting curious about it, just as you would any other feeling, such as sadness, anger, or fear.

Guilt has important information for you, but it does not always have the full perspective. It is helpful to distinguish between true guilt and false guilt. The messages of true guilt show up after you've done something wrong.

You'll know it's true guilt if you can name the thing you did wrong:I yelled at my kids. I lied to a friend. I betrayed someone's trust. I shared their confidential information in a moment of gossip.

In these cases, true guilt brings conviction. It involves a clear prick of the conscience, followed by clarity about the offense.

You'll then need to determine your next braving steps. You'll work to change your own behaviors, and if it's appropriate, you can apologize or make amends.

On the other hand, the message of false guilt shows up when you haven't done anything wrong.

You'll know it's false guilt if you can't name an actual thing that you did wrong.

You might feel a vague sense of not measuring up to some impossible standard either you or someone else has set.

For example:I feel guilty that they feel disappointed. I feel guilty that I'm not available 24/7. I feel guilty that other people might be inconvenienced.

In the case of false guilt, you can tell yourself a thousand different ways that you shouldn't feel guilty, but you do. Guilt clings to you like a frightened child:What if I have done something wrong? What if I've hurt someone? What if I've made a mistake? What if they'll never forgive me?

The solution in this case isn't to try to shoo guilt away. It's to gently reframe guilt and give it a new name—one that more accurately describes what you're feeling.

The truth is that false guilt often protects you from facing other more vulnerable emotions, like sadness, fear, and even helplessness.

These emotions can be challenging to face:I'm sad that I'm disappointing my friend—I don't wish to.I'm worried I'm letting my kids down—I want to do right by them.I feel helpless that I can't improve this other person's situation.

Of course you don't want other people to feel disappointed or let down, or even inconvenienced. You don't want others to be hurting. But it's not helpful to tell yourself that these things are exclusively your responsibility.

When you experience false guilt, you essentially feel guilty for being human. You feel guilty that you are finite. You feel guilty that you're not omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

In other words, you feel guilty that you're not God.

The good news is: You're not. You're finite. You're limited. You're human. We all are.

The antidote to guilt in this case is radical acceptance of your human limitations. It's what we mean by the word surrender.

***

When you surrender, you reframe your expectations of yourself:

Guilt says, I should be perfect.
Surrender says, I'm not perfect—and God is enough.

Guilt says, I should have done more.
Surrender says, I gave my best—and I have to trust God with the rest.

Guilt says, I'm letting people down.
Surrender says, I am limited—and God's grace is enough.

Do you see what I am getting at? The antidote to guilt is a radical acceptance of our dependence on God. It's choosing to bravely suffer the reality of our human limitations wisely.

God, I don't want to disappoint this other person. I don't want to make a mistake. I don't want other people to suffer or hurt or be inconvenienced. And I have to be brave. I have to make decisions. I have to live within the limits of my own capacity—of my own humanity.

Braving radical acceptance and radical dependence on the One who actually holds all things together is the work of an active faith. It isn't shrugging your shoulders in the face of complex challenges and saying, "God is in control."

An act of faith means taking steps to change what you can change. It means taking responsibility for what is yours to own. It also means bravely surrendering to the reality that you are not ultimately in control.

There's a profound shift that happens when we surrender—when we glimpse the end of ourselves and reach the boundaries of our own capacity. A moment of surrender is quite possibly the bravest act there is.

It's not that challenges magically resolve themselves. It's that when we become aware of our own limitations, our own frailties, our own finitude—we discover that's where God loves to enter in.

It's where we stumble upon a deeper strength. Surrender does not mean passivity. It does not indicate a lack of effort. Nor is it giving up. You are doing everything in your power. Yet these problems are just so big at times.

In a moment of surrender, all that mental work comes grinding to a halt. You stop. You breathe. You release your grip. And in that moment, something clicks together. Our loving God, who has been there all along, breaks through a little bit. That divide between where you are and where God is disappears.

Your mind calms. Something inside your body shifts.

You take a break. Move your body. Call a friend. You let the tears flow freely. And sometimes, you just sob.

And then—you get back up. And with God's help, you take that next one brave step.

As we mark this one-year anniversary of I Shouldn't Feel This Way, I hope this excerpt reminds you that no matter what you're facing, there is a brave step you can take.

Your regret doesn't have to hold you back. It can become a redemptive signal. And your guilt doesn't have to be your enemy. Sometimes, it's just a sign that you're stepping onto unfamiliar—but sacred—ground.

If this episode speaks to you, I hope you'll share it with a friend.

Remember: You are already beloved. In light of that truth, what's your next one brave step?

What if fear isn’t a warning sign—but a signal you’re stepping into something that matters?

‍

I’m joined by the brilliant and creative Mary Marantz to explore why fear often shows up right before a breakthrough—and how to stop seeing it as a reason to back down.

‍

We also get into:

* How fear hides behind perfectionism, people-pleasing, and procrastination

* The surprising link between fear and creativity

* Why grief is often the first step in learning to trust yourself

* What it means to become the “grown-up in the room” for your own healing

* How naming your inner critic can help disarm its power

‍

Check out Mary’s new book Underestimated!

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📞 Don’t forget—We want to hear from you! What’s one area of your emotional, mental, or spiritual health where you’d like to grow? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a voicemail with your name, where you’re from, and your answer. Your voice may be featured in a future episode!

‍

Resources:

• The Mary Marantz Show
• Check out Mary's earlier books: Dirt and Slow Growth Equals Strong Roots
• ‍Underestimated: The Surprisingly Simple Shift to Quit Playing Small, Name the Fear, and Move Forward Anyway by Mary Marantz
• The Best of You by Dr. Alison Cook
• ‍achieverquiz.com
• ‍Get the first chapter of Underestimated at marymarantz.com/underestimated
• @MaryMarantz on Instagram
• ‍Dr. Alison on The Mary Marantz Show

‍

If you liked this, you’ll love:

• Episode 10: What are Limiting Beliefs and How Do I Overcome Them with Mary Marantz
• ‍Episode 20: Making Peace with Yourself (& Facing Your Fear of Disappointing Other People)

‍

‍Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to Quince.com/bestofyou for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
• Save an additional 10% on any NIV Application Bible and NIV Application Commentary Resources by visiting faithgateway.com/NIVAB and using promo code BESTOFYOU!
• Visit GoGeviti.com to learn more about how you can start optimizing your health without leaving home today and use code BESTOFYOU.
• Give your loved ones a unique, heartfelt gift you’ll all cherish for years—StoryWorth! Right now, save $10 on your first purchase when you go to StoryWorth.com/bestofyou!
• ‍For 20% off your order, head to Reliefband.com and use code BESTOFYOU.

‍

Editing by Giulia Hjort / Music by Andy Luiten / Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author. While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript:

‍

Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. Before we dive into today's episode, I wanna share something new we're trying, because I'd love to hear from you.

‍

We're opening up a space for your voice on the podcast. We wanna hear your questions, your comments, and from time to time, we wanna hear your input–what's going on in your life, what you're noticing, where you wanna grow, or where you're gaining wisdom.

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For now, the question I'd love for you to answer is, what is one area of your mental, emotional, or spiritual health where you'd like to grow right now? To answer the question, call 307-429-2525 and leave a voicemail with your first name, where you're calling from, and your response. 

‍

This is something new for the show and I'm really excited about it. There's something powerful about hearing your voices and weaving your wisdom and questions into future episodes. So again, that number is 307-429-2525. I can't wait to hear from you.

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And now for today's episode. Have you ever felt like fear shows up right when you're finally stepping into something meaningful? Or maybe your inner critic with its tired, familiar scripts is waiting in the wings to remind you that you're not quite enough?

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Today, I am joined by the brilliant and wildly creative Mary Marantz. You may know her from her own podcast, The Mary Marantz Show, or from her earlier books, Dirt and Slow Growth Equals Strong Roots. She's back today with a brand new book, Underestimated: The Surprisingly Simple Shift to Quit Playing Small, Name the Fear, and Move Forward Anyway.

‍

What I love most about Mary is how she brings together soul, deep honesty, and storytelling that makes you laugh, cry, and recognize yourself in the most unexpected ways. In today's episode, we talk about why fear shows up right when the work really matters and how to recognize the many faces fear wears–perfectionism, people pleasing, imposter syndrome, and more.

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We talk about what it means to become the grownup in the room, the one who can be trusted, and how a moment from reading my book, The Best of You, became a meaningful turning point in Mary's own journey. You'll also hear us talk about how grief is often the very first step in learning to trust yourself again.

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This conversation is filled with deep insight, eighties metaphors, and some seriously powerful truths about reclaiming your voice, trusting your timing, and facing fear with courage and compassion. I'm so thrilled to share my conversation with Mary Marantz.

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***

Alison Cook: I'm thrilled to have this conversation with you, Mary, about this incredible book. I know you've been on the podcast before, but for those of my listeners who are new to you and your story, I wanna start with your background, because you talk about growing up in poverty and being the first member of your family to go to college. 

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It wasn't really even on the docket for you, and yet you end up at Yale Law School. You have this saying, “growing up without a lot does something to your brain”. Tell us a little bit about that.

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Mary: Yeah. I don't know if maybe it's the prefrontal cortex still developing the neural pathways over time, but these bad generational thoughts turn into bad generational patterns. Maybe it's inhaling all the mildew. But there's something that happens in your brain that makes you expect to fail before you even start. 

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It is this idea that no matter what you do, you will never be enough. And what's interesting is, man, there's just so much nuance to this, Alison, and before I even jump into that, thank you so much for having me here, for endorsing the book, for believing in this book from the very beginning. 

‍

As I'm sure we'll get into, it was a conversation with you that sparked the book idea. So your fingerprints are all over this. But one of the things that I think you know about me, about the books I write, about the conversations I have, and I think it's very true of you as well, is there's a lot of nuance in what we talk about. 

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Things are not just an easy yes or no. It's not black or white. There are a lot of shades of gray. And so even that word poverty gets really interesting. One of the things I learned through writing my first book, Dirt, is that there are a lot of different kinds of poverty. There is poverty of food, like food insecurity, and I never personally experienced that, but I would say that I had poverty of home, like the home condition.

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The condition of the trailer was in really rough shape. The ceiling was caving in, it was raining as hard on the inside as it was on the out, the floorboards were caving in, and there were mushrooms growing out of the carpets and every imaginable bug and undesirable animal you can imagine.

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Then there's poverty of love, there's poverty of family, there's poverty of parenting. I didn't have those in particular either. I am from a region of Appalachia where we would bristle at that–”ooh, could we even call that poverty”? But as a grownup now standing on the outside, looking back at my condition, I can say, yes, there were parts that were poverty. 

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If that sort of living condition existed in New Haven, Connecticut, somebody would intervene. That's not acceptable or normal in this part of the country. So we're really proud people. We're really stoic people, and we’re underestimated. I write a lot about how that has influenced me, walking around in the world in this very self-sufficient turned self-sabotaging way. 

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I don't want you feeling sorry for me. I don't want you averting your eyes from me in some sort of sympathy shame on my behalf. I do not want your advice unless specifically asked for, because it burns in my ears and tastes like condescension. I don't want you to worry about me. Then I'll have to worry about you worrying about me. 

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And so it really does shape how you walk around in the world. There's a lot of nuance there.

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Alison Cook: I can hear the different parts of you wrestling with it. There's an honoring, and I love that about your work, Mary, an honoring of the way you grew up. And also, there are ways it really created some neural pathways in your brain that, to this day, that's a big part of the new book that you’re wrestling with.

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Tell me a little bit about fear as one of those voices that shaped some of those internal messages.

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Mary: One of the things that I have learned, both in my own life and through my work coaching women who wanna write books, people who wanna have businesses, who wanna build courses, who wanna speak on stages, is they need a signature talk. I started to notice that a lot of the same kinds of sentences were flying out of their mouths at a lot of the same parts of the process. 

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Fear can be so frustrating and resistance can be so frustrating. It got to the point where I was like, right on time, there we go. Of course fear's gonna show up and say that right there. Of course, that's what he does right now. It led me to pick up my phone one day and hop on Instagram a couple years ago. 

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I filmed this video outta frustration at fear, and then posted it, and it took off. It was like, it's all been done, it's all been done better, it's all been done by somebody the world actually wants to pay attention to. I can't start until it's perfect. I can't start until I am perfect. What if I start and I don't know all the steps in the blueprint? What if I start and I can't stay consistent with it? 

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What if I don't have the bandwidth? What if I start and the critics come? What if they say, who does she think she is? What if my voice doesn't matter? What if I don't really matter? What if it's already too late? 

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This was like a head-exploding-emoji moment in my life. It's the kind of high that every writer dreams of. It's that moment when two dots connect in your limbic brain in a way that we've never seen them connected before quite this way. And it was, what if fear attacks creatives in particular, because it is jealous that it itself is not creative at all? 

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It is not tethered to muse or melody or the force of all creation. The only gift it is imbued with at all, is this ability to throw its voice and pretend like it is your own. So it attacks creatives because it is not creative at all, and it's jealous of that fact. Fear is not a creative guy. But he is a productive guy and a busy guy. 

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Like any productive overachiever, he's learned how to prioritize and he's gonna only show up if the work you're about to do really matters. So we can actually use that if fear shows up–good. You're about to do work that matters.

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Alison Cook: Okay. There's so much in this. The first thing I love is the personification of fear. We do a lot of IFS work on the podcast, so I'm thinking about the movie “Inside Out”. Fear in the way that you're describing it becomes that ubiquitous voice. 

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Mary: Yeah. I love that. And I love that's where your brain went, because for me it’s very similar. In the book. I actually made a joke about it–I want you to picture nothing short of the Grinch making his to-do list: stare into the abyss, solve world hunger, tell no one. That's the productive overachiever whose heart is three sizes too small, that I imagine fear to be.

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Alison Cook: Ugh. That's so good. That's so good. Fear is there. It's there for all of us.

I love that you're highlighting that these messages were so consistent because when that voice is in our own heads, it feels very unique to me.

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Mary: That's right.

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Alison Cook: This is all about me. This is very personal. I'm not good enough.

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Mary: And you start noticing, wait a minute, the voice of fear is very similar.

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Alison Cook: It’s not creative. It shows up particularly when we are being our most creative,

and then give me the reframe again.

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Mary: He's not a creative guy, but he is a super busy guy. And like any good productive overachiever, he's learned to prioritize. If you're already playing small, if you're already hiding in plain sight, a little maintenance by fear, a little self-sabotaging, a little perfectionism sprinkled in, and you're all set. 

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But show up and actually do the good work that's been prepared for you in advance, the work that's actually gonna change lives and help people? You’d better expect fear to show up, teeth bared and snarling in this entirely different version of itself.

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I did this Instagram post a couple days ago actually, where I took this and ran with it a little bit and I said, what fear doesn't know is that we've actually pulled a classic rope-a-dope. We've pulled him in close enough to wear himself out, and as our Rocky 4 soundtrack swells, we're getting ready to hit him with the knockout punch.

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If fear is the most boring, unoriginal, uncreative, predictable force out there, now we use that weakness against him to predict when we're on track, because he wouldn't show up if the work we were doing didn't matter. He would just sprinkle some perfectionism on us and let us go. And so now it's like, cool, fear's in the room. Great. I'm on the right track. 

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I've really used that in my own life. Every day of my life at this point, I'm a little bit afraid, and I'm like, great, that means I'm doing stuff that matters.

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Alison Cook: That's such a powerful reframe. I think you say, fear becomes an invitation instead of a stop sign. I think this is a quote from you–”you must really care about this

to feel this afraid”. So fear becomes a cue. “This really matters to me”. Okay, so how is fear different from this inner critic I believe you've named in your life John?

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Mary: Dear John. Dear John.

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Alison Cook: Tell us a little bit about that.

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Mary: Okay, so one of the things for your listeners to know that's really cool is fear is a boring liar, and it wears the same sorts of faces and names for each of us. It attacks us with the same boring, busted scripts. Each chapter then tackles a different face of fear. So we have self-sabotage, second guessing, not-enough imposter syndrome, overthinking, perfectionism, people-pleasing, procrastination, failure, criticism, distractions, and even success.

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One of the things that I learned in my previous career being a photographer and a photography educator where I would build courses for people, we learned very quickly, I have a very natural teacher's heart. I speak fluent movie quotes, so this stuff started coming outta my mouth organically. 

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But we started to notice how people would really latch onto it and they would pick up on it, and it would hit them in a way that straight technical jargon never would. And so we are wired to learn by story. We are wired to learn by metaphor. We think about the greatest teacher that ever walked the planet, who taught by story and metaphor. 

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And if the first story or metaphor didn't totally make the people understand, he wouldn't be like, okay, here's what I was doing there. Let me explain it. He would be like, here's another metaphor. And so for each of these different chapters, the different faces of fear, I have used all of the powers of Mary. 

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My friends have joked, because I'm bringing my IQ and my EQ, my movie quotes and my deep thinking. The tug on your heartstrings, we're gonna cry for a while, but then we're gonna laugh in a really sharp, edgy kind of humor way too. And I'm giving each component a really visceral visual for you to remember. 

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And so when we're in the criticism chapter, we're talking about both criticism from other people, but then we're also gonna talk about that inner critic. This is dear John. And that part begins by talking about Ryan Reynolds giving an interview to Hugh Jackman, where Hugh Jackman said, hey, you've been really public about talking about having anxiety. How does that affect your work?

And Ryan Reynolds said, anxiety has such an ecosystem of awareness. Whew. Anxiety has such an ecosystem of awareness. When I'm making a movie, I am not just the actor saying the lines. I am also the harshest critic sitting in the chairs, sitting in the seats going, nope, I don't like that. I don't buy that. That's not good enough. And he actually uses that ecosystem of awareness to push himself to be better.

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I'm not saying you gotta do that, but I think the ecosystem of awareness is interesting. And I so resonate with that, because I'm so aware of my own worst critic sitting in the audience, that I've given it a name. Dear John. And I say, dear John wears khaki pants or jeans creased from the iron. He wears a shirt with a boring, beige, plaid crisscross of colors, but nothing too bold or bright. 

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None of that Vineyard Vines nonsense for dear John. Only ecru and taupe and eggshell. And he doesn't like anything that has color outside of his boring beige lines. Anyway, it goes on and on from there, basically talking about this character who hates when I walk into the room and have any kind of self-confidence at all, any kind of belief in my own worth, any opinions about the trajectory of my career. 

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True to his name, he wants to get me to break up with my biggest dreams, because a dear John letter is a breakup letter. 

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Alison Cook: So dear John and fear are intimately connected

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Mary: Yeah. I would say dear John is a different face of fear.

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Alison Cook: Again, what I love about the book and you're saying it so well for the listener. I laughed, I cried. There's wisdom and then the way you write, in the way you're sharing it with us now, you make all these great connections that we see the humor in ourselves a little bit too. It's such a fun book to read in that way. 

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There's so much life in it and so much of you in it and it's very different from many books that you might pick up, in the sense that it's not a memoir by any stretch, but it is personal and it is an exercise in creativity. It's fun to read. It's a real delight.

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Mary: Because I get pictures in my mind, and that's what a story does. I get a picture of the inner critic and fear can show up in that inner critic who has got a different tactic for keeping you down.

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Alison Cook: It is rooted in “don't get too big”. And again, it exposes it, it pulls back the veil a little bit to go, oh, I see you there. I see what's going on there.

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Mary: Yeah, so something a friend of mine said who's gotten to read the book early, she was like, Mary, this is like a 74,000 word Taylor Swift lyric. And I was like, I'll take that. What a huge compliment. Yeah, it's that metaphor and imagery. If you love plays on words, you're gonna love this book.

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Alison Cook: You're a wordsmith. Yeah. You're a poet. Even the way you speak, I hear the rhythm of it. And again, to your point, I could imagine fear has, throughout your life said, oh, don't do that, trying to keep the lid on what is really a superpower.

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Mary: Oh, a hundred percent. I love that you said that because, okay, here's a really fun one. This is gonna make people understand what I mean about we're bringing all the parts of Mary to this book, more so than even my previous two books. I gave myself permission to be a hundred percent Mary in this book.

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In chapter two, which is “Fear’s a broken script”, it kicks off by me talking about when I was a kid. I knew I wanted to write a book since I was five years old, and I was this decidedly different sort of kid. To give you an idea of how different I was, most kids were thinking about which Care Bear they wanted to own.

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Come Christmas morning, I was thinking about which Care Bear I would turn into if I was ever somehow sucked into the television through the giant NASA size satellite dish in our overgrown yard, outside our single wide trailer, a 1980 status symbol if ever there was one.

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Everybody wanted to be Cheer Bear, the pink, bubbly one with the rainbow on her belly. But I was doomed to be boring, brown, Tender Heart because Tender Heart was the leader. The leader shows up wearing their heart on the outside, where they run the risk of getting hurt, and they have this ability to look ordinary on the outside, to shine a spotlight on others.

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And then full circle moment in the Fear chapter, I talk about how Dear John was like hissing on my shoulder, being like, are you serious? Are you really gonna talk about Care Bears in a very serious thought-leader book? Who is ever gonna take you seriously that way? And having to be like actually, for my people, the people I was created to serve, that's gonna actually make them trust me more. 

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That's gonna make them love me more. Maybe they also grew up in the eighties and also wondered which Care Bear they would be. But they're gonna know that I have been thinking about what it means to be a leader since I was five years old, and I don't take this lightly.

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Alison Cook: Ooh, that's powerful. I'm sitting here thinking, wow, I didn't realize. That's a pretty deep metaphor among the Care Bear creators of the Tender Heart leader. There's so much to that. Again, to your point about story, the best stories, the best children's stories, even toys, light up our imaginations.

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Mary: Right. Yeah. Valentine Rabbit–you're only ugly to those who don't understand. Yeah.

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Alison Cook: I've thought about the Grinch a lot. That metaphor is really powerful. So Mary, this leads a little bit to my role in the book. You're talking about your adult self and how you, again, even in that moment, pushed back with Dear John, like, it is a thought leader book. 

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You're also incredibly generous with not only your almost photographic memory for movie lines and scripts and all that, which is so fun because we grew up in a similar era, but also your generosity to give credit to folks you've got ideas from. To the point of the thing about fear, there is no new idea under the sun, but there's no one else but you who can give voice to certain ideas in new ways. 

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And so that's the beauty of creativity. The flip side of “somebody's already done this”, is “Mary has never done this. Mary will do it completely differently”. To the point of you learning to push back on some of those narratives, no one's gonna like this, there's a line in this book where you say you got this from me, from The Best of You. 

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There's a grownup in the room who can be trusted, and that grownup is you. Why was that so pivotal for you?

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Mary: Woo. Okay. I've been thinking about this all morning, and I knew this part was coming and I was like, oh boy, Mary. Hold it together. Okay. I'm gonna set the scene for everybody listening. It needs a little tiny bit of a backstory. We were set to record to talk about The Best of You. It was our first time recording together. You've now been on my show a couple times. 

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I've been on yours a couple times. We had met recently at a retreat in Arizona, where ironically I'd also cried there the whole time for about three days. Anyway, that's irrelevant, but we need to honor that for a second. And for everybody listening, I first have to admit to you my very guilty pleasure. 

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Most people have the Kardashians, or Bachelor in Paradise, or whatever. I follow really cheesy success accounts on Instagram. The ones with a lion and a Lamborghini that say, “roar until you get everything you came for”. Mostly because I like to mock them in my head, but one day there was one that went by. 

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It was a quick scroll by and I wish I could have found it again to give true credit to whoever posted it, but I've never been able to find it again. And it was a picture of a shot glass and it said, if you think you have the capacity the size of a shot glass, then anytime you get a little bit more than that, you will subconsciously shrink yourself until you, and then I added this part, fit yourself back into the tiny containers you believe you belong in.

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I brought that up in our episode and I said, Alison, how do we stop doing this when most of the time we're doing it subconsciously? We don't even realize we're doing it. And we pulled up this long form quote from The Best of You that was talking about if you didn't have a lot of stability in your childhood, if there was a lot of chaos, that you've never been taught safety, you will live in an internal place of chaos and survival mode. 

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And the way that we break this is by setting small but important commitments to ourselves. They can't be too huge. It's gotta be small steps, but they also have to actually matter to you and then you actually keep them. Then you looked me in the eye through the screen, like we're doing, and you said, as you do that you are showing yourself there's a grownup in the room who can be trusted. That grownup is you. 

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And I burst into tears on the spot. Because I think there are so many of us who had hard stories. Listen, if you are listening right now and you feel like your whole life has been this series, this running metaphor through all of Underestimated about pushing a boulder up the mountain, almost being at your breakthrough moment.

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We can taste the rarefied air and at the last minute, when we realize all the eyes on us looking from home, like Wiley Coyote about to get his comeuppance, for a second we defy gravity and then the bottom drops out. We lose our grip, we lose our weight, and the boulder rolls all the way back down the mountain and we keep starting over.

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Meanwhile, other people can implement, execute and achieve like it's no big deal. Elle Woods–what, like it's hard? And if you have felt that your whole life, it's because maybe there's something in your story that taught you it's not safe to trust anybody, including yourself. 

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And so for you to actually give a pathway forward of small but important commitments where day by day, you are reestablishing a sense of safety and showing yourself there is a grownup who can be trusted with this more to steward this. It's you. It kicked off the whole idea for the book. 

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Now every chapter ends with a small shift based around that idea. Everybody thinks you quit playing small by taking a big leap, and the net will appear, but paradoxically, some of the most important work we'll do is small shifts.

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Alison Cook: It means a lot to me, first of all, that you so generously honored my work in that and my role in that, because I had no idea. I knew in the moment you really took that in–

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Mary: –from the sobbing.

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Alison Cook: Yeah. I knew that, but to see then, how you went on and presumably began to retrain that trust of yourself in that way, with those small micro-steps–it's so true. You and I both know that's part of the issue with self-sabotage. Again, back to your point about nuance, these big messages of “Do it scared”, I love that metaphor, that one really spoke to me in the book, but what if you're someone who's done it scared and then the boulder goes all the way back to the bottom time and time again? 

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That can feel like I'm the problem, as opposed to, what do I need to do to train myself to be more prepared to really keep that boulder going at a steady pace? There is actually a different way to do it and I might have to do some retraining along the way.

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You did that. And then the fruit of it in this book, you see the more whole picture of who you are, that you know, I'm not gonna play small here. I'm talking to you about it and I'm also showing you all of who I am.

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Mary: Yes. Yeah. I love that. It informs this whole book, because each chapter is a deep dive on why we are the way we are. Why do we actually procrastinate? What's happening on a scientific level when we overthink and we wanna switch from the hard problem to the easier win? That's actually a science thing.

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Your brain is self-preserving. There's glutamate building up in your prefrontal cortex, and it's reaching potentially toxic levels that are affecting brain functioning. So as a survival technique, you will switch into a more immediate gratification win. You handed me this baton and it set off a million different ideas and a million different ways of what it actually looks like to trust yourself in the face of each of these different versions of fear. 

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Because fear's like a chameleon, like that shapeshifter–it can throw its voice. I should add, the other gift it has is changing its face. But when you think about that, that kinda reminds me of a horror movie. This enemy that's taking on all these different terrifying faces. It's gonna haunt you in your dreams.

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So then it was like, okay, all right, fear, I see you now. What if I actually go toe to toe with you, chapter by chapter, for every face you try to put on?

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Alison Cook: As you began to internalize that idea of “I am the adult in the room”, what are some of the early steps that you took to retrain the way that you interacted with yourself?

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Mary: I'm gonna be honest with you, the first step that it took for me, and the first step it's gonna take for a lot of people, is grief. You're gonna have to grieve the 20 or 25 years, or however long you feel like you've been stuck in this place of perfectionism or procrastination or pushing the boulder up the hill. However long you've been living like that. 

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I actually have these scenic overlooks in the book as places where we pause and rest and we pay honor to how far we've come. We also prepare for how far we still have to go. And one of them is that grief is a story not yet lived, and it talks about mourning how much further along we would be by now if we hadn't had to stop to do all this healing first. 

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And even in the end of the first section, in chapter one, it's talking about how we forget that we don't all start at the same starting line. For some of us, we've believed the lie our entire lives that more would one day be our downfall. We have these limiting beliefs tied up like heavy weights around our ankles, and we wonder why we keep getting tripped up. 

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The work involves healing decades-old traumas and generational beliefs about what happens to a person when they finally get more. So there's a grief to it. You gotta spend some time mourning how long it's taken to even get to this point, to start to trust yourself.

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Alison Cook: Oh, that's good, Mary. That's a good word because it's honest. There is a reckoning with reality that's both liberating and comes with grief, and to let it have a seat at the table versus trying to work around it.

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Mary: Yeah. Because in chapter three, the star of the show is self-sabotage, a shot glass. And it's not about drinking, it's about the tiny containers we put ourselves in. We like to sip ourselves, –a little light self-deprecation among friends never hurt anybody. We prefer it in tiny doses, where nobody starts to take notice. 

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Chapter four is second guessing. Self-sabotage is a shot glass. Second guessing is a missing handbook, and it's for all of us who feel like we’re not given that handbook for life that everybody else seems to have gotten when they were eight years old. Chad, pass the mashed potatoes and oh, by the way, make sure you understand compound interest. 

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And we therefore spend our whole lives feeling like we don't have all the information. We don't know all the things other people somehow inherently need to know. So somebody else should always be the one trusted to go do the thing. Somebody else will always show up better. And I go into great detail describing the missing handbook. 

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It's from the 1970s, the color of an old school national park pamphlet, and page 47 is the missing secret formula for how to get the shiny, perfect Pantene hair. I've never been able to get this wild thing untamed. I go on to say, for those of us with the missing handbook, we feel like we're walking around the world without all the pertinent parts.

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Edward Scissorhands drops down in the middle of some pastel suburban hell, scars now on full visible display in the midday sun, bumping up against all these pastel, pretty smiling ladies with their powers of blending in where we don't know the rules. So we're always breaking the rules and we are somehow the ones who die by a thousand cuts.

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Now, for somebody who feels like, why am I always second guessing myself? Why do I always feel like there's somebody who's gonna show up better? They now have this imagery of Edward Scissorhands. So the next time they're doing that to themselves, they can go, Edward Scissorhands alert. We've been here before.

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That's the biggest work this book does, is giving incredible visuals that you can recall, and you capture fear right in the middle, mid-sentence, and say, I know what you're doing. It diffuses all the power out of the room. 

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Alison Cook: I'm not alone. I cried at that part, because I'd forgotten that movie. When you described that experience, you're like, I can't help the fact that I have scissors on my hands where everybody else has nice red fingernail polish. It makes sense that when you're inhabiting that and you've felt that for so long, this idea of, oh wait a minute. There's an adult inside of me that can gently help me learn how to put the scissors down. 

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It's such a beautiful part of you. And also, let's figure out not how to camouflage, but I wanna help you actually show up vibrantly as yourself. It doesn't have to come from outside of me. There's one other kind of theme in the book. There's a lot to it. Again, it's the many faces of fear. You've said 'em, perfectionism, people pleasing, but how there really is at the root of it, this fear. 

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There's a theme that I really wanted to ask you about before we close down, and that is, you say, proving other people wrong is a powder keg. There's a fine line between finding your own agency, empowering yourself to become who you really are, and trying to prove other people wrong.

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Talk to me a little bit about that. I think there's a lot to that and I think it's really important, especially in our culture today.

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Mary: Yeah. Okay. So really quickly, going back to what we were talking about earlier with the grownup in the room who can be trusted. That grownup is you. And we had mentioned that chapter on criticism. “Criticism is an inside job” is chapter 12. And you had mentioned Internal Family Systems, IFS, and in digging into that, I start to introduce internal family systems a bit.

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I'm sharing a few things from Dr. Martha Sweezy. She gives a script that we reference but don't directly quote, where she tells you how to walk through introducing grownup you to the inner protective part of your inner critic. And you ask that inner critic, how old do you think I am right now?

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And it's I don't know, five, seven, 10, somewhere in there. It's gonna be shocked to find out you're actually a grown woman. And she says, as you begin to introduce that inner protective part to your grownup self, you can ask it to make some room for that version of you, and you will feel yourself become more expansive, calm, relaxed, grown up.

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As those other parts make some room, this is the true version of you that emerges essentially. And so the way I lay it out is, you feel expansive, calm, grown up, as those other parts make some room. I love to reward our people who have listened long into the episode, because this is such a fun, my head exploded moment, that I wanted to make sure you knew. 

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I was staring at it and I was like, oh my gosh. There it is. There is a grownup in the room. That's right. Who can be trusted? That grownup is you. I'd always thought it was like the physical rooms we were walking in, but it's this room up here. And my head was like, what am I seeing? Like, you're in chapter three all the way in chapter 12. You're coming back around.

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Alison Cook: Yes, there's a grownup in the room. Even here. Yeah. I love that.

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Mary: Okay. Powder cakes. This is in the last chapter and it's really getting into, what is this fear of success actually about? And that chapter kicks off with “the underdog is the role of a lifetime”. What I mean by that is, if we are not careful, we could spend our whole lives playing that part, and proving other people wrong is actually a really terrible form of jet fuel. 

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It's explosive. You'll see some really big surges ahead, but it will leave you as this hollowed out, burned out shell of yourself in the process. It is not a renewable fuel source, and I started talking about this sugar factory that actually exploded in Georgia. I think it was in 2007, 2008, and it killed a bunch of people, burned a bunch of people. 

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It's a really horrible accident. Afterwards, the CEO of the company said that it was caused because when they were processing the sugar, all of this sugar dust settled in the silos in the basement. They weren't doing the housekeeping to clean up that mess. And the sugar dust acted like gunpowder. 

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It was a sugar dust turned powder keg. I won't read it word for word outta my brain, but there are excerpts from both Dirt and Slow Growth where I'm talking about achievement being like the Pez dispenser. Keep the candy coming, God doling out hit after hit. Will I ever feel like I matter? 

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In Slow Growth, some days I think I might disintegrate altogether, these million atomized molecules floating like sugar dust. And if we're not doing the housekeeping to clean up that mess of more sugar, more achievements, more gold stars, maybe that'll make me matter, maybe that'll make them choose me, maybe then I will belong, that sugar dust can turn into a powder keg and we are the ones who get burned.

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Alison Cook: It's so good. You see it where that becomes an identity for years. You get that visibility through energy through proving other people wrong. That's so interesting and honest. Wow.

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Mary: Yeah. Oh yeah. At the end is perfectionism, “hiding with better PR”. That's chapter 10. I talk about how I started using perfection as a weapon when my mom left when I was nine. I wanted to make her sad. She missed how good my life turned out. Oof. Now we're really getting real.

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Alison Cook: That's a gut punch. Because it’s also so understandable at nine. That makes sense. But again, and this is where these young parts of us that have been so hurt, that adapted with these strategies, again, as we get older, it's like oh, but there's an adult in the room. That adult in the room can help you reframe that strategy. Again, without shame, but there’s that re-parenting piece that is so important.

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Mary: Yeah. In Dirt, I talk about the rest of that excerpt. It reminds me of a daisy growing wild in a scorched earth wasteland. Sure, you can grow beautiful things out of the ground of revenge, but how long can it really survive that way? That was the moment when I had to decide–if I'm gonna build a beautiful life, let me not do it out of revenge,

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Alison Cook: Mary Marantz, you are a wise poet. You really are. There's a such a lyrical way you paint these pictures for us. And I'm so grateful. I'm really grateful for the way you use your talents, for the way you're stepping into even more of your voice. It's gonna help a lot of people. Tell my listeners where to find your work, where to find the new book.

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Mary: First of all, I'm gonna say thank you for saying all that. And I know at this point in book launching, that was a lifeline to me. I feel like I am powered up. We always joke that one of our golden retrievers is a super extrovert. Addie, when he meets people on the seawall outside our house, you can literally watch him like Mario Brothers get a  power up. 

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So I feel like I powered up over here. Yes. Okay. A couple places I wanna tell your people about.

One is that I started talking about these characters in Slow Growth, but they carry over into Underestimated. And they are all these different ways we can perform to try to prove other people wrong or achieve for our worth. Or they actually end up turning into us playing small. 

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There's the performer, which is what I am, who's always on her toes to show both herself and other people how far she's come. The tightrope walker could care less who's clapping, but they need higher and higher death-defying feats in order to feel the same amount of good. The masquerader hides in plain sight and shoves other people into the spotlight. 

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The contortionist is our classic people pleaser, which is chapter nine. They contort because it's easier than to be criticized. The illusionist in the distance, that's chapter 10, she waits for herself and all the conditions to begin, to be perfect before she thinks she can even start. 

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If you go to achieverquiz.com, it takes about two minutes to take the quiz, 10 minutes if you really overthink it. The questions are super fun. And in true Mary form, the results go super deep. We talk about each type, why you are the way you are, why you play small, why you get stuck, and how we move forward. So that's achieverquiz.com or marymarantz.com/quiz. 

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Then if you go to namethefear.com or marymarantz.com/underestimated, we have the whole first chapter free for you up right now. You can grab it and start reading today. If you wanna pre-order, because pre-orders are so huge for authors, especially newer authors or ones who are still trying to get the stores to pick up the book, the first three chapters are available for you, and also the audio book.

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So it's getting two books for the price of one, and I read it. So if you've enjoyed hearing me wax poetic for the last hour, you will love the audio book with all of my movie quotes and quirky Care Bear stories all the way through. So that's namethefear.com or marymarantz.com/underestimated. I’m @MaryMarantz on Instagram–come tell me what achiever type you get, or if you liked the episode. 

Alison Cook: I love it. It is truly a delightful book about a hard topic. I was like, gosh, for all these things that I really struggle with, I'm having a lot of fun reading through this, which is such an art. I couldn't sing your praises enough and the book’s praises enough. You're the real deal and I'm so grateful for your time to share your wisdom with us.

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Mary: Thank you for your time and sharing me with your audience. I know that's a sacred space to invite someone in. So it means the world. As a podcaster myself, I know what goes into that and it means the world. Everybody go listen to Alison on my show too!

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Alison Cook: Yeah, we'll link to it. Thank you, Mary.

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Mary: Thank you. 

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Why do I feel guilty for protecting my time or energy?

‍

Is this a boundary—or am I just avoiding someone?

‍

Boundaries stir up a lot of emotions. But what if they’re not about building walls, avoiding people, or being “selfish”?

‍

In this episode, I share a deeply personal and surprising take on what boundaries truly are—and why they matter more than you think.

‍

You'll hear:

*Why healthy boundaries begin not with rejection, but with rhythm

*The two most common ways we misuse boundaries

*A powerful metaphor that changed how I think about relationships

*How codependency, enmeshment, and burnout signal boundary issues

*Real-life scripts and strategies to set boundaries with compassion and clarity

‍

Resources:

• Episode 153: Embodied Healing, Spiritual Trauma, and the Journey Home to Your Body with Dr. Hillary McBride
• ‍The Best of You by Dr. Alison Cook
• ‍I Shouldn’t Feel This Way by Dr. Alison Cook

‍

If you liked this, you’ll love:

• Episode 124: Boundaries & Numbing—How to Set Healthy Limits and Stop Avoiding Your Feelings
• ‍Episode 24: Boundaries, the Spectrum of Toxicity, and a Note About Evil
• ‍Episode 7: Why Are Boundaries So Hard to Set?

‍

‍Thanks to our sponsors:

• Turn back time on the appearance of your skin with Purity Woods’s Age-Defying Dream Cream. Go to puritywoods.com/BESTOFYOU or enter code BESTOFYOU at checkout for an additional 10% off your first order.
• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.
• Visit cozyearth.com and unlock an exclusive for 40% off best-selling sheets, towels, pajamas, and more with code BESTOFYOU.
• Go to Quince.com/bestofyou for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
• Visit GoGeviti.com to learn more about how you can start optimizing your health without leaving home today and use code BESTOFYOU.
• Contact Restoring the Soul today and learn how their Intensive Counseling Process can jump start your journey to the place you want to be. As a special gift for The Best of You podcast listeners, download their pdf called "5 Ways Unresolved Trauma May Be Derailing Your Relationship."
• I want all my listeners to enjoy a deep, restful night’s sleep with a new mattress from Birch. Go to birchliving.com/bestofyou for 20% off sitewide!

Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author. While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

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Transcript:

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Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. Today we're talking about boundaries, a topic that can stir up a lot of mixed feelings for many of us. On one hand, boundaries can feel empowering, like a reclaiming of your voice, your time, your wellbeing.

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On the other hand, if you're on the receiving end of someone else's boundaries, it can feel confusing or even like rejection. For some of us, boundaries can feel at odds with being a loving, kind, or generous person.

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I've struggled with boundaries most of my adult life. I've struggled with being too rigid, using boundaries like a fortress to keep people out. Sometimes that has looked like ending a relationship too quickly instead of having an honest conversation, and telling myself I'm being clear, when I was actually afraid of the emotional discomfort or even feeling awkward.

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It has looked like saying no across the board as a default, not because I didn't care, but because I didn't trust myself to give without losing myself. It has looked like overscheduling or over-structuring my life to the point that there was no room left for spontaneity, presence, or unexpected moments of connection. 

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I've also struggled with being far too permeable, rationalizing and overgiving out of guilt or a sense of over-responsibility. For me, that has looked like attuning so much to someone else's perceived needs that I ended up over-enabling the other person and jeopardizing other healthier relationships. 

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It has looked like feeling so desperate not to hurt someone else that I avoid the hard, necessary conversations. Conversations that if I'd been brave enough to have them earlier, might have actually saved certain relationships. It has looked like taking on more than I can handle at work, convincing myself it's being servant-hearted, when in reality I'm neglecting my own health and priorities.

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It's taken me a long time to figure out a healthier rhythm when it comes to boundaries–a way to enter into the beautiful mess that is all of our relationships, with wisdom, discernment, and healthy boundaries.

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As we discussed in last week's episode on codependency, healthier boundaries have come as I've learned to trust my own inner voice, to honor my own needs, my own intuitive instincts, my own desires, even as I've learned to stay present to the inherent complexities of relating with other complicated humans.

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What I've learned is that tending to our boundary lines is an ongoing practice. It's not a one-time decision. It's not a hard and fast set of rules. It's a rhythm of staying attuned to yourself, to your circumstances, and to the gentle leading of God's Spirit.

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I'm guessing that most of you also feel this tension of vacillating between wanting to flee hard, complicated conversations or situations in your relationships, versus being too porous, too available to bend, too yielding to the needs of other people.

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That's exactly why I wanna have this conversation with you today. Here's the thing. Boundaries are one of the most misunderstood tools of emotional and spiritual health. They're not about building walls to keep people out, they're not weapons to get other people to change, and they're not excuses to avoid conflict, hard conversations, or the beautiful mess of real relationships.

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Here's a metaphor that I have found to be really helpful in my own life. Recently, I spent the morning walking through greenhouses and rows of plants and flowers, each one different, each one needing something unique from the gardener. 

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Sunflowers turn their faces toward you and grow tall with the light. Roses are beautiful, but come with thorns. You learn to enjoy them gently, maybe even from a distance. Yellow daisies bloom brightly for a season and then they fade. Others, like lavender or sage, are grounding and enduring, showing up year after year, steady and healing.

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Some, like morning glories, open briefly and unexpectedly, offering surprise beauty that you hold lightly for a season. Then there are the ones that grow wild–wisteria climbing into spaces it doesn't really belong in, or ivy that spreads so fast it begins to choke out other plants. These require pruning care or a strong trellis to guide them. 

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Our relationships are like a garden–beautiful, messy, each one needing different things from us.

Boundaries are the tools–the gardener's glove, the pruning shears, the watering can, even the protective fence. Boundaries are essential tools for tending to the garden of your relationships. 

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They're nuanced and nimble, not hard and fast, and they're never there to punish the plant or the relationship, but to help each one thrive in the right place, in the right season, with the right care. Boundaries aren't about control. They're about cultivating what's good, letting go of what no longer blooms, and protecting the beauty of what's growing.

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Your job isn't to control every plant or every person in your garden of relationships. It's to tend your garden with wisdom, discernment, and a gentle touch, having confidence that you have what it takes to nurture a garden that is alive, vital, healthy, and growing.

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Here's the thing. Back in the day, when my boundaries were too rigid, I had a beautiful plot of soil with no weeds and no flowers, and that's not exactly the kind of vibrant garden I wish to cultivate in my life, nor is it the kind of garden I think God means for us to have.

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Having healthy boundaries does mean wading into the messiness of relationships. If we left every relationship when things got messy, we wouldn't have any relationships left. On the other hand, if we don't have the tools to tend to our relationships with confidence and with strength, we'll let that garden be completely overgrown and chaotic, and we'll feel overwhelmed by what's in front of us. 

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Boundaries aren't about perfection. They're about cultivating a healthy sense of order. Your garden will look different from mine, and that's okay, but what matters is that we find a life-giving sense of order that honors our need for human relationships and our own personal capacities.

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So today I wanna take you on a journey. First, I'll give you a high level view of what I think is the original design behind boundaries, all the way back at the beginning, what we see in the creation story.

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Then we're gonna end with some practical stories from real life situations as well as scripts and tips that you can start using as you cultivate your own garden of relationships. So let's start at the beginning with a high-level view.

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In the creation story, God brings beauty out of chaos, not through domination, but through separation, through healthy differentiation. Light from darkness, land from sea, day from night. Each act of separation wasn't about exclusion. It wasn't about hierarchy. It wasn't about division in the way we often think of it today.

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It was about making room. In the beginning, God didn't build walls, God created spaciousness. These early distinctions between day and night, land and water, work and rest, weren't punishments. They were gifts. They were the foundational rhythms of our lives. They gave shape to time, meaning to movement, and form to relationship. They made life possible.

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We work, we rest, we commune with each other, we commune with God. We're together. We're separate. All of this existed in perfect harmony before the fall. This is the essence of boundaries–creating form so that flourishing can happen, and this is what theologians call original goodness. 

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I touched on this back in Episode 153 with Dr. Hillary McBride. Before there was sin, shame, and divisiveness, there was goodness, honor and harmony, not only in our relationships with other people, but in our relationship with God and with the land that we inhabit. That's our original inheritance.

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Boundaries were part of that original harmony. They were there before sin and shame and brokenness entered in. They were never walls to keep people out, but rhythms that made life sustainable. The problem is, somewhere along the way, we've started to see boundaries primarily as defensive tools, as ways to protect ourselves from the harm and chaos of the world around us. 

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Yes, boundaries can be protective. They do help us navigate the pain and confusion of broken relationships, but that's not where they begin. Boundaries begin in goodness, not as a reaction to what's wrong, but as a structure that protects what's right. 

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For those of you who have read my book, The Best of You, I redefine the primary question to ask yourself when it comes to establishing healthy boundaries, not as what you need to say no to, but what you need to say yes to in your life, proactively. What is the goodness, the beauty, the health that you're trying to protect?

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So right here at the front end of this episode, if you're struggling to set boundaries in your life, think about it for a minute. Are you trying to figure out what you're saying no to, and that seems impossible or hard or cruel or inherently rejecting?

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If that feels like your situation, “I can't say no to this person 'cause I don't wanna hurt them”. “I can't say no to this commitment, because I don't want to be ungenerous or unkind”. “I can't say no even to this toxic situation because I also care about this person even though I can't stand some of the ways that they're treating me”. 

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Flip that question on its head and ask yourself, what do I need to say yes to instead? I need more healthy relationships in my life. I need more spaciousness for myself, which means I have less tolerance for some of these other harder, more complicated relationships. Remember, boundaries aren't primarily about saying no to bad things. 

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They're about saying yes to the things that matter most. Start there. If you're struggling with your boundaries, sometimes I call this creating a Yes list. Again, if you think back to that garden metaphor, think about the flowers that draw you in and help you come alive and help bring joy into your life and a sense of goodness, a sense of peace, a sense of rest, and start there.

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By prioritizing those relationships in your schedule, in your calendar, in your day-to-day life, the rest will begin to take care of itself. There are two specific kinds of ordering that come with boundary setting that I wanna touch on in this episode today. The first is ordering your life and picking between good things. 

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It’s just the everyday reality that we have to say yes to a certain number of things. We're finite, we're limited. We can't say yes to everything, which means at times we will be saying no or reducing our capacity in things that we really love, within relationships that we really value or respect or care about, but we don't have the capacity for in the same way.

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Lemme give you an example from my own life. In the last 15 years, I've undergone so many changes. I went from being single to being married. I went from not having children to stepping into really significant co-parenting duties as a step-parent.

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In the meantime, my work life has grown. I've published a couple of books. I've grown a really strong online presence where a lot of people, including those of you listening, look to me for support and for guidance.

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I shifted into three new roles that significantly altered my time and energy and capacity very quickly, and that forced me to make some changes in my life out of sheer need. This was hard.

I've also moved. I've taken up roots in a new geographic location. These were significant changes that impacted my capacity to invest in long distance relationships that are really meaningful to me. 

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I've had to figure out different rhythms to honor those relationships, but in new ways. I've had to say no to some work opportunities, including those that require a lot of travel. These are constant negotiations in our global world that many of us are having to make about our work, and our relationships.

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And all of these decisions require communication. It's communicating to those people, you matter to me and my capacity to show up in this relationship has to change. Or it means communicating to a boss, I can't travel to that event because I have these other commitments that are important to me. 

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Are there other ways that I can show up digitally to make my presence known in these spaces? This kind of boundary setting isn't about choosing between good and bad. It's about knowing my own values and prioritizing accordingly.

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Boundaries help us survive and flourish, and it takes some work on the front end. If you're someone who's struggling in this category of boundary setting, the most important thing you can do is make that priority list. It's not a yes list of all those things you want to say yes to, it's prioritizing what are the ones that matter most.

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They all matter to me, but what matters most? Then the other thing I found really helpful when it comes to prioritizing in very full seasons is to think seasonally. What needs to be in my daily rhythms? What can be in my weekly rhythms? What can be in my monthly rhythms? And what is in my quarterly or annual rhythms?

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Don't underestimate the value of an annual rhythm or a quarterly rhythm. These are really valid and valuable ways of honoring different relationships and different work commitments. For example, if you have a friend or a group of friends that don't live near you, prioritizing annual or even every other year get-togethers to see each other is placing significant value on those relationships.

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It's far better than letting them go by the wayside. Same with quarterly rhythms. Quarterly check-ins via phone are really valuable. That's a significant investment in a relationship that you can no longer figure out how to work into your day-to-day or your weekly rhythms.

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Expanding your understanding of rhythms to thinking seasonally can be a really helpful way to add some of your boundary lines. Another example for me when it comes to traveling for speaking is, instead of feeling like I'm always saying no, I say yes to one or two speaking events a year. That's what I have capacity for. 

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By naming that clearly, I'm able to choose events and opportunities that have the most value for me personally. I know what I'm saying yes to, which can help relieve the stress of having to say no to otherwise really good things.

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Secondly, I wanna talk about boundaries in the context of relational struggles or even relational toxicity. Again, I always say this, but it bears repeating. I don't believe in toxic people. I believe in the image of God in all people, but I do believe in toxic patterns of behavior.

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When I'm talking about boundaries, I'm not labeling other people as good or bad, or toxic or not toxic. I'm looking at patterns of behaviors, and I'm asking myself this key question: what needs to shift in this relationship in order for me to live honestly with integrity and with respect for the image of God in this other person?

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That's a loaded question, so I'm gonna unpack it for a second. What needs to shift in order for me to live honestly, so that I'm not lying to myself or to someone else? With integrity, so that I'm staying true to myself and to my own values? And simultaneously, with respect for the image of God in this other person? 

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So notice I didn't say with respect for how this other person is behaving, because I'm respecting their inherent humanity while also staying true to my own convictions, my own integrity, my own values. So if someone is demonstrating extremely toxic behaviors where it's hard to see the image of God in them, and I know many of you have people like this in your life, what needs to shift?

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What might need to shift is, I cannot be in communication with this person anymore because their behaviors and their strategies and their way of showing up in the world has gotten so toxic that I cannot put myself in their presence. And that is the best thing I can do to honor myself and honor the image of God in them, because I am not gonna honor the way they're showing up in the world.

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There's no way that I can be in a relationship with them and still honor myself and the image of God in them, because there's no access to that image of God. Now, these are extreme cases, but it does happen. Other relationships get more complicated. Boundaries often come into focus when something doesn't feel quite right.

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I wanna talk through three common situations where this happens. The first is enmeshment. When our own identity is too tied up in someone else's needs or opinions, this gets back to codependency, which we talked about in last week's episode. 

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Number two are toxic patterns. When the relationship involves manipulation, control, guilt-tripping, or repeated harm, and again, in this case, I'm not talking about those people that you have to remove yourself from entirely. I'm talking about people that have some good qualities, but also demonstrate some of these other qualities that are harmful.

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Number three, a chronic imbalance, when we are always the one giving, always the one fixing, or always the one carrying the emotional load. 

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Let's talk about enmeshment. When you've lost your voice in a relationship, boundaries can help you reclaim it. Not to control the other person, but to become more honest with yourself.

Let's say at work, you've been overworking to appease other people, maybe your boss, maybe your colleagues.

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You're afraid to disappoint or fall short. Start with recognizing what you need. I need to reduce the things to which I'm committed, and it's not about going to other people. It's first about identifying in yourself, this is what I'm doing. I need to figure out a better way to communicate.

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Initially, the boundary isn't about going to other people. It's first becoming clear inside yourself, I'm taking on too much. I am the problem. In this case, you might practice some of the following scripts, simply saying, oh, that doesn't work for me right now. Here's what's already on my plate. I can't take that on, but I'd be glad to help you find someone else. 

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Or a simple statement of, I'm no longer going to answer work emails after 6:00 PM. The first step of establishing a healthier rhythm starts with you speaking up. Maybe it's your marriage, where you feel like you've lost your voice. Instead of trying to change the other person, start with what you need to change in yourself. 

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For example, you might say something like, I've decided to start counseling even if you're not ready to join me. You're taking initiative to do the thing that you know you need to do. Maybe you start scheduling something each week that's life-giving for you, instead of trying to get your spouse to do something that they've shown no interest in. Simply tell them, I've decided to start doing something each week that's replenishing for me. 

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Another helpful script when you're learning how to find your voice in an intimate relationship is to simply name what's happening. “I'm still figuring out what I want. I need some time and space to think”. Ask for the spaciousness you need to sort through your own voice.

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Maybe it's a friendship where you need to name a pattern that you're going to change. “I realize I've been saying yes when I actually need more rest. I'm gonna start being more honest about that”.

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Or, “I so appreciate how much you care, but I really need to make this decision without outside input. I'm really trying to listen to myself” or “I'm gonna have to skip this event. I don't have the capacity right now”. These are tiny steps of introducing more of your voice into these relationships. 

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Remember, setting a boundary in an enmeshed relationship is not an act of rejecting the other person. It's an act of returning to your own self so that you can reinvest in a healthier way. In these cases, the other person may feel disappointed or confused initially, but when you're clear about what you need and your respect for the other person, you're starting to introduce healthy change.

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Let's talk about toxicity. In these situations, it can be more challenging to set a healthy boundary, and you need to be aware of the other person's toxic patterns. When the relationship involves manipulation, control, guilt-tripping, or repeated harm, boundaries are about clarity, protection, and often creating distance. 

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For example, if you've got a friend who is constantly critical, you might need to name to them, “I wanna stay in this relationship, but I cannot take in all this negativity. I'm really working on my own mental health, and for me, I've gotta stay in a more hopeful mindset”.

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You might try playfulness sometimes. That's a great way to introduce change in a relationship. You might say, listen, I hear you. I know things are hard. Now let's each name one good thing that happened to us this week. Sometimes the other person will respond favorably to these bids for a different way of doing things. 

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Sometimes they won't. In those cases, you might simply need to name what's true. I wanna stay in this relationship, but not under these conditions. Or, I need to take a break from these conversations. If someone responds with a guilt-trip, they try to make you feel bad for what you're saying. 

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You can say, I hear that you're disappointed. I get that, and I also need to make this decision.

Or, I love you. I care about you. I don't want you to be disappointed, and I still need to do this differently. You can validate their emotion while simultaneously staying firm in what you need to do. 

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Then lastly, if they really won't let you off the hook, you might need to say, I'm not comfortable continuing in this conversation. I'm going to excuse myself. Simply close the conversation. 

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Finally, when you're dealing with chronic imbalance, when you feel like you're the one who's become the dumping bag, the listening ear, all the time, boundaries in these cases are about naming your own limits, but also learning to ask for shared responsibility. 

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For example, if you're struggling because your spouse maybe isn't helping you out around the house with household tasks or even emotional labor, you can say, listen, I love how much you do for our family, and I need more help around the house. Or, can we talk about how we're dividing up household management? Or, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'd love to make a plan together. 

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In friendships, sometimes friends unwittingly have been leaning on you and maybe don't even realize it, and there are ways you can begin to introduce more of your needs into the relationship. You might say, man, I wanna be there for you, but I'm really emotionally tapped out today. Can we check in tomorrow? 

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Or you might even say, I'd love to support you, but I'm also struggling myself today. I wonder if we could take turns listening to each other. Sometimes you need to be direct. I'm realizing that I've been doing most of the initiating. I wanted to see what that's about. Is there any way that we could create a more mutually honoring rhythm in our friendship?

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Boundaries and relationships aren't about changing the other person. They're about protecting the part of you that's learning to stand in truth. Remember, when we stop over-functioning, we give others a chance to step into their responsibility. We're restoring natural harmony. To continue to take on more than our fair share is actually not good for anyone. 

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You never know how your honesty might help unlock something good inside of someone else. You may not see that in the moment. They might not like it, but at least you'll know you're doing your part. You'll find tons of scripts and tips in both my books, The Best of You and I Shouldn’t Feel This Way, if you want more practical suggestions.

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For now, please hear me say that someone else's disappointment or guilt does not mean you've done something wrong. Sometimes the guilt you feel isn't about the boundary you set. It's about the role you played before you set it. Staying firm to this new boundary is a great opportunity to work through the discomfort that you feel apart from this other person or this role you've taken on.

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You can always honor what they're feeling. You can say, I wish I'd done it differently, or, I hate that you're disappointed, and still move forward in strength. You can acknowledge the mess without stepping back into the same dysfunction. So here are our main takeaways today.

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Boundaries are a part of God's design for harmony. They're not a punishment. They're not a rejection. They're a return to what's healthy, what's real, what's good. A return to healthy rhythms, a return to your God-given worth.

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Boundaries don't have to end relationships. They redefine them and that work, while hard, is holy and good. It's part of what we're made for. Boundaries are how we make space for love to grow without losing ourselves in the process. 

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