episode
162
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Relationships

When Reconnection Feels Impossible—Family Estrangement Expert Dr. Joshua Coleman on Grief, Boundaries, and Hope for Healing

Episode Notes

What happens when repair in your family isn’t possible—at least not yet?

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In this powerful follow-up to last week’s conversation on family pain, psychologist and author Dr. Joshua Coleman sits with me as we explore the heartbreak and complexity of family estrangement—from both sides of the story.

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With deep compassion and personal insight, Dr. Coleman shares what he’s learned through decades of research—and from his own journey as a parent who experienced estrangement from his adult daughter. Whether you're the one who stepped away from a parent or you're a parent who’s been cut off by a child, this conversation offers a rare, balanced look at a path to healing.

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Dr. Coleman shares:

  • Why estrangement is rising—and what’s really behind it
  • When a temporary break might be helpful
  • What to do if your parent won’t take responsibility—or if your child won’t re-engage
  • How humility (not humiliation) opens the door to healing
  • Practical guidance for both adult children and estranged parents

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If you’ve ever wrestled with how to honor a parent who hurt you—or how to rebuild with a child who’s walked away—this episode is full of wisdom, hope, and next steps.

🖥 Learn more about Dr. Coleman’s work ⁠here⁠.

📚 Grab a copy of his book Rules of Estrangement ⁠here⁠.

If you liked this episode, you’ll also love:

  • ⁠⁠Episode 161⁠⁠ — Finding Yourself without losing Yourself: Healing From Dysfunctional Family Patterns with Jerry Wise
  • ⁠Episode 127⁠ — Healing Childhood Wounds: The Enmeshed Family & 5 Toxic Patterns that Affect Your Ability to Thrive in Adult Relationships
  • ⁠Episode 85⁠⁠ — The Goal of a Healthy Family & 6 Roles We Take On In Dysfunction

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode⁠ here.⁠

💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

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Thanks to our Sponsors!

Connect further with Dr. Alison Cook:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/dralisoncook/

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Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

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Transcript:

Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm so glad you're here with me this week.

This is a conversation I've been wanting to bring to the podcast for a long time because I see this tension showing up again and again in the lives of people all around me, in friends, in people I work with, and in many of you who write to me.

Family can be a source of both incredible support and also of deep pain.

In fact, today's episode builds directly on last week's conversation with Jerry Wise, where we talked about self differentiation, which is just the essential process that we all have to go through of learning to stand in our own sense of self, , even as we remain connected to the people we love around us. And that process of self differentiation is something we [00:01:00] all have to navigate, but it's particularly challenging in the context of a family, that doesn't support you, that doesn't do their own work, that doesn't want to go down the path of growth with you.

And so today we're gonna zoom in on one of the most painful and complex phenomena we're seeing in our culture today. Its estrangement within families.

Over the holiday weekend, I was traveling and I downloaded some episodes of the television series, parenthood to watch on the plane, and I love that show. I think there's just a lot of profound moments in the series, but rewatching it, I was struck by how often family relationships include moments of rupture.

Even the best parents who are trying so hard to stay attuned to their children. Overreach, overextend, cross boundaries, make mistakes, misinterpret, misunderstand. There [00:02:00] are so many moments of rupture, even within the best families, and that show does a beautiful job of portraying both the many ways that we hurt each other in families and the power of those moments of repair when they happen.

Just those simple moments of repair. When a parent says to a child, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. I messed up. I didn't see you. Or when a child says to a parent, I'm sorry. I messed up. I made a mistake. Will you forgive me? Those moments of repair are just so powerful in a family because healthy parenting and healthy relationships aren't about never messing up.

They're about the willingness to repair.

But what happens when repair isn't possible? [00:03:00] What if a parent won't or can't for whatever reason own the harm they've caused? And what if you are a parent who's been cut off by an adult child and you've never been given a chance?

I. To repair. Is estrangement the only way forward or is there another path? As I've worked at the intersection of psychology and religion these past few decades, I've noticed that people of faith in particular, often go to two different extremes when thinking about these questions.

We often assume you just simply have to honor the commandment to honor your father and mother, but on the other extreme. Especially in our broader culture today, we're seeing a rising number of adult children cutting ties with their parents altogether for reasons that aren't always clear, or at times that may not warrant such a permanent decision, and

it can start to feel like these are the only two [00:04:00] options to remain enmeshed and hurt. Or to walk away entirely. And that's why I wanted to talk with today's guest, Dr.

Joshua. Coleman Josh is a psychologist, and one of the leading voices in the country on the topic of family estrangement. He brings such a rare depth of insight, not only from his work with families, but also from his own experience as a father who went through a season of a estrangement with his adult daughter.

His books When Parents Hurt and Rules of Estrangement offer a compassionate, deeply nuanced look at how these rifts occur and what it might take when both parties are willing to begin the long work of repair.

Whether you've ever wondered what it really means practically to honor a parent who's hurt you, or you're someone who's been cut off from your child and aching. To understand why and what [00:05:00] you can do about it, or if you're just trying to navigate the complexities of family without swinging to either of these reductive and overly simplified extremes.

This episode is for you. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Joshua Coleman.

INTERVIEW

[00:05:19] Alison Cook: One of the reasons, Josh, that I, I just really wanted to have you on today is you speak with such nuance to this topic of family estrangement. A lot of my audience, by way of introduction, comes from faith backgrounds. They've grown up in churches, many of my listeners belong to churches. So one of the things I wanna kind of flush out with you today on the podcast is what I see as sort of these extremes. 

In my work as I have been working as a clinician in some of this area, in my own degrees in psychology and religion, sometimes in religious communities there can be a sort of honor thy father and mother [00:06:00] almost, right? You, you have to stay loyal to the family system even when the system is hurting you.

[00:06:06] Joshua Coleman: Yep. 

[00:06:09] Alison Cook: And a big part of my work is reframing that. What does it really mean to honor a father and mother, especially when there's been harm? What does that really mean? Right? When we need

[00:06:21] Joshua Coleman: Yeah.

[00:06:22] Alison Cook: to differentiate and disentangle from that. On the other side of that, we're seeing, and I'd love for you to speak to this, in the broader culture, especially in the younger generation, just an incredible number of people kind of divorcing their families, for lack of a better word, for maybe not-necessary reasons. And there's this sort of alienation and isolation and we're going too far to sort of leaving some of these institutions and systems that we do need some tether to. So that's kind of how I came to you.[00:07:00] 

I thought, gosh, who's speaking to this in a way that honors that? Sometimes we do need to address what's hard in families of origin and also we don't wanna kind of throw out the baby with the bath water. So with that long preface, I'd love to hear from you, what are you seeing in the culture at large? How did this topic become of interest to you?

[00:07:18] Joshua Coleman: Yeah. Well, we'll start with how the topic became of interest. You know, I, it was through a personal experience. I was married and divorced in my twenties, and I have a, adult daughter who I'm very. Close to, uh, but there was a period of time in her early twenties where she cut off contact with me for a couple years and large part owing to my becoming remarried, having children in my second marriage and her feeling in many ways, displaced.

And you know, when she wanted to talk to me about it, to kind of complain about what that was like for her, I wasn't really well equipped to listen as empathically and as responsibly as I should have. And so she became more and more distant until she stopped talking to me. And it wasn't until I really.

Realize I needed to [00:08:00] radically change how I was approaching her, uh, that she began to turn back towards me and we were able to, to heal the distance. Um, but at the time there was nothing written to help me and I wasn't therapy with, you know, very successful psychoanalyst who gave me terrible advice as so many therapists do in this space.

Because if you haven't been through it, you kind of just don't know. So I realized that there was a need for a book on the topic. So I wrote my first book on the topic in 2007 when parents hurt Compassionate Strategies when you and your grown child don't get along. And as a result of that, got a wide following of parents here who were estranged in other countries.

And as a result of that, started doing a free Q and a every, other Monday. 'cause I just couldn't handle the volume of emails I was getting. Then I started doing a webinar series, which I. Continue to, to this day, every Tuesday night, four 30 Pacific. and I have a newsletter which is also free 'cause there's just so much information parents need and I don't wanna limit it just to people who can, you know, afford my private therapy rate.

 so on the [00:09:00] basis of that. All of that data. I did a survey of 1600 estranged parents, which I published in several peer reviewed articles and wrote my more recent book, rules of Estrangement, why Adult Children Cut Ties and How to Heal the Conflict. And so now I'm, all I'm doing is seeing estranged parents mostly, um, and adult children who, who are interested in reconciling and, and that kind of thing.

 but to back out to your, your second question. What am I seeing? Yeah, I think that that there's been an enormous cultural shift in the past half century where, you know, honored thy mother and thy father, respect thy elders families forever, has given way much more to this emphasis on personal happiness, personal growth, identity, protecting my mental health, establishment of boundaries.

And so often the generations are talking past each other. You know, older generations are saying, well, what about Ony mother and my father and everything that I did for you and respect your elders And younger generations are saying, no, that ship has, has sailed. It's really like, you know, [00:10:00] you can't have a relationship with me that's in line with my ideals for happiness and mental health.

Not only don't I want it, but I, it's would be ridiculous of me to have it. So a lot of my work is helping parents learn how to speak that language. 'cause so many of them haven't been raised with that, that language. And so many of them say, you know, my kids saying that they were emotionally abused.

I can show them when an emotional, abusive household looks like I grew up in that. What I, what they got was a walk in the park, which, you know, doesn't really advance their cause, but

[00:10:30] Alison Cook: which might be true on one hand and is not helpful toward the ends of reconciliation. So, I want the listener to hear you've got some fantastic resources for parents who have experienced estrangement where their kids, adult children have cut ties. Before we get there, I'd love to hear your take because you have such a nuanced approach.

When do you think estrangement is warranted? When do you think there is a time, whether it's a season, when do you think it is appropriate to, to cut ties?[00:11:00] 

[00:11:00] Joshua Coleman: Well, in the same way that I would tell parents that it is their duty to do due diligence on their children's complaints and, uh, you know, to find the colonel, if not the bush of truth, and to understand why their adult child is turning away from them and what they're trying to establish In doing that, I think adult children also need to do their due diligence with the parents.

It's not enough to go to therapy and have your therapists say, well, your mother's a narcissist, your dad's a narcissist, or they can't be helped, or It's hopeless. You know, you actually have to be willing for your therapist to contact the parent and see if they're willing to work on it or do family therapy or give your parents time to grow and change.

And not to approach them by saying, my therapist thinks you're a narcissist. I learned that you were emotionally abusive. I mean, it's fine to have all of those beliefs. You know, many parents are. Abusive, and it's not like those parents don't, don't exist 'cause they do. But it's not going to really motivate or allow the parent to give you what you want or may need from that parent in order to [00:12:00] be a better parent or even heal the hurt and the harm that they've caused.

It's really hard for any parent to hear the ways that they've failed. Their children. Uh, and defensiveness is a natural, it's an unproductive response, but it's a very natural response to hearing that. So if your goal is a better relationship with your parent, you really do need to spend some time, giving them time to change and to tell them what you don't like and to kind of let them know if they're not getting it.

Look, I just can't. Have a relationship with you. If you can't be more sensitive to me in this regard, whatever it is that they're being so insensitive about, and if, if, over the next few months you're not able to show more empathy or insight around this with me, then, then I need to take a serious break from our relationship Now when I counsel.

People to take a break. I don't really think anybody should take a permanent break. 'cause I think that sometimes parents don't get the message until there's been an estrangement. You know, it's kind of like some parents need to be sort of, you know, smacked upside the head to get, get [00:13:00] with the program, but then once they've actually been through it, they can kind of say, oh, okay, I, I get it.

I'm willing to do whatever. Right. Um, so I think, you know. Adult children should reach back out after, after a year. And, and part of the reason I say that is that, you know, there's so much in the media about abusive parents. There was an article yesterday or Sunday in the New York Times about another person who cut off their abusive mother and they're happy for it.

And there's that book by Jenny McCarty, I think called, I'm Glad My mother's Dead. And, there's so much in the media about. Kind of legitimizing, estrangement and you know, like we're saying there, there are cases for it, but there are so many estrangements that don't occur because of parental abuse.

And there's not enough information out there about how heartbroken these parents are and how heartbroken they are as grandparents. 'cause they're typically cut off from contact with the grandchildren as well.

[00:13:50] Alison Cook: Yeah, it's, it's really polarized. it's as if there's only two options— relationship or no relationship. when I talk about boundaries, I'm a big proponent of let's face reality. Let's name what's real, what can I do. You know, can I send a monthly email?

[00:14:08] Joshua Coleman: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:09] Alison Cook: Maybe that is the only way I can have a relationship, right?

But there's a lot of material in that middle ground between no contact ever and we have to spend every holiday together and talk on the phone every week. I think most people don't fall in either of those two extremes.

[00:14:28] Joshua Coleman: No, I totally, totally agree with you. And I think that because of cell phones, you know, every parent is just within a, you know, a click away from their children in ways that wasn't the case when you and I were growing up. I'm sure I, but quite a bit older than you. but you know, I mean, my parents, when I moved out here to California from Dayton, Ohio, I mean, you know, it took me.

Two weeks to drive out here with friends. And I wasn't like calling them every other day or sending them pic and I couldn't send them pictures. Um, you know, maybe after two weeks I called them, collect and spoke to them for 10 minutes, let 'em know I [00:15:00] arrived safely. But now parents can reach their kids from anywhere in the world within seconds.

And it really crowds the environment for so many adult children and so many kind of feel like they're getting too much so. the word that I see in every single letter from every single strange adult child is you need to respect my boundaries. And you know, part of it is just that parents are allowed and have been more in intrusive.

In some ways it comes from a loving, caring, anxious, guilt-ridden place. But you know, if you're on the other end of it's the adult child, it doesn't necessarily feel that way. It just feels like intrusion.

AD BREAK 1

[00:15:31] Alison Cook: There are lots of boundaries you can set that, like you're saying. I think that's really a good point in this modern era of don't follow me on social media. That is I, and I can enforce that. You don't get a say or you know, I won't do text related, you know, there are lots of these, so, so I just wanna put that out there for a listener.

 and again, there are cases, I have friends, I've had clients who have to go no contact for very good reasons. That does happen, and also there are many [00:16:00] situations. Where we can find a more nuanced approach. So a couple of things you've said that are really important for adult children who have a tough relationship with their parents or recognizing ways they've been hurt.

 I loved how you said this. You said a couple things. Don't just talk to one. Therapist who has only met you and only heard your story maybe in, see if that therapist would be willing to meet with your parents, maybe try family therapy. It might not work, but due diligence, kind of look at it from different angles.

It's a big deal, is what I'm hearing you say. It's a big deal

[00:16:31] Joshua Coleman: It's a really big deal.

[00:16:32] Alison Cook: cut off. and so I hear you saying, you know, give it some weight, give it some discernment, and then I heard you say very clearly do it for. A specific period of time. First, if you feel like, man, this is going nowhere.

They are not hearing me.

[00:16:48] Joshua Coleman: Give it a year. I heard you say even, you know, take a year and just say, I need this time, and then we'll revisit. Because there's some, you know, it's almost like a timeout. No, it is like a timeout. That's [00:17:00] well, well said. And it gives everybody a chance to calm down and it gives parents a chance, hopefully to, to realize that you mean business if you're the adult child doing it. And I think it's really helpful for parents to know that the adult child is gonna reach out within a certain time.

Because so many of the parents I work with, they're like, well, what if I never hear from my child again? You know, what if I never see my grandchildren? And what if I, how will they know that I've changed? I am changing, I'm doing therapy. You know, I, I now see. But how will they ever know that? And so, you know, I think giving the parent another chance is really critically important.

[00:17:31] Alison Cook: Yeah. If you don't mind my asking, how did that happen with your daughter? Was there a set period of time and then you decided to reengage?

[00:17:40] Joshua Coleman: Well, I was sort of trying to reengage, you know, all the way through. I just wasn't doing a very good job of it. So you know, it was, wasn't until I. Talked about the situation with the consultant to my practice. I mean, if your listeners may know that as therapists, we often have a consultant who we'd bring our difficult cases to, you know, every week to get [00:18:00] advice.

 and so one time I just said, look, I wanna talk about a really difficult I. Case, and that's me and I wanna get your advice. Uh, and she was really the first person to say, you need to shut the heck up and stop defending yourself and stop explaining and stop being defensive and stop getting mad, and just empathize and take responsibility 'cause you're not doing that.

So it just feels to her like you're really not hearing her. So, you know, it really wasn't until then that that things began to shift. And I think it's true for many parents, it's not necessarily true. It's not. , you know, for the parents who are out there, it isn't like any one thing I can advise is gonna work for every single parent.

Sometimes the adult child, it just isn't ready for a variety of reasons. Some 

but being willing to take responsibility, make amends, not be defensive, hear it from the child's perspective, those are really the key necessary steps. Even if they're not sufficient, I.

[00:18:50] Alison Cook: So let's talk about this. Part of what we're talking about here is power, right? a parent has power over a child as they grow up, which is why those [00:19:00] wounds can be so damaging because as children, right? There is a power differential. And what happens as we become young adults is, and suddenly like, oh, we have some power here.

Which isn't all bad, right? There's some, I have some power here to say I'm not okay with this. And so then the parent is scrambling to go, okay, now do I still have power? Do I use my old means? How do I change? And so I can imagine this is where parents whose kids are coming to them saying this isn't working. Really can get stuck to your own point of your own story. So let's start there. How would you coach a parent who is in that kind of rumble, they're wanting to defend, they don't like it. They feel disempowered. They're like, but how, how can I?

And so they're doing all the wrong things in a way to try to get some of that feeling of control. Solet's go there. What are some of the wrong things that we do? And then what are the things we can do?

[00:19:59] Joshua Coleman: Yeah. Well, I mean the, the most wrong thing you can do is to fail to realize that nothing compels your adult child to have a relationship with you beyond whether or not. They wanna have a relationship with you, so it's going to necessarily be on their terms. You're not gonna have the same kind of power that maybe your parents had over you.

Uh, or maybe you feel like you should, and if you were a better parent than your own parents were and you better generous and helped your child in all kinds of ways. You may feel entitled to a certain degree of power and influence over them, but, but your adult child gets, they get the final say on whether or not they're gonna be in relationship with you.

So, complaining about it probably isn't going to work. And being willing and able to shift into this newer model of family, which has more in line with romantic relationships than it does with prior parent adult child relationships. Meaning it has to be sensitive to the other person. It has to take place in a context of personal growth.

It has to be, identified with, that person's goals for happiness and their mental [00:21:00] health, et cetera. or you're, the adult child's gonna say, well, I'm not willing to play, by those rules, so see ya.

[00:21:07] Alison Cook: Okay, so, so first of all, understanding this is a new playbook of family. My young adult children are operating in many ways under different norms than I was, and

[00:21:20] Joshua Coleman: That's right.

[00:21:21] Alison Cook: so just accepting that radical acceptance, this is the reality.

[00:21:25] Joshua Coleman: This is reality. Yep,

[00:21:26] Alison Cook: Okay. And so to the parent who's hearing that going, but that feels like I'm giving up, know, it may feel like at first you're, you're sort of surrendering, but that would be part of the parent's work is then to go talk through what that stirs up in them with another therapist, with their own therapist.

[00:21:43] Joshua Coleman: Right. No, it's true. And, you know, not to overdo the parallel between romantic love, but, you know, and we fall in love with somebody and we marry them. I mean, part of what we have to do is accept the ways that we can't get them to change, and we have to accept their limitations, and we have to accept that they're not gonna be able to meet every need of ours.

And they probably [00:22:00] aren't, aren't necessarily gonna be able to, do all the things that we want them. To do, et cetera. And the same is true if we want a close relationship with our adult children, that may require a certain kind of grieving, that the relationship isn't gonna look like what you, wanted it to look like.

And if your kid has issues, if they have mental health issues, or if they're married to somebody who's troubled, or your divorced and your ex is poisoning them against you, or, uh, you know, the therapist has persuaded them that everything's your fault, you know you're gonna have even less power. So you have to really come to terms with that.

[00:22:31] Alison Cook: Yeah. And, coming to terms with that. I would say the first way to do that is not to try to get your young adult child to understand that unfortunately, that is not, you're gonna have to come to terms with that through processing the grief. I like how you used that word, grief. 

Just as in a marriage when you realize, oh, this person is not who I thought they were. You don't necessarily want to process that with them initially.

[00:22:55] Joshua Coleman: Exactly.

[00:22:55] Alison Cook: grieve that with someone else if you want to keep the relationship [00:23:00] intact.

[00:23:00] Joshua Coleman: Exactly. Yeah, they're very, very similar in that way. And we all have limitations. We as parents and our children as well in terms of what they can provide for us. And you know, I do think that because parents have largely done a better job and spent more time raising their children, probably spent more money.

Than prior generations. I think that they kind of come into the adulthood sort of hoping and assuming it's gonna be a really close relationship where there's gonna be a lot of gratitude and you know, it's just kind of luck of the cards. I mean, maybe you're gonna get that, maybe you're not, but if you're not, you can't insist on it 'cause it's just gonna turn your child away.

[00:23:33] Alison Cook: So what role does apology and accountability play for a parent? So we've accepted new terms, maybe done some work. What does the role of apology and accountability play in rebuilding an estranged relationship? I.

[00:23:49] Joshua Coleman: Yeah, I think it's huge. Um, you know, I always tell parents if they're estranged or. Start by writing a letter of amends where they take responsibility, where they find the kernel, if not the bush of truth in the children's complaints [00:24:00] where they don't try to explain, if they don't defend themselves, they don't blame other people.

Uh, it's just kind of a straightforward, yeah, I could see how this would be healthier for you to do, or why, why you have, based on these actions or behaviors. On my part, it's not an easy thing for parents to do, but that kind of courageous accountability can be much more compelling to an adult child than.

You know, that's something that's where you, the parent doesn't go there and just sort of insists that the adult child's being mean or unfair or not, you know, being appreciative of all the things the parent did for them. So, so accountability and, amends, which, you know, may not necessarily even be an apology per se.

I mean, some parents really don't know why the adult child has cut them off. And what I always tell parents is to say is something like, well, it's clear that I have significant blind spots. As a parent or as a person that I don't have a better understanding, but I would like to know more. And would you feel comfortable writing me or telling me I promise to listen or read purely to understand and not to defend myself?

 or if you wanna do family therapy, I would welcome that as well. [00:25:00] So, you know, just kind of like, it's a big sort of invitation to, to talk more and be close, but close in this new, much more kind of psychological way

AD BREAK 2

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[00:25:09] Alison Cook: Yeah, and, and really meaning that part of the radical acceptance is you're not, dangling that as a hook. So that, then when they come, you're, you're gonna go ahead and do all the you, you've gotta be ready, you've gotta be ready. 'cause that does take some core strength to be able to set aside our own, ego and, and to really honor that.

 no matter how unfair I think this is there's definitely gonna be kernels of truth. And being really willing to own all that. there’s that fine line of having the dignity of your own personhood while still honoring the mistakes that you've made.

[00:25:49] Joshua Coleman: Yeah, I know what I tell parents is it's about humility, not humiliation. And you know, I'll sometimes see on some of the forums parents saying, well, I'm not gonna grovel. And Coleman expects me to just keep apologizing and [00:26:00] apologizing and, you know, I'm not apologizing for anything. I didn't, I was gave that kid an incredible, really good life.

And, you know, that's why I say it's about humility, not humiliation. Because humility basically says that we all do have blind spots. Um, so we may feel, like. We could even objectively look like we were a great parent and our kids could objectively feel like they wish we'd done something different. You know, been much more involved or much less involved, you know, or push them harder or push, didn't push them as much, whatever it is, and sort of just insisting that they're wrong.

And you're right. I mean, that doesn't persuade anybody. You know, like if we just go back to the couples model, I mean, it's all about. Empathy and understanding. It's not about who's right and who's wrong, so that's why I think it's useful for parents just to go look. I, I guess I have blind spots that I wasn't aware you felt that way, but I'm glad you told me.

I'm sorry that my behavior caused you to feel, so whatever it is, hurt, neglected, misunderstood, you know, et cetera.

[00:26:54] Alison Cook: Yeah.

[00:26:55] Joshua Coleman: But it is hard. It is hard for parents. Not all parents can can do it. because some parents will say, [00:27:00] well, I, what about my own integrity? If I'm apologizing for something I didn't do, and I'm,, I mean, if the things you did do, which if you're like every single parent in the world, there are things that you did do.

You should start there for starters. but if you don't really understand, you know, it's just basic humility to say that, there are clearly things that I got wrong 

[00:27:18] Alison Cook: And in any relationship, I think, you know, my, my kids are, entering into young adulthood and I try to make a regular practice of going to them and saying, I'm so sorry. I was kind of a jerk last night. it, you're modeling something at the very least. And I try not to do that, to get something from them.

I try to do that 'cause it's true. And it's good for me and regardless of whether they care. So half the time they're like, I didn't really care, or, you know And so I think also parents can look at it as a, this is good for me. It's good for me to embark on a journey of a really good, healthy practice of, I love that humility, not humiliation.

You know, this, this wasn't great and it's good for me to say that too.

[00:27:54] Joshua Coleman: no, you're right. It's not only good, good role modeling and good parenting, it actually feels. [00:28:00] Better. Ultimately, as hard as it is to write in a amends letter, as hard as it is to apologize or to try to repair or be accountable, ultimately, you know, it stays in the dark, grows in the dark. you know, most of us know the kind of mistakes that we made with our children, and particularly if it's with a child who's.

You know, turned away, it can be therapeutic to just call a spade. A spade go, yeah. Hell yes. I was, I was that way. You know, that's why in aa, I think it's the eighth step, they talk about make a fearless and searching moral inventory of your character flaws. And partly it's because in AA they know that all the things that you keep in the dark, stay in the dark and have this kind of corrosive effect on your self-esteem and resilience.

[00:28:37] Alison Cook: I love that reference to aa. I work in a lot of IFS and we talk about taking the U-turn. No matter what it is, no matter how painful it is, there's always an opportunity to look inside yourself along the lines. With aa, there's always that opportunity to go, what can I take a look at? You know, there's always something.

And that is actually for my good. Hopefully it will restore this [00:29:00] relationship. yeah, I love that. that step in AA is a great reference.

[00:29:03] Joshua Coleman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's so important that ability.

[00:29:07] Alison Cook: What would you say to parents who feel like they have done everything that they can and their child just isn't gonna engage, they're just gone. What would you say to those parents?

[00:29:20] Joshua Coleman: Well, I have a lot of those in my practice. 'cause not all adult children are able and willing to reconcile no matter how perfectly the parent has, reached out to them, including with my guidance sometimes. And I tell them, well, we have to help you to not have it be a blight on your life, which is harder for moms in particular.

Moms, you know, tend to feel like, well there must be something else I can do, you know, and if I can't solve this, this means I'm a Not only a terrible mother, but a terrible person. And I say, no, you have to, you have to reclaim your life. Your kid gets a vote, but you're the CEO of your life. They don't get to have, be the ultimate decider about who you are as a parent and as a person.

 and a lot of parents, moms in particular were also the sort of turn away from the form of [00:30:00] things that gave them value and meaning because they felt like, well, what right do I have to a happy life if I don't have my child or my grandchildren in it? It is gonna be a life with a certain degree of pain in a certain way.

You have to like, you know, again, it's radical acceptance. It's like having a chronic, back ache or something, or some other kind of a medical condition. Or maybe you're in a bad marriage, you can't leave or don't wanna leave. And so there's sort of a chronic feeling of unhappiness and dissatisfaction that's just a part of your life.

You just wanna make sure that it's not the only part of your life or that it doesn't define you and become the whole part of your life.

[00:30:31] Alison Cook: That's good. That's well stated. Yeah. And, and this is true for all of us who are parents. It is true for all of us. We do have identities separate from that role. It just takes it to another level. And there is again, that word grief, that ongoing grief. I would love to just end on a note of as we're kind of talking about some of what's hard.

Why is this relationship worth. Fighting for both for , you know, young adults [00:31:00] of parents and also for the parents. Why is this valuable and why is it that we're losing something a little bit when we move too far away? Again, I get that sort of the pendulum swings of culture. you know, there was a lot of enmeshment.

We weren't allowed to name things that were hard in families of origin years long before I was born. Right? Where, there was some of this. So then the pendulum is that, you know, now we're just gonna kind of blow up the system. why is this worth fighting for and why is it important?

[00:31:25] Joshua Coleman: Yeah, I don't never need to convince parents of that. 'cause they already know because there's so much pain. But for the adult child, well, there's several ways to think about it. I mean, one is the vast majority of adult children, when they cut off contact with a parent, they cut off access to the grandchildren as well.

You know, to the parent who's the grandparent and often they'll say, well, it's not good for me, it's not good for my kids. And you know, there's a lot of people who are really, really good grandparents who maybe weren't that great as a parent, but they can still bring enormous value to grandchildren.

 and some of these grandparents were very involved in grandchildren's lives before they were cut off. And [00:32:00] so, you know, they're actually hurting their own children by. cutting off access to a loving decent grandparent, A B, it also can allow the grandparent the ability to repair some of the ways that they might not have been as good as parents.

And that might be good for you to see that they can do that. Although some adult children say, well, It's sort of infuriating for me in a way to see how good they could be with my own kids. How come they couldn't be there, you know, for me in the same way. And it's kinda like, well, it's a different role being a grandparent, but also if you cut off access to your parents and their grandchildren, I mean that also, it 

 makes families more fragile. It means that your children probably aren't gonna have as much access to their cousins because typically estrangement is a cataclysmic event, meaning that, not only grandparents and grandchildren, often if the parents are still together, it can create a lot of tension in their marriage.

 cousins may get cut off from seeing other cousins, siblings typically become divided, some with the estranged child, sibling, others with the parents. So it's a pretty serious event, and I think it just makes people. That much more. I mean, some people say no [00:33:00] best thing I ever did, I feel much, so much happier and more resilient.

And if you go on the, some of the forums like Reddit, that's not an uncommon thing that you see now, whether that's gonna be true, you know, in 10 years or so, whether that's gonna be better for their children, I. I don't think we know. I mean, my general concern is that as a society we're becoming much too kind of defracted and atomized.

We have rising rates of mental illness. I think that's in part because there's this ongoing feeling of mistrust. We're very preoccupied with our own boundaries and not thinking as much about kind of the more independent nature that of identity and, So I think we're suffering as a society by this like, I mean, again, yes, there are places for legitimate places for estrangement, but I, I do feel like particularly people in our field these days, I feel like are a little too quick to recommended it or endorse it or not provide enough tools towards reconciliation.

[00:33:49] Alison Cook: Yeah, it's interesting listening to you, Josh. It's in some ways the same invitation for the parent is for the young adult who's grieving what they didn't get from a [00:34:00] parent. Is that sort of radical acceptance, is that sort of resilience of I may never get what I really wanted. Um, and then that, that process of, you know, kind of shedding. What I maybe even deserved from a parent and didn't get, and again, we're not talking about extreme situations here 'cause those do exist, but also the muscles and the internal core strength that comes from, again, that more nuance of boundaries that we kind of do with our friends sometimes where there's sort of that, you know.

You know, you kind of come up with a new category. This, this is a human that matters. I'm connected to this human. Um, maybe I let go of this idea of mother or father that they weren't, and that's just what's true. And I can kind of adopt this other way. Like there's some creativity, right? When we honor that there is something to those bonds that do matter and, and we all have to kind of go through that process of kind of that dance of our individuality, but our connectedness.

Both things are are [00:35:00] important.

[00:35:00] Joshua Coleman: No, I think it's super well said, and I like how you're, how you're framing it, that, you know, there's a lot of growth that can happen in, in learning how to be with a parent who, isn't your ideal, who didn't really raise you in the way that you wish that you had, and landing on a compassionate note.

With that, you know, kind of like they really did the best that they could based on their own traumas or deprivations or who they were married to, or their socioeconomic status or, you know, or who we were as children, you know, because children are not, they're not like neutral players in this. There are, you know, difficult children who bring their own temperaments to the equation.

 so it's an opportunity if, your goal is personal growth, and I think younger generations. That is their goal. Then this provides you with a really rich opportunity to learn how to be in the presence of your parent and not be so triggered and not have to be so rigid about your boundaries and your limits and all that.

[00:35:48] Alison Cook: Yeah, that's a good point. That's an invitation to growth, that's a pretty sophisticated skill of emotional intelligence, right? To be able to understand what's hard, to kind of, again, I think about the [00:36:00] parts model, like a part of me as really unhappy here. And also I can lead myself through it.

[00:36:05] Joshua Coleman: Right.

[00:36:05] Alison Cook: that's really a great feeling too. That's very liberating. 'cause there's a lot of difficult people in the world.

[00:36:09] Joshua Coleman: There are, right, and I think in some ways it makes us less resilient if we're just constantly setting back. It looks empowered, it looks virtuous. You know, I'm cutting off these toxic people. I'm only surrounding myself with people who let me. But I mean, you know, first of all, it's probably. It doesn't make you more resilient.

I mean, we know from cognitive behavioral research that the things that make you anxious or afraid, you're better off kind of going towards and learning how to tolerate those feelings rather than to just kind of never, you know, involve yourself with them. And I think the same is true with our family relationships.

[00:36:40] Alison Cook: Well, I so appreciate all these resources you're providing. Tell my listeners where they could find you if they wanna take advantage of, of some of these great things you're doing.

[00:36:48] Joshua Coleman: Sure, yeah. I'm probably the best place is my website, triple W dot dr joshua coleman.com. That's D-R-J-O-S-H-U-A-C-O-L-E-M-A-N.com. I just started a substack [00:37:00] recently called Family Troubles. I. So you can find me on Substack. but my newsletter, you can send it for my free newsletter on my website and that goes out, you know, four times a week and it's got lots of, free articles in there about estrangement and if there's other things that I'm doing or you know, podcasts, et cetera.

So that's probably the best place to find me.

[00:37:18] Alison Cook: That's great. We'll link to all that in the show notes. I, I am just so grateful to have come across your work and grateful for what you're doing.

[00:37:24] Joshua Coleman: Well thank you. It was really great to talk to you.

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