Daring Joy: Breaking Free from Fear, Cynicism, and Toxic Positivity with Therapist Nicole Zasowski

Have you ever found yourself afraid to feel joy - worried that if you celebrate, the other shoe will inevitably drop?

So many of us quietly hold joy at arm’s length. We tell ourselves it’s safer not to get our hopes up than to risk being let down again. What if joy isn’t a fleeting feeling for the lucky few, but a courageous practice we can all learn?

Dr Alison sits down with therapist and author Nicole Zasowski to talk about her journey of choosing joy in the face of loss. Nicole shares how she discovered that joy can be the most vulnerable emotion of all - and why learning to celebrate is one of the most important practices we can cultivate in our lives.

Together, you’ll learn:

• The surprising reason joy can feel harder than grief or disappointment
• The difference between toxic positivity and true, grounded joy
• Why pessimism and cynicism are really forms of control
• Practical ways to retrain your mind to savor what’s good—even in difficult seasons
• What Scripture and neuroscience teach us about joy

📕 Learn more from Nicole: Check out her book ⁠What If It’s Wonderful?⁠ And her ⁠Daring Joy⁠ Bible study workbook for practical steps to cultivate joy.

📥 Download Alison’s ⁠free printable⁠ with the five boundary tools when you sign up for her weekly email.

Looking for more? Here are a few favorites:

⁠Episode 168:⁠ How do I trust God after loss?

⁠Episode 74:⁠ How to Find Hope in Hard Times

📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode⁠ here⁠

💬 Got a question? Call 307-429-2525 and leave a message for a future episode.

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Editing by Giulia Hjort

Sound engineering by Kelly Kramarik

Music by Andy Luiten

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© 2025 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage or transcript without permission from the author.

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Transcript:

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‍Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of the Best of You. I'm so glad you're here with me today for this incredible conversation. Today's episode is for you. If you've ever found yourself holding joy at arm's length, maybe you're fearful of trusting that the good in front of you is real, that it's safe to exhale, or that it might actually. Last, maybe you've been through loss, disappointment, or long seasons of waiting and even when something good finally happens, instead of celebrating, you catch yourself bracing for what might go wrong, or maybe you've quietly stopped hoping altogether, Telling yourself it's easier not to expect anything good at all to happen than to risk being let down one more time.

Our guest today knows this feeling well, Nicole Sakowski is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She's a speaker and she's the author of a fantastic book. It's called What If It's Wonderful? Release Your Fears, choose Joy and Find the Courage to Celebrate. 

And she's just released a brand new Bible study. It's called Daring Joy. What six women in the Bible teach us about the power of celebration when it feels risky, complicated, and even impossible. What I love about Nicole's work is that she invites us to see joy, not as a fleeting feeling, but as a courageous counter-cultural practice. one that we can and really must learn how to cultivate no matter our circumstances.

 Nicole's own journey to joy Began and as season marked by change loss and a performance-based identity, she shares candidly about walking through infertility and multiple miscarriages, and the surprising realization that Joy was the most vulnerable emotion she could feel.

Because when you hold something dear, there's always the risk. Of losing it. Instead of avoiding that vulnerability, Nicole began to explore what it looks like to practice joy as a rhythm of life rather than a reaction to circumstances. In today's conversation, we'll talk about the difference between true joy and what you might think of as bright siding or a toxic positivity.

Why joy can sometimes feel harder to embrace than grief or loss, and really practical ways to retrain your mind to notice, savor, and celebrate the good in your everyday life. I loved this conversation because Nicole brings both the depth of her clinical training and the vulnerability of someone who's wrestled through these questions herself.

She gives us permission to honor what's hard and to welcome what's good. Every single day reminding us the joy is not for the lucky few, but it's for all of us in every season. So whether you're in a season of sweetness or a season of sorrow, or like most of us, somewhere in the both, and this conversation will give you practical, spiritually rooted and deeply compassionate tools to start daring Joy today. Please enjoy my conversation with Nicole Zaki.

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INTERVIEW

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Alison Cook: What I love is that your work helps us reimagine joy. Not really as a feeling, A feeling that we have to conjure up, but more as a practice. I am curious how did the younger version of you relate to joy and, and what are the roots of why this became such an important topic for you personally to address?

Nicole Zasowski: I think two seasons. Stand out to me. Uh, one being most of my childhood and and into my early twenties, I had a very performance-based identity. I only felt as good as my last performance. And so therefore I had a very performance-based joy where I only gave myself permission to celebrate on the far side of a dream realized or a goal achieved.

And I think that's how a lot of us view joy in celebration is. We give ourselves permission to practice joy or to celebrate, on the other side of some sort of change. We view it as a reaction versus a rhythm. And that was very much me. for the majority of my life. Um, only gave myself permission to celebrate, you know, even the way God made me or, a gift that I had.

on the far side of. Of some sort of gold star, and. Sadly, that mostly worked for me for most of my life. I would please perfect perform the three Ps, and I mostly was able to find myself in a position where for maybe a brief second,

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: I felt that I had permission to celebrate. And of course we know that's a mirage.

As soon as you get there, the finish line has moved. Somewhere else, you know, down the line. And so you're perpetually chasing When will I be good enough? Or you're always afraid of falling off that pedestal, even if you do have that moment of, okay, I, I, I did it. and then was a good thing, but a hard thing.

At the same time, I confronted a season. That could largely be characterized by change in loss. it included a, a sudden move across the country, that was good for me, but very much unwanted. I had to leave all those comforts that I had built my identity on, and so without, couldn't take 'em with me.

Nobody knew who I was, where we were going. Nobody really was impressed by my accomplishments. And this was devastating to a girl who had a performance based identity. But as, as you know, that's a gift because when you're left empty handed, you're able to hold something that's more. Sure.

Alison Cook: Hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: after we got here, my husband and I walked through.

A long season of infertility that included five miscarriages in about as many years, which was really painful for so many reasons. But one of the first times I was like, I can't outwork this. I can't be good enough. I can't, um, outwork the pain to make it different. And, that was heartbreaking on its own level, but also, again, there was an invitation in that to put my identity in who I was as a child of God, as Nicole versus what Nicole can do.

Um, and when I did start to encounter some breakthrough and good news in our story, I realized I was hesitant to embrace it

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: and. This was so interesting to me because here is the thing I've longed for, the thing I've prayed for, and I am holding it in arm's length. I'm not celebrating it, and I was so grieved when I realized that, yeah, I've experienced a lot of tangible loss in my story, but a lot of the loss I've experienced has been my refusal to embrace the very good things that God had

Alison Cook: Hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: And so that was the part two to your question of, you know, the season that sort of shaped my relationship with joy is I, I was holding it at arm's length and I learned that joy is actually the most vulnerable feeling we feel because when you hold something, it's automatically accompanied by the possibility of loss.

And if you've been through. Trauma or pain of any kind, you know, it can feel safer not to hold that joy at all than to hold something that might break. And again, I was so grieved by that, what I was missing out on, I thought, I don't wanna miss out on my beautiful God-given life 'cause I'm so busy preparing for the worst.

And so. I did a deep dive into the neuroscience research. I did a deep dive into scripture to understand how can joy be a practice? My feelings are not there,

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: how can I engage with this? What am I empowered to do to engage with this so that I can have a healthier relationship with joy? And then out of that came my book.

What If It's Wonderful and my Bible study daring Joy.

Alison Cook: So, okay. Gosh, there's so much in there I wanna unpack. So you had this self-awareness at a particular moment to recognize, okay, here's a moment where I should be feeling joy.

And I am not.

Nicole Zasowski: right.

Alison Cook: What was it that you were experiencing?

Nicole Zasowski: I think mostly fear, yes. Here's the thing I've prayed for, but it doesn't feel like a good idea to celebrate it. so I'm going to protect myself with pessimism and cynicism, which are just fancy forms of control, right? I'm trying to become invulnerable to that hope to possibility, and so that's what I was employing.

Alison Cook: It's so interesting to me from a parts framework through the lens of parts, that it makes sense that a fearful part of you that had been very hurt.

Nicole Zasowski: Yep.

Alison Cook: Was there was very present in your sort of inner family and that to protect that part of you, an inner cynic or inner guarded part of you surfaced and again that you could become aware of that, you know, I just get this sense listening to you that you're sort of became aware of that dissonance.

 here I am. Not experiencing the relief or the joy or whatever. You know, joy is such a interesting emotion. What all goes into joy? and that you were honest enough to say, I see this.

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: I can't conjure up that feeling. I can't make myself have it. So I have to go on a path of how do I. Learn. How do I teach myself how to celebrate, how to experience joy? Am I, am I hearing you right? I mean, you definitely, you're in the right profession as a therapist, right? Where you're aware. But I love that. That's what's so beautiful. That's what you offer us, is you were so aware of the dissonance, but even in that awareness, you didn't immediately have the, oh, there, now I can It.

It's like, no, I have to go on a journey.

Nicole Zasowski: Yes, yes. And I've learned both as a person and a therapist, I think with a lot of the virtues we wanna incorporate in our life, whether it's. Joy or courage or that we have to often act on what we know to be true or practice that virtue before the feelings follow and in the. Brain research I've done and in my work with clients and in my own personal work, that's certainly been true for me that I'm gonna have to, to practice this before

Alison Cook: Hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: I necessarily feel it.

And it might be quite a while of practicing it, before those feelings follow. So that's absolutely the journey I, I took.

Alison Cook: Okay. I wanna get to the practice 'cause I think that it, I think it's so interesting and counterintuitive and in many ways counter-cultural to think about practicing joy. I think it's [00:09:00] so important and, just so grateful that you're talking about it before we get there. When you set out on this path, this recognition of, I don't feel. The way that I feel like I should feel about this. did you talk about that with people and when you reached out for insight or wisdom, or even through your research

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: did you find helpful and also what, what did you kind of bump up against that wasn't helpful out there on this quest?

Nicole Zasowski: I think one of the most unhelpful messages we can hear. Related to this quest, but also with. Joy is and, and it's a similar but distinctly different message than the one that I would hope to share with people and that I would hope readers would get from my work. Is this sort of, um. Just put a silver lining on the cloud [00:10:00] or, fake it till you make it.

Alison Cook: I've, yep.

Nicole Zasowski: you know, God doesn't ask us to call a painful thing. Good. Um, good things grow from painful things? Of course. Um, but he doesn't ask us to call that. hardship or that hurt or that loss itself a good thing. And I think if we're not careful, we can easily kind of that toxic positivity, kind of easily tie a bow on something where there's no bow to be tied or look for a way to draw a silver lining on that cloud.

And that's not what this is.

 I think one of the hardest but most helpful messages. was understanding that joy is a practice, that it is a spiritual discipline.

at first I was annoyed when I started to see that message in scripture and the neuroscience research because I thought, gosh, there's so many things in our personal growth in our faith walk that require.

Discipline and I thought, gosh, can't joy just come easily? Can't that be the one thing that just flows naturally out of us? And then I realized. How empowering that is, because if joy were simply a feeling that came from good circumstances or came from the winds in our life, then it would be an experience for the lucky few who happen

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: good experiences sometimes or good circumstances.

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: And to know that this is something that is actually available to us, to all of us in all seasons was not only empowering, like, oh, I can actually take a step toward this and, and do something. But also really comforting that this is, and I could cry talking about this. 'cause for a long time I felt like.

I was somebody with my nose pressed against the glass looking in on something I couldn't have. And I think a lot of us, when we think about joy and think about how, can feel that when or if this relationship gets solved or if I experience. A health breakthrough or whatever that is.

We all have that thing, right? then I can experience joy. I think it, a lot of us feel disqualified from it. And so my hope is that my work could be an encouragement that this is something that, yes, it might look different in different seasons, the feelings will go up and down, but this is something you're absolutely empowered to practice regardless of what your life might look like right now.

Alison Cook: Yeah. I love that. I, I love that your work. Comes directly out of your own

life experience. you said something that I think is really, profound in many ways joy can feel more vulnerable

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: than grief.

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: Why is that 

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah, I, I was, um, I was really surprised when I thought about it that way and Brene Brown talks about the idea of foreboding joy. Um. That joy is often accompanied by this sense of, but what if it all goes away? and I think a couple things. The act of holding something right, when we embrace something, when we celebrate something that's vulnerable because we're holding something that can be taken

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: particularly if our joy is.

In something that comes and goes, and we can talk about that in a bit. But, that can be a vulnerable experience to actually take a chance to celebrate something. You hear a lot about people saying, well. Waiting for the other shoe to drop or, you know, we operate with these really funny, ideas about how life works.

 I think probably to try and get a sense of control on something that is uncertain, but just the idea. I've heard people say, yeah, things have. Really great for a long time. I'm, I'm really enjoying my life and I'm in a sweet season of peace and connection with other people, you know, so I'm probably due, you know, we, we have this idea that we can only embrace that for so long.

And just a side note on that, the research is really clear that while we might wanna protect ourselves with pessimism and cynicism. Even if, and this is a big if 'cause usually it doesn't happen, but even if that outcome that we fear should come to pass or the other shoe does drop,

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: having prepared for that mentally and emotionally doesn't take any of the sting out of that outcome should that happen.

So all we're doing is robbing ourselves of that delight and connection in the meantime.

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AD BREAK I

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Alison Cook: That's so good as you're saying that it reminds me of. The importance and the, and the sounds cliche, which is so hard about this conversation, right? It's so nuanced. of living in the moment

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: thinking about the manna in the wilderness.

Like, what is mine today? Is mine today.

Nicole Zasowski: today.

Alison Cook: And the joy that I have today is the joy that I have today. I'm not worrying about tomorrow. So there's a lot about it in the Bible. We see it in psychology being in the present moment. What's happening right now. We don't do ourselves any favors, with the sort of doom stressing, the doom worrying.

And I love that you underscored that. But again, that is a practice. and I hear you saying that a part of you. had to retrain,

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah.

Alison Cook: reorient to a different practice, which required you to be vulnerable to a new emotion.

Nicole Zasowski: mm.

Alison Cook: I guess how you say it is, we don't drift toward. Joy. And so in your own experience, you had to begin hunting for it, looking for it. So talk to us a little bit about, as you're realizing, oh, I need to incorporate this practice into my life, what were some of the first steps you started taking and how did that go and how did that feel for you initially?

Nicole Zasowski: Clunky. I think when you're learning anything for the first time in your carving those new neuro pathways in your brain, it's like blazing a trail in the forest versus taking the well beaten path. the brain prefers what it knows, not necessarily what is good or true. and I say that not

For someone to feel overwhelmed by change, but to validate that change is hard, carving those neural pathways is uncomfortable for your brain, even if it's good and ultimately healthier thing. So it definitely felt clunky, but rewarding nonetheless. I think when I started to understand what some of those practices were.

 and we can talk about what those were, um, and, and how to practice them at home if you're listening. but yeah, it felt clunky. It, it felt, unfamiliar and, and while I was helping that truth become more familiar to my brain.

Alison Cook: Yeah. 

Nicole Zasowski: but again, hopeful and I, I really believed. in what I was being led to do.

Alison Cook: and also as both yourself and as a therapist, it would strike me that you have to have some buy-in to recognize this is a path I need. To work on. Right. And I think that could be confusing.

And even as a clinician, right, we have some people who come to see us that are so good at bright siding things,

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah,

Alison Cook: which isn't what you're talking about. That's not joy. That there is actually a need to help them really walk through and feel what's hard. Almost a practice of grieving in a way.

And there's something about, you knew, I get this sense. You were really aware. I see something happening here that I need to shift inside of me to be able to balance out. Yes. there's a part of me, you know, if I think about that part's language that is maybe, always to some degree going to be a little bit. Uncertain.

Nicole Zasowski: Yep.

Alison Cook: Um, maybe a little bit like I'm not that one that just dives right into the excitement and the exuberance of emotion, right? and also I need to cultivate this other part of me that can feel and lean into the joy and lean into the, this is good, and I'm gonna let myself right.

So that, that takes a lot of. Self-awareness and self knowledge, and I'm thinking ofof the listener. How might they know that there's an invitation also to Joy and that that also might be a practice not to deny what's been hard not to bypass. What's been hard, and I think, again, I'm being long-winded here, but I think especially in faith contexts

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah,

Alison Cook: where joy can become a way to spiritually bypass, I should feel this way.

I shouldn't feel sad, I shouldn't feel angry. I shouldn't feel, ungrateful for a lot of folks. I could imagine there's a sort of. well, which one is it? and I, I'm trying to figure out how to learn to feel angry. I'm trying to figure out how to learn to feel sad, again, I'm, sort of saying a lot of things and not really getting to a question, but I, I hear very clearly in what you're saying, Nicole, that we wanna make sure there is also a seat for joy at the table.

Joy also needs to be there.

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: And so I guess. how do we know when there's that invitation? How do we know? Maybe there's an out of balance, and maybe the best metaphor I can think of is it's almost the opposite of what happened in the first Inside Out movie.

Nicole Zasowski: Sure.

Alison Cook: Right? And the first Inside Out movie, joy was the only character she was dominating.

But for you. And I think for a lot of people, Joy's, the one that's marginalized, Joy's the one that's being held back.

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: So both, as a clinician and in your own personal life, how do we know when that invitation might be there?

Nicole Zasowski: That's such a good question. I think, you know, similar, ideas, different language. I, I work with a model called Restoration Therapy

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: The first thing we do and, and something that I'm very aware of as somebody who practices it in my own life, is to understand what that message of pain is.

So what are the feelings you tend to feel when you're in a painful situation? And these are. Shaped by our stories. So you and I could go through the exact same thing tomorrow and I might feel inadequate or worthless and, and you might feel alone or unsafe, just as an example.

Alison Cook: Interesting.

Nicole Zasowski: But understanding what those messages are, I'm very clear on what my three to four feelings I tend to feel 90% of the time I'm in a painful situation.

 and so understanding like for me, what those wounds are, I've already shared, you know, a part of my story would be definitely not good enough. That's a big one for me. shaped by my. Miscarriage and infertility season, might also be vulnerable. And so then it's identifying what are the ways I tend to protect myself and react to that pain that are totally understandable and probably served me at one point in my life as a child, uh, are no longer serving me now, are no longer

Alison Cook: Mm

Nicole Zasowski: At least to let run amuck.

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: So, and the four broad categories of those behaviors are shaming yourself, blaming other people, controlling and escaping. So. And this is what you were talking about earlier, is sometimes we've gotta know what names to give our pain. We've gotta name the cost.

We've gotta grieve what that feeling is, identify what we might be tempted to do. I am a world class controller. and that can look a lot of different ways, not necessarily micromanaging someone else, but for me, as I've already shared. Becoming invulnerable to that pain. So by, okay, if I just expect the worst, then I won't have to feel, as devastated, or I won't feel the gravity of that vulnerability if, if it doesn't turn out how I'm hoping and praying it will.

And so really being able to name that is where you can see some invitation of. What does it look like? And again, that's, that's a well carved neural pathway in my brain.

 but what is the truth that? I want to claim, and I use that word claim because again, this doesn't mean the feeling isn't real and that I don't have good reasons for feeling that way.

But as an empowered adult, that's the feeling that's being thrown down. What am I gonna choose to pick up and continue to tell myself,

Alison Cook: Right.

Nicole Zasowski: what am I gonna choose to speak to that very real feeling?

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: And how can I practice acting on what I know to be true instead of reacting to how I feel, which for me is engaging in a lot of these joy practices.

Alison Cook: Interesting.

Nicole Zasowski: that's counter to how I tend to react and protect myself.

Alison Cook: Yeah, it makes sense what you're saying because it's not so much so, so I think for me not in my, how I am with other people, not with how I am as a clinician, but with myself, when I feel one of those vulnerable, painful emotions, I tend to bright side, I tend to minimize, I tend to, it'll be fine.

It, that's not joy.

Nicole Zasowski: No,

Alison Cook: But it can appear that way. It can appear like a positive, optimistic. Person and this conversation is so interesting to me because I, I had this conversation with my co-author, Kimberly Miller, when we were writing Boundaries for Your Soul.

 at the time I was practicing letting myself feel sadness and so I would listen to sad music,

Nicole Zasowski: Uhhuh, uh.

Alison Cook: I would listen to that Coldplay song Fix You.

Nicole Zasowski: Yes, good choice,

Alison Cook: And both Kim and then my husband too, like, they're like, why are you listening to that? Like, they didn't need the help.

Nicole Zasowski: right.

Alison Cook: they didn't need the help to feel that and. I'm being a little convoluted here, but, but I think you're saying something interesting. the impetus is still whether you're going to pessimism or whether you're kind of going to a, like I have a bright sighting part of myself. Either way, we're not dealing with the actual vulnerable. Feeling, which is [00:26:00] something hard happened, something painful.

We're not actually telling ourselves the truth, whether we're piling on and saying Nothing good is ever gonna happen for me, or expect no good in the future, or whether we're saying it'll be fine. Don't worry about it. Just shrug it off. we're not giving ourselves the actual healing and truth.

That true joy. Or any of the fruit of the spirit, but in this case, joy. So tell me, in light of that kind of isolating what we're talking about, something that is healing, something that is. for example, again, using, if FS vernacular playfulness is a quality of the spirit, let itself playfulness, which I, I think is akin to joy is.

The ability when something really hard is happening and, and you have some friends that are really good at this. I have a couple of friends who are really good at this, and they just make you laugh. But it's not because they're bypassing the [00:27:00] pain, it's because you just see the absurdity in it and you're just like, tears are streaming down your face, and you're kind, laugh, crying.

That to me is joy. It's not bypassing. And so I'm curious in your vernacular, 'cause I, I love. This vernacular that you're bringing through restoration therapy, what is joy like? What is it actually, it's not bright siding. but I hear you saying it's also very much not kind of the opposite of that, which is sort of the, the pessimistic or the cynical component.

 how do you know it when you see it? How do you know it, when you feel it? What's your experience of that?

Nicole Zasowski: Well, I do have a definition that I personally hold, but I think to speak specifically to what you are saying is I'm often asked what's the difference between celebration and escape? Because I think we do tend to look at joy as falsely as you're pointing out bright sighting or,

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: and, and so you're exactly right.

Bright siding or getting pessimistic or, or doing those, any of those four things, blame, shame, control, escape. Are different forms of reacting to our pain. So they, they might have different consequences, but they're equally unhelpful and unhealthy and, and don't actually help us deal with that pain. And so I would ask.

You know, somebody that maybe is having a hard time discerning the difference is what are you looking for? Any sort of escape behavior, including bright siding, is looking to take us, 

 out. So I, there's nothing I can do to solve this pain or deal with this pain, so I'm just gonna check out and hope it goes away while I'm gone.

 Versus joy and celebration keeps us connected. It's an avenue of connection with our emotion and with other people and with God.

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: So, you know, the example you gave of your friends just having the gift of seeing the absurdity in something. They're not disconnecting from their pain and, you know, numbing it.

 they're relationally connecting in it. So one diagnostic question is. Is this disconnecting or is it connecting?

Alison Cook: great.

 Yes.

Nicole Zasowski: this connecting me to God to other people in my

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: To my emotional experience? Or is it something that's just hitting the pause button

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: on my emotional processing where I'm in a, you know, it's like when you take a nap and it feels so good to fall asleep.

'cause you don't have to think about that thing that's burdening you and then you wake up and it takes about five seconds for you to be like, oh, there. Yep, there it is. that's escape versus what's helping me emotionally process this, what's helping me connect to other people.

Alison Cook: Yeah, that's good.

Nicole Zasowski: Um, so yes, and the very simple from a spiritual perspective, definition of joy that I've landed on is recalling God's steadfast character and remembering his faithfulness in our story.

That's. Joy that's available to all of us in all seasons. So at, at the very root, from a spiritual perspective. that's the definition I personally hold onto is, is something that's available to me always.

Alison Cook: I love this 

 you're speaking about it with such depth. There's such a deep integrated understanding there. I love this quote. You say, Nicole, And I think this kind of gets at what you're trying to say here. I love celebrating with God instead of seeing celebration as merely the result of the struggles God has carried me through.

Nicole Zasowski: Mm-hmm.

Alison Cook: And I think that there's something to that, the relational

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah.

Alison Cook: connected component. That you're getting at there when you're with God through it all, there's a ness in the joy, not God.

You know? Thanks for rescuing me from this hard thing, as if you weren't in the hard thing with me too, but there's a, oh my gosh, God, look at what's happening. This is good news. We're doing it. You know, there's that ness that's so beautiful.

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Nicole Zasowski: The story that really stood out to me in, in teaching me that particular point was, um, the story of the 10 men with leprosy. And if you're not familiar with that story briefly, you can find it in Luke 17. But, um, men have leprosy and it's their disease that's brought them together because.

That would've been a thing in that culture that defined them more than anything else. you know, more than their personality, they would've been. isolated from their families, isolated from their communities. And so these 10 men have nothing to lose 'cause it's not only a physical disease, it's, it's an emotional and relational cost as well.

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: They see Jesus and they cry out for healing [00:32:00] and he tells them, be on your way to the temple, which Might sound like a strange response, but it's typically the first step one took after being healed. So they had to exercise some faith that they would be healed on their way to the temple, and sure enough, they start to see their own healing in the faces and bodies of their friends and

Alison Cook: Mm.

Nicole Zasowski: only, mean, we can assume that.

Given the massive life change that this would've meant that they all felt grateful,

Alison Cook: Mm-hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: but only one were told and scripture returned to actually thank Jesus. And I looked at this story and trying to understand the difference between gratitude and Thanksgiving. 'cause Thanksgiving is the outward expression of the gratitude that we feel

Alison Cook: Mm.

Nicole Zasowski: our hearts.

And I love Jesus's response. It's a bit facetious when this one man. Comes to say thank you. He says, well, weren't all 10 healed. and I, you know, [00:33:00] it's easy to maybe take this as Jesus's bid for our praise, but that's not the point of this story. The point of this story is that Thanksgiving saying our gratitude out loud either to God in our prayers or to somebody else in your life. Is the avenue we've been given to celebrate the gift with the giver. So if you're a person of faith, Thanksgiving is the avenue we've been given to celebrate with God. Like look, what's happening. I think,

Alison Cook: so cool.

Nicole Zasowski: yes, this is awesome.

Alison Cook: Yeah.

Nicole Zasowski: I think often I was used to clinging to God, you know, overground, that was rough underfoot and then.

Pictured him saying, okay, have fun when you need me again, let me know, when you need me again, when we got to that ground, that was smoother and, and he absolutely wants to engage with us in the light of our joy just as he wants to be present with us in our pain. And Thanksgiving is, is a helpful practice for many reasons, but it is the avenue we've been given to actually celebrate God's good

Alison Cook: I love that there's a, it's a relational,

with God or with other people as well, like celebrating with a friend. I am so excited about. This and we give someone else a gift when, you if I've walked through painful times with a friend and then something really great happens, what a gift that I also get to be part of that experience.

So there you're so wise on that. There's a relational component to it.

Nicole Zasowski: I heard, um, I have no idea what the source was, so my apologies. It was something that just came across my Instagram feed. and because it was related to, to this conversation, I, I paid attention to it, and I am, I'm gonna paraphrase here, but it was a gentleman talking about, you know, how we often talk about that.

Best friend as the one you could call in the middle of the night, you know, with your deepest hurt, your deepest need, you know, when you're in your darkest hour. And he was saying, we don't often talk about that close friend. You know, the, the even more vulnerable close friend that you could call when you have something to celebrate and who you know is not gonna be threatened by that.

 Gonna rejoice with you in that

'cause there's vulnerability in that

Alison Cook: Yes, there sure is.

Nicole Zasowski: calling somebody to say, I need to celebrate this with you. This breakthrough just happened, or, I'm so excited about this and you're the person I thought to call, in addition to celebrating other people, but I thought that was so rich and so good to point out.

Alison Cook: That's so good that that hit. Yeah, that who's that person

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah.

Alison Cook: can call? And really, yeah. That's, that's a great, insight. Nicole, [00:36:00] what, just as we're winding down here, what are some some practices that have helped you personally and that you use with clients?

Stay attuned to joy, so. Whether as a therapist, as a mom, as a person of faith, what are some practices that help you keep this part of you or stay attuned to, to this idea of joy that we're talking about?

Nicole Zasowski: Yeah, and there's tons in the book and the Bible study if you're curious about what do I actually do, but the, there's a few favorites. Thanksgiving would be one, and again, that's the outward expression of the gratitude that we feel in our hearts. So I live in the greater New York City area and. all over the New York City subway system are signs, you know, if you see something, say something, and it has a much more ominous meaning there.

But I've adopted and tweaked that phrase as if I feel something, say something. Okay. And I use that to challenge myself toward this notion of saying what I'm grateful for out loud again, either to God in your prayers or to someone in your life. And it is vulnerable. It's vulnerable to look somebody in the eye and say, Hey, I just want you to know this is the difference that your friendship has made in my life.

Alison Cook: Wow.

Nicole Zasowski: This is how I've grown because of our relationship. We don't talk like that in everyday life. So but it is so powerful. Not only will you increase your joy because the research says. That you will experience much more joy when you actually share your gratitude out loud through Thanksgiving than had you simply written it down and kept it to yourself.

So you'll increase your own joy, but hopefully you'll also. Pass some joy onto the recipient of, of that news. savoring you mentioned being in the present moment. and you and I as, as clinicians both know that, um. When we are anxious, our brain tends to run ahead to the future and think about all the what ifs, or it runs to the past and thinks about all the, what it could have, should have, we should have done differently.

The problem is, we're not empowered in the future or the past to make choices we, we only have today. And so that savoring is a practice that's both helpful for anxiety and for increasing our joy and the way that you practice it. Is you take one snapshot, not a whole dinner party, maybe the look on your friend's face when you gave them a compliment across the table or the sound of another friend's laugh or you know something.

You could take a photograph with your brain and you simply ask your five traditional sense what they're going to remember about that moment. So what do you see? What do you hear? What do you smell? What do you taste and what do you feel? [00:39:00] And what this does is it. Extracts more joy from the life that you're already living.

So again, we tend to think of, ugh, celebration. I've gotta add something to my life, or I've gotta spend a lot of money or a lot of time. And this is about experiencing more joy in your every day. The. Already have, so you don't need to add anything. It's just experiencing more joy in what you've already got.

Alison Cook: hmm.

Nicole Zasowski: Also, we don't drift toward joy. Our, our brains are a little bit like Velcro with negativity and Teflon with joyful things. So this is a way of retraining our brain to not only recognize joy that our brain would typically dismiss, but also helping that joy be stickier. And you're telling your brain, uh, this is something that you would normally think is not important, but we actually need to keep this and we're gonna store it in a part of our brain [00:40:00] where we can actually recall it later as a fond memory, and it's not just discarded as something that we don't need anymore.

So it's part of how we retrain our brain. Toward joy when you practice this daily, you'll start to see more and more opportunities. My, my clients and and readers will often tell me, first it was a challenge to do one thing a day, and then it's like, oh, it's hard to pick one because, because I keep seeing opportunities to savor and extract joy from that moment.

So those are two really powerful practices that. Are easy to incorporate daily that I would encourage listeners to start with.

Alison Cook: I love that because it gets to your point of, regardless of your circumstances, not to quote Paul, but regardless of our circumstances, I mean that is what, that's getting at. Even when things are really hard, I can look for those moments to safer.

Nicole Zasowski: yep. Yeah,

Alison Cook: And I could think of those just when you were talking about it, I could think of those moments where I felt really depressed and my, my husband's face or or something else.

You know, it's just like, oh, and then taking that in there's an attunement that's intentional and I love how you're kind of guiding us through how to practice, noticing it, but then really pulling. All of that into our muscle memory.

Nicole Zasowski: Yes.

Alison Cook: That's beautiful.

 so what would you say to a listener right now who's in a hard season, maybe they're afraid to dream, afraid to celebrate, afraid of what could go wrong. What's one piece of wisdom that you'd summarize to say to them right now?

Nicole Zasowski: Hmm. Well, I'll go based on the research that, with that particular feeling, that foreboding joy, if you're holding something but you're afraid to dream or afraid to hope, Thanksgiving for what is, is what the research says is the only way to tolerate that [00:42:00] vulnerability of joy. So if you're celebrating something but you're afraid.

Um, it'll go away, or maybe there's a possibility of something on the horizon, but you're afraid to hope. Thanksgiving for where you are right now is what the research says is the practice that's gonna serve you best. And then I'll go back to my joy definition that is available to all of us because that's what we see.

Certainly in the Old Testament as we look at the Old Testament, that the Israelites, their celebration wasn't necessarily, I mean, knowing how difficult their story was at many points wasn't necessarily in reaction to, something good happening, but it was remembering God's character and remembering his faithfulness.

And so making celebration a rhythm. Versus a reaction in your family culture and in your own personal life, I think is a really helpful place to start as well.

Alison Cook: I love that you have to turn. Like you said, you're, there's that foreboding fear that's future oriented, we have to turn to today. What am I grateful for right now? What is good right now? What can I celebrate right now? That's, that's awesome. Tell us, Nicole, about how we, listeners can find you and especially about this newest project, daring Joy, which sounds like it's a very practical and biblically based way for folks who are wanting to incorporate more of what you've been talking about into their lives.

Nicole Zasowski: Sure. So my website is a great place to connect with me, Nicole Zaki, Z-A-S-O-W-S-K i.com. you can buy my book, what If It's Wonderful or Daring Joy. Uh, certainly on Amazon or everywhere you like to buy books. there's information on that on my website as well. and during Joy, I, I felt like when I finished, what if it's wonderful.

They're not companion projects, so you don't need to read them in order or anything like that. Um, content. Is largely different, but I felt like I wasn't done with the topic I just had this sense that we were gonna keep going in this conversation. and. That's where Daring Joy was born. It, it goes through six, the stories of six different women in the Bible.

And these women either hold up the mirror to what holds us back from joy or provide a beautiful example of what it actually looks like to practice joy when life doesn't necessarily serve that up. And.

Alison Cook: Wow.

Nicole Zasowski: I learned so much as I studied their stories. It's amazing how age old these struggles that we've been talking about in this conversation are.

 and because you see it right from the beginning with Eve and the, the women are Eve, Sarah, Miriam. Mary, mother of Jesus, Elizabeth and Mary Magdalene, if you're interested in that. And it's a more of an interactive workbook style resource, whereas what if it's wonderful is a traditional trade book. But it does have discussion questions in the back if you looking for a book club discussion guide or anything like

Alison Cook: Uh, I think it's great. I highly recommend, and again, as therapists, right, we are so often helping people work through their pain and their trauma, and it is so amazing to me and beautiful that as a therapist, you're bringing in the fullness. Of what healing is, because this is a huge component of it, no matter how hard things are.

This is a component of wholeness, and I love that you're bringing it in with that nuance of understanding. You're not trying to bypass, but I just highly recommend to anyone listening to the therapist listening. and all of you listening, these are. Great resources, uh, so that we don't lose sight of the goodness and the beauty and the joy and I, I just am so grateful for what you're doing.

Nicole Zasowski: Thank you. You know that I am love your work and and so appreciate you as well. So this was a fun and lovely conversation for me to have as well.

Alison Cook: Awesome. Thank you, Nicole.