Science-backed tools.
Spiritually-based wisdom.

What do you do when someone’s behavior leaves you feeling small, confused, or constantly on edge? 

That uneasy feeling isn’t random, it’s often a signal that something toxic is at play.

The Bible urges us to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves - to stay discerning, not naïve, in our relationships. Yet many of us brush off harmful patterns because we want to keep the peace, avoid conflict, or because our empathy and loyalty run deep. The problem? Those very strengths can make us more vulnerable to toxic strategies.

Dr. Alison names four of the most common toxic behaviors - manipulation, gaslighting, constant criticism, and triangulation - and shows you how to recognize them before they take root. She unpacks how to tell the difference between a one-time mistake and a repeated pattern of harm, and she offers practical tools to protect yourself without losing your compassion.

In this episode, we explore:

• The difference between mistakes and toxic patterns
• 4 common toxic behaviors and what they look like in real life
• The core root beneath toxic strategies
• How to deal with false guilt and set yourself free

If you’ve ever struggled with guilt, second-guessed your instincts, or felt trapped in a cycle of blame, this conversation will give you language, clarity, and hope for moving forward with wisdom and strength.

📥 Grab your 3 free Boundaries For Your Soul resources here 

📥 Download Alison’s free printable with the five boundary tools when you sign up for her weekly email.

Here are some other episodes you might like :

Episode 2: What Should I Know About Gaslighting?

Episode 110: How to Be Wise When People Are Difficult—Biblical Strategies For Keeping Your Emotional Health & Mental Sanity

‍

 📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here

💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

‍

Thanks to our Sponsors!

Go to ⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!.

If you’re looking for a Bible that helps you live the Word, not just read it, then grab this beautiful one I’m currently using at NIVapplicationbible.com.

Check out cozyearth.com and use code BESTOFYOU to get 45% off. Sleep cooler, lounge lighter, and embrace your cozy days with Cozy Earth.

*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

‍

Transcript

Hey everyone and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. - I'm so glad you're here with me this week. I'm so grateful for so many new listeners who are finding the podcast. It's just so great to see so many of you joining me each week as we come together in this work of soul mending of becoming the healthiest version of ourselves emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. And recently I was presenting at a conference. It was a spiritual formation conference, just a beautiful gathering of people. I met many of you there, which always just brings so much delight to my soul. Sometimes this work of podcasting where I'm kind of talking to you and I, I sense your presence with me but I don't get to meet you and see your faces and give you a hug and it was just amazing to get to meet so many of you and so many of you came up to me and told me how much this work means to you and I just want to thank you for that. It really means a lot to me to get those opportunities to connect with you in real spaces and one of the workshops that I gave was on my book I Shouldn't Feel This way. 

‍

It's all about the process of building emotional intelligence, of learning to name what's hard, naming emotions, naming what's wrong, naming what's going on inside of our souls, framing it, figuring out how to take what we've named and frame it so that we can brave it. We can actually take action in our lives. There's three parts to that process of becoming an emotionally intelligent person, right? It's that awareness piece, that naming piece, and then it's that regulating piece, figuring out how to frame what's happening before we dive into the connection piece, right? Connecting what's happening in my soul to someone else with whom might need to have a conversation, with whom I might need to set a boundary, with whom I might need to take a brave action. And as we were working through all of that, it's a lot of material in the workshop, I thought about one really important component of naming. 

‍

And I go through this in a very specific chapter toward the end of the book, I shouldn't feel this way, but it's naming toxic strategies and I always hate that I have to bring this topic up in my work but it's so important because unfortunately in this world we are gonna bump up against people who are gonna use strategies to try to hook us or to try to pull us or lure us into behaviors or conversations or even relationships that won't at the end of the day be healthy for us. And if we're not aware of those strategies, we can get hooked in ways that aren't good for us. 

‍

The Bible talks about not being fools. It talks about being wise, being clearheaded, being aware of what's happening around us. Don't be a fool is a repeated refrain in the book of proverbs and it's up to us to equip ourselves and to know how to recognize toxic strategies that others are using around us that are going to take us down paths we don't need to go down. In fact, this happened to me just recently. I was with someone and something in my body whispered, "Be careful here. Be careful." I wasn't sure why in the moment they seemed perfectly nice on the surface, but something just didn't feel right. And so I paid attention to that signal. I stayed friendly and polite, but I subtly shifted my energy so that I wasn't giving this person access to precious jewels, right? Vulnerable information, personal information that is mined to steward with care.

‍

And in that moment, it looked like not volunteering personal information, redirecting overly personal questions and keeping the conversation on neutral topics instead of giving away pieces of my private experience. And I kind of just shifted into that, but it's because I've done this work for a long time. And later as I had time to unpack it, I realized how far I'd come. I've learned to detect these subtle signs of manipulation or control or someone with false motives. And I've learned to protect myself much more effectively and seamlessly now and it saves me a lot of pain down the road. And I know that so many of you listening know exactly what I'm talking about, especially if you're an empathetic person, if you're highly responsible, if you're really sensitive to the nuances of others, it's so easy to get sucked into other people's toxic strategies to hook you. And these strengths can actually make you more susceptible to those behaviors. 

‍

And one of the things I'm passionate about on this podcast is helping you detect and name those strategies, not so that You can blame other people or suddenly become cynical or skeptical, but so that you can stay wise and when you stay wise, you actually become more effective, more truly helpful, more truly loving of other people. Our love of other people is rooted first and foremost in our wisdom, in our discernment in our ability to see through the strategies ultimately of the enemy of our souls that other people get caught up in, right? And so when we can be wise, we can actually become more effective in helping other people get freed from their toxic strategies too. And that's why I wanted to re -air today's episode.

‍

This episode struck a chord with so many of you last year and I wanted to bring it back with fresh years and a few new reflections because in it I pull out four of those most common toxic behaviors that trip us up and I walk you through how to recognize them and how to protect yourself. Before we get started, I want to ask for your help. We love your input on an upcoming episode. We're preparing on the topic of comparison. When does comparison most trip you up? Is it on social media? Is it within your family? Is it at work watching a co -worker get promoted? Is it related to health or body changes? Is it seeing someone else's spiritual life, parenting milestones, finances, or even within your marriage? Where do you feel that inner pinch most of I'm behind, I'm not enough, or why not me? And what helps you move back toward steadiness and joy?

‍

We'd love for you to give us a call. You can call us at 307 -429 -2525 and leave a voicemail that we'd love to feature on a future episode. And just let us know, what do you notice about comparison in your life? Where does it show up? What questions do you have about it? And do you have a brief story even about how comparison strains your peace and how you worked through it in a healthy way? Again, that's 307 -429 -2525. We love to hear from you about comparison or really any other questions that you have for us here at the Best of You podcast. 

‍

Okay, let's dive in to today's episode. As you listen, notice what lands in your body. Maybe jot down maybe one behavior you want to get curious about, one boundary yo might want to experiment with, or one conversation you're ready to approach differently. Remember, you don't have to convince anyone to change in order to choose health for Self, small, steady steps add up over time.

‍

I'm so grateful that you're here. Let's jump in.

‍

 So today I want to dive into four toxic behaviors I think everyone should know about and how to protect yourself. So first of all, what are toxic behaviors? What do I mean by that? The word toxic simply means dangerous, destructive, or harmful. It's any sort of behavior that is designed to hurt you. 

‍

Some behaviors are annoying. We don't like them, but they're not actually harmful. When we're talking about toxic behaviors, we're talking about behaviors that are damaging. They're doing harm on some level. The key point to remember about toxic behaviors is they're a consistent pattern of behaviors over time.

‍

Any one of us can be toxic in a moment. Any one of us can lie, can guilt trip, can maybe even manipulate, can lash out angrily, can triangulate. Any of these things we're going to talk about today, every single one of us has probably done at some point in our lives.

‍

If we're honest with ourselves, we struggle with certain toxic behaviors more than others. We can all be toxic in a moment, but here's the difference between a mistake and a pattern of toxic behaviors over time.

‍

Number one, frequency. Making a mistake is part of being human. It's often an isolated incident. It occurs infrequently. A pattern of toxic behaviors occurs repeatedly over time. These harmful behaviors continue to recur despite the consequences of those actions. There's a clear pattern of these behaviors over time; it's not a one-off mistake.

‍

Number two, intent. Mistakes that we make are usually unintentional. They might result from a lack of knowledge. They might result from a lack of understanding in the moment. They might result from our own stress. We get overwhelmed, maybe we melt down, we do something we wish we didn't do, we get stuck in a moment and we grasp for a strategy to get ourselves out of the moment.

‍

We do something that later on we go, oh, I could have handled that situation better. That's a mistake. A pattern of toxic behaviors tends to be more intentional, and even if a toxic behavior was not initially intended to harm, if someone refuses to modify that behavior after its effects are made known, that might reflect a harmful intent. 

‍

This gets a little bit into the buzzword narcissism–you can go back to episode one to learn more. When someone is narcissistic, they are not capable of caring how their behaviors Impact you. Maybe they're completely sold over to self-preservation, but it's still harmful intent because that person is not willing to change or to grow or to heal.

‍

That leads us right into the third differentiating factor between someone who makes a mistake and a toxic pattern of behaviors over time, and that's willingness to change after making a mistake. Someone who feels remorse takes responsibility and shows a genuine willingness to learn from the experience so that they can avoid repeating it.

‍

That's what you do when you make a mistake. Now, listen, we're not perfect. A really bad habit that someone has developed over years can take a long time to change. We're not asking for perfection, but we are asking for ownership and responsibility. And we are asking for steps toward improvement with toxic behaviors. There's typically a lack of genuine remorse or taking responsibility. Instead of that, there's denial, there's justification, there's rationalization.

‍

“If you wouldn't do this, I wouldn't have to resort to this toxic behavior”. There's blame shifting. I'm going to blame you for my toxic behaviors. Or there might be repeated empty promises to change without any real action. And we see this: “Oh, I'm so sorry. It'll never happen again”. And then it's Groundhog Day. And that person keeps doing it. They're not actually taking responsibility for those toxic actions. 

‍

Now listen, toxic patterns of behaviors lie on a spectrum. Some folks demonstrate mostly toxic behaviors–there's very little good. And in those cases, you have to ask yourself, why am I continuing to be in a relationship with this person when the impact of their presence on my life is mostly harmful?

‍

That's one end of the spectrum. There are also a lot of people that are more in the middle of that spectrum. And what that means is maybe they have a toxic habit that is repeated that they don't change, that they're not showing signs toward growth, but there's also some good. 

‍

And those are some of the most challenging relationships. You might want to continue on in a relationship with that person because there's some good there. There are good reasons, there are positive benefits to the relationship.

‍

And in those instances, you have to figure out how to quarantine and protect yourself from the toxic behavior while still enjoying the person's good qualities. So if you want more on that, on the nuances of those boundaries, check out my book, The Best of You. It's a lot about the nuances of healthy boundary setting in relationships.

‍

When you think about that spectrum, for example, maybe there's a person in your life, a friend or a parent or a family member who tends to manipulate you to get their emotional needs met. They don't want to hurt you. And there are good things there. Maybe they're really loyal. Maybe they do show up for you when you need them. Maybe they help out with your kids but the pattern of manipulation in this one area really does hurt you.

‍

That's an example of where there's some good. But there's also some harm and you need to be able to name that harmful behavior in order to protect yourself from it so that you can enjoy this person's good qualities. There are two important byproducts of learning to name toxic behaviors. Number one, you will learn how to protect yourself. Okay. This person tends to do this. I'm not in this to go call them out on their stuff. 

‍

I want to become a healthier version of myself. So the more I can see that behavior and name it, I can begin to extract myself from that toxicity, I'm extracting myself from a toxic dynamic so that I can stay healthy so that I can grow so that I can keep moving forward on the path God wants me to be on. 

‍

And now that I know what this is and that it's in fact toxic, I can start to untangle from it and keep moving forward toward growth. That's number one, but number two, as you disentangle from toxic behaviors, you will begin to have healthier boundaries. And guess what that does–that empowers the other person to make their own choice. 

‍

You'll find out really quickly if that other person begins to change with you and grow as well. That's amazing. You've been part of a healing process. You've unleashed more healing through healing yourself and extracting yourself from toxicity. That other person is now going to get freer too.

‍

On the other hand, that other person may recognize that you're setting different boundaries. They may recognize that you're shifting the dynamics in a relationship and they might not like it and they might get more toxic. They might continue with their toxic behaviors. They might even ratchet up the intensity of the toxicity. That's also their choice. That's their choice.

‍

And as they do that, you will need to continue to protect yourself and move toward health. So this process of learning to name and identify toxic behaviors is about getting healthier yourself, removing the toxins as best you can from your relationships.

‍

It's also about empowering other people to make healthy choices. Not because you're trying to get them to change, but because by getting healthier and extracting yourself, it will automatically unleash a ripple effect of healing. That other person will have their own choice to make. You're not in control of the choice they make, but you are at least giving them that opportunity.

‍

Here are the four toxic behaviors I want to talk about today. Number one is manipulation. Number two is gaslighting. It's a buzzword, but it's an important one to understand in our culture today. Number three is constant criticism. And number four is triangulation.

‍

Now this is not an exhaustive list. There are a lot of toxic behaviors. But these are four that I see frequently in the people that I work with in my own life and the people that I serve. All of these behaviors have one thing in common. These are all forms of manipulation and control. We manipulate other people to avoid doing our own work. We try to control others instead of taking control of ourselves.

‍

That's the root of all toxic behaviors. I don't like what's happening inside of me. I don't like what I feel. I don't like how I feel about myself. I don't like how I feel in this situation. Instead of taking ownership of myself with God's help, I try to manipulate you. I try to control you. I try to get other people to do the work that is mine. To do that is the root of toxic behaviors.

‍

When you begin to recognize these toxic behaviors, you stop letting other people manipulate and control you. It was never your job to do this work for them. It's their job to do their own work. When you recognize these strategies and stop being hooked by them, you free yourself to be a healthier person and you remove that avenue that this other person has been using inappropriately, which gives them that choice. 

‍

They get to choose then what they're going to do with that. And their choice is not your responsibility. 

‍

So let's talk about manipulation. Manipulation is a form of control. It's a more insidious, often indirect form of control. When we say someone's controlling in an overt way, these tend to be domineering people that get really aggressive and create power moves telling you what to do, what to think, or what to feel, and that's a form of toxicity.

‍

Manipulation is a more indirect or covert form of control. Now, this is really important, so listen closely. Someone who's manipulative is trying to influence or control your actions, your emotions, your decisions to serve their interests, and their interests are selfish. They're not trying to help you. The effort to manipulate is at the expense of your wellbeing. And it's certainly without your consent. 

‍

Often this is done really subtly where you might not even realize you're being manipulated, and it is not for your good. It is for the person who's manipulating to feel powerful, to feel better about themselves. Again, as I said before, they're not doing their own work. They're trying to manipulate you to behave or think or feel or act in a certain way that makes them feel better about themselves. 

‍

Here are some examples: someone who guilt-trips you tries to get you to feel bad, even when you haven't done anything wrong. Someone who's guilt-tripping you doesn't respect your personal boundaries. Maybe you tell your friend, I can't make it this week and I'm so sorry. I wish I could be there. I can't. I've got these five things going on in my own family. 

‍

And instead of honoring that, and saying, oh, I'm disappointed. I wish you could make it, but I completely understand. That's a healthy response. I'm disappointed. I'm taking responsibility for my own emotions. And I also completely understand and I honor that decision that you made. That decision makes sense to me. I get it.

‍

Someone who guilt trips or manipulates you might say something like, I've done everything for you. I dropped everything to be there for you. And you can't do this one thing for me. They're manipulating you, they're making you feel bad. You've actually made a wise decision, but they're trying to make you feel bad because they can't tolerate the disappointment or for whatever reason, they can't tolerate the fact that you've said a healthy no. 

‍

Now, remember, we can all do this in a moment. This becomes toxic when it becomes a regular pattern over time. When someone is constantly disrespecting your boundaries and guilting you to make you feel bad for healthy decisions you are in fact making.

‍

Another example of manipulation can be passive aggressive digs. I guess you're just too busy for me. That's a manipulative statement. You're trying to get the other person to feel bad. In contrast, taking responsibility for your own emotions would be to say, oh man, I'm bummed. I'd love to see you more. I love having you around, but I understand.

‍

You're honoring that the other person has made choices. Now listen, this is nuanced because we are allowed to set healthy boundaries for ourselves in response to someone else's boundaries. If you're in a relationship with someone who you feel like is too busy for you, they're never available, they never call you back, they're never showing up for things, and that hurts you? 

‍

You get to protect yourself. It's not okay to try to manipulate the other person to get them to show up for you. That's not okay. But what you can do in that situation is move on to another friendship, or you can even communicate that and say, man, I would love to have more time with you. I think you're amazing. I wish we had more time together. 

‍

I see that you've got a lot on your plate and I really want to honor that. I've got to step back and I need to invest more in these other relationships. 

‍

That would be a healthy response to someone who you've realized, oh, they're too busy for me. They don't have time for me. You would be proactive to shift away from investing in that person, not to punish them, not to threaten them, but simply to align your decisions with the reality.

‍

This person doesn't have time for you. That would be a healthy response, but to try to continually manipulate that other person to do something they clearly aren't doing or don't want to do, or haven't decided to do, or can't make time to do, is toxic. It's toxic.

‍

You can't manipulate or control somebody into being in a relationship with you. It's not fair to yourself or to the other person. Again, we'd sometimes do these things because we don't know better. We're like, oh man, I'm hurt by this other person. I don't know what to do. We resort to some of these toxic behaviors. All of us do at times. But when you become aware, you are then responsible to change.

‍

If someone is guilt-tripping you, they're trying to manipulate or control you to get more of your time, to get more of your money, to get more of your volunteer work, to get more of your caretaking in whatever way. You need to recognize when someone is manipulating you versus when there's a legitimate need.

‍

And if someone is manipulating you, it can be really hard because you feel bad. They're masters at making you feel guilty. You have to recognize, I think I'm being manipulated here. This person never respects my boundaries. They always want more than I can give. They're always trying to get me to do things I'm not comfortable doing. 

‍

There's a consistent pattern of that. And I hate how I feel. That's a red flag. When you're repeatedly operating out of guilt, I call it guilt-driven love. That's a red flag. And your job is not to get the other person to change. Your job is to recognize that and figure out before God, what is my actual responsibility to this person? 

‍

What is the actual need if there is any? And what is my actual responsibility to this person, if there is any? Often your actual responsibility to this person is very different from what they're trying to manipulate out of you. Your job is to recognize, I'm being manipulated here. I've got to stop responding to every single one of these digs, every single one of these manipulative statements aimed at making me feel guilty.

‍

I've got to pause and inside myself, name it. Ooh, I think I'm being guilt-tripped here. Use that comma God–I think I'm being guilt tripped here, God. The first thing I've gotta do is try not to respond to that guilt trip, separate out from it, get really logical about it. What is the actual need? What am I actually responsible for?

‍

Find some safe people to bounce that off of, ask a couple of safe people. Hey, do you think this is actually my responsibility? Does this seem like a fair ask to you? Gain some objectivity, and then set those healthy boundaries going forward.

‍

Next is gaslighting. Gaslighting is a really toxic form of manipulation. It ratchets up the toxicity. It's a form of psychological abuse. It's when someone uses lies and deception to manipulate you into questioning yourself or feeling crazy.

‍

They're messing with you. They're trying to manipulate you into doubting yourself, doubting your memory, or doubting your perceptions of reality, your own instincts, doubting what you believe to be true. And they're doing this to try to get you to stay dependent on them, to exert power over you so that you won't leave them, so that you won't maybe out them. 

‍

Maybe they're doing something wrong and they're trying to keep you feeling crazy so that you won't unleash the power of truth. They're terrified of that. They don't want their own stuff to come to the surface. So they try to manipulate you so that you won't actually get to the truth of what's happening. Here's an example, a classic example of gaslighting. 

‍

Maybe your spouse has started drinking again and you confront him on it. You say, hey, it seems like you might be drinking again. I've noticed you seem more bleary eyed, you're staying out late. I'm curious what's going on. First of all, they deny it. They lie. “No, I'm not”. Then they accuse you. “You're crazy. You're paranoid. How dare you accuse me?” 

‍

So there's two components. They're lying to cover up their own tracks and then they're turning it on you to make you feel bad. 

‍

Maybe you have a parent or a family member, a friend who's talking behind your back or slandering you or doing some really harmful things behind your back and you confront them on it. You go to them and say, hey, what's going on? Are you doing this? Are you talking about me? Did you spread this gossip about me? 

‍

And they deny it. “No, I would never do that. How dare you accuse me? You are ungrateful”. Do you see what's happening there? They're making you feel crazy. You feel like a bad person because you confronted them. It's so toxic because you feel bad. And in fact, you were right about it. You question yourself. You doubt yourself. It leads to so much chaos and confusion in your own soul.

‍

Number three, constant criticism. We all need to be able to receive constructive feedback. That's a part of growth. That's a part of becoming a truer version of ourselves. My husband and I use the metaphor of lettuce in the teeth. We need people who have our backs and say, hey, I hate to tell you this, but you got lettuce in your teeth. 

‍

And that could be like, I hate to tell you this, but the way you talk to that person, ooh, that wasn't good. You might need to go back and apologize. We need people in our lives who help us see our blind spots, who point out when we're showing up with lettuce in our teeth, even though we don't like to hear it. 

‍

That kind of constructive feedback that's rooted in trust, that's rooted in safety, that's rooted in relationships where there's mutual consent, you've agreed with a friend or with a loved one or with a family member–hey, would you let me know if I'm out of bounds? I need your set of eyeballs on this. Because I'm not sure. I'm trying to figure this out. 

‍

I need you to let me know if I'm out of bounds here, if the way I'm talking to our kids, or if the way I'm showing up at this small group, or if the way I'm showing up with these other friends of ours, if there's anything I'm doing that you think is out of line. We need those types of people in our life. Constant criticism is completely different.

‍

It can actually be a form of verbal abuse. It's when someone is continually, consistently over time, undermining you, pointing out perceived flaws, criticizing your actions, your appearance, your abilities. It's toxic. When you're the target of constant criticism, it's as if you're receiving a million tiny paper cuts to your soul constantly. It can show up with shaming comments. It can show up with sarcasm. It can show up with insults. It can show up with broad sweeping statements of judgment.

‍

For example, you're always so disorganized. Can't you do anything right? Are you really going to wear that? Do you really want your hair to look that way?

‍

It can also come out as sarcasm. Not everybody can be as perfect as you are. That's a dig. These comments leave you feeling wounded. Now again, we need constructive feedback. Sometimes a partner or parent or a loved one or you as a parent might need to say, oh, I don't know if that's the shirt you want to wear.

‍

There's a way to give constructive feedback. It's hard. You have to think about how to give the people that you love constructive feedback in their lives. Criticism, sarcasm, passive aggressive comments, constantly pointing out someone else's flaws is toxic.

‍

And here's the thing. Someone who's constantly criticizing is not doing it for your good. They're not actually doing it to help you. That's that intent piece. They're not trying to help you improve or grow or change. They're trying to make themselves feel better than you. It's born out of deep seated insecurity and a fragility of self. It's not about trying to help you improve. It's about trying to make themselves feel better.

‍

And it's really toxic. You are not created to thrive in a toxic environment that is cruel, shaming, or harsh. Even if a part of you knows rationally, I know this is about them, I know this isn't about me, I know they're insecure, it doesn't matter. It still wounds you. It still wounds you. None of us is created to thrive in those settings.

‍

God designed our souls, hearts, and minds for warmth, for care, for connection, for compassion. I think of the scripture where it says God's kindness is what leads us to repentance. So even when God points out that lettuce in our teeth, even when God comes to us and says, oh, Alison, I don't think you should have done that. 

‍

I think you were deceptive there because you were scared to be brave. I think you were a little bit hard on that person, a little judgmental of that person. Do you hear the tone in my voice when God shows me those things? God isn't shaming me. 

‍

It hurts. I don't like it when God points out when I made a mistake. I don't like it when the people I love point out, oh, Alison, I don't think you showed up exactly as your best self in that situation. It hurts, but it doesn't shame me. That kindness leads to me going, oh man, you're right. I could have done better. I need to make it right. 

‍

The truth sets us free. It liberates us. It helps us become a better person. It doesn't shame us. It doesn't crush us. Constant criticism makes us feel desolate and helpless and like we'll never be good enough. It doesn't help us. It harms us. It's really toxic.

‍

Lastly, I want to talk about triangulation. I think it's one of the toxic patterns of behavior that is talked about the least and very quietly does a lot of damage, especially in families and in close friend groups. Triangulation is when one person pulls you into the middle of their conflict with a third person.

‍

Instead of working through their problem directly with the person involved, they might do any of the following: they might vent to you about the other person, but never address their own frustrations with the other person. They might ask you directly to fix their problem with the other person when it's not your place to enter in.

‍

So for example, maybe your mom comes to you and vents to you about how your dad has been treating her. And the implication is you should go talk to your dad and get him to apologize to me. You should go talk to your dad and get him to give me more money. You should go talk to your dad and get him to change his behaviors. 

‍

It is toxic, especially when parents do it to a child, but even in a friend group. Maybe a friend comes to you and says, man, I don't like how our other friend treats me, I think you should talk to her and get her to see the error of her ways. It's really toxic. It's a form of manipulation. That person's trying to get you to do her work for her.

‍

Sometimes they do it indirectly. They tell you all the stuff that bothers them about this other person. And you're left holding the baggage. You're left holding a suitcase full of burdens that aren't your burdens. Maybe you don't have a problem with the other person, but now you've got the suitcase.

‍

You've got the baggage and you don't know what to do with it. It leaves you feeling really anxious. It leaves you feeling really guilty because you feel bad that you're not fixing this problem for the other person, but you also feel bad because you don't want to go to this other person that you don't have a problem with and give them the suitcase of baggage. 

‍

You're left by yourself with a suitcase full of baggage that was never yours to carry. You absorb all the weight of the conflict without any clear path to resolve it. And when this occurs consistently over time, maybe within a family, maybe within a close friend group, you're also not getting the attention you need.

‍

You're being viewed as a mediator or as a dumping ground for other people's problems instead of as your own distinct person who is worthy of a two-way reciprocal relationship. And I see this all the time with folks who are highly empathetic, who are caretakers, who are helpers, who are trying to help other people.

‍

They get put into the middle of other people's problems. Now there are healthy ways to seek third party counsel. Sometimes we need to bounce off of another friend a problem that we're having. We need advice. We need wisdom in healthy ways.

‍

I actually tend to think of the story of Mary and Martha in the Bible as an example of triangulation. The story is found in Luke 10:38-42, and in the passage, Martha's busy with extensive preparation. She's trying to get everything on the table. She's trying to make sure the event gets pulled off while her sister, Mary is sitting quietly at Jesus' feet, listening to him. 

‍

A lot of us can identify with Martha. That's annoying. Listen, I'm doing all the work. Come on, help me out. There are a lot of ways to interpret this passage, but one of the ways that I like to think about it is in terms of triangulation.

‍

We don't know what Martha's intent was. We don't know if she did this regularly. We don't know her backstory. This might've been a one-off, but instead of going to Mary with her gripe, she goes to Jesus and complains about Mary. Don't you care that my sister has left me to do all the work by myself? Tell her she should be helping me. 

‍

She goes to Jesus with her gripe about Mary. And if you notice, Jesus sets a boundary. He says, listen, Mary's made a choice and I'm good with her choice. You've made a different choice. What's to say that your choice is better? 

‍

Jesus does not indulge her attempt to pull him into the middle. He doesn't say, oh, you're right. Mary, you really should help Martha here. He sets that healthy boundary in that situation. We see Jesus setting healthy boundaries with toxic behaviors. All throughout the New Testament, he was a master at setting boundaries with toxicity. What do we have to learn from Jesus? It's about protecting ourselves from these toxic behaviors. 

‍

Number one is start with yourself. Start noticing any of these patterns in yourself without shame, because the number one best way to protect yourself from toxicity at the hands of others is to become really aware of it in yourself. Oh man, sometimes I do that. Sometimes I triangulate because I don't know how to go to the person directly. Lord, help me change that. 

‍

Here's the thing. When you begin to name and notice your own unhealthy strategies, you become really aware of them and you gain a lot more confidence in seeing them in the world around you. Because when we're indulging in our own toxic behaviors, we don't want to call other people out because we don't want to call ourselves out. So number one is to notice without shame, oh, these are some things I do. 

‍

I presented at a workshop last weekend and at the end of the day I asked them what they got out of it. And one woman raised her hand and she said, you know what I got out of this workshop? She said, I'm not very good at accepting other people's boundaries. And I almost teared up. I was like, man, that is profound. The fact that what you got out of this was, I'm the one that's not so good at honoring other people's boundaries.

‍

That awareness is so key, not only to becoming a healthier person yourself, but also to recognizing toxic behaviors in other people. The best antidote against toxicity and others is to be really honest with ourselves before God. 

‍

Number two, if you're dealing with someone who is regularly indulging in these toxic behaviors and without showing any remorse and without really responding to you, be aware. It is going to stir up a lot of guilt and a lot of painful emotions inside of you when you start to change, and you need to anticipate that because when you start to set boundaries with toxic behaviors, it can feel really uncomfortable and folks will try to use that against you.

‍

They know they can make you feel guilty. They'll know they can exploit your good heart, your high responsibility. Be aware that guilt doesn't mean you've done something wrong. It might mean you've done something incredibly brave. 

‍

You've got to really work on that core strength, telling yourself, I'm trying to get healthier. This other person might not like it, but I know that disentangling from their toxicity and moving toward health is ultimately better for both of us, even if that other person doesn't see it that way. Even if that other person doesn't see it that way, you're taking God's invitation to get healthier. Even when they don't see it that way.

‍

And then lastly, I want you to think about the difference between “word boundaries” and “action boundaries”. Boundaries do not require anything from the other person. You're not trying to get the other person to change their ways. You have no control over that. You cannot change another person.

‍

Most of us want to get the other person to understand what they're doing. We want them to recognize, oh my gosh, I'm engaging in toxic behavior. I need to stop. That happens sometimes, but it often doesn't. Your goal is not to get the other person to understand the error of their ways. Your goal is to remove yourself from the toxic behavior. 

‍

You're not trying to get the other person to change their ways. You have no control over that. You cannot change another person. Your goal when dealing with toxic behaviors is to take effective action to remove yourself from the toxicity as much as possible. So many people get fixated on wanting to get the other person to change or at the very least to understand what they've done wrong.

‍

It's really hard for us to believe that another person doesn't care. They're so absorbed in these toxic patterns of behaviors. They can't see how their behaviors are harming you and that hurts us. And we do need to grieve that. There's grief involved in setting healthy boundaries. We have to grieve what we can't get from the other person. And it's painful to watch someone choose to continue in their pattern of toxic behaviors. 

‍

But the bottom line is that obedience to God and a commitment to your own health and wholeness means that you can only take charge of your own responses and actions. You cannot change another person. If you try to get that other person to change, you are in jeopardy of trying to control or manipulate them.

‍

You only have control over your own responses, your own reactions, and the steps you take to move away from toxic behaviors.

‍

You might communicate with a word boundary, but if you choose that route, your goal is to state the action you are going to take in response to the toxic behavior. It's something that you should be able to do without their help, without their permission. Even if they don't like it, you're going to let them know what you are going to do to change the dynamic going forward.

‍

So for example, you always start with the good. Start with something positive, especially if you're planning to stay in the relationship or it's the first time you've communicated. I appreciate you. I value our relationship. I've noticed that our conversations often veer into discussing your issues with dad or with mom or with my sister or with this other friend of ours. 

‍

This triangulation is uncomfortable for me. It stirs up anxiety inside of me and I'm not going to participate in it anymore. In the future, if you bring up your issues with this person, I'm going to excuse myself from the conversation. I'm going to get off the phone or I'm going to walk away. 

‍

This is a boundary that I need to set for my own health. Full stop. That's it. And do you see how you're naming a behavior? You're naming it. But you're saying, this is what I'm going to do to not participate in this anymore.

‍

That's it. And then you have to make good on that with your actions. You don't have the conversation with that person anymore. If it happens again, you use an action boundary. You remove yourself. That's it. Now, again, depending on the nature of the relationship, depending on the level of toxicity, the other person might ratchet up the toxicity. They don't like it. If that's the case, you need to be wise. You might take someone with you, use the buddy system to go into that conversation.

‍

Don't do it alone because you need someone there to help anchor you. You might have to do it over the phone. You might have to do it over text. You might have to do it in writing. That's okay. Depending on the level of toxicity, sometimes that's what you have to do to let the boundary be known.

‍

The goal is to get yourself out of interacting with that toxic behavior. But again, notice you've taken responsibility for the actions. You're going to remove yourself. The other person doesn't have to do anything.

‍

Now I want to give a note: with someone who uses gaslighting tactics, words almost never work because people who gaslight are a master of manipulating words. No matter what you say to them, they're going to say, you're paranoid. You're cruel. I can't believe you're going to do that. That's evil. 

‍

They're going to turn anything, no matter how healthy, no matter how well worded the script is, they're going to turn it and use it against you. That's what gaslighters do. So in the case where there's a lot of toxicity, words won't work. You're going to use action boundaries. Action boundaries are a very legitimate option in the case of toxic behaviors, especially when you're pretty sure this person isn't going to take it very well.

‍

They're not going to like it. Action boundaries are really powerful. An action boundary means that you let your actions do the talking. They're communicated through changes in your behaviors. Instead of using words to communicate, you simply refuse to engage. And there are a lot of ways to do this. You might excuse yourself from a call. You might leave the room. You might use grounding exercises. 

‍

You might stop being alone with the other person because it's not safe. You have to only be with them in group gatherings or group situations. You use the buddy system to have someone with you when you have to be with that person, depending on the level of severity. You let your actions do the work of creating that boundary.

‍

And in some cases, you have to leave the relationship altogether. Because like we said, there's no good that counterbalances the harm. And you have to leave that relationship altogether. 

‍

Now, listen, this is all a lot harder than it sounds. Depending on the level of toxicity, you might want to reach out to a professional therapist to help you. There's a lot on this in my book, The Best of You. So look at those resources, get support for yourself. But the most important thing I want you to understand today as we close is that naming a pattern of toxic behaviors is an act of love. It's a gift you give not only to yourself, but also to others. It's not loving to indulge or enable somebody else's toxic pattern of behaviors.

‍

It's not loving to them and it's not loving to yourself. Whether or not the other person recognizes that gift that you are giving them is beside the point. You are creating an opportunity for both parties, yourself and the other person, to brave a different, healthier path. 

‍

You are freeing yourself to pursue the healing and goodness that lies ahead. And you are releasing the other person to making their own choices. You can love someone and leave a toxic pattern of behavior. You can forgive someone and maintain firm boundaries. You can value someone and refuse to engage in their toxicity.

‍

Jesus said, be as wise serpents and innocent as doves. We long to embody the purity of doves soaring above life's challenges. But the problem is that while we are still inhabiting planet earth, we are at times going to have to inch our way through the murky and chaotic underbelly of this life created by toxic behaviors.

‍

It's part of reality and pretending otherwise won't change it. I want you to be wise. I want you to be shrewd. And I also don't want you to lose your innocence. That's the goal here as you name and recognize toxicity for what it is. You will find your way through it. You will move out of its snare and into the healing, the honesty, the loving mutuality God wants for you, and you will appreciate the joy of what real love and genuine goodness looks like all the more for the pain you've endured.

‍

You are worth the work that it takes to move away from toxic behaviors. Your brave actions honor God. It honors yourself. And I promise you, whether it feels this way or not, it honors the other person.

‍

Where do you turn when heartache threatens to take over your whole life?

‍

This week, Dr Alison is joined by Amber Smith to talk about her journey from crushing grief to quiet, hard-won hope. Many of you know part of her story: the unthinkable loss of her three-year-old son, River, in 2019. 

‍

Together, they talk about the raw reality of grief—how faith can be both anchor and wrestle, how a marriage can survive when each person’s pain looks different, and why welcoming joy again is not a betrayal of what you’ve lost.

‍

If you’ve ever faced heartbreak or walked alongside someone in deep pain, this conversation will meet you right where you are - whether you’re on your own bathroom floor or standing beside someone who is.

‍

In this episode, we explore:

• ‍Amber’s story of losing her son, River, and the spiritual transformation that followed
• The “before and after” shift that tragedy brings to faith and identity
• How she and her husband, Granger Smith, fought for their marriage
• Why grief can quietly become an idol
• How holding space for grief can bring a family closer
  
  ‍

‍

This episode blends honesty, tenderness, and practical wisdom, exploring what it means to choose life and love while discovering God’s presence in moments when hope feels distant.

📥 Grab your 3 free Boundaries For Your Soul resources here 

📥 Download Alison’s free printable with the five boundary tools when you sign up for her weekly email.

📚 Find Amber’s Book here:   The Girl on the Bathroom Floor by Amber Smith

‍

Here are some other episodes you might like :

Episode 76: Finding the Faith & Strength to Move Forward after Loss & Heartache With Granger Smith

Episode 133: From Feeling Numb to Meaning-Making — Navigating the 6 Stages of Grief 

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here

‍

💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

‍

Thanks to our Sponsors!‍

• Go to ⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!.
• If you’re looking for a Bible that helps you live the Word, not just read it, then grab this beautiful one I’m currently using at NIVapplicationbible.com.
• Give online therapy a try and see how it can help you become more present, more aware, and more connected to the life you want to live. Visit  BetterHelp.com/BESTOFYOU.

*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

‍

TRANSCRIPT

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm so

glad you're here with me today for this incredibly powerful and vulnerable, we get really candid in this conversation with my guest, Amber Smith. Many of you know part of Amber and her husband, Granger Smith's story, the thinkable loss of their three-year -old son River back in 2019. And if you want more of that backstory from Granger's perspective, be sure to go back and listen to my earlier conversation with him. It was episode 76 and we'll link to that in the show notes. 

‍

Amber is here today to share her side of the story, which she's writing about in her brand new book. It's called The Girl on the Bathroom Floor, held together when everything is falling apart. It comes out in just a couple of weeks and it's just such a raw and unflinching look at those moments where pain, fear, and grief seem to hit the hardest. Sometimes they're behind closed doors, they're in your car hidden in your closet or in Amber's case it's on the bathroom floor and the book is also hopeful  I mean amidst unspeakable loss. 

‍

Somehow, Amber was able to honor the pain while keeping her faith and her hope alive in the promise that no matter where you are, you are held by a God who grieves with you and offers you a way through suffering. In today's conversation, Amber and I talk about 

‍

• what life looked like before and after River's death and how her faith transformed in the aftermath,
•  how she and Granger chose each other in the midst of the grief, and 
• the very practical ways they held on to their marriage when pain looked different for each of them. 
• The faith practices that anchored her and her family through their grief, and the tender, complicated joy of welcoming their son Maverick while still holding space for ongoing sorrow. 
• And Amber and I also each share very personally about how it's complicated at times to honor grief within a family where each family member is processing loss in different ways and what it looks like to honor each person's journey and how holding space for different experiences of loss within a family doesn't drive you apart. It can actually bring you closer together. 

‍

Amber Smith is a Christ follower, a wife and mother of four. She hosts the Arise with Amber podcast and speaks at her local church and is the founder of the River Kelly Fund. She and Granger live with her children, London, Lincoln and Maverick on a small farm in central Texas. Amber's voice is tender, courageous, real, and she's also really practical. I think this conversation will meet you right where you are, whether you're on your own bathroom floor today or walking with someone who is, I'm thrilled to bring you my conversation with Amber Smith.

‍

Alison Cook (00:29.215)

I'm just so thrilled to have you here today, had such a powerful conversation with your husband, Granger. And I hate that the circumstances of life have prompted these stories. And yet I'm so grateful that you've gifted us with the benefit of wisdom through so much suffering. wanna just for the reader's sake, I wanna start by reading.

‍

Just for the listeners sake, I wanna start by reading a short note that you start the book with, because I just think it so beautifully sets the tone, Amber, for this book. This book, this beautiful book that you've written, The Girl on the Bathroom Floor, that is just such a powerful, honest story of suffering and of hope. Here's what you write. This is a book.

‍

about hope, a book about transformation even in the midst of unimaginable suffering. It's the story about discovering not just who I was, but who God created me to be. It's a story about searching for who God is and where he is in our pain. This is a book about a girl who was, about a girl who died when her son died, and about a girl who raised to new life in Christ.

‍

You have lived this Amber and I'd love to just kind of start where you start in the book you open it on the bathroom floor in a moment of absolute pain I think it was just about a year maybe 14 months after you had buried your beautiful three-year-old baby boy River He had drowned in your backyard pool with unimaginable tragedy and

‍

In this moment where you open the book you had miscarried. Is that right? Can you take us back to that moment?

‍

Amber (02:30.966)

Yeah, I started there. I think because that's where I was on most of my journey was the bathroom floor. And I wanted to start there because that was another deep layer of pain that I was brought to. But I was in such a different place mentally and spiritually and emotionally. And when I miscarried a year after we lost River, I fully had done deep work of grief. I fully came to the full trust and

‍

goodness of our sovereign God and I knew that he would bring me through this pain. knew that if he had brought me through what I had gone through, the traumatic events that led up, or that happened after the death of my son, if he could lead me through that, then I knew that he would lead me through this and I knew that there was purpose in this. So I started there because we're gonna all face suffering in this life and you might suffer more than once, which was probably a lot of our case.

‍

but that God had met me there and led me through that deep pain and I knew that he would do it again.

‍

Alison Cook (03:32.085)

It's so powerful. It's true. mean, it's, I kind of want to talk about that next. When Rivers accident happened, it's almost as if your life split understandably into before and after, right? How do you remember the texture of those days before Rivers death? How, what were you like before his death? What was your relationship with God like and then I want to touch on how that lives in your memory with who you are now and how you understand God now.

‍

Amber (04:09.218)

Yeah, when that night happened, by worldly standards, we were happy. I mean, my husband and I had a good marriage. We had three healthy kids. We lived on a little piece of land. My husband was a singing, songwriting, touring musician. He was selling out arenas. He had number one singles. We were joyful. We felt like by the world standards, like, this is awesome. Our life is great. But spiritually, I had just began seeking the Lord a year before we lost River.

‍

Alison Cook (04:16.437)

Yeah.

‍

Alison Cook (04:32.297)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

‍

Amber (04:38.99)

I wasn't raised in a Christian home. I didn't grow up with that foundation. And I just felt a pull. The Lord was drawing me in a year before. I had just started going to women's conferences and reading devotionals and doing Bible studies and going to church with my kids for the first time. And that's when our tragedy happened. And I can look back now and see that God was preparing me for what I was about to go through. Like I see that year when he was planting little pieces of scripture on my heart. He was putting women in my life who would walk me through.

‍

Alison Cook (05:00.24)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Amber (05:08.846)

this dark time, I didn't see it then, but I see it now, that he was carefully placing those people in my life and giving me bits and pieces of his word that I was gonna have to lean on a year later. And I, you're right, it's a before and after. I was a different girl before that. I was very much living of the world. We would have called ourselves cultural Christians. We would have said that we knew Jesus, but we weren't living a a surrendered life to him. I, the girl that I was died that day.

‍

by the pool with my son. But the girl that emerged through what God brought me through is a more beautiful version that I could have ever thought. And not saying that I'm beautiful, but what God did in my life was a beautiful resurrection. I mean, He saved me through the loss of our son, and I'm forever grateful.

‍

Alison Cook (05:59.135)

So your story in a lot of ways, Amber mirrors Granger, right? That that cultural that we were good people, we were doing right by the world, you know, we weren't. And then this happens, but that wasn't enough to sustain you. And I see in your eyes when you talk about that death to life experience, how real it is. 

‍

Tell us a little bit about your marriage and how, I know that the statistics are not kind to couples who lose a child. There's a way in which that, understandably, right, that incredible tragedy and the way different people cope can pull a couple apart. You and Granger looked at each other in the hospital garden and you swore to each other, we will not let this terrace apart. What did that look like for you?

‍

How did you keep that that to each other? Not just in a superficial way, right? But in a day to day when your grief is pressing in on each of you in different ways in every side, what did that look like? And I know my listeners are struggling with that in many ways. It's not just my grief, right? It's like, I also have to kind of carry my own grief, but then have to bear witness to the grief of my spouse and it's different on different days. Give us some thoughts on what that how that played out in your marriage.

‍

Amber (07:33.911)

Yeah, I've been through a lot of divorce in my life and I mean a lot. And I just remember I either thought, okay, I'm never getting married or when I get married, that's it. It's once and that's it's till death do us part. And we made that vow to each other, to each other and before God. And we meant it. And when we went out into that garden, we made that vow. We're going to choose each other. It's going to be really hard. We don't know what this is going to look like, how we're going to go home, how we're going to be a family again, how we're going to have joy again, but we're going to fight for each other and we're going to fight for our kids.

‍

And we did, and it was messy. It wasn't perfect. We both grieved very differently. Granger might be having a really, not a really good day, but a day where he was feeling some light and I would be really low and vice versa. And then you're dealing with your kids' grief on top of that. And it's just a mess. And it really is. And the only way that we were able to do it was truly just having grace for one another, knowing when to pull back and when to lean in, not getting angry.

‍

Alison Cook (08:18.196)

Yeah.

‍

Amber (08:32.79)

at the other one for how they were feeling. I wanted to look at photos and pictures of Riv every day. It made me feel so close to him, but it broke him. So I couldn't get upset because he didn't want to see a photo. I just had to understand that he was grieving in his own way and that we just did our best that we could each and every day.

‍

Alison Cook (08:50.942)

Is there any one practice or phrase or even just any one spiritual discipline that you would return to that would re-anchor you through the storms, through the messiness, whether as a family or as a couple?

‍

Amber (09:09.176)

I think for me to get to that point took a long time. This was a very long journey of grief. I cried every day for an entire year. But I think what I hold onto and what I held onto, 2019 was my most transformative year, was Proverbs 3.5, and it's trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. Because we are not God, we don't understand why things happen the way that they do this side of heaven, but we know that we can trust our Lord.

‍

And we know that because we get to know who He is as He reveals Himself to be in Scripture. And then I guess as for the grief, something that we would say instead of, how are you doing? We would say, how's your heart today? Because we know how we're doing. We're doing terrible. This is awful. But when you say, how's your heart today? We can say, you know, I'm really sad right now. Or I actually had a really good hour, you know, but I'm really missing Him. So it just allows you to answer it in a different way.

‍

Alison Cook (10:02.45)

I love that. Just a subtle shift with each other that provided the safety for honesty. Nobody had to say, I'm doing okay. You know, it was like a very real way of everybody. I would imagine through that kind of group, my family, I married into a family, Amber with a lot of loss at the get-go. My husband was a widower when I met him.

‍

with two young children. So they had lost their mom. He had lost his wife, whom he loved. I met them, I met the family about a year after this loss and we dated, we took our time because we, and one of the things I noticed is we had to create space, just like you're saying. It doesn't go away and also life continues. You don't sit in it and so.

‍

Amber (10:49.23)

Yeah.

‍

Alison Cook (10:51.53)

What I noticed coming into that, not having gone through it myself, but joining with a family that was grieving from the earliest moments, was that honesty that surfaces, that can, again, if you don't create space for it, we'll end up ripping you apart. But if you do, it brings you even closer. To this day, we all honor Lisa in our family. She's a part of the family. I never met her.

‍

Amber (11:14.925)

Yeah.

‍

Alison Cook (11:18.72)

But I have a relationship with her because she is the mother to my children. Right? And so we honor her to this day, even though I've now been in my kid's lives longer than she was. And so I think that's why, as you're saying that, I asked the question because we had practice as one of the things we would do is just assume grief. And so the question would it be, how are you feeling today? The question would be, is it small, medium or big? Right? Yeah. And so some days it's small.

‍

Amber (11:42.284)

Yeah. That's good, yeah.

‍

Alison Cook (11:47.797)

It's there, but it's small. Some days it's big. And that just allowed that baseline of, course it's going to be there. And what you said about pictures, very similar, very similar. Some folks didn't want to look at pictures. Some do. it does. And it's hard to talk about, which is what I so appreciate about your story in this book. You're not minimizing the pain by talking about God's presence in it.

‍

Amber (11:57.698)

Yeah.

‍

Alison Cook (12:16.68)

and how God does bring such unbelievable joy and intimacy and growth and healing through even unimaginable things. But it's a very nuanced thing to talk about.

‍

Amber (12:16.846)

Yeah.

‍

Amber (12:32.462)

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of why I wrote the letter in the beginning was because there are people who are, you know, we're six years down the road. We've learned a lot. But there are people who are on day one and on day one, you are in shock, you're in fog, you're so angry. You don't want to hear all the things that God has a plan for this awful thing. And I just wanted to relate to that girl because I was her or guy. You know, I was her and

‍

Alison Cook (12:55.87)

Yes.

‍

Amber (12:59.104)

it's okay to be in that place for a little bit. I just don't want them to stay stuck there. Because that's where the enemy is. And so just allowing space for that to say, is really hard and I'm walking with you and you're not alone. But when the time is right, you can do this. You can fight through this.

‍

Alison Cook (13:16.188)

Yes, and there you describe in the books, both a feeling kind of a wailing, just those moments when you're flat on your face on the bathroom floor, and also moments where you felt God's silence, where you didn't feel the hope and the redemption. Can you share with us a few of those moments and kind of in the moment what got you through it, even when the feeling wasn't there?

‍

Amber (13:46.297)

I think allowing myself to feel all of those things. I mean, I think in grief, at least for me, I was in such a state of shock and fog for an entire month. I didn't fully let go for a month. But when I came home a month later and I was all by myself, I just gutterily cried. I let out animalistic cries for my son and just allowed myself to grieve. And just giving yourself grace and space to do that really helped me.

‍

Alison Cook (13:49.077)

Yeah.

‍

Amber (14:15.702)

And going to the scriptures, because just because we feel something doesn't mean it's true. Just because I didn't feel God at a certain time didn't mean he wasn't there. But we can't know that unless we go to God's Word and unless we see that he is with us all the time. He never leaves us, never forsakes us. So just kind of going back to God's Word anytime I felt distant or the enemy coming in or lies from the world or really, really sad, I would just have to go back to the truth of what God's Word says.

‍

Alison Cook (14:43.38)

when you talk about the lies of the world, there's a couple of ways. One is through the pat answers and they're trying to push you through it. Well intended often, but very hurtful. But the other is you guys received a lot of criticism publicly, which is just insane to me. What did it feel like to live through that? You know, where you kind of on both sides of things, people don't whether they're being critical. whether they're trying too hard to be positive, how did you find safe people who knew how to hold you through whatever you were feeling?

‍

Amber (15:55.705)

I think realizing because we were in the public eye, because Granger's Music was taking off and we had a YouTube channel, I think people felt access to our lives. But that is one reason why we kept our videos up and we wanted to share because this is real life and terrible things happen and real people grieve. you're right, we were met with such criticism and it was really hard. mean, especially for a mom and a dad who deeply love our kids.

‍

Alison Cook (16:05.078)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Amber (16:25.208)

Like we would do anything for them just to have people saying the hurtful, hurtful things that they said. It just made me think, you I doubt that any of those people would have said it to a grieving mother's face. But we live in this world where we're protected and hidden behind these keyboards and don't even have a profile picture. And we just say whatever we want without a filter and without thinking. But it just made me realize that it truly shows the spiritual condition of someone's heart for them to be able to say that. And just to know that we are in a spiritual war and the enemy will do anything to break you down. And sometimes he'll use the mouth of other people. So we really had to cling to our close circle and shut out the world. If you were not in our arena and don't know us and don't know our family, then we don't have to listen to the outsiders and what their criticisms have to say.

‍

Alison Cook (17:13.758)

Again, it's not fair that you have to develop those tremendous boundaries and resilience muscles, but it is one thing that comes out of something like this is you develop those clear filters about whose voice you're going to listen to and whose you aren't.

‍

It’s just unbelievable. The other thing, Amber, that I think I want to touch on, you write about it in the book so well. Again, it's such a nuanced thing to write about. It's such a hard thing to talk about because you're so real about the grief, about the pain. I see it in your eyes now. You're not minimizing it. And yet you also write about realizing that even your grief could become an idol. 

‍

And that is just such a transparent, authentic, observation, confession. Talk to us a little bit about how you began to realize that, the nuances of that. When does it become something that we take on as sort of an idol and versus a lived expression that we see in the Bible? We see it in the Psalms. We see it in Jesus' life, right? How did you begin to understand that distinction in your own life? So powerful.

‍

Amber (18:36.61)

I think so many things can become idols in our lives. mean, our careers, our marriages, our kids, and even our grief. I think if we begin to take on something as our identity, like if I just lived my life as I'm the woman who lost a son and that's all that I ever was, that is making an idol out of my grief. And I just was grieving really hard on the bathroom floor one day and I felt in my spirit, enough, seek me.

‍

Alison Cook (18:42.006)

Yeah.

‍

Amber (19:04.374)

And I had just been, I realized that I had made my child an idol. I was seeking river so much in my pain and I desired to be with him and I longed for the life that we had. And I realized I was taking the focus off of my savior and I was just focusing it solely on my sorrow. And it was a really powerful moment for me to realize that because we do love our kids, but our kids are a gift from God. you know,

‍

Alison Cook (19:28.83)

Yeah.

‍

Amber (19:29.846)

we can't stay stuck in that grief or it will become our identity and it will become an idol in our lives. And so the Lord just revealed that to me and that was a turning point for me to arise up off the bathroom floor. Yeah, and God just did that. Yeah.

‍

Alison Cook (19:45.971)

It reminds me of the Ecclesiastes. There's a time to mourn. There's a time for joy. There's a time to dance. There's a time for tears, right? There's that, those seasons and through all of it, God is the one at the center. It also reminds me when you talk about that, how even in the mental health world, you can make a diagnosis an idol. You can make anxiety your idol. know, anything, these are, are health, helpful. These are real things that we deal with.

‍

Amber (20:10.19)

YUM

‍

Alison Cook (20:15.366)

and also they're never all of who we are. It's really powerful.

‍

Amber (20:18.786)

Yeah.

‍

Yeah, anything that takes you away from seeking and focusing on the Lord can become an idol in your life.

‍

Alison Cook (20:27.476)

Yeah. You describe Maverick's birth as I think just so beautifully as both a joy and also an ache. It was a complicated experience for you. It was a restoration, but also never a obviously a replacement. Tell us a little bit about that about your experience of honoring the joy again. We've talked a lot about the podcast about how sometimes when you've experienced great loss, it can be hard to let yourself feel joy because that loss is always right there next to it. What was that like for you?

‍

Amber (21:03.362)

Yeah, think anytime that anyone feels any sort of joy after a loss, you do feel guilt about it. You feel like, can you be laughing or how can you be smiling? How can you have joy in this moment when you just buried your child or buried your spouse or lost your job? But having Maverick was not in our earthly plan, but the Lord graciously blessed us with him. And it really was grief and joy coexisting because I was so thankful that I was given the chance to be a mom again. I was so thankful for his little life, but I was also still so sad over the loss of my son. 

‍

And he, Maverick, you we got criticized for that too. Maverick is not a replacement for River. Maverick is a beautiful new chapter in the story that God is writing for our lives. And Maverick has a purpose too. And I can't wait to see what that is, but we shouldn't be made to feel guilty for keeping on living. You know, people say I would die for my children, but will you live for them?

‍

Alison Cook (21:49.206)

Yes

‍

Amber (21:58.775)

I had a husband and two other children. You have to make the choice to keep living. And with our eyes focused on Christ, I will see River again. I will see him again in heaven. And for now, I get to have the joy of this new blessing of Maverick that I did not think that I was gonna get to have. So it's this constant pool of grief and joy. I still some days have grief and joy. I'm sorrowful, yet always rejoicing. And those can be parallel, and that's okay to both feel those in the same moment.

‍

Alison Cook (21:58.975)

Yes. I just, behalf of all of humanity, I am so sorry that anybody even ever would suggest that. Anybody who has known love knows that. And again, in my family of grief, I am in some ways that person. Am I replacing somebody? I can never replace my kid's mom. Never. I know that.

‍

They know that I could never replace my husband's love for his first wife. I know that he knows that love isn't about love is adding. It adds love. never takes away. know, love is not a zero sum game. It multiplies. And I just I think it's beautiful that you and Granger continue to experience the joy of your family.

‍

Amber (23:11.235)

Yeah.

‍

Alison Cook (23:22.292)

and of your kids even as you honor this little boy who's always a part of your family and who you will be reunited with and who will be reunited with his siblings including...

‍

Amber (23:27.288)

Yeah.

‍

Amber (23:30.69)

Yeah.

‍

Yeah, and same for you. mean, you would never wish that pain on anybody, but by the grace of God, your husband got to love again, and your kids get to have a bonus mom who loves them so much. And so it is. It's an addition. It's not a replacement. It never would be a replacement.

‍

Alison Cook (23:39.658)

No!

‍

Alison Cook (23:45.948)

Exactly.

‍

Alison Cook (23:51.241)

It's never a replacement. just drives me crazy. I, I've received a little bit of, you know, people will say to me, how, how, how does it feel to be second? I'm like, I'm not second. That's not, it's not a, you don't understand. and it's only something God can fully, it's something you can only fully comprehend in the spirit, right? That God weaves.

‍

healing and he weaves new life and he weaves new love out of what's broken and never replaces but somehow mysteriously through the goodness of God there's new graces there's new joys his mercies are new every morning and so thank you for letting me just as I've watched your story a little bit I've I've learned and and benefited from hearing some of you reading your book from my own story as well and I I know so many people

‍

are going to benefit because life is complicated. Everybody's had loss on some level.

‍

Amber (24:55.02)

If you haven't, you will, it's coming. It's just something as humans we all share is the suffering in this world, but we also share the hope that we have.

‍

Alison Cook (25:02.164)

Yes. I want to just close, Amber, in your final chapter, you write five years out. If you could speak to the woman who's listening, who's still on her own bathroom floor today, what would you want her to know?

‍

Amber (25:23.502)

that that bathroom floor moment is not the end of your story. That sometimes that can be the beginning of something really, really incredible. And that she's never alone. That God isn't finished yet. That there's so much life left to live. just that I am so sorry for whatever he or she is facing. And that it's okay to feel those things, but just don't stay stuck in that place. Because there is so much more.

‍

And I would just encourage her when the time is right to get up off the floor and fight and choose to keep living, but keep your eyes on Christ.

‍

Alison Cook (25:49.332)

Yes.

‍

Alison Cook (25:55.646)

Yeah, yes, I love that. Choose to keep living and keep your eyes on Christ. It's the only way and it's a way that is good and it's not always easy but it is so good and I'm just so grateful for you for sharing again this beautiful story with us. The Girl on the Bathroom Floor by Amber

‍

Emily Smith, it's available wherever you get books. Amber, where can my listeners find you if they want to connect with you and learn more about your story besides the book?

‍

Amber (26:29.888)

If you want to connect, I'm usually always on Instagram. I love chatting with people through Messenger and helping people through the hard parts of their life. It's at Amber Emily Smith. And then my website is arisewithamber.com.

‍

Alison Cook (26:41.962)

That's beautiful. Thanks Amber. Thanks so much for joining us today.

‍

Amber (26:46.232)

Thank you so much.

‍

When the world feels on fire, how do our souls find rest in God alone?

‍

This week’s two-part episode is close to my heart. In the wake of recent violence, I first pause to reflect on what it means to choose love in an age when outrage feels easier.

‍

From there, I turn to a conversation with my friend and mentor, Dr. Stephen Macchia. Steve has spent decades guiding people into deeper intimacy with God through practices of silence, prayer, and community. Together we explore the barriers distraction creates, why being truly listened to is so healing, and how slowing down opens space for God’s presence in our lives.

‍

This episode is an invitation to lay down outrage, pick up compassion, and step into the quiet spaces where God does His best work.

📚 Books you wont want to miss from Dr. Steven Macchia:

• ⁠Praying the Parables of Jesus by Dr. Steven Macchia⁠
• ⁠Crafting a Rule of Life by Dr. Steven Macchia⁠

‍

📚 Also mentioned: 

The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt

‍

Here are some other episodes you might like :

⁠Episode 75: ⁠Your Secret Weapon Against Stress & Anxiety - How to Transform Your Mind Through the Power of Prayer

⁠Episode 88⁠: What to Do When Change Stirs up Anxiety, Uncertainty, or Confusion

⁠

💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

‍

Thanks to our Sponsors!

• Go to ⁠⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
• Better sleep starts today! Get a birch mattress and test it out for 100 nights risk-free PLUS a discount for being a listener by visiting ⁠birchliving.com/BESTOFYOU⁠.
• If you’re looking for a Bible that helps you live the Word, not just read it, then grab this beautiful one I’m currently using at ⁠NIVapplicationbible.com⁠.
• Get 50% off a nightguard at checkout when you code BESTOFYOU at ⁠shopremi.com/BESTOFYOU⁠
• Check out cozyearth.com and use code BESTOFYOU to get 45% off. Sleep cooler, lounge lighter, and embrace your cozy days with Cozy Earth.
• Head to moshlife.com/BESTOFYOU to save 20% off plus FREE shipping on the Best sellers Trial Pack or theEW plant-based trial pack. 

*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

‍

Transcript:

‍

Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm so glad you're here with me this week because this conversation is a really special one for me personally, and I also think it's one that's going to minister to you especially as we are dealing with so many hard things right now in our country.

‍

Before we dive in, I do wanna pause and acknowledge the complicated emotions so many of us are carrying after the tragic killing of Charlie Kirk last week. We've seen far too many violent acts in recent years on school campuses, in public spaces, in universities, and it's absolutely tragic. Real people are hurting in your lives, in my life. Maybe people are hurting for different reasons, but people are hurting.

‍

And moments like these remind me that our work, yours and mine, as soul menders really matters. Our work on the podcast here together and everything I do is to help you cultivate a healthy soul, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. And as we become healthy souls, you and me together in partnership with God Spirit, we become what this world needs. Changing our world out there starts with us.

‍

It starts with our inner lives. It starts with every single one of us doing our part to bring more goodness, more kindness, more real love into the deepest corners of our souls so that we can spill that love out into our families, our neighborhoods, and our world. Part of why I've taken some time to gather my thoughts and figure out how I want to respond and why I almost shy away from political takes online is because I needed to have these conversations in my real life first.

‍

There is absolutely no substitute for the hard conversations we need to have with each other in our embodied lives. And as I've had those conversations this past week, it's led me to two pieces of wisdom or insights that I'm trying to put into practice in my own life and I wanted to share them with you, especially as it relates to this work of soul mending. The first one is simple. We have to learn how to be people of love. We have to learn how to love people who see the world differently than we do. As followers of Jesus, we don't actually have a choice.

‍

It's baseline. We have to be people of love. A healthy soul is a soul filled with love and it's hard to love Someone who's beliefs or viewpoints or lifestyler decisions or behaviors or actions feel like a threat. I get it That's real and I don't want to minimize what you're feeling what I'm feeling in any way But Jesus does it give us another option? We have to learn to become people of love this past Sunday Our pastor spoke on the parable of the Good Samaritan and it felt exactly Right to my soul when the man in that parable asks Jesus who is my

‍

First, try this with me for just a moment. Think of someone who is hard for you to love. It might be that person with a yard sign that makes your blood boil or someone you just had an interaction with at work or at your kid's school or even in a friend group or even in your church community. Maybe picture them right now as you're listening and just notice what you notice inside your soul as you think of them. You might notice that some part of you bristles or feels resentment or that twinge of envy or anger or frustration or a feeling of injustice.

‍

Maybe even a part of you feels hatred. I hate that person, they've hurt me. Listen, that feeling is most likely there for good reason and I don't want you to shame yourself for what you notice, but I do want you to pause for a moment and recognize this is where the love of God starts, is when you invite God's love into the places that are feeling that anger, that resentment, that frustration, that bristle, that even that hatred inside your own soul first.

‍

You might even pray in that moment, "God, this part of me so angry, so threatened, so resentful, please hold even that part of me with your love. Because here's the thing, first John 419 says it perfectly. We love because God first loved us. It starts inside us. I'm not asking you to put yourself in harm's way, to debate or agree or to do something you don't feel in good conscience you can do, but we do have to cultivate a loving posture in our own souls.

‍

And it starts by noticing those moments of hatred, of anger, of unforgiveness, of harboring resentments inside our own souls first. Secondly, and this one's more practical, but it's important to me and I want to speak to it. It's where I was the most rattled through these events. I want us to prioritize our real embodied lives over online outrage. And I want us to help our kids do this too. We used to be able to disagree without rage.

‍

I remember a time before the internet, before social media, when we could have debates and disagreements and discussions without rage. I'm guessing if you're closer to my age listening to this, you remember those times too. I grew up in a very a very conservative state, what we think of now as a red state, a Christian family, and I went to a very liberal secular Ivy League college clear across the country in a different part of the country where most people thought very differently than I did. This was years ago. And guess what we did in those days, pre -social media, pre -internet? We had conversations. We had coffee together. We debated in classrooms and we could do that during that time without hating each other,

‍

without labeling each other as the problem. I remember vividly in one class I held a very different perspective than almost everyone else in the class and you know what? None of us left the class hating each other. I think my perspective challenged some people. 

‍

They listened to me and I in turn gave them the courtesy of listening to them. We learned from each other and we stayed friends and neighbors all within one very small embodied community. We came together in a way that I rarely see happening in this day and age. What made me think of that memory is I was in all honesty looking forward to a debate that was scheduled to be held this week on my alma mater on the campus where I went to college back in the day before social media. It was between Charlie Kirk and Hassan Piker, two men who come from completely different worldviews, different sides of the political spectrum, different ideologies, different belief systems. And I was looking forward to it because I learned from listening to people with different worldviews, listening to people who think differently, almost always when I listen to someone whose viewpoint is different

‍

from mine, somewhere inside my soul, I can say that's a good point. I may not agree with their conclusion, but I might understand where they're coming from. And you know what that does inside of me? It promotes compassion, a shared sense of humanity, humility. It makes me hold my own viewpoint with a softened grip, and that humility is good for my soul. I recognize that while I have certain convictions, I am not God. Ultimately, only God sees the whole picture, the full picture, who accounts for all of humanity. And I honestly believe with all of my heart that the internet, the deep recesses of the internet and social media are tearing us apart. They're preying upon the worst parts of our souls. I'm not saying there's no good online, there is. But there's a lot of darkness out there.

‍

Rage gets rewarded online. It becomes addictive. I see it in myself. It lights up a part of our brain and I rebuke it on behalf of all of us in the name of Jesus. It's a lot harder to hate someone that you disagree within your real embodied life. You have elections. You vote against people. You debate vigorously in the town square. You might see that person in the grocery store line and greet them, or you might sit next to church with them, and you may not see the world exactly as they do, but you're part of the same embodied community. 

‍

That's where we're supposed to work this stuff out, not in comment sections. So my second challenge for you and for me today is to make sure we are processing these events, these very challenging topics and events with people in our real lives before turning to social media and most of all I want you to be working with your kids to do this too. Social media relationships are not real. They are not two -way. We are passively taking in data and not engaging with real embodied people. We know from the research what this is doing to our young kids. For resources on how to get your kids offline, check out The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Hyatt. We are trying to get him on the podcast because he has a new book coming out specifically for kids. But I believe the work that he is doing is profound and important to this present time. If you do use the internet or social media, as I do, make sure it's helping you grow compassion and humility, not to foster rage.

‍

And then most importantly, we all have to ask ourselves, where are there people in my real embodied life that I disagree with? How can I take a step toward that person in love? Where am I gathering to talk with people who don't always think exactly like I do and who help hold me accountable to compassion, to justice, to mercy, and to love. We are called to love people in our embodied lives and not only people who are just like us. We are called to love people who are different from us, not only for their sakes, but also for our own souls. 

‍

Remember, 1 John 4 19 says it this way, "We love because he first loved us." I pray you receive God's love today in the deepest parts of your soul because it is my belief that it is out of that love you have received from God that you will be able to make a difference and become a person of love in this broken world. My hope is that this conversation you're about to hear will help us do just that. 

***

My guest is Dr. Stephen Macchia, someone I consider a spiritual mentor and guide. Years ago, I went through a two-year program he designed called the Emmaus Experience, and I can honestly say it was one of the most profound vocational callings of my adult life. It shaped how I understand my own work as a therapist, writer, and follower of Jesus.

Steve is the founder and president of Leadership Transformations, a ministry that exists to cultivate vibrant spirituality and attentive discernment among Christian leaders and teams. He’s spent decades inviting people into the deep work of spiritual formation—away from hustle, distraction, and noise, and toward rhythms of prayer, community, silence, and rest.

In our conversation today, we talk about:

• Why distraction is one of the greatest barriers to intimacy with God and with one another.
  
  
• How silence and attentive listening can transform our relationships.
  
  
• The power of spiritual companionship and why every soul needs both solitude and community.
  
  
• And we’ll explore Steve’s newest book, Praying the Parables of Jesus, which invites us to engage scripture in a slower, more contemplative way.
  
  

If you’ve ever longed for a deeper intimacy with God, if you’ve felt the pull of hurry and noise and wondered how to create more space for your soul to breathe, this episode will meet you right there.

I cannot wait for you to hear from Steve. His words always leave me a little quieter, a little more grounded, and a lot more aware of God’s presence in my life.

So let’s dive into this conversation with my friend and mentor, Dr. Stephen Macchia.

***

‍

- Well, I'm just so thrilled to have you here with this time with you today,

‍

Steve, you've played such your work and your presence in your life has played such

‍

an extremely important role in my own life. We'll get into that a little bit more

‍

throughout our conversation. But I want to start just right where the listener is,

‍

the person tuning in. We talk a lot about the intersection of faith and mental

‍

health on the podcast. And one of your sayings that I always think of it,

‍

always stuck with me is this idea that you, we emphasize different syllables.

‍

Did I quote you? You say that so perfectly. - That's right, that's right. - Yeah,

‍

and-- - That's right, this syllable has to be on the right. - Yes, and so we're not

‍

working apart from one another. we're emphasizing different syllables and you're

‍

emphasizing this spirit part, the soul formation,

‍

which I love. And again, was game changing for me in terms of how I viewed my

‍

work as a therapist. I'd love to just start right here and now with what are you

‍

seeing as the biggest barrier that keeps us from experiencing this deep loving

‍

intimacy that we so long to have with God?

‍

- Yeah, I think it's summarized in one word. Then the one word would be distraction.

‍

The biggest barrier to intimacy, whether it's a human relationship or a relationship

‍

with God, is that our eyes are focused elsewhere, and that's what distraction does.

‍

It holds our eyes elsewhere. My wife Ruth was a preschool teacher for many years,

‍

and she would get down on her hands and knees and say to the children, "I need to

‍

see your eyes, I need to see your eyes." And when she could see their eyes, then

‍

she knew that she had their attention. She'll say that to me. Steve,

‍

I need to see your eyes. And I know exactly what she's saying because I'm

‍

distracted. I'm trying to do multiple things and I'm not paying attention to her.

‍

And so I think when we're distracted, we're totally unable to focus on God or each

‍

other. - That is so, such a great summary and there are so many distractions ever

‍

increasing in our day -to -day lives. I sometimes look back with a sort of longing

‍

on the pre -internet era, let alone the pre -social media era,

‍

the pre -iPhone era, you know, it's, we weren't, it was sometimes a little bit

‍

easier to keep some of that clutter of noise out of our lives, even though it's

‍

always been hard, but that certainly is added to it.

‍

Well, the promise of social media of all kinds is, and the internet and everything

‍

that's available to us today is that the promise was that it would make our lives

‍

simpler and slower, and it did the opposite. It made our lives complex and faster.

‍

Yes. And both of those are against the work of the soul. Okay.

‍

Okay. I love it. Against the work of the soul. So let's go back a little bit,

‍

Steve, because your story's so interesting. You started out in ministry. You built

‍

some pretty amazing things in New England, where, You know, the soil is a little

‍

rockier in some ways for this work of spiritual formation of faith practices.

‍

Although I tend to think of it also as incredibly rich. There's a little bit of

‍

both and there, as you and I both know. But at some point, something shifted for

‍

you. You were maybe following, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but maybe

‍

a more traditional ministry leader path. Something drew you deeper into that work of

‍

spiritual formation where you emphasize a whole different aspect of soul care than

‍

most of us are familiar with. Can you take us back to that moment and what

‍

prompted that change?

‍

Well, after about 20 years of what I would call more traditional ministry, I was

‍

working in a church for 11 years on a pastoral staff was great, great experience,

‍

all of it was wonderful. And then I was in charge of a group called Vision New

‍

England, which is a multi -denominational multi -administry network of folks around our

‍

sixth state region. And it was all good. Everything was great. But I was really

‍

trying to do so much, And I was pushing everyone around me to accomplish and you

‍

know, live out that sort of that Protestant work ethic, you know, we'd rather burn

‍

out than rust out. We'd rather be as busy as possible and accomplish great things

‍

and set goals and go and accomplish. No matter who was in a way,

‍

we can just sort of toss them to the side and get our goals accomplished. And I

‍

realized that there was something going on inside of me that wasn't very healthy.

‍

And I said to a friend who I trusted, I said, I'm looking to talk to someone that

‍

doesn't want something from me. I need a neutral listening ear and voice.

‍

And that's long story short, is when I started spiritual direction. I met this

‍

Episcopal monk who came into my office with blue jean overalls and a t -shirt and

‍

open -toe sandals and I was in this professional mode of dressing up and every hair

‍

in the place kind of thing. And as soon as he opened his mouth, I knew he had

‍

something that I desired. He had a slower pace.

‍

He had a tentative countenance. He had a way of being with God and with me that

‍

was profound. It was mysterious and beautiful. And that began a 35 + year

‍

relationship in direction with the same person who I see on a regular basis as my

‍

spiritual guide, my spiritual companion. So I would say single -handedly getting

‍

engaged in spiritual direction with a trusted companion, trained and trusted companion

‍

was the turning point for me. And everything about my life,

‍

I would say, has changed as a result, some instantly and some more long term in

‍

terms of a chipping away. But that experience of having a companion who was walking

‍

with God and encouraging me to do likewise was definitely the catalyst for everything

‍

since. And so you started this ministry called leadership transformations.

‍

That was one of the things that flowed out of this pivot in your own life.

‍

And it's marked, as I understand it, by some key components of the spiritual life

‍

that go all the way back. They're not new, they're ancient, but in many ways have

‍

gotten lost in our modern, as you're saying, kind of hustle culture that seeps into

‍

the church, what are some of those key features? And I know from it,

‍

I know from my own personal experience and we'll get into that. But from your

‍

vantage point, this, you've, you've, you've talked about the word slow, attentiveness,

‍

being with companionship. You know, it seems like from that came this ministry.

‍

What are the key components, the key foundational pillars that you're trying to pull

‍

lovers of Jesus into and away from this more kind of hustle,

‍

trying to get things done, trying to do good things for God mentality.

‍

It's a great question. And I would say that the number one spiritual practice that

‍

we're all desperate it for, frankly, is what I would call spaciousness,

‍

a spaciousness with God. In other words, finding the time and creating the space to

‍

have unhurried, uncluttered, unhindered time for the sake of your soul,

‍

which would be your walk with God, your relationship with God. So a prayer closet

‍

experience is something that's very important that I strongly urge and encourage

‍

everyone who is seeking to walk with God and in community to have.

‍

It was Bonhoeffer who said, you know, the one who loves to be with others, be

‍

careful because you need some time alone and be careful if you're only wanting to

‍

be alone. You need time together. So it's with aloneness and a community and it's a

‍

community and contemplation, another way to put it. So we learn how to pray, but we

‍

learn how to relate to one another. And that's really where you excel is,

‍

and that's where these two disciplines are combined, formation and healthy

‍

relationships, because our experience with God is gonna be as deep as we can go

‍

relationally. And if we're unable to go deep relationally with each other,

‍

we're not going to go deep with God. But if we're able to go deep with God,

‍

that'll help us to embrace the reality of who we are as individuals seeking to have

‍

meaningful relationships with others. So it is hand in glove, Allison,

‍

but if I were to put the emphasis on a particular syllable there, it would be soul

‍

care, the care and nurture of one's soul. - Yeah. - And there is nothing more

‍

important than that. And yet, because we live distracted lives, we put everything

‍

else in front of that.

‍

- So I wanna share a little bit here about how I experienced that, how our paths

‍

crossed. And there's so much that came out of these two years. And we're going to

‍

talk about this for your podcast. So I'll send my listeners over to hear more of

‍

the story on your podcast. But just at that intersection of I love how you're

‍

saying community and contemplation, the both and the aloneness and the togetherness,

‍

neither of which we're very good at. So I came into your world,

‍

this ministry that you're doing through a two -year retreat program. There were

‍

quarterly retreats. And the rhythm that was just so life -changing for me,

‍

there were silent portions of it where we would have silent meals. We would be with

‍

each other sitting at the breakfast table, but not speaking.

‍

- It is so powerful. If you've never done this, it is such a unique way to be

‍

with other humans with the absence of all the noise and the words. We would have

‍

time alone where we would literally be in our prayer closets or off on a walk.

‍

So there was built -in time for that kind of aloneness. There was aloneness together.

‍

And then there were structured times where we would share our stories.

‍

And what I loved about that, Steve, is the structure. There was an order to it.

‍

We would each get a certain amount of time, maybe 10 minutes, I don't remember

‍

exactly, with themes. And over the course of four quarterly retreats,

‍

you could get pretty deep in what you shared. And so for the first one, I think

‍

we told our spiritual autobiography sort of in 10 minutes So you have to kind of

‍

do the work of looking back and what was so powerful and I'm I'm saying this for

‍

the benefit of the listener because I've never Experienced anything like this was

‍

more powerful than therapy there dare I say I mean it was so powerful So I I just

‍

that's that's the passion in my voice about this. I would share my story and at

‍

the end of it, silence. We put a timer on and we would sit with my story or

‍

whoever was sharing their story in silence, holding it. And Steve,

‍

we don't do that. Usually we share our story and immediately everybody jumps in to

‍

fix it, to give advice about it, to interpret it, to tell us we shouldn't feel

‍

that way. All we did was sit and hold the story. At first it was very

‍

uncomfortable for me. That first, I was like, what is happening? But over time,

‍

the rhythms, and then there were more rhythms. You know, there was, we can get into

‍

that, but because then we would take another round where people would reflect back

‍

verbatim words that they heard you say without interpreting,

‍

without giving advice, just saying I heard you say lonely four times.

‍

And that is just an unbelievable, from a psychological perspective, an attachment

‍

perspective to feel that secure holding was life changing for me.

‍

And so I share that with you both to just honor and validate what you and

‍

thousands of people already know about how the power in this work, but it was so

‍

different than anything I'd ever encountered in a small group, even in discipleship

‍

and mentorship. And I guess I want to ask you,

‍

you know, how I'm not even sure what my question is other than to say, I think we

‍

need this. I think what you're doing speaks to something so deeply inside of us

‍

that need to be seen and held in a very slow,

‍

methodical, kind of orderly way that we just often don't encounter. Well,

‍

when you think about the most intimate moments of life, very few words are spoken.

‍

Yes. It's presence. It's an embrace. It's eye to eye contact.

‍

I mean, we fall in love through the eyes. We love another through the eyes.

‍

And when we can't see each other's eyes or when we see each other's eyes as sad

‍

or disappointed or tearful or turning away, all we need to do is just be present

‍

with the other. And it's in that presence that the mysterious work of healing and

‍

intimacy with God occurs. And we think it needs to be chock -full of words.

‍

And it actually doesn't. And what your testimony is, is the testimony of many others

‍

who have gone through our programs. People will say, "I've never been listened to

‍

like that in my life. Now, think about the power of that statement. I've never been

‍

listened to like that in my life. If we do one thing in this world to change the

‍

trajectory of this craziness that we're in, it would be, I think, around

‍

attentiveness, around listening. And so I talk about it and write about pure

‍

listening and you've described it. It's, you don't fix a person,

‍

you don't correct a person, you don't compare your story, you don't one -up the

‍

other person's story. You're simply there. And if you're going to say anything,

‍

say exactly what they said. Don't interpret. Because when we begin to interpret,

‍

then the person who hasn't been properly listen to is saying to themselves, they

‍

didn't listen to me. That's not what I said. And the bold and courageous will say

‍

that. They'll give voice to that. But many will just smile and, you know, tolerate

‍

it, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we should only speak when we're invited to

‍

speak in those moments. The rhythm of that of that practice I took with me into

‍

relationships,

‍

even as my work as a therapist, because there was a time, I think the last round

‍

was you can give encouragement. You know, the last round was maybe share a way in

‍

which others touched something about me, or here's what it made me think about,

‍

where we might get into some of that. But it's

‍

after. We've given the fullness of our attention to the story. Yeah.

‍

And to the person, the person's story, which is precious and it's unique and it's,

‍

it may be difficult, it may be hard, it may be painful, but it still has,

‍

you know, the work of God on it and he wants to heal every ounce of our pain.

‍

Yes, if we let it and in those settings, that's where a lot of healing occurs So

‍

Steve for the listener who's hearing this and maybe hasn't Been a part of such a

‍

community and can't imagine You know, maybe they can't for whatever reason Take the

‍

time to join one or their churches don't offer something so they're listening going

‍

I want that how do I find it. What would you say might a couple of steps be

‍

little both little tiny steps we can do just in our own lives and even bigger

‍

steps that we can take to begin to bring this kind of listening and slowness into

‍

our lives? It's a great question because experientially it's rare these days and what

‍

we're trying to do is we're trying to push that rock up a hill, if you will, and

‍

knowing that everything about the busyness and the noisiness and the confusion of our

‍

world is distracting us and keeping us from these rich encounters with God and with

‍

each other. But if we can at least be a catalyst for saying something like,

‍

could we just pause for a moment and not dive into the conversation yet. Like

‍

imagine if we were to just, let's take a minute of silence. - Yeah. - We want to

‍

be together, but let's just have a minute of silence. I encourage teams and

‍

individuals and couples and small groups tie the time that you're together in

‍

silence. So if you're together for 60 minutes, that's an hour long session.

‍

Take five or six minutes and just be together in silence. It will dramatically and

‍

radically change the experience that you have when you start talking to each other

‍

radically. I'll say the boards that are coming in. You're coming in from your busy

‍

workdays and you're huffing and puffing to get here and you've just had a quick

‍

meal and You had to deal with your kid's homework assignment, you know, whatever it

‍

is that you're coming in with. Let's just settle together into a common space where

‍

we can listen to God and each other and it comes through silence. It comes through

‍

that crucible of transformation, which is silence and solitude. But it's dramatic for

‍

both the alone space and my per closet and my communal space with others and we're

‍

not doing either very well. Yes. I love it's the both and it's not just because

‍

yes, it's not just spend more time alone. And I love that. I mean,

‍

you could even do that with a friend or with your spouse or at the dinner table,

‍

say we're going to sit in silence before we start dinner. You know,

‍

we say the grace and then we all are, we sit, we practice sitting in silence for

‍

a minute to just let our, let our bodies settle. Right. I bet that changes the

‍

nature of the dinner conversation. It does. It does. I've seen it over and over

‍

again. I've been on retreats with people I don't even know, never met. And for the

‍

whole weekend, I'm not talking, saying a word to them. But by the time the thing

‍

ends, I feel like hugging them because I've so enjoyed the time together.

‍

And we haven't said a word. But that's how the Spirit of God works.

‍

He works mysteriously. He works quietly,

‍

secretively at times, you know, and then he makes some pops out makes himself known.

‍

Yes. And yeah, I just I think we were too much of in a fix it mode for

‍

everything, including our relationships. There's a form of humility in it,

‍

right? We where we're kind of setting aside our left brain in our words,

‍

our desire to kind of setting that aside and recognizing just the presence Read

‍

g I love what you said there was another thing I wanted to grab on to you said

‍

you might say to a friend I don't want to jump into conversation Can I share this

‍

with you almost labeling it for someone? Yeah. Yeah, can I just share this with

‍

you? And would you be willing to just hold it with me? Oh

‍

Very good, that's a very simple thing you could do to just say it can we just

‍

maybe even begin with silence and then kind of just share something with you.

‍

I'm not looking to be fixed or corrected or changed. That Ruth will say to me,

‍

"Steve, I just want you to listen to me. I don't want to. I'm not asking you to

‍

fix me. I'm asking you to listen to me." Yeah. Yes.

‍

Steve. I think we need to learn how to listen. Yes, all the way back to learn how

‍

to listen, which means we can't be distracted. We have to have souls that can be

‍

still with one another as someone who practices stillness and solitude.

‍

I'm curious, what's one practice that you personally return to over and over when

‍

your own soul feels dry or far from God or distracted. What one practice re -anchors

‍

you time and again? Without a doubt, it would be simple breath prayers and probably

‍

my favorite one is Psalm 62 verse 1. "My soul finds rest in God alone.

‍

Seven words that have changed my life. My soul finds rest in God alone.

‍

It doesn't find rest in this world. It doesn't find rest in even relationships as

‍

good as they may be. It doesn't find my, I don't find rest in work. Everything

‍

else is adrenaline, but when I can find a space to have Sabbath moments.

‍

I'm just using a simple breath part to get me to that space, to get me out of

‍

the distracted space and into the focused and attentive space that's uncluttered.

‍

And, you know, that's hard to get to. So I'll just very simply just say,

‍

"Oh, Lord, my soul, my soul, my soul. "Oh, find rest in God alone," and I kind of

‍

speak to my soul in that regard or give voice. It's interesting in the various

‍

translations, it'll go, "My soul finds rest in God alone," or "My soul,

‍

comma, find rest in God alone," or "Truly,

‍

my soul finds rest in God alone. It's nuanced ever so slightly,

‍

but each has a power to it. Yeah. So I'm either commanding my soul,

‍

just slow down and rest. Yeah. Or I'm reminding myself of the comfort of the

‍

presence of God in the midst of crazy, full, full to overflowing lives.

‍

I feel that when you say that in my body, there's something, when you say breath,

‍

right? There's a whole body response to that, right? That we feel deep.

‍

And again, I think for so many of us,

‍

and I don't, I think doctrine is important. I think right thinking is really

‍

important. And when we're so bent in this sort of thinking relationship with God,

‍

it's new to experience that feeling of what you just said,

‍

which is a lived, a holistic experience of my soul. You drop down into your body.

‍

- Right. - Right, that's incredible. - And to use the breath prayer,

‍

it's sort of like breathe in the breath of life and breathe out the anxieties and

‍

the frustrations and then breathe in the joy of the Lord and breathe out everything

‍

that's bothering you and consuming you. So it's very simple,

‍

choose your own, but for me those little seven words in Psalm 62 have been,

‍

they've been life changer for me in many - Yeah. - Very simple. And then I can get

‍

into the word and then I can pray. That's the other thing that I learned from this

‍

Episcopal monk friend of mine. He taught me how to pray. And basically,

‍

don't do all the talking. Figure out a way to let God do the majority of the

‍

talking in your prayer so that you're doing less of the talking. So much of the

‍

time we're thinking about our prayers in terms of what we articulate, and oftentimes

‍

it's not what we're articulating, it's how our soul is being prepared to receive the

‍

gift from God, His Word, His love, His grace, His kindness, His forgiveness,

‍

the very things that God loves to give to all of us as his beloved children.

‍

It's a two -way conversation. Yeah, yeah.

‍

to chat with trusted people, but when it comes to real issues, complicated challenges

‍

that we face in our lives, sometimes we need more than casual advice. We need to

‍

talk with someone who is trained to help us, and that's where BetterHelp comes in.

‍

Therapy has been such a game changer for me personally because I know I'm talking

‍

with someone who's actually credentialed and focused on helping me grow. And with

‍

BetterHelp, you don't have to spend weeks hunting for the right fit. You've been

‍

matching people to licensed therapists for over 10 years with a 4 .9 rating from

‍

more than 1 .7 million reviews. And if your first match isn't the right one, you

‍

can switch at any time for no extra cost. As the largest online therapy provider in

‍

the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse

‍

variety of expertise. Find the one with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10 % off their

‍

first month at BetterHelp .com /Best of You. That's BetterHelp, H -E -L -P .com /Best of

‍

You.

‍

This leads us, Steve, right into this brand new book. It's beautiful. I was just

‍

looking through my copy. It's called Praying the Parables of Jesus,

‍

and it's an invitation, really for readers to engage scripture,

‍

prayer in this more contemplative way. So tell us a little bit about what prompted

‍

the book and how it leads people in this way of not just saying more words to

‍

God, but really being with God in all of we are. Yeah,

‍

it's that's a great summary. It's a it's a desire of our heart of our hearts as

‍

Sue Skinner, my artist friend and I collaborate on this. She's she was the visual

‍

person. I was the word person. And we have this dream together of bringing the

‍

parables of Jesus to life. There are 40 plus or minus parables.

‍

So we're featuring 40 that we think is the sort of the focal point of Jesus'

‍

simple little stories that so often we think of in childhood, you know, we think

‍

that all children would like these stories. But the more I spend time in each of

‍

the parables, the more I realize, oh my goodness, God is so serious about his

‍

kingdom that every single one of the 40 parables point to the kingdom.

‍

It's all about the kingdom of heaven. And there's a picture, there's a simile for

‍

every single one. The kingdom of heaven is like and fill in the blank and that's

‍

where Jesus excelled. He was basically explaining the here and now and the future

‍

kingdom that we're invited to participate with him. He was so serious about the

‍

kingdom that that's all he referenced and all 40 if you were to look at in terms

‍

of the main theme. It was all about being with him now and forever.

‍

And he was really speaking against the religious leaders of the day who were putting

‍

rules and regulations out that barely anyone could keep up with. And Jesus came to

‍

set people free. He came to give them life and joy in their walk with God and

‍

their delight with one another. So again, it's that vertical horizontal thing coming

‍

together in each of the parables. These parables are amazing, absolutely incredible.

‍

They stand alone, there's contrast, there's a simple story that goes with it,

‍

but it really penetrates the heart. And so what we've done is we've taken two very

‍

ancient spiritual practices called Lectio Divina and Visio Divina and brought them

‍

into each of the parables by way of the message, by the way, it's Eugene Peterson's

‍

rewrite of the entirety of the scriptures and how He wrote out the parables,

‍

so we're pulling from that. We dedicated the book to him because he's one of our

‍

spiritual heroes.

‍

And then it's just an invitation to read the parable perfectly,

‍

reflectively, and take a look at this visual that may help you pray the parable

‍

when you see how an artist has conveyed a part of that parable for you.

‍

- That's beautiful, I love it. It's-- - A deep dive. - Yes. - But it's,

‍

yeah, invitation. - It's an invitation, again, to everything we're kind of talking

‍

about to enter in with our whole selves.

‍

Again, not just our thinking brains or not just our, our souls that are distressed,

‍

you know, but to really, I remember as part of the Emmaus group that I did with

‍

you, you, one of the assigned readings was, I think it's called Eat This Book by

‍

Eugene Peterson. And that book itself is such a great book,

‍

but it's, it does a lot of what you're, it invites you into a holistic experience

‍

of scripture that again many of us haven't just when you when you taste it it's

‍

like oh but it's hard to even describe because you're still just marinating in

‍

scripture but it's it's kind of from this more um I don't even you know it's hard

‍

to put words on it but from this more contemplative space where it dwells within

‍

you, which again is maturity, you know, I think sometimes we think maturity ends at

‍

the head as opposed to bringing us deeper into our whole bodies.

‍

- Totally. And yeah, lektio and visio in its simplest form is the repetitive read of

‍

the same passage of scripture. So you're looking at this parable and you're reading

‍

it several times. You're not, you're not jumping ahead, you're not looking around the

‍

parable, you're diving into that parable and seeing what God has for you.

‍

And every time I've used electio with groups and we go out for an hour by

‍

ourselves and we sit in a particular passage of scripture and come back into the

‍

circle, there's never been a repeated store in that circle.

‍

Everyone discovers something that's for them. That's amazing. That God gave to them.

‍

That's amazing. And so that's what Lectio and Visio really provide for us as hungry

‍

souls wanting to know more about the heart of God. And you can follow this Lectio

‍

pattern anywhere in the biblical text, not just the parables. - One other resource,

‍

before we close, that I want to shout out to my listeners, 'cause I just think

‍

it's such a helpful resource. It's your book called "Crafting a Rule of Life,"

‍

which came out, I don't know when, several years ago, but I know so many people

‍

who've gone through it because it teaches, the book shows, it explains these

‍

different practices like you're describing here that are new to some people. But then

‍

the back part of the book takes you back creating your own rule of life, which has

‍

nothing to do with sort of a rule. It's a way of leaning into,

‍

I think, who's the quote, the unforced rhythms of grace? That's another one I

‍

learned from Emmaus. Who said that? - Yep, that's a Willard. That's a Dallas Willard.

‍

- Dallas Willard, the unforced rhythms of grace where we put ourselves in the path

‍

of these encounters with God. Could you just tell us a little bit about crafting a

‍

rule of life and how that is another way that we can scaffold these encounters with

‍

God? - Yeah, first of all, we correct myself. Unforced Rhythms of Grace is Eugene

‍

Peterson's interpretation of the passage in Matthew. Willard would say we need to

‍

learn the sort of the unhurried way of eliminating hurry,

‍

basically, from our lives. So anyway, just to correct for those who knew better and

‍

are listening to my voice on Um, yeah, it's,

‍

it's, um, the rule of life has nothing, as you said, has nothing to do with rules

‍

and regulations. It is all about a way of life and a way of life is either going

‍

to be something that's, that's toward God and his purposes for our life,

‍

or it's going to be wandering on our own. And I like that imagery of the vine

‍

and, um, a healthy vine needs a trellis from which it grows and blossoms and

‍

flourishes. If a vine does not have a trellis, it ends up wandering on the ground

‍

and it does not produce the fruit that it's supposed to. In fact, God called the

‍

people of God in the Old Testament at one point, "Wandering vine." You're a

‍

wandering vine and you basically need to come back home. And so I look at the rule

‍

of life. I mean, yeah, crafting the rule of life as something that brings us home,

‍

brings us home to the true person, the best of you. - Yes, yeah.

‍

- The one person that God made you to be in all of your uniqueness and all of

‍

your beauty and all of the gifts and the abilities and the storyline of your life.

‍

and you begin to unpack that, understand that. And when you begin to live it, you

‍

realize you don't have to keep looking over your shoulder wishing you were like

‍

someone else. Instead, you look upward and straightforward to say, "God,

‍

how do you want me to live my life fully for you?" So we have things in common.

‍

It's like a thumb and a thumbprint. We all have thumbs and the thumb does what the

‍

thumb's supposed to do. but your thumbprint is different than mine. And let's

‍

accentuate the idea that your life is unique as mine is,

‍

as everyone is listening to our voices is. If we can set people free to become

‍

fully who they are and live more purposefully into that, then they're putting their

‍

vine on a trellis And it's flourishing and blossoming, just like a healthy vine

‍

should. I love this. And I think that, you know, this is probably overly simplified,

‍

but from many of my listeners, I see a lot of this work of spiritual formation and

‍

these, the rhythm of life, uh, I mean, the rule of life as sort of an expansion

‍

of what so many of us got, which wasn't all bad, which is you have your quiet

‍

time in the morning, read the Bible, pray, go about the business every day, go to

‍

church on Sundays, say grace before meals. You know, these are not, these are, these

‍

are beautiful rhythms, but they can so easily become wrote,

‍

or if, let's say, um, my personal time, you know,

‍

feels dry. And, and so then I set it aside, but I feel shame because I, you know,

‍

I I don't know I and I have listeners right into me. They say, you know, I've

‍

been growing. I've been learning about myself I've been growing in emotional health

‍

and in some ways now my old rhythms my old rituals feel dry And I think to

‍

myself, oh that that's because there's we're incorporating in new layers new meaning,

‍

you know, we're Expanding all the different ways that we encounter God and those are

‍

part of it. All of those different ways are part of how we encounter God. And I

‍

found in that book, "The Crafting of the Rule of Life," it includes, you know, it's

‍

reading the scripture, prayer, worship, all of those things, but there's just so much

‍

more too. And again, this is ancient. This is not new. These are ancient rhythms.

‍

There's just so many more ways that we can encounter God in our daily lives.

‍

So I just found it incredibly helpful to me to just expand some of that myopic

‍

viewpoint that parts of me had kind of thought, this is the way, you know, this is

‍

the way, and if these ways aren't working, you know, there's something wrong with

‍

me. - Right. Oh, that's good. It's expansive, but it's also deepening.

‍

- Yes. - In one's self -awareness, and we're not very good at self -awareness either.

‍

- Yes. - We've listened to lies and we've created lies.

‍

And no, we need to listen to the truth and speak truth and lean into the truth of

‍

who you really are, who you're meant to be. - Yeah. - And yeah, it's gonna take

‍

some collaboration with the Holy Spirit and with people who know us best and love

‍

us most. - Yes. - And And that I do think is very important. Turn to the people

‍

who know you best and love you most and want the very best for you. They'll help

‍

you figure this thing out and expand it as well as deepen that awareness.

‍

It's interesting too that Saint Benedict, one of my other heroes, ancient heroes, he

‍

was one who really formalized an understanding of a rule of life. And for him,

‍

it was all about these two same things, contemplation and community. In fact, if you

‍

look at his rule of life, it is all about that. But the opening word, the first

‍

word is listen. Yeah, it's like, listen, listen to God,

‍

listen to your personal life experience, pay close attention, and then lean into what

‍

you hear what you're noticing from the word of God, from the voice of God,

‍

from the voice of the community of God.

‍

Yeah, listen, it goes back to listening again. That's right. And so essential,

‍

so very important. I love that we bookended the conversation, the listening.

‍

Where can my listeners find your work, find your resources, Find the new book,

‍

all the things, Steve.

‍

SteveMachia .com is my personal website for the books that I've written.

‍

LeadershipTransformations .org is the ministry website. So, SteveMachia, M -A -C -C -H -I

‍

-A, SteveMachia .com and LeadershipTransformations .org.

‍

We'd love to welcome anyone that's your friend is our friend Allison. - I highly

‍

recommend, I mean, you've been doing this for a long time. I know there are folks

‍

coming along now. John Mark Comer is one who are kind of bringing these ideas well

‍

into the mainstream, which I think is awesome. You have been working out these ideas

‍

for years. These are such trusted resources and I cannot recommend your work enough.

‍

- Well, thank you, Allison. You're very kind. I so appreciate your friendship, and

‍

I'm so delighted with the ways that your ministry is expanding,

‍

exploding really with your writing and your podcast and your speaking and just so

‍

proud of you. Just delighting with you and for you. And And praise God,

‍

awesome, well done, good and faithful one. Thank you, Steve likewise. Thank you for

‍

joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if

‍

you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or

‍

wherever you listen to podcasts and click the plus or follow button. That will

‍

ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others. While

‍

you're there, I'd love it if you leave your five -star review. I look forward to

‍

seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you

‍

are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God -given self.

‍

The world has changed, and raising kids now requires a new kind of courage.

‍

In this encouraging yet practical episode, Dr. Alison is joined by counselors and best-selling authors Sissy Goff and David Thomas of Daystar Counseling in Nashville. Together, they discuss why anxiety is showing up earlier and more intensely in children, and how parents can respond with both empathy and practical tools. 

‍

Sissy and David share creative ways they’re helping kids build courage, resilience, self-control, and perspective. From therapy dogs and illustrated children’s books to powerful stories from their counseling practice, Sissy and David deliver hopeful reminders that your calm matters, and practical strategies can help your kids step into the world with more confidence. 

‍

This episode explores:

• Why childhood anxiety is rising, and how it looks different in boys and girls
  
  
• The surprising ways technology impacts emotional health
  
  
• The unintended consequence of overprotective parenting
  
  
• Practical tools  that help kids develop resilience, risk-taking, and healthy coping
  
  
• When to seek counseling for your child
  
  

‍

This episode is a hopeful reminder: Kids don’t need a perfect parent. They need a present one who believes in their courage and helps them practice it.

‍

For More from David and Sissy: ‍

check out their website, https://www.raisingboysandgirls.com and pre-order the DayStar Dogs books here:

📚Pippa Learns to Share the Spotlight: A Lesson About Jealousy

📚Happy Finds Her Calm: A Lesson in Self-Control 

‍

📥 Grab your 3 free Boundaries For Your Soul resources here: 

📥 Download Alison’s free printable with the five boundary tools when you sign up for her weekly email.

‍

Here are some other episodes you might like :

Episode 65: Vulnerability, Parenting, and Letting Go of Control

Episode 85: The Goal of a Healthy Family & 6 Roles We Take On In Dysfunction 

‍

💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

‍

Thanks to our Sponsors!

• Go to ⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
• Better sleep starts today! Get a birch mattress and test it out for 100 nights risk-free PLUS a discount for being a listener by visiting birchliving.com/BESTOFYOU.
• If you’re looking for a Bible that helps you live the Word, not just read it, then grab this beautiful one I’m currently using at NIVapplicationbible.com.
• Give online therapy a try and see how it can help you become more present, more aware, and more connected to the life you want to live. Visit  BetterHelp.com/BESTOFYOU.
• For 20% off your order, head to Reliefband.com and use code BESTOFYOU
• ‍

*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

‍

Transcript

‍

Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week’s episode of The Best of You. 

Today we’re diving into a topic I know so many of you are navigating—how to help our kids develop real courage and resilience in an anxious world.

We touched on this theme last week with Trey Tucker, who works primarily with Gen Z young adults. And today, we’re going to look at the same concern a little earlier in life—through the lens of children and families.

In this conversation, you’ll hear:

• A simple way to become the “calm your child can catch,” even when you’re stressed.
  
  
• Why anxiety in kids often looks like anger, control, or distraction—and what to do in the moment.
  
  
• How to decide when it’s time to consult a professional (and how to frame counseling as part of your child’s care team).
  
  
• Two kid-friendly tools you can try tonight to right-size big feelings and build brave muscles over time.
  
  

We’ll also talk about an amazing new resource for kids that uses stories to teach emotional skills in a playful, shame-free way. It’s creative, evidence-informed, and honestly…fun.

All right—let’s get to it.

‍

Alison Cook:  Today I am joined by two voices most of you already know and love they are counselors and best -selling authors Sissy Goff and David Thomas. Together they have helped thousands, is it probably more than thousands, of families through their work at Daystar Counseling in Nashville, their best -selling books and their top -ranked raising boys and girls podcast. If you're not subscribed to it, go hit the subscribe button because they are doing such good work to help parents. They are now,

‍

I'm so excited to have them now. They are bringing that same wisdom to kids through a brand new illustrated series called the Daystar Dogs, which I love. These stories feature their, we'll get into it more in the episode today, but their stories feature therapy dogs, Lucy, Owen, Happy, and Pippa. And here's the thing that think is so cool and listen to these qualities, these emotional skills that they're going to help your kids with. Courage, resilience, self -control, and jealousy.

‍

That's just four of them. I mean, do we all need help trying to empower our kids through courage, resilience, self control and jealousy. I am so thrilled to welcome David and Sissy Goff to the podcast today. Thanks for being here. We are always so delighted to be with you and honored to get to have this time. 

‍

David Thomas: Any time our paths intersect with you it's a good good day. It's always it's so fun 

‍

Alison Cook: We got to do it live sometime. That's the only thing we haven't been able to like I need to we need to get down there. Well I am so excited to launch into this. I kind of, because we're sort of back to school, we're sending kids out. Let's touch on this kind of anxiety word that's everywhere. We're talking about how kids are more anxious. There's actually a recent CDC study that's talking about how anxiety is actually raising in younger and younger kids. What are some of your top tips for parents to help their younger kids develop more courage and resilience, especially as we're thinking about them heading back into the school year.

‍

Sissy Goff: Well, you just said this on our podcast and we are so team Allison on this that the very best thing you can do as a parent is to do your own work. And so we were talking about the very idea that just like anxiety ripples over onto the kids we love so does calm and so does the reminder that we can live in both spaces that we can feel anxious and nervous and worried and we can still do hard things that it's both things and so we felt like there was not much that speaks to the heart of kids with those kind of messages like a dog and that's why we'll talk more about that I'm sure but that's why the dogs are communicating the message but

‍

I do think for parents it is so easy and in fact talking about research research says the two most common parenting strategies in light of anxiety are escape and avoidance so we see our kids in distress and it feels like good parenting to pull them out of that distress and In fact, that communicates the message, which we're not intending to, but it communicates the message, yeah, you can't do this without me.

‍

You are dependent on me. You can't do hard things, which is never what we're trying to communicate, but it's what is translated. And so when a parent can say, can hold both things of, of course you have big feelings that this feels scary and you know what? You are so much capable than you have any idea. There is so much courage, not that you have to rise up to, but there is so muc courage that God put inside of you already. 

‍

Alison Cook: That's so good. That's so good. So much more is caught than taught in a way they catch our own sense of belief in them. Why do you think dogs are so helpful? I mean, I love my dogs. We were talking about this. We all kind of love our dogs. But why do you think there's such helpful kind of tools for or why do you think there's such helpful illustrations for teaching children how to navigate their own heart emotions?

‍

David Thomas: It was for us a really easy decision and a natural progression. We currently have six therapy dogs on staff in our practice and so a lot of doodles. We do. We love doodles and we talk about how much work they do that makes our job 10 times easier, you know, how many kids and adolescents have walked into this space feeling nervous, fearful, overwhelmed about that first appointment. Any parent who's taken a child you love to counseling for any of us who've gone ourselves, that first appointment can feel somewhat overwhelming and it's amazing how  often we have seen kids settle early into the experience just impeding the dog, just in talking about their own dog. We're starting our conversation right there and  telling a story about a dog they love and how often we have seen evidence of kids telling more than I think they ever plan to tell in the company of a dog. And so because they do so much of the great work and the teaching in our space, it felt like this natural extension of what we do that the dogs would lead in terms of teaching these emotional skills that we felt were so important. - There's something so safe about dogs. -

‍

Alison Cook:  Yeah, that's beautiful. - 

‍

Sissy Goff: Well, and I will tell you the reason we started having dogs, so my first dog as an adult was a little Maltese named Noelle, and there were some people working at my house one day and I couldn't leave her home, so I called our dear friend and boss Melissa and said, "Could I bring Noelle to work for and she said to her and so that day, you know, we have all had this experience and I was sitting with an adolescent girl who told me she wanted to take her own life. And so I called her mother, had her mother come to the office and I needed to go sit with her mom and tell her what she had said to me. And so I left Noelle with this teenage girl and went and talked to her mom. And when I came back, Noelle was in the girl's lap licking her tears and she just intuitively knew Noelle just knew she needed to lean in with this girl and and that afternoon I called Melissa and told her the story and she said bring that dog every day and so now sweet little Noelle has this legacy of all these dogs that are such an important part of our work and so many parents will bring their kids the first time to counseling and say the only reason I got my child to agree to come is 'cause y’'all had dogs. - Which we love. 

‍

Alison Cook: I love it, I love it, that's beautiful. I wanna get into a little bit, how you're seeing some of these different things show up differently in boys and girls. It's one of the things I love about your work and your partnership. Before we get there, I wanna ask a question I hear so often from parents, and that is, how do I know when It's time to take my child to therapy?

‍

David Thomas: such a great question. It is and we hear it often as well And we would say two things to that first we'd say to parents if If things are inquestion if you feel uncertain about that decision we always believe it's a great call to Consult with your pediatrician Come in and meet yourself with a therapist first and just ask questions because it may be that We do a lot of what we call parent consultations in our work where we may just give Parents a to -do list and leaving of some things for them to try at home That could be as much support is as needed in that season or in that conversation We might hear evidence of youknow, I think it would be beneficial to go ahead and jump start this process So I think a consultation is just a good, safe place to begin, whether that's with your pediatrician, whether that's with someone who does the work like we do, so that we're making sure we're giving the right amount of support. Not too little, not too much. Secondly, we would say we certainly want to watch for evidence of where something with the kids we love might feel problematic or difficult versus debilitating. So think, for example, you've got a kid who is sometimes teary on the way to school and feels really nervous about walking in the building. That's super common for a high percentage of kids, particularly in the first few weeks of the start of school. We're not overly concerned about kids who are teary on the ride to school, maybe even hesitant walking in but can find their way in the building and teachers report are settling in and experiencing learning and friendships and all those things, we're worried about the kids who can't get in the building, who, it's not just a tummy ache, they're throwing up before they leave the house, or it requires an administrator to come out to the parking lot and help get them into the building, that it's become so debilitating, it's difficult for them to experience the normal and good things we want kids to experience of learning and relationships. And so That's maybe a way to think on a concern you might carry for a child or out of lesson you love. Is it problematic or is it debilitating? Is it getting in the way of life for them? Because we don't want to wait until it's getting in the way of life and it's snowballed to that place. 

‍

Sissy Goff: I love that. I think my favorite story ever, and I can't remember if I've told you this before, but we had a mom come in once and she said that her daughter was pushing back and we see so many families who the kids don't want to come the first time. And we will say to parents, if you can get them to the building, every counselor who works with kids has convinced a kid to come in the building before. That's fine. But this mom was saying how her daughter was pushing back and she said, why do I have to go mom? 

‍

And this brilliant mom said, honey, my job as your parent is to build your team. And we

have people on your medical team who are your doctors and we have people who are on your academic team that are your educators of course I'm gonna have people on your emotional team and they're gonna be your counselors and so we may not go for six months we may go a few times just so you have a person so that when something does come up you can say hey mom I'd like to go see Sissy again and then we just you have a relationship and we just step right back into that place I just thought what a beautiful way to describe that to a child. Isn't that awesome? 

‍

Alison Cook: Wow, I love that. It's, I'm wanting to tell my listeners, they need to go listen to our conversation that we're gonna have on your podcast because talk about a secure, safe place that you're creating for your kids. That's so beautiful. What a great way to kind of normalize that team around our children that this is normal. That's so helpful. I love it. 

‍

That's so practical. If you're worried, do a consultation. Talk to your doctor. Talk to a therapist. Ask them. Get some benchmarks for what might, but I love the normalization of, this is just a part of our team, you know? That's beautiful. That's so helpful. All right, so I wanna talk a little bit about how have you yourself in your practice in your work how are you seeing anxiety manifest itself in younger girls in particular?

‍

Sissy Goff: Well I would say I mean a lot of the parents I see of younger girls the girls are typically the firstborn not always but so much of the time and I believe the primary coping strategy for them. In lieu of any other healthy coping strategies becomes control, which I think any of us who are first born can say that continues through adulthood. But I think for a lot of these girls, they don't yet have the words or the understanding to say, "Hey, Mom, it makes me feel anxious when you change my schedule and I don't have any input," or when I don't know what's coming. And So they start to feel things in their body and then they lock down on, "I thought this was supposed to happen," or all of a sudden they just have a lot of anger or a lot of big feelings and get very rigid and very demanding even in what they expect and what they think should happen next. And I even see it happen in kids over birthday gifts or Christmas gifts that they can get really rigid about something they think they want and for a parent it feels like entitlement but really it's more about control and so I think with I mean we know all behaviors

communication from kids and so anytime there are big feelings I want parents to really track okay what are the patterns when are we seeing this come up what are the circumstances around it and is it about control and rigidity because when it is I think often anxiety is driving that train rather than just pure anger or entitlement. So that's one I really wanna pay attention to with younger girls. 

‍

Alison Cook: How are you seeing anxiety show up in young boys?

‍

David Thomas:  It's interesting to hear you answer Sissy in the way you did because if I were to assign two words that I think best reflect what it looks like on young boys, I would say anger and control. And it's often a rigidity and inflexibility resistance to trying anything new.

‍

Interestingly enough, I see a lot of first born boys who struggle in this space.

‍

That's not to say there aren't plenty of seconds and thirds I've seen who struggle

‍

in that space, but a high percentage of first born boys who are also high

‍

achieving, high performing, highly successful academically, athletically in a lot of

‍

those spaces. So I think it's two sides of the same coin so often. They're doing

‍

amazing things in the world and putting an overwhelming amount of pressure on

‍

themselves simultaneously. So I would say those two in particular, but one other

‍

interesting piece to note, I think with boys, young boys in particular,

‍

is that I think anxiety can masquerade as the symptomology of ADHD because I think

‍

when boys are carrying a lot of excess worry and fear it takes up a lot of

‍

cognitive real estate so they often look distracted and inattentive under focused and

‍

so really bright boys who are missing some basic instructions that again from an

‍

outside view could just look like classic ADHD but as we dig underneath it's some

‍

anxiety that's feeding and feeling it, it's just taking up so much brain space that

‍

if we can clear out that anxiety, often we see less evidence of what looks like

‍

true attention hurdles. 

‍

Alison Cook: How have you guys in all your years of working with young

‍

boys and girls, how have you seen anxiety change in how it shows up or what influences it. 

‍

David Thomas: Oh, that's a great question. I do think we're seeing it show up younger and younger.

‍

And I mean, there are so many things that we could talk about that are really

‍

influencing it. I mean, certainly technology. We know that. We know that from

‍

Jonathan Haidt's work. And I think that is not just I think we tend to think

‍

that's social media but it's also just the amount of images that are changing I

‍

mean if you're to watch a new show even for kids from today versus something from

‍

the 70s when we were growing up the amount of I don't even I'm not a filmmaker in

‍

any way so I don't know how to describe this in a way accurately but the

‍

- It happens so fast. 

‍

Alison Cook: Yeah, interesting. 

‍

Sissy Goff: And I remember a psychiatrist we were

‍

working with over a teenage girl in tandem, and she said to me, just the

‍

stimulation that's happening when a child watches a screen now is mimicking an

‍

anxious state in their minds, in their brains. - Interesting, wow. - And so it's not

‍

just once they hit social media age, it can be bluey stages too. And so I think

‍

want to pay close attention to that obviously but I think I would be so curious

‍

Allison in your work what you would say to this but I think we're seeing more and

‍

more parents who are doing this really good important work of as we've been talking

‍

about today healing from their own stories and in doing that I think they're

‍

overcompensating sometimes for what they missed And so they are doing this beautiful

‍

job of hearing and understanding their kids, being attuned to their kids emotionally

‍

and not necessarily arming their kids to do the important work of stepping into the

‍

hard things with coping strategies. So it's more like we're hearing them and

‍

understanding them and holding space for their emotions, But then we're not equipping

‍

them to walk out into the world and to know that they can do these things. 

‍

Alison Cook: That leads me that the Owen learns he has what it takes book,

‍

right, which is focusing on resilience. And how do you see a need for resilience

‍

showing up? 

‍

David Thomas: I would say I think there is an overwhelming need.

‍

Because for all the opportunity that exists for kids and adolescents in this day and

‍

time, we see all the evidence of them feeling less equipped, less capable than ever.

‍

And if I were to think about how that looks uniquely with boys, Allison,

‍

it's fascinating for me to have done this work for 30 years at, look back at

‍

shifts and the evidence of things being really different and I'm not just fascinated

‍

but deeply concerned about currently the number of boys turning 16 who have little

‍

to no interest in getting a driver's license.  Where I saw no evidence

‍

of that on the front side of my work. Like I'd have to think back to if I ever

‍

encountered an adolescent young man that didn't want to pursue that, or wasn't even

‍

chomping at the bits to do that, and seeing less and less evidence of that now.

‍

They don't really wanna pursue the independence and the opportunity because, we'll

‍

talk about this word a lot, it involves risk to move into that space, to study for

‍

the test, to take the test, and maybe fail the test and have to take it again.

‍

And alongside that, I'm seeing fewer adolescent boys than ever who are interested in

‍

getting a part -time job interested in asking to a homecoming dance and how that

‍

graduates up to less interested than ever and the statistics reflect this to apply

‍

to college you know there's been a significant shift in the number of boys applying

‍

to the undergrad students and that's not to say every young man's journey is to

‍

pursue a four -year education. But it is to say, I don't want him to close the

‍

door on that opportunity simply because he's had so little practice in the place of

‍

risk. And if I were to scale that down to the elementary age years, I'm seeing

‍

fewer boys than ever who are interested in being a part of a team.

‍

- You know, dipping back into what Sissy talked about with G, you know, content to

‍

just be home playing video games, content to only have conversations with friends

‍

when I have a headset on, as opposed to going to a birthday party and having human

‍

interaction. Because again, all those things involve risk. It's risky to join a team.

‍

It's risky to ask a girl to a dance. It's risky to apply to college. And I'm

‍

seeing greater evidence than ever of boys moving away from risk, which is why the

‍

Owen book felt so important to begin to address that on the front side of

‍

development. 

‍

Alison Cook: It's so interesting. So this is just listening to tie that to

‍

resilience, right, the risk -taking. And this is my anecdotal take on this.

‍

I'm curious, is, you know, I feel like the way that we were parented, where there

‍

was sort of that almost living, you know, seen and not heard, right? And so we

‍

sort of learned resilience the rough and tumble way, like we couldn't wait to get

‍

our driver's licenses, right? And then there was sort of a correction

‍

toward parents being more attuned, parents being more present. But it almost-- and

‍

this is a too simplistic way to say it, but almost feels like an overcorrection. Is

‍

that-- Yes. OK, yes. Yeah, right? You're both nodding your head and stronger.

‍

There's a there's a both and there right there's a both and that is so necessary

‍

in being a present parent it's it's not gosh okay that is just so interesting so

‍

okay so let's talk about these books so in Owen that I'm curious about this link

‍

so in Owen learns he has what it takes there's a feelings chart so why is this

‍

feelings chart so Important for these young boys in particular as as you're wanting

‍

them to develop these risk -taking muscles this Resilience. 

‍

David Thomas: Yeah Well, I think it starts with if I can't name my experience, you know, it's back to the wisdom of naming and taming I can't tame anything that I can't name. I can't Figure

‍

out what it looks like to our conversation to take a risk if I can't accurately

‍

Identify the fear that's getting in the way of me taking the risk and so I think

‍

It hope was that just that might be an invitation to kids and parents doing more of

‍

that connecting of the dots. In addition to, you know, Owen's story is really about

‍

how that fear started to get in the way of him doing some of the very things he

‍

wanted to do. Yeah. In addition to his work with me here in my practice at

‍

Daystar, we did some volunteering at our local Children's Hospital and on the very

‍

first visit after months and months of training this dog to be a therapy dog We

‍

show up for our first visit and we're in the hallway outside of the first room

‍

with this Adorable little guy who's sitting on his bed in the hospital room and I'm

‍

so excited to walk in and begin the work and Owen is Paralysed like he is in a

‍

sit position, I cannot get him in the room, and all of a sudden I start to

‍

realize he's overwhelmed by a lot of new things he's not yet encountered, you know,

‍

the white coats and the noises and sirens going off from the machines in the

‍

hallway and people pushing carts up and down and there was a lot of stimulation

‍

going on around him and it got in the way, it triggered some fear and so all of

‍

a sudden he's not wanting to step forward into this room and missing this incredible

‍

opportunity this little boy who wants to be with him and who I think needed that

‍

visit and Owen needed to be with this boy and so I literally had to pick the 70

‍

pound dog up and carry him into the room and put him on the bed so that he could

‍

have this great encounter and Alison and I have to tell you and I may cry as I'm

‍

telling you the story Sissy and I had a parent write us a letter that we just got

‍

at Daystar and she'd been reading the Lucy and Owen books to her daughter who's

‍

preschool age and she was reading them running up to the beginning of the school

‍

year because her daughter historically has a lot of trouble the first couple weeks

‍

of school and separating out which is super common for a lot of kids and sure

‍

enough on day one they showed up at school. Despite a warm up where she got to

‍

meet her teacher and her mom was really hopeful it might go a little differently

‍

this time on day one she was just clean to her mom crying so hard and the teacher

‍

motion to the mom that she could come on in and sit with her for a few minutes

‍

in the classroom hopefully in a way that would settle her and she said I was

‍

sitting in the floor with her and kind of combing her back and hair and she

‍

whispered and her mom's ear she said you know, sometimes Owen's dad had to carry

‍

him in the room too when he felt scared and I wept reading that letter and

‍

thinking about that was everything the two of us hoped would happen with these books

‍

is that it would be the beginnings of kids making those connections and even if she

‍

could, you know, say through that experience, "I'm afraid right now." And so that

‍

was everything we could have hoped might might happen with writing these books and

‍

being able to press in on the front side of development. 

‍

Alison Cook: That's beautiful. Yeah, where meet kids right where they are.

‍

Okay, so then we have Lucy learns to be brave, which is such a great title.

‍

I love this for girls. So you include in this book a thermometer chart for children

‍

to fill in. So how does this tool help our young ones be brave?

‍

SIssy Goff: Well, we talk often about how more kids than ever,

‍

if we were going to think about emotions on a one to 10 scale, more kids and

‍

earlier than ever are going to 10. There's not a sense of two to four or two to

‍

five. So And older ones have expressed it well to me. They don't say,

‍

I feel nervous. They say, I have anxiety. They don't say, I feel sad. They say,

‍

I'm depressed. I had a mom, I think it was probably three years ago now who said

‍

to me for the first time, and now I'm hearing this phrase all the time. But she

‍

said, I think my seventh grade daughter has rejection sensitivity dysphoria. - Oh boy.

‍

- And yes, exactly. And I tried to say this one.

‍

wanting to help at an early age kids learn to have a sense of perspective and to

‍

have a sense of I mean Lucy my little dog who I adored that I had for 15 years

‍

for her one of her biggest fears was hiccups the first time I ever got the hiccups

‍

in front of her I was counseling a mom and Lucy ended up trying to climb on top

‍

of this woman's head to get away from me because she was shaking and so terrified

‍

of the hiccups and so I use that in the book as an example of let's you know

‍

let's make a two a two and let's make a six a six and a hiccup as a two and a

‍

six is maybe you know something scary happening in your family and nine is certainly

‍

that and so I think helping them have that sense of perspective early on can really

‍

be a game changer for kids and it's so funny, Allison, because I literally have

‍

not, this is so, I think how God works often, but I have not thought about that

‍

book in the context I'm about to attach it to until we have this conversation

‍

earlier with you about attachment and I think the Lucy book is largely about

‍

attachment because it's the sense of discovering how very loved you are by by the

‍

grownups in your life, by God, means you are safe to go out and explore the world.

‍

- Yes. - And within that context, a two becomes a two. - Yes. - And a five is a

‍

five. - Yes. - And so that is exactly what the Lucy book is about. That when she

‍

discovers how much I love her, she's safe to do these hard, scary things. 

‍

Alison Cook: Oh, that's so good, and that's so empowering. As a child, you begin to trust that inner sense of, you know, this is how, I remember as our kids got older, we would ask

‍

them, is it, you know, feeling anxious or feeling, is it small, medium, or big? And

‍

then as they got older, they could say it's small. They could self -reflect in a

‍

way that's like, and it's small, you know, it's like, I'm fine, I can go to

‍

school. But, and there was that ongoing trust of if it's big, I'm gonna do

‍

something different, but is it small and you're kind of helping, I love the

‍

thermometer metaphor in that, in that idea of helping them at a very young age,

‍

understand those distinctions. Okay, so you've got two more books coming out. These are coming out in November.

‍

And I want to know, I mean, listen to these titles, Happy Finds Her Calm, and

‍

Pippa learns to share the spotlight. So we're looking at self -control and jealousy.

‍

What led you to land on those two key topics for these next two books?

‍

Sissy Goff: We had so much fun writing these two books. I think we both cried writing the Lucy

‍

and Owen books because they were dogs we adored in that we have lost since then.

‍

But happy and Pippa we giggled our way through both of those books and I'll talk

‍

about Pippa will you talk about happy. So Pippa is a big sister who loves the

‍

spotlight. She's actually an only child, only dog, who loves the spotlight and she's

‍

wearing a tutu and she's doing all the things and everybody is so attentive to

‍

everything she does. And then she finds out she's gonna have this baby sister and

‍

Pippa, for the first time, starts to really struggle with jealousy. And that is a

‍

universal experience. And I have not come across any books that I really loved that

‍

could help older siblings. I mean, certainly there are books that talk about that,

‍

but we start to talk about emotions as colors and how it's not one or the other,

‍

it's both so much of the time. And I can love my younger sibling and I can feel

‍

fear about that too. And sometimes the fear can morph even into anger.

‍

And so Pippa's jealousy comes out as anger. And so helping kids start to tease

‍

those apart and understand how all of these different emotions live inside of us.

‍

Just that idea of naming it helps sustain it. So good. And so Pippa learns to,

‍

at the end, her little sister's in a two -two -two and they're in the birthday

‍

parade together, which is so much fun for both of them.

‍

Alison Cook:  I love that. That's great.

‍

David Thomas: And with happy we really did laugh our way through the writing of both these books.

‍

In fact at one point we were having so much fun we said our editor we may never

‍

write another book for grown -ups. This is so enjoyable. But our hope within that

‍

was that parents and kids were gonna laugh together too as they read these stories

‍

because we both believe that Laughing and learning can happen side by side. We

‍

always say that to parents. Like when we're talking around some harder things, let's

‍

laugh together too. Let's laugh at ourselves. Let's laugh with the kids we love. And

‍

we talked a little earlier about how the lack or lacking the skills to regulate can

‍

get in the way sometimes of attention and focus, just as fear can. But one of the

‍

things we also talk about within the happy book is how the other thing it can get

‍

away get in the way of is reading the room and missing some cues and so happy has

‍

a lot of moments where she's too much for her friends and not finding her calm is

‍

getting in the way of relationships but one of the other things that I hope happens

‍

in this book in the discovery is that we would love if a lot of parents might be

‍

willing to Purchase a copy of this book for a teacher that you love because Happy's

‍

teacher is the real hero of this story. Happy gets to therapy dog school That's

‍

where it takes place and her teacher is just a rock star and all the different

‍

ways that she helps her Strategize at school that spills over into home So that

‍

these things aren't getting in the way of all of what she's wanting to accomplish

‍

build relationships have friends, enjoy school. So our hope is that a lot of

‍

teachers feel really seen and encouraged through this story as well. - And Happy's

‍

teacher, by the way, is named Cat with a K, based off of the teacher that we've

‍

both used for our therapy dogs.

‍

Alison Cook:  I love that. I love that. I love the whole

‍

collaborative approach you take, even in the stories and your work, it's reflective

‍

of your work with teachers and parents and counselors and you know it just it's all

‍

you know I love how that's reflected in the story right there's all sorts of folks

‍

kind of coming alongside our kids who can be empowered to help them grow and

‍

together you know if we look at this series we've got courage resilience self

‍

-control and jealousy so how do addressing how do we when our kids are addressing

‍

these four sort of core areas. How is that creating a foundation for emotional

‍

health? What does that look like when our kids, you know, when we're really looking

‍

at our kids and we're kind of, you know, we've got our own inner critics aside and

‍

we've got our own perfectionism aside and we're like, you know, I think my child is

‍

doing all right. You know, I think they're, you know, how do we kind of gauge that

‍

in our kids against these these these four kind of topics that you're helping us

‍

engage with. 

‍

Sissy Goff: That's a great question and I I think it is so fun for them to be

‍

described through children's books because we are we would guess that the majority of

‍

readers are not reading themselves but their parents are reading to them. Yeah. And

‍

so the fact that it is creating connection and conversation as they're reading and

‍

hopefully talking about these very issues together I think is gives the parent an

‍

opportunity to do some empathy work, to do some modeling of these things,

‍

to learn to ask questions. We have we have not only a therapeutic tool in each

‍

book but we have conversation starters with kids so if that feels hard to know

‍

where to start but I think to everything that we've been talking about I think the

‍

idea that a child is learning to say this is what's happening inside of me yeah

‍

this is what's happening inside of me this is why I feel it and here's what I can

‍

do about it yeah and Sometimes what I can do is just like your kids, I feel all

‍

this, but yeah, it really is small. Or I know, I love in the Owen book that it's

‍

the analogy is Owen wanted to step backwards, but he learned to step forwards.

‍

That I can feel these things, I can understand them, and I can still step forward

‍

into purpose, into meaning, into connection with other people into whatever is in

‍

front of me. That is an opportunity to grow and to learn. 

‍

David Thomas: And I think the only thing that I would add to that is I love the quote from

‍

Frederick Douglass that says, "It's easier to build strong children than to repair

‍

broken men." I think there's incredible wisdom in those words and I think it excites

‍

the two of us to think about building these skills into the youngest of kids that

‍

they would be practicing in these ways that they would be having these kind of

‍

conversations with it with their parents and laying this foundation on this side of

‍

development and I was thinking just as you were asking that question Allison I will

‍

never forget a couple of years ago I was leading a group of second through with

‍

great boys and one of the boys came to group that week and his parents over the

‍

weekend had told he and his sister that they were getting a divorce and he was

‍

reporting that to this little group of second and third grade boys and he started

‍

crying his little voice cracked he started crying telling it and there was another

‍

little boy who a year before had navigated that exact same transition and as this

‍

little guy was trying to tell the group about what had happened. This other little

‍

boy who lived that already started scooting closer and closer him. I don't think he

‍

even knew that it was happening to where by the time the little boy finished his

‍

reporting he was almost touching knee to knee and looked at this little guy and

‍

said I remember when it happened to me and I promise you're gonna be okay. It

‍

doesn't feel like that right now like I watch this beautiful interaction happen

‍

between two elementary -aged boys and I had this thought midway through it thinking I

‍

cannot even imagine the two of you as adult men like I started thinking 30 years

‍

down the road and thinking to be practicing these things right now practicing empathy

‍

practicing active listening practicing all these different emotional skills on the

‍

front side how that's gonna inform who you are as men in the world, how it's gonna

‍

shape your own marriages, how it's gonna flow out into your own experience of

‍

parenting, so I think it's just that great reminder of the earlier we can teach

‍

these skills, the more we can practice these skills on the front side of

‍

development, I think it can be game changing for kids in their future relationships.

‍

Alison Cook: I love it. I love, and I love the introduction, because I can even imagine as a

‍

parent being, you know, if your kids struggling with something, you've read this book

‍

and you're like, let's remember Owen, you know, Owen is, you know, or let's, you

‍

know, what would Lucy, you know, that you're, you're, you've kind of got that, it

‍

kind of removes the shame or, you know, it kind of brings in a playful to your

‍

point, a playful way to kind of bring back those ideas and to help empower your

‍

kids. I love it. You guys are doing so much good in the world to help parents

‍

build these Strong kids. Are there other projects you have coming down the pipeline

‍

that you can kind of tease for us or get us excited about? I know you guys are

‍

always working on some some great projects 

‍

Sissy Goff: We definitely are always working on whatever we feel like the need is that's coming up with parents and kids We're seeing and and out of this concern about Anxiety out of this concern about the lack of resilience and to David's point, boys that are not getting their driver's license, I would say girls who are reaching out socially less than ever before, afraid to try and make friends. There just has been a almost, I mean, I think debilitating experience is probably too strong, but to some degree that feels true that kids are

‍

not being, not only who, I think the grownups who love them know they can,

‍

but what brings more confidence for them? They're not stepping into those places. And

‍

so we just have become increasingly concerned about that. So there might just be

‍

something for parents that really speaks to how to help your kids discover strengths,

‍

skills, and strategies practically in their daily life no matter how old they are,

‍

no matter what situation they're in that help them discover how capable they truly

‍

are. 

‍

Alison Cook: I love that what you're doing is coming out of your lived experience on the

‍

ground working with kids and parents. You're in the trenches, you're seeing, oh this

‍

is what's going on, this is what needs addressing, and then you're creating resources

‍

to reach so many people. It's so amazing. I'm so grateful. You too. Tell my listeners where they can find you and find the series and learn more about

‍

your work and upcoming projects that you'll have too.

‍

David Thomas: One way is we have a podcast called Raising Boys and Girls. We are just launching a season called Parenting Personalities. We're gonna talk about birth order,

‍

extroversion, introversion, how the Enneagram informs parenting and attachment.

‍

We just had an amazing guest, Dr. Allison Cook, and we want you to end for that

‍

episode. 

‍

Alison Cook: That sounds like a great series.

‍

David Thomas: RaisingBoysandGirls .com always is where you can find everything we're doing. And we also, on Instagram, @RaisingBoysandGirls in Sissy Goff are just trying to help in all

‍

the ways, parents, kids, all the Thanks. - That's amazing. Well, we will link to

‍

everything in the show notes. I'm so grateful that you're creating these resources.

‍

Such a beautiful way to steward the talents and just the incredible work that you're

‍

doing on the ground to help kids. So, so grateful for you both. 

‍

Thank you for your time.

‍

So grateful, my gosh. - Thank you, Alison.

‍

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would

‍

mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify,

‍

Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the plus or follow

‍

button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out

‍

to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you'd leave your five star review. I

‍

look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday and remember, as You become the

‍

best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your

‍

God -given self.

‍

‍

 In this episode, Dr. Alison is joined by counselor and podcast host Trey Tucker for an honest conversation about the rise of therapy culture online, the pitfalls of over-identifying with a diagnosis, and how parents can help kids build resilience instead of anxiety.

‍

Together, they unpack:

• The rise of “TikTok Therapy”—what’s helpful about therapy content online and where it falls short.
• Why so many people are tempted to define themselves by a diagnosis—and how that can keep us stuck.
• The difference between true boundaries and emotional avoidance.
• Parenting without panic: how to model calm presence instead of passing anxiety on to the next generation.
• Why resilience, not fragility, is one of the greatest gifts we can offer our kids.
  
  

‍

Alison and Trey bring different perspectives with a shared passion for nuance, honesty, and practical hope. It’s a refreshing, thought-provoking dialogue that will encourage you to think differently about therapy, identity, and how we show up in family life.

📚 Learn more about Trey’s work at www.ruggedcounseling.com

📥For more in-depth listening, check out his podcast, Rugged with Trey Tucker and his socials

📥 Grab your 3 free Boundaries For Your Soul resources here 

📥 Download Alison’s free printable with the five boundary tools when you sign up for her weekly email.

‍

More episodes you might like :

Episode 65:Vulnerability, Parenting, and Letting Go of Control—Inside A Guy’s Perspective With Our Friends From Dadville

Episode 66:  The Truth About Anxiety & How to Become a Worry Free Parent with Sissy Goff

Episode 41: Boundaries With Fear And Anxiety—How to Calm the Chaos Within and the Joy of Internal Boundaries

‍

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt — mentioned in the context of the impact of social media on kids and rising anxiety.

Boundaries for Your Soul by Alison Cook & Kimberly Miller — you referenced it when talking about IFS and faith integration.

Fathered by God by John Eldredge — Trey mentioned this when discussing father wounds and stages of a man’s life.

‍

💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

‍

*Some of the links above are Amazon affiliate links. If you choose to purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.

‍

Thanks to our Sponsors!

• Go to ⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
• Better sleep starts today! Get a birch mattress and test it out for 100 nights risk-free PLUS a discount for being a listener by visiting birchliving.com/BESTOFYOU.
• If you’re looking for a Bible that helps you live the Word, not just read it, then grab this beautiful one I’m currently using at NIVapplicationbible.com.
• Head to cozyearth.com and use the code BESTOFYOU for 40% off! 

Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

‍

Transcript

‍

Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of the Best of You. I'm so glad you're here today for a conversation that I think so many of you are gonna find, both refreshing and challenging in the best possible way.

Today I'm joined by fellow therapist and podcast host Trey Tucker, and This episode's a little different than some I've done in the past. It's really just a conversation between two therapists. We take turns diving into some of the hot topics we've both been wrestling with. You'll hear us unpack the rise of therapy, speak on platforms like TikTok and Instagram, how it's helpful in some ways, but also where it's falling short.

We talk about the dangers of over identifying with a diagnosis, The nuance between real boundaries and emotional avoidance and why resilience not fragility is one of the greatest gifts we can offer the next generation.

And what I love about this conversation is Trey, number one is a guy. So he has a different perspective than I [00:01:00] do, but he also works primarily with young adults with Gen Z and young millennials. whereas my focus is primarily on women, and so it was a really fun conversation to just tackle some of these topics from our two different perspectives.

 Trey is a licensed professional counselor educator and the host of the Rugged with Trey Tucker Podcast, where he shares mental health insights honesty and depth, especially for men and young adults.

His work blends experience from the education world, private practice and online spaces where he is helping reframe what it means to be emotionally healthy in a culture that often confuses comfort with healing. 

 this is one of those episodes where I genuinely forgot we were recording because the conversation was just so rich, and it was just so fun to bat some of these ideas back and forth with a fellow therapist.

I hope it speaks to you and encourages you and maybe even challenges you to think a little differently. Please enjoy my conversation with Trey Tucker.

‍

INTERVIEW

‍

Alison Cook: Tell me a little bit about, you're a therapist, you're in [00:02:00] Chattanooga. What does your life look like there? Family background, all the things.

Trey Tucker: Yeah, being a therapist is really fun. I actually came to it late in life. I kind of jumped mid-career. I started out in Educate. Well student. I started out in the corporate world. I was in marketing and then I learned a lot, but also learned it wasn't really fulfilling. So. I knew I wanted to really invest in people's lives on a one-on-one type of basis.

And so I switched over. I just, I started working in education. I was teaching and coaching and the students, I mean, almost from day one, they would just bring me a lot of just tough life struggles, and I was honored by the fact that they were, but. I always felt ill-equipped to really give 'em a, a solid answer.

And so at some point along the way, a few years into that, I just decided, all right, I'm going to get a counseling master's. And as you know, that's no small undertaking. So I was working full-time still, so I was doing the [00:03:00] part-time school thing to get the, the masters done. Now I still do a mixture of work in the education world and also in the private practice world.

And also all these videos and podcasts and things that, that tend to become the beasts that always wants to be fed as you know. So

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Trey Tucker: between that mix, it's, it's a really fun ride. Most mornings I wake up and it doesn't even feel right work that I'm getting ready to go do. It's just like I, I can't believe that I get paid for this.

Alison Cook: That's awesome. And do you. Yeah, so I actually started as teaching too. That's interesting. I went right into, I worked with adjudicated teens and I loved it as a teacher.

Trey Tucker: 

Alison Cook: at a, a school for girls who were, there because they'd been essentially put there instead of going to jail.

 I loved it. And so again, it was that blend of education, but also just. These tough situations, family stuff. Most of them, all came from terrible families. This was in Wyoming where I grew up. and then that just sparked my interest in [00:04:00] these dynamics. So I went and got my master's degree and then went on to do my PhD, which is in both psychology and religion.

'cause I was always toggling between the two. Right. Like, I think just like you and I'd love to hear more from you on that. you know, there's the spiritual dimension of healing, but then there's the psychological, but then I got into like clinical psychology and it felt very void. Of the spiritual dementia.

So I kind of flipped back to both end. And so I've always kind of tried to keep that. That's kind of the big thing I try to tie together, in what I do.

Trey Tucker: Yeah. do you tend to find yourself coming down one side or the other in terms of which you access more with a client?

Alison Cook: That's a good question. I don't see a lot of clients anymore, but whether with people, with clients in my own work, this is something I'd love to ask you. I can go back and forth. I can see issues with both. So in, in the faith world, I see the issues with. Over spiritualizing stuff, right?

That is trauma or family patterns or brain. but then in the [00:05:00] psychology world, I can get so frustrated with just what feels sort of, empty.

Trey Tucker: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: So focused on the individual. So focused on myself. And that was one thing I wanted to ask you. You know, we kind, especially in the social media world of therapy, where everybody's kind of.

 speaking the language and sometimes I think, is this really got substance to it?

Trey Tucker: Uh, yeah, I, I'm glad you said that because I'm getting more and more fed up with it at first, especially the first probably couple years like. 2020 and then 21 22. I was thinking, all right, this is awesome. We're normalizing therapy and people are talking about their mental health and, and then the last year or two, frankly, I just noticed people.

Either becoming weak or staying weak and they're using therapy language as a way to stay stuck. the word fragile just keeps coming in on my mind as I see a lot of these videos of like, you know, you need to [00:06:00] cut off your parents 'cause they didn't give you everything you needed as a 

 child, or your friend wouldn't appreciate the fur measure of who you are. You just need to walk away. I'm like, oh my gosh. Like at what point did we expect. The real to be perfect and our parents to be perfect. And then our response is, well, I'm just gonna cut everybody off. I mean, that's a perfect recipe to stay weak.

So there's my little soapbox, but we can go any direction we want. What do you think though?

Alison Cook: Well, this is what I was kind of hoping for because looking at your account and looking at mine, there's definitely, we, we bring very different sort of energy. Maybe more male, more female energy, and yet. there's similar things that I see. The one that I see is the kind of, I am my diagnosis

Trey Tucker: Uh, yeah.

Alison Cook: as a, as a, well, it's just my anxiety or it's just this, and again, not that there aren't times and places for any of these things, right.

You and I both know this. And also it's almost like they, they become easy shortcuts and to me, I see it as very similar to what. What I [00:07:00] don't like simultaneously in the faith community where, where there could be some of these C cliche, oh, God just took it away. you know, that's sort of a magical fix that maybe happens in some instances, but the reality of 

 messiness, all this stuff is messy. I talk a lot about boundaries and then. At the one end, you know, it was so important for me to learn boundaries. And then on the same side, I see this, oh, that's just my boundary. And I'm like, I don't think that's a boundary. I think that's you putting up a brick wall and you don't wanna deal with something, you know?

Trey Tucker: Exactly. Hiding behind that brick wall and calling it a boundary,

Alison Cook: Yeah. Yeah.

Trey Tucker: The messiness for sure. I totally resonated with that. We, I've gotten better at showing my mess just in my own life. 'cause for a long time I just worked under the assumption that I need to look like I've got it all together, even though I know I don't have it all together.

And like that wasn't a mental health thing. That was just a kind of my own background thing. But as I became a therapist, I started realizing, wait a minute, I'm a mess. And if I show my clients at least a little bit of my mess, [00:08:00] then they're gonna be more likely to. Reciprocate and open up as well. And then it's, it's had that same effect in friendships and family and whatnot.

But yeah, we, we have to be willing to, to show our messiness and then tolerate it because like you said, if, if everything is just clear cut and black and white, nothing's ever gonna change.

Alison Cook: There's no perfect conversation. you know, so much of life is the rupture and then kind of trying to figure out how to come back to each other. So let's, I wanna get into vulnerability 'cause you talk a lot about that from a male perspective, and I think it's so interesting. Before we get there, let's close the loop on this sort of social media.

So, you create content, you. On there. You have a podcast, are you on TikTok? Or, or

Trey Tucker: I'm, I'm in the wild world of TikTok and Instagram and all that.

Alison Cook: so how do you, let's say, as a parent, and even for our listeners who are parents or for ourselves, who am I a kid that I never go down the, the TikTok Rabbit trail?

'cause I do. how do [00:09:00] you delineate healthy? And unhealthy, and how do you stay grounded in your own real messy life versus the social media version?

Trey Tucker: Yeah, it, it was tough at first because. When I first started making videos, I had no idea what I'm doing or what I was doing. I still don't have a great idea of what I'm doing, but at least I'm a little less of a rookie. And so it, it really became, almost an obsession. Like it took up almost all the real estate in my head of like, any conversation I would have or any article I would read, I would find my brain stuttering to try to filter it towards world.

How can I make the video? Yeah. You know,

Alison Cook: yes.

Trey Tucker: so over the last couple years there, I just realized like, not only was that not helping the content, it was mainly not helping me. I just felt like I was short tempered and tired all the time mentally. So now if I come up with an idea, I'll type it in a note in my phone and then I'll record it a whole lot less [00:10:00] formally than I used to do it.

And I'll care less if it does Well, and and as far as a parent, I mean. I'll tell you a story. You probably have something similar. I was in the grocery store about two months ago and I saw a daughter and her mom, the daughter looked to be around 14, 15 years old, a mom just walking around in front of her daughter on the phone, and I could tell the mom was watching some sort of, whether it's Instagram or TikTok, I don't know, but she was scrolling.

The daughter was not, and the mom continually was like. About to bump into stuff because she kept watching her phone and the the daughter said, ma, get off your phone and walk.

Alison Cook: Wow.

Trey Tucker: So we, as adults, we've gotta model it. We're brewing just as badly as teens are. And then so many parents they hand their kid a phone or some sort of device at such a young age, and that brings in all kinds of other horrific things like pornography.

But yeah, I think soon, very soon we're gonna realize. This stuff is gonna be like cigarettes ended up being in the fifties and sixties.

Alison Cook: [00:11:00] yeah, think there's a reason the Jonathan Hates book, the Anxious Generation has hits such a nerve. I, I dunno what you think about what he's saying or what he's,

Trey Tucker: fully agree?

Alison Cook: Yeah, what, what he's putting out there. But I, I think there's a reason so many of us are recognizing, I, I think to myself, I don't know how old you are.

 I grew up before really the internet. I, I got the internet in college, you know, email. and I am so grateful. because I know the way my brain works and, and I think it's different legitimately for different people, I think it would've been excruciatingly hard for me as a young girl comparing myself to others.

I, it's hard enough now, I cannot imagine what it would've been before my brain was formed, and I'm just so grateful.

Trey Tucker: Oh, it'd be, it'd be horrific. I, I tell people, especially the students that I teach, it's like there is an amount of money that I would take to go back into my teenage years, but. It we're talking like hundreds of millions to go back into this culture being a teenager, because whether it's social media or [00:12:00] just other influences.

Yeah. The, the comparison trap is just horrendous and I, I, for a girl especially, I can't even imagine

Alison Cook: Yeah. Yeah. I think about it. I, I live in a small town here most of the year. We live in the town. I grew up in Wyoming. In, there's something about a small town where there's still that sense of there's dignity in just a certain job working at a restaurant, being a postman, you know, I used to work at the local restaurant and there was like dignity in it and there's a place of belonging in an embodied community where it's like, oh, I see you.

I, I know you and, and I do this, and you do this. And together we make this community. Run. And, and there's this sort of togetherness in that, where everybody kinda has a place no matter what you're doing, you know, whether you're the mayor of town or whether you're, you know, I don't know, whatever.

And, I feel like that's what gets lost when you're comparing yourself to the globe.

Trey Tucker: right. Yeah. our brains were never designed to know what was going on in all [00:13:00] over the globe at any given moment. I mean, you're talking about a source of anxiety that that alone causes plenty. I.

Alison Cook: Yes, yes,

Trey Tucker: But the, the smaller town vibe, I'm, I'm jealous of you. 'cause I personally think that's really how we were all wired to live. I don't know if it was John Eldridge or somebody, he really mapped this out in a longer way. But the gist of it is he, he thinks we should all be still living in small villages of about a hundred to 150 people. Where relationships happen, like you're talking about, and everybody has a dignified royal and is seen and valued just because.

Everything is more manageable instead of just overwhelmed all the time.

‍

AD BREAK I

‍

Alison Cook: all right, Trey, switching gears, Are you trained in IFS or familiar with IFS?

Trey Tucker: I love IFSI, knew about it as a therapist, I was already trained in other things like CBT and e, MDR R and all the alphabets. But I always looked at IFS as this weird little thing where you have to like talk to things inside of you. Like, I'm not doing that. But [00:14:00] I got to a point in my own anxiety where I was like.

Ain't nothing else working. And I know a lot of tools that should be working. And so I went to a therapist who was trained in IFS as basically like a last resort, and it has changed my life. So ever since then, I've tried to get more and more training. 'cause I, I want people to experience what I've done through it.

So I'm assuming you're as well.

Alison Cook: I should send you a copy. So I wrote co-wrote Boundaries for Your Soul,

Trey Tucker: Oh, that's flying.

Alison Cook: adaptation of IFS. This's done pretty well among Christian therapists. So yes, I am familiar with it. It's really the heartbeat of everything I do, and it was it, to me, it was that perfect integration of.

Faith. 'cause we, we brought in, in IFS as you know, you know, the self is the center and we, brought in, we call it the spirit led self. The place where you collide with the spirit of God, with God's spirit. Right. That's where, it was just so life changing for me.

'cause I was like, oh, this is where it all comes [00:15:00] together.

 Like a part of me, loves being a therapist. A part of me is constantly pushing against therapy. a part of me, loves church and a part of me sometimes is like, Ugh, I don't like what they're saying.

You know,  it just kind of made sense of all of

Trey Tucker: Yep.

Alison Cook: Kind of competing kind of aspects to me, and they're all part of me. And so It's just a way to understand more of how we're made in the image of God, which means we're  really unique and parts of us get hurt, and that doesn't mean that all of us is hurt.

Trey Tucker:  Do you think it's accurate to say that IFS from a spiritual perspective takes us a little bit in a positive way back to a Genesis two, like pre Genesis three, pre fall kind of a look at ourselves,

Alison Cook: I never thought about it that way, but when people talk about, the heavy emphasis on original sin, I do always think to myself, but when God first made us, we were good. And I do think it's who we will become. when we're finally on the other [00:16:00] side, but, and we're not there yet, but there are glimmers of it.

And so, we kind of go through in Boundaries for Your Soul. When we go through that section, we talk about, , you know, in John 14 where Jesus says, I'm leaving you, but I'm leaving you with a comforter, a counselor who will come to be with you, who will come to live in you, which is the spirit. And so that becomes this. There is a place inside. Where suddenly we can connect to

Trey Tucker: Yeah.

Alison Cook: a glimpse of that truest version of ourself. That's the hope, right? 

Trey Tucker: Right, right. Okay. That's helpful. I'm gonna use that.  I'll give you credit. I promise.

Alison Cook: Well, I, um, 

I would love to hear from you as a guy—tell me a little bit more about your journey with anxiety and how that really unlocked things for you.

Because I get questions from listeners often. a lot of my listeners are love, Incorporated parts language, even if they've never done, you know, IFS therapy. But, how [00:17:00] do I help my, especially like my spouse understand this, I have mostly female listeners, or even my sons understand this.

So I'd love to hear your perspective on that.

Trey Tucker: Yeah. Yeah. Anxiety. I'm thankful for it. Both. Its positive traits and not so pleasant traits because I see now that it's actually trying to help me and I'm thankful for the unpleasant parts of it because it gives me more of an empathy for my clients who also have it, and, and it can be so, so uncomfortable.

And when I first started dealing with it, I. I was not a therapist, so I had really no tools. So I basically treated the anxiety as the enemy. Like, this is, this thing's trying to attack me, so I'm gonna hit it back. And, and then I would start to beat myself up for it. Like, why can't I just get rid of this stuff?

And I'd even, we alize it, like you mentioned earlier, like the won't be anxious for nothing. That's what Paul says. So, and that's, that's a whole nother soap box. But, it culminated. Into my first couple years of actually being a therapist, and I [00:18:00] still had it in my head. That anxiety was the enemy.

I don't think I would've said it like that, but that's, that's how I approached it with clients. And I think I gave them some short term relief, but I never was able to really help 'em get to the root issue. And then my own struggles with the anxiety internally kept coming up.

So I'm like, alright. Something's not working. I need, you know, the whole phrase, nothing changes. If nothing changes. I'm not very smart, but I'm at least smart enough to know I need to change an approach if it ain't working. So I thought, alright, I'll give this IFS thing a shot, even though it's the weirdest concept I've ever heard of, but I tell you where it helped me risk that that movie, uh, inside out.

Alison Cook: Yes.

Trey Tucker: And I'm normally not a cartoon watcher, but like when I saw that, I'm like, oh, okay, if you could look at emotions like this, then a couple things could be true. Number one, they're trying to help, they're just kind of misguided sometimes, and number two, they're not me, so I don't have to beat myself up for it.

So it's like I'm not my [00:19:00] anxiety, I'm not my thoughts. It's these other parts in me that think they're helping So in terms of mild own anxiety, yeah, One of my wounds, or like injuries that I talk about is the thought is not good enough and forgotten. Like, those two thoughts from past moments have been kind of the messages that have tried to stick around in me.

And thanks to IFS, those, don't weigh on me nearly as much anymore. But when I start to get anxious or some other, not so healthy emotion, then I start realizing like, okay. something's hitting this, bruise 

 you know, if somebody hits the bruise that we already have, physically, we're gonna overreact to that 'cause there's already pain. So anyway, long story short, IFS helped me realize, okay, I can actually connect to this little thing in there that's pumping the anxiety and.

 it took a long time 'cause there was so much skepticism and so much brain fog. But when I finally did connect with that part, I realized like, dang, this thing is [00:20:00] working overtime and, is very exhausted trying to help me out by scanning for possible things that might cause me more pain like I'd experienced in the past.

And it, it really like broke my heart in a good way for that part. 'cause it, it seemed like a little 5-year-old toddler that. Was really trying to do its best, but just didn't know any better, but it was working its tail off trying to help. 

Alison Cook: That's beautiful. You talk a little bit, I know in some of your content about father wounds.

Trey Tucker: mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: Is that come out of your own experience and how do you describe that for others?

Trey Tucker: Yeah, the answer to my own story is yes, and it's in everybody's story because just like we talked about a few minutes ago. Nobody got a perfect parent. Nobody got a perfect dad. Nobody got a perfect mom. And so the wins are gonna happen. Like, sorry, it's just a question of which ones are you gonna get.

And thankfully I had awesome [00:21:00] parents and as awesome as there were, there were still gaps. 'cause my dad's dad left the family when my dad was 10 years old. And so he never really had a model for like. Not just how to be a dad, but just how to grow into a man. And so he picked up a lot of, knowledge and skills along the way from mentors who invested into him.

But inevitably, there were still some parts that were kind of unfinished in him. And Any unfinished parts in us are gonna get passed along to how we treat our kids or the people around us. So, yeah, I, I've got my own father wounds and a book that really opened my eyes to this is called Fathered by God.

 it's also by John Eldridge. And I, would encourage women to read it as well, but it's really written for men because it, takes you through the stages of a man's life from brain hood. All the way through the elderly years. And it talks about like, here are the things that really ideally should happen to a boy as he becomes a man in each of these stages.

And most of the things that should happen to us [00:22:00] have to do with our father investing in us in some way. And so he also talks about the inevitable moments where a dad. is, you know, slightly imperfect or as as extreme as left the family altogether. And he shows, okay, here's how you can get what you missed out on from your relationship with God the father.

'cause ultimately, he's the perfect dad and we're his kids. And if we can let him father us, both as sons and as daughters, that's really what's gonna make us whole. So that's the. The gist of my journey, but I notice it in every single, person that I get deep enough with, but especially every client is there's at least a parent wound, partially responsible for whatever they're struggling with in the moment.

Alison Cook: I love how you're talking about it. I can tell just in this conversation, you and I share a sort of, really genuine longing for nuance because

Trey Tucker: Hmm.

Alison Cook: Right. It is true that we all have parent wounds. We just do. there's [00:23:00] no perfect family and that's also not to lay blame.

Trey Tucker: Right.

Alison Cook: I know my kids are gonna come to me, you know?

 they do. I think that's part of where the health lies, right? Is, they're like why did you just say that? Or you just broke a B, you know? And I'm like, oh, right. You know, like, 

Trey Tucker: Using those words against you, huh?

Alison Cook: just cannot. Be there at every moment and it is, you know, when you were talking about IFS and then you're talking about God, it, to me that was so much the power similarly for me is it took away blame.

I don't have to get this from my parents because I can now. Connect to the part of me that didn't make the basketball when I was in seventh grade and felt so ashamed and felt like I'll never be good enough and I'll never be chosen and I can find that part of me and God. there is a way to that part of me that, that no imperfect human.

 could reach and, that's just the reality of this [00:24:00] journey. so I really relate to a lot of what you're saying with all of that.

Trey Tucker: the nuance is key. 'cause like you said, if, if we allow ourselves to stay in blame, what we're really implicitly saying is that we're expecting earth to be heaven. And if earth is perfect in heaven, then we don't really need heaven. So like, I don't know, sorry, earth ain't perfect news flash. So even, even atheists who I think would, would agree with that statement, we got, we got some problems here.

So since it's broken, we can't expect. Perfection from other people.

Alison Cook: And so this gets at resilience, and you

Trey Tucker: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: talked earlier about this idea of fragility.

we have to be able to live in a world that will hurt us. How do you, and what's on your heart and what do you want people to know, whether it's your clients, whether it's listeners and all the work that you do about that?

Trey Tucker: Yeah. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. 'cause sometimes, I think I come across maybe too strong on it, but I keep reminding [00:25:00] people, you can handle this. And even if you can't fully handle this right now, you can build your strength to the point that you can eventually handle it. I come from a sports world and a weightlifting kind of world.

So for example, if, if I'm trying to. Back squat, 400 pounds, that's too much for me. Like I will collapse under that weight. But if I start with 200 pounds and slowly increase my ability to handle the weight little by little, then eventually I'll be able to handle 400 pounds. So I, I can do it.

It's not something that I can just, I need to walk away from forever. And I think handling challenges in life is the same way. It's like, yeah, it might be too heavy for you right now, but yeah. Just keep coming at it. 'cause you got the ability, you just gotta pull that ability out little by little.

But what's your vernacular for that?

Alison Cook: I love how you're saying it, and I, I hope you keep saying it, I heard a story and I can't remember where I heard it but it was a woman talking [00:26:00] about how her daughter was struggling and they were trying to get her into therapy. And I hear this all the time. I've gotta get my kid into therapy, and I, I have thoughts about that, that I'll, I'll set aside for now about kids in therapy, but.

And someone said to her, I wonder if she needs to get into a sport.

Trey Tucker: Mm. Yes.

Alison Cook: I don't think this is, I think sometimes the kid does need therapy, and that's not exactly what you're saying, but there are lots of ways we build those muscles to piggyback on your metaphor.

And one of them is for someone to get in there and, and help us see the parts of ourselves that, that have been broken and that are fragile and that need care and another way. Is to kind of build those muscles through life as a contact sport

Trey Tucker: Absolutely.

Alison Cook: the hard thing and to your point, not in a, don't throw yourself into something you cannot handle,

Trey Tucker: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: but to.

Walk into something that's gonna challenge you a little bit, that's gonna test you a little bit, that is [00:27:00] gonna be scary a little bit to see, oh my gosh, I can do it. And I do think that's that balance that we need in this, especially from our end, where there is a almost too quick, I gotta get my kid into therapy.

Trey Tucker: Yes.

Alison Cook: I, I, find myself sometimes like, again, I wanna be really clear for the listener. I think sometimes it a really great therapist can be helpful for your kid. And also, oh man, I don't know. There is another side to that. So I appreciate your speaking into that.

‍

AD BREAK II

‍

Trey Tucker: well I'm glad you said it about, therapy being helpful but not necessarily the right time or thing for a particular circumstance. 'cause you tell me what you think about this, but especially in a teenager if a parent talks to me about the option of therapy, one of my first.

The question slash suggestions is, alright. First, do they have any sort of community involvement, whether it's a sport or instrument where they're part of a band or something bigger than themselves that they're a part of and have to be relational and [00:28:00] work. Like you're saying, we're through difficulty building a skill, and number two, do they have anything where they're having to serve?

This doesn't necessarily have to be community service officially, but something like that, because I'm sure you've seen, how much research there is about that service is really one of the things that grows us the quickest at any age, but especially for a teen before they just dive into therapy. I wanna know those two things.

Alison Cook: Yeah, that's a really good, those are really helpful. I think for me, I'm looking at the parent and I'm thinking to myself, can the parent be a resource to kind of anchor the child as the child is, stepping into some of these 

 I wanna work with the parent to help equip the parent to help the child navigate what's hard. At the same time, I understand there are situations where the parent can't. And that's where then I see the therapist coming in, whether it's one parent, where that [00:29:00] therapist can come in as sort of the co-parent. or where the parents are just not able to do it and for whatever reason the therapist is kind of helping the kid navigate.

And so that's kind of how I've looked at it, is I don't think it should be a substitute. A therapist can be really helpful, but they're still not pulling the kid out of the hard things, they're empowering and equipping the, child, to navigate the hard thing. So I, I never wanna do it apart from parents. I always wanna do it kind of understanding the whole system there.

Trey Tucker: Yeah, I love that. What do we do in those situations when the parent almost can't help themselves but pull their kid out of a struggle?

Alison Cook: and to me, that then becomes a conversation with the parent you know, some education around, what they need most is to [00:30:00] know that you can be with them and you are not gonna buckle or fold during their hard time.

Trey Tucker: Yeah. Yeah.

Alison Cook: 'cause so often it's the parent's anxiety, you know, I can't handle it, that my kid isn't X, y, and Z.

And it's, well, then the kid's anxiety's really spiking 'cause they already feel it and then they feel yours.

Trey Tucker: Yeah. Responsible for Kim people.

Alison Cook: yeah. So try to help the parent be like, I get that this is hard. I hate it with you. when do I need to intervene? You know, if you're being bullied mercilessly at school, when do I need to advocate for you?

You know? When do I need to be that safe place when you come home and be like, you did it. You made it through another tough day, and I will be here every single day because I'm okay. You know? I think so often that's, the work for the parent, and You know, for me that's always been a tricky one.

I'm always wanting help the parent. 'cause I, I do gets back to what we were talking about. I do think it's such an important role. It's not everything, we're not [00:31:00] gonna be perfect, but the more we can grow, boy, that's what our kids need the most, is that we're gonna be okay. You know? And that 'cause that's what God, God doesn't always save us.

Out of everything. Right? But God is always right there going, I'm here. I'm not leaving. I see how brave you're being. I know it's hard, you know, you can come back to me. I'll heal your wound. I'll give you a big hug, and then we're gonna send you back out tomorrow. You know? I mean, there's a little bit of that back and forth that we have to learn as parents.

Trey Tucker: yeah, yeah, man. You're good at this. I, it's almost like you need to write a book or something, and I'm glad you're, working with parents so intently on that, because one of the things I've noticed when a parent pulls their kid out of a struggle, the message that gets sent to the kid is, you can't handle this.

Alison Cook: I know.

Trey Tucker: the parent would never say that verbally. But that's, that's the implied thing, is like, you can't handle it. Only I can. So sorry. You don't have what it takes and you're gonna [00:32:00] have to keep relying on me forever.

Alison Cook: So how do you, I know you do a lot of work with young adults. . .

Trey Tucker: Mm-hmm. I do, yeah. Most, of the people in their twenties and early thirties, and that's, it's such a, such a tough age range. I,I personally think that for a man, especially that age 22, 23 is at least one of the. Toughest times in his life, if not the toughest, because especially if he's gone to college, everything has changed his, his city has changed.

He's no longer a student. So part of his identity has changed, his friend group changed. His routine is changing. He's having to adjust to really the first real job and all the different pressures and expectations that come with that. So it is just a. Torrential downpour of new stuff to have to either move on from or adjust to.

And so often they come to me just struggling to, pivot and figuring out, uh, who am I now? And like, what do I do next? So it, that's my favorite age to work [00:33:00] with.

Alison Cook: and what are some of the things you're seeing? So you're kind of with Gen Z, some young millennials. What are, what are some of your, the things you're seeing that give you concern and also the things that give you hope?

Trey Tucker: Yeah, the, we'll start with concerns and get those outta the way. 'cause I think the concerns are pretty much universal, to the age, but maybe a little more emphasized in the twenties, is that they were the first generation to. spend a pretty decent amount of time of their youth having phones, if not in their hands, but in front of them.

And so a lot of my concern is not everybody here, but a lot of people at that age have a, I hate to say it, but a lack of ability to just talk face to face and. Connect and stick through maybe some of the awkward, silent moments of a conversation without immediately reaching for the phone to bail 'em out of the awkwardness.

general social skills is one of 'em. there is a. More of a self-focus, I think partly because of some of the therapy language that you were talking about earlier, like it's all about [00:34:00] self-love and your truth and all that. Like think that rubs off even in people that don't realize it.

But I also notice on the positive end, they can see through BS really quickly, I think, quicker than people in their thirties, forties, and up. And because of that, they see the cultural lie that is this whole hustle culture, and you gotta be rich by 25.

Like they'll fall for it for a little bit, but somewhere in those early twenties they realize like this. This is empty, this doesn't actually do what it's claiming to do. So they want a purpose and they, realize that there's a calling on their life and they're, really passionate about trying to discover that.

So those things gimme a lot of hope. But do you work with a change at all, or is it more in the thirties and up?

Alison Cook: Not as much, which is why I'm curious. you know, my own kids are in their twenties, so I get a little window through them, but also I get it through just my own forays and the reality television or, you know, whatever you're kind of seeing out there. and I just, I, I don't like,

 [00:35:00] stereotypes and also I, I know from my own IFS work and my own work, boy was I not quite ready and still forming. And we know this from brain research between like 20 and 26.

Trey Tucker: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: I mean, how much I still needed guidance and you're making major decisions.

Trey Tucker: Yeah. Maybe the biggest decisions in.

Alison Cook: I mean, and you're just expected to kind of hit 18 and go to college and be ready for all of this. And so the fact that you're stepping into that gap is just beautiful. To me, that's like a perfect time to, to go see a, a therapist or to kind of make sure you have that connection to someone a little bit older and wiser.

It's, it's so smart.

Trey Tucker: definitely. What do you notice with the folks you work with the most?

Alison Cook: I think some of what we're saying with the moms, it's the getting on top of our own. Stuff, our own [00:36:00] anxiety that, so we're differentiated from the stuff our kids are going through because so often, especially my generation, we're kind of now doing the inner work and going, oh, the anxiety I feel.

Is separate and different from the anxiety they feel. And so I've gotta do that work inside of me so that I can be this calm presence that's not reactive or not over parenting. Right. because we got a little bit more of the.

The CNA not heard childhood. Right. The, the less emotionally attuned, and there's pros and cons to that, right. You know, I grew up, again, we can celebrate the old days, you know, we're out in the streets until dark and nobody's checking on us, And there is a beauty in that.

And also there isn't as much, wasn't as much of that emotional attunement through the hard times. Right. So then we come in as parents and we're attuning to everything.

Trey Tucker: Right.

Alison Cook: Right. It's just so [00:37:00] fascinating, right. The cycles 

 and like it's actually what our kids need is for us to just be like, you're fine.

You know, like, you're gonna be okay, you know, uh, to some degree or another, you know, not to overstate it, but, so that's a little bit more of the always trying to help discern, you know, when it, when do I need to step in and when. these are just some growing pains and I'm here and I see it.

And also, you know, so it's, it's more that kind of thing. So, you know, I tell you what, just this conversation makes me realize how much we really all need to stay in conversation with each other. We need

Trey Tucker: Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's the biggest battle against the screens, is the screens are keeping us isolated and we were built for connection.

Alison Cook: Yeah. just this conversation with you has really, enriched, um, makes me feel like I see things more clearly and all that will trick out into the work that I'm doing. So I'm, I'm really grateful.

Trey Tucker: Me too. Same here with you. I'm glad we're gonna fight the wrong side each other. 'cause you, you're bringing perspectives and ways of saying [00:38:00] things that I hadn't thought of. So let, let's keep this going.

Alison Cook: I hope my listeners will come find you and maybe you could tell us where, folks, you know, can find you and they can listen to both of us and get different perspectives, but also a lot of like-mindedness.

Trey Tucker: Yeah, totally like-minded. I think we're saying the same thing, but just with different vernacular, so I want,my folks to connect with you as well. So on my side of the things at Rugged Counseling is the handle on pretty much everything, whether it's Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. All the things.

I've got, a podcast as well. I'm a rookie at it. I know you're, much more skilled at it than I am, and so I'm, I'm trying to get to, to your level at it, so it's out there too if people wanna see that. what's the podcast called?

Trey Tucker: it's called Rugged with Trades Hacker. I just, I'm a simple dude, so I just try to keep it all simple in names too,

Alison Cook: I think it's great. And this has just been a. [00:39:00]  delight. I'm just so grateful we got to connect in this way.

Trey Tucker: Me too. This has been awesome. How about my week right here. Thank you so much for your time.

Alison Cook: Thank you, Trey. 

‍

What does it take to make the church a safer place for women’s voices?

‍

This week Dr Alison is joined by husband-and-wife therapists Dr. Christy Bauman and Dr. Andrew Bauman, who are doing groundbreaking work at the intersection of women’s stories, embodiment, and spiritual safety. Together, they offer both prophetic challenge and practical hope for how we can build healthier faith communities.

‍

In the first half of the episode, Christy takes us into the sacred rites of passage women experience, highlighting women’s voices in the Bible. In the second half, Andrew shares from his extensive research, offering a vision for safe churches where power is shared, voices are honored, and healing is possible.

‍

Together, Christy and Andrew model what’s possible when men and women work side by side for change. 

‍

You’ll learn:

• The six symbolic rites of passage women experience over a lifetime—and why reclaiming them matters
• How Christy helps women see their bodies as sacred places of dignity and spiritual depth
• The results of their research with 2,800+ women who work in church settings
• A vision for churches where power is shared and women’s voices are truly honored 

‍

A note of care: This episode includes sensitive topics such as pornography, domestic violence, and harm related to women’s bodies. Please listen gently and step away if you need to.

‍

📕 Learn more from Christy and Andrew:

Christy Bauman’s Book: Her Rites: Women’s Rites of Passage, A Sacred Journey for Mind, Body, and Soul

Andrew Bauman’s Book: Safe Church: How to Guard Against Sexism and Abuse in the Church

📥Free Resources from Christy: 

• Body Map PDF
• Theology of the Womb Video Course (use code: TOTWcomp)

Learn more about their work at the Christian Counseling Center for Sexual Health & Trauma

‍

📥 Grab your 3 free Boundaries For Your Soul resources here.

📥 Download Alison’s free printable with the five boundary tools when you sign up for her weekly email.

‍

Here are related episodes you might like:

Episode 48: Loving Your Body as a Spiritual Practice, Why the Flesh Isn't the Body, and 3 Heresies We Kind of Believe

Episode 11: How to Start Loving Your Body with Christy Meeks

Episode 126: Restoring Wonder & Play in Intimacy - Navigating Sexual Brokenness, Safety, and Vulnerability with Therapist Sam Jolman

‍

💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

‍

Thanks to our Sponsors!

• Go to ⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
• Better sleep starts today! Get a birch mattress and test it out for 100 nights risk-free PLUS a discount for being a listener by visiting birchliving.com/BESTOFYOU.
• If you’re looking for a Bible that helps you live the Word, not just read it, then grab this beautiful one I’m currently using at NIVapplicationbible.com.
• For 20% off your order, head to Reliefband.com and use code BESTOFYOU.

‍

Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

‍

Transcript

‍

 Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of the Best of You. Today's episode is one I've been looking forward to sharing for a while now. It's two back-to-back conversations with a husband and wife team whose work is challenging, harmful norms and helping men and women move toward deeper emotional, spiritual, and relational health.

‍

Today's episode is a little different than what you've heard on the podcast before. In the first conversation I talked with Dr. Christy Bauman. Christy takes us into the lived realities of women's bodies, from menstruation to menopause, infertility to aging, and she reclaims these life cycles as sacred rites of passage.

‍

She helps us see the wisdom and spiritual depth embedded in each season, and she offers practical ways to reconnect with our bodies as places of dignity agency and God given worth. And then in the second conversation, Christy's husband, Dr. Andrew Bauman, also a therapist, shares from his own journey as a former pastor and now therapist, including his early struggles with pornography, his research with nearly 3000 women about their experiences in the church and his call for leaders to confront harmful messages about women, spiritual abuse and misuse of power.

‍

He offers a vision for safe churches, rooted in the example of Jesus, where power is shared, voices are honored and healing is possible for everyone. I wanted to air these two conversations together because they offer such distinct, yet beautifully complimentary perspectives on the same urgent issue, how to make the church a safer place for women's voices in particular.

‍

Side by side, their insights reveal not only the problem of how women's voices have been silenced, but also the power of what happens when men and women work together to create meaningful change. And when I had each of these conversations with Christy and Andrew, it just struck me how beautiful it is that they're doing this work together as a married couple, as a team, and in a culture where it's so easy for one gender to villainize the other, right?

‍

It's so easy for men to villainize women or for women to villainize men. I just found their partnership in tackling this important issue as such a refreshing reminder of what's possible when we learn to listen and honor and work together for the good of all. Before we begin, a quick note in these conversations, we do discuss sensitive topics including pornography, domestic violence, and experiences of harm related to women's bodies.Please take care while listening and step away if you need to. 

‍

Together, Dr. Christy and Dr. Andrew Bauman co-direct the Christian Counseling Center for Sexual Health and Trauma, where they lead intensives, workshops and retreats for individuals, couples, and groups. Christie is the author of Her Rites: Women's Rites, a Passage, A Sacred Journey From Mind, body, and Soul.

‍

And as you'll hear in today's episode, she's offering my listeners some free guides based on her work that we'll link to in the show notes. Andrew Bauman is the author of Safe Church, how to Guard Against Sexism and Abuse in the Church. It's based on his extensive research featuring the voices of nearly 3000 women about their everyday experiences in faith communities.

‍

Please enjoy my conversations with Chrisy and Andrew Bauman.

‍

Alison Cook:  Christie, I would love to just learn more about the why behind your life's work. You've spent so much time not only working one-on-one. As a clinician, but just really digging into some key ideas, especially as it relates to the body and women's bodies in particular. What originally motivated you and what still drives you to keep doing this work?

‍

Christy Bauman: I do love that question because it is what I wake up with every day, which is a female body, and so much of what I do in my career has been based on the story that God gave me, and mostly the body to be formed in the Imago day, but to be female is quite an interesting journey. Well, it has been for me because I grew up in southern rural Louisiana, and the idea that.

‍

You were a female who wanted to love God and serve God, and I felt called to preach the gospel, like there was something in me that was such a storyteller and this story of Jesus. I was so ready to tell the story. And one of my favorite moments was when I learned that the first person Jesus revealed himself to was the woman at the well.

‍

And that she ran from him saying, I'm going to tell your story to everyone. And he said, I was really hoping you would do that. And so I wasn't really under the impression that I could be a disciple. The 12 disciples as I grew up, they were all men. And every part of the story, every pastor I knew was male.

‍

And while I wasn't necessarily sad about that, I didn't know where I belonged in this female body. And it put me on a long journey of, Lord, is there something you want me to be particular about in how I use the feminine that is within me to bring your story to the world? And so. You know, a lot of that before I was in grad school was just looking at theology around women's stories in the Bible.

‍

And so even Eve, she's not made from dust like Adam, she's made from bone. And so we are struck just from the very beginning that there's a difference in the makeup of her body. And as we look at the stories of the women in the Bible, we see that they were about the business of the body. Whether that was about birthing or burying, there is something in the continuation that they understood the body.

‍

So then as I went to grad school and started to understand psychology and women's wellbeing and women's psychological wellbeing and spiritual wellbeing, I started to realize that we can't leave the body out for the female. 

‍

Alison Cook: It's so interesting to listen to you because even in science, our daughter is starting out on a journey into medical school, right?

‍

And there's such an absence of research, specifically we're seeing in this, in menopause research about women's bodies. Because so much of the scientific research in the medical community has been done by men and on men's bodies as if they're the same. And I remember hearing a woman, she's at Stanford, and I cannot remember for the life of me right now, what her title is, but she's talking about fitness and wellness.

‍

And her quote is, women are not small men, they're different. And so the things that apply to men, especially even if you think about the wellness space, which is so different from what you and I are talking about today. Similarly, if we apply what works for men's bodies, for females, it's different. And so I'm intrigued by what you're saying 'cause there's sort of almost this absence of information and knowledge and deep and meaningful understanding, and I really appreciate that you're speaking directly into that space in this realm of both psychology and theology. 

‍

Christy Bauman: It was so helpful to go down that avenue and really to start to look at the mind and the bodies and the hormones of women and the life cycle of women to understand that we are different and that we need to know the difference.

‍

It's helpful to us, like it's actually a gift that we are different. 

‍

Alison Cook: So let's talk about it a little bit. There's two aspects of your work I think is really interesting and I'd love for you to kind of dig in for us. One is this idea of the six symbolic rites of passage that women experience over a lifetime and how those kind of help us understand embodied healing.

‍

I think that's really interesting, but then also just on a broader scale, you talk about life cycles in general and how we all go through cycles of life and how that's kind of something none of us is very good at. There is a winter in all of our lives, but how that particularly maps onto these six rites of passage for women. Could you talk a little bit about what those are and how they help us understand not only our bodies, but our emotions and our spiritual lives? 

‍

Christy Bauman: Yes, and it's so much to talk about. It is always hard for me to condense it. We as women have very little time and we don't slow down and spend as much time on our bodies, but I do think we serve a God who created us, demanding us to slow down for our own wellbeing and our own health.

‍

And I think as we look at the changing leaves or look at the amount of time the sun is out or the darkness is out, it's God's invitation to us to slow down into the season that we're in. And that constitutes with the age of our children or the age of our marriage. And when we actually get into those particularities.

‍

There's nowhere better to be than right where you are. And the healthiest Jew is actually very clear, like God was kind in making not just a liturgical calendar, but a calendar for us in the world based on our age and our story and our life circumstance, and the seasons of the place we live and the seasons that our own family or whatever we're creating in our story is at.

‍

And so I always begin with story work. You can't do body work before you've done story work. We can see that in the Bible. It's always a story told. And then when we close the Bible and we close that story, we apply it to our bodies and where we are in our current life. And so the rites of passage that I wrote is psychologically a really old model.

‍

It's an old model of understanding that we have a first breath and we have a last breath. Each one of us and only you and I will have our first breath and our last breath. No one else is going to share that with us. And those are the bookends of the rites of passage. So we start with birthright. Then we end with Legacy.

‍

The next one after birthright is we are initiated. So usually for the female, it's when she bleeds for the first time. It's when she is kissed for the first time. It's those coming of age moments where she knows something that she didn't know prior. She was naive too, and then she tasted of something and she had knowledge in a way that initiated her into knowing.

‍

So there's a sense of where our body from First Breath is. Then adolescing, it's growing up. 

‍

Alison Cook: I wanna pause and double click on this for one second. Christie, I hear so many stories from women in particular. It's so interesting that you're talking about this as a rite of passage. I have such a complicated relationship with that in my own life.

‍

There's so much shame around it, and I hear so many women talk about that being a time when maybe parents disappeared. Dads didn't know what to do, backed off psychologically. We do see that often when parents don't know how to be present to that particular rite of passage for a young girl. And I know the same could be told about boys.

‍

We're just talking about women here because I know like Sam Jman has done some great work with boys and how important that is. But I hear that story, you know, it's like my dad just didn't know what to do with me, so he was just gone. And that was heartbreaking to me. So I just kind of wanna pause there. It's not just biological. It's such a psychologically and spiritually crucial moment for young girls. 

‍

Christy Bauman: Well, and the process of letting go and leaving, it's very vulnerable. And so when we're birthed and we take our first breath, and that's the first time we're outside of our mother's body and her care and her protection.

‍

And so initiation is when our little bodies start to try something on. And it's often where harm and neglect happens, and sometimes abuse, right? Because it's such a vulnerable precipice of time and we don't have the knowledge yet in our own bodies. And if we have a parent who doesn't know how to come alongside or is distracted, so a lot in initiation, I will ask a question.

‍

Is the first time you bled who was around to help you understand that? Where was your mother? Or what did it look like around that story of your bleeding? Because bleeding is such a vulnerable thing and. Here, women are being invited to understand, okay, now I have a body that bleeds and I have to tend to this body.

‍

How do I do that? And there's so much shame and embarrassment around it, and there's so much a sense of covering it up. Just flush it down the toilet, just cover it and go and do what you need to get yourself clean. We've missed so much biblically and psychologically with helping girls who are becoming women understand that this is actually the work for them, for the rest of their life, that this is actually going to lead them into creation.

‍

So you are so right that these stories are usually where evil marks us, because we are so vulnerable, they're vulnerable junctures

‍

Alison Cook:  That's so well stated. So what comes next? 

‍

Christy Bauman: Then the right of exile, which means that you get left alone. So every woman has known, once she realizes that her body is hers sharing it becomes complex.

‍

And so whether that's with friendship, whether that's in relationship with someone, whether that's with how she's starting to leave her parents and their safety, or that they've already left her, whatever the story looks like. The right of exile is a rite of passage where we've all known what it means to be put in the desert rejection or being left alone where it's us and God in a desert, and we are waiting on his voice to come to us.

‍

And do all women go through that as a sort of rite of passage? Well, historically, yes. There was always a season in which you were sent to the desert. You know, Jesus' story of being in the wilderness and the fasting and where he's tempted. It's the same for the female. She is in the desert and she is trying to figure out what to do with knowing God's voice and her own voice.

‍

She will hear the voice of her mother, whether that's good or bad. She will hear the voice of those jealous of her or who have envied her. She'll hear the voice of being abandoned, or you are by yourself and you find yourself. And then we know when that is done that we are then invited to the rite of creativity or creation.

‍

But it's part of that process that every woman will know that she starts out with her first breath, and that's when she is given a birthright. And then initiation is the first time she bleed. And then exile, is that part of her where she's finding herself. 

‍

And then the rite of creation is, what does it mean to break open your body to birth something? I am impregnated with an idea. I birth my podcast. I birth a book that I've written. I birth a physical child that I want to have some dream that she has because we are co-creators. God was really different with women than he was with men when he made us physical co-creators. And we bear life in our womb and we bear the ability to create.

‍

And so that breaking of our body open is the rite of creation. It's understanding how do we break our body open. To create life unto something and knowing that if we follow the women in the Bible, women who are at tombs, so it's like Risa and Abigail who were wives of Saul and they had their sons crucified against their will, and they had to care for their children's bodies after they were crucified.

‍

And so their story in the Bible is a huge one where women are asked to do something when death comes upon the scene. And then you have Mary and Martha, who is that Lazarus tomb, and they have to know what to do with the tomb, how to prepare the body. Then you have that same Mary, Mary, the mother of Jesus and slo.

‍

There are five women at the tomb and they are washing Jesus' body, wrapping it, anointing it with oil, getting it ready. For what we now know was resurrection. The work of the female that she learns in the rite of creation is there's a sense of breaking and bleeding open, much like the crucifixion, so that it's unto creating life.

‍

And so I'm taking these narratives and I'm trying to look at them from the female body's perspective because it's just not common for us to do that. 

‍

Alison Cook: It's in the shadows. We don't highlight it. We're looking at it through the lens of men as opposed to kind of highlighting it, putting a spotlight on these different rituals are distinctly feminine and it's really honoring, and I feel in my body listening, I'm like, gosh, it's so interesting to hear about these rituals from a female perspective where it's sort of honoring and I mean, there's pain in it and it's raw, and we kind of have a sense of that, of the male journey even in our movies, right?

‍

You know, there's the warrior and there's some violence to it, and there's this, and there's that. You know, we as women, I think, kind of almost know how to celebrate that on behalf of men. You know, there's some of it that's hard and painful and it's very bodily, and also it is part of our narrative collectively, biblically, psychologically.

‍

And the thing that comes to mind theologically, I think about the Pascal mystery for my listeners. If you go to a liturgical church, you every Sunday say, you know, the mystery of faith is this Christ has died. Christ is risen, Christ will come again. Right? There's that cyclical nature of death, resurrection coming again, that we participate in the lifecycle of.

‍

Christy Bauman: So that's why we start birthright is that females are not highlighted in the Bible as having a birthright. It's the first born son. So if you are a second or further born son, or you are a female, there's not really an understanding of birthright. And so what you just named is we as believers when we commit to this work, we say we join.

‍

This cycle, and I'm just going in and pulling out the particularities of what that looked like for females. Because in the Bible, females were about the work of the red tent, so the bleeding, the birthing, and mid wifeing of children and the next generation, and then being at the tombs, being at the bodies when they're sick.

‍

And when they're dying, they even buried the bodies with the faith that they were going to be resurrected. Now, did they think that was on earth? No. I think those first believers knew Jesus, whatever you're doing, we believe that there's a bigger story. You've told us there's something on the other side of this, so we are going to do your work.

‍

And the work for the female is I'm going to bleed. I am going to birth or help birth, and then I'm going to help birth death, help you die and tend to the body along the way. 

‍

Alison Cook:   Christie, how does this map on for you personally, because I know that what you're, you're not saying this is women's work. I know you're not saying that. Right. There's something deeper, there's some claiming of our story as women that is honored—and—I could imagine there are also ways in which that narrative of your job is just to have kids and tend to, people can get weaponized.

‍

Christy Bauman: Oh, a hundred percent. For women who write in and say to me, I can have children, what does that mean? I've had a hysterectomy at 25. What does that mean? Right. And so why I am trying to take that psychological sort of rite of passage is it's not actually about physically having a child and birthing a child, but for the most part, all of us women bleed and we will all stop bleeding.

‍

And all of us as women take our first breath and take a last breath. And so I'm just asking us to step back and look at the cycle that's happening for us, and also the idea that we are in our bodies in a different way than men are. And so that is actually to our benefit. Even if it's hard for us, if we don't shy away from it, it can be our superpower.

‍

Alison Cook: I've thought about this 'cause I'm menopausal, and first of all it's very new. I think generationally that we're actually talking about this as women publicly, which I cannot imagine what it must have been like when we weren't so true. And I have thought about it a little bit of like what is the meaning of this for women?

‍

Because it does feel like a closing down and I didn't have biological children. So for me there's that layer. But I just wanna reiterate, you're onto something here by. Helping us understand the reality of, and also the deeper meaning of what does it mean for us as a woman? 

‍

Christy Bauman: Your segue actually is perfect.

‍

Your question of what do I do with perimenopause? Why are we talking about it now? What does it mean? It almost sounds like a fertility death. It almost sounds like we are falling asleep. And what does that mean? And that is in the heartache of ageism, right? It's something like, just stop whatever's coming for us.

‍

Slow it down. Let me be in my rite of initiation again, and my rite of creation. But truthfully, these rites of passage, they happen again and again, but we are collecting them. So right after we're creating. We go into intuition and that's perimenopause. The rite of intuition is when we know what we know, and so where maybe a 20-year-old or 30-year-old in our society is put as the look, we need to have power or be visible in our culture.

‍

The lie of it is that the 40, 50, 60-year-old, she knows something that little girls don't know, that even young women and young mothers don't know. She knows something of survival and of wisdom, and that's why we call her the sage femme, the wise woman. This is what right we're in, and you can't take what she knows away from her.

‍

I can remember waking up at 40, waking up at 45, and feeling different in my actual waking hours, like I didn't care as much as I did when I was 20 or 30, and I wasn't as scared. As I was when I was in my twenties or my thirties, there is something of growing into this body of mine that I started to shed some of those more immature, younger places.

‍

That's something that I don't think we have a culture or society that honors that, and so perimenopause is this beautiful invitation for wise women to have a platform and to speak the wisdom that man, those 20 and 30 year olds. Need us desperately to say, Hey, you are not going to grow old and wrinkled and you have to be afraid of sagging breasts and a terrible sex life.

‍

Like we need to tell them a deeper truth. But there is so much almost again, hiding around it, even though you would say we're at a day and age where women are starting to talk about it. Finally, those women are realizing, I'm not all washed up just because my hormones are changing and my body's changing.

‍

Alison Cook: Yeah, I love that. The wisdom era, and again, the more we talk about that in name, that the more we're bringing it. What comes after that? 

‍

Christy Bauman: So next is the right of legacy. And so it's what story are you leaving? So the wise woman is also the initiator. So she gets to be the one who goes back to those going through the right of initiation and she gets to be the protector.

‍

Think of the wise sage who is there while the younger girls are vulnerable. But when those wise women are actually just trying to keep their bodies and trying to hold onto their youth, they're no longer available to protect and lead the younger generation. And so when they aren't stepping into their wisdom or asking their mothers or their fathers to step in and be protectors of those in initiation, then we've realized that.

‍

We've told those women and men, they're not needed. They're perimenopause, they're dying off. And actually we so desperately need them because again, if you pull out into that macro system, we need to keep this going. Like there's something of the maturation that is inviting us into new life. That is what God's all about is this cycle of the new life.

‍

Alison Cook: I find that so powerful. And there's a couple things you're saying I think that are so important to hear, and it gets back to what you're saying about vulnerability. So whether it's perimenopause, whether it's moving into that kind of intuition era, whether it's the legacy, it's vulnerable, there's a death, and you talk about in your work how we have to be willing to talk about that and face those small deaths and there's a vulnerability to the culture, to pain, to abuse, you know, all the things. 

‍

But if we are able to move through, we actually move into even more of our God-given birthright, more of our God-given agency, what we have to offer, what we have to bring. 

‍

Christy Bauman: Yes, we're right there at legacy. What are you leaving that is gonna come after you, long after you're gone? And the work of the rite of intuition is you are doing things that will outlive you and you're wise enough to know that. And so you are going to invest in the things that leave the world after you and the generations after you impacted because of how you're living.

‍

And that wisdom then, is our legacy when they say, do you remember Allison Cook? Do you remember her words? Do you remember that one podcast when she spoke about this? It has stayed with me. It stayed with me in my kitchen when I'm cooking dinner. It stayed with me. When I'm walking in the forest on a hike, as I've aged, there's something of legacy that again, is about resurrection.

‍

It keeps living on past us. That's a beautiful and hard part of the journey. 

‍

Alison Cook: Yeah, it is. I love that language of rite of passage. There's beauty in that, but there's hard in that. You're going through a birthing, to your point, which also involves letting go of something. 

‍

Ad Break 1

‍

We talked to your husband, Andrew. I know you guys do some work together in trying to create space for women's stories, space for couples, but in particular space for women's stories. I know you've surveyed. Thousands of women. And you did this together, is that right? Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about your work together and some of your most powerful takeaways as it relates to how you guys are really leaning into this work of coming alongside women and also couples in your work?

‍

Christy Bauman: Yeah. Andrew and I were both, did our masters at a seminary in psychology, two different seminaries. But what we both realized was that women's voices were not being invited to the table. And Andrew was seeing in his own work and in his own story, how he was, in a sense groomed to treat women a certain way and to objectify them and therefore not see them as an equal or hear their story.

‍

And then I was coming from this place of wanting to bring my voice into the work and realizing that there was a lot of loopholes that I had to get through in the Traditionary seminary world. And again, why choosing psychology and science was a little bit safer for me because I was a female who was bringing stats and information that could actually be heard and listened to.

‍

And so I think in us getting married, there was that work where he saw. The need and the importance for a good team to work together. We need the feminine and the masculine to come together to share God's story in completion and in wholeness. And so the advocacy was, well, if we look at the Western Church, the female voice has been marred and has been silenced.

‍

And so the Enneagram eight that he is, he went on rampant to help women bring their voices back and make safe places. And he believes that the church can be a safe place for women. Again, that's his hope. And he comes back to that scripture of, you know, has been laid down your life for your wife and give yourself up for her as Christ did for the church.

‍

And his belief is that he wants to lead a revolution of safe churches, for women's voices to be brought and that cohesion that's needed to get this work done. And. I, like I mentioned earlier, came into the world, female. And so, you know, my love for God was, Lord, teach me the way you want me to go. And so the research was, well, every woman for 16 years that walked into my counseling office was sharing a story of where she had been targeted or harmed.

‍

There are not stories of women who, it was easy for them to be in a place of power. It does not come easy. And usually their bodies are the ones that are targeted or objectified or marked along the way. When they try to bring their voice, their entire body is usually targeted. And so I started to just take in that information.

‍

How do I help women live longer, speak from their true voice? And my husband was, how do we make a safe place for women to do that in the Christian realm? 

‍

Alison Cook: It's really amazing. It's why I wanted to talk to both of you, because I just think there's something really powerful that you're doing it together, this work, and you bring very different voices culturally.

‍

One thing that can happen is there can be a lot of scapegoating and blaming. I mean, I think that's definitely happened to women for sure. And also it can also happen toward men. I'm always just someone of nuance. It's like, wow, what could it look like if we're trying to kind of right some of the wrongs, bring in more of the female voice, but also do it in a partnership.

You're embodying something really beautiful to me. 

‍

Christy Bauman:  Yeah. I mean, it feels like a great, like, blessing of you saying that over us, I really appreciate it because I know it hasn't been easy, and I also am just aware of, again, in this individualistic culture, we are taught in a sense to protect ourselves. Or if it's for women, it's for women. If it's for men, it's for men.

‍

Alison Cook: and there's a bad guy and a good guy, and the guys are the bad guys, or the women are the problem.

‍

Christy Bauman:  And so in that, it's really important for us to come back to if we are made in the imago day, if both male and female are made in the image of God and the masculine and the feminine reside in all of us. All of us bear a little bit of masculine energy and feminine energy, and one is more dominant than the other, but in that it's to know God, it's to know God, and to really see God's face to me is to study that.

‍

And so I do think it isn't that common, and I hope it becomes more common, and I think it is the way of the future for us to be successful in actually moving forward in wellbeing and health, spiritual health in psychological health. I think in physiological health. I think when we start to understand, like you said at the beginning, your daughter's journey in medical school, we know research, particularly in rural doctor's office for women, is 10 to 15 years behind if that's with our medical system.

‍

Can you fathom, like you said, the psychological or spiritual research that we're missing out on. So, man, let's catch up with our female understanding so that then when we put the masculine and the feminine together, both healthy, it will be a revolution we can move forward. And that I think is what Christ was saying about the church, right?

‍

Is that we've got to move into that. But it's been doing a lot of research and asking a lot of women. What has worked, what has not? Where have you been targeted? What parts of your body have been marked or not? And so I think for your listeners, while I do have my book, her Rites, and it goes through each rite of passage, while that can be an incredible resource for women, I would say it's a year of therapy in one book.

‍

And that was my intent when I did it. But what I really would love is that we're gonna put a body map exercise, A PDF. And I think if women could just print out this body map and do this exercise, you can do it one time. You can do it as many times as you want, and you are just trying to map out your scars.

‍

The invisible and the visible, what you've created and what you haven't, how you've been marked, what it's cost you to be birthed and to create in this world. What exile has looked like for you, where you think your legacy is going to come from? Usually the part of the body that we hide the most, it's the one that has the most to say.

‍

And so I would just tell women like, this could be a great practice to do a body map.I've used thousands of these ways of mapping each individual's story on their bodies. We also wanna give the video course for my previous book, theology of the Womb and More Scripture based and historical understanding of what does it mean to bleed, what does it mean to birth, what does it mean to bury?

‍

I have a video course that we wanna gift for free to your listeners if they wanna do that. It's a lot easier if you don't have time to sit and read. 

‍

Alison Cook: Amazing, so generous with your time and your talents and the wisdom that God has given you. We're so grateful. Thank you for being here with us today.

‍

Wasn't that such a powerful conversation with Kristi? I love how she brings forth women's voices in the Bible alongside our own lived experiences in our bodies, these incredibly formative milestones, these rites of passage where we can feel so vulnerable and where so many of us have experienced harm, where we can feel so vulnerable.

‍

Yet when we learn to reclaim them, they become tremendous opportunities to grow and to more of our God-given selves, and especially as women reflect the face of God into this world. Now we're gonna shift into my conversation with Andrew Bauman. While Christie speaks more from her personal experience as a woman, Andrew's gonna give us more of a guy's perspective looking at church culture and what it takes to truly create safe churches.

‍

I think you'll notice how their work overlaps in such a beautiful way and how it takes all of us men and women to bring real change. Let's dive into my conversation with Andrew Bauman.

‍

Alison Cook: Andrew, I'm thrilled to have this conversation with you today. 

‍

Andrew Bauman: Yes, I am as well. Thank you for having me. 

‍

Alison Cook: before we dive in, I wanna find out from you, you've been a pastor, you're now a therapist. We'll get into that, but more to the point, I wanna know what circumstances in your own life, in your own work led you to write a book about guarding against sexism and abuse in the church as a guy.

‍

Andrew Bauman: Totally. There's a few different entry points. So number one, I was a pastor. I also had a hidden addiction to pornography for about 13 years. I was realizing that a degrading view of women and an oppressive theology was kind of mixing with my mindset. And so that was one entry point. I've been sober for about 15 years now of pornography and just realizing, wow, this is actually fairly normal, what I went through as a pastor, but also kind of mixing a degrading view of women and a sexist theology.

‍

There's some tie there. So that was one entry point. The other entry point is my own origin story. So my father was also a pastor, but a prominent evangelical leader in the eighties. He was a vice president of a evangelical Christian college, and he also had a hidden sexual life, cheated on my mom for 20 something years, and that kind of blew up when I was seven years old.

‍

So my mom went numb to survive her own trauma, and then I found myself, you know, going to church. Five times a week and you know, kind of an orphan. And the church took me in, the church began to mother me, father me. And so those were a few entry points of kind of the why so much. You know, I dedicated this book to my mom and just kind of watching her struggle, longing to be a good Christian wife, whatever that meant.

‍

And yet my father's inability to love her well or become a healthy man himself. And then in 2018, I read a study called The Elephant in the Valley, which was a study on sexism in Silicon Valley. And then I was like, huh. I wonder about another male dominated space that I know very well. Like I wonder what those statistics are.

‍

I wonder what that is. So that kind of set me in 2018 on the journey to begin to discover, okay, what are women saying about their own experiences of sexism and abuse in the church? 

‍

Alison Cook: Tell me a little bit about the move from being a pastor to being a therapist. 

‍

Andrew Bauman: Yeah, it didn't last very long, you know, it was a year and a half or so just realizing I couldn't be as honest as I wanted to be.

‍

You know, I enjoyed the teaching, but I realized I had this big story of trauma, my own sexual abuse, my own stories of addiction, and I just felt like I wasn't being real. I wasn't being as authentic as I wanted to be. So I, you know, began to read some of Dan Allen's books 25 years ago or something, and kind of realized, okay, I kind of want to go in this direction and want to be more authentic with my life. Life and actually help people in a deeper way. 

‍

Alison Cook: Okay, so there's a lot to unpack here. You've spent the last three years conducting research and really listening to the stories of women. You've surveyed over 3000 women, is that right? In church settings? 

‍

Andrew Bauman: Yeah. Yeah. Over 2,800 women. Yeah. 

‍

Alison Cook: And gimme some highlights of what those stories revealed about women's experiences.

‍

Andrew Bauman: Yeah, so these are women that worked in the church. So 16% of them worked 25 years or longer in the church. Another 25% worked 16 years or longer in the church. So these are women in the front lines of ministry and a few of the significant discoveries were 82% said they believe sexism plays a role in their church.

‍

What is sexism? You know, think of prejudice, discrimination, stereotyping, just because of someone's sex. There's different types of sexism. We won't go into that, but 82%. I was blown away. Maybe as women or women listeners, maybe you won't be surprised, but me as a male are like, that's a lot.

‍

A few of the other significant results, 62% of women said they wouldn't be surprised if they heard a sexist joke in church, right? So women in the kitchen, women drivers like this is stuff I grew up with hearing and became normalized. And then in 2008, Dr. Thomas Ford did some research called More Than Just a Joke.

‍

And what he realized, what he came up with is he said, sexist humor acts as a releaser of preexisting prejudice and antagonistic attitudes that one already has about women. So it's a releaser, it's a release valve. So what that is saying is that these pastors are already have a low view of women and already have a sexist view of women.

‍

And in a sense, these sexist jokes that are so common that these women shared with me are normative and it's incredibly sad. 

‍

Alison Cook: I almost wanna back into this question because we know this isn't how God sees women. We know this isn't how Jesus. Sees women, right? So how does a church become a place where this is okay?

‍

Andrew Bauman: Yeah. I mean there's so many different, there's so many different avenues. You know, I tend to think, you know, 'cause I work with a lot of men and unwanted sexual behavior, some of barn's, research of 50% of pastors have some type of relationship with pornography. You know, I see that as one entry point. I also see incredibly simple interpretations of scripture that have been used and weaponized and interpreted in a certain way that is so heavily impacted by patriarchal societies of the Bible.

‍

You know, early Roman Greek culture. And then the sexist interpretations have then eased their way into the norm and they think that's what God wants. And so a few of these scripture verses, which we, you know, we can dive into if we want, but they've become, oh, this is how God sees women. This is how God wants the church to run.

‍

And really it's based on misogyny. It's based on actually a deep hatred of women and not on what God actually wants. 

‍

Alison Cook: So I hear what you're saying. There's a lot of different ways that it kind of sneaks in. I don't even know if it sneaks in the back door, comes in the front door and gets embedded in a theology that whether well intended or harmfully intended almost reinforces this low view of women. And then women to some degree might internalize some of this and it creates this sort of entangled. Mess. 

‍

I wanna understand the relationship between what you're describing and spiritual abuse, abusive cultures. 

‍

Andrew Bauman: You know, spiritual abuse is one of the most vile of all abuses, right? You have emotional abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse, financial abuse, physical abuse, all these abuses.

‍

But you know, simply thinking of abuse as power over rather than power shared. And when you throw in spirituality, when I as your spiritual leader represent God, like that's the ultimate Trump card in a sense. I can do whatever I want to retain power and control over others if I have God on my side. So it's incredibly dark because who can argue with God, right?

‍

And so when God is used in that manipulative way, the harm is deep. And so many women who are just like, I don't go to church anymore. I've lost my faith. But many of 'em said, no, actually I love Jesus more than ever. I just, I can't be a part of a church. I can't be a part of the system. Right? And it reminds me of the legendary Diane Langberger, her quote in her book, redeeming Power, she says.

‍

People are image bearers of God, not systems. We're called to speak truth to power, but many times we feel like we can't actually speak the truth to the system. And yet the system itself isn't the image bearer of God, it's actually the ones who are a part of the system. 

‍

Alison Cook: How do men in particular, disentangle from bad theology, disentangle from this idea of power over versus shared power? I had a conversation with Sheila Ray Gregoire, and we talked about how harmful messages definitely harm women and also harm men because this isn't what God means by spiritual leadership, whatever that means. 

‍

Andrew Bauman: Right, exactly.

‍

Alison Cook: How do men begin to do this work of disentangling from these harmful toxins? I know, you know, don't tell sexist jokes, but it's deeper than that. It is. It's much deeper than that. 

‍

Andrew Bauman: I mean, one, we've gotta first see that there is a problem, right? Because of our privilege, because that we don't, well, I don't experience it.

‍

I didn't hear that joke. It doesn't impact me. We have to realize this is an issue. We are the ones perpetrating it. I say it time and time again, you know, domestic violence, sexual abuse, like who are the main perpetrators of these things? It's mostly men. Yes, women abuse, of course, but yet the statistics say mostly men are perpetrating domestic violence.

‍

So we've gotta realize we've got a violence problem. We've gotta begin to do the hard work. And especially for, you know, church leaders. You can't lead others where you haven't gone yourself. So if you haven't done work on your own sexuality, if you haven't begun the hard therapeutic work of self-discovery, you've got to, you've gotta look at your own life.

‍

What was femininity to you growing up? What was masculinity? What was your socialization of being a man growing up? Like you've gotta do that hard work and unlearn so you can relearn. Actually, I think what's much more God pleasing and much more mutuality. And I'm reminded of the verse, Galatians 3 28, right?

‍

There's no Jew or Greek, no slavery free, no male or female, but we are one in Christ. There's no hierarchy in Christ. And yet, if you grew up in a much more traditional home and you saw, okay, a woman played this role. Man played this role. Not necessarily wrong if that's what they mutually agreed to, but so many times, and I hear time and time again with the men that I work with is, no, this is God's role.

‍

This is what she has to do to fulfill her call. And what we've really confused, kind of patriarchal norms and sexist attitudes, as you know, theological in God, honoring.

‍

Alison Cook: and to come again to this idea of how Jesus saw women, right? This is the actual model of what a guy needs to try to get to the root of, not only for her health, and this is what always feels so important to me to say. But also for his health. 

‍

Andrew Bauman: Yes. That was a huge thing of realizing, interviewing all these women and then realizing, wow, how we have treated women. And then when I begin to look at Jesus' life, the disconnect is just wild because here he is, you know, just breaking down these huge barriers for women, right?

‍

When Jesus starts his ministry, what Jesus is born into is this wildly oppressive Roman rule. And then Jesus comes in, you know the story, one of my favorites is the woman at the well, right? In John four. And the Samaritan woman is not only oppressed by her own people, she's an outcast among outcasts. And then Jesus goes up and he offers a drink to share spit with an unclean woman.

‍

I mean, it's so scandalous, right? It's so wild. And then he tells her he's launches his ministry. Go tell the world. Go tell the world who I am, and it's like, oh wow. Right. The story of the alabaster jar, you know, in Luke 7 36, the Canaanite woman in Matthew 1521 and the other amazing one of Mary Magdalene in John 20.

‍

The most important of the gospel, the resurrection. He says, I'm gonna entrust this to a woman to go preach and tell the world that I have risen. And yet growing up, that was the most absurd thing to hear a woman preach. Like, I remember I'm about to go to grad school and looking for a job in Seattle. And I was like, oh, I could do this youth pastor.

‍

'cause I was a youth pastor at the time and a college pastor. I was like, I could do this youth pastor stuff in my sleep and you know, make money on the side and, you know, it'd be easy. And so I applied, I was in a national search and I was down to the final, like two people. So I had an interview with, you know, the deacon board.

‍

I'm making 'em laugh and I've got the job in the back and they finally ask at the end of the interview, do you know that we have a woman pastor? And I like almost fell outta my seat. I didn't even know that existed. It was like, what in the world? And I tried to make some joke and act like I was cool with it, but I was like, well, I know what the Bible says.

‍

And then I removed myself the next day from the thing. But like that's how deep I was thinking that no, I wanted to honor God. Yet the stories Jesus did was the exact opposite, but I had taken those few scripture verses and made them in a sense, the gospel. 

‍

Alison Cook: Yeah. Sometimes I do think about if Jesus were to walk the earth again today, you know, just to imagine, you know, him coming into our current context, you know, who are those people he would be sharing spit with? It's mind blowing how we repeat patterns. 

‍

Andrew, what are practical steps, like how do we actually change cultures? Because there's a lot of different things you've just talked about. There's theologies and some people aren't gonna change their theologies, and that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be abusive and toxic.

‍

You've talked about guys changing their internalized messages about women, but I guess when we kind of circle back to the church, which is the topic of your book, we're not gonna be perfect, but what are some practical steps a church can take to become safer? 

‍

Andrew Bauman: I think the most simple one is like number one. Can we just start this conversation? When's the last time you heard a sermon on sexual abuse? One out of three women are impacted by sexual abuse. When's the last sermon you heard on domestic violence? That's one out of four. And so let's just start the conversation, and if your church isn't starting it, well, what'd it take for you to start it?

‍

Hey, can I do a book club on this book? Because the more we normalize it, the less it'll be secret, the less it'll be in the dark. We have to begin to talk about these things. Number two, I'm thinking, how do we begin to change the church? We have to use trusted, researched resources. That's something that Sheila talks about all the time, right?

‍

It's like there's so much bad stuff out there that's not well researched. It's just I think somebody's pathologized, unaddressed trauma coming out as a normal theology or something rather than actually from a healed place. And then they. Represent God. Another thing I like to tell people is we can't do this alone, right?

‍

We gotta find our tribe. And so a lot of times people are isolated. Well, there's no churches in my area, there's nobody's talking about this. It's like, I get it. And online communities can be incredibly helpful. And then finally, what I tell women a lot, if they don't hold positions of power, what can I do?

‍

And a big thing that I often say is begin to trust your gut. I think a woman's intuition has been so attacked. Her body has been deemed dangerous. And you know, whether it's purity culture, or whether it's just from male projection teaching about modesty or whatever, making it a woman's fault. A woman actually needs to double down on her intuition on trusting her own body.

‍

I believe God lives in our bodies, and so we must trust the voice of our body. And I think when we can begin to trust our gut, then we can begin to speak from that centered place. Rather than that insecure place or that traumatized place that we can actually begin to trust our own goodness. 

‍

Alison Cook: One of the things I say to women, and a lot of it's outta my own experience of kind of having a knowing of, okay, I am not gonna be fully respected here.

‍

And also being an empathetic person, especially where again, there's that spectrum of toxicity, there's bad theology, and otherwise decent humans, there's really toxic pathology. And so for me, what I'll sometimes say to women is that trusting of the body doesn't mean you have to go burn the house down.

‍

Sometimes it does. Sometimes you do. Sometimes it means I need to find myself in another location to get somewhere where I do feel valued. I do feel honored. I do feel respected. That's what's most important, just taking that simple step of surrounding yourself with people where you do feel valued, it's just such a basic step, but so important. 

‍

Andrew Bauman: Totally. And so many women in the church don't feel like they're valued or their gifts aren't being fully utilized. 

‍

Alison Cook: Andrew, what gives you hope for the future of the church regarding men and women coming together in a beautiful, wholehearted way that is reflective of original design, of original goodness of men and women? What gives you hope about that? 

‍

Andrew Bauman: One, all of the new voices and the voices that are coming out and speaking up against this stuff and the new resources that are coming out that are speaking up, but then also even more poignantly the work that I do on the ground, right? So every month, you know, we have our four day men's workshops folks, men coming in from all over the world and like dealing with their darkness, wrestling with their glory.

‍

Like they're doing the work to heal their unprocessed trauma so they, they can stop oozing on the people they say they love. And that gives me a lot of hope. The most profound workshop that we do under the co-ed workshops. What happens if we actually get together and face each other and deal with our gendered wounds and heal and not be scared of that, but actually begin to engage what we will most fear.

‍

That gives me hope. Those groups that we do are just so powerful.

‍

Alison Cook: Why is this where the church, the place where we can't, as men and women, brothers and sisters come together and honor and love each other and respect each other and not shame each other and also call each other, and I can think of a number of different angles on that, but I'm curious to hear your response to that as someone who's been in church ministry.

‍

Andrew Bauman: Yeah, I mean, I truly believe we can't be spiritually healthy unless we're emotionally healthy. And I feel like we've neglected the inner world, so many leaders, we have become charismatic, you know, so we can get more people and you know, kind of the CEO model, but we have it focused on the inner world, and so that oozes over unprocessed trauma is always reenacted in our present day life.

‍

Always. And so I think that's what we're seeing is this unprocessed trauma coming out and oozing out in the way people lead. 

‍

Alison Cook: Yeah, I like that because it gives us a place to start. We're not gonna fix 2000 years, but we can start with our own unprocessed trauma. 

‍

Andrew Bauman: Yes, exactly. 

‍

Alison Cook: At the very least, the church can become a place that doesn't skim across the surface of that, but actually moves us into deeper health internally, which is inevitably gonna lead us back to each other.

‍

Andrew Bauman: Exactly. So when we look at like scripture, you know, if we're all dealing with all these unprocessed wounds and oh, I feel insecure inside, I need then to try to feel big. I'm gonna go to power and control. So of course spiritual abuse becomes a thing, right? Or when I think of how scripture was used in, what was it?

‍

1807, the slave Bible was created and you know, based on slaves obey your earthly masters was the verse, right? So they basically developed an entire Bible to help oppress entire people group. And they took out the story of Exodus from that Bible because they did not want to empower an oppressed people.

‍

And so this is where scripture can be weaponized. 

‍

Alison Cook: Yeah, it goes right back to your point, Jesus words, out of the overflow of the heart, the mouse speaks. That same integrity has always been the most important thing no matter what era. Of atrocities you are living in. If that inner integrity is not there, you will use all that trauma, all that pain, all that sin, Whatever word you wanna use will come out against other people. And at the same time, in those same context, whether it's 1807 or whether it's now integrity in the body, to your point about it being in the body says this isn't right. I don't care what scriptures you're using to justify it. This isn't right.

‍

This isn't good, this isn't true. This isn't honorable. This isn't leading me more to love of God, love of self and love of neighbor. 

‍

Andrew Bauman: Exactly. 

‍

Alison Cook: Andrew, tell my listeners about this book you've written. You're doing a lot of work in this space, so tell us specifically about the book and about the other places where people could find your work.

‍

Andrew Bauman: So Safe Church is the book of over 2,800 women in the research of, you know, how to fight against sexism and abuse. You can also find it on the website, safe Church us. Definitely check it out. Share it with your friends. I think it's super important. I mean, obviously I'm a little biased since it took me five years to write it, but this conversation is vital.

‍

Our churches need to be safe for everyone, right? And we need to look at these blind spots. Speaking up against the church doesn't mean that you're bad. It actually means I care about it, right? It actually means that I love the church and I want it to be a safer, more equitable place of liberation rather than trauma.

‍

And then my wife and I, we run the Christian Counseling Center. For sexual health and trauma, and you can find@christiancc.org. And we run workshops and retreats and all sorts of offerings as well. And then my wife's new book with Penguin Random House is called her rights, R-I-T-E-S. But Women's Rites of Passage, a Sacred Journey for Mind, body, and Soul. Her rights, so you can check that out as well. 

‍

Alison Cook:  I just wanna say, you know, we've all benefited so much from Diane Berg's work over the years and she writes about this and there's some other voices, but it is just the fact that as a man you are doing this work to speak to it. 'cause it isn't just women. You have to do this work and I really appreciate your putting yourself out there in that way. I'm sure it's not always easy and I think it's really important toward the end of healing, we've gotta heal together. To your point, the answer is not to just silo off from each other. So I really appreciate you're doing that work. 

‍

Andrew Bauman: Thank you very much, and thank you so much for having me on. It was great to finally meet you.

‍

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon music, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and click the plus or follow button that will ensure you don't miss an episode, and it helps get the word out to others while you're there.

‍

I'd love it if you leave your five star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God. You heal others and you stay true to your God given self.

‍

‍

Have you ever found yourself afraid to feel joy - worried that if you celebrate, the other shoe will inevitably drop?

So many of us quietly hold joy at arm’s length. We tell ourselves it’s safer not to get our hopes up than to risk being let down again. What if joy isn’t a fleeting feeling for the lucky few, but a courageous practice we can all learn?

Dr Alison sits down with therapist and author Nicole Zasowski to talk about her journey of choosing joy in the face of loss. Nicole shares how she discovered that joy can be the most vulnerable emotion of all - and why learning to celebrate is one of the most important practices we can cultivate in our lives.

Together, you’ll learn:

• The surprising reason joy can feel harder than grief or disappointment
• The difference between toxic positivity and true, grounded joy
• Why pessimism and cynicism are really forms of control
• Practical ways to retrain your mind to savor what’s good—even in difficult seasons
• What Scripture and neuroscience teach us about joy

📕 Learn more from Nicole: Check out her book ⁠What If It’s Wonderful?⁠ And her ⁠Daring Joy⁠ Bible study workbook for practical steps to cultivate joy.

📥 Download Alison’s ⁠free printable⁠ with the five boundary tools when you sign up for her weekly email.

Looking for more? Here are a few favorites:

⁠Episode 168:⁠ How do I trust God after loss?

⁠Episode 74:⁠ How to Find Hope in Hard Times

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode⁠ here⁠

💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

Thanks to our Sponsors!

• Go to ⁠⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
• Better sleep starts today! Get a birch mattress and test it out for 100 nights risk-free PLUS a discount for being a listener by visiting ⁠birchliving.com/BESTOFYOU⁠.
• If you’re looking for a Bible that helps you live the Word, not just read it, then grab this beautiful one I’m currently using at ⁠NIVapplicationbible.com⁠.
• Reconnect with what truly matters and rediscover a purposeful life you love with ⁠Social Media Reset⁠.
• Check out ⁠cozyearth.com⁠ and use code BESTOFYOU to get 45% off. Sleep cooler, lounge lighter, and embrace your cozy days with Cozy Earth.
• Give online therapy a try and see how it can help you become more present, more aware, and more connected to the life you want to live. Visit  ⁠BetterHelp.com/BESTOFYOU⁠.
• Get 50% off a nightguard at checkout when you code BESTOFYOU at ⁠shopremi.com/BESTOFYOU⁠.

Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

‍

Transcript:

‍

‍Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of the Best of You. I'm so glad you're here with me today for this incredible conversation. Today's episode is for you. If you've ever found yourself holding joy at arm's length, maybe you're fearful of trusting that the good in front of you is real, that it's safe to exhale, or that it might actually. Last, maybe you've been through loss, disappointment, or long seasons of waiting and even when something good finally happens, instead of celebrating, you catch yourself bracing for what might go wrong, or maybe you've quietly stopped hoping altogether, Telling yourself it's easier not to expect anything good at all to happen than to risk being let down one more time.

Our guest today knows this feeling well, Nicole Sakowski is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She's a speaker and she's the author of a fantastic book. It's called What If It's Wonderful? Release Your Fears, choose Joy and Find the Courage to Celebrate. 

And she's just released a brand new Bible study. It's called Daring Joy. What six women in the Bible teach us about the power of celebration when it feels risky, complicated, and even impossible. What I love about Nicole's work is that she invites us to see joy, not as a fleeting feeling, but as a courageous counter-cultural practice. one that we can and really must learn how to cultivate no matter our circumstances.

 Nicole's own journey to joy Began and as season marked by change loss and a performance-based identity, she shares candidly about walking through infertility and multiple miscarriages, and the surprising realization that Joy was the most vulnerable emotion she could feel.

Because when you hold something dear, there's always the risk. Of losing it. Instead of avoiding that vulnerability, Nicole began to explore what it looks like to practice joy as a rhythm of life rather than a reaction to circumstances. In today's conversation, we'll talk about the difference between true joy and what you might think of as bright siding or a toxic positivity.

Why joy can sometimes feel harder to embrace than grief or loss, and really practical ways to retrain your mind to notice, savor, and celebrate the good in your everyday life. I loved this conversation because Nicole brings both the depth of her clinical training and the vulnerability of someone who's wrestled through these questions herself.

She gives us permission to honor what's hard and to welcome what's good. Every single day reminding us the joy is not for the lucky few, but it's for all of us in every season. So whether you're in a season of sweetness or a season of sorrow, or like most of us, somewhere in the both, and this conversation will give you practical, spiritually rooted and deeply compassionate tools to start daring Joy today. Please enjoy my conversation with Nicole Zaki.

‍

INTERVIEW

‍

Alison Cook: What I love is that your work helps us reimagine joy. Not really as a feeling, A feeling that we have to conjure up, but more as a practice. I am curious how did the younger version of you relate to joy and, and what are the roots of why this became such an important topic for you personally to address?

Nicole Zasowski: I think two seasons. Stand out to me. Uh, one being most of my childhood and and into my early twenties, I had a very performance-based identity. I only felt as good as my last performance. And so therefore I had a very performance-based joy where I only gave myself permission to celebrate on the far side of a dream realized or a goal achieved.

And I think that's how a lot of us view joy in celebration is. We give ourselves permission to practice joy or to celebrate, on the other side of some sort of change. We view it as a reaction versus a rhythm. And that was very much me. for the majority of my life. Um, only gave myself permission to celebrate, you know, even the way God made me or, a gift that I had.

on the far side of. Of some sort of gold star, and. Sadly, that mostly worked for me for most of my life. I would please perfect perform the three Ps, and I mostly was able to find myself in a position where for maybe a brief second,

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: I felt that I had permission to celebrate. And of course we know that's a mirage.

As soon as you get there, the finish line has moved. Somewhere else, you know, down the line. And so you're perpetually chasing When will I be good enough? Or you're always afraid of falling off that pedestal, even if you do have that moment of, okay, I, I, I did it. and then was a good thing, but a hard thing.

At the same time, I confronted a season. That could largely be characterized by change in loss. it included a, a sudden move across the country, that was good for me, but very much unwanted. I had to leave all those comforts that I had built my identity on, and so without, couldn't take 'em with me.

Nobody knew who I was, where we were going. Nobody really was impressed by my accomplishments. And this was devastating to a girl who had a performance based identity. But as, as you know, that's a gift because when you're left empty handed, you're able to hold something that's more. Sure.

Alison Cook: Hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: after we got here, my husband and I walked through.

A long season of infertility that included five miscarriages in about as many years, which was really painful for so many reasons. But one of the first times I was like, I can't outwork this. I can't be good enough. I can't, um, outwork the pain to make it different. And, that was heartbreaking on its own level, but also, again, there was an invitation in that to put my identity in who I was as a child of God, as Nicole versus what Nicole can do.

Um, and when I did start to encounter some breakthrough and good news in our story, I realized I was hesitant to embrace it

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: and. This was so interesting to me because here is the thing I've longed for, the thing I've prayed for, and I am holding it in arm's length. I'm not celebrating it, and I was so grieved when I realized that, yeah, I've experienced a lot of tangible loss in my story, but a lot of the loss I've experienced has been my refusal to embrace the very good things that God had

Alison Cook: Hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: And so that was the part two to your question of, you know, the season that sort of shaped my relationship with joy is I, I was holding it at arm's length and I learned that joy is actually the most vulnerable feeling we feel because when you hold something, it's automatically accompanied by the possibility of loss.

And if you've been through. Trauma or pain of any kind, you know, it can feel safer not to hold that joy at all than to hold something that might break. And again, I was so grieved by that, what I was missing out on, I thought, I don't wanna miss out on my beautiful God-given life 'cause I'm so busy preparing for the worst.

And so. I did a deep dive into the neuroscience research. I did a deep dive into scripture to understand how can joy be a practice? My feelings are not there,

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: how can I engage with this? What am I empowered to do to engage with this so that I can have a healthier relationship with joy? And then out of that came my book.

What If It's Wonderful and my Bible study daring Joy.

Alison Cook: So, okay. Gosh, there's so much in there I wanna unpack. So you had this self-awareness at a particular moment to recognize, okay, here's a moment where I should be feeling joy.

And I am not.

Nicole Zasowski: right.

Alison Cook: What was it that you were experiencing?

Nicole Zasowski: I think mostly fear, yes. Here's the thing I've prayed for, but it doesn't feel like a good idea to celebrate it. so I'm going to protect myself with pessimism and cynicism, which are just fancy forms of control, right? I'm trying to become invulnerable to that hope to possibility, and so that's what I was employing.

Alison Cook: It's so interesting to me from a parts framework through the lens of parts, that it makes sense that a fearful part of you that had been very hurt.

Nicole Zasowski: Yep.

Alison Cook: Was there was very present in your sort of inner family and that to protect that part of you, an inner cynic or inner guarded part of you surfaced and again that you could become aware of that, you know, I just get this sense listening to you that you're sort of became aware of that dissonance.

 here I am. Not experiencing the relief or the joy or whatever. You know, joy is such a interesting emotion. What all goes into joy? and that you were honest enough to say, I see this.

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: I can't conjure up that feeling. I can't make myself have it. So I have to go on a path of how do I. Learn. How do I teach myself how to celebrate, how to experience joy? Am I, am I hearing you right? I mean, you definitely, you're in the right profession as a therapist, right? Where you're aware. But I love that. That's what's so beautiful. That's what you offer us, is you were so aware of the dissonance, but even in that awareness, you didn't immediately have the, oh, there, now I can It.

It's like, no, I have to go on a journey.

Nicole Zasowski: Yes, yes. And I've learned both as a person and a therapist, I think with a lot of the virtues we wanna incorporate in our life, whether it's. Joy or courage or that we have to often act on what we know to be true or practice that virtue before the feelings follow and in the. Brain research I've done and in my work with clients and in my own personal work, that's certainly been true for me that I'm gonna have to, to practice this before

Alison Cook: Hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: I necessarily feel it.

And it might be quite a while of practicing it, before those feelings follow. So that's absolutely the journey I, I took.

Alison Cook: Okay. I wanna get to the practice 'cause I think that it, I think it's so interesting and counterintuitive and in many ways counter-cultural to think about practicing joy. I think it's [00:09:00] so important and, just so grateful that you're talking about it before we get there. When you set out on this path, this recognition of, I don't feel. The way that I feel like I should feel about this. did you talk about that with people and when you reached out for insight or wisdom, or even through your research

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: did you find helpful and also what, what did you kind of bump up against that wasn't helpful out there on this quest?

Nicole Zasowski: I think one of the most unhelpful messages we can hear. Related to this quest, but also with. Joy is and, and it's a similar but distinctly different message than the one that I would hope to share with people and that I would hope readers would get from my work. Is this sort of, um. Just put a silver lining on the cloud [00:10:00] or, fake it till you make it.

Alison Cook: I've, yep.

Nicole Zasowski: you know, God doesn't ask us to call a painful thing. Good. Um, good things grow from painful things? Of course. Um, but he doesn't ask us to call that. hardship or that hurt or that loss itself a good thing. And I think if we're not careful, we can easily kind of that toxic positivity, kind of easily tie a bow on something where there's no bow to be tied or look for a way to draw a silver lining on that cloud.

And that's not what this is.

 I think one of the hardest but most helpful messages. was understanding that joy is a practice, that it is a spiritual discipline.

at first I was annoyed when I started to see that message in scripture and the neuroscience research because I thought, gosh, there's so many things in our personal growth in our faith walk that require.

Discipline and I thought, gosh, can't joy just come easily? Can't that be the one thing that just flows naturally out of us? And then I realized. How empowering that is, because if joy were simply a feeling that came from good circumstances or came from the winds in our life, then it would be an experience for the lucky few who happen

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: good experiences sometimes or good circumstances.

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: And to know that this is something that is actually available to us, to all of us in all seasons was not only empowering, like, oh, I can actually take a step toward this and, and do something. But also really comforting that this is, and I could cry talking about this. 'cause for a long time I felt like.

I was somebody with my nose pressed against the glass looking in on something I couldn't have. And I think a lot of us, when we think about joy and think about how, can feel that when or if this relationship gets solved or if I experience. A health breakthrough or whatever that is.

We all have that thing, right? then I can experience joy. I think it, a lot of us feel disqualified from it. And so my hope is that my work could be an encouragement that this is something that, yes, it might look different in different seasons, the feelings will go up and down, but this is something you're absolutely empowered to practice regardless of what your life might look like right now.

Alison Cook: Yeah. I love that. I, I love that your work. Comes directly out of your own

life experience. you said something that I think is really, profound in many ways joy can feel more vulnerable

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: than grief.

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: Why is that 

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah, I, I was, um, I was really surprised when I thought about it that way and Brene Brown talks about the idea of foreboding joy. Um. That joy is often accompanied by this sense of, but what if it all goes away? and I think a couple things. The act of holding something right, when we embrace something, when we celebrate something that's vulnerable because we're holding something that can be taken

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: particularly if our joy is.

In something that comes and goes, and we can talk about that in a bit. But, that can be a vulnerable experience to actually take a chance to celebrate something. You hear a lot about people saying, well. Waiting for the other shoe to drop or, you know, we operate with these really funny, ideas about how life works.

 I think probably to try and get a sense of control on something that is uncertain, but just the idea. I've heard people say, yeah, things have. Really great for a long time. I'm, I'm really enjoying my life and I'm in a sweet season of peace and connection with other people, you know, so I'm probably due, you know, we, we have this idea that we can only embrace that for so long.

And just a side note on that, the research is really clear that while we might wanna protect ourselves with pessimism and cynicism. Even if, and this is a big if 'cause usually it doesn't happen, but even if that outcome that we fear should come to pass or the other shoe does drop,

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: having prepared for that mentally and emotionally doesn't take any of the sting out of that outcome should that happen.

So all we're doing is robbing ourselves of that delight and connection in the meantime.

‍

AD BREAK I

‍

Alison Cook: That's so good as you're saying that it reminds me of. The importance and the, and the sounds cliche, which is so hard about this conversation, right? It's so nuanced. of living in the moment

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: thinking about the manna in the wilderness.

Like, what is mine today? Is mine today.

Nicole Zasowski: today.

Alison Cook: And the joy that I have today is the joy that I have today. I'm not worrying about tomorrow. So there's a lot about it in the Bible. We see it in psychology being in the present moment. What's happening right now. We don't do ourselves any favors, with the sort of doom stressing, the doom worrying.

And I love that you underscored that. But again, that is a practice. and I hear you saying that a part of you. had to retrain,

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah.

Alison Cook: reorient to a different practice, which required you to be vulnerable to a new emotion.

Nicole Zasowski: mm.

Alison Cook: I guess how you say it is, we don't drift toward. Joy. And so in your own experience, you had to begin hunting for it, looking for it. So talk to us a little bit about, as you're realizing, oh, I need to incorporate this practice into my life, what were some of the first steps you started taking and how did that go and how did that feel for you initially?

Nicole Zasowski: Clunky. I think when you're learning anything for the first time in your carving those new neuro pathways in your brain, it's like blazing a trail in the forest versus taking the well beaten path. the brain prefers what it knows, not necessarily what is good or true. and I say that not

For someone to feel overwhelmed by change, but to validate that change is hard, carving those neural pathways is uncomfortable for your brain, even if it's good and ultimately healthier thing. So it definitely felt clunky, but rewarding nonetheless. I think when I started to understand what some of those practices were.

 and we can talk about what those were, um, and, and how to practice them at home if you're listening. but yeah, it felt clunky. It, it felt, unfamiliar and, and while I was helping that truth become more familiar to my brain.

Alison Cook: Yeah. 

Nicole Zasowski: but again, hopeful and I, I really believed. in what I was being led to do.

Alison Cook: and also as both yourself and as a therapist, it would strike me that you have to have some buy-in to recognize this is a path I need. To work on. Right. And I think that could be confusing.

And even as a clinician, right, we have some people who come to see us that are so good at bright siding things,

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah,

Alison Cook: which isn't what you're talking about. That's not joy. That there is actually a need to help them really walk through and feel what's hard. Almost a practice of grieving in a way.

And there's something about, you knew, I get this sense. You were really aware. I see something happening here that I need to shift inside of me to be able to balance out. Yes. there's a part of me, you know, if I think about that part's language that is maybe, always to some degree going to be a little bit. Uncertain.

Nicole Zasowski: Yep.

Alison Cook: Um, maybe a little bit like I'm not that one that just dives right into the excitement and the exuberance of emotion, right? and also I need to cultivate this other part of me that can feel and lean into the joy and lean into the, this is good, and I'm gonna let myself right.

So that, that takes a lot of. Self-awareness and self knowledge, and I'm thinking ofof the listener. How might they know that there's an invitation also to Joy and that that also might be a practice not to deny what's been hard not to bypass. What's been hard, and I think, again, I'm being long-winded here, but I think especially in faith contexts

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah,

Alison Cook: where joy can become a way to spiritually bypass, I should feel this way.

I shouldn't feel sad, I shouldn't feel angry. I shouldn't feel, ungrateful for a lot of folks. I could imagine there's a sort of. well, which one is it? and I, I'm trying to figure out how to learn to feel angry. I'm trying to figure out how to learn to feel sad, again, I'm, sort of saying a lot of things and not really getting to a question, but I, I hear very clearly in what you're saying, Nicole, that we wanna make sure there is also a seat for joy at the table.

Joy also needs to be there.

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: And so I guess. how do we know when there's that invitation? How do we know? Maybe there's an out of balance, and maybe the best metaphor I can think of is it's almost the opposite of what happened in the first Inside Out movie.

Nicole Zasowski: Sure.

Alison Cook: Right? And the first Inside Out movie, joy was the only character she was dominating.

But for you. And I think for a lot of people, Joy's, the one that's marginalized, Joy's the one that's being held back.

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: So both, as a clinician and in your own personal life, how do we know when that invitation might be there?

Nicole Zasowski: That's such a good question. I think, you know, similar, ideas, different language. I, I work with a model called Restoration Therapy

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: The first thing we do and, and something that I'm very aware of as somebody who practices it in my own life, is to understand what that message of pain is.

So what are the feelings you tend to feel when you're in a painful situation? And these are. Shaped by our stories. So you and I could go through the exact same thing tomorrow and I might feel inadequate or worthless and, and you might feel alone or unsafe, just as an example.

Alison Cook: Interesting.

Nicole Zasowski: But understanding what those messages are, I'm very clear on what my three to four feelings I tend to feel 90% of the time I'm in a painful situation.

 and so understanding like for me, what those wounds are, I've already shared, you know, a part of my story would be definitely not good enough. That's a big one for me. shaped by my. Miscarriage and infertility season, might also be vulnerable. And so then it's identifying what are the ways I tend to protect myself and react to that pain that are totally understandable and probably served me at one point in my life as a child, uh, are no longer serving me now, are no longer

Alison Cook: Mm

Nicole Zasowski: At least to let run amuck.

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: So, and the four broad categories of those behaviors are shaming yourself, blaming other people, controlling and escaping. So. And this is what you were talking about earlier, is sometimes we've gotta know what names to give our pain. We've gotta name the cost.

We've gotta grieve what that feeling is, identify what we might be tempted to do. I am a world class controller. and that can look a lot of different ways, not necessarily micromanaging someone else, but for me, as I've already shared. Becoming invulnerable to that pain. So by, okay, if I just expect the worst, then I won't have to feel, as devastated, or I won't feel the gravity of that vulnerability if, if it doesn't turn out how I'm hoping and praying it will.

And so really being able to name that is where you can see some invitation of. What does it look like? And again, that's, that's a well carved neural pathway in my brain.

 but what is the truth that? I want to claim, and I use that word claim because again, this doesn't mean the feeling isn't real and that I don't have good reasons for feeling that way.

But as an empowered adult, that's the feeling that's being thrown down. What am I gonna choose to pick up and continue to tell myself,

Alison Cook: Right.

Nicole Zasowski: what am I gonna choose to speak to that very real feeling?

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: And how can I practice acting on what I know to be true instead of reacting to how I feel, which for me is engaging in a lot of these joy practices.

Alison Cook: Interesting.

Nicole Zasowski: that's counter to how I tend to react and protect myself.

Alison Cook: Yeah, it makes sense what you're saying because it's not so much so, so I think for me not in my, how I am with other people, not with how I am as a clinician, but with myself, when I feel one of those vulnerable, painful emotions, I tend to bright side, I tend to minimize, I tend to, it'll be fine.

It, that's not joy.

Nicole Zasowski: No,

Alison Cook: But it can appear that way. It can appear like a positive, optimistic. Person and this conversation is so interesting to me because I, I had this conversation with my co-author, Kimberly Miller, when we were writing Boundaries for Your Soul.

 at the time I was practicing letting myself feel sadness and so I would listen to sad music,

Nicole Zasowski: Uhhuh, uh.

Alison Cook: I would listen to that Coldplay song Fix You.

Nicole Zasowski: Yes, good choice,

Alison Cook: And both Kim and then my husband too, like, they're like, why are you listening to that? Like, they didn't need the help.

Nicole Zasowski: right.

Alison Cook: they didn't need the help to feel that and. I'm being a little convoluted here, but, but I think you're saying something interesting. the impetus is still whether you're going to pessimism or whether you're kind of going to a, like I have a bright sighting part of myself. Either way, we're not dealing with the actual vulnerable. Feeling, which is [00:26:00] something hard happened, something painful.

We're not actually telling ourselves the truth, whether we're piling on and saying Nothing good is ever gonna happen for me, or expect no good in the future, or whether we're saying it'll be fine. Don't worry about it. Just shrug it off. we're not giving ourselves the actual healing and truth.

That true joy. Or any of the fruit of the spirit, but in this case, joy. So tell me, in light of that kind of isolating what we're talking about, something that is healing, something that is. for example, again, using, if FS vernacular playfulness is a quality of the spirit, let itself playfulness, which I, I think is akin to joy is.

The ability when something really hard is happening and, and you have some friends that are really good at this. I have a couple of friends who are really good at this, and they just make you laugh. But it's not because they're bypassing the [00:27:00] pain, it's because you just see the absurdity in it and you're just like, tears are streaming down your face, and you're kind, laugh, crying.

That to me is joy. It's not bypassing. And so I'm curious in your vernacular, 'cause I, I love. This vernacular that you're bringing through restoration therapy, what is joy like? What is it actually, it's not bright siding. but I hear you saying it's also very much not kind of the opposite of that, which is sort of the, the pessimistic or the cynical component.

 how do you know it when you see it? How do you know it, when you feel it? What's your experience of that?

Nicole Zasowski: Well, I do have a definition that I personally hold, but I think to speak specifically to what you are saying is I'm often asked what's the difference between celebration and escape? Because I think we do tend to look at joy as falsely as you're pointing out bright sighting or,

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: and, and so you're exactly right.

Bright siding or getting pessimistic or, or doing those, any of those four things, blame, shame, control, escape. Are different forms of reacting to our pain. So they, they might have different consequences, but they're equally unhelpful and unhealthy and, and don't actually help us deal with that pain. And so I would ask.

You know, somebody that maybe is having a hard time discerning the difference is what are you looking for? Any sort of escape behavior, including bright siding, is looking to take us, 

 out. So I, there's nothing I can do to solve this pain or deal with this pain, so I'm just gonna check out and hope it goes away while I'm gone.

 Versus joy and celebration keeps us connected. It's an avenue of connection with our emotion and with other people and with God.

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: So, you know, the example you gave of your friends just having the gift of seeing the absurdity in something. They're not disconnecting from their pain and, you know, numbing it.

 they're relationally connecting in it. So one diagnostic question is. Is this disconnecting or is it connecting?

Alison Cook: great.

 Yes.

Nicole Zasowski: this connecting me to God to other people in my

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: To my emotional experience? Or is it something that's just hitting the pause button

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: on my emotional processing where I'm in a, you know, it's like when you take a nap and it feels so good to fall asleep.

'cause you don't have to think about that thing that's burdening you and then you wake up and it takes about five seconds for you to be like, oh, there. Yep, there it is. that's escape versus what's helping me emotionally process this, what's helping me connect to other people.

Alison Cook: Yeah, that's good.

Nicole Zasowski: Um, so yes, and the very simple from a spiritual perspective, definition of joy that I've landed on is recalling God's steadfast character and remembering his faithfulness in our story.

That's. Joy that's available to all of us in all seasons. So at, at the very root, from a spiritual perspective. that's the definition I personally hold onto is, is something that's available to me always.

Alison Cook: I love this 

 you're speaking about it with such depth. There's such a deep integrated understanding there. I love this quote. You say, Nicole, And I think this kind of gets at what you're trying to say here. I love celebrating with God instead of seeing celebration as merely the result of the struggles God has carried me through.

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: And I think that there's something to that, the relational

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah.

Alison Cook: connected component. That you're getting at there when you're with God through it all, there's a ness in the joy, not God.

You know? Thanks for rescuing me from this hard thing, as if you weren't in the hard thing with me too, but there's a, oh my gosh, God, look at what's happening. This is good news. We're doing it. You know, there's that ness that's so beautiful.

‍

AD BREAK 2

‍

Nicole Zasowski: The story that really stood out to me in, in teaching me that particular point was, um, the story of the 10 men with leprosy. And if you're not familiar with that story briefly, you can find it in Luke 17. But, um, men have leprosy and it's their disease that's brought them together because.

That would've been a thing in that culture that defined them more than anything else. you know, more than their personality, they would've been. isolated from their families, isolated from their communities. And so these 10 men have nothing to lose 'cause it's not only a physical disease, it's, it's an emotional and relational cost as well.

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: They see Jesus and they cry out for healing [00:32:00] and he tells them, be on your way to the temple, which Might sound like a strange response, but it's typically the first step one took after being healed. So they had to exercise some faith that they would be healed on their way to the temple, and sure enough, they start to see their own healing in the faces and bodies of their friends and

Alison Cook: Mm.

Nicole Zasowski: only, mean, we can assume that.

Given the massive life change that this would've meant that they all felt grateful,

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: but only one were told and scripture returned to actually thank Jesus. And I looked at this story and trying to understand the difference between gratitude and Thanksgiving. 'cause Thanksgiving is the outward expression of the gratitude that we feel

Alison Cook: Mm.

Nicole Zasowski: our hearts.

And I love Jesus's response. It's a bit facetious when this one man. Comes to say thank you. He says, well, weren't all 10 healed. and I, you know, [00:33:00] it's easy to maybe take this as Jesus's bid for our praise, but that's not the point of this story. The point of this story is that Thanksgiving saying our gratitude out loud either to God in our prayers or to somebody else in your life. Is the avenue we've been given to celebrate the gift with the giver. So if you're a person of faith, Thanksgiving is the avenue we've been given to celebrate with God. Like look, what's happening. I think,

Alison Cook: so cool.

Nicole Zasowski: yes, this is awesome.

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: I think often I was used to clinging to God, you know, overground, that was rough underfoot and then.

Pictured him saying, okay, have fun when you need me again, let me know, when you need me again, when we got to that ground, that was smoother and, and he absolutely wants to engage with us in the light of our joy just as he wants to be present with us in our pain. And Thanksgiving is, is a helpful practice for many reasons, but it is the avenue we've been given to actually celebrate God's good

Alison Cook: I love that there's a, it's a relational,

with God or with other people as well, like celebrating with a friend. I am so excited about. This and we give someone else a gift when, you if I've walked through painful times with a friend and then something really great happens, what a gift that I also get to be part of that experience.

So there you're so wise on that. There's a relational component to it.

Nicole Zasowski: I heard, um, I have no idea what the source was, so my apologies. It was something that just came across my Instagram feed. and because it was related to, to this conversation, I, I paid attention to it, and I am, I'm gonna paraphrase here, but it was a gentleman talking about, you know, how we often talk about that.

Best friend as the one you could call in the middle of the night, you know, with your deepest hurt, your deepest need, you know, when you're in your darkest hour. And he was saying, we don't often talk about that close friend. You know, the, the even more vulnerable close friend that you could call when you have something to celebrate and who you know is not gonna be threatened by that.

 Gonna rejoice with you in that

'cause there's vulnerability in that

Alison Cook: Yes, there sure is.

Nicole Zasowski: calling somebody to say, I need to celebrate this with you. This breakthrough just happened, or, I'm so excited about this and you're the person I thought to call, in addition to celebrating other people, but I thought that was so rich and so good to point out.

Alison Cook: That's so good that that hit. Yeah, that who's that person

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah.

Alison Cook: can call? And really, yeah. That's, that's a great, insight. Nicole, [00:36:00] what, just as we're winding down here, what are some some practices that have helped you personally and that you use with clients?

Stay attuned to joy, so. Whether as a therapist, as a mom, as a person of faith, what are some practices that help you keep this part of you or stay attuned to, to this idea of joy that we're talking about?

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah, and there's tons in the book and the Bible study if you're curious about what do I actually do, but the, there's a few favorites. Thanksgiving would be one, and again, that's the outward expression of the gratitude that we feel in our hearts. So I live in the greater New York City area and. all over the New York City subway system are signs, you know, if you see something, say something, and it has a much more ominous meaning there.

But I've adopted and tweaked that phrase as if I feel something, say something. Okay. And I use that to challenge myself toward this notion of saying what I'm grateful for out loud again, either to God in your prayers or to someone in your life. And it is vulnerable. It's vulnerable to look somebody in the eye and say, Hey, I just want you to know this is the difference that your friendship has made in my life.

Alison Cook: Wow.

Nicole Zasowski: This is how I've grown because of our relationship. We don't talk like that in everyday life. So but it is so powerful. Not only will you increase your joy because the research says. That you will experience much more joy when you actually share your gratitude out loud through Thanksgiving than had you simply written it down and kept it to yourself.

So you'll increase your own joy, but hopefully you'll also. Pass some joy onto the recipient of, of that news. savoring you mentioned being in the present moment. and you and I as, as clinicians both know that, um. When we are anxious, our brain tends to run ahead to the future and think about all the what ifs, or it runs to the past and thinks about all the, what it could have, should have, we should have done differently.

The problem is, we're not empowered in the future or the past to make choices we, we only have today. And so that savoring is a practice that's both helpful for anxiety and for increasing our joy and the way that you practice it. Is you take one snapshot, not a whole dinner party, maybe the look on your friend's face when you gave them a compliment across the table or the sound of another friend's laugh or you know something.

You could take a photograph with your brain and you simply ask your five traditional sense what they're going to remember about that moment. So what do you see? What do you hear? What do you smell? What do you taste and what do you feel? [00:39:00] And what this does is it. Extracts more joy from the life that you're already living.

So again, we tend to think of, ugh, celebration. I've gotta add something to my life, or I've gotta spend a lot of money or a lot of time. And this is about experiencing more joy in your every day. The. Already have, so you don't need to add anything. It's just experiencing more joy in what you've already got.

Alison Cook: hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: Also, we don't drift toward joy. Our, our brains are a little bit like Velcro with negativity and Teflon with joyful things. So this is a way of retraining our brain to not only recognize joy that our brain would typically dismiss, but also helping that joy be stickier. And you're telling your brain, uh, this is something that you would normally think is not important, but we actually need to keep this and we're gonna store it in a part of our brain [00:40:00] where we can actually recall it later as a fond memory, and it's not just discarded as something that we don't need anymore.

So it's part of how we retrain our brain. Toward joy when you practice this daily, you'll start to see more and more opportunities. My, my clients and and readers will often tell me, first it was a challenge to do one thing a day, and then it's like, oh, it's hard to pick one because, because I keep seeing opportunities to savor and extract joy from that moment.

So those are two really powerful practices that. Are easy to incorporate daily that I would encourage listeners to start with.

Alison Cook: I love that because it gets to your point of, regardless of your circumstances, not to quote Paul, but regardless of our circumstances, I mean that is what, that's getting at. Even when things are really hard, I can look for those moments to safer.

Nicole Zasowski: yep. Yeah,

Alison Cook: And I could think of those just when you were talking about it, I could think of those moments where I felt really depressed and my, my husband's face or or something else.

You know, it's just like, oh, and then taking that in there's an attunement that's intentional and I love how you're kind of guiding us through how to practice, noticing it, but then really pulling. All of that into our muscle memory.

Nicole Zasowski: Yes.

Alison Cook: That's beautiful.

 so what would you say to a listener right now who's in a hard season, maybe they're afraid to dream, afraid to celebrate, afraid of what could go wrong. What's one piece of wisdom that you'd summarize to say to them right now?

Nicole Zasowski: Hmm. Well, I'll go based on the research that, with that particular feeling, that foreboding joy, if you're holding something but you're afraid to dream or afraid to hope, Thanksgiving for what is, is what the research says is the only way to tolerate that [00:42:00] vulnerability of joy. So if you're celebrating something but you're afraid.

Um, it'll go away, or maybe there's a possibility of something on the horizon, but you're afraid to hope. Thanksgiving for where you are right now is what the research says is the practice that's gonna serve you best. And then I'll go back to my joy definition that is available to all of us because that's what we see.

Certainly in the Old Testament as we look at the Old Testament, that the Israelites, their celebration wasn't necessarily, I mean, knowing how difficult their story was at many points wasn't necessarily in reaction to, something good happening, but it was remembering God's character and remembering his faithfulness.

And so making celebration a rhythm. Versus a reaction in your family culture and in your own personal life, I think is a really helpful place to start as well.

Alison Cook: I love that you have to turn. Like you said, you're, there's that foreboding fear that's future oriented, we have to turn to today. What am I grateful for right now? What is good right now? What can I celebrate right now? That's, that's awesome. Tell us, Nicole, about how we, listeners can find you and especially about this newest project, daring Joy, which sounds like it's a very practical and biblically based way for folks who are wanting to incorporate more of what you've been talking about into their lives.

Nicole Zasowski: Sure. So my website is a great place to connect with me, Nicole Zaki, Z-A-S-O-W-S-K i.com. you can buy my book, what If It's Wonderful or Daring Joy. Uh, certainly on Amazon or everywhere you like to buy books. there's information on that on my website as well. and during Joy, I, I felt like when I finished, what if it's wonderful.

They're not companion projects, so you don't need to read them in order or anything like that. Um, content. Is largely different, but I felt like I wasn't done with the topic I just had this sense that we were gonna keep going in this conversation. and. That's where Daring Joy was born. It, it goes through six, the stories of six different women in the Bible.

And these women either hold up the mirror to what holds us back from joy or provide a beautiful example of what it actually looks like to practice joy when life doesn't necessarily serve that up. And.

Alison Cook: Wow.

Nicole Zasowski: I learned so much as I studied their stories. It's amazing how age old these struggles that we've been talking about in this conversation are.

 and because you see it right from the beginning with Eve and the, the women are Eve, Sarah, Miriam. Mary, mother of Jesus, Elizabeth and Mary Magdalene, if you're interested in that. And it's a more of an interactive workbook style resource, whereas what if it's wonderful is a traditional trade book. But it does have discussion questions in the back if you looking for a book club discussion guide or anything like

Alison Cook: Uh, I think it's great. I highly recommend, and again, as therapists, right, we are so often helping people work through their pain and their trauma, and it is so amazing to me and beautiful that as a therapist, you're bringing in the fullness. Of what healing is, because this is a huge component of it, no matter how hard things are.

This is a component of wholeness, and I love that you're bringing it in with that nuance of understanding. You're not trying to bypass, but I just highly recommend to anyone listening to the therapist listening. and all of you listening, these are. Great resources, uh, so that we don't lose sight of the goodness and the beauty and the joy and I, I just am so grateful for what you're doing.

Nicole Zasowski: Thank you. You know that I am love your work and and so appreciate you as well. So this was a fun and lovely conversation for me to have as well.

Alison Cook: Awesome. Thank you, Nicole.

Why do we work so hard to earn the approval of others?
And what is it really costing us?

‍

In this candid, practical episode, Dr. Alison tackles one of the most common struggles she hears from so many of you: people pleasing. You’ll hear powerful voice messages from listeners as she explores the many forms this pattern can take—from avoiding conflict, to saying “yes” when you want to say “no,” to slowly losing sight of who you really are.

‍

Together, you’ll learn:

• 5 common roots of people pleasing
• How certain Bible verses get misused to reinforce self-erasure
• The high cost of people pleasing
• 3 simple steps to move toward wholeness

‍

📥 Pick up your copy of The Best of You—Dr. Alison’s book on this topic here

📥 Download Alison’s free printable with the five boundary tools when you sign up for her weekly email.

‍

Other episodes you might like :

Episode 46: People Pleasing as Survival, How Jesus Regulated Emotions & the Problem With Toxic Positivity and Spiritual Bypassing with Aundi Kolber

Episode 33: People Pleasing & Developing Your Own Inner Compass: Thoughts on Depression, Mental Health & the Church, and Finding Hope in Dark Places with Dr. Monique Gadson

Episode 14: The Fawn Response

‍

💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

‍

Thanks to our Sponsors!

• Go to ⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
• Better sleep starts today! Get a birch mattress and test it out for 100 nights risk-free PLUS a discount for being a listener by visiting birchliving.com/BESTOFYOU.
• If you’re looking for a Bible that helps you live the Word, not just read it, then grab this beautiful one I’m currently using at NIVapplicationbible.com.
• Reconnect with what truly matters and rediscover a purposeful life you love with Social Media Reset.

Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

‍

Transcript:

‍

Hi everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of the Best of You. I'm so glad you're here today with me. One of my favorite parts of this podcast is getting to hear directly from you. Your questions, your stories, and the honest reflections you share with me through your emails on social media, through your reviews, or whether I get the opportunity to meet you in person.

‍

And in today's episode, you're gonna hear some of your voices woven throughout our conversation. We're talking about something so many of us wrestle with, and that's people pleasing, what it looks like, how it shapes our relationships, and how we begin to break free from it in a way that honors both ourselves and God.

‍

Speaking of your voices, I'd love for you to be part of an upcoming episode where we're exploring comparison and competition within friendships, how it shows up, how we navigate it, and how we heal from it. If you've got a question, an observation, or an insight related to how you've dealt with comparison and competition within friendships, we would love to include your voice.

‍

You can call us at (307) 429-2525 and leave us a voicemail and we might just use your voice in a future episode.

‍

Now for today's topic one, I know so many of us wrestle with people pleasing. This was the top theme that surfaced through the voicemails that you've been leaving me these past few months. In today's episode, we're gonna name what people pleasing really is, the different ways it shows up and how we begin to break free, not by abandoning others, but by coming home to ourselves and to a God who doesn't ask us to disappear.

‍

We're gonna start off today with your voices because people pleasing doesn't always look the same, and the journey out of it is deeply personal. These different voices show us just how varied and also vulnerable the journey can be.

‍

Hi, Dr. Allison. My name is Elizabeth and I've been following your work for a few years. I'm a really big fan and I always look forward to Thursdays when a new podcast episode drops. As a recovering people pleaser, I have been working on showing up for myself and showing up to my life more fully. I'm trying to move away from postures of passivity, people pleasing, going along to get along, et cetera, and continuing to develop my bravery muscles.

‍

This sometimes means disappointing people or having conflict, which isn't easy. As someone who is very attuned to others, I'm working on differentiating, taking care of myself and asking for what I need. I'm so grateful for your work and encouragement to be true to ourselves and to who we are in God. 

‍

Hi, my name is Susan. I'm calling from Ohio. I love your podcast. I listen to it and I go back and re-listen to a lot of episodes and I love how you combine psychology and faith and an area that I would really like to grow in personally and spiritually is not meeting other people to make me feel like I'm okay when I feel that sting of disapproval from others or maybe even rejection. They're angry with me. Suddenly I feel like my prop has just been pulled away from me, and then I feel bad about myself or I don't feel okay. And I know that God loves me, but I really struggle to be secure enough in God's love that other people aren't like a mirror for me to see myself, to see if they approve of me or like me in order that I can feel okay.

‍

I wanna be more secure in God's love so I can forget about myself and just have that freedom and relationships to interact with other people. And to be focused on them and not always worried, am I okay? And if I am alone and I maybe don't have the support of others, am I still okay? 

‍

Hello, good morning. My name is Jeannie and I'm calling from the North Dallas, Texas area. I feel like I've been growing in many aspects of my life through various things such as meditation practices, centering prayer, shadow work, parts work. Understanding some of my core wounds and defenses, becoming alcohol free, making healthy choices, and incorporating changes from insightful podcasts and a growing relationship with Christ.

‍

So where I continue to struggle is building and maintaining relationships. I just still happier living a life of solitude, though I know relationships are important. Doing the inner work has taken a lot, and when I go into relationships, I don't feel the value of them. They feel shallow and make me want to hide from all the work I've done.

‍

I would like to grow on those deeper relationships of authenticity, and I don't feel like I can do that in some of my current close friendships.

‍

Hi, Dr. Allison. This is Bree and I am calling from Philadelphia. I'm so grateful for your work. You have been an integral part of my faith journey, and honestly, God has used you tremendously in my life. So I just wanna say thank you. Where I would like to grow is mainly in my spiritual life. I used to be very linear when it came to growth where I would only focus on spiritual and I would neglect any type of physical strength or emotional or mental strength learning from you and others.

‍

I have balanced that out some, but something that's been difficult is. Understanding how to incorporate my faith in this new understanding of my mental health and how that matters, and how it's important to not neglect things like rest and making sure that I am prioritizing myself when in the past I would neglect myself.

‍

And so now that I'm choosing myself more. Sometimes things that have felt hopeful for me are not as helpful, such as certain spiritual practices like sitting down, reading my Bible, going to church, listening to Christian music. I almost have started to have like a stress response to those things because for so long I just allowed myself.

‍

To only let those things be helpful. And now I'm finding that other things are helpful, like grounding exercises and listening to my needs and saying no. And so it's kind of been a little disorienting in this season of my spiritual life because. I don't know how to relate to God now, and I know you talked about this quite a bit.However, I feel this disconnect with trying to relate to God in this new season and this new understanding of me choosing me.

‍

Did you notice the different faces of people pleasing? Jeannie, you've done some deep inner work, but you're now struggling to connect in relationships that feel shallow, and that makes sense. Elizabeth, you're learning how to show up bravely even when it means you have to disappoint others. Susan, you're longing to feel secure in God's love instead of relying on others' approval to feel. Okay. Brie, you're learning to say no more often to choose yourself, and it's reshaping how you experience God. All of this makes sense and underneath it all, do you hear the longing in each one of these voices? In all of our voices? The longing for freedom, for real connection, and for clarity, and a deep sense of who we really are in God's love.

‍

What is people pleasing? I wanna start with a definition because people pleasing isn't the same thing as being kind, compassionate, or generous. Those are beautiful qualities that are often lying underneath our people pleasing tendencies, but those qualities are rooted in deep love and genuine care for the other person.

‍

People pleasing, on the other hand, is something different. It's when your sense of worth depends on other people being pleased with you. It's when your desire to be liked, to be accepted, to be affirmed leads you to abandon your own needs, your opinions, even your values. And here's where it gets interesting, because there's a deeper distinction.

‍

We don't always talk about. We often conflate approval seeking with people pleasing. Approval seeking is the motivation underneath our people pleasing behaviors. It's that inner drive to be liked, to be validated, to be accepted by others, and often it's sub subconscious. We don't even realize it's there.

‍

It's an inner belief deep down inside that you might not even be aware of That says. My okayness depends on your approval and approval. Seeking shows up in all kinds of ways. It shows up when we overexplain ourselves to make sure we're understood when we fish for compliments or reassurance, when we avoid disagreement so that others won't think poorly of us, or when we perform or curate a version of ourselves to earn praise.

‍

Now people pleasing is how that motivation often plays out externally. It's the behavior pattern that we see, right? People pleasing behaviors are all those behaviors we do to ensure that no one else will ever be upset with us. It often looks like saying yes. When you want to say no. Avoiding conflict at all costs, taking responsibility for other people's emotions, prioritizing other people's needs to your own detriment.

‍

Here's the relationship between the two. Approval seeking is the internal driver. I need your approval to be okay. And people pleasing is one of the ways that we act out on that drive. Here's what the research in psychology shows us. People who chronically seek approval from others, especially through people pleasing behaviors, report higher levels of depression, anxiety, and emotional exhaustion.

‍

And it's not because they're quote unquote, too nice. It's because over time you suppress your own needs, your own authentic voice in order to earn love. One recent study found that this pattern actually creates what psychologists call social disconnection. Despite trying to gain acceptance, people pleasers often feel more lonely and more misunderstood because the connections they form aren't based on their true self.

‍

The very thing we do to feel closer to others actually leaves us feeling more alone and acknowledging that truth is where the healing begins. I actually feel alone, even though I'm working overtime to make sure everybody else is happy. I feel disconnected and unseen even though I'm working so hard to make sure other people feel validated by me.

‍

The more you rely on approval from others to feel okay, the less seen and the more isolated you actually feel. Even though people pleasing is an attempt to belong, it often creates the very disconnection we're trying so hard to avoid. If it's so counterproductive, why do we develop these people pleasing patterns of behavior?

‍

This is where I find parts work to be such a helpful perspective. When you think about your own people pleasing tendencies, I want you to think about that part of you as a protector part of you. Some part of you took up, pleasing others, trying to win the approval of others as its strategy and what's underneath that protector part of you is a deep fear that if I don't make that other person happy.

‍

I will not be okay. My life depends on their happiness. My okayness depends on their approval of me. So there's two different things going on. We've got that part of you that takes up the strategy and does all of the people pleasing activities that make us so mad at ourselves, but underneath that is a deep fear that I have to earn their love, that I can't disappoint them or I won't be.

‍

Okay. And here are five common reasons that that pattern might have surfaced inside of your own soul. Number one, attachment wounds. You may have learned early on that love was conditional. You didn't experience unconditional love from your caregivers, from the people around you, so a part of you learned that you had to work hard to earn love.

‍

Number two, high sensitivity to others' emotions. People who are highly empathetic and those high and emotional intelligence often pick up intuitively on others' needs quickly and adapt to keep the peace. So part of you just never learned how to set gentle boundaries with a gift that God has given you.

‍

Number three, enmeshment or blurred boundaries. In childhood, you may have taken responsibility for someone else's emotional wellbeing, especially a parent or a sibling, or an immediate family member, and you learn to conflate their happiness, their wellbeing with your own. Number four, religious or cultural messages.

‍

Many of us were taught explicitly that it's selfish to say no to have needs or to even put ourselves first. We sort of cringe inwardly at the thought. It just feels so selfish, like it goes against everything we've been taught. And number five, it can also be a form of trauma response. People pleasing can be a form of what therapist Pete Walker has called fawning, which is a stress response.

‍

Just as we fight or flee when we feel fearful or when we notice stress, right? We run toward conflict or we flee it. The fond response Walker theorized is a different sort of stress response that looks like being nice. It's a form of survival. If I can stay small and camouflage myself, then I won't be a threat.

‍

So as you listen, think about which one of those roots resonates most with your experience and above all. Please know that people pleasing once did keep you safe. It is a form of survival response, but if it's running your life now, it's time to bring compassion to that part of you and help it rest inside healthy boundary lines in your soul.

‍

I wanna talk a little bit about the Bible and people pleasing, and that touches on that. Number four, some of the religious and cultural messages, many of us received. One of the hardest things I hear from readers and listeners is this, I thought I was doing what God wanted, putting others first, dying to myself, but now I feel burned out, resentful and lonelier than ever.

‍

That's real. And unfortunately there are a few Bible verses that can get misused to reinforce. People pleasing. Here are two examples. Number one, the verse from Philippians two, three that says, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, rather, in humility, value others above yourselves. I love this verse.

‍

I have tried to live my life by this verse, but the truth is this verse is about humility. Not self erasure. It doesn't say, your needs don't matter. It doesn't say you don't matter. In fact, humility, I would argue flows from a strong sense of self, from being deeply acquainted with your own needs, with your own opinions, from being deeply connected with our own souls.

‍

Here are some examples of how humility differs from people pleasing. Let's say you're receiving critical feedback. Humility says, that's helpful. I hadn't considered that perspective. I'll reflect on it. People pleasing says, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to do it wrong. I'll fix it right away. Please don't be upset.

‍

Let's say someone disagrees with you. Humility says, I see that we disagree and I respect your perspective. Here's where I am coming from. People pleasing says, yes, totally. I agree. Even when you don't, when someone is disappointed in you, humility says, I understand that this isn't what you hoped for. I'm also making the choice that feels right for me.

‍

People pleasing says, I feel terrible. I'll change my decision so that you are not upset when it comes to service. Humility sounds like I'd love to help where I can and here's what I can realistically offer people pleasing sounds like whatever you need anything, just let me know. And then you feel resentful or depleted when you give more than you actually have.

‍

When someone asks you to do something you don't have capacity for. Humility says, I really value what you're doing, but I need to say no right now so that I can honor my other commitments. People pleasing says, sure, I can do it. Anything, even though you're overwhelmed. Do you see the distinction? Humility honors the other person.

‍

It honors their perspective without erasing yourself. The other verse that I talk about at length in my book, the best of you is Matthew 1624. Jesus says, deny yourself. Take up your cross and follow me. This one is a big one for me because I do believe in self-denial as a spiritual practice, but it gets so misconstrued, especially for women and especially for people who are inherently empathetic and especially for people who are carrying attachment wounds and trauma from childhood.

‍

Jesus isn't saying never have an opinion. He's inviting us to surrender false identities, not our God-given voice or our inherent dignity. And listen, sometimes our false identities that he's asking us to deny is the part of us working overtime to please. Others people pleasing is not the same as Christlike Love.

‍

Jesus was full of compassion and he had strong boundaries. He said no, he left crowds to rest. He sometimes disappointed other people and he spoke up when something wasn't right.

‍

Most of us try to fix people pleasing by only changing the outward behavior. We try to say no more often. We practice boundary scripts. We brace ourselves for disappointing others, and it's a good start. Sometimes we have to practice before something feels intuitive, but if we don't also address the inner fear.

‍

Driving those behaviors we're just muscling our way through. We're trying to fix ourselves instead of seeking the deeper transformational healing, I believe God has for us that deep inner fear is often that quiet voice inside each of us that says, if I stop pleasing them, will I be safe? Will I be loved?

‍

Will I be okay? This is not just about learning to behave differently. It's about learning to relate differently to the part of you that's afraid. It's about connecting to that part of you that never fully knew love. Let's walk through what that healing process can look like. Number one, name the part of you that people pleases.

‍

Simply notice what that part of you looks like, how it shows up. I notice there's a part of me that wants everyone to like me. That part of you isn't bad. It's trying to protect you, so we don't shame it. We get curious about it. What are you afraid would happen if I stop pleasing everyone? That one question can open the door to so much healing.

‍

Number two, let God's love speak louder than other people's approval. This one's hard because that approval often feels like safety, but this is why Susan's question was so powerful. How do I feel okay without someone else's approval that's such. A valid and real question. When we start to shift, it opens our soul up to a different kind of love, and it can often feel disorienting, uncomfortable, uncertain, like we've shifted how we show up with other people, but then what happens to the part of us that has been working so hard to fill that void with other people's approval?

‍

How do we bring that deeper part of us into. God's loving presence. It begins by rooting yourself in a love that doesn't shift with other people's moods, opinions or expectations. It means accessing that deeper younger. Part of you that maybe has never fully known what it's like to sit in the presence of love and to absorb into the depths of your being that you are not loved because you please others, you are loved because you are God's beloved child.

‍

Let that truth settle into your nervous system. Spend time in prayer or reflection with that fearful part of you. What if it's true that I'm loved by God? What if I'm safe, even if others are not pleased with me? When you stop pleasing others, it doesn't only affect your relationships with others, it affects your relationship with God.

‍

Parts of us have to learn what it feels like to receive. Love parts of us don't know what that feels like. When you've spent years pushing down your needs, beginning to care for yourself, your body, your mind, your emotions can feel like uncharted territory like Brie shared. It can even feel disorienting in your relationship with God.

‍

Here's the thing. Your body, your emotions are not obstacles. It's new to discover a God who is actually in your body, in your nervous system, in your breath, in your movement, in the way you breathe. Slow when you feel safe. What if God's present isn't something you only reach for outside of yourself, but something you learn to experience within yourself as you become more whole?

‍

Number three, practice speaking up bit by bit. As you become more aware of what's happening internally, take small steps to introduce change in your patterns. Healing doesn't mean swinging to the other extreme and becoming harsh or reactive. Healing is far more sustainable when you take small steps and introduce tiny changes and then allow your body, your nervous system, your emotions, the time to catch up.

‍

And lastly, get support. People pleasing patterns often run deep. They're often rooted in early experiences and deeply embedded cultural messages and spiritual beliefs. You don't have to untangle this alone. Check in with a therapist, a spiritual director, a good friend, a wise mentor who can help you notice these patterns and begin to rewrite them.

‍

As we close this episode, I want you to remember even the people pleasing part of you is. Beloved of God, don't beat yourself up for that. Part of you. Learn to get curious about those behaviors and the fears that lie underneath them. This is part of becoming integrated, becoming more whole. You are doing the brave work of coming home to yourself and learning to trust a God who wants to heal and be near every single part of you.

‍

That's the kind of love that doesn't require performance or pleasing, just presence.

‍

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode Of The Best of You, it would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or. Follow button that will ensure you don't miss an episode, and it helps get the word out to others while you're there.

‍

I'd love it if you leave your five star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God. You heal others and you stay true to your God given self.

‍

What if what keeps you going is also keeping you stuck?

Does venting actually help, or is it actually making you feel worse?

‍

This powerful, hope-filled conversation might just change your entire approach to rest—it did for me. Cognitive psychologist and neuroscientist Dr. Therese Huston joins me for a conversation that’s incredibly helpful for anyone feeling overwhelmed, emotionally drained, or stuck in numbing patterns. I’m not exaggerating when I say it is a game-changer.

‍

If you’ve been feeling off-center, burned out, or unsure how to truly rest, this episode will meet you with both compassion and science-backed tools to help you reset—even when you don’t have much time.

‍

We cover:

• The surprising truth about venting—and why it may not be helping
• Why certain “breaks” leave you more drained
• How to reset your brain in less than five minutes (yes, really)
• Simple, science-backed techniques to calm your nervous system
• Why numbing behaviors (like mindless snacking, scrolling, or binging TV) can feel good—but keep you stuck
• Two powerful on-air practices you can do right along with us
  
  

This is not about productivity hacks. It’s about reclaiming your peace and tending to your soul—so you can show up as the person you want to be, no matter what your day looks like.

‍

📘 Check out Sharp: 14 Simple Ways to Improve Your Life with Brain Science by Dr. Therese Huston 

📥 Grab your 3 free Boundaries For Your Soul resources here: 

📥 Download Alison’s free printable with the five boundary tools when you sign up for her weekly email.

‍

Here are some other episodes you might like :

Episode 132 : 3 Strategies for Managing Overwhelm and Emotional Stress in the Sandwich Generation

Episode 80: Navigating Overwhelming Emotions

Episode 146: The Difference Between Escape & Relief with Annie F. Downs

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here

‍

💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

‍

Thanks to our Sponsors!

• Go to ⁠Quince.com/bestofyou⁠ for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order!
• Better sleep starts today! Get a birch mattress and test it out for 100 nights risk-free PLUS a discount for being a listener by visiting birchliving.com/BESTOFYOU.
• If you’re looking for a Bible that helps you live the Word, not just read it, then grab this beautiful one I’m currently using at NIVapplicationbible.com.
• Reconnect with what truly matters and rediscover a purposeful life you love with Social Media Reset.
• Give online therapy a try and see how it can help you become more present, more aware, and more connected to the life you want to live. Visit  BetterHelp.com/BESTOFYOU.
• Check out cozyearth.com and use code BESTOFYOU to get 45% off. Sleep cooler, lounge lighter, and embrace your cozy days with Cozy Earth.

‍

Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

‍

Transcript:

‍

Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You. I'm so glad you're here with me this week. This is one of my favorite episodes, and the reason is it literally changed the trajectory of my summer,and I don't say that lightly.

The truth is I've been quietly working on a new book these past few months, and this one has been more personal than anything I've written before. It's really different than the books I've written in the past, and I'll share more with you about it later. It’s hard for me to come out from behind being a little bit more of the expert and be a little bit more vulnerable about some of the pain points and some of the wounds and some of the stories from my own life. 

And I had just turned in a rough draft of the manuscript the day before I was scheduled to record this podcast interview, and I was almost wanting to reschedule it, but I didn't wanna be unprofessional, but [00:01:00] the truth is I was tired mentally, emotionally, and physically, and over the last few weeks as I was kind of facing down the end of this deadline of getting this rough draft, and I had really started self-soothing in some old familiar ways that I haven't turned to a long time.

Binging reality television, reaching for sugar, ice cream. All the things I know aren't actually helping me feel restored, but that were just kind of old ways of trying to self-soothe and,

 And so I woke up the morning of the interview knowing to myself, I've gotta shift. I've gotta figure out how to get back into healthier habits. I don't wanna stay in this place. And I found myself literally asking, but how do I reset?

How do I come back? To center, especially when I still have so much to do and I, I don't wanna continue down this path, just muscling my way through and then checking out. I, I wanna get back to [00:02:00] a better place, a better way of working, and I'm not sure how to do that. And then this very day I recorded this conversation that I'm gonna share with you with Dr.Therese Houston. And I'm telling you the exercises she walks me through.

At the end of this episode, they only took maybe two minutes and it shifted something deep inside of me. Dr. Therese Houston is a cognitive psychologist and neuroscientist at Seattle University, and she's the author of a brand new book, it's called Sharp: 14 Simple Ways to Improve Your Life With Brain Science.

She's written for the New York Times Time, Harvard Business Review and more, and she has an incredible gift for making science both practical and deeply compassionate. In this conversation, we explore what kind of rest your brain actually needs. especially when a full day off isn't an option.

We talk about the kinds of breaks [00:03:00] that truly restore your energy, focus and presence. And which habits, like mindless scrolling or emotional eating, the ones I was turning to, can quietly drain you even more. And toward the end of the episode, Dr. Houston walks me through 

 two simple realtime exercises. I do them on air, and you could do them right along with us. And I am not exaggerating when I say I felt like I had just had. A massage, my whole body relaxed. My mind softened, and something shifted deep inside. This is not about a productivity hack.

It's about giving your soul space to breathe 

so that you can come home to yourself and return to your day, whether you're parenting, whether you're working, no matter what you're doing, a better version of yourself. If you've been feeling overwhelmed, depleted, if you've found yourself numbing out more than usual or just slightly off center, this episode [00:04:00] will 

 meet you right where you need to be met. I am thrilled to bring you my conversation with Dr. Therese Houston.

‍

Alison Cook: Therese, I'm so thrilled to meet you and to have this conversation with you. You've got such an amazing body of research and expertise that I'm thrilled to dive into today, especially with this new book. Can you just share with us a little bit about yourself and your background? What exactly it is that you do and how, what led you to

Therese Huston: Oh, thank you so much, Alison. It is such a treat to be here. You have such a warm and helpful show. I, I think this is a resource more people need to know about. Well, I am a cognitive psychologist by training, not, cognitive behavioral therapy, but I'm a scientist. Uh, I spent a lot of time in the lab, so I have my PhD as well as I've done postdoctoral work in clinical cognitive neuroscience.

So really focusing on the brain [00:05:00] and then. In a a what probably seems like a strange detour. I also got a degree at the business school at University of Oxford, so that was a lot of fun and really provides a nice compliment to like learning about how to be a good leader as well as taking a scientific perspective on, on the brain and how to take better care of ourselves and be sharper.

You know, be as mentally sharp as we can be. And what led me to this particular work, this book, sharp, is that, uh, I don't know about you, but during the peak of the pandemic, I found myself so drawn into the news cycle I'd go to sit. Down at my desk to work and instead of getting into my work, I would check the newsfeed and, you know,do we have a vaccine yet, or do you know what's, what's the status on, on in my neighborhood?

You know, what are the rates in, in my local area of COVID? Anyway, I got, I developed some really bad habits in terms of not getting focused. The way I used to. And so I needed some strategies for myself [00:06:00] to improve, my ability to focus. And since I've got a neuroscience background, I looked, does neuroscience have any tips on how to get better focused?

And sure enough, there was some great research out there that I'd never seen and that made me curious about, oh, are there tips for improving memory? Are there strategies for being more creative? Or, you know, all from neuroscience perspective is what I. As the filter I was using, and sure enough, there's so much helpful stuff.

I, I realized I need to share this because if it's helping me, it can help other people.

Alison Cook: I am so excited. This is so timely because I think with the last election cycle similarly and just with social media in general, many of us get into that habit of, and I've seen it in myself. I've been working on some writing myself these last few months, and I'm just aware, I'm like, oh my. focus, I can tell, has, has changed.

And and you know, and I can go down the self shame cycle of what's wrong with me and beating myself up, but [00:07:00] the reality is something real is happening in our brains and there are real. Ways to reset and renew and refocus. And so when I saw this book, I was just so excited to have you on.

I wanna say one other thing -  you're an actual neuroscientist

Therese Huston: am, I, I, I've, done work in the lab and with patients and, um, done research on testosterone levels. So I am a real neuroscientist.

Alison Cook:You know, it's very trendy in many ways right now to say neuroscience

Therese Huston: right? Yes.

Alison Cook: What does that really mean? I, I think sometimes that's misused, but you are the person who's actually behind what we mean you, and you know many others, but [00:08:00] I mean, it's a very specific field. It's a very specific kind of study. So what do we mean when we say neuroscience?

Therese Huston: Such a great question and I'm glad you asked because all too often I'll, see a popular article in a popular magazine that says it's gonna talk about brain science or neuroscience, and then they don't talk about neuroscience at all. And I'm like, well, that's really good psychology research, which is very important.

We, we should be paying attention to that. But it's not about the brain or about the nervous system, right? So for it to qualify as neuroscience, there should be some mention of either a specific brain area, or something in the body that relates to the nervous system. So that might be talking about 

 dopamine levels, like neurotransmitter levels, cortisol levels, oxytocin, which is a hormone that can affect your thinking as well as how you feel. So if it's talking about something that's biological, right, and it might even be a term you've never heard before, like the anterior cingulate cortex.

If, if it sound like, I don't know what that is. [00:09:00] That's part of the brain. And so that would be neuroscience. Whereas if it's just talking about, for instance emotion regulation, deeply important and so much great psychology research there. But for it to be qualified as neuroscientific research, there'd be mention of a specific brain area or mention of, serotonin, something that's specific to the physiology.

Alison Cook: I love it. So 

 as such, you're studying not just cognitive, as the our thoughts, our thinking life. You're studying how that works in our

Therese Huston: Exactly, and what's exciting are. I started doing research in cognitive neuroscience in the mid nineties, and what's been exciting to see change is, in the nineties, we were only focused on things like, uh, how does attention work? And now we've gotten to a point where we can start to talk about.

Well, what happens when you're creative, right? What happens in the brain when a person's being creative versus when they're stuck in a rut? what happens when a person is feeling emotionally triggered? And so [00:10:00] there are so many things that we now know, we're beginning to understand what's happening in the brain.

There's so many things like we, we, we still need to move into the direction of what is the neuroscience of. Feeling connected to God. We don't know that yet. you know, that's, there are so many new areas. I know we will get there. We're not quite there yet, but we're moving in the right direction to understand so many more experiences through how the brain functions.

Alison Cook: Well, I, I love this and on behalf of many of my listeners, many of us, including myself, grew up in faith traditions that in many ways have created. Incredible resources, spiritual resources on one hand. And also there have been some misunderstandings of the biology of the brain where certain thought patterns, certain habits, certain behavioral styles, have been categorized as wrong or sinful, when in fact brain [00:11:00] science is now helping us understand.

This is just the way your brain is working. Doesn't mean maybe we like it, but it also takes away this stigma. And so I just wanna thank you for your work and your research. I think it's so freeing for so many people to really understand the brain and the mind and the nervous system. It's complicated and it's easy to.

Beat ourselves up and blame ourselves for certain ways that we behave, when in fact our brains and our nervous systems are just doing what they know how to do. And you're gonna give me

Therese Huston: Yeah, it's very true. I, I just had a recent conversation on a podcast about the neuroscience of bias, and that's a really fascinating area where, you know, we might judge other people for being biased and feel like we're not biased ourselves, but there are so many ways that. In-group favoritism is automatic and we have to fight it, right?

So it's really interesting. I, I do think that [00:12:00] we're often hard on ourselves around things that we don't want to see in ourselves or we don't wanna see in others. the good news is these things aren't inevitable. the hard part is, is that we need to educate ourselves as to, okay, I'm gonna fall into that pattern.

For instance, maybe I fall into a pattern of, of venting to people when I'm really, that's not productive for me, but I, I can't think of another way. 'cause I just need, it feels like I'm blowing off steam, but after I vent, I don't feel any better. Right. So it's really helpful to find out, oh, well we're, we're learning enough through neuroscience that we can find out what's a better way to spend that break instead of just venting to your colleagues or venting to your partner.

Alison Cook: Amazing. You just, okay. Teed us

Therese Huston: Oh,

Alison Cook: perfectly. 'cause this is what I wanna get into. Okay. So let's talk about breaks, right? We're, let's just, let's start there. I wanna get to sleep, but I wanna start right where we are with breaks, we. Going through the day, we've got a million things to do. Maybe we're parenting, maybe we're [00:13:00] at work.

Maybe we have 16 things on our to-do list and we're exhausted. and I've just been living this Therese, I've just been living this. I'm like, I know there's probably a choice I could make right now that would

Therese Huston: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: me, but what I really wanna do is eat a candy bar. is you know, scroll.

On TikTok, you know, I mean, which I recently discovered. I never understood it before. Now I'm like, I get it. I get why? It just is crack for the brain. I'm doing the very things I know enough not know this is not actually helping me, but it does feel like a hit of relief in

Therese Huston: It does. It does. And so what's tricky here is that we need to think there are things that are cognitively restorative. So there are things that can make it easier for you to make decisions easier for you to concentrate and focus. So that would, those would be cognitive [00:14:00] resets.

There are things that can help you emotionally reset so that you feel you can come in and be more patient or be in a better mood or help someone even when you're tired, OR lead even when you're tired. So that would be emotional reset. then there are unfortunately things that just make us numb, right?

Things that just.

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Therese Huston: Help us get out of the moment. And there are times when you need to, and you probably know this from your own work, is there are times when we need psychological detachment. We need to be able to get some distance from whatever's upsetting, right? But if it's just for the purpose of numbing, so you mentioned candy bars.

For me it's ice cream. Okay. that's a break that I will sometimes take that it starts off as feeling so good and then it was like, uh, yeah. That, that is not helping me reengage with what I need to reengage with. So I think a really nice question to ask yourself after taking. A break, whether that's a, snack break or a scrolling break [00:15:00] or, You know, you take a walk or you do some jumping jacks, right? But after you you've treated yourself to some kind of break. Ask yourself, do I feel more ready to blank? Do I feel more ready to focus, to lead, to help? Or do I just feel like I've kind of checked out 

It's okay to check out some of the time, but if, if all of your breaks are just helping you check out, it's not doing that cognitive reset or that emotional reset that's going to to, to help you show up in the way you wanna show up.

Alison Cook: Sometimes it's healthy to get detachment. Like the, the times when I think that it's helpful to get detachment. I, when I think of a work context, there's just been an announcement of huge.

Therese Huston: Reorganization that's taking place and you're gonna report to someone you don't know or don't like, like you're like, you need a little distance from this because otherwise it's just gonna be a bad day all around. And all your colleagues are on the Slack channel or talking and they're all upset and you just need to push away a little bit.

That would be a time when you'd need some detachment. 

‍

AD BREAK I

‍

Alison Cook: I notice sometimes I will put on a podcast, maybe I'm cooking dinner, and I'll think to myself, I don't wanna listen to the news,

Therese Huston: Yes.

Alison Cook: but I will make myself, because I feel like I should know what's going on in the news.

What I really wanna do is listen to a comedian and are you saying that there's maybe something legitimate there?

Therese Huston: absolutely. So. in terms of, giving yourself a cognitive break or an emotional break, either one of those, those cognitive or emotional resets, there is so much legitimacy to, it needs to be something for the cognitive reset. It needs to be something that doesn't require your focus. Right. it's not taking effort for you to focus, right?

So reading a novel is something that actually stokes imagination, but it doesn't take, unless it's a novel you aren't enjoying and you're [00:17:00] just reading it for your book club, right? But if, as long as it's a novel that you're like, I can't wait to get back to my book, right? for me, it's mystery novels.

If it, if it's enticing, right? It's the thing that if anything, you're having to say, oh, I can only read for 10 minutes. That would be something that's going to help you both cognitively reset. It'll actually improve your. Um, what's something called the default mode network will become activated, and that's something that often gets suppressed when we're overly focused.

And having the default mode network activated is, is helpful in terms of feeling restored. So, so reading a novel as long as it's a fun novel for you, that that helps with the cognitive reset and also the emotional reset people experience. there's actually a study from 2009 that found that.

Just six minutes and that's all it took was six minutes of reading. A fun book decreased, perceived stress levels by 68%. That's huge, right? So short, right? Six minutes. You don't have to have a half an hour. You don't have to be on a beach. Or in my case, the hammock in the backyard, [00:18:00] six minutes. And it was more effective than walking.

It was more effective than listening to music. So in terms of if you need a stress reduction technique, you know, grab a book. What I do is I actually set a timer for me. I'll give myself 10 minutes, but I'll set a timer so that I don't, I'm not thinking like, oh crap, I need to get back to the thing.

Instead, I just set a timer.

Alison Cook: that is so helpful because when we're talking about what are actually restorative breaks. Versus kind of our, our go-to ice cream or sugar scrolling, which isn't giving us that restoration. Am I, am I correct in

Therese Huston: Yes. And we can, we can talk more about the pros and cons of scrolling, but chances are, it's not giving you a cognitive or an emotional reset. Yeah.

Alison Cook: Okay, so, I, this is very interesting to me. So I'm gonna say a couple of things and then we'll try to 'cause in my mind, and it's a little bit like eating our vegetables in my mind, I know. I'm like taking a walk, taking deep breaths. let's put it this way, when I've been [00:19:00] off game, I, I can think, oh, I should do those things, but they're not, it's like eating vegetables when you've been having a lot of sugar.

It's,,it's a big, big leap. It's hard to get there when you've been kind of on a bender, right? So lower hanging fruit, to me that might be a little bit like, you just said it, a novel. Music I heard you say like, then parts of me start to go, oh, that actually sounds enjoyable. Not just like jumping to vegetables, but maybe like a intermediary.

And so I think I'm hearing you saying there are many ways, some of them are enjoyable, but in this category of things that are going to be truly restorative.

Therese Huston: it absolutely does, and it's fascinating. So. Reading a novel, like I said, for as little as six minutes. Another good one that that might feel like it's a juicy, guilty pleasure is listening to music that gives you chills. So this is important. So you don't just wanna turn on [00:20:00] Pandora or Spotify and listen to, you know, some station that's, that's the top 40, right?

You don't wanna do that. What you wanna do is what's the song that when you listen to it, you get chills? Okay? Like where it gives you goosebumps. Um, for me right now, there's a song by Buzi that I really like that when I listen to it, I just like perk up and I just feel like I wanna move with it, right?

So what researchers have found is that, When you feel those chills, you're getting a dopamine hit and it's a good kind of, so there's, you know, people can talk about us being addicted to dopamine, but dopamine when, especially if you're feeling tired or depleted from caring or leading, when you get that dopamine hit, you will feel re-energized and you'll feel like you have more motivation to dive back into whatever is hard.

you can kind of make your own little dopamine playlist of like, what are the songs that give me chills? Doesn't matter if no one else likes 'em, but it does it for me. And then have that available, you know, on your phone or whatever device so that when you [00:21:00] need, or in your car have the cd, you know, already installed and ready to go hit that song.

And. Even if you just sit in your driveway and listen to it for three minutes, you, you can then be like, alright, I can, woo. I feel so much better. And, and even if you move right or if you're on TikTok you mentioned, you know, it's so easy to, to be critical of, of, of teenagers who are like, oh, they just wanna watch the dance moves.

Try them actually moving motion, if that's fun for you. Fabulous. No one needs to see it. You don't need to record yourself.

Alison Cook: Right. You don't have to fill

Therese Huston: Exactly. movement really helps shake off stress and reduce cortisol levels.

Alison Cook: Okay, so it's, it's as if science is validating that inner impulse, and I'm thinking about the Grey's Anatomy phenomenon, and I, I think Sandra o actually did this at, uh, she was the commencement speaker at my alma mater and she had everybody do a dance moment that dance it out, is actually helping you, it's actually doing something in your brain and nervousness.[00:22:00] 

Therese Huston: Yeah. Well, it's really interesting because, so, in broad strokes, we have a, two different nervous systems. We have a sympathetic nervous system, which is a strange name, but it basically is the fight or flight part of your nervous system. The, like, I'm gonna push hard, I've gotta try hard.

And there's the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest system. It's the calming down. And what's interesting is about. Dance is, it actually helps activate, it does many things to the brain as well, but it actually can help activate the parasympathetic nerve system. And when you think about it, you wouldn't dance if you were about to have to flee a scary animal, right?

That right. And so, you would, you would dance when you're relaxed, right? And so it's basically giving your body a signal like, Hey, we're relaxed right now. And so You're sending a signal through your body, up to your brain, like, Hey, everything's okay right now.

Alison Cook: Oh wow. And that gives your body some restoration. It, it actually, physiologically, uh. It's [00:23:00] such a bottom up to use the language of psychology hack and I'm such a head in my head person, and so it's telling yourself

Therese Huston: I'm okay. Yes.

Alison Cook: through your

Therese Huston: right. And we can talk about some other techniques where your body can signal to your brain, Hey, we're okay. but dance is kind of a fun one. and if it's, if dance isn't your thing, don't, don't put yourself under that pressure. But if that's something that like, oh, I can take a dance break and that would help me reengage and perform better the rest of the day.

Yes, please.

Alison Cook: Yep. That is Okay. I wanna, I'm curious because again, there's the things we, and again, there's no shame in this, but are the things we're sort of hardwired or conditioned or, you know, whether it's grabbing a, the food or, the phone.

The other one you mentioned this, that I think some of us do is

to a friend or to a colleague, or to a spouse. What is it about venting It [00:24:00] can feel good in the moment, but that is not actually giving us that restoration. And what would a alternate healthier, more restorative option B.

Therese Huston: Great question. So. I think part of what can feel initially helpful about that venting is particularly if the other person's really good at validating right then, that then you can feel like, I'm not crazy. This is truly awful, truly stressful, truly too much, right? And so that validation can be helpful.

 unfortunately ti I know I certainly did this with a number of colleagues over the years when we were in the workspace together is, you know, something awful just happened in a meeting. And you go in their office and you close the door and the two of you complain about how awful and awful and awful it is, and then.

And neither of you has come to any solutions. You basically have said this is outside of our control. And the brain loves control, right? So if all, and, and, and they're fabulous research with animals where [00:25:00] they put mice on a treadmill and they make them run. the mouse has the option to run when it wants, or it's forced to run on the little little mouse treadmill.

And when the mouse has the option to run and can control when it runs. Huge health benefits, right? Improved cardiovascular health, improved gut health, but if you force that mouse to run for the exact same amount of time and the same intensity. They'll develop stomach problems, they'll develop cardiovascular problems.

So the exercise actually hurts them when they can't control when they do it, which is fascinating, right? We just think of exercise as helping our bodies, not when you're forced to do it. So the takeaway shouldn't be, you should never exercise. The takeaway should be our bodies crave a sense of control.

So if you're gonna vent to a spouse, to a colleague, even to a friend, After you get past that validation stage, and you can even say What I right need right now is validation, then move into problem solving before you walk away. what's one thing I can do that could make this a little bit better and move, move into [00:26:00] that space.

And that will increase your perception of control. So you'll get the validation as well as you'll get, there is something I can do and you might not be able to change. Let's say it's something at work. You might not be able to change what's happening at work, but you can change your emotional response to it.

 I am going to, not get angry when this happens. Right. I am, I'm instead going to choose compassion or something like that.

Alison Cook: That's so interesting. So, gosh. there's a lot in what you just said. I, think what I hear you saying is the need for validation in and of itself isn't bad and can provide some relief. It's when it just goes negative dumping with no sort of counterbalancing. Okay, what are we gonna do? Sort of proactive. that's a nuance to that. 

Therese Huston: Yeah. And I think we've all been in the situation where someone else will start suggesting solutions and we don't see them as solutions that would work for us, right? So for instance, I have a, a [00:27:00] family member who's having some financial problems and I hear other family members saying, just talk to the bank or just do this, and this person will not take any of those routes.

And I know this is adding stress to his life because he's like, but I'm not gonna do that. Right.

Alison Cook: Right.

Therese Huston: In fact, if anything, it's taking away his sense of control because the solutions that are obvious to everyone else are not clear pathways for him. So, so what's important there is, is to move to the, what could I do that would increase my sense of control?

What, what would be one step that I would be willing to realistically take?

Alison Cook: so let's say I'm venting to a friend or to my sister, but at the end of it, it's really on, there's something about agency, about saying, this was hard, this happened. I'm struggling. I don't need you to solve it. 'cause that also, so, so you're right.

It's, it's the over validation doesn't solve it, but also them trying to fix it. Doesn't solve it, it's here's what's going on. So there's a little bit of [00:28:00] validation there. Okay. That helps me get back into the part of my brain that says, here's my agency in

Therese Huston: yes, very well said.

 you can say even at the beginning of the conversation, like let's say you go to to vent with a colleague or a friend and you say, Hey, I wanna vent first? I wanna hear your venting. And then can we move to problem solving? Like, that would be the most helpful for me because people don't know this.

If they haven't listened to our conversation, they wouldn't know that, that we need to end on problem solving. Right.

Alison Cook: Yes. So you can say,

Therese Huston: yeah, I think that's a very reasonable ask, and the other person's gonna feel better as well. So it's an educational moment that you can provide

Alison Cook: then they know how to help

Therese Huston: Exactly. And people want to, right? Yeah. And, and you probably know the people who only want to vent and don't wanna get to problem solving, right? Those would not be people to, to turn to in those extremely stressful moments.

Alison Cook: Yeah, that's really helpful. Okay, I wanna touch on exercise. You mentioned it with the research on mice, [00:29:00] and I wanna touch on it because I live in a family with others who find a lot of restoration through exercise. So the biggest stress reliever for a couple of my immediate family members is take a jog, work out, go to the gym. That is not what I wanna do when I'm stressed. I, I want to do that to be healthy, but it's not for me the primary way that I feel relief from stress. or restoration. Sometimes a good walk does. 

My question for you is, is what we [00:30:00] need to feel restored, unique? Are we different person to person? Number one, is it possible that for some people exercise is absolutely the thing For others it's not. It doesn't mean we don't need to do it, but we might need to do it for a different reason.

Therese Huston: Brilliantly said, what I encourage here is self experimentation and by that I mean we each need to find what are the breaks that are restorative to us. And you're absolutely right. Things that are restorative for some or not restorative for all. A classic example of that is there's a great finding. For women that a 32nd hug from someone who's safe lowers cortisol levels. That's not true for all women, but it's true on average. 

For most women, it's tends to be less true for men and. What's fascinating is some studies find it helps men. Some [00:31:00] studies find it doesn't, and researchers have kind of scratch their heads and basically what they find is there's just a huge difference among men and it kind of depends on the sample that you get in their research study as to whether you've got men who appreciate a hug and it makes them feel safe and grounded, or men for whom that now just raises questions of like, is this leading somewhere? Is this right? It as opposed to just for women, it seems to increase oxytocin. For men—it can increase other things that are then confusing. 

So researchers have found that 30 seconds of affection from someone else lowers cortisol levels. As long as that person feels safe and touch feels safe for you and so on, especially for women, it's, it's very restorative.

20 seconds is, kind of the tipping point. 30 seconds is even better. This is the thing that my husband and I will often do. we'll be giving each other a hug in the kitchen in the morning, and he'll start to let go. I'll be long. I'll say [00:32:00] longer. Today. I need longer. It's very sweet. 

AD BREAK II

‍

Therese Huston: Let's try something real quick here. Okay, we're gonna do, a soothing self touch. So some of you might be thinking, I don't have someone to hug Therese. At least not at this point in my life. Some, at least I don't have someone who will withstand a 22nd hug.

So let's try something else that you can do even without a partner. So, um. first of all, I would just like you to rate your stress levels right now, Allison, on a scale of one to 10, where a 10 would be, I'm as stressed as I've ever been, and one is I'm so low stress, I could fall asleep. What, what number would you give it? 

Alison Cook: Five. 

Therese Huston: Okay, there we go. Yeah. Five or six. Good. And that makes sense. We're having a recorded conversation, which, which takes the stress up a little. Alright, great. So now what I want you to do is I want you to take both hands and put them really gently in kind of your heart space, whatever feels like your heart space to you.

And just make some small, gentle, circular motions just soothing little. So like very soft caresses at the amount of pressure that feels good to you. Just, we're just gonna [00:33:00] do that for a few seconds and close your eyes if you want, or you can just keep them open, whatever feels right to you. And just really focus on the warmth of your hands, how that's feeling kind of resonating.

Imagine it kind of flowing through into your chest, into your lungs, into your heart. And if we were gonna do this for the full amount of time, we would do this for 20 or 30 seconds, but we're just gonna do it for about 10 here. Okay. Now you can keep your hands there if you want, but I'd love for you to rate, again, on a scale of one to 10, how do your stress levels feel?

Alison Cook:Three

Therese Huston: Three. Right? It's so nice.

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Therese Huston: So psychologists would call that soothing self touch. Research shows that what we just did, especially to hold it for 20 to 30 seconds, will actually reduce your cortisol levels on par with a hug from someone else. Now. That's on average. Some people it will be hires. For some it won't work.

But this is a great self experiment to do. Ask [00:34:00] yourself before you try the technique. What's my stress level? And then ask yourself afterwards, what's my stress level now? And to see if it's changed. And if you find that the heart doesn't work. What's nice about the heart is it's if by putting your hands here, you're activating the vagus nerve.

 and the vagus nerve sends signals up and down, up to your brain, down to your heart's, lungs and gut. But by putting your hands on your heart, you're sending. Through your heart, a signal via your vagus nerve up to your brain. It reduces amygdala activity. It also increases activity in your prefrontal cortex.

So should, you should actually be a clearer thinker now than you were before we did that activity.

Alison Cook: more

Therese Huston: Yes. Right. Yeah. And it's, you know, maybe you can't do that in a meeting with your boss, but I've done it. I've done it in line. At a store where the line's not moving and I'm starting to be like, I should just return everything to the shelves and leave just jettison myself.

And I'll be like, you know what? You gotta finish this errand. You gotta do it. You're here. You've already invested the time, and I'll [00:35:00] do that. And I will be so much less stressed about standing in that line.

Alison Cook: that is powerful. I wish we had done that at the beginning of the interview, right? I mean, no, I, I could. That's a really, literally self-soothing exercise. Therese, what are other examples like that of these, especially, I'm thinking of my listeners who are really busy , you know, or maybe have little kids around them. 

Therese Huston: Yes. Right. So that's a nice one too. And you can teach it, especially if you have little ones you're taking care of. You can say, Hey, we're all gonna do a soothing self hug. All right, let's everybody get in their favorite spot. lie down or sit down, you know, get in your favorite cozy chair. We're all gonna do this for 30 seconds.

So you could, you know, that's, that's a fun one. If I can demo another one, another nice. [00:36:00] we're gonna do a, a breathing technique that also activates the vagus nerve and can send a signal again to your amygdala that there's no threat and activate the prefrontal cortex. We'll talk about that more in a second.

So, I'll explain the technique first and then we'll step through it. But here's what I'm gonna ask you to do in a moment. I'll ask you. To exhale all of your air. Not yet, but when a moment, I'll tell you to. And then I'm gonna have you do a slow inhale to a count of five, and I'll do the count out loud.

That's a long, slow inhale. Most of us don't inhale that slowly, so be ready for that. You're gonna hold for two. And then we're gonna exhale for seven, which is again, a very slow exhale. I find most people find that long inhale the hardest. If, if at three you're like, Therese, I've already inhaled all my air.

There's no more that I can take in. Just start holding your breath early. That won't. Affect the impact of this. What's most important is the super slow exhale. So what I recommend here is to purse your lips. So if you're good at slow exhales, you can [00:37:00] just breathe through your nose.

But if that, you think that's gonna be tricky, just breathe like you're blowing out through a straw. Okay? And that can help slow down your breath. And we'll do two cycles. and I'll step you through it. Okay. You ready? Okay, great. So exhale all of your air. And, and we're gonna inhale 2, 3, 4, 5. Hold, two.

Exhale, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Again, inhale, 2, 3, 4, 5. Hold. Two. Exhale. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Great. So going back to that scale one to 10, where would you be now?

Alison Cook: Oh, well now, probably two.

Therese Huston: Even lower [00:38:00] Wow. Between the two. Yeah. Right. I mean, even just, I, I wasn't just guiding you through it. I feel more relaxed,

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Therese Huston: the important part is just the exhales longer than the inhale. Some people play with like a four eight, where they inhale for four and they exhale for eight.

You can play with what's comfortable for your body, but. The slow exhale, particularly if you do it through purse lips, is activating the vagus nerve, by activating it partially through your throat as well as through your lungs. And again, that's telling the amygdala there's no threat. But the prefrontal cortex researchers have actually found that in the lab because this activates areas of the prefrontal cortex right behind your forehead that are responsible for making hard decisions.

Decision making improves. so not only can you do this when you're stressed out about something in your home life or your work life, you can do this when you're like, I just don't wanna make a decision and I can tell I don't wanna make a decision, do this, and you, you would wanna do it for about two minutes.

We just did 30 seconds. So two cycles is 30 seconds. Eight [00:39:00] cycles of that will be a full two minutes. And researchers find objectively that it's, it's like the murky clouds part and It may still be a hard decision, maybe one you don't wanna make, but you'll have more clarity. Isn't that amazing?

Alison Cook: it's interesting. It's sort of counterintuitive in a way because when we're stressed, when we're worked up, it seems like to me there's a part of us that wants to go harder, wants to push harder. And so there's a counterintuitive thing you're training your nervous system to do, which is, and I think we want that 'cause we wanna get to the other side. And so we're training our nervous system that actually the way to the other side is through the restoration.

Therese Huston: Well said. Yeah. Instead of thinking, I'm gonna power through, think if I don't do something, I'm gonna power down. And if you think that to yourself, it'll be easier to say, [00:40:00] okay, I need to, I need to take a break. for me, I will know that I need to take a break, and maybe it's gonna be a breathing break.

Maybe it's one of the soothing self touch breaks. I'll know that I need to do that if I'm going from calm to irritable in seconds, right? Because that's not my normal mode. If, if I'm getting irritated that quickly, that means that my prefrontal cortex, which. is key for in impulse control is fatigued and so my impulses are taking over.

And so maybe there's a different sign for you, but look for the signs that indicate like, oh, that's my body saying it needs a break, I'm gonna give it one.

Alison Cook: Wow, that, yeah, that's, that's actually a cue. I need a break. And these are two very, Easy, simple that anybody can do. Ways that you are, signaling to your brain that you're caring for it.

Therese Huston: your brain doesn't need long breaks. So often we feel like in order to get a break, we need to go to the spa,[00:41:00] 

Alison Cook: Yes. I was just thinking that.

Therese Huston: take a nap. Yep. You know, I've, I've got my mother-in-law, Gets respite care because she's caring for her husband who has dementia and she, doesn't feel she can get a break unless someone comes to the house for three hours and she can leave, which is too bad because I, you know, she certainly needs those breaks.

I'm not saying she doesn't, but it's, it's too, you know, I hope she listens to your show because they're called micro breaks by psychologists and neuroscientists. A micro break is anywhere from one to 10 minutes and. The kind of breathing breaks, reading a novel, a quick walk break. A break as, as little as a six minute walk has tremendous benefits for reducing cortisol, improving serotonin.

So know that a one to 10 minute break can be all you need to reset.

Alison Cook: That's amazing. So helpful. 

What is the difference between numbing and a true restorative break?

Therese Huston: That one is a great question. And it's tricky because with numbing, what you're doing is There are certain brain areas that need a break. let's say you've been trying really hard to be supportive of someone else, right?

Whether that's at work or at home, you will probably feel emotionally exhausted from having to be patient when you don't feel patient or having to be positive when you don't feel positive anymore, right? So that's emotionally tiring, and that's going to reduce your dopamine levels. It's gonna reduce serotonin levels, uh, and that's, it's called surface acting.you're faking it. 

You feel like you have to do it, and that's emotionally exhausting. And so you could do something numbing like, compulsive [00:44:00] snacking or scrolling on your phone and that's gonna take away in the moment that sense of like, I can't handle this anymore.

However, it's not going to improve your dopamine levels or improve your serotonin levels in order to do that. You need to do one of the things that we've already suggested, so dopamine will go back up. If you listen to music, that gives you chills. For instance, serotonin will go up if you go for a quick nature walk, or if you do the soothing self hug.

That can also help with serotonin and oxytocin levels. So doing something that even though you wouldn't have perhaps thought to turn to it. If it can improve these brain chemicals, you're, you're restoring something that was depleted and now you are going to truly feel like, oh, I can lean back in. a little litmus test that I do is, do I just wanna keep doing that activity?

Chances are it's numbing, right? that might be a nice litmus test where it's like, I don't wanna return to the problem. I just wanna keep the distraction going. That's sign of a bad [00:45:00] distraction. Whereas if you're like, I listened to one song, it would be nice to listen to another song, but you know what?

I can do this. I can go back in 

Alison Cook:  That's so helpful. and sometimes, again, that's why you're saying sometimes we do need that detachment that just, I've gotta distract myself. It's a survival mechanism in a way but it's not actually, I think of an athlete going out for a break. It's like sending that athlete out for a break and giving them, you know, a glass of wine that's not gonna help them get back on the court.

And win the game. They need actual nourishment to be able to re replenish and reset so that they can finish and get back in and finish the game.

Therese Huston: It's a really good distinction. Yeah. Gatorade would be better in that moment than, than wine, right?

Alison Cook: Yeah. But that's kind of with parenting or with work, it's similar. We, we actually wanna give ourselves something so that we can come back and do the hard thing that we wanna wanna do. That's, this is just so helpful.

Therese Huston: And I think a thing for anyone who feels guilty taking breaks. I, you know, I was in a leadership group recently where there was a woman who clearly felt guilty taking breaks and actually got angry at the leader who was facilitating the group, who was suggesting she needed to take more breaks.

I think a way to reframe this for yourself is that you're not stepping away from your responsibilities. You are stepping into the version of yourself that can better handle those

Alison Cook: Hmm. That's good. Yes, you're actually doing yourself and everyone around you a service.

Therese Huston: exactly, exactly. Because we need mantras. We need something to tell ourselves. In that moment, I tell myself, I, you know, you can't pour from an empty cup, which helps. But I really, I really like this idea of I'm not, I'm not stepping away from my responsibilities. I'm stepping into a version of myself that can handle them.

Alison Cook:  I love that.  Tell us about the book, where people can find it, and how you think the book will really provide this kind of relief that people [00:42:00] really need?

Therese Huston: I think so many of us feel in constant overwhelm, whether that's from the news cycle, whether that's from work and fear of jobs being cut, or your personal life, you know, you're caring for more. people and in more ways than you ever imagined you would, or that you feel prepared for.

you know, you feel like you're failing at everything. I think. So many of us are in a state of constant overwhelm and our devices just pull us into things that are numbing and give us that detachment, but that don't actually give us a break. And so I think we need more tools and, and my hope with the book.

Most of the tools in there are five minutes or less, just like the two exercises we just demonstrated. So there are things you can fit in, and I, I organize the book so that you could quickly turn to the chapter you want. You don't have to start from the beginning and read to the end. Instead, you can be like, I, I need help with decision making.

What does the chapter on decision making say? Right? Because I've gotta face a hard decision, maybe deciding whether to put them in assisted living or not. So some something that you need right now. I promise [00:43:00] you that book probably has a strategy that you can do in less than 10 minutes.

So that's my hope is to say neuroscience has got your back. your best days are still ahead of you.

Alison Cook: This is beautiful. The book is Sharp. 14 Simple Ways to Improve Your Life with Brain Science. Amazing. So, so [00:47:00] helpful. Therese, I would love to have you back on sometime. I think what you're doing is just so needed and I'm

Therese Huston: Thank you, Alison. I feel like we do good work together and I, I just feel honored to be here.

Alison Cook: Thank you. 

‍