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We don't want to gossip, but most of us do it. What if gossip actually plays a deeper role in our lives and relationships?

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So often in life we bump into "grey areas," areas that can stir up dissonance inside of us. We hold certain beliefs or values, yet we find ourselves acting in ways that are contrary to those values.

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In this series, we're exploring some of these areas that can bring up dissonance inside. Our focus today is gossip. I explore the problems with gossip, as well as some of the surprising research on how it can be constructive. By examining both the positive and negative aspects of gossip, you'll feel empowered to name, frame, and brave a healthier understanding of gossip in your life and relationships.

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Here's what we cover:

1. Why gossip is a gray area (3:09)
2. What the Bible says about gossip (6:42)
3. What psychology research says about gossip (12:46)
4. 6 motivations behind gossip (13:43)
5. Constructive vs. destructive forms of gossip (21:40)
6. How to Name, Frame, and Brave gossip in your own life (29:17)

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‍Thanks to our sponsors:

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Resources:

• I Shouldn’t Feel This Way by Dr. Alison Cook
• ‍Proverbs 11:13
• ‍Proverbs 16:28
• ‍Proverbs 26:20
• ‍James 1:26
• ‍Ephesians 4:29
• ‍Anne of Green Gables books

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‍Related Episodes:

• Episode 102: I Shouldn’t Feel Conflicted About God—How to Name, Frame, and Brave Complicated Emotions About Faith & God
• Episode 96: Signs of Emotional Immaturity & How to Bring Emotional Health Into Your Relationships
• Episode 89: When A Relationship Has to Change—How to Tolerate Discomfort, Face an Attachment Void, & Resource Yourself

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Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

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Transcript:

Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I am so glad you're here. I'm so glad you keep coming back each week to join me for these conversations. I am thrilled about this brand new series that is based on the framework I laid out in my brand new book, I Shouldn’t Feel This Way. 

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Many of you have it in your hands already. Many of you have already read it. In this series, I'm going to apply the framework, the three step process in I Shouldn't Feel This Way, to complicated real life challenges that I don't address in the book.

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So we're going to cover a wide range of topics in this series, topics that are sometimes the source of debate or differing opinions, and they might lead to some internal dissonance. Dissonance is this feeling of discord inside of you when you have two competing priorities that are at odds with each other, or maybe you're behaving in a way outwardly that doesn't match up to a belief you hold inwardly.

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As I teach you in I Shouldn’t Feel This Way, that experience of dissonance is a gift. It's a cue to get curious. I wonder what that's about. For example, I noticed that I'm really tempted to tell a little white lie in this situation, even though I don't want to be someone who lies. When you notice that experience of dissonance inside of you, it's a cue to do some naming work, some framing work, so that you can brave a healthier way through it.

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My goal is not to give you formulaic or pat answers or quick fixes, but instead to empower you to name, frame, and brave a wise discerning path through some of these areas in your own life.

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Today's topic is the topic of gossip. Now listen, most of us tend to think of gossip as negative or bad. We don't want to be a gossip. We don't want to gossip with our friends. The Bible warns us against gossip. I personally have seen the damaging effects of gossip in so many ways. We're going to talk about some of that in today's episode. 

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At the same time, what's really interesting about gossip is number one, its prevalence. Social psychology research has shown that over two thirds of our conversations as adults contain some form of gossip. So whatever we think about it, most of us are doing it. Then number two, social psychology research has also unearthed some of the positive aspects of gossip that may explain a little bit why some of us are doing it.

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In today's episode, I want to untangle some of those knots through naming, framing, and braving this gray area of gossip. Why do we do it? What does the Bible say about it? What's negative about it? What is the positive component, if there is one, that we actually want to preserve? And how can we preserve that component in a healthy way? 

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There's so much in this episode for every single one of us. I had so much fun learning about gossip, both from the Bible and from social psychology research. I think there's some really interesting questions we can ask ourselves about the role of gossip in our lives to be a healthier human, a healthier friend, a healthier family member, and to help us in partnership with God's spirit to bring more goodness, more kindness, more compassion, and more wisdom into our relationships and into this world, which is in such desperate need for that. We're bringing it into the world through doing this work of naming, framing, and braving healthier paths together.

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At its simplest form, gossip is the exchange of information about the personality traits, the character, or the behaviors of someone who is not present in the conversation. So when we use the phrase “talking behind somebody's back”, that's a very clear picture of what gossip is. 

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It's simply talking about another person when they're not present. They're not there to engage in the conversation with you. Now, when I give you that very simple definition of gossip, talking about someone else when they're not present, I bet every single one of you listening, whether you're driving or at home or at work is saying, yeah, I've done that.

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I've done that. I've talked about someone with another person when that third person wasn't present. It's so common. I think that two-thirds estimate is probably fairly low. We do this all the time. Parents talk about their children when their children aren't present. Siblings talk about their parents when their parents aren't present. Friends talk about another friend when their friend isn't present. Friends talk about their family members with their friends when that family member isn't present. 

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We can get very literal about that description and see it everywhere. You begin to see why I'm labeling this as a gray area, because immediately we begin to recognize in ourselves those instances when we are talking about another person in the absence of that person. We're trying to do that in a constructive way.

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I want to mention what the Bible has to say about gossip, because it's an important backdrop for so many of us as we try to develop our moral compass around the topic. The Bible addresses the topic of gossip in numerous locations. We see it in the Proverbs, for example, Proverbs 11:13, “a gossip betrays a confidence, but a trustworthy person keeps a secret”. So we get at this component of how important it is to be people who are trustworthy, who do not betray the secrets that our loved ones share with us.

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We see another example in Proverbs 16:28, “a perverse person stirs up conflict and a gossip separates close friends”. So again, we get this idea that someone who is gossiping is trying to separate people, is trying to stir up conflict and chaos.

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On the other hand, we get another picture of what happens when we're not gossiping in Proverbs 26:20– “Without wood, a fire goes out; without gossip, a quarrel dies down”. So there's this image of gossip being the kindling that fuels and stokes the fire of quarrels and conflict that keeps it going, as opposed to being the opposite, which is someone who works to reduce the flames of chaos, reduce the flames of conflict. 

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We want to remove the wood from that fire. But, you can already tell as I'm saying this, that it gets tricky. Because I can already feel the questions forming in my own mind. Okay. Let's say I'm in a conflict with Bob over there. I don't want to stoke the fires of that conflict. That's not my goal. I do want to reach a resolution of that conflict. 

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But on the other hand, if I simply refuse to talk about what I'm feeling about that person, I'm also at risk of never solving the problem–of stuffing or sidelining or numbing those emotions that I'm feeling because I'm struggling. I'm struggling with this person. Yes, I do not want to stoke the fires of that conflict, but I also, in order to solve or resolve or arrive at a better solution, I do need to figure out and get to the root of the struggle that I'm having. 

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Again, this is why there's a gray area. When is it appropriate to go outside of this relationship that I have with this person or to divulge the secret information that I'm carrying about this person that is really troubling me? I don't want to hurt them. I don't want to do something damaging but I need help. I need wisdom. I need to be discerning. I need advice. 

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How do I go about that constructively? So we already see some of that inner tension building up as we read through these scriptures. Then we go to James 1:26 where we have this really almost harsh admonition about our tongues and the way that the words that come out of our mouths can be used to hurt others. They're really powerful. James 1:26 says, “those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless”. 

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James says the religion that God our father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. Now, I love this passage because it's really saying, here's what we don't want to be doing. Here's what we do want to be doing.

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We want to be people who are not slandering others and using our tongue to harm others and cause destruction and cause chaos and increase conflict. We want to be people of peace. We want to be people who are lifting up the poor, lifting up those who are hurting, caring for the most vulnerable among us, including the vulnerable parts of ourselves.

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So again, here's that inner tension. We want to be people who are using our words, using our mouths in conversations with our friends, in our families, with other people for good, to encourage, to empower, to improve the lives of others. Also, what do we do when we're struggling, when we're hurting, when someone has hurt us, when we're in a situation that's complicated and we need help untangling the knots of that situation?

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Again, to underscore the James passage, we see in Ephesians 4:29, another admonition that is such a beautiful aspirational admonition. “Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen”.

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Okay. So there's some very clear guidelines there of the kind of people we want to be. We want to be people who are really careful about what we talk about and what the impact is of those words that we use. So this is the backdrop that I'm going to drop into this conversation about gossip.

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We want to be people who are using our words to uplift, to empower, to create more goodness, to create more wholeness in ourselves and in the lives of other people. That's the backdrop. We do not want to be people who are stoking the flames of conflict, of hatred, of malice, of controversy, of slander. We do not want to be people who are sowing the seeds of division and destruction through our words. 

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This is a really important value for so many of us. It's why I love this podcast every week, because I know those of you who are listening, who are people wanting to live as fruit-bearing, goodness-bearing people in this world, we're trying to do that. Also, we find ourselves in complicated situations where we need to confer with other people in our lives about how to best navigate challenging relational situations.

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I want to turn now to some of the research in social psychology that has exposed the more constructive side to gossip. I think it's important in the interest of framing this conversation about gossip because most people do it. Why are we doing it? What is the motivation behind it? 

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According to research and social psychology, there are about six distinct motives that underlie gossip behavior. I want to walk through these with you. As you listen to them, I want you to think about them, honestly, inside your own soul. Which ones resonate with you? Yeah, I think that's why I do it. Or I think that might be underneath it for me. 

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Notice that again, without shame, as part of naming and framing your own relationship with gossip. What is the underlying motivation for you? So number one, the first motivation that was found to be the most common is information exchange. 

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We gossip about other people to validate our own perceptions about other people, and to gather information. So at its most basic form, gossip can be a form of information gathering. For example, I am starting to make a new friend, I'm going to make up names here, so these are not real people, but let's say for example, I'm starting to make friends with a woman named Joan, who I don't know very well.

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I don't know if I can trust her. I'm not sure how intimate to get with her. so I go to another friend who knows her very well. Maybe we're part of the same community, maybe we're part of the same neighborhood, maybe we're part of the same church group. I say, hey, what do you think about Joan? Do you trust her? Do you think she's a good person? What's your impression of her? 

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Suddenly I'm in a conversation with a mutual friend about Joan, and Joan is not present. My primary motivation is to gather information. I'm trying to understand my own perceptions and I'm trying to get more information. So this is one motivation for why we might talk about somebody else when they're not present. 

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It might happen in a family. Maybe you and your siblings are talking about a parent or another sibling. What's going on with dad this week? He's been so grouchy. Has he been mad at you too? You're trying to gather information. Is it me? Is he on my case? Is he in a bad mood? Is something else going on? What's happening? So you're trying to gather information. That's the number one most common motivation that we gossip about other people when they're not there.

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Number two is social bonding. It's a way to strengthen bonds within a group. If I share information with you about someone else, I might feel like I'm providing added value. I know things that you don't know. I have information that you might want. It's a way to establish my importance in a group.

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So for example, I might say, did you hear the news about so and so? Can you believe that this person did this thing? I'm bonding with you by letting you know, I know information that you might want to know. If I give you this information, I will be valuable.

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A third motivation is emotional catharsis. We need a place to vent sometimes. For example, if you're struggling, maybe you care for somebody in your family or maybe you have a friend or a family member that you really love and that's really important to you, and sometimes there are really hard things about loving this person.

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Most of us have been in a situation like that. Every once in a while you need to vent. You need to tell someone you trust about what's hard about being in a relationship with this third person when they're not there. Now, there's a really important distinction between venting and dumping.

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Venting is when you're sharing frustrations with someone you trust with the goal of reducing your own stress. It's like one of those Instant Pot pressure cookers. Sometimes the pressure is building and building inside of you and you need to release the valve and let some of that steam off so that you can re-enter the relationship from a healthier place.

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This is a really fine line. Talk about nuanced, because venting, if not done appropriately and in a healthy context, can actually become toxic and it can keep us from working through conflicts that actually need us to work through them directly with the other person.

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On the other hand, there are situations where sometimes we need to vent. For example, when you're parenting, or in marriage, or sometimes taking care of an elderly parent, it can be helpful to release some of that excess frustration to someone else so that again, you can be empowered to go back into that relationship from a healthier place.

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So again, when you're venting, you're really intentional about what you share. You're not trying to throw that person under the bus. You're primarily venting about your own experience, your own emotions about that person, and you're very mindful that's what you're doing.

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It's really wise to ask for permission. Hey, I am dealing with some frustration. This is really hard. Can I share with you some of what I'm dealing with in the context of this other relationship? You're asking for permission from the person. You've got an express purpose and there's a boundary.

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I'm going to do this for this amount of time, and then my goal is to be able to reenter that relationship and work through it directly. So this isn't going to be chronic. This isn't going to be habitual. I'm not going to constantly complain about this person without boundaries around that. That's venting. 

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Dumping is unloading emotional baggage on another person without any regard for the other person or for the person about whom you're dumping. You're maybe complaining incessantly without really ever doing the work to fix it or figure out how to navigate a better solution. 

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You're maybe oversharing about intimate personal information that doesn't need to be shared to effectively communicate about the frustration you're experiencing. You're probably not even aware of it when you're dumping. To be honest, it's become a habit or a chronic pattern of behavior where instead of dealing with a behavior directly in an effective way, you pull in an outside person. This is what often gets into triangulation. You triangulate a third person and complain to them constantly, while never really addressing it in your own relationship directly.

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So again, there's a big difference between venting and dumping, but when we're venting strategically, consciously, with boundaries around it, that can be a form of gossip that allows us some emotional relief.

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Number four, another motivation, and we're progressively moving toward the ones that are more damaging, this one is simply for entertainment and distraction. Gossip can sometimes serve as a pastime, a form of entertainment, where we discuss the lives of others as a form of amusement and a way to pass the time.

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I remember the Anne of Green Gables books. I loved those. There were some characters in the book that you got the sense that it was their hobby. That was their pastime. They sat on the front porch and gossiped about people who walked by.

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So this can be semi-benign, where we all know people who seem to know everything about everybody. That's what they do as a pastime. Maybe they're not even malicious. We see a lot of this in celebrity gossip. People want to know what's going on with what celebrity, who's dating who.

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So there's an entertainment value to it. It might be a hobby, and while this may not dramatically have a negative impact on the person about whom we're gossiping, at the same time, I would think about it like any passive pastime, such as television or scrolling social media or reading, gossip magazines–what function is that serving in your life?

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Is that time being taken away from other things? I put this category as a numbing category. When you think about numbing, we're trying to numb or distract ourselves and sometimes disappearing into the lives of others through gossip, celebrity gossip, or even gossiping about friends can be a distraction. It can take us out of our own problems. 

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The question I would have for you is, to what extent is that dominating, to quote Mary Oliver, your “one wild and precious life”? Do you really want to fritter a lot of time away down the gossip black hole? You might want to name for yourself, wow, I do spend a lot of time gossiping about friends. I wonder what that's about. 

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What am I distracting myself from? Is there another part of me that needs my attention? Maybe I'm more focused on other people's lives because I don't know how to engage with my own thoughts, goals, dreams, and hopes. Is that distracting me from real needs in my own life that need my attention? 

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Again, so as with any habit or recreational activity, it may not be super harmful in small doses, and it may not be harming other people, but is it really helping you or is it keeping you from other more important things that you could be doing with that time? 

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Then we move into number five, where it gets a little bit more overtly insidious, and this is the dynamic of influence and power. Engaging in gossip can be a way to manipulate. Maybe if you have information about someone else, you share that information and contaminate their own standing within a group.

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You might use that information to gain power for yourself. That gets pretty toxic where someone's reputation can be ruined. We can harm somebody else's life by sharing information about their lives that is not our information to share. Another form of that is sharing information about someone else in order to make ourselves feel better. 

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Maybe we share something bad that someone else did because it makes us feel better about the bad things we've done. At least it wasn't as bad as that person. This gets a little bit into social comparison. It can provide a means for us to puff ourselves up in comparison to someone else. At least I'm not like that person, at least I'm not as bad as they are. 

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Did you hear how they yelled at their kids? Did you hear about how terrible their marriage is? Did you hear about how they got fired from that job? With the subtle implication and the internal motivation that at least I'm doing better than that person is. Gossip functions as a way to puff myself up and make myself feel better at the expense of someone else. 

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Lastly, number six, it can really get negative and toxic if we are specifically using gossip to harm another person. At this point, yes, it's to puff myself up, but really I want to harm that other person. I want to take that other person down. My motivation is really to harm that other person. 

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Now, research shows this is the least common type of motivation. Most often when we're gossiping, it's not to try to directly harm somebody, but still it's a spectrum. We don't want to go anywhere near this side of the spectrum. This is what slander is, when you start to twist the truth about someone, maybe take a story that has a grain of truth and magnify it or distort it and spread it around about someone behind their back as a way to malign their reputation.

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Sometimes the word we use for this is backbiting or stabbing somebody in the back. We go behind their backs and say something mean about them with this specific purpose of undermining them, trying to get their job, trying to get their friends, maybe trying to erode attention that this other person is getting that we're jealous of.

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This is where we might start to spread rumors about somebody or really malign somebody's character in a really malicious way. Again, this is an extreme form of gossip, but it does happen. If you've had this happen to you, it is incredibly painful. It's incredibly damaging. It's incredibly toxic, and it's really destructive and something we don't want to be anywhere near in our lives. Nor do we want to be engaging with folks who are using the strategy to harm somebody else.

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So again, these are six motivations for gossip. So it's really important to search your own soul. Ask yourself, why do I do this? What do I get from it? What purpose is it serving? Where is there some constructive and beneficial value? Where is this getting toxic? 

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Not only maybe for the other person, but also for me, because if it's not good for someone else, it's also not good for my own soul. So really to do that personal soul searching, number one, but then number two, to think about the effect of that on the other person. There's a reason why we want to be really careful about talking about someone when they're not present. 

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Imagine a world with me, for a moment, where your friend group, your church group, your neighborhood, your community, where everybody really had everybody else's best interests at heart, genuinely. The bottom line is, I know that if people are talking about me, it is out of love. It is out of a place of love. They love me. They're for me and any conversation that has had when I'm not there is in the service of that love.

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To close today, I want to talk about how to name, frame, and brave gossip in your own life. So the very first step is always to name it without shame. I noticed that I'm so tempted to gossip about that other person. Or I notice that in my friend group or in my small group or even in my family, we tend to talk a lot about other people.

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I've noticed it. It makes me a little uncomfortable. I'm not sure what to do about it. I try to pretend like it's okay, but really it's bothering me. All right. So the very first step is to name it without shame. Notice: what do I feel like when it's happening around me? What do I feel like when I'm doing it? 

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Pay attention to those cues. What are the situations that trigger it? When am I most inclined to indulge in it? Is it after being on social media? Is it within a certain friend group? Again, naming without shame. We're not jumping to try to fix something. We're trying to notice and name without shame. 

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Number two, frame it. Think about those different motivations that we talked about and reflect on it in yourself honestly, in partnership with God's spirit. You might ask yourself, do I do it because I'm trying to get information? I'm trying to assess somebody's character. I'm trying to understand how to interpret this other person's behavior. That's valuable to me. I want to be able to exchange information. I want to do that in a healthy way, or do I do it for social bonding?

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Do I do it because it makes me feel closer to certain people? it's not all bad, but I want to watch it to make sure that it doesn't get unhealthy, or am I doing it as a way of venting? I have a couple of really hard relationships that are hard for me to navigate. Yes, I noticed that I tend to vent about these relationships, and if that's the case, how often am I doing it? 

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Am I aware that I'm doing it? Is it a habit that isn't really yielding fruit or am I trying to rely on other people constructively to help me carry a heavy burden? If I'm doing that, is the other person okay with that? Maybe I need to check in with that other person?

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Moving into those latter three, am I doing it as a form of entertainment and distraction? It's easier, frankly, to have conversations about other people than it is to get real about my own life, or to ask real questions about my friends or my family members. If that's the case, then maybe there's going to be a different braving step to take to pivot away from gossip as a distraction or even as a form of idle entertainment and move toward other shared activities that actually help me develop the intimacy and the sense of connection that I crave. 

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Number five, am I doing it to gain power or control or to manipulate other people? Or am I in groups where I notice that my friends or the other people around me trade in gossip to exert their power, to try to show their superiority, to try to maybe malign people behind their backs?

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I noticed that I don't like how those friends or how those work colleagues talk about other people behind their back, but I don't know what to do about it.  I haven't known how to get myself out of those situations. 

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Again, name and frame without shame. You're getting honest with yourself about how gossip shows up in your life. Then lastly, am I around people who are maligning other people in an effort to harm them? I don't like it and it makes me uncomfortable, but I don't know what to do about it. 

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Or am I ever tempted to do that? Someone's really hurt me and I don't like this person and I'm going to start spreading stories about them. If that's your motivation and you can name that honestly, good for you. That's the first step toward change. 

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I'm going to be honest with you. When I name and frame gossip in my own life, it almost always falls into those first three categories. I'm trying to bond with someone, I need to vent, or I'm genuinely trying to get information so that I can be more discerning. It's been so freeing to me to recognize if I can put it in one of those three buckets, I can figure out how to have conversations with the third party in a constructive way, and then I've worked through some of that dissonance in my own life.

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Here are some braving steps you can take based on how you framed the role of gossip in your life and in your friendship groups.

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Number one, according to the BRAVE acronym that I set out in chapter four of I Shouldn't Feel This Way, boundaries. What are your boundaries around gossip? Here are some examples of realistic boundaries you might consider setting.

Think about the boundaries within your family. What norms have you cultivated in your immediate nuclear family? For example, maybe in your family there is a norm and you even state it transparently in a family meeting. Listen, Sometimes your dad and I talk about you kids when you're not around because we're trying to understand you better. When we talk about you and what's going on in your life and with school and we don't keep secrets from each other, it helps us be better parents for you. It's for your good and for the good of the family. Likewise, sometimes you and your siblings might talk about us. We might do things that annoy you and when you're together, you might talk about us.

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What we would ask for you to do as siblings to support each other is, if you're sharing things with each other, to encourage each other, to come to us directly, to help us have more transparent conversation because we have blind spots. Sometimes we don't get it right. Sometimes when you go to your siblings and you guys talk about what happened, they might be able to help you come to us more transparently so that we can approach something we're not doing right. You begin to have conversations about what it looks like to rely on other people to help improve the relational conflict that we're actually having with another family member. 

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You might have norms within a friend group. We've got an upcoming interview coming up where a group of women who are in a small group talk about the norms they set with each other about talking about other members of the small group behind their backs. It has to do with consent and norms, and it's for the constructive benefit of the other group members. 

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So for example, if we're talking about another friend, because we're trying to understand that friend, we're trying to figure out how to help that friend, or I've got a blind spot about that friend. The goal of going to that third party who's not in the immediate situation is, I need to understand this better. So would you help me so that I can grow wiser? What do you think is going on? 

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It's from a place of love. We're trying to arrive together deeper layers of truth. If that friend were to catch you in the act of having that conversation, would she be surprised? Would she be hurt? Or would she say, I get it. I know that you're trying to love me better.

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You also want to set boundaries with your own self. Sometimes our motivations slip and we're like, I really want to pray for that person, but really, I want to tell you everything that happened. We know our motivations. We have to check that. If you need to vent, if you need to gather information about somebody you're trying to understand, is this someone I can trust? Do you see this the way I'm seeing it?

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Be clear to name that when you go to the third party. Listen, I'd like to have a conversation with you about this. Number one, do I have your consent? Are you on board with having this conversation with me? Because I don't want to pull you into it if you don't want to be a part of it. 

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Number two, state your goal. I'm looking for wisdom. I'm looking for action steps I can take and I need some help either through venting to you some of the emotions that I'm feeling so that I can get greater clarity, or through getting some information or some perspective from you to help me approach the situation better.

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You're always bringing the accountability back to yourself. Would you be willing to help me? I will be the one who will then take action based on this conversation. This conversation will be over after that. Meaning there's a beginning and an ending to it. This is not idle gossip or idle chatter that we'll keep coming back to. So you put boundaries around that conversation.

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The other thing you can do when it comes to braving steps around reducing gossip is to expand your range and learn about how to have direct conversations with people. Sometimes I think we don't know how to go to somebody and say, listen, I'm struggling in this relationship right now. So the easier thing to do is to talk about it behind their back with someone else. You might want to work on: how do I communicate more directly with people? 

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You might work on a norm of transparent communication, especially in families, especially in friend groups. Some of us who are more inclined to be people pleasers, we tend to tailor how we show up based on who's in the room. But the more you work on being your true self, the more you work on being authentic, the more you work on being transparent and you expand that range of authenticity, the more you can show up the same, no matter who's in the room.

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Number three, you might need to brave assertiveness skills to speak up when folks are gossiping in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable. Now, listen, sometimes folks are toxic. As we know from past podcast episodes, if someone is toxic, maybe the bravest, most assertive thing you can do is simply excuse yourself and get up and leave. Excuse yourself from the conversation.

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Please excuse me. That's a full sentence. Please excuse me. I have to go now. You don't have to tell them why, especially if you sense that there's a toxic situation that could have some backlash for you. You can simply excuse yourself. That's quite assertive. Sometimes, you might need to speak up. 

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Here's some examples of things you could say to a friend or a family member. They're really practical. You might say, listen, I want to be here for you, but I'm not comfortable hearing all of the details about that other person. Could you share with me broadly what you're struggling with so I understand enough to help you, but I don't feel like I'm getting information from you that's not mine to have? 

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Another norm you can set either for yourself or with someone else is say, Can you share with me the situation you're struggling with, without telling me who the person is? That's a great thing to challenge yourself on. I want to share with you something that happened to me without identifying the specific person involved, or I want to share with you some emotions I'm struggling with in a relationship without identifying the specific person involved, because then I'm getting the help I need without gossiping about someone else. 

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So those are examples of assertiveness skills that you might need to learn. If you're in friend groups where there's a lot of gossiping, again, sometimes it's excusing yourself, letting your behavior do the work for you. Sometimes it's speaking up and saying, hey, could we work on some different norms here? 

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If you're someone who resorts to gossip or resorts to reading about or talking about other people as a pastime, or it's become a part of the way that you bond with your friend group or within your family, what are some other things you could do?

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What are some other hobbies you could pick up? Are there games you could play? Could you go on a hike? Are there fun activities that would bring you joy and meaning and purpose together, not talking about other people? Sometimes I think it's a habit we get into and we need to gently remind ourselves, Oh, let's brave something more life-giving that we can do together.

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Finally, sometimes you have to change your environment. You might have to shift away from people who cannot stop bringing up other people when those people aren't around for no good reason. You might have to shift away from people who try to pull information out of you. You might have to shift away from family gatherings. 

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Maybe you go for an abbreviated amount of time. Maybe you excuse yourself early because it's so focused on criticizing or demeaning or talking about other people. Maybe it's a church group or a small group. Now, listen, here's the thing about shifting away from a certain environment.

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Is it possible that they'll potentially talk behind your back once you take that brave step to leave? Absolutely. They probably already are. People who are in the habit of constantly talking about other people aren't going to make an exception for you.

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But again, you're moving forward on your path toward wholeness. You're moving forward to different kinds of people where you're going to have shared activities, where you're going to have shared vitality, where you're going to only talk about other people insofar as it's ethical, edifying, and helping you be a better, healthier, more whole person. So who cares if there's some idle chatter behind your back? You've left that behind. You're on your path to a better, braver future.

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Do you ever feel distant from God? Do you struggle with conflicting emotions or unanswered questions that make it hard to feel God's presence in your life?

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Today's episode brings the 🔥🔥🔥. I'm passionate about naming the false guilt and counterfeit messages that keep us from a vibrant relationship with God.

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So often we try to shove complicated feelings aside or manipulate ourselves into feeling what we think we “should” feel in our faith. It doesn't work. The good news is that as with any relationship, when you name and frame what you're feeling honestly, you invest in a deeper, more authentic relationship with God. Here’s what we cover…

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Here’s what we cover:

1. The problem with spiritual bypassing

2. 6 counterfeit messages we internalize about God

3. 5 framing questions to help you transform those messages

4. Specific examples of braving steps you can take in your spiritual life.

5. My personal experience with spiritual dissonance

Today's episode is an excerpt from Chapter 11 of I Shouldn't Feel This Way, available everywhere books are sold.

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Resources:

• I Shouldn’t Feel This Way by Dr. Alison Cook
• ‍Matthew 26:36-46
• Research on religion as a buffer for stressful experiences
• James 1:2
• ‍Matthew 5
• ‍Romans 5:3-5
• ‍The Best of You by Dr. Alison Cook
• ‍Philippians 2:12
• ‍The Soul of Desire by Curt Thompson

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‍Related Episode:

• ‍Bonus Episode: Aundi Kolber & Dr. Alison on Writing & Launching Books

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‍Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Head over to WildHealth.com/BESTOFYOU and use code BESTOFYOU at checkout for 20% off!
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• Go to thrivemarket.com/bestofyou for 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift!

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

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Transcript

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Hey everyone. And welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. What a week this has been. I Shouldn’t Feel This Way is out in the world. It's in your hands. I'm seeing so many of you post about it and review it on Amazon and write to me about it and DM me about it. And I'm so thrilled that you've got in your hands the very best I have to give, this framework, this naming. framing and braving framework that I believe will help you tackle the challenges that you face.

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I'm so thrilled it's finally out. ​Talk about emotions. I've had so many emotions all week. It's a lot of work to write a book, but it's even harder in many ways to launch a book into the world, especially in this age where everything is done full-throttle, fast speed, you know, “more, more, more, more” type of energy.

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You can listen to the bonus episode I dropped on Tuesday with my friend, Aundi Kolber. We talk a little bit about the process of writing and the process of publishing in this day and age. I really enjoyed that conversation with her. It's just two friends really talking about writing, and it was a really fun way for me to celebrate launch day on Tuesday.

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This week also marks the second anniversary of The Best of You Podcast. So there's been a lot of emotions this week, a lot of feelings around this work that I've been doing these last several years of writing books and creating content and sharing resources with so many of you. I am so grateful. So grateful for you. 

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I am so grateful that you want to engage in this work of healing. It makes me feel less alone in the world to know that so many of you are interested not only in the work of healing mentally and emotionally, but also in the work of bringing your faith into that. Not only of inviting God into the work of healing, but also healing at times our own relationship with God.

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And so in today's episode, I wanted to specifically apply the framework that I lay out in I Shouldn’t Feel This Way. It's a three step framework that applies to any challenge that you face, anything that kicks up a whole lot of emotions in you.

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This “Name, Frame, Brave” framework can help you find your way through that. And I apply that framework to a lot of different topics in the book. I apply it to the thinking traps that keep us stuck. We need to name, frame, and brave the negative thinking and the thinking traps in our own minds.

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I apply it to the numbing behaviors that so many of us struggle with. We have to name, frame, and brave those numbing behaviors in order to come out the other side in a healthier place. I apply it to feelings of comparison, to feelings of “less than”. Those are feelings that we also need to name, frame, and brave.

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I apply the framework to toxicity in relationships. How do we name toxicity, frame it, and then brave a way out of toxic dynamics into a healthier place in our relationships. I apply it to communication and conflict in our healthy relationships.

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We have to name hard emotions, even in our healthiest relationships, so that we can frame them and then brave a better path. And then in the very last chapter of the book, I apply the framework to the feelings that we have about God. It's one of the chapters that is closest to my heart.

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And so in today's episode, I wanted to share an excerpt from this chapter with you. It's one of the things you guys ask me about the most. What do I do with the painful emotions I feel about God? Whether I feel distant from God, or maybe I feel disappointed with God, or maybe I feel mad at God, or maybe I'm even questioning if he's even there, or if he is there, if he even cares.

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Our relationship with God is like any relationship that we have. We love God with all our being. And also sometimes we feel so frustrated that God isn't showing up in the ways we wish he would. Sometimes we feel disappointed in our lives and gosh, wouldn't it have been nice if God had just made that a little bit easier. 

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Sometimes we feel distant from God. We want to have faith in God and yet sometimes our faith wavers. What is this really all about? These are such normal emotions that we all experience, and it doesn't help to guilt trip ourselves for having these emotions. It doesn't help to gaslight ourselves about these emotions. It doesn't help to try to numb and avoid these emotions.

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What does help, is to name these emotions with God. And so today I'm going to share with you some of this chapter and some bonus content that didn't make it into the chapter, so that together, we can name, frame, and brave a more wholehearted relationship with God.

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The first problem I want to name when it comes to our conflicting feelings about God is a problem called spiritual bypassing. I write about this a lot on social media. Whenever I do, it gets a lot of traction. I think a lot of us have had this done to us and a lot of us do this to ourselves. Here's what I write in I Shouldn’t Feel This Way:

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If you grew up in a faith community, you may have been taught to spiritually bypass the complex feelings you experience. Spiritual bypassing is essentially a thinking trap. It ignores the richness and complexity of your God given design. Maybe you feel confused, scared, or uncertain. You don't know what to think or do. 

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Instead of carefully working through the different layers of a complicated problem, you try to force fit a spiritual pseudo-solution. For example, you might try to tell yourself things like the following: I should just pray more. Just forgive and forget. That's the best way to approach this situation. Just let go and let God. 

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Sometimes you spiritually bypass yourself. Oftentimes other people encourage you to spiritually bypass. They assume that all your problems can be solved with a spiritual solution. A friend might encourage you to jump to forgiveness when what's really needed is to grieve a betrayal and establish healthy boundaries. Or a faith community might encourage you to spiritualize a problem that is not primarily spiritual. 

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For example, a spiritual leader might encourage you to pray harder for God to take away your depression or medical condition, instead of helping you find a professional who is trained to help you. Or they might encourage you to love the person harming you instead of helping you to protect yourself.

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Spiritual bypassing keeps you from adequately addressing the problem you are facing. It also creates dissonance inside, which is internal discomfort. There's a whole chapter on dissonance, in I Shouldn’t Feel This Way. You want to trust in God, but the problem is only getting worse.

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So you start to blame yourself. If only my faith were stronger. As a result of that inner tension, you resort to any of the following unhealthy coping strategies: 

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Self gaslighting. You tell yourself you don't feel what you really feel. 

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Numbing. You suppress your emotions instead of working to cope with them.

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Magical thinking. You disregard reality and deny yourself the opportunity to discover practical solutions. You miss out on opportunities to develop skills, gain knowledge, or receive care and comfort from others. 

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Here's what is true. God created you with an ensemble of interconnected parts, including thoughts, emotions, and a nervous system, each one designed to work harmoniously like an orchestra. Your job, in partnership with God's Spirit, is to be the conductor of that orchestra, working patiently with all the pieces, including your thoughts and even your painful emotions and the cues your nervous system is sending you and bring that noise out of dissonance and into a cohesive melody.

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It starts with naming the different truth pieces of what you feel. The truth is, you don't have to bypass your mixed up feelings. Instead, you can name them, frame them, and then brave a deeper understanding of yourself and your relationship with God. God doesn't ask you to bypass the conflicting emotions that you face. Not even the conflicting emotions you feel about him.

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So often, those feelings are an opportunity to brave even deeper growth and healing. It's normal to experience confusion, doubt, anger, fear, or disappointment when it comes to God. You could even argue that Jesus experienced complicated feelings about God as he anguished in the Garden of Gethsemane. 

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You can almost sense the desperation in his prayer. Really, God? Really, I have to go through this? A relationship with God is like any relationship. It involves complicated feelings. I want to pray, but I'm so angry. I want to believe God is good, but I see so much suffering. I want to trust God with this decision, but I'm not certain. You might also experience complicated feelings about yourself in relationship to God.

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I can't turn to God right now, I'm too far gone. I've done such terrible things. How could God love me? I should trust God, but frankly, I've done such terrible things. How could God love me? And this is my favorite: I should trust God, but frankly, I can't. I'd rather trust myself today. 

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Walking by faith is a delicate tightrope. It's the ultimate both-and. It involves trusting God and honoring the way you really feel. You can have faith and feel scared, confused, or uncertain. You can trust God and trust yourself, experience anger, disappointment, or doubt. You can follow Jesus and be uncertain about how to apply his teachings to the real problems in your life. 

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I would argue that true faith is the work of constantly reconciling what's impossibly hard with a hope in what's unfathomably good and beautiful. If you overweight either one, you miss out on the fullness of an active dynamic relationship with God.  If you are someone who chafes against naive spiritual platitudes, or who wrestles with complicated feelings about God or faith, you're in good company. This wrestling is the work of faith. 

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The good news is that as with any relationship, when you name your complicated feelings, you invest in a deeper, more authentic bond instead of bypassing them. We often try to shove these feelings aside and manipulate ourselves into feeling what we should feel, or we process these feelings with friends or loved ones without ever processing them with God.

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But what if spiritual maturity is bringing all of what you feel, including your anger, doubt, and confusion into your relationship with God? No matter where you are, whether you're journaling, waiting in the car pickup lane, or grocery shopping, simply start to name the different truth pieces you feel, and then address each one to God.

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It’s a practice I like to call comma God. “I'm worried” becomes “I'm worried, God. I don't understand what's happening”. “I need help” becomes, “I need help, God. I don't know what to do”. “I'm sad”, becomes, “I'm sad, God. I feel so alone”. “I don't want to pray”, becomes, “I don't want to pray, God. I'm kind of mad at you right now”. And just like that, you're engaged in a prayer.

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You become aware of yourself in the present moment and you become aware of God. Research shows that when you dwell on God and not only on yourself, you reduce stress and anxiety and increase your ability to tolerate painful experiences. To be clear, what you believe about this God with whom you're connecting matters.

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Is this a God who loves you? Is this a God who's for you? Is this a God who takes you by the hand and walks with you through the trials that you face? It's wise to reconsider the messages you've internalized about God. Imagine if a child were to come running to you, angry or scared. Would you rebuke her or offer her a platitude?

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Of course not. You would pull her close to you and give her the gift of your presence. “It's hard to feel angry. I'm here with you. I want to understand”. You'd give her compassion, tenderness, a sense that she's not alone. 

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Similarly, when we're mad, scared, uncertain, or heartbroken, we rarely need a reprimand or a pat answer from someone else or from God. We need presence. We need attunement. That doesn't mean we don't also want answers. We do, but just like a hurting child, we first always need connection. That's how God made us. 

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And if we know how to soothe a child who is hurting, how much more does the one who made us know how to attune to us in our sadness, hurt, or despair? Like a tender, loving parent, God meets us with compassionate kindness and presence in all of our complexity. God doesn't always fix things right away, but he does not ask us to bypass what we feel. He does not gaslight us. He does not ask us to pretend when we're hurting. Even when we're hurting about God, God gives us the gift of honoring the truth of what we feel.

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Sometimes I think about that perfect person, that perfect relationship, where we just need to vent all of the pain, all of the emotion, all that we're feeling, and we just need them to hold space for us. Even though some of the things we feel aren't fair, even though some of the things we feel aren't really their fault, even though we know they're doing their best, we just need to let it out.

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That's the kind of presence God gives us.

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The paradox is that when you name what's hard, what's true in this very moment, you open yourself up to God. You stop trying to analyze your motives or earn God's approval. You stop trying to fix yourself or figure out God. You move into the present moment. You attune to what you really feel and God's Spirit attunes right there with you.

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You're never closer to God than when you're naming what's hard. You're telling the truth and the truth is God's sweet spot. 

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When you name what's hard, you tend to bump into old messages. You've outgrown messages that keep you from growing deeper in genuine faith. You might be surprised at some of the messages you've picked up that interfere with an honest, authentic relationship with God. 

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Counterfeits–simplistic versions of otherwise beautifully rich spiritual concepts–such as what it means to love others, show faithfulness, experience joy, confess sin, or forgive are rampant. These false versions of these messages linger in your mind, often outside your conscious awareness, creating dissonance inside. 

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Naming those messages helps you tame them. You can then determine where you picked them up and why you believe them so that you can develop a truer viewpoint instead. Here are some of the most common counterfeit messages I observe in my work with clients and some ways to reframe them. 

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Number one, I should feel happy in my suffering. Passages like James 1:2 can be taken out of context and misinterpreted as suggesting that you should always feel happy. This counterfeit message encourages a false version of joy. The truth is that joy is a complicated emotion, intimately linked with experiences of sadness, grief and pain. 

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When I posted a video on Instagram on Tuesday about the book launch day, there was a lot of joy in that message, but that joy included some of the other emotions like sadness, like fear. My ability to experience joy, the fruit of joy, included my ability to honor some of those other feelings simultaneously.

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Number two, if I had more faith, I wouldn't be struggling. Some religious circles equate faith in God with health, financial success, or happiness. This counterfeit message pressures you to project an image of being “blessed” or successful as evidence of your faith. 

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This is me interjecting: I really dislike those memes when I see them on social media that somehow a vision of outward success, material success, a perfect family, a perfect life, is an indicator of being blessed. That flies in the face of Matthew 5 and what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount. The truth is that a strong faith is no guarantee against suffering. Instead, God promises that as you persevere through suffering, you'll develop character and hope. That's Romans 5:3-5.

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Number three, I should just die to myself–which is the impetus for my second book, The Best of You. Jesus teaching about self-denial can be misconstrued to suggest that you should never consider your own needs. 

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This is a misapplication contrary to how Jesus lived his own life. This counterfeit message promotes a false version of sacrifice, encouraging you to disregard toxicity or boundary violations, instead of working in partnership with God's spirit to protect and care for yourself. The truth is that sacrifice is a delicate balance of selflessness and self-respect.

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Number four, I should always feel content. While contentment is a virtue, it's a cultivated skill, not a quick fix. This counterfeit message promotes a false version of peace encouraging you to bypass negative feelings. The truth is that acknowledging frustrations or areas of discontent in your life can help you grow and change aspects of your life, yielding more contentment.

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Number five, I should forgive and forget. Forgiveness is a central tenet of Jesus’ teaching, and it's an incredibly nuanced concept. The counterfeit version of forgiveness encourages you to minimize or overlook legitimate wrongs. That's not what Jesus taught. The truth is that acknowledging hurt and injustice is critical to ensuring that resentment and bitterness don't fester in your soul.

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And that's the primary goal of forgiveness–to release the resentment and bitterness. It's a process, a practice that does not happen in an instant. It takes time and effort to engage in the work of forgiveness.

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And number six, I'm a terrible sinner. This term, sin, reflects a complicated theological belief about the imperfect nature of humans and the need for redemption through Christ. The counterfeit version of confessing sin induces shame, false guilt, or control.

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You try to shame yourself, beat yourself up, or others try to control you by exploiting the imperfect nature of your humanity. That's not what God intends. On the other hand, when you name the imperfections you see in yourself in a loving environment without shame, you find freedom, acceptance, and belonging, the opposite of shame.

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You don't have to dupe yourself into these counterfeit versions of faith, hope, love, forgiveness, peace, or joy. Our God is so much deeper and richer and more intricate than the simplistic formulas we're so often given. Be honest about what you feel and create a place in between to reflect on the different truth pieces in partnership with God's spirit.

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Here are some framing questions you can ask yourself if you're struggling with feeling conflicted about God. Facts. What counterfeit messages have I believed? Roots. Where did I pick up those messages? When did I start to believe them? Audit. Are these messages true? Do they yield spiritual fruit? Are they helping me discover more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, or self control toward the parts of myself that are struggling, not only toward other people? 

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Mental messages. What messages do I tell myself about how God views me? What messages do I tell myself about how I'm feeling toward God? And finally, expansion. What do different passages from the Bible say about these messages I'm telling myself? What would someone who loves me and is for me say about these messages I'm telling myself? 

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Those framing questions are based on the FRAME Acronym. You'll find that full acronym in chapter three of I Shouldn't Feel This Way. I want to close today by talking through some holistic spiritual practices. This falls under the category of the step of braving. Sometimes we have to brave a different path. Or maybe brave a different way of doing things even while we stay on the same path we're on.

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The antidote to spiritual bypassing is to brave a holistic relationship with God. One that includes all of your being, including the complexity of your thoughts, your nervous system, and your emotions. You're fighting for a more vital relationship with God. And in doing so, you're working out your salvation, which can also be translated as healing. This is from Philippians 2:12. You're working out your healing all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

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One practice I've enjoyed, I call whole body prayer. Many of us have this idea that praying means sitting quietly with your heads bowed and eyes closed. We measure the success of our prayers by the intensity of emotion or the minutes on the clock. But what if you incorporated your whole being into your prayer, including your thoughts, feelings, and even your body?

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For example, in chapter five, you learned how to mind your mind throughout your day to pay attention to your thoughts. As you mind your mind while cooking or gardening or walking or driving to work, consider inviting God into the process of attuning to your thoughts. I'm worried about my child, my health, and my bills. Help me to think clearly about what's really going on, God. Be with me as I get to the root of what's happening.

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Or I can't shake this idea that someone is mad at me. I hate the way that feels. Help me to consider the facts of the situation. God, help me discern if I did something wrong or if this is false guilt. Or I'm wrestling with anger. I'm feeling angry. I'm frustrated that this person is getting away with harmful behaviors. God, I'm not willing to be harmed anymore. Lead my thoughts as I consider how to best protect myself.

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In chapter six, you identified different activities to help you process negative emotions instead of numbing. You might incorporate conversations with God into the activities you identified. For example, when you become aware of painful emotions, consider walking outside, eyes wide open, and naming what you notice as an act of praise. 

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I see that mountain, God, it reminds me of your strength. That tree is beautiful, God, it reminds me that all seasons pass. I'm grateful for the sun that always rises, God, it reminds me of your constancy. When you can't find words to pray or to connect you to God, give God thanks for the tangible reminders that you see in nature all around you.

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Finally, in chapter seven, you learned how to ground yourself when your nervous system is activated, when you're experiencing an intense emotional reaction in your body. Remember that when a child is scared or upset, you'd first gently soothe her by pulling her close and taking deep breaths. As she soothes, she's more able to communicate with you about what happened. 

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Similarly, when you're activated, it can be hard to pray in the way most of us have been taught. It's helpful to calm your nervous system as you articulate what you feel or what you need. Consider the difference between the following prayers. 

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God, I'm desperate. Please make this go away. I can't take this anymore. As you pray, your heart is racing. Your body is tense. You're begging God to intervene in your situation. Now listen, there's nothing wrong with this type of prayer, but imagine a different way of turning to God in prayer. 

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God, I'm struggling. Take a deep breath. I know you're with me. Another deep breath. I'm scared. Take another deep breath. I need you. 

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God designed your body to release endorphins and good chemicals. When you breathe, sing, experience nature or move, incorporating any of these activities as you name what's hard with God will help you soothe your nervous system in partnership with the way God designed you.

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And finally, you might need to brave new forms of healing communities. The first time I experienced the pain and dissonance that comes as a result of church-sanctioned spiritual bypassing was while I was working at a Christian summer camp as a college student. During an early Bible study, a leader of the camp taught us that if we didn't hear the voice of Jesus whispering in our ear telling us what to do each day, there was something wrong with our faith.

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I didn't hear the voice of Jesus that summer, At least not in the way that the Bible teacher thought that I should, as proof of my faith. Instead, I watched as my peers sought to showcase the superiority of their spirituality through quoting Bible passages and public displays of morality. All the while, not one word was said about the cliques, overt racism, and cruel jokes about the very people we were there to serve that permeated staff culture.

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That's not the Jesus that I serve. The dissonance inside me that summer was almost intolerable. I felt heartsick and confused. Not about Jesus–I knew that the hypocrisy I witnessed was not the fruit of listening to his voice. Still, I was confused about how people who claim to follow Jesus could be so horrible to other people. 

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Somehow, even at that young age, I knew it was okay to feel what I felt. I named it and framed it constantly with God. How could people who claim to love you, God, and hear your voice, behave in these ways to other people? I didn't force myself to pretend it was okay. Over time, this relentless naming and framing paid off. I began to see how I could brave a healing path. I couldn't change that experience, but I could do my part to help others who are hurt by toxic spiritual cultures.

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Over time, my family and I also braved a whole different kind of church community, one where the focus was on caring for those who were hurting the most, those suffering tremendous pain, addictions, homelessness, and debilitating mental illnesses. In that community, we felt connected and accepted in ways we'd never felt before.

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This is me interjecting here, but the words that we use constantly to describe that community was holy ground. It's where we sensed God's holy presence the most. When people were being the most honest and real about their brokenness.

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One of the practices we came to cherish was a time each Sunday during the service to give testimony. I was always amazed by the honest naming that ensued. 

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I'm Bob, and I didn't use last night, even though I really wanted to. 

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We love you, Bob. 

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I'm Peggy. I found a wallet, and I really wanted to steal the money in it, but I didn't.

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We love you, Peggy.

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I'm Stan. I'm depressed, but I got out of bed this morning, praise be to God. 

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We love you, Stan. 

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I began to brave a new vision of what it means to be in community. What if we learned to name together, honestly? What if we lovingly attuned to each other's struggles instead of trying to fix them? What if we could chase away old messages of shame and counterfeit virtues? 

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I'm Matt and my heart is broken today. 

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We love you, Matt. We're glad you're here. 

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I'm Anne and I cannot stop people-pleasing. 

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Welcome, Anne. We receive you. 

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I'm Joni and I'm so mad at my friend. 

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It's good to see you, Joni.

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I'm Chad and I relapsed last night. 

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Welcome, Chad. Thanks for coming. 

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I'm Sue and I yelled at my kids this morning. 

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We did too. We're so glad you're here with us today. 

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As we name together, without shame, we become a truer, more beautiful oasis and embodied experience of Christ for each other. Psychiatrist and fellow therapist, Curt Thompson, wrote in his beautiful book, The Soul of Desire, about small groups of people he leads called confessional communities.

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In these communities, individuals gather to name their longings, their heartbreaks, and their traumas. What Curt said is that all are “acts of prayer, creating spaces for connection and transformation…it is in communities like these that we encounter the possibility of being deeply known and where we practice for heaven. It is in a body of like minded people who are working hard to tell their stories as truly as they can, that Jesus shows up right in the middle of their narratives and utters in the voices of others to hear in the room, peace be with you”. 

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And I would add, “you're not alone”. I experienced what Curt described, not only within my church community, but also with my sister and two childhood friends. We gather regularly with the purpose to name, frame, and brave what's hard in our lives as one person shares the truth pieces of a fragmented story.

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The others listen attentively not to solve the problem, but to bear witness to all the pieces. As a result of being attuned to in this way, we each catch a glimpse of a truer, more beautiful picture of our lives. As a result of being seen and known by a loving community, we grow stronger and steadier, sure of ourselves, our convictions, and our purpose. We develop a deeper sense of integrity within ourselves, with others, and with the one who made us.

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If you've been taught that working out your faith should be simple, unthinking, or one size fits all, I would argue that you've been taught wrong. The Bible is not a simple book. Following Jesus is not always straightforward. Learning how to forgive, walk by faith, love others, and live joyfully takes skill. It takes perseverance. 

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It requires you to attend to various truth pieces in partnership with God's Spirit. Name, frame, and brave your way through complexity in your emotions. Shallow, simplistic formulas won't cut it. Not in this world. 

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The good news is that like your maker, you are beautifully vast and rich and wonderfully deep and intricate. You were made with the capacity to attune to your inner being, to shape the content and direction of your own thoughts and emotions, and even the responses of your nervous system. Learning to access and harness the power of your God given design to shape your life is one of the most joyful and lasting sources of satisfaction.

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As a tree grows tall and strong over time, its root system spreads out, providing more stability to the tree and tapping into a broader range of nutrients. The complexity of the root system contributes to the overall strength and resilience of the tree.

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The same is true with your spiritual growth. When you do the work to navigate uncertainty, process disappointments, and grieve painful experiences, you become stronger, wiser, and more resilient in your life. Even as you expand to tap into a broader range of spiritual practices, you don't have to choose between honoring yourself and your experience and honoring the God who made you. 

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That choice is a false dichotomy. Instead, you can connect and attune to yourself and with God. You can name what's hard and claim your hope. You can honor all the things that you feel and honor the faith you have in God.

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Here's the paradox of hope: to experience hope, you have to face what's hard. You have to practice the awkward motions of naming what's wrong, examining the truth pieces and reflecting on what's not working. Sometimes you tumble to the ground. You ask for help. You get back up. 

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Hope emerges as you find your way through the suffering. It's a paradox. There's no comfort if you don't face the truth of exactly where you are. Counterfeit hope bypasses reality. It ignores landmines and obstacles. It pretends everything is just fine. Even though you're floundering, it's like offering someone a shiny red plastic apple when they're starved for real nourishment. 

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True hope, on the other hand, enters into your reality. It helps you name what's hard. It helps you unearth deeper understanding. And as a result, it catalyzes you into brave action. Shame is eradicated. You experience the thrill of working your way through a tangled-up mess and discovering a beautiful clearing on the other side. 

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Best of all, you start to find hope within the journey. You start to activate glimmers of hope every step along the way. You activate hope when you catch yourself in a thinking trap and redirect your thoughts with patient tender care. You activate hope when you gently nourish yourself through pain instead of numbing. You activate hope when you patiently soothe your nervous system. You activate hope when you name toxicity for what it is and set a boundary with it.

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You no longer fear suffering or hardship because you've learned how to brave it to create harmony out of dissonance, calm out of chaos, peace out of pieces. The entire process, naming, framing, and braving, becomes a virtuous cycle of hope. You're taking charge of this beautiful life you've been given.

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You're shattering the divide between where you are now and where you want to go. You're shattering the divide between what's hard and the goodness you long to see. You're shattering the divide between the pain of this earth and the glorious hope of heaven.

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Happy Book Launch Day!

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Today I Shouldn't Feel This Way is out in the world AND it's the two-year anniversary of The Best of You podcast. To celebrate, I asked my friend, fellow therapist, and author, Aundi Kolber to join me for a special bonus episode! Join us as we share insights into why we started writing, what we keep private vs. what we share publicly, and how to navigate the publishing industry.

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Additional Resources:

• Connect with Aundi Kolber at www.aundikolber.com or on Instagram or Twitter
• Purchase Strong Like Water or The Strong Like Water Guided Journey by Aundi Kolber
• Purchase Try Softer or The Try Softer Guided Journey Aundi Kolber
• Purchase I Shouldn't Feel This Way out today!
• Get free study aids for Boundaries For Your Soul and The Best of You on my website.

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‍Related Episodes:

• ‍Episode 45: Strong like Water—Finding the Freedom, Safety, & Compassion to Move through Hard Things & Experience True Flourishing with Aundi Kolber‍
• Episode 46: People Pleasing as Survival, How Jesus Regulated Emotions & the Problem With Toxic Positivity and Spiritual Bypassing with Aundi Kolber

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Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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How do you navigate anger in your family?

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What do you do when a parent who was supposed to  love you and keep you safe actually caused you harm?

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Families evoke such complicated emotions. You might feel angry and then guilty about that anger. You might feel a mixture of love and resentment. Today, we tackle family anger and generational trauma. My guest, Lisa-Jo Baker was a teenager when her mother died, leaving her alone her father and his fierce temper. When she found herself exhibiting that same temper with her own son, she knew it was time to dig deeper.

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Her new memoir, It Wasn't Roaring, It Was Weeping, is a beautifully-written, incredibly powerful story of the legacy of anger, violence, and generational trauma—and how one family healed. You do not want to miss this conversation.

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Here’s what we cover:

1. When a parent is both hero & villain

2. The moment Lisa-Jo realized her father’s anger had become hers

3. How she began to investigate her past

4. A powerful metaphor for the scars of our families

5. The risk of discussing your pain with your parents

6. Self-righteous anger vs. wise anger

7. What Lisa-Jo confronted about racism as a South African and an American

8. Biblical wisdom for healing

Order It Wasn't Roaring It Was Weeping

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Additional Resources:

• Other books by Lisa-Jo Baker:
  • Never Unfriended: The Secret to Finding & Keeping Lasting Friendships
  • Surprised by Motherhood: Everything I Never Expected About Being a Mom
  • The Middle Matters: Why That (Extra)Ordinary Life Looks Really Good on You‍
• ‍Pre-order I Shouldn’t Feel This Way on Amazon‍
• Go to Ishouldntfeelthisway.com to claim pre-order bonus items‍
• The Best of You by Dr. Alison Cook‍
• Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents by Lindsay Gibson
• Weeping re-recorded by Josh Groban‍
• Mark 5:24-34

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‍Related Episodes:

• ‍Episode 97: I Shouldn't Feel This Anxious—Insights on Trauma & Healing with Monique Koven‍
• Episode 98: I Shouldn’t Feel Alone in My Grief—Why Your Grief Matters & the #1 Most Important Support For Those Who Are Grieving‍
• Episode 99: I Shouldn’t Feel Like My Spirit is Broken—Exploring a Broken Spirit & the Dark Night of the Soul with Christopher Cook‍
• Episode 100: I Shouldn’t Feel Betrayed By Someone I Trust—How to Grieve, Breathe, & Receive in the Wake of Broken Trust with Steve Carter

‍

‍Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Go to AquaTru.com and enter code BESTOFYOU at checkout to get 20% OFF any AquaTru purifier!
• Go to thrivemarket.com/bestofyou for 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift!
• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.
• Whether you're exploring distant lands or enjoying a staycation at home, Cozy Earth has your back. Visit cozyearth.com and unlock an exclusive 35% off with code BESTOFYOU.

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript:

Alison Cook: Hey everyone. Welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. One of my favorite times of the week is sitting down with you and having real conversations about hard things in our lives, where we don't shy away from naming what's hard, but we also are always looking to brave a better path ahead.

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Toward that end, I was thrilled with how many of you joined me live for the bonus Masterclass, “I Shouldn't Feel Anxious”. It was overwhelming to me, the power in that live Masterclass. It's a great class. I'm so proud of it. We are walking head-on into anxiety, which is a feeling so many of us feel on a regular basis. 

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It doesn't have to be a scary feeling. It doesn't have to be an unsettling feeling. It can be a feeling that becomes a cue that helps you frame and brave a better path through. If you've been waiting, if you've been interested in this new book I've been talking about for the last six weeks, I Shouldn’t Feel This Way, now is the time to order it. 

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You have until Tuesday, May 7th to pre-order I Shouldn’t Feel This Way and get access to this latest masterclass, “I Shouldn't Feel Anxious”. It's a one hour video. We'll send you the link. In addition to that, you will get the guided journal, which is a really cool tool I worked really hard to design. You'll get my favorite tool from the book called “the looking tool”, and you will also get access to last month's masterclass, “I shouldn't feel stuck in my head”. 

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So all of those bonus items are free for you when you pre-order a copy of I Shouldn’t Feel This Way anywhere books are sold. Go to Ishouldntfeelthisway.com to claim those bonus items. You've got, let's see, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, five days left to pre-order. IIt'll be in your hands May 7th, and you'll have those bonus items today.

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As I've said before, I absolutely love creating this content for you. I'm a teacher at heart, and it has been my joy to get this content into your hands. I cannot wait for you to have I Shouldn’t Feel This Way. I cannot wait to hear what you think about it. 

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Today's episode is the last episode of the “I shouldn't feel this way” series, where I've been interviewing guests about hard topics that they've faced. Today's episode is about a topic that I hear about so often from you. It's about the feeling of anger toward our own parents. 

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What do you do when the very person who was supposed to honor you and love you and keep you safe actually caused you harm? It's such a complicated set of emotions that we feel about our own parents. You might feel angry at a parent and then guilty about that anger. You might feel a mixture of love and closeness with the parent, even as you're aware that there are things they did that caused you pain.

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The relationship you have to your mom, to your dad, are some of the most important and formative relationships that we have, and they bring up a lot of complicated emotions for us. I devote a large portion of my book, The Best of You, to unpacking some of the ways our parents can cause harm to us. Now there's a spectrum of toxicity, as I lay out in that book; a lot of us are parents ourselves, and we're so aware that we are not getting everything right.

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There's a spectrum of toxicity. None of us is completely healthy, and none of our parents were completely healthy, and that's okay. On the other side of that spectrum, most people are not entirely toxic. It's so important to be able to tease out those complicated emotions of love and of anger and of hurt and of gratitude that we feel about our parents. My guest today, Lisa-Jo Baker, has written an absolutely beautiful memoir about her relationship with her dad.

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This book is so beautifully written. It's so poignant. It's so nuanced as she teases out the complicated mixture of emotions, the complicated relationship of really good things and really painful traumas that she experienced as a result of her relationship with her father.

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The book is called, It Wasn't Roaring, It Was Weeping: Interpreting the Language of Our Fathers Without Repeating Their Stories. It's out on May 7th, and I cannot recommend it more to you. Lisa-Jo does not shy away from naming really hard things in this book about her father, about some of the generational trauma that resulted in some real pain in her family. 

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That as a young mom herself, as she relays so honestly in today's episode, she realized, oh my gosh, I have to figure this out. I have to heal myself so that I don't carry on these patterns to my own children. I know that so many of you listening are asking that question. How do I heal so that I don't pass down some of these heartaches, some of these wounds to my own children? 

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I love that Lisa-Jo so bravely told her own story as a way to help all of us enter into our own. Lisa-Jo Baker is the bestselling author of Never Unfriended, Surprised by Motherhood, and The Middle Matters. She has a law degree from the University of Notre Dame and has lived and worked on three continents in the human rights field. She's a sought after national speaker and the author of the brand new memoir, It Wasn't Roaring, It Was Weeping. She and her family live outside Washington DC. 

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I've gotten to know Lisa-Jo, not only as a writer, but as a human behind the scenes, and she is one of the most real and authentic and wise and deeply brimming over with goodness humans that I have had the pleasure to meet in the Christian publishing industry. I'm so thrilled to bring you today this conversation with my friend, Lisa-Jo Baker.

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***

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Alison: Lisa-Jo, I am so thrilled to have this conversation with you about this magnificent book that you have written. I think one of the questions I get asked the most by folks who listen to this podcast who follow my work, who read my books, is along the lines of, “I'm doing my own healing work. How do I not pass it on to my own kids?” 

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These things that I've inherited from my own parents are from the ways that I'm parented. So we're going to get into that. I'm not going to start there, but I want to frame our conversation for those listening. There's so much going on here that I want to talk about, but we're talking about when we have complicated feelings about our parents. What do we do with those complicated feelings? Which is so much of what your story is about. And then also, what do we do when we are the parents, and we start to realize, oh man, now I've got to parent my own kids. 

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This is the legacy I was given, whether we're conscious of that or not. Some of us become conscious of that as we start to do the work of excavating our own childhood. You start off the book right away talking about your dad as both the hero and the villain of your story. Tell me a little bit about that, Lisa-Jo. When did you first know that both-and experientially/consciously? When did you first kind of name that reality that there's this hero and villain thing going on with your own father?

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Lisa-Jo: Definitely not as a child or a teenager or even in my 20s, because he's your dad. So anybody who has a parent who's complicated, and I guess what parent isn't, now that I am one to teenagers, I don't know that I would have been able to verbalize the problem. I actually think I would have described my father for most of my life as my biggest fan. My biggest champion. 

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He was so for me. I grew up in South Africa. He made a path to launch me to go to college in America. It was very exciting. He was my biggest believer and champion in what I wanted to do, and I wanted to go to law school and do human rights. He believed it and not only did he believe it, he made it possible for me to do it.

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So that was one narrative I lived in for a long time. At the same time, at the back of my mind was a box that I shoved all these other thoughts and feelings to do with my father into. It was a box I didn't look in very often. I pretended it wasn't there, but every now and again, that box would explode in my mind and I would have to reconcile it with what was happening again with a parent who was weirdly, the most stable, trustworthy force in my life and the most destabilizing force in my life.

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I lived in that weird tension, and I think the way I navigated it is, I wouldn't have described it this way at the time, but I ran away from home in the most respectable way you can. I went to college, but I went to college in another country. So I put an ocean between my father and I, and in doing so, I was able to live comfortably with the box in the back of my mind that I rarely had to open.

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Alison Cook: I think it's so helpful that you're naming this for us because I think that box is how we survive. You needed that narrative of your dad as the hero; we need our parents to be our heroes and, even the best of parents, there's complexity there. But so often this is the reality, where there's this box and in your case, it was significant.

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I remember as I was reading an early copy of your book and I was like, this is abuse. There's abuse here. There's trauma here. You said to me those words are very new for you. Is that right, Lisa-Jo?

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Lisa-Jo: They're very new in my vocabulary. I would never have described it that way. I actually remember talking to a therapist, maybe four or five years ago, and she described my childhood that way. I said to her, no, my dad's a passionate guy. Everybody has parents who have awkward moments or family explosions.

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She stopped me and said, no, that isn't a normal baseline. That isn't a normal way for parents to manage their anger. We have a word for that. We call it abuse. You have experienced trauma. It was so shocking for me. It was like trying to learn a new language. In the book, I talk a lot about language and it was a language that I had never verbalized. 

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I will say the first time in my journey when somebody else questioned my childhood narrative was when I met the guy who would become my husband, this really hot Michigander with cowboy green eyes. We were sitting up late one night talking, the way you do, sharing your stories. When I told mine to him, when I was done, he looked at me and he said, “I guess what I don't understand is how you didn't get into drugs or drinking”.

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I laughed. I was so surprised. I said to him, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? Like, why would I do that? He said, “dude, because your story is messed up. Like, how did you not get into hard drugs?” I never really reckoned with that. I thought it was a funny thing he said and moved on.

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But that combined with what that therapist said to me was the beginning of me saying, I think I need to go back and look at this box again.

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Alison Cook: Yeah. There's so much here that I want to unpack a couple of things. One, the remarkable ability of our psyche to compartmentalize like that. There's something beautiful about that when you think about trauma. For those listening, we talk about how a part of you needs to have this narrative about your childhood. It helped you survive. But then someone else comes in and says, “That's not normal”. 

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You tell a story in the book about an instance where your dad's really pretty verbally abusive with you. You show us versus preaching a sermon to us. You show us the nuances of your dad's complexity, the majestic-ness of him and some pretty vicious abusive language that is so painful for a young child.

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One of the things I say all the time is we want to name behaviors, not people. I can imagine for you, once people are coming in, poking a little bit at your narrative, there's protective components of your dad. No, I love this man. Don't call my dad this thing, which can keep you from doing the healing work you need to do to reconcile.

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This man I love also did these things that we are going to label accurately as toxic. It doesn't mean he is a toxic person per se, in this case. Tell me a little bit about that, how you untangled that for yourself.

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Lisa-Jo: The truth is, in all stories, there are characters that are both. They have the potential to be the hero and the villain. It's because in human nature, there are no caricatures; in the real world, we are both-and. So he was both this very destructive force in my life and this amazingly powerful force in my life for good.

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I didn't start to tease it out though, and here's what's interesting. There has to be impetus. There has to be a force in our story that makes us want to look at the places we don't want to look. Interestingly enough, it wasn't enough to do it for myself. It wasn't enough to do it when I got married.

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The impetus for me is when I had children and found myself screaming, like in a frenzy, like a psychopath at my middle son. It was such an out of control rage that I actually had the thought in my mind–oh my gosh, you are your dad. You are doing what dad did to you, Alison, and I write this in the book, I chose to continue to keep screaming in that moment.

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That for me, that was the moment when I knew–there's something here I have to figure out.

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Alison Cook: When you told that part of your story, I thought, oh my gosh, this is it. Because we become the thing that hurt us if we don't do our own work, and it brings humility. Oh, I'm the one in this case, and also I have a choice now. So tell me a little bit about that. That was your moment, and then something in that unlocked something in you. Was it conscious that, oh, I need to go now take this box out and look at it? Or was it, I'm assuming it was way more meandering than that.

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Lisa-Jo: Yeah, I wish things were that direct and straight and simple. I think mostly it was this horror of what I had done. I couldn't believe I did this to a kid I love that I was this furious with. The connection back to my father is, I felt a righteous degree of rage toward this child. He's a challenging kid. He had pushed all my buttons and I realized, oh, I'm justifying in my mind this outrageous behavior that I'm displaying exactly how my dad used to me.

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My dad is like a fire and brimstone preacher who believed he had righteousness on his side when he was so angry with us. At that moment I realized, whoa. This isn't a story I want to be in. I'm already deep in it. How do I get out of it? It was the beginning of what I would describe as like a five or six year process of pulling on that knot, that thread. 

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And, we're in the middle of our lives, there's carpool and laundry and school drop off. You don't have time to step outside of your life for that. So for me, it was fits and starts of trying to understand what was going on and how I needed to rewrite the story, but I didn't have any framework. I had nobody who could model for me what that looked like.

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Here's an interesting thing that happened for years. I had been invited by mops, they are now called MomCo, to speak at their annual conference. I would come and talk on temper. I was aware that I had a temper I needed to control. I remember my very first workshop, I was so nervous because they put me in this giant ballroom with a jumbotron.

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I thought, this is going to be mortifying when 10 people show up in the front row of this anger workshop. Instead, it was so massively packed that the fire marshal had to come to try to ask people to leave. So that was my clue that, oh I'm not the only one. That went on for three or four years until in 2019, they asked me if I would come and give a talk from the main stage, like a keynote on anger as a parent.

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I thought at the time, man, I don't know how much more there is to say about this. And Alison, I was standing in my bathroom, brushing my teeth, and this thought dropped into my mind: You should talk about what it's like to be the child of an angry parent. I took my toothbrush out of my mouth, looked into the mirror, and was like, I will never talk about this.

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Never ever talk about that. Because what I knew is if I wanted to talk about that, I would actually have to do business with my dad. Like, I would have to talk to him. He and I would have to unpack stuff and I thought it was going to vomit. I was like, no, nope. We don't talk about that. I would never even have identified myself as the child of an angry parent.

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So that was the beginning. I blame God for that. To me, as much as you can sense God speaking to you is what I sensed, but it was the beginning of him trying to help me get free.

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Alison Cook: Take out the box and look at it, which means you'd have to deal with your own anger with your dad, whom you adored and loved. That's one of the hardest things for us to do, is give ourselves permission to feel betrayed and disappointed by the people we love the most. It's wired in our little childlike DNA to adore these big people.

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I want to say, Lisa-Jo, at the end of the book, and I told you this, I ended up loving your dad. I think we talk a lot on this podcast about emotional immaturity. There's a wonderful book by Lindsay Gibson, Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. I think it's touching a nerve in our generation because our parents didn't have access to understanding about emotions that you have.

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You and I have barely gotten this much of, and our kids have a way lot more of. So there's this huge deficit. I want to name that there is empathy for a generation of parents that had all these wild emotions. You get into the book, when you unpack that box, you begin to see all the things that shaped your dad, the pain and the trauma he went through that shaped his rage.

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I want to get into that, but I want to say upfront, even when we have empathy for our parents and we get it, we still have to do the work of honoring the complicated mix of feelings that we have about them. We can do that in healthier ways, in ways that don't necessarily rip up the relationship.

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Sometimes we do have to allow the old relationship to die, to see if a new one can be born. That's why, again, this book that you've written is so powerful because it's such a delicate thing to talk about, Lisa-Jo. You begin to open up this box slowly and you find some pretty tough things that you bravely bring into your story. Can you talk a little bit about what that was like for you?

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Lisa-Jo: So the context is, I'm from South Africa. Born and bred. We're not a missionary family or pastor's kids. We're South African the way you're American. It’s where we grew up. But I grew up under the apartheid era. I was born in 1974 and apartheid was becoming codified into law in South Africa. The unique twist on the story though, is that at the time, my father had graduated medical school and he was serving as a missionary doctor in Zululand. 

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So I was this white kid born in Zululand at the height of apartheid. So you've got a lot of pressure in this cauldron already. My dad was a man of faith, a believer. Yet, he had been formed by the story that came before him. I remember when I started teasing out the idea of writing this book, my dad said to me, he was worried that I was going to put him in a box.

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He was worried that the book would put him in a box. I was able to say to him, actually, dad, writing the book, writing over years of conversations, we unpacked a lot of his childhood and I learned things about him I had no idea about. I didn't know how he had been formed. Honestly, when I look back at my parenting now, I actually feel like it could have been a lot worse. It could have been much more violent, like his own childhood had been. 

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So it was a weird dance to begin to have conversations with one another. But the impetus was this invitation to come and speak. So if there wasn't something that had happened, between the invitation to speak and what had happened with my own son, that I think sometimes what the Lord needs is an entry point in, because otherwise, why are we motivated to take the step?

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In being invited, I looked down and suddenly realized, oh, there's this part of me that is wounded. I didn't realize it. I've been living and there's the steady stream of bleeding happening out my side that I haven't really paid attention to before. The thing about Christ is, he doesn't want to make it worse.

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He wants to make it better. He gently drew my attention to this part of my life that I had been ignoring for several decades. It felt like this winsome invitation to step into it. I will say for anyone listening, the grace is that those things don't happen overnight. I was like “no” for a long time. Then I was like, I'll do this little tiny talk. Then I was like, I'm never writing a book on it. 

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I don't know if I told you this, Alison, but I was under a book contract, and for a year and a half, I wrote a completely different book. I was writing this non-fiction self-help book about social media and how to live a healthy life in a social media world. But at the same time, on the side, I was working on a fiction book about a father and a daughter. 

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I realized, I think my brain is trying to write about my dad, but I won't let myself. I remember I was talking to a really good friend one day as I was driving home about this book I had been writing, this other book. I was saying to her, oh, writing is so hard. I hate this book. She said to me, oh yeah, writing is so hard because at the end, you get this book you love. To which I responded, no, I don't feel that way. This book is dumb and boring and I don't know why anyone would want to read it. She said, I think that's a problem.

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I talked to my agent and described this fiction book I was writing on the side. She said, I think you're writing the wrong book. I think you're supposed to be writing about South Africa and your dad. The brain is strange–how it isn't ready to look directly at the thing that needs to be fixed. But I came like a crab sideways into this every step of the way.

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Alison Cook: That's amazing, Lisa-Jo, it's amazing to me as a student of the psyche. I think about those parts, the part of you sneakily came in that really wanted to tell the story, but other parts of you were afraid, understandably. Yeah. You told me that the process of really opening up that box, it was indeed really hard and really painful.

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I think that is sometimes the truth about healing. It can, when you go to that part of you, that's bleeding out the side, it can feel a little bit worse before it feels better and you need to be ready for that, You need to be prepared for that. I'm curious, as you began to write into some of those most painful parts, did you second guess yourself along the way? I would imagine it wasn't all roses and butterflies. I would imagine it takes a lot of courage. 

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Lisa-Jo: Yes. Every single step of the way. I will say that I didn't know how my dad would feel about this book. I didn't know if he would give me permission. I didn't know if he would enter into it with me. It's important for the reader to know we've had years, my father and I, to try to navigate our relationship.

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Having distance has helped. He's such a huge and powerful force in my life that sometimes, what's been really helpful for us are the conversations we have over Voxer or WhatsApp or text message because there's delay. There's opportunity for reflection and for feelings to calm down before you respond.

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We've had years. He's changed a lot. A lot of his life has changed in incredibly powerful and healthy ways. He is already in a healthier place. So I would like to clarify for people who have a parent who isn't in that place, it's a more complicated story. In the book, I do talk about how forgiveness is possible, whether the other person participates or not.

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I really believe that. But in my case, I did have this unique experience of my dad, and it was like we were doing a two step back and forth over the years, having snatches of conversation that would be really painful, and then backing off and taking time and then talking again in little bits and pieces.

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And my mom, I'll say this, my mom was a professional translator in South Africa. We have 12 national languages, and she used to talk a lot about the difference between translation and interpretation. How translation is a one-to-one matching of words, but interpretation is actually reading cultural context, the person you're talking to, their story.

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It's trying to give a more nuanced definition. In writing the book, that was the experience I had with my dad. I realized I need to interpret him and not try to translate him one-for-one. Being willing to enter into that place of tension together to hear him and see, am I understanding? But him then being willing to hear and interpret and understand me was the weird two-step we did over years.

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Alison Cook: Yeah. I love that. I love that. I want to say for the listener, you show the story of your life, it's a memoir. This is a memoir. It's beautifully written, the way that you show the messiness of that, the complexity of that two step. There are moments you describe in the book of sitting in a car in silence, and you show us the awkwardness of that dance, of staying in a relationship with someone where there's a lot of complexity. 

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And then every once in a while, there's a breakthrough. I think it's really powerful because we can break these things down into “five steps to forgiveness” or “five steps to healing”, that can be helpful to have that scaffolding, but the reality is when you go into life, it's snapshots and moments over time, that kind of assemble this larger picture of, oh my gosh, we're in a better place. We're in a better place. We understand each other more. And you show us that.

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Lisa-Jo: I hope so. I hope the book reads like a movie. I hope it's something you want to binge. I come from a family of movie-makers and story-writers. I wrote it like a fiction book. It's exciting. It sweeps from South Africa's Outback. So I hope the book feels bingeable because I tried to write it and put you into the story with me as we are experiencing this unique dynamic of me as a child who grew up in this unique South Africa and then moved to America. 

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There's a moment I share in the book that's one of my favorites, that I think is this perfect picture of what our parents do to us. So my father is a gifted doctor. He's done surgery. He studied under Dr. Christian Barnard, who did the first open heart transplant in the world. It happened in South Africa. But when I was a teenage girl, like a preteen, 12, I was at a birthday party and we were playing a game of tag and I slipped and fell and cut my leg really badly, right on my shin.

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My dad is the one who stitched it up. But when he stitched it up, he hadn't properly first excised enough of the dead skin. So when he stitched it, he stitched together dead skin, so the stitches didn't hold properly, and as the leg healed, the stitches slowly slipped out of each other's grasp and left this shiny shimmery patch of skin that's different from the rest of my leg.

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It's a lake that is on my leg because of my father. For me, it is a metaphor for our relationship, because in order to have a healthy healed relationship, you must excise the dead skin, the pain and the trauma. If you don't, there will always be a scar that will reflect back to you the things you haven't healed yet.

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Often growing up, I would look at my leg and as a girl, you're annoyed you have this. So I have this literal scar on my body because of my father's failure to do the work of a doctor that he knows. So when he sees the scar, he still comments on it. Ah, I didn't do that right. And so that's one of the pictures that the book offers the reader.

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I'm not a teacher. I always say I'm a storyteller. There are stories like this, about what it looks like to be formed by our parents in ways that leave actual marks on our lives and bodies.

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Alison Cook: Yeah, it's a beautiful image. It really is. I love what you said, Lisa-Jo, that regardless, in your case, your dad made a choice to also grow, to also express regret, to grow, to apologize for things late in life. There's been growth, there's so much in that metaphor, but even in light of that, there still are those scars. We don't completely make them go away.

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Lisa-Jo: He had the best intentions. He wasn't trying to leave a scar. That's why it's such a powerful metaphor. He loved me. He was trying to love me. In our conversations over the years, he has said to me, your mom and I loved you guys the way you love your kids. We weren't trying to scar you. We were trying to love you. 

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I think it's been helpful to read him through that lens because there've been times when I've read him in my mind as the bad guy. He is the bad villain of the story. It's been difficult to try to arrive at a central place where he isn't the villain or the hero. He's a human. He's a human father. 

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So he's 76. I'm going to be 50 this year. Guys, it's not too late is what I'm saying. I look at my own kids who are getting ready to leave the house, and I panic about it and think, oh my gosh, how have I messed them up? I tell myself, if it's not too late for dad and I, and we are literally still rewriting stories from my childhood every time he is willing to sit with me and bear witness to something painful and recognize his role in it. 

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A scar is healed, but I will say, for years he wasn't willing. And what's terrifying is to bring those tender stories to our parents, afraid that they will deny them or say it was your fault or say it didn't happen or that they don't remember. That is a very painful risk. It took me a long time to be ready to even risk those conversations,

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Alison Cook: I love how you put that and sometimes they gaslight, they do all the things, and then you have those precious pearls. In your case, he did rise to meet you there, but I love what you're saying because the truth is, to circle back to what I was saying at the beginning about how do we incorporate some of what we've learned about the complexity of our own parents into our parenting, I caught a glimpse of it as you were talking. 

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We have to learn how to let our kids see us as both the hero and the villain. We don't want to be our kids' heroes. We don't want to be our kids' villains. I'm curious, as you parented your own kids, it's so different than how we were parented in many ways, but it's really showing up as, oh my gosh, I completely blew it. That's actually the key to being that healthy parent in a way is owning it when you are the villain in the story for your kids.

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Lisa-Jo: Right. As you say, naming it has been really powerful. So because temper is something I've struggled with and no one will push your buttons quite like a toddler, as my kids got older, I learned to recognize when I was starting to feel angry and then to actually name it out loud to my kids. I felt when I named it to them, it was like a flashing warning sign to me and to them.

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I would be able to say, guys, mom is starting to freak out. I would say very calmly, this is a lot. I feel overwhelmed right now. I would literally do what you say–I would name how I was feeling. I named how I needed to take a break or step away or why. It was such an interesting thing.

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I started to recognize my temper as when your gas light flashes and it tells you, you need to be refueling. Those feelings of anger, I didn't used to see them as righteous, like, time to really let those kids know!! Now I see them as, oh dear, warning sign. Mom is about to lose her mind.

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Then there are options for me: step away, tell your kid how you feel, sit in another room. Even when they were little, they could manage for a while without me. So naming my actual feelings has been really powerful. I think it's helped them be able to recognize their feelings at the same time, to say, you can feel those feelings, but your feelings are not allowed to be the boss of you.

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That is not permissible in our house. So we get to be the boss of our own feelings. You can feel them. You can be mad, you can be sad, but we don't let our feelings hold other people hostage. Your feelings don't get to be terrorists in this house.

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Alison Cook: That's so good. That's so good, Lisa-Jo. The other big character in the book, besides anger and all these big emotions, is racism. It’s a prevalent theme throughout the book. It is in many ways the underlying villain in some ways of the story. There are moments in the book that show the reality of what it's like to grapple with aspects as white women of our own participatory, whether directly or indirectly, through our being part of a dominant culture in really horrible things and how we wrestle with that.

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You go there with us. You tell us the stories. There's one where you arrive in America, in DC, you and I were there, we discovered at the very same time, really, which was so crazy to read in the book. But it was your introduction to racism in America. So there was that spin on it. Then you have to circle back and wrestle with your own relationship to it as a South African. Tell me a little bit about what that was like for you to wrestle with as you wrote the book.

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Lisa-Jo: The book is called, It Wasn't Roaring, It Was Weeping, and it's actually a lyric taken from a very famous anti-apartheid political protest song. So when you talk about racism, if you're South African and you hear the title, immediately South Africans will start singing the song to me. They're so familiar with it. 

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So it's been re-recorded by Josh Groban and many others. Of course it has lots of nuances. It applies to my story with my dad and South Africa, but that is the context. I was a white child born in apartheid under institutional racism. Then I moved to America in a context I wasn't familiar with.

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A large part of the book is connecting those two stories, because what happens is we tend to tell ourselves, apartheid's over now. We have a new president and a new constitution and a new flag and a new national anthem. Yay us! We're better. It was an interesting experience for me in 1994 to have lived through South Africa's first free election and voted in it.

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I lived through South Africa's racial reckoning. And then as a student and now adult in America, to have lived through America's racial story and reckoning over the last four years, that's still ongoing. It's been a very unique position to occupy in both countries. I think the tendency we have is to say, racism is something that you do and you have to not do.

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So I either do it or I don't do it. Obviously, I don't want to think of myself as a racist, so I don't do it. We're good. Part of what I wanted to share in telling the story is whether or not you think of yourself as participating in any kind of racism, you are related to it simply by being human. Like you're in God's family, you are descended.

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If you trace your family lines back, I promise you, you are going to find stories. I was shocked to discover that there are some really hard stories I share, that I learned for the very first time when talking to my dad. He said to me, I've never told anyone the story before, and then shared a story. I call it “the monster that I talk about in the middle of the night”. I remember saying to my husband, as soon as I heard my dad tell that story, I knew in my spirit, it had to be in the book. 

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I asked my husband, man, is this crazy? Is it going to be a disaster if I share the story? He said this to me, it's one thing to study about racism to read about it, to march, to watch the news, to follow the social media commentary, to opt in or out, depending on what side of it you are on. It is a very different thing to read a story and enter into it with somebody you trust and view the effects of racism from the inside.

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As white people, we don't often have access to that. But if I can invite the reader to stand in a story and then maybe ask themselves, huh, maybe it's not as simple as choosing not to be racist, but recognizing that we are for better or worse, all related as the human family.

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Our family trees hold stories that have consequences for people of color. We have to face them. We have to be willing to tell the stories. So that's what the book tries to do. It's not here to lecture you. It's here to tell you, look at your own story and then maybe look differently at the people of color in your life because your story is connected to theirs. Whether you want it to be or not, you have got monsters in your family tree too.

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Alison Cook: It's so nuanced but you're teasing out that line between victim and perpetrator and I want to say that carefully, because if you are an oppressed or marginalized group, you have been the victim of racism and that is a very different thing. If you've been abused as a child, that is a very different thing. So there's that category that's real and full stop. You are the victim in this situation. 

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Then there's this other category that's so hard to talk about, where in your story, for example, my dad was verbally abusive with me and then I find myself screaming at my child–how do I make sense of that? Same with racism, here I am. I'm somebody who was anti-apartheid. I come to him, and then I find out, oh my gosh, people in my own family did these things. I have to face it in myself.

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Lisa-Jo: I think the metaphor I use in the book actually is this idea of, there was an equation I was trying to solve my whole life. I somehow wanted injustice to equal justice. Like, how do you balance this equation? How do you cancel out the injustice to get to justice? In my life, those things were intertwined.

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My father was part of the injustice I experienced in my life. Then South Africa had this ongoing injustice narrative. I wanted to be a human rights lawyer. I came to America to study law. I went to law school. I wanted to figure out how to cancel out injustice. It's what drove me. It drove my dad. 

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Yet here we are on the other side of the equation, also part of the injustice story. That was the tension, recognizing I used to think there's us and them, like good guys and bad guys, that I want to be on the good guy's side of the equation. Then it was very unsettling to discover–of course, we live on both sides because we are humans who have sin natures and have to constantly be willing to do the very difficult work of looking at ourselves, our own motivations, our own stories.

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And it's very uncomfortable to be challenged to do that. Yet that is what it requires if we actually want justice. Shalom talks about wholeness; it's not peace, it means a right relationship with others, with ourselves, with God. To do that, we have to be willing to do a kind of heart surgery on ourselves, where we ask ourselves, are we doing that? 

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So you can have my dad who moves to Zululand, who serves as a missionary doctor there, who raises his daughter speaking Zulu. At the same time, he owns a farm where people live as indentured servants and don't even have access to running water or toilets and it never occurs to him to update that. Both of those things at the same time. You are on both sides of the equation.

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Alison Cook: I have to say again, the stories that you told in the book were so much more compelling to me to do the work of wrestling than all the education that I've received. I noticed as I was grappling with some of those stories, all the complicated emotions that came up. One of the things I felt was, you know, I want to present myself as the good guy–

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Lisa-Jo: We all do!

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Alison Cook: Yeah, I've actually been, whether indirectly or directly, I benefit in ways I may know or don't know, it doesn't matter. That's the work. We know that, through all the education, many of us who paid attention and are trying to do this work, but there's nothing like wrestling with it inside your own soul. That's what your book did for me. I want to say for the listener, you will be wrestling. I said this when I interviewed JS Park, who I know you worked with on his book. I said the same thing to him. 

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I said, reader, beware, you will be asked to wrestle with some of your own uncomfortable emotions. But it is my belief that is where the work actually gets done. That's where you actually get into that transformational piece.

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Lisa-Jo: Yeah, my hope, especially because my story starts in South Africa, so for an American reader, it feels maybe like an easier entry point. Because it's easier to look at somebody else's country and say, whoa, you guys are messed up over there. We so were, and we still are struggling. But what's interesting about South Africa, I had a good friend who read an early copy of the book.

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I live now in Maryland here on the East coast, outside of DC and Baltimore. The first half of the book takes place in South Africa. But my friend said to me when I moved to the States and I started unpacking what I discovered about the history of the Chesapeake and the slave trade here in Maryland, she said, as she was reading, she said out loud, wait, what?

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No. I love Maryland. What? I love Maryland. I described the trees. We live on this beautiful road where the trees change colors in the Chesapeake Bay. It's so beautiful. Also, I worked in Africa and visited Ghana and spent time at the slave fort, the former slave fort there that was the depot for millions of Africans who were sold into slavery here.

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Guess where they arrived? The boats arrived here in the Chesapeake, right where I currently live. It was this moment of recognizing the intertwining of our country's stories, how we forget that our countries are so intertwined. So it is impossible to say, not me! I'm not a bad guy.

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You're right. You're complicated, but your story, your history, absolutely, is part of the story of what happened coming out of Africa. No matter if you live in your Maryland home and the only thing you've ever thought about the Chesapeake is the school trips my kids take to taste oysters for the first time, it was like this shocking moment.

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I say in the book, listen, I'm a tired mom. I don't want to be parsing through history in this way. it would be so much easier to be like, huh, interesting, and keep driving. But there's a story I tell in the book that you're familiar with, where I was challenged by a great black human rights lawyer in South Africa.

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We were literally driving through a black South African township and he rolled down his window and told me, look out the window, look. Look what has happened to my people. That's a metaphor all through the book. Are you willing to roll down your window and look? Can you look at the stories?

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Alison Cook: It's so powerful because when we look, we can't fix all the problems in the world that's, but we can look and we can name. We can choose not to gaslight it or minimize it or spiritually bypass it. We can name it for what it is. There's something so powerful about that. When we do that, it's such a paradox. 

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The book is beautiful, Lisa-Jo. As we close, I wanted to ask you, we've touched on two different themes here, but for the listener who is wrestling with really complicated feelings about their own parent, about their own childhood, what wisdom would you want to impart to them as a result of your own deep dive into your own past?

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Lisa-Jo: I'm not sure I have wisdom, but I maybe have some courage to say, the great and amazing thing about God is that I have learned, as someone who loves stories, and my brothers make movies for a living in South Africa, my whole family still lives there. What I have discovered about God, is that he too loves stories. He's the great storyteller. 

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In my experience, there are no threads, no plot twists in our story that he drops and doesn't circle back to. So if you have a place in your story that's painful, a thread that you don't even want to touch, in my experience, simply being willing to look in the direction of that thread is enough for God to be willing to enter into, the beginning of the repair. 

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You don't have to know how to repair it. It's actually not on you, but if you are willing to bring it to him, a story that has really stuck with me recently that I've looked at in a new way is the Bible story we've often heard. It's one of those weird ones of the woman who had the issue of blood. She's bleeding, and all she does is come to Jesus and touch him. That's it. She doesn't expound on it. She doesn't say how terrible it is, or how painful or how humiliating. It's this part of her she doesn't want anyone to know about.

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It's so embarrassing. I've thought a lot about our painful stories that way. This part of you that you're aware of that you don't want anyone else to know about. It feels like you're bleeding all the time, and you don't know how to fix it. There's something about taking it to Jesus and saying, here it is. Just touch him and tell him, here it is.

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And then see what he does. Because in my experience, over the last five years of this book and the decade before that, he has been very gentle and very slow.

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Alison Cook: Yes.

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Lisa-Jo: He has gone back to that bleeding area, that thread that I thought would never get stitched back into the story. He has actually cut away the dead skin and he has slowly stitched it in a way where it isn't painful to touch anymore and it's not bleeding. So my encouragement is to be willing to look in the direction of the thing you've been ignoring.

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Alison Cook: That is beautiful, Lisa-Jo, I love that. I love this book, this beautiful offering. I know it cost you a lot to write it. I'm grateful that people have a chance to get their hands on it and that you've been willing to share. That's what I meant by brave when I circled back and I said, I think it's brave, as someone who helps people go into those really hard places. Not everybody chooses to do that. 

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I think it's so brave and it is what brings true transformation. One last question. I ask all my guests, what is bringing out the best of you right now?

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Lisa-Jo: Maybe it feels cheesy to say, but it's the fact that we are savoring these last few months of my oldest before he leaves to go to college. There's something about knowing that I don't want to be tied down by the weightiness of lasts, but instead lean into the savoring of it with him. 

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I'm trying to savor the story we're in where there's still five of us. It is bringing out the best, I would say, of all of us. I think we're all very aware that we're eating the last moments of this feast of being a family of five, and it has really brought out something pretty special I didn't even know to expect.

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Alison Cook: That's beautiful. I love that. Thank you so much for your time and your effort to bring your own story into the world and to incubate so many stories of others as well. It's beautiful. I'm so grateful to have had this chance to get to know you through this book.

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Lisa-Jo: I feel honored. It's not often you get a therapist that you get to process a book like this with, back and forth, as a friend. So thank you for giving us the gift of naming and a framework that helps make sense of some of our really complicated stories.

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Have you ever felt betrayed by someone you thought you could trust?

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It's a deeply painful experience that can leave you questioning not only the betrayer but also your own judgment. Trust, once broken, seems almost impossible to rebuild.

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My guest today, Steve Carter, experienced a series of profound betrayals at a pivotal moment in his life. In 2018, amidst misconduct allegations against Bill Hybels, founder of Willow Creek Community Church, Steve made the difficult decision to step down from his role as a newly minted lead pastor—a position he once considered his dream job. Shortly thereafter, he faced yet another personal betrayal by his own parents.

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Reeling from the loss of his job, his dream, and his trust in those closest to him, Steve entered a desert season guided by three words he sensed God gave to him: Grieve. Breathe. Receive. Steve's journey through loss is so powerful, so honest, and so deeply healing. Please do not miss this conversation!

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Here’s what we cover:

1. 2 essential ingredients for trust

2. Why grief is the antidote to cynicism

3. Confronting our attraction to patterns of narcissism

4. The anger high vs. the peace of forgiveness

5. How he hangs on to his love for the church

Preorder Grieve, Breathe, Receive: Finding a Faith Strong Enough to Hold Us by Steve Carter

Get a copy of Evening Psalms by Steve Carter

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Additional Resources:

• The Thing Beneath the Thing: What's Hidden Inside (and What God Helps Us Do About It) by Steve Carter‍
• The Craft & Character podcast with Steve Carter‍
• Stevecarter.org‍
• @SteveRyanCarter on Instagram and X
• The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet. -Frederick Buechner‍
• Pre-order I Shouldn’t Feel This Way on Amazon / Claim your bonus items at ishouldntfeelthisway.com
• More on Kubler-Ross's five stages of grief‍
• The feelings wheel
• ‍Genesis 3:11
• ‍Boundaries For Your Soul by Dr. Alison Cook and Kimberly Miller‍
• Jesus Christ by Brand New‍

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‍Related Episodes:

• ‍Episode 97: I Shouldn't Feel This Anxious—Insights on Trauma & Healing with Monique Koven‍
• Episode 98: I Shouldn’t Feel Alone in My Grief—Why Your Grief Matters & the #1 Most Important Support For Those Who Are Grieving with J.S. Park‍
• Episode 99: I Shouldn’t Feel Like My Spirit is Broken—Exploring a Broken Spirit & the Dark Night of the Soul with Christopher Cook‍
• Episode 79: Surviving Trauma & A Path to Forgiveness—Finding God In the Hardest Parts of Your Story With Esau McCaulley

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‍Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Head to factormeals.com/bestofyou50 and use code bestofyou50 to get 50% off!This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.
• Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.
• Go to thrivemarket.com/bestofyou for 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift!
• Make the switch and build a starter kit. 15% off AND free shipping when you buy a Notes starter kit at notescandle.com/bestofyou.‍

Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript:

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Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to the 100th episode of The Best of You Podcast. It's hard to believe this is our one hundredth episode since the podcast aired almost two years ago, and gosh, what a journey this has been. I have loved this work of bringing different topics to you each week. It feeds the teacher in me, the part of me that really enjoys breaking down concepts and making them understandable.

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I used to teach high school and I've taught some graduate level courses in psychology. And so this work of podcasting has just been such a treasure for me. And the fact that you've responded to this podcast in the ways that you have through sharing it, through messaging me, through listening and reviewing all of your kind reviews has really validated this work that I do. And I'm just so grateful for that. 

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Frederick Buechner has a beautiful quote that says, the place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet. And this podcast has been one of those places for me where I felt like and here I go. I'm going to start tearing up, which is par for the course for me on this podcast. But this podcast, sitting in my little back room closet, speaking words over the microphone to your listening ears has been a place where I can tease out ideas and, and learn with you, even as I'm trying to describe and explain and unpack and untangle the knots of complicated topics related to psychology, related to emotional health, and related to our spiritual lives and our faith in God.

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And so on this release of our 100th podcast episode, I just want to say, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for caring about this work of bringing together good psychology, good science, with deep, rich, abiding faith in the God who made us and made himself known through the person of Jesus.

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I'm so grateful that you're here with me each week. It gives me so much hope in the world, as I know you are putting so much goodness, so much healing, and so much light into the world around you, even as we gather on these Thursdays to talk through hard topics.

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Today we are continuing the “I shouldn't feel this way” series. We're talking about betrayal, and Steve Carter, my guest today, is an incredible example of naming what's hard, framing your reality and then braving a healing path. And those are the three practices that I lay out in I Shouldn’t Feel This Way. Name what's hard. Frame your reality. And then brave a new path. Those three practices are essential to living a wholehearted life in partnership with God's spirit.

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So this book, I Shouldn’t Feel This Way, is the most forward facing of all my books. It's teaching you how to do these daily practices, again, of naming, framing, and braving so that you can stay on that path toward the life that God has for you. The book comes out May 7th, and when you preorder it, you will get the first three chapters now. 

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So you'll get the naming step and the framing step, which is actually my favorite step, which I shouldn't say, but it is because I think it's the least talked about and I think it's important, but you're going to get those first three chapters, a guided journal, as well as access to the video masterclass stuck in your head that I did a few weeks ago. You can get I Shouldn’t Feel This Way anywhere books are sold. It's going to be in your hands in just a couple of weeks, but you'll get started on those first few chapters now. Head over to ishouldntfeelthisway.com to claim those bonus items.

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So in today's episode, we get into betrayal. Betrayal is the act of betraying a trust that has been placed in someone. Maybe you placed trust in a partner, in a friend, in a pastor, in a parent, in a person. work colleague, and maybe they were unfaithful to you. Maybe they lied to your face or spread lies behind your back. Maybe they broke promises time and time again. Maybe they shared secrets that you had told them in confidence, maliciously with other people. Betrayal isn't making a one-time mistake. 

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We talk about this a lot on this podcast, And I want to drill down on it one more time here–we all make mistakes. We all make mistakes. The difference between making a mistake and a pattern, is whether you own it, whether you can go back to the person and say, I made a mistake. I'm so sorry. Here's what I'm doing to change so that this never happens again. 

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You'll hear my guest talk about this today. Betrayal is a consistent pattern of unfaithfulness, of deception, of manipulation, of broken promises, of breaching confidentiality, of toxic behaviors. Without taking ownership, without repairing, without any effort to make a change.

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And it's incredibly painful when you realize that someone you trusted has betrayed you. And not only have they betrayed you, but they're not trying to make it right. They're trying to cover over what they did by adding more lies, and more secrecy.

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My guest today, Steve Carter, has experienced every kind of betrayal and he's writing about it in his new book called Grieve, Breathe, Receive. And one of those betrayals in particular was extremely public. Many of you may have read the story about what happened at the Willow Creek church. This book is just a profound offering about the journey of grief that we have to go on in the wake of a major betrayal.

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I love that Steve framed this healing journey as one of grief because in doing so, he honors the truth of his experience even as he honors the process of grieving that loss that he's been on. Steve Carter is the bestselling author of The Thing Beneath the Thing and the host of The Craft and Character podcast. He's a coach and he currently serves as a teaching pastor at Forest City Church and teaches regularly at churches, conferences, and businesses worldwide. He lives outside Chicago, Illinois, with his wife and two kids, 

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You can get his brand new book, Grieve, Breathe, Receive: Finding a Faith Strong Enough to Hold Us anywhere books are sold. I cannot recommend it enough if you're someone who's experienced betrayal by anyone or just experienced any sort of complicated loss that has left you feeling confused and anxious, angry and frustrated. This book has real help and real hope for you. I'm so thrilled to bring you my conversation today with Steve Carter.

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Alison Cook: Steve, this is just such a powerful book. Grieve, breathe, receive–it's such a powerful title. But I was really struck by the betrayal after betrayal that launched this process of grief. Throughout the book, you write about these betrayals, the betrayal being on staff at Willow Creek, not just on staff, but being, correct me if I'm wrong, but being tapped to essentially succeed Bill Hybels as the lead teaching pastor. Is that right?

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Steve: It was going to be the two of us, but I was, over content and with the congregation, in many ways going to be the face of the primary preacher. Yep.

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Alison Cook: I remember you telling me, when you interviewed me about The Best of You, that you had a book queued up about that, and it was even called The Best of You. 

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Steve: Yes. Yes. It was so wild because when we talked and I saw your title, I was like, I always loved that title. What was crazy is, when I submitted that book, my publisher knew about the Bill Hyvel story coming out and they told me and I was like, what? So that's how I woke up to it. 

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I was preparing and had written a book, like a young Timothy taking and stepping in after Paul, and then to see it all come crashing down and the betrayal of it…yeah. Yeah.

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Alison Cook: It's stunning because that book went by the wayside. You write about another book that went by the wayside, but it brings tears to my eyes because I know how hard it is to write a book by your own decision, because you realized I'm not writing this book out of the right place. So you pulled that book. 

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You've discovered that the story you'd been told about your biological father wasn't true. So a betrayal by your own parents. There is just a stunning list of betrayals that you experienced within a fairly short period of time.

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I think about these “I shouldn't feel this way” moments. And as I was reading this with tears in my eyes, thinking this is more than any one human should have to encounter, I'm thinking to myself, and you do such a good job of describing, you were the one in the wake of all of these betrayals that's left without a job. That's left with people mad at you because you pulled out of Willow Creek on the early end, before a lot of other people did. 

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While the church was still in the midst of covering it up, correct me if I'm wrong. So you're the one without a job. You're the one people are mad at. You're the one reeling. You're the one feeling horrible, and yet you hadn't done anything wrong.

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Talk about an “I shouldn't feel this way” moment. And Steve, put us back in that moment in time when you have so many emotions, when you hadn't done anything wrong. 

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Steve: It's a little bit overwhelming to hear you retell all of those sequences. And I don't know if three years ago, I would have even used the word betrayal, and I never would have even connected the idea that betrayal could be trauma. And the effects of that are: they mess you up.

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You start to just wonder, how can I trust myself? And so I think back to when it all came out, as it started to unfold, I thought I could save it and I thought I could get everyone to the table and I thought I could, I thought we could do this.

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I never actually believed that an institution would betray victims. I never thought that the people that I knew would choose to preserve something. whether it's a story, whether it's a secret, whether it's hiding, and as I started to be awakened to that, whether it's in my family, whether it's in my church family, I was like, is any place safe? 

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And I say this pretty much every weekend I preach now–safe plus consistent again and again, over and over, on repeat, makes someone worthy of trust. If someone is unsafe and consistent, they're not worthy of trust. Or if they're safe, but inconsistent, it's really hard to trust them.

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What's so tricky is when you start to play out the areas and the spaces where you're getting blamed as the one that betrayed them by leaving. And I'm like, friends, I fought to do the right thing. I didn't do it perfectly. There's some stuff I really wish I would have done differently, like the book that we talked about a moment ago.

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There's things I wish I did differently, but for the most part, what I really longed for was for the church to be what I know the church to be. To walk alongside and hold space with the victims and the marginalized and the hurting, and to proclaim goodness. But I also realized that I was accessible. The former lead pastor was gone but I was online and people could get to me and I would engage.

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And I began to have to really translate their pain. Because what they said, some of it was just not personal, but it felt very personal. It was about someone else, but they were directing all of that energy towards me. And it was hard. It's hard to navigate through all that stuff.

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Alison Cook: I'm just thinking of the listener who, maybe not at the same public level of betrayal where everybody knows and it was just such an enormous international scandal, but there was a process of wanting to believe in the institution.

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There was a journey of wanting to believe, even as information was coming out until you got to that point of, I've got to leave. I've got to post my resignation. That's important for people to hear, because we do feel so much guilt.

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It takes so much time. How can I not believe in this institution? How can I not believe that what these people are telling me isn't true? I think that's such a normal process. And I guess I'm curious about that. That was maybe a few months of a period of time, where you just came to the point of recognizing, I can no longer trust this institution, this behemoth. Yeah.

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Steve: I got subpoenaed to meet with one of the victims and two two other staff people and one elder and Willow's lawyer and this woman's lawyer. And I knew this woman, like she lived in my neighborhood back in the day. Like I knew her. And when she walked in the room, I just knew right then something happened because that wasn't my friend. And she sat across and shared her story. And up until that moment. I was like, hey is there truth here? 

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My wife, she was a lot quicker to the truth than I was. I was hopeful. I was hopeful we could figure this out. But when I sat across the table with this woman and she shared, and at the end of it, the end of the conversation, I was like, hey, I'm in Bible college, they never taught me how to have conversations with lawyers. I don't know how to do this. We were friends. Can I call her? 

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And the lawyer talks to her and she says, I would like that. And so the next day I call her because I'm imagining the vulnerability hangover that she's feeling. And at the end of the conversation, I ask her this question, the dumbest question, but the greatest question I ask her is, what would you like me to do? And she said, get to the truth. And I said, okay. 

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From that moment, I felt like I had permission from a victim to get to the truth. It jolted me out of the gravitational, institutional preservation protection-mode to, oh my goodness. And I just started going one by one to each of the women victims and hearing their stories. I totally went rogue and I don't know if it was the right thing to do, going totally rogue. But I didn't know who I could trust. As I started to hear these stories, I realized this stuff happened.

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Alison Cook: Yeah.

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Steve: If we can't name what we did, if we can't name what we did, how can we fully claim what God did?

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And there was this massive cognitive dissonance. That was the tricky part. I think that moment opened my eyes, and then the next few months. every single day, some other news or information is being revealed to me that I'm going, oh my goodness, I got totally played. I got played. So it's just, it was tricky and all of that.

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Alison Cook: This is the thing about complicated emotions–and I see this with so many people walking through what you're talking about. I think people who are really loyal, people who are really empathetic, almost don't want to feel those things that you feel–the distrust. There’s something we're not getting at–what is the truth? 

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Sometimes really going after the truth forces you to do things like going rogue, talking to people, asking things, and it can feel uncomfortable to people. It can feel like you're being disloyal, it can feel like you're going behind people's backs, but you're trying to get at the truth, and so the fact that you're naming that is so helpful to people because it can feel really uncomfortable. We might rather avoid the complexity of those feelings.

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Steve: And that's when I first heard the title of your next book, I was like, that's exactly how I felt. I shouldn't feel this way–I'm much more in homeostasis by being loyal, believing the best, really leaning forward with hope, giving someone the benefit of the doubt. That's how I am. And to realize as I start to untangle, oh my goodness, I'm having these thoughts. 

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And then all of a sudden you shouldn't feel this way. Behold, it felt so unfamiliar for me to actually see the whole of a person, the beauty and the brokenness and hold both. I was so scared; it felt so unfamiliar. I think some people are way better at that. I felt like I had to grow up really quickly in that regard.

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Alison Cook: This is the trauma of toxicity and of gaslighting and of these tactics that people use. It's beautiful, your God given design to be loyal, to be empathetic; it is beautiful that you want to have hope, that you want to believe in people. That's a beautiful aspect of our God-given design.

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When people manipulate, exploit, prey upon that, and you came to find out, actually, that had been happening to you since you were a young child. You didn't even know. It distorts that otherwise good quality. And so you're trying to figure out, how do I be wise? And also that innocence that isn't all bad.

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And so I want to pivot here, because that's where you end up. How do I get back? I don't want to become somebody who's just completely untrusting, who's cynical, who's skeptical, which would be an understandable path after what you went through. Completely understandable, Steve. This is why I want everyone to read your book.

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Because you have experienced the depths of betrayal, and also there's a lot of hope in this book, a lot of goodness. You haven't lost that innocence. And one of the things that is so powerful is that you frame what happened in this book as grief. You frame it as a process of grief.

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And I thought that was such a fascinating way to frame the complicated mix of emotions that you went through. How did you begin to conceptualize the aftermath, the incredible emotional aftermath, as grief? I think there are a couple of ways you could have really framed it, but that framing of grief was really interesting to me.

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Steve: Yeah. The day after I resigned on August 5th, 2018, my wife and kids and I went to Madison, Wisconsin. I got up super early and I had turned my phone off, and so I turned my phone on that morning and it's just littered with comments. Some say good things. Majority of them are really painful things and I go on a walk in downtown Madison, and I'm just asking the Lord, and I haven't had this kind of thing happen very often in my life, but I just was like, I need a word, I need something. 

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I don't know what I'm doing next…I knew what the next 25 years of my life was, I don't know what it is now. I sat down at a bench, I didn't hear anything and I literally just kept crying out to God, and three words came. Grieve, breathe, receive. And I just, I wrote them down. I went to a donut shop in downtown Madison. I sat down and I wrote, it was almost like a marching order for me.

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Grieve what is. Grieve what I thought it was going to be, grieve how key people let me down, breathe in new mercies, and exhale anything that's getting in the way, and receive what I need to learn, receive what I need to own, and receive who God wants me to become. That became a mantra, but to be honest, I had no idea what the word grief meant.

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I had spent my life bypassing the desert, running from the wilderness, not leaning into grief at all. And I think as I started to lean in, I realized oh, I got to feel this. And I think in my own home growing up, I learned I shouldn't feel grief. I think even on Sunday mornings, when everything's just always happy and up and to the right, we're just subconsciously taught, you shouldn't feel this, you shouldn't feel this.

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And I think I had to learn my definition for grief and it's–there's way better ones–but for me it was helpful: I'm going to honor what comes up. When change shows up, and there's good change and there's hard change and there's just change. And how do I honor all of those complex emotions that are happening within me?

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Not try to bypass them, but hold space for them. And it became something that just slowly, but surely, God began to reshape and reform me to be a healthier person than I was previously.

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Alison Cook: Yeah. You and that, and you walk us through in the book, those three words, that mantra, it shaped the next few years. Tell us a little bit about the different emotions, the different complex emotions that came up for you.

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Steve: Yeah. One of the greatest gifts in the desert season, because my family, we lived close to Willow, then we moved to Arizona, and I just started reading the desert mothers and fathers. I just tried to hike and really walk through the deserted lands and see what started to show up.

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And one of the great gifts of that time was a bunch of mentors who had been in my life from years prior just made themselves available. I couldn't have gotten through this as quickly without them. But one of them, he knows I love Hebrew and Greek and words. And so he just called me and he just said, how's the SPADURA?

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And I'm like, what are you talking about? Is that a Greek word? I don't know that word. He's like the SPADURA, and I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. There's this acronym that he was he saw grief and it was really based off of Kubler-Ross's five stages of grief, but it was really talking about the shock and the sadness that comes and being able to honor it. 

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Oftentimes, as Kubler-Ross writes, we start to kind of bargain. ButI had a lot of anger. It just wasn't fair. Wasn't right. And I have mastered the art of bright-siding; I never wanted to be angry, so I could always turn it to be good. And this was a chance where I just had to sit in it. And then oftentimes when I sat in it, because I didn't have any muscles for grief, that anger turned to such profound sadness that it was like a downturn. There was a depression. I never had been on medication before that, and I needed help. My body could not get me through this like it normally had. And then there's this almost surprise, I don't know if it's hope, if it's a little bit of an upside, it's maybe where the waves aren't crashing as much and you just start to begin to see this. 

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And so as I started to walk through this, I realized it's not like you go from S to P to A to D to U to R to A. It's really like, I can be at a U and then go on Twitter and see what someone's posted. And it sends me to A, and it's almost like ping pong all over. And it felt more spiral, dynamic, and circular than it did actually moving from stage to stage. And so those words became almost like a feelings wheel for me to teach me how to name where I was at, because again, I was brought up with “You shouldn't feel this way. You shouldn't feel angry”. And to be able to honor that was a real gift for me.

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Alison Cook: You talk about in the book how crucial it was for you to be defining your reality by naming, to be naming and defining your reality, and that was a lifeline for you. And I can imagine with the level of gaslighting and the level of having to unpack all of the manipulations, it's almost like you had to replay the tape of the story of those years at Willow, even the story of your childhood with the other betrayal against this new understanding of the truth. And so tell me a little bit about that process of really spending that time in the desert, redefining your whole reality.

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Steve: This was the hardest part for me of the grief process. Because I had to be able to look at something and realize, oh, I was told that was true, but it's actually not true. I was told that was not true, but that was actually true. And I remember I actually spent some time with someone who does complex trauma therapy.

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And I walked through my story and I'll never forget what she said. She said, Steve, I just need to reflect something back to you. Number one, you were a victim in this, your goodness, your innocence, it got played on. But number two, this is what I'm more fascinated by. Why are you drawn to narcissists? And I was like, whoa. 

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And I think some of the stuff I had to realize was, why am I drawn to certain places and certain people and certain systems and certain structures? And I think part of it is that it was a familiar position growing up. It became familiar. I knew how to navigate through that world, number one. But then I think too, as you start to untangle, you have to look at stuff in the most honest and true way. And if I did get played, which I feel like I did, I have to also honor the truth that someone thought that they could play me. That the perks would overshadow doing the harder right.

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And that my way of living and operating and people pleasing and fawning and living made me very susceptible to bet on, that I would stay complicit and silent. As I had to start to do that level of work, I realized, oh my goodness. That untangling, but then as you start to untangle that, there's stuff that's really beautiful there, but there's also work to be done. And so I think it was not just the untangling of all that’s bad. 

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It was really the untangling of, man, I let that person say that. And I believe that to be true about me and that it wasn't. And there's a great verse in Genesis: who told you that? God's saying that. And I remember Christine Cain saying that: Who told you that? And did God really say…? Who told you that? 

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And I just realized, I took some other people's words as gospel, and I had to untangle that. And just coming back to, oh, this is who I am. Broken and beautiful. This is who I am. And that was work. That was a lot of work.

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Alison Cook: And doing that work without shaming yourself, because you were the victim. And it's such a delicate nuance, tension, of, I was taken advantage of. I was wronged here, let's name what's true. Let's name what's true. And also that receive–how do I grow so that I don't lose that innocence and also don't let this happen again?

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To the best of your ability. What do I have to learn so that I can, and it's such a delicate balance from not shaming or blaming yourself, but also just looking deep within. That's brave work. I loved that reframing of the “who told you?” not from a shaming place, but from a loving place, Steve. “Who told you this?”

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Steve: Yeah, I think that's really good. Yeah. Alison I just realized, sometimes the speed of our life, we don't get to slow down to actually stop and reflect. And sometimes when we do, we often feel that shame. And I think part of that process was just realizing–one of my mantras was like, no shame, no shade, like just consent to reality and just hold it.

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And let's just turn it around, almost like it's a diamond, to see what reflects. To see different colors and get curious. And there were days that it was harder. I felt like, man, did I mess up? Wow. There were days and I had to catch myself and be like, all right, that was enough. That was seven seconds of shame. This is not helpful to the conversation. 

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What can we learn? What can we be curious about? What's the deeper work that can be done? So that was a helpful piece, but it is so easy for that shame to creep in and take over.

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Alison Cook: You talk about a quote that's about that liminality. I talk about “places in between” in I Shouldn’t Feel This Way to do that work of, I do feel this way. I have to have places to metabolize it. He said it so beautifully. He said, hope is the liminal vulnerability that invites us into a place where we show up as our whole selves, and admit we are limited. 

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We can't undo the past. We can't make people change their minds. You're holding the tension of your whole self, what you have control over, what you don't, what you can't change, what you can. There was so much wisdom in that. 

Steve, it seems as if there was a precision to the naming, because what is so beautiful about the book is that you are pretty honest. You're not, to use your word, bright-siding things about what happened to you. It's also not a book of hopelessness or cynicism.

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And I think that's a really hard balance to strike. You said something really profound. You said, Willow didn't hurt me; five people did. And that reframe seemed really important to you in figuring out how to contextualize what happened. Can you talk to me a little bit more about that?

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Steve: Yeah. I found myself just getting asked all the time. How can you still love the church after what happened? And people talking about Willow really badly. 

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Alison Cook: Yeah.

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Steve: I struggled with it and I had to really wrestle. Am I bright-siding here? Am I just trying to preserve and protect? But honestly I started to realize, I'm not mad at the sophomore in high school who went to the youth group. I'm not frustrated with many of the staff. I'm not. I loved my job. I loved my life. I loved what I got.

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I felt a connection with those people and those people, I believe, felt a connection with me. God was working. I knew it. And as I started to really sit with it, I'm like, it's not Willow. It's these five people. And that reframed it for me to realize, oh, my work is to ensure that I'm doing the reparative work to not allow the seeds of unforgiveness to take root in my heart, in my soul, where bitterness and resentment can take over. 

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And that's hard, because every day, there are oftentimes reminders of the faces of these five people. And I have to remember the process of forgiveness. And it's always at work trying to make sure that my heart is ready. That if that day comes where I can break bread, that potentially a miracle can happen. I don't know if that will ever happen, but my work isn't to control whether they show up.

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My work is to say, will I be ready and not violate my soul, but from an integrated and healthy and beloved place by Jesus and the kingdom of God, I can engage that. I didn't want to, because you get energy from being angry, you get energy from being bitter, you get energy from anger-fantasizing, like “If I saw one of them, this is what I would say!”. There is a high that you get from that.

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You don't get the same thing with forgiveness. You get to be a little bit lighter and freer, but it doesn't have that same energy if that makes sense.

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Alison Cook: Oh yeah. Yeah. You get the daily, you get more of the peace, you get more of the hope. It's so interesting as you describe that process of compartmentalizing, and I see this with folks who've been through traumas. Compartmentalizing those five people that are the real root of the anger, of the bitterness, of the resentment, which paradoxically allows you to be restored with all the folks where there isn't that hurt.

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It's such a paradox that by really drilling down on what was hurtful and the people that really are like, no, that wasn't okay, and maybe I'll work out through a process of forgiveness, but I will also bracket them in my brain as folks who are untrustworthy.

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Steve: Yep.

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Alison Cook: It also paradoxically freed you to have more peace with the larger story of your time at Willow.

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Steve: Yes. 100%. And I did an intensive with my therapist and I realized that, and I know that you're familiar and IFS, I feel like I learned about it from your first book and I started to really begin to engage with it. But I realized the feeling of powerlessness would come, the firefighter would come out and just get that fire out. Don't ever feel that, go buy something, go eat something, go experience something, go preach, go work, do something, don't feel that. Or protect yourself at all costs.

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Alison Cook: Yeah.

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Steve: But oftentimes I didn't know how to sit with the powerlessness, and then choose a more integrated, embodied path forward.  And that is what the gift of almost Sunday brings. The gift of Easter and resurrection is that There is something on the other side of the betrayal; there is something on the other side of the grief.

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There is something on the other side and I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. And yet the forming work that came continues to surprise me.

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Alison Cook: It's just, oh man, the part of me that just grieves with you, I think also being a writer and knowing the labor that at the very least of all of that, those two losses of two books you had to let go of. I'm so grateful for this book because it shows the fruit of the journey for you these last three years. And it's so rare, Steve, for us to see examples of people who are naming what's hard, who are being relentlessly honest about the truth and also simultaneously the process of staying hopeful for lack of a better word. 

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Hopeful that it's not a binary and actually, the more you name what's hard and the more you quarantine it out, the more you actually can find hope. What would you say, Steve, to that younger 38 year old you now, if you could sit with him for a moment, who's about to go into this.

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Steve: It's gonna be okay. It’s gonna be okay. The whole first half of life energy and second half of life energy, there's something that's so real about it. But there's a band called Brand New and they have this song. They're not a Christian band, but they have this song called Jesus Christ. And they say this line, Jesus Christ, Jesus, what did you do those three days that you were dead? Because this problem is going to last more than the weekend. 

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And I think that kind of sense of, for some of us, Friday is going to be a lot of days, just the grief. And the Saturday of Breathe, that might be a lot of days and a lot of seasons. But Sunday does come. And it doesn't come the way that we thought it would come, or that we hoped it would come. It usually surprisingly comes in different ways. And I think I just realized it's not gonna be what I thought it was gonna be. But it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay.

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Alison Cook: It's a powerful example. I love that. Going into that place in between, that Easter Saturday, for a prolonged period of time and letting it do its work so that now, in good time, you're able to tell your story. You're able to tell it in a way that will bless people, will honor folks who've been through betrayals, who've been through hard times, who need to grieve and who also don't want to get swallowed up by it, but want to come out the other side.

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The last question I would ask is, what would you say to those listening who've been through betrayal? Or who are in the midst of processing through betrayal? Maybe it's the same thing.

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Steve: Yeah I think that the grief journey, I think that Friday, Saturday, Sunday, just became a, grief is Friday, breathe is Saturday, receive is Sunday. It became a healthy mantra, but I had to honor what comes up when Friday shows up, and your Friday is when you are in grief.

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You're like, how could this happen? And then Saturday is you actually trying to trick your brain to go, I can get through this. I can get through this. I'll figure this out. I know what to do. And then Sunday's just the reality that, oh, you can't get through it. But you will walk with grief. And it will be a part of your story, but it won't have the same amount of energy that it once had. 

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I'm not saying it's going to be easy. You're going to hold it. It's going to be a companion that you will carry with you. And it will shape you and form you and it will also surprise you. That's the reality that, for anyone who's walking through it, it's okay to name if it's Friday, or if it's Saturday, but just hold on to the reality that in a way that doesn't make sense, God will surprise you because Sunday's coming.

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Alison Cook: Thank you for pastoring us through this with this book. I think it's going to help so many people. How can people find you? How can they find the book?

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Steve: Yeah. Thank you. Stevecarter.org, @SteveRyanCarter on Instagram and Twitter or X or whatever we call it. And then the book is everywhere books are sold. Feel free to reach out. I always love to connect with people. 

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And Alison, I just have to say, your voice is so refreshing when I read your words. I listen to the podcast and I hear you, and then I get the chance to read, and I hear you and it's your ability to take such thoughtful concepts and make them accessible. There were moments where your first book, it was with me in the desert. And so I just thank you. I think for so many of us who would listen to you on the regular, thank you for consistently being that truth teller, that guide and a reminder that it's going to be alright. It's going to be alright.

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Alison Cook: I appreciate that. I'm so grateful that, I guess it's it's cliche, it's Mr. Rogers who said, in the midst of so much dismay, look for the helpers. Look for the people. And you're one of those people. Reading this book, I was honestly, Steve, going into this book grieving, not in my own personal life, but some of the tragic fallout of our culture that we're seeing in the church culture.

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And I read this book and I thought, what a gift in the middle of it. What a gift. I am so sorry that you had to go through it and I'm so grateful for the fruit that you allow God to bring in your life through it. Just so grateful for you. Just so grateful for your work, for these words, for your life, for the goodness that you've allowed to continue to come through your story.

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Steve: you. That means the world, coming from you.

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Alison Cook: Yeah, so Steve, are there any pre-order items for folks if they want to go ahead and get the book now?

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Steve: Yeah, our books actually come out on the same day, which I'm so excited about. It's such an honor. If people pre-order and they go to SteveCarter.org, I wrote something called the evening Psalms, which is like a devotional of 150 Psalms, so they can get that for free.

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And then we'll have small group curriculum that we've created for conversations for people to have. So they're on my website. There's a bunch of little freebies if people choose to pre-order and submit the receipt number.

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Alison Cook: I'm so glad because I guarantee you, whatever you've put out will be helpful to folks. So go get that, and read Grieve, Breathe, Receive.

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Do you ever feel like your spirit is broken? Do you feel like you can't put yourself back together despite your best efforts? Please do not miss this episode. My guest, Christopher Cook, has such powerful words about a broken spirit and how it’s different from (but related) to depression and burnout. We also dig into a real time discussion of the dark night of the soul. This conversation connected so many dots for me, and I cannot wait for you to hear it.

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Here’s what we cover:

1. The painful circumstances that nearly broke Christopher's spirit

2. Recovering from survival mode

3. What is a broken spirit?

4. Chris’s experience of a dark night of the soul

5. The true meaning of surrender

6. How to support someone going through a dark night of the soul

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Additional Resources:

• Win Today with Christopher Cook‍
• Healing What You Can't Erase: Transform Your Mental, Emotional, and Spiritual Health from the Inside Out by Christopher Cook‍‍‍
• @wintodayChris on Instagram‍
• healingwhatyoucanterase.com‍
• DrAlisonCook.com/resources‍
• Proverbs 18:14‍
• US Depression rates from Gallup‍
• Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross‍
• The Critical Journey: Stages in the Life of Faith by Janet Hagberg and Robert Guelich‍
• Psalm 51:17
• ‍Psalm 51:6
• ‍John 8:31-32‍
• John 11; The Death of Lazarus‍
• 2 Corinthians 10:3-6

‍

‍Related Episodes:

• Episode 97: I Shouldn't Feel This Anxious—Insights on Trauma & Healing with Monique Koven
• Episode 98: I Shouldn’t Feel Alone in My Grief—Why Your Grief Matters & the #1 Most Important Support For Those Who Are Grieving

‍

‍Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Get 40% off your first order of Sundays. Go to SundaysForDogs.com/BESTOFYOU or use code BESTOFYOU at checkout.
• Head to factormeals.com/bestofyou50 and use code bestofyou50 to get 50% off!
• Go to AquaTru.com and enter code BESTOFYOU at checkout to get 20% OFF any AquaTru purifier!
• Go to thrivemarket.com/bestofyou for 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift!
• Make the switch and build a starter kit. 15% off AND free shipping when you buy a Notes starter kit at notescandle.com/bestofyou.‍

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript:

Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I am so glad you are here today for this episode.

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It's the third episode in the “I Shouldn't Feel This Way” series. We have two more to go. So this is the middle one and it is good. The whole conversation took a left turn about halfway through and got really real. It’s real time about a topic that I know so many of you have resonated with, related to the dark night of the soul. 

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We talked about it in episode 77. It makes an appearance here, and my guest talks very candidly about his very current experience in it. And because he shared so openly and so vulnerably, we went into this real time conversation where we were teasing out some terms in a really nuanced way.

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I'm so grateful for this conversation. I had a huge aha moment as I connected the dots of some of the work I'm trying to do related to this idea of surrender. About halfway through, we talk about that. There's so much in this episode and I came away with so much. I can't wait for you to hear about it. 

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In this whole series, we are naming hard things because I believe when we name things, it sets us on a path toward getting the help and the healing and the clarity we need. If you're resonating with any of the things we've named in this series so far, whether it be a broken spirit, a dark night of the soul, we touch on depression in this episode, we talked about grief and trauma in the last two episodes in this series, if these namings are resonating with you, if you're like, I think that's similar to what I'm experiencing, be sure to seek support in that journey. 

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We talk a lot in each of these episodes about various paths to seeking support, whether it's a therapist, whether it's a spiritual director, a pastor, a small group, safe people in your life, whether you might need to consult with a psychiatrist or a medical professional, please reach out for support.

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Toward that end, I want to remind you of some resources available to you. Number one, you can go back to episode 71 called “Do I need a therapist?”, where I walk you through really practical tools to figure out if you need to see a therapist and how to go about finding one.

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You can also find a lot of resources on my website, DrAlisonCook.com/resources. There are links and resources there to help you get connected with therapists and support groups. So please check out those resources. 

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Naming what's hard and what's going on in your life is a huge step toward getting the help that you need. And once you have a name for something, you can take this information to that other person and say, hey, this is what I think is going on. Would you come alongside me as I journey through healing? 

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My guest says it several times in the episode today, and I want to highlight it up front: we heal through community. We need other people to come alongside us in our healing journey. So as you're listening, bear that in mind. I'm so grateful that you're here. And I'm so grateful for your commitment to this work of healing

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My guest today is Christopher Cook. We are not related, although we are often shelved together in the bookstores. And I so enjoy the opportunities that we get to connect on our work. Chris is a leadership coach and author and the host of the Win Today podcast. He focuses on transformation and wholeness. 

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His brand new book is called Healing What You Can't Erase: Transform Your Mental, Emotional, and Spiritual Health from the Inside Out. And there's such good stuff in this book. Chris talks really openly about his own painful experiences and the toll it took on his own body, even as he was doing everything in his own power to try to survive.

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He gives such a powerful illustration about the broken spirit that can result from all the years of striving, of performing, of trying to survive really hard things and how naming that reality was the first step toward freedom.

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I'm so thrilled to bring you this rich episode with my friend, Christopher Cook.

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***

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Alison Cook: Chris, I loved the book. There's so much in it. There's so much good psychology. There's so much biblical wisdom. This whole podcast is all about integration. It's my goal, as we've talked, to bring good psychology to faith-based people because I believe the two go hand in hand, and you're doing that in this book. 

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I think it's so important for people to know how to differentiate from this sort of self-help gospel–my books are always in Christian self-help and I imagine yours are–what does that even mean, and how do we tease that out from true Holy Spirit-led transformation? But tell us, before we dive into that, set the stage, you do it so beautifully in the book, about your story, about what led you to going on this path so deeply. It came out of your own personal pain.

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Chris Cook: It really did, Alison, and what a great place to start. I reached an inflection point in my own journey of pain where I realized, I can't do this anymore. And that was in late October 2014, again, where I reached this place of saying, life is moving forward, and I am not. I think a lot of our friends with us today might be facing the same feeling, at least subconsciously. 

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I'm looking around me, and it feels like everyone's moving forward, but somehow my wheels are spinning in the mud so to speak, and we can dive into that, but let me rewind to get us to the place of October 2014. So in 1994 I was 11 and a half years old, and my mom was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, which is a medically incurable diagnosis. It's a terminal diagnosis. And at the time in the early nineties, my mom being a 37 year old Caucasian woman, it was such an anomaly because the disease at the time typically showed up in elderly black men.

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Doctors were baffled. They didn't know what to do. So they said here, you could do a stem cell transplant, or do nothing. And to fast forward through the story, she ended up finding a classically trained immunologist, a medical doctor in New York City, who had pancreatic cancer patients living 25 years past diagnosis.

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He proposed a form of alternative therapy and insurance didn't cover it, so a lot of life changes were had at that point, where the family's bills tripled, the income was cut in half, and she was on that program I'd say for 11, 12 years. In 2006, after experiencing what she thought was severely strained discs in her back, it turned out myeloma was spreading throughout her body. It had metastasized. 

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She was given 30 days to live, and from 2006 to 2011, she was in and out of the hospital repeatedly. It was chaos around the clock. I want to back up real fast to say, amidst all of this, Alice, my sister, and I grew up in a very safe and stable, faith-filled environment. We had incredible parents. Both of our parents were professional counselors. The environment was very safe and stable for us while the trauma was unfolding. 

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So we almost lost her again in surgery in 2011. And then in 2012, in November, the day before Thanksgiving, November 21st, she took her last breath. I didn't get to say goodbye. It was really traumatic because the journey with her was 18 and a half years. Nine months after that, the state of complex post traumatic stress in my own body hit fever pitch and my body crashed. I was diagnosed with relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis nine months after her death.

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I'm not sure I wanted to live by Christmas of 2013, Alison, and I never thought about acting on those thoughts. I was having 20 severe panic attacks every single day. Oh goodness. By October 2014, which is where I started my story, I had reached this inflection point where I said, I can't do this. I can't do this. And it was a short time of prayer. 

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I wouldn't consider it going into a time of prayer. I said, Lord, you got to help. I'm done. I'm exhausted. You gotta heal me. And he didn't respond with, “Great. I see. You're healed”. He responded with a question: “Chris, what do you want me to do for you”? And I knew at that moment, Alison, I had been set up.

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That cracked open the door to transformation, which we can dive into, but I'll hit pause there and throw it back to you.

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Alison Cook: Yeah, you write about the details of that leg of your journey so powerfully, bringing the complex into the complex trauma. Trying to care for your mom, trying to be present to your family, all the realities, the financial realities, and you were young. This was all the way into, I think, when you were about 30.

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Chris Cook: Yeah, exactly. My mom died 18 days after my 30th birthday.

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Alison Cook: You talk in the book, and I think this is so interesting, especially for people of faith, that you were in some ways. a master of healthy habits during that time. You talk about having a playbook.

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Chris Cook: Yes.

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Alison Cook: Tell me a little bit about that. It's not like you were completely not coping during that time, but tell me a little bit about what it looked like for you to cope in your twenties as you were leading up to this inflection point. What were you doing to cope during that time?

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Chris Cook: While my mom was still alive, I'd say the reflex was survival. I created a level of stability and routine in my life because everything else was out of control. And I'd say, in part due to my temperament, because I'm a type A, very driven high achiever, I like things in order. I don't like surprises. I don't love change. Routine is my favorite word. 

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In my twenties, it was creating systems for everyday life, and the systems created stability. But if I'm being honest, it was a very shaky foundation because I thought I could control life, but that is the biggest misnomer. We don't have control over the circumstances of life. And I thought I did. I think what caused more pain was the fact that when everything crashed, my whole paradigm about the fact that I thought I could control fell apart, in addition to the circumstances falling apart themselves.

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Alison Cook: Yeah.

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Chris Cook: Even to what you alluded to, through my journey of grieving, I still endeavored to create systems. As you said, the playbook for becoming healthy and even after my MS diagnosis, I had this playbook of how I would become healthy again.

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If I'm being honest, the motivation, Alison, for all of that was fear, not security in my identity in Christ. The motivation was, “I have to stay alive”. This is survival. It's fear. Fear was driving my maniacal drive to put the quote unquote playbook together. It wasn't wholeness. The fear was keeping my nervous system dysregulated, and I was in a state of chronic stress.

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Alison Cook: This is so interesting to me, Chris, because the system, as you call it, the playbook that you were doing, my guess is from the outside, didn't look that bad. Those things that you were doing, whether it's daily prayer or exercise or whatever these things are obviously good things. That's what gets so conflated. 

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The system itself you were doing great at, but you said it was the motivation under the system at the time the system was containing the fear, not creating a healing place for the fear.

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Chris Cook: You nailed it, Alison. That's it. The drive to fix my body, to fix my mind, to create stability again in my life was because of the trauma and the severity of the trauma. And I said, I can't do this. I cannot continue to wake up like this. And the fear-motivation kept my body in stress.

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Alison Cook: Yeah.

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Chris Cook: Every bit of effort that I exerted was from a fear-motivation, which immediately put me in a limited capacity.

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Alison Cook: Reading your book, it almost felt like recovery from a socially acceptable form of coping. When the bottom fell out in that moment of inflection and you said, I came to the end of myself, I couldn't do this. My support structures went away. 

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You think about someone that maybe has an addiction that's unhealthy, where they have to give up the thing, but the thing is actually bad. And yet in your case, that's where I want to tease this out with you, you had to give up the thing that wasn't actually a bad thing. Does that make sense?

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Chris Cook: Sure does.

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Alison Cook: But you first had to face something, Chris, and I love how you drilled down on this in the book, and it's a phrase we don't use enough. You call it a broken spirit.

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Tell me a little bit about that. There's grief. There's all these diagnostic labels. It was like, I'm crushed in spirit. Tell me a little bit about what that meant to you to realize that.

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Chris Cook: This is perhaps the linchpin, which excites me because my prayer is that we will awaken to the reality of the presence of a broken spirit. In a lot of cases, perhaps even from a self-help perspective, we approach life and recovery and therapy and trauma from a mind-body perspective only. 

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Unintentionally, we negate the fact that we are spirit, soul, and body, not body-mind. And scripture, as the anchor to my life, tells me that a crushed spirit, who can bear? Here's the picture I want to paint for folks which might help bring clarity to this. Because some are saying, Chris, what do you mean by spirit? Isn't that the same thing as the soul? 

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Some theologians even argue that the immaterial is one, but we won't go there. Here's the picture: if our bodies were a boat, the soul is our desire, our seat of emotions; the mind, the will; the emotions, the sail, because the sail sets the direction of the boat. The spirit is the wind and the driving force that gives life to the sail. 

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So if the boat is sitting at a port, but there's no wind in the sail, it's not going anywhere. The Hebrew word for spirit is “ruach”, which means inner drive, breath, wind, force. I'm not talking about the Holy Spirit, I'm talking about the human spirit–and the life of the spirit gives life to the sail, and sets the body in motion.

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The broken spirit, when it is collapsed, when our inner drive for life is collapsed, no amount of willpower, self-help, or good intentions can overcome the fact that the deepest part of our being is not soul, it's spirit, according to Scripture. So I want to address that first and recognize, oh, I've got to get that spirit healed by the power of the Holy Spirit and a bunch of other great modalities, so that my mind and my will, my emotions, my inner drive, the intentions of my life can be reset. So that my body can be in motion toward whatever I'm called to do.

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Alison Cook: Chris, I love the metaphor. Prior to this inflection point, prior to this moment of reckoning, it's almost like you were working on the boat. You had this really vibrant, huge functioning boat, but it literally could not sail because, it's heartbreaking when you put it that way, because your spirit was crushed. It didn't matter how hard you worked to get yourself together.

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Chris Cook: That's it, Alison.

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Alison Cook: And that's heartbreaking. Because how many people, with the self-help, and I hear that in your book, you're pretty blunt about the self-help movement not addressing the spirit. It's so demoralizing. How did you realize, oh my gosh, I have to take a different approach here/?

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Chris Cook: It was honestly the investment of time in the Scriptures and getting the clear blueprint for how we were created. So I'll set it up this way: we are the creation of a Creator; in order to understand how I function best, I gotta go to the Creator and study my design. For instance, I have an iPhone sitting right here and let's imagine for folks joined us, here's the metaphor. 

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If I didn't understand the full function of how this was designed and how it was made to function at an optimal state, I could say oh, this is a doorstop. It's heavy enough. It'll stop my door from closing automatically–and it will. But am I using this according to design?

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No, so therefore I go to the Scriptures and I say, okay Scripture is clear about the fact that we are created with spirit, soul, and body. We are spirit, we have a soul, we live in a body. And scripture is very clear also about the state of a broken spirit and what it will do to a human being when that experience is present in their lives. 

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For instance, Solomon said it in Proverbs 18:14, a paraphrase of it, basically that the strong spirit of a person, the strong inner drive, wind, breath, life force can sustain him or her in bodily pain and sickness. But then he asks this question: who can withstand a broken spirit, a broken mind, inner drive, a broken life force, courage, animation, vigor? Those are all words used to describe the ruach. 

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So what that tells me is that my best efforts, on my best day, in my best ideas, will never overcome the subconscious broken state of my human spirit, whose drive for life is gone. Let's put a, I don't know, perhaps a modern term on it. I think it's close to burnout, but it's way more extreme than burnout. I think it's like languishing, but it's more extreme. 

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This is not a difficult season. This is an utter state of defeat and hopelessness and lifelessness. I think I read a stat from Gallup the other day which was collected in 2023 and the state of depression amongst Americans is at fever pitch levels right now. So it could be part of that too, but it is the chronic unrelenting state of lifelessness. And it is so insidious that after we live with it for so long, we don't even recognize it for what it is. We think, ah, it's me.

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Alison Cook: Yeah.

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Chris Cook: It's me. And we learn to cope around that. And because we cope around it, we don't address it. And because we don't address it, we don't get healed from it.

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Alison Cook: It's a powerful naming. That's all we try to do on this podcast–name. My next book that we'll talk about next week is about the power of naming, and I hear that it was very important to you. It wasn't depression. It wasn't grief. There were components of those things. It was a broken spirit. How do you distinguish it from depression? I would assume there's overlap.

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Chris Cook: Sure. Because I'm not a medical professional nor a professional therapist, I don't want to put a ton of weight on my answer to your question. At the same time, I'm going to give it my best. I think it has notes of depression, notes of burnout, notes of hopelessness, notes of defeat, but it is all encompassing.

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I wake up and it's there. It's not, I wake up and then something happens and it shows up. No. I wake up and it's there. I go to sleep, it's there. My passion and drive for things that I once enjoyed is gone. I think that's synonymous with the experience of burnout. But as I said, I think it's more systemic than that because the broken spirit affects our body too.

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Alison Cook: The other term that's floating through my mind that we talk about on the podcast is dark night of the soul. Are you familiar with that? It's from St. John of Cross.

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Chris Cook: Alison, I'm walking through that right now. I have been since May of 2023. This is wild that you mentioned this, and you and I are going to talk about this at length, maybe on my show, because I am fascinated by this. I had Father Ronald Rollheiser on my show a few months ago, and Rollheiser and I talked about the dark night of the soul.

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So I'm reading right now, St. John of the Cross's book on the dark night. I am reading Janet Hagberg and Robert Gulick's book, The Critical Journey, synonymous with the dark night of the soul. Pete Scazzaro also talks about that. But, oh gosh, what's interesting is Father Rollheiser told me that in his experience, the dark night of the soul is not like psychological depression. He said, when a person is going through a dark night of the soul, it's not like psychological depression. When they walk into a room, they bring life to a room.

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Alison Cook: Yeah.

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Chris Cook: I'm not yet there. All I am saying, though, is that it is a very present experience for me, and it's really painful.

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Alison Cook: Yeah. I appreciate the honesty about that. I think again, these namings, broken spirit, dark night of the soul, they're scary. It can be hard. But also, I so appreciate you walking us through it because you can feel crazy if you go to a therapist and they give you an antidepressant.

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Chris Cook: You nailed it.

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Alison Cook: It doesn't mean you're losing your faith. That's the other thing people can assume. There is a spiritual despair, for lack of a better word, a spiritual hunger that we can go through with our trauma and all these other things, but it is distinctly spiritual. And I love that you're trying to tease this out. I'm with you in it. It's so important. 

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Chris Cook: This is a working theory for me. I'm still working this out and unpacking it and discovering. All I know is that a broken spirit for me has been different from the experience of the dark night of the soul. However, again, here we go with overlap. What are some things that might connote a dark night of the soul experience?

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The felt presence of the Lord is all of a sudden absent. My hunger for the Scriptures is absent. There could be the presence of lifelessness and purposelessness. The dark night of the soul in my experience here, I'm 10 and a half months into it right now, I'm learning how to hold both joy and grief in the same hand for stuff.

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It's been very purging, very cleansing, very hard, and it's nothing that I've done to bring this on. And maybe folks listening would resonate with this. Imagine you get hit in multiple domains of your life all at once. That's what I've been walking through. Again, it feels similar to the broken spirit. This is interesting. I'm actually thinking about this in real time as we're talking. Let me tease this out. 

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I think about Psalm 51:17 where David says to the Lord, the sacrifice acceptable to the Lord is a broken spirit. And this is after his confrontation with Nathan, regarding his adulterous behavior with Bathsheba and all of that. He says the sacrifice acceptable to the Lord is a broken spirit. 

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How many of us, Alison, unintentionally nurture that broken spirit like a little baby because it's the last thing we're holding on to. Because we're like, I can't let go of this. This is the last piece of my soul, and we're attached to it. And the Lord says, I won't reject it. I won't reject it. And we're like, yeah, but life has told me people are untrustworthy. And if we're really being honest, Lord, you are too. Both in the dark night experience and in the experience of the broken spirit, I think the next right move is surrender. 

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We could talk about that. I have a whole chapter about surrender in the book because that was the counterintuitive, anti-self-help move for me out of pain. It was not to try harder, but to give in. Which was surrender.

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Alison Cook: Yeah. And that, oh gosh. Okay. So this is very real time for both of us. There's so much of this in the book, but to have kind of the current understanding of what it's still like for you. I think that the term, surrender, is really powerful, what you said, and that's one of the distinguishing factors of whether there's a biochemical and medical thing going on. 

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There might be a component of surrender, but there's also a component of, I need to go get on antidepressant medication. We're delineating something pretty nuanced here in this case, where there is a spiritual root or a spiritual origin. It's that surrender, that I have to stop fighting.

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Tell me a little bit about what that was like for you. That gets back to the system that you had to let go of. How did that work for you?

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Chris Cook: Oh, you're such a good question asker. I love this. Okay surrender, because folks are saying, wait a minute, after all I've been through, now you're telling me to give up and surrender? That's actually not what I'm telling you to do. Surrender in my life was not giving up and saying whatever happens, happens.

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It was giving in. It was giving in to a process of confrontation of my own dysfunction, my own blind spots, the narratives that were keeping me stuck, the behavior patterns, etc. It was giving in to a process of confrontation that would, over time, in community and by the power of the Holy Spirit, lead to transformation. 

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I want to say that again because folks want to get a hold of this. Surrender is the next right thing to do; it is the anti-self-help thing to do, where self-help says, look down and try harder. We're saying, look up and out, and surrender. Surrender is giving in to community, because we heal in community, not alone. We heal in community. I'm going to give into a process of confrontation, looking in the mirror, so to speak, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

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Search me and know me, oh God, that would lead to a process of transformation. Now here's the key. Unlike self-help, transformation is not an overnight experience. Transformation happens daily and we will continue to experience transformation as long as we live. That's the big key for this. Surrender, confrontation, transformation. Surrender, confrontation, transformation. Change is hard. Transformation is painful. But, the pain of not changing is even worse.

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Alison Cook: Yeah. Yeah I'm listening to you and it reminds me, I had a friend in college who had a lot of stuff and I didn't understand it at the time, but I remember she said, sometimes you have to let the ceiling fall. We work so hard to try to hold the ceiling up and sometimes, you have to let the ceiling fall.

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Chris Cook: I agree.

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Alison Cook: I love what you're saying. It's a giving-in. And it doesn't mean that you don't get up the next day and maybe take a walk and maybe do some of the things we know are healthy to do, but there's something different in your spirit. The reason why you're doing it is different. 

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Chris Cook: I have to give him access. He says, the sacrifice acceptable to the Lord is a broken spirit. What does that mean? I have to give him access to the most broken vulnerable place of the core of my being, the place of woundedness. That is really risky business, especially after repeated adversity. Because adversity, Alison, is so loud. Adversity shouts louder than the still and small. Adversity shouts, where's your God now?

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Alison Cook: I know. And shame. You talk a lot about how the enemy goes after us with it. I hadn't made this connection until now, but as I'm listening to you, I'm realizing that's what I'm trying to do. We talked about this with The Best of You, that you and I have so much synergy in our work.

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There's so much in your book, Healing What You Can't Erase, so many valuable resources. But it's interesting that one thing that you said is what I'm trying to do with when we say, “I shouldn't feel this way. The surrender is: I do feel this way.

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Chris Cook: Bingo. Bingo.

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Alison Cook: That's what we're trying to do–to go, I do feel this way. I do. I can't fix it. And that is paradoxically what opens the door to what you're saying.

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Chris Cook: That's confession. That's true confession. It's saying, here's the truth. Here's the unfiltered truth because He won't deal with us in the false. Behold, you desire truth in the inner being, the psalmist wrote. Alison, this is going to mess with people's paradigm, and I hope it does a little bit because too often as believers, we approach the Lord with this sugary coating of religious dressing, and it's not true.

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He knows the thoughts and intentions of our hearts. He is a perfect holy God, and I believe we are not to approach him with pride or accusation. We have to come to him in honesty and in truth. Jesus said, if you abide in my word, you'll know the truth and the truth will set you free. Now this is another anti self-help move. There is a difference between truth and true.

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Alison Cook: I love that. I love that. Tell us a little bit more about that. That was good. 

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Chris Cook: So all of us experience circumstances in life that are true to us. Undoubtedly true. Fill in the blank with any one of your adversities. That's true. No one's denying that, but our perceptions and our ability to read our “true” is often so close-up, we miss the forest for the trees. And therefore, in the surrender, in the giving-in, not only do we allow the hand of the Holy Spirit to redeem, to reshape, to heal, but we gain perspective when we surrender our true to His truth.

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That changes narratives. That changes perspectives, because this is not about changing our minds. This is about changing our mindset. The whole default way by which we look at life and ourselves and circumstances–only he can do that. That's the change of heart. I can't change my heart. I need him to do that.

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This is why, Lord, have your way. Lord, here's my broken spirit. Lord, here is the very thing that I thought I could never let go of. Here it is,, and I'm really tentative to give this to you, but here we go.

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Alison Cook: Okay. So to go back to, there's so much, we're going to run out of time and I want to get into the healing, but you know what, people are gonna have to buy the book. I really want to understand this broken spirit because I think it's a profound offering. I think what you're saying, Chris, is in your twenties when you built this system, it was to keep you from having to face the broken spirit. Is that it?

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Chris Cook: Oh, I love this, Alison. You're so good at this. You're a therapist. This is why. I'm getting free therapy right now. Alison, here it is: because if I could build a quote unquote bulletproof system, guess what I did not have to do? I did not have to surrender. I did not have to lean on and trust in and rely upon someone else. Because life and adversity had said, trust only yourself, Chris.

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So if I crafted this little greenhouse or this echo chamber of beliefs inside myself and systems and strategies, which were all decent, like it was a good try. I didn't have to surrender my heart. Then, if I didn't have to surrender my heart, I couldn't be wounded again, and I was exhausted of being wounded, which means if I could self-protect and self-promote because of shame narratives, and could keep my heart at bay inside myself, I didn't have to get hurt again.

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But guess what? I was going to be a prisoner of my own life.

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Alison Cook: That reckoning of, oh my gosh, I have a broken spirit, as painful as that is, and it makes sense that it's evolved into this spiritual dark night of the soul, is actually the path to freedom.

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Chris Cook: Yes, ma'am.

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Alison Cook: It was what was true. It was what was true. And yes, it brings up all, By the way, all of the time you're doing the system, you're a Christian. We get trapped in even our own Christian systems.

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Chris Cook: 100%. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because I could compartmentalize the fact that again, I didn't have to lean on and trust in and rely upon Him with my whole heart, with my whole mind, with all of my strength. I'm going to put myself on the block here in a way, because of my temperament, my wiring, the strength of my wiring overextended and under stress became a liability.

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When I was provoked and adversity was so loud in my life, when I heard about leaning upon the Lord, trusting in Him with all my heart, with all my mind, I was really keeping the weight of one foot on the ground myself, so that if for some reason the rug got pulled, I could still maintain footing.

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Alison Cook: Yeah.

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Chris Cook: It's trusting in and relying upon my own strength, and Alison, I found out so quickly, while I might be able to change my behavior, I could never, ever change my heart, which is what I needed more than anything. The healing of a broken spirit and the healing of a broken heart.

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Alison Cook: I want to ask you before we close, because I did a podcast episode on the spiritual dark night of the soul last fall, and I think I got more questions. I'm really intrigued by this naming of the broken spirit. Chris, what is helpful to you as you're going through it, from other people who love you and what doesn't help? And I'm putting you on the spot.

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How can we support each other through this, so that we don't feel alone, so that we don't feel like there's something wrong with us? Because I think that's also where the enemy gets a foothold and where we don't want to face it or name it or feel like I have a broken spirit, because then how other people aren't going to know what to do with that.

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So how do we support each other? What have you found helpful? What have you found not helpful in your journey?

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Chris Cook: Yeah, what's not helpful are platitudes and pat answers. Let's go at this from the grief side of things, because any time we experience change in life, there's loss, and that loss has to be acknowledged, named, space has to be held, we have to give time to grieve it, whatever that is. I think about Jesus when Lazarus died; Jesus was the only one who could change that circumstance in an instant.

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And he didn't preach a sermon about how all things work together for the good. He showed up, he wept. And I think we need to take his cue. We need to show up, we need to shut up. It's presence over platitude. So that's what we can offer others.

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From our own end of things, we have to recognize that healing requires community. The enemy thrives in deception and in isolation. They go hand in hand together. When we're isolated, we're baited to believe lies. And when we believe a lie, we empower the lie, even if it's a lie, even if it's untruth. We got to heal in community. I'm a huge believer in mentor, spiritual director, pastor, counselor.

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In fact, I got a hoodie last week from Jackie Hill Perry and her husband, Preston Perry. And the hoodie says: Jesus and therapy. I'm like, yep, that's it. I'm a big believer in that. We need community to heal. That's where the ability to name our pain is given life, and in naming our pain, we almost offload it from our soul.

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Its strength is diminished in a way, when I can say to a mentor, to a counselor, to a pastor, I'm really struggling to believe this, whatever this is right now. This is how I'm feeling and we don't have to qualify it like, oh, forgive me for what I'm about to say. Or oh, I know this isn't going to sound rational. 

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I need to be able to have spaces where we can name our pain. We'll sort through it later, but that's what therapists and counselors and pastors and good mentors are for, because we heal in community. That, in a way, is similar to second Corinthians 10 where we're tearing down strongholds that are built in the mind.

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We're bringing again, true to truth. Community helps us see the truth for our true. Community is not there to invalidate what's true, but it is to say that truth is greater than true. 

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Alison Cook: Yes. It's true, and also I can help you see a bigger perspective.

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Chris Cook: I love that you said “and also” because I like to say “and also” more than but. Both fit. 

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Alison Cook: Also, it's so powerful. We need both. We need both. This is so good. It's so rich. I have two questions I want to ask you, Chris, what I ask all my guests, or at least most of them. I always say “all”, and then I realize that I sometimes forget, but I really want to ask you this one.

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What would you say to the younger you, that 20 something you, what would you want to say to him with all that you know now? If you could go back and spend time with him as who you are now, what would you want him to know?

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Chris Cook: You're so on point right now. I talked to Curt Thompson about this for an hour and in a puddle of tears, I apologized to that 20-year-old version of me because, back to where we started, because of fear and the reflex to avoid pain and get out of trauma, I made him rush through grief too quickly. I made the eight and 11-year-old me rush through grief too quickly. 

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I would say to him, please forgive me. I'm so sorry. I didn't know any better. I was hurting so badly and I had a gaping hole in my soul and I just, it was traumatic, and I wanted that thing healed. I moved too quickly, Alison. I would go back to the 20 year old, 22 year old, 30 year old and say, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I rushed those versions of me through the process of trying to get through pain, but I think that's reflexive to many of us because we hate pain. 

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Yeah, that's what I would say: “I'm so sorry. Forgive me for that”.

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Alison Cook: Wow. That's a powerful illustration of how we forgive. And also it's a younger part of you that stepped in to help you survive that didn't know better. So there's that self-forgiveness, that self-compassion. I did the best I could. And also it was too soon, too fast, too rushed.

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Chris Cook: Alison, it left me battle weary. I reached this place last summer, 2023, and I realized–I'm exhausted. Oh my, I'm exhausted. And I did a bunch of inner healing and therapy and we're unpacking all of that right now. I did some bilateral stimulation to help get stuff unstuck from my nervous system and, oh gosh.

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I have compassion for myself. So here's the thing, and maybe folks would want to hear this too. Let's say someone, one of our friends, is resonating with what I said about forgiving that earlier version of you. You don't heap on condemnation to the present version of you for that.

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And I'm figuring that out in real time because my type A personality, my Enneagram One inner critic says, you piece of crap, Chris. You suck. Why did you do that? And, ha, and then it heaps on shame all the more and I'm saying no. Holy Spirit, I need you to drive this ship. Because I need truth for my true. 

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Alison Cook: Man it's real. It's, I just, man, I honor you.

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Chris Cook: Thanks, my friend.

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Alison Cook: I honor you in this journey. I honor what you've been through. I honor what you're trying to heal. I want to say that I appreciate that you're giving others some language who are going through this too,

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Chris Cook: Yeah, I hope so.

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Alison Cook: This is the last question I usually ask and it feels apropos, Chris, as we're talking about the both-and–what is bringing out the best of you right now?

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Chris Cook: What a question. Realizing that I don't have to perform anymore. That's as real as I'll get. I don't have to perform anymore for belonging. I am okay to show up. I have mentors that I meet with every single Wednesday night locally here. And I tell them every week, his name is Dave, I talk about him in the book, I say to him nearly every week, your home is the safest place in my life because I can drive up and be. 

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And it's local, and it feels like home, and I don't have to perform, I don't have to write well, I don't have to host a podcast well, and it is in that same spirit. What's bringing out the best of me is recognizing that the best of me is found where I am honest with myself, honest with others, honest with the Lord, and I can enjoy it.

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The simple things of life, like grocery shopping, and going to get my car washed, and enjoying a good cup of tea and a book, and the best of me is creative. I'm a strategist at my core, but it is not from the motivation of fear and performance. It's from the motivation of, I'm resting as a son of God, beloved Abba's child, and I'm going to work not for identity but from it.

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The best of me shows up when I'm just me and I serve others best in that place too. I'm learning it. Oh goodness, Alison. That's such a fresh work in my life, a renewed work, but I'm committed to it.

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Alison Cook: That's beautiful. I thank you for giving us the best of you today. And again, in the book, there's so much; I see the talent and the giftedness and also in showing up so honestly, as you talk about the reality of the journey. It's going to help a lot of people, Chris. Tell people where they can find you and find your work and find the book.

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Chris Cook: Thank you so much. Healing What You Can't Erase: Transform Your Mental, Emotional, and Spiritual Health from the Inside Out is my new book. You can get it anywhere books are sold. It's available right now. I'm on social media, all platforms, @wintodayChris. My podcast, my weekly podcast, you're about to be a guest for the second time, is all about mental health, emotional health, and spiritual growth. 

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It's called Win Today with Christopher Cook. It's a weekly show and the website is wintoday.tv. For the book, go to healingwhatyoucanterase.com.

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Alison Cook: It's great. It's great work. You're putting good stuff into the world. And I love that you're learning how to put wind in your sails a little bit. Isn't that what matters the most? Thank you so much for sharing so honestly and openly and for all your hard work.

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Chris Cook: Thank you, my friend. You're a gift and so good at what you do. And I wanted to say to folks who joined us today, that if you have found yourself on this podcast, Dr. Alison Cook is a legend. Keep listening. Alison, you're so good at what you do. I am not only a guest, but I'm a subscriber and listener and I'm very thankful for your work.

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I can't wait to read your new book and you and I are hanging out later this week and we're gonna talk all about your books. So thanks again for the opportunity and blessings to everyone.

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What do you do when you're grieving? How do you support others through grief?

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Grief shows up in all of our lives—whether you’re grieving the loss of a person, a relationship, or a dream. We need each other to grieve well. It’s not something we were designed to do in isolation. My guest today, hospital chaplain, J.S. Park, is a powerful story teller and grief catcher. His viral posts about grief and death have revealed an incredibly important need. So many of us long to give voice to our grief in a culture that often rushes to push it aside. If you're feeling grief, or if you love someone who's grieving, please do not miss this episode.

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Here's what we cover:

1. Why parts of us fear grief

2. Why naming grief is so important

3. How sitting with loss impacted Joon's faith

4. The prayer Joon says before walking into a room

5. The #1 thing you can do for someone after a loss

6. How to set grief boundaries

7. How to support someone who is grieving & what *not* to do

8. The one word Joon wants for all of us

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Resources:

• Get Joon's new book, As Long As You Need
• Follow J. S. Park on Instagram ‍
• Preorder I Shouldn’t Feel This Way

Books by J.S. Park:‍

• The Voices We Carry: Finding Your One True Voice in a World of Clamor and Noise‍
• As Long As You Need: Permission to Grieve

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Related Episodes:

• Episode 97: I Shouldn't Feel This Anxious—Insights on Trauma & Healing with Monique Koven
• Episode 59: Finding Your People, Overcoming Past Hurt, & Deepening Friendships Through Intentional Community with Jennie Allen

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Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.
• Go to thrivemarket.com/bestofyou for 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift!
• Make the switch and build a starter kit. 15% off AND free shipping when you buy a Notes starter kit at notescandle.com/bestofyou.
• ‍Right now LMNT is offering a free sample pack with any purchase. The LMNT Sample Pack includes 1 packet of every flavor. This is the perfect offer for anyone interested in trying all of our flavors or who wants to introduce a friend to LMNT. Get yours at DrinkLMNT.com/BestofYou.

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript:

Alison Cook: Hey everyone. And welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I'm so glad you're here for this really special series called I Shouldn't Feel This Way. And today's guest is one of my favorite Instagram accounts to follow.

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I've learned so much from him. JS Park is a hospital chaplain who writes about grief and in many ways, the words that he writes on social media and in this brand new book coming out have taught me so much about the importance of honoring the process of grief and all the feelings that grief stirs up inside of us.

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This is an episode that is for everyone and anyone who's experienced loss or grief and is struggling to find language for it and can't figure out why you feel so alone in that experience of grief. And this episode is also for anyone who loves someone who's experiencing grief or going through a significant loss, because sometimes it's hard to know how to show up over the long haul for someone who's grieving a really hard loss.

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And we want to show up for others, but we don't know how. In this episode, we talk a lot about both sides of that. How do you grieve when you're the person going through grief, but also how do you show up for others in a helpful way, in a way that doesn't add to the feelings of isolation and pain that often come when we feel like we're grieving alone and when we feel like other people don't understand what we're going through?

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This episode has something for everyone. Make sure you take a moment to subscribe to The Best of You Podcast, wherever you get your podcast, so you don't miss any of these powerful episodes in this “I Shouldn't Feel This Way” series. 

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My guest today, JS Park, is a hospital chaplain, author, and online educator. For nearly 10 years, he's been an interfaith chaplain at a level one trauma center. He is a sixth degree black belt, ex-atheist, and Korean American. He's the author of The Voices We Carry: Finding Your One True Voice in a World of Clamor and Noise, as well as his brand new book that releases this week called As Long As You Need: Permission to Grieve. 

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You can pick up the book anywhere books are sold. It's a powerful dive Into the experience of grief from someone who has seen all manners of sickness and pain. Joon uses stories from his own life experience, as well as his many hours in the hospital, to unpack the various losses that lead to grief, loss of loved ones, loss of autonomy, loss of health, and even loss of plans and dreams. 

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I'm so thrilled to bring you my conversation with J. S. Park.

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***

JS Park: Thank you, Dr. Alison, for inviting me to your table. 

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Alison Cook: Oh, I'm so thrilled to have you here. I am. We've known each other online. We've done a video thing maybe once or twice, and we've never met in person, but there is such a comfort in your presence online, Joon, that I have loved. And I can feel even starting this interview with you, tears welling up in my eyes, and it's because what you do is give us permission to feel what we really feel. 

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This whole series that I've invited you to be a part of is leading up to my own book launch, I Shouldn't Feel This Way. We're looking for permission so often to feel what we really feel. And I thought a lot about it with this new book of yours, as I was reading it, about grief. I even thought about the title for this episode because I wanted to call it, “I shouldn't feel this way about grief”. 

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And as I was reading your book, I thought to myself, I don't know that we're afraid to feel grief. I think we're longing for permission to feel grief. And I think what we're afraid of is feeling alone in our grief. And I was curious what you think about that. You take us through so many stories of your patients, of your own journey through pain, through grief. 

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And I wondered what you thought about that. Are we afraid of our grief or are we afraid of feeling alone in it or feeling shamed in it or feeling judged by other people? I'm curious what you think about that..

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JS Park: Yeah, Dr. Alison, that's a perfect contrast or way to think about that, because when a post I wrote, maybe a couple years ago, went viral, I was surprised. I thought wow, I wrote something very heavy about death, dying, and loss. I guess maybe the algorithms or people found it, but either way, there were a lot of people engaging with it.

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What I recognized is that as much as grief or the topic of grief may be scary and shunned, people do want to talk about it. People do want to talk about loss, death, and dying, and look it in the face. And that's something that maybe came as a surprise, but shouldn't have. So you're absolutely right in that.

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I'm not sure people are not wanting to talk about it as much as wanting the safety and a room and a table in which there is an embrace–I want to be able to talk about this in an honest way. I think I've said before that a culture of honesty can only emerge in a culture of grace. I can only be honest if graciousness is in the room.

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So when we do experience grief, there are probably two levels of difficulty. One, we feel shame about how it looks–the expressions of grief. There's almost a social and cultural pressure to move along in grief and to get back to top shape, back into the hustle and grind and the institutional gears of productivity.

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There's something about hurrying us along where you can't keep stopping because the world keeps going, even though our world has stopped in loss. But there's also this other very realistic thing where loss is very scary. When mortality creeps in through the window, suddenly we are faced with our frailty.

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It's a very hard thing to look into the abyss, this rift that has opened up in the earth. And that part of it is very difficult to look into. And I think we do still want to talk about it, and how do we find the safety to do that?

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Alison Cook: That both-and; we fear it and we long for the safety to talk about it. And I do think, Joon, that is a part of it even when I said, your work online has been such a comfort to me. You're talking about really heavy things often. You talk about really heavy things in the book. I think every chapter has a content warning, which I had complicated feelings about, I thought, why do we have to warn people?

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But then I thought no, it can be hard on us to read real stories, hard stories about pain, even though most of us to some degree or another. It's different for every person, but most of us have a story of pain in our lives. So it is that weird thing. We're drawn to it. We want to feel those feelings and honor them, but we're also a little bit scared of it. 

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How did you, Joon, relate to grief earlier, maybe in your twenties? You've gained so much wisdom that you share with us. You pour out to us in the book. You also are so honest about sharing some of your own early life, where you might've been someone who said something you wish you hadn't said.

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I have so many of those moments, even recently, where I'll say something I wish I wouldn't have said in the moment. I'm curious, how did you relate to grief earlier on in your 20s? How did you start out in that grief journey?

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JS Park: Yeah, and Dr. Alison, feel free to jump in anytime. When I think of how I experienced or became familiar with grief, I think about childhood trauma. I think about racist bullying that I experienced. I think about social exclusion due to race. I think about ways that I have been rejected from rooms, and trauma, rejection, and exclusion.

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I should also include mental health, because I've struggled with depression my whole life. I didn't have a name for those things early on, even though I experienced them very early. And I'm embarrassed to say, and I guess I should own the embarrassment, because I didn't have the equipment or education to understand that this was grief. This was trauma. This was depression. 

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Looking back, I'm able to say hey, when I was eight years old, I was feeling that. I may have been experiencing grief or depression or anxiety early on. So it's really important that we name and validate those things. The embarrassment is, I don't think I had names for those things. So probably my 20s or even early 30s, looking back now, I'm like, gosh, I think I've always been intimate with and maybe some sort of strange friends with grief itself, but didn't really get to sit down and name it.

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It's like a workmate where you work together but you don't know their name for a little while. I'm sure we've all had that kind of funny experience where there are people that you may know on the subway, but you don't really know their name, but you know them because you see them and you're in proximity. It was a little bit like that. And I think that's why the naming part is so important. 

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Alison Cook: I talk a lot about naming in I Shouldn't Feel This Way, so we're exactly on the same page here that when you can name something, there's something about that that removes the shame. It actually can launch a process of grief, instead of this weird kind of shadowy feeling of “what's wrong with me” that I carry around, some of these emotions that it seems like other people don't carry.

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I think that also applies with trauma–”what's wrong with me that I respond in these ways”? When we find a name for something, what I hear you saying is that it helps you. It doesn't take away the emotions, nor do we want it to, but it does help you align more with the truth of your experience. Is that fair to say?

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JS Park: I think so. And I believe naturally we are meaning-making people, which means we need to make meaning and sense out of what's happening. And sometimes that occurs by confirmation bias and things like that. But we take what seems to be disparate elements or stars in the sky and we make them a constellation.

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Naming helps us to have a point of reference or a foothold in what we are seeing and what we're experiencing. One thing I've learned recently, and that I wish I'd put in the book now that I'm learning it, is when we have this grief response, there are things that emerge and erupt.

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There are things that happen in that moment that we're not quite aware of in our own body. The sounds that we make and the responses that we have–they're sudden, even explosive. And then on this other level, there is a conscious choice that we make when we grieve or when we experience emotion. So there's the “emerging” and then there's the “conscious choice”.

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And I think this conscious act, this very intentional act of grieving, naming is a part of that and validating is a part of that. And here we have grief where it seems almost senseless. I think we need this part of the “emerging”, when I'm in a room with a family member, when I see the shouting and screaming and sometimes rolling on the floor, even dancing or laughing or singing. 

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Those emotions and expressions that erupt from us, we need those. We need the emerging responses, and to not be judged for those, and we also need the act and ritualization of intentionally grieving. As these things are happening in my body, I need to be able to honor, remember, and know how to keep this person close and honor them in a way that doesn't forget them. 

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At the same time, I need to be aware that there is not an unhealthy, possibly harmful way that I'm moving forward. There's that conscious intentional choice of grieving, like when I recently got a new therapist cause my previous one retired. She diagnosed me, very surprisingly and not, with PTSD. And I think there's something about naming that is initially scary or almost feels like a weight or a burden. 

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Everything you described, I was telling my therapist, because she named all these points and symptoms about why I fit this criteria, like 80 or 90 percent or something, I said it's scary to hear that. And also, it has made so much sense of the fog that I've been in. It's like I got this compass now, and I can consciously choose in the emerging expression how I can handle this and what I can do. So it gave me some sort of power back.

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Alison Cook: Man, I think that's really well put and I'm thinking of the listener. I think you're saying two really important things there; again, there's that paradox of it's scary–it's scary to get a diagnosis at times, to name something–and simultaneously it can be freeing. Because, okay, this is the path, now there's a name for it. The path is still a path I have to take, but I can do it. I can figure out what I need to take this path through this.

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One of the things I notice in the book, Joon, is you really shy away from tying a bow on grief. And yet I found it to be very hopeful. There's, again, that paradox. You're such a beautiful writer. You show us that paradox more than you tell us. You show us. And I feel like, I don't know if this was conscious or not, or intentional or not, but very systematically, you're like no, I am going to showcase the grief.

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And I think there's a quote in here. You say, “the grief I have seen is defiance”. There's a defiance of no, I'm going to showcase the grief and the loss. I'm going to give you a few glimmers of hope, a few glimmers of the miracles. And as I was reading it, there was a very deep sense of fidelity to no, this needs to be showcased here.

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And I was curious about that. My sense is that we are too quick to want to come back to tying the bows on things, to making things okay, making things palatable. And I'm going to use the word “resistance”. Dr. Monique Gadson, who's a fellow therapist, she's a good friend of mine, she uses that word resistance, that there's an act of resistance in honoring pain. 

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And you use the word defiance. Tell me a little bit about that. Am I reading that correctly throughout the book?

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JS Park: Yeah. So I think my natural disposition is to be very optimistic and hopeful, to a fault. There's a Korean word which kind of translates to naive or gullible, like wide-eyed. And my family calls me that all the time. I just believe the best about everyone all the time. And I explain away things. I want things to be wrapped up with zero tension. 

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In the book I wrote, I did that because I had such a traumatic household growing up that I almost needed the bowtie. To be truthful, the first draft of the book that I wrote, my editor said, “it's really hard and I want the hardness to be seen because in your work, you're dealing with real stuff and loss. And, is there a landing place that we can put in here”?

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So I was like, oh, am I treating this book like my own personal exorcism or catharsis or therapy session? I don't want to put hard stuff in there, but it is hard, what I do. So I had to really think about the second draft. What can I do to not take away from the sting of the reality of loss and grief, which I deal with all the time? And then I thought, wait, but I'm a hopeful person. I'm optimistic, even though I work in these rooms. And I had to really think about how I can blend or integrate the sorrow and the celebration, the loss and the strength. 

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And then I thought, what do I do in the rooms as a chaplain? I don't exactly fix the situation. I can't, I don't have answers. I act as a presence. In the second draft, I thought more about how this book itself could be a chaplain for the reader. Yeah. So Dr. Alison, I'm saying this between writers, this is a bit of a meta-commentary on editing and writing. 

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I'm getting a little bit beyond the question but yeah, it's the thought process that went through it and the heart process of it. I want this book to be like counseling or a chaplaincy for the reader. So it changed a little bit, from here's the personal hard things that I went through to hey, here is me in my own hard stories, being a chaplain for myself and also being a chaplain for the reader. 

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The balance is, and this is for anyone listening, life is hard. There is sorrow. There is difficult loss that can't be wrapped up and resolved and bow tied. There are situations that will not be 30 minute sitcoms, and that's probably most of our situations. And how do we hold those situations together? How do we make it bearable? How do we make the unbearable bearable? 

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I think the only way is to bear it together. And that's not original or new, but it's always still true. Being presence for one another–that's when a little bit of light breaks in.

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Alison Cook: I love hearing that. Thank you for peeling back the curtain on your process, because that's what I got. I thought to myself, this is actually hopeful, even as you're taking me into the depths of real grief and real pain. I trust you, the writer, the chaplain, that you're going to show me the reality and allow me, through that, to feel permission to honor my own losses. 

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You achieved that. It's really beautiful. Here's an example; as I was reading your book, our family went through something that I was tempted to shame myself for grieving. Our beautiful, and I feel a little bit embarrassed to bring it up, but I'm going to, because I think this is what you do. Our beautiful beloved family pet who's 11 years old is getting a biopsy for cancer, and I was devastated by this news. 

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I'm reading your book and a part of me is thinking to myself, I cannot feel sad about this when other people are dealing with the kinds of things that you're talking about. And yet in my mind, I literally thought to myself, what would Joon say? What would Joon say? Joon would say, this is a loss. It's okay to feel what you feel. 

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You are a chaplain, you use the word “therapriest”. I love that. I love that term. This is a loss. You were doing what you wanted to do–shepherding me through that, even though it was a fraction of what so many of the folks in the book that you write, including your own story, are going through. Even for that kind of loss, I could feel that sense of no, this matters.

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This matters to God. This matters to me. This matters to my family. My family has had a lot of grief. I tell people, and again, I don't talk a lot about it, but my husband was a widower when we met, and my two kids had lost their mom when they met. I've had this kind of tangential relationship to the fact that grief, as you say, is something we carry with us.

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But I want to say, Joon, that it worked. What you did, what you were trying to do, to be our chaplain, I felt it in real time as I was reading the book, and I'm so grateful for that. It's not easy to go into those places. There's a cost to you, and you share that. There's a cost to you to be so near to so much loss. But through your gift of doing that, you are freeing so many of us. 

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JS Park: Yeah. Thank you, Dr. Alison, and I'm so sorry to hear that. Pets are family. They are. My mom recently lost her dog and gosh, it was very hard for all of us, you know? Thank you for sharing that and for your very kind words. I'm really sorry. That's a hard thing to go through.

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Alison Cook: There's an art to what you do as a chaplain, as a therapist. And I want to ask you about that because there is a cost to it. And one of the things that you talk about in the book is how it has affected your relationship with God and your faith. That's one of the things that was really in my head. I was like, we go to those Hail Mary prayers. We all do–God, please don't take her. 

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Whatever it is–please don't let this happen. And then there are parts of us, if we've lived long enough, we know God allows the hard thing to happen sometimes. A lot of times it does. How have you buoyed yourself through that experience with so many people? How has your faith been impacted?

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JS Park: Yeah, I wish I had an easy, clean answer for this, and my quick answer is, it depends on the day you ask me. It depends on the kind of shift that I've had, or the things I've seen that day, because a lot of times I feel like, what is my faith good for, or what is God good for?

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And I know that's a very harsh and extreme thing to say for spiritual folks to hear. But really, that's a thing that I think of often when I see the degree of suffering that I see. I've sometimes asked, God, I see doctors and nurses and even machines doing something. God, what are you doing?

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It's hard to say that I feel held up some days. Sometimes I feel so let down. And sometimes it feels like the universe is cold and haphazard, chaotic, random, and a question mark. So that part of it is hard. And sometimes when I think someone can't suffer any more, it gets even worse.

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And I think I'd written in the book something like, God, could you let up a little? I prayed that prayer. God, could you take it easy? This person's already been through so much. And then there are other times where I'm like, it's hard to believe, and sometimes it's harder not to.

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I long for and reach for constancy, a perpetual love, someone who will love us and be there with us through it. Someone who knows what it is like. And sometimes I enter these rooms as a fraction or a glimpse of that sort of presence, and I think that's what I want to believe and that's what I hold on to and that's what holds me. 

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To try to answer your question, my faith is very rocky a lot of days, in a lot of moments, and moment by moment. It depends on when you ask, but still to this day, almost nine years now, being a chaplain, before I walk into a room, I usually do a quick prayer when I sanitize my hands. I'll ask God, what do you want to do through me right now? 

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I keep my hands open because it's almost like saying, God, I need you in the room with me. And that's where my faith is these days. I wish I had an easy answer, but really I look to what's going to hold me and hold us in this moment.

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Alison Cook: I see an embodiment in your faith, again, to go to that defiance/resistance, that showing up, walking into that room to be there for that person, regardless of what your mind or your heart feels. That embodiment is an act of defiance against doubt or against death. I don't know, Joon, we can't always explain it, but I see faith in that.

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That embodiment of showing up, regardless of what I think or feel. I'm going to take this step to show up today for this human. There's an embodiment of faith in that that is really profound to me.

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JS Park: Yeah. That's beautiful. And that's true. I think that is active defiance or faith in itself. That's such a true point. I think I'm gonna probably chew on that for today. Even when we're looking at the story of Christ, the resurrection in itself was a kind of defiance against death. Here is this gap of disconnection and loss this person is experiencing, and we step in. That's bringing some sort of life into death. 

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When I see the resurrection, when I see life being spoken, when I see presence entering, I can see (and I'm making a lot of loose connections here) that is in itself an act of faith. That's beautiful, and I'll probably add that to my little brain tattoo collection.

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Alison Cook: I think we've lost in our modern theologies a faith that is beyond our ability. Doing the work that you do, you can't make, and I love how you talked about as a kid, you rationalized things to the positive as a way to cope. And here you are walking into things that are beyond understanding.

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We can't understand these things. We cannot make logical sense of them. A good God and some of these things that happen in our lives. And yet you're still showing up. And to me, that's where the hope came in that book. Like he's still showing up, man. He's still showing up against everything. You're still showing up. That to me was a whole sermon.

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JS Park: Thank you, Dr. Alison. I've been a part of some grief groups now, or talking with people after the fact. Usually I'm in the moment of crisis or loss. But when I talk to the bereaved folks who are grieving, one of the hard things that they experience is something called secondary loss, which is the cascade of loss that happens when someone dies.

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Loss of physical comfort, loss of familiarity in the home, even things like loss of income, loss of security, all of that's a sort of a cascading domino effect that occurs after someone dies. One thing I've heard often is, when someone has died in my life, my family and friends, they stopped talking to me because they couldn't. I don't know why.

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We'll come up with reasons as we're talking about them and formulating the reasons. It almost always lands on: I don't think they can look at me anymore, because it reminds them too much of that loss. The one thing that they want is that they would come over or call me or text me. Maybe they don't know what to say, but that's okay. I want them to come by.

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That's a huge secondary loss that occurs that wasn't really made aware to me until I started some of these grief groups. So that's a huge thing where I think maybe people are afraid. Oh, if I go there, it'll remind me of a loss. Or when I look at this person, they're related. They look like the person who died, things like that, or it's scary. It does take an act of courage and compassion and solidarity. It takes a lot. And at the same time, it's so needed to check in and check up.

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I think there's something in us that feels like I don't want to bother them. I don't want to be a nuisance. I don't know what to say. But sometimes I feel like that's a little bit of self-insulating rationalization. And I don't want to attribute selfish motives to that, but it can be that sometimes.

Instead of thinking, oh, I got to protect myself or, oh, I don't want to bother them and look a certain way by going to them. How do I instead have the courage, even one text, even stepping in a little bit? 

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There's that gap there. There's that sudden void of loss. How can I step in? And that does take a lot of courage and a lot of bereaved are waiting for their family and friends to show up.

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Alison Cook: Yeah, that's so well said. Our own fear of oh, I don't know what to say, even at its best, creates that layer of isolation again, that feeling of I'm alone. No one gets me. And again, it boggles my mind reading your book. Every single human walking around the planet has a story of loss to some degree or another. And yet we feel so alone in it. 

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How do we change this? And you are leading the way in teaching us to take that fumbling step. You share in the book, here are some things I’ve said that were the wrong thing. Even as I was reading, I thought, gosh, last week, a good friend shared with me a really hard, tragic loss and I said the wrong thing. She corrected me. She said, oh, actually it's this. 

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It's messy. It's messy to come alongside folks. It's hard. But I think it’s part of what we have to do to change this feeling of such loneliness, which is the real culprit in all of this. 

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Joon, what words would you give to someone who's listening going, man I'm in this, I'm in this and I'm feeling this aloneness that you guys are describing. How would you encourage that person? What are things, and I hate to put it on the one who's grieving, it shouldn't be on them to have to go ask for what they need, and yet sometimes the reality is that people aren't doing what you wish they would do. So what would you say to the listeners going, yeah, this is my experience. I feel so alone in this.

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JS Park: Yeah, Dr. Alison, the interaction you described–I want to highlight that because what a beautiful exchange that was. Going through it in slow motion, your friend was grieving. You said something and they said it's actually not that, and then you course-corrected. For one, your friend had the courage and the safety to be honest with you and to say, it's not that.

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And then you had the humility and self-awareness and the compassion to then say, okay, and then sorry, I'm going to change that or take that back, or I'm sorry that I said that. That’s a really beautiful example and exchange of how we can be open with each other. And I'm starting to think that's happening more and more where the grieving person, like you said, it shouldn't be on them, but they're taking a moment to pause and to say, that's not helpful or, hey, what you said, I hear the good intent, but here's how it landed. 

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Or when you said that, I felt this. Maybe you meant it this way, but actually I felt harmed by that, or that is more of a burden than bringing me up. And those conversations need to happen more and more, and you're right that it shouldn't be on the bereaved. And when I talk with those who are grieving, there are a few who will say, no one's reached out to me. No one wants to talk to me. It shouldn't be a two way street. It should be, hey, the person who is hurting, they're the ones who we need to go to.

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I'll also tell them, if you are feeling isolated and alone and lonely, and there are people in your life who have taken many steps back and they won't reach out, they should be the ones reaching out to you. And at the same time, it is okay for you to send a text or an email or call and say I miss you. Or hey, I know it's hard to come over and it feels like it's death here, but I need you right now. 

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It's okay to express exactly what you need, and that's the important thing–to advocate for our own needs. Ideally, no grieving person should ever have to take it upon themselves to take the initiative to say I need this from you. And at the same time, I think our lack of grief literacy or grief language has hampered all of us in many different ways. All the highways are busted. The avenues of communication are all scrambled. 

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So how do we, in a sense, provide the grace and in some ways, insight and education into “here's what I need”? And we all need things differently. A phrase that may be helpful for one person may not be helpful for another person, and I think it's important that as much as it shouldn't be on us, a very light touch, and as much as we can exert in the moment, of this is exactly what I need from you, and to be able to say that firmly and courageously and then let it hang there, that's really hard.

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It sometimes takes more energy than we want, but I found that setting those kinds of grief boundaries are incredibly important in communicating, this is what I need from you.

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Alison Cook: It shouldn't have to be this way. And, because of the reality that we are lacking in grief literacy–I love that phrase, we don't know how to grieve as a culture, you may have to do this. For the folks who are in that role of supporting–you are a chaplain, I am a therapist, and I want the listener to hear that I literally made this mistake last week–it is hard to come alongside people. We don't always get the words right. 

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But to keep showing up, and that part of showing up is knowing that person who's suffering, that person who's grieving may say that hurt me, that didn't help me, and for us to be strong enough and courageous enough to say, I'm still here. I missed that. I love you. I'm still here. That we aren't fragile, that we can take that correction of being with someone who is in those raw emotions.

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That's on us to keep showing up. It's something as a culture that we need to grow in, because all of us are going through it on some level.

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JS Park: Yeah, so I, as a chaplain, believe it or not, I don't get it right in every room either. As mental health providers or professionals, we're not flawless and infallible. We're going to sometimes not get it completely right and correct ourselves sometimes. Sometimes that feels like, oh, am I undermining my own authority or something like that?

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But there's a vulnerability in the humility there. And I do remember specifically, there was a patient visit where we didn't connect. It was very awkward and I stumbled through it. So I gave some space. Now here's the tough thing, and I'll pause in that part of the story, the pulling in and pressing back is a very difficult, delicate dance.

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Alison Cook: Yeah.

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JS Park: It’s a hard thing to know, like when someone is grieving and says, I need space right now, do they need space? Is it better if someone is there? That's a hard thing to answer. Sometimes the bereaved doesn't even know. So that in itself is a very tough press and pull-back.

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So with that patient visit, I was thinking about that dynamic. And I thought, did I do something wrong? Did I get something wrong? And there's a part of me that wanted to go in there and say, hey, teach me what I need to do for you. But then that would have been helpful either.

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Alison Cook: Exactly. Yeah.

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JS Park: So then I thought okay. What do I know about this patient in those five minutes that didn't go? What do I know about them? What do I think would be helpful for them? So I expended the mental spiritual energy to think about what would be most helpful for this patient. To attune to them. 

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I went back and I had some different ideas and it's not like it was easy, but we ended up connecting on a much deeper level. I took another chance and it's not that I do that with every patient visit, and maybe that some of that was my insecurity. We always have mixed motives and there's human parts of us and funny flesh parts of us.

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But still the main motive was that I wanted to attune myself for what this person may need. They didn't kick me out. They didn't say no, I don't want you. They did want a chaplain to visit. So I thought, okay, I'm going to try a second time. So it's one of those things where we can try and try again, and to also take caution to be compassionate and not ask a bereaved person, hey, teach me. Or hey, what do you want right now? 

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That can be tough. But instead, hey, I can deliver food to you Tuesday or Thursday night and here are the three things that I can get. Something where the people that we love and the people who have lost, we know them, and if we know them and they're in our family, to expend that little bit of loving energy to say, okay, what would help them? What would that person need and what wouldn't help them?

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Alison Cook: I love that. One of the things my husband taught me through his process of grieving his first wife was something similar. He said, you can always check in without any need of a reply. “Hey, I'm thinking about you. I'm here if you need me.” And keep doing that. Even if they don't reply, you are showing up, you're letting them know, here's a lifeline if you need it. 

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But you're not also requiring them to do anything to make you feel like you did a good job of being a good friend, which is sometimes what it's about. And that's human and it's okay, but you're really trying not to make it about you. You're really trying to say, listen, I'm here if you need me. I'm going to keep doing this. If you tell me to stop, obviously there are boundaries, but the idea being you're trying to, to the best of your ability, really let them know I'm here and I'm going to keep making little efforts, and you don't have to do anything to make me feel good about my efforts.

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JS Park: Exactly. If I went to the patient I said, hey I feel so bad about that, it becomes a burden to them, and that's something i'll take to therapy. 

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Alison Cook: It’s like, can you make me feel better about the mistake I made?

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JS Park: Yeah. I mean there are times and this is funny, maybe not, but there are times when someone will say something and I'll go, hey, that's borderline racist. Or hey, that was offensive towards me. And then sometimes they'll, bless their hearts, do a thing for a few hours where it's like a whole guilt spiral. And then I end up comforting them and I'm like, okay, I didn't want it to be this whole thing. Do you know what I mean, Dr. Alison?

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Alison Cook: Oh I cannot tell you, I've probably been on the other end of that. The spiral of, oh, it's so vulnerable. It's such a vulnerable space where you're trying to say, hey, and actually I want that from you. Let's say you and I are in that conversation. I so want you to be able to say, hey, Alison, that, that wasn't so great.

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Which takes a lot of strength and courage for you. And then for me to have enough strength to take that and go, okay, I've got to now do my own work. It doesn't mean I'm a bad person. It doesn't mean Joon's never going to want to talk to me again. It doesn't mean Joon hates my guts and is going to go.

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He told me something. That's intimacy. There's a vulnerability there, but it requires me to then go, oh, thank you for telling me. I'm so grateful. And then doing my own work to course-correct. But man, it's hard for all of us. Our egos get in there, so much of our own shame gets in there.

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But I love that we're talking about this because I do think this is a big part of what keeps us from each other. Whether it's experiences of trauma, whether it's experiences of grief, experiences of racism, it's what keeps us so removed from each other as opposed to moving toward each other.

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JS Park: Yeah. That's a big thing–the fear of losing our own self-regard or self-image. There's a part of us that likes to think, I am a good and decent person. And that is very true. Our value is intrinsic and inherent. And then when something threatens that image, you know all this already, Dr. Alison, but when something threatens that image, it can be very disorienting, even nauseating, and it can be like, but wait, I had good intent, and all those kinds of things. 

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And I'm learning that the impact matters, the impact is important. The things that we say can have unintended consequences. How do we hear and differentiate between, here was my intent, but this is the way it landed. And I need to hear how it landed with them, step outside myself a little bit and see what will care for them.

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Alison Cook: Yes, it is not about me at this moment. It's about listening. It's about being with. There's a steep growth curve in this journey. And I think that this book, Joon, is a huge gift and a huge resource for all of us to learn, even as we're reading the book, like I said, it's very experiential.

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This is how to be with someone who is hurting. You're showing us so much more than you're preaching to us and it's so effective. I read your book. I'm interviewing Lisa Jo tomorrow, and it was the same thing for us. There are parts of this book that are hard, man. She is showing us, she's not telling us, and it forces me, same with your book, to deal with my own feelings as they're coming up.

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To do the work in the moment, which is how we actually learn to tolerate the discomfort of those emotions that we feel. And you give us that gift of inviting us into those rooms with you, inviting us into your own experience. And that lets us go, okay, how does this feel? Ooh this is hard. Or, ooh, I'm tempted to want to rush to a happy ending. I can't tolerate this, whatever it is. 

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I would say to the listener, whatever you notice as you're reading Joon's book, that's okay. You might not want to share that with the person whose story is being told, but the more you read these stories and the more you grow in tolerating the emotional discomfort that surfaces for you, the better of a friend you're going to be, the better partner you're going to be, the better parent you're going to be.

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That's what this is about. You couldn't have given us this gift, Joon, if you hadn't wrestled with all of that within yourself. So thank you for doing that work and for inviting us into it with you.

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JS Park: Thank you, Dr. Alison. I think if there's one word that I can put it all together in, it's “expansiveness”. I entered almost nine years ago as a person with a certain box about what grief and faith should look like, and I've had to expand that box and make more and more room in my heart.

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And I know there's more room to grow. I think each of us with our family, our friends, we're all going to experience loss. It inevitably will happen. And I think the important part, the question about compassion is, how can I continue to expand, to hold room and make space for this person? Because grief takes up a lot of space.

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How can I continue to expand and grow for them? And yeah, my hope is that the book will give a little bit more expansiveness to the person who reads.

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Alison Cook: It's beautiful. One last question that I ask all my guests, Joon, is what is bringing out the best of you right now?

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JS Park: I have my son, he's almost six weeks old now. My son was born and gosh, I feel like he's already so different from my daughter, even though he's six weeks old, but having two children? Wow. People weren't kidding when they said having a second child is like having ten. When I look into his eyes, I think, here's my son, and I think that's the answer.

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I feel like he's the best of me. He is the best.

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Alison Cook: Oh, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Tell us where people can find you, where they can find your work, your book, all things Joon.

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JS Park: I'm on all the social media stuff and Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and my book is at aslongasyouneedbook.com.

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Alison Cook: Please check it out. You will, whether you're someone who's grieving and has felt alone, or whether you're someone who's listening to us going, I want to get better at this–read the book and wrestle with the emotions that come up. It will make you a better friend, a better person, a better contributor to this nation and to this world. This is what we all need. So thank you. Thank you for giving us your time today.

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JS Park: Thank you, Dr. Alison.

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Today’s episode is just so special and so deeply personal. If you’ve experienced trauma, please listen. If you love someone, please listen. Trauma touches so many lives, and it’s so often misunderstood. In today’s episode, Monique Koven, host of The Healing Trauma podcast, shares her powerful story of healing from trauma. There is absolute gold in this episode for everyone.

Here's what we cover:

1. The anxiety response that she couldn't "logic" away

2. How misdiagnosis caused further harm

3. The role of anger in her healing

4. Exactly how she began to heal the anxiety response she experienced

5. Separating God out from hurtful church messages

6. How Ann Voskamp’s work showed her an example of glimmers

7. Monique’s profound word for you if you’ve experienced trauma

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Resources:

• The Healing Trauma Podcast on Spotify and Youtube‍
• Listen to Dr. Alison on The Healing Trauma Podcast here
• Find Monique's work here
• Pre-order I Shouldn’t Feel This Way on Amazon‍
• Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence - from Domestic Abuse to Political Terror by Dr. Judith Herman‍
• More on Deb Dana and The Polyvagal Institute‍
• One Thousand Gifts 10th Anniversary Edition: A Dare to Live Fully Right Where You Are by Ann Voskamp‍

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Related Episodes:

• Episode 79: Surviving Trauma & A Path to Forgiveness—Finding God In the Hardest Parts of Your Story With Esau McCaulley
• Episode 15: CPTSD—The Pain of A Million Paper Cuts

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Thanks to our sponsors:

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• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.
• Go to thrivemarket.com/bestofyou for 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift!
• Make the switch and build a starter kit. 15% off AND free shipping when you buy a Notes starter kit at notescandle.com/bestofyou.Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript:

Alison Cook: Monique, I'm so thrilled to have you here. You are doing such beautiful work on the Healing Trauma Podcast with all the things that you offer people who are recovering from trauma. I'm just thrilled to have this opportunity to get to know more of your story and what has inspired you to do the work that you do.

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I've talked about I Shouldn’t Feel This Way and this new framework I have coming out. It’s this idea that so often the very first thing we become aware of when we have to dig into our own emotions is this inner guilt, this inner shame, sometimes this inner gaslighting that we do to ourselves, trying to get ourselves not to feel the way we feel.

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I want to start there because you write so powerfully and, if it's okay, I want to read your words. You said, “I could not wait until childhood was finally over and I could live free and away from the terror and dread that I experienced in my childhood and teenage years. It was only to realize that it felt like I had not really escaped my childhood after all. I did not understand this because everything on the outside appeared well. I had a career I loved, a beautiful family of my own, and a great community of friends”. 

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I just read that and I thought, oh gosh, I'm imagining you maybe in your early to mid twenties thinking, I've got it. I've done it. I've escaped a really hard situation. Why do I feel the way I feel? Can you talk to us, put us back in that moment in time? What was that like for you and what was going on inside of you?

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Monique: Yeah, you described it so well. After we've experienced trauma, we are so happy to be away from it and to start fresh, to start new, to have that life that we dreamed of as children, one of peace and calm and happiness. For me, I had just gotten married. Like you read, everything on the outside looked like things should be going really well.

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It didn't make sense to me because my body was still feeling sensations and images, and I was feeling a lot of hypervigilance. My husband would walk into a room and I'd jump to the ceiling almost, and it just didn't seem to make sense because on the outside, I have this new life, but yet my body was waiting for what happened in the past to happen again.

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Alison Cook: There was pretty significant verbal and physical abuse in your childhood. Is that right?

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Monique: Yeah, there was a lot. I had a disorganized attachment. So that means, in my case, a very frightening mother. This was who I was supposed to attach to, and you don't have that safe place. Then there was just chronic chaos, lots and lots of marriages, and I was basically always feeling like I was fighting for my life.

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Alison Cook: Very little safety, none of that secure attachment–this is what you're bringing into this marriage with a guy who, when he walks in the room, he hasn't harmed you, he hasn't hurt you, he's not scary, yet your body is reacting to him in your early marriage, as if he is like one of these figures from your past.

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I imagine that was very disorienting for you. At the time, how did you frame that for yourself? How did you make sense of that? Or did you not know what to do with it?

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Monique: Yeah, it wasn't just him, and there were really great parts of it too, but it was really the day to day, moment to moment life–getting up in the morning, having your own apartment, and the responsibilities of that. Going to my work, I was a social worker and the whole experience of it was one of feeling like I was in danger all the time. I was like, you've got a lot of anxiety girl.

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Alison Cook: Okay. Was there a sort of self-shaming component to that? What's wrong with me? Why can't you get it together? Was that part of it for you?

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Monique: 100 percent. Because it didn't make sense. I was physically away from my childhood. And I was really upset with myself, thinking what is wrong with you? Look at your life. You have everything that you've wanted and yet you're feeling so anxious.

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Alison Cook: Yeah. I feel that in my being when I hear you say that, because I think that is so common for people in the absence of anyone helping us to understand and name what's happening. We tend to blame ourselves and get really hard on ourselves, when your body was doing what it was conditioned to do.

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What happened, Monique, as you talked about it? Did you tell people? Who did you tell and how did that go? Either positive or negative. It might've made it worse sometimes.

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Monique: I remember when it was happening at the beginning at my first job. I'd be making lots of notes because I just thought it was so odd how I was feeling. I didn't really talk about it a whole lot at the beginning. I guess I didn't trust that I could share it, but later on I started to talk about it and recognized, okay, I'm feeling a lot. I need to go for some help. 

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As a social worker, I knew that there was help and I started to see a variety of people: therapists and doctors, and I was basically told that I have anxiety and I need to work on the anxiety and the most effective approach for anxiety is cognitive behavioral therapy.

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So I need to work with someone who does that. I did that and that didn't seem to work, found another, tried another, did another, tried another. My body just wouldn't settle when I needed to, because often I would write when I was activated, right? You're supposed to write the truth of what's happening.

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I could write the truth, but my body would say that's not the truth. You're writing that you are safe, but your body is saying, no, you're not. No, you're not. How do you explain that, when you yourself don't even have the words? You try, but they don't understand? The feedback I kept getting back was, you need to just keep trying, and I'd get this look and, of course, I would interpret that as, okay I must be this client that's not complying or I must be the one that just can't do it. It was really hard.

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Alison Cook: Yeah. There is another traumatizing event there–when you go to get help, the help that is being offered to you is actually not helping, but you feel responsible for that again.

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Monique: It even goes deeper than that because my trauma was actually related to not getting help. So you can imagine, here I'm trying to get help. Because things are happening that feel like the past and I'm not getting help. I'm told, just stay with it. I can share a particular scenario because I could not understand it.

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When I was a young mom, I would be exhausted. I had twins. I'd be exhausted at the end of the day, and sometimes I'd leave the dishes and pots for the next day. I'd wake up in the morning and I'd take my kids to preschool, and I would come back and I said, you're gonna do the dishes, you're gonna put things away, make it organized.

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Whenever I would try to do that, my feet would essentially feel frozen on the floor. They wouldn't move. I'd be like, why am I like this? What? Why can't I do it? I would try and I could feel my body get more and more activated. Then finally I couldn't take it anymore and I'd grab my keys and I would run out the door.

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I was like, what is that? it happened every single day, and I'm like, I don't understand this. It makes no sense. Just do the stinking dishes. I could not. When I brought it to my doctor, she was saying, you really need to stay. You need to stay. When actually that was the worst thing I could do. 

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That's just an example of how trauma was showing up in my body. I didn't know how to manage it. I didn't know what to do with it. Of course I blamed myself.

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Alison Cook: That is such a powerful example of your body reading a situation that it needed you to understand was real, even if it wasn't real in that moment. In that moment you were safe, but it was as if your body was telling you, “But I have known unsafety in this situation in the past. Please listen to me”. 

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How did you figure that out, Monique? How did you start to recognize, “No. I'm not crazy. My body isn't crazy. There's a memory here. Something has happened that was hard and I don't know yet what it is. I get that it's not the current situation of the dishes, but something is going on”.

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How did you start to honor that? That's such a powerful story.

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Monique: Oh my goodness. Like I said, it went on for quite a while and I remember asking friends, does this ever happen to you? They'd look at me with blank faces. No. Oh my goodness. It started with recognizing that there's more to this. I've had trauma. At the time, Complex trauma was not recognized as childhood trauma, it was just PTSD, so from a one-time event or a war.

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I remember going to the doctor and of course, it wasn't recognized. That's why I was given a diagnosis of anxiety. Nothing about my childhood was ever even mentioned. Then one day, I came across a book by Dr. Judith Herman, and she was the first person to actually define and bring up, hey, there's this other definition.

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It's not just PTSD, there's complex trauma that can involve childhood experiences that have been repetitive and your body can feel like you've been in a war and it has lasting impacts. When I read that, I'm like, oh my God, oh my goodness. I took that book to the doctor that I was seeing. I said, I think I know what it is, what's going on. 

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She looked at me with such a blank face, didn't discuss it, and I guess I for the time, put it aside. Just as a note, I've had Dr. Judith Herman on my podcast last year, which was such an honor. But yeah. then what happened was I started to learn a little bit, I started to see little peeps on the internet about complex trauma. 

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So I said, you know what? I'm going to get diagnosed professionally. So I met with a psychiatrist and a psychologist that worked together that did all of the evaluations and it came back to complex trauma. When I saw that paper, you can imagine I'm holding that paper and it's like evidence.

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I just said, okay, now I'm going to do something about this. That started the whole journey of going for the right type of help, the type that is going to address complex trauma. I started getting trained as a certified complex trauma recovery coach, and my life just took off at that time.

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Alison Cook: Man, this is just, it's so powerful. There's so many different directions I can take there. I noticed my body feeling really angry about the care that you got at the time. I think we're probably roughly the same age and I know exactly what you mean. Everything pointed to cognitive behavioral therapy, which for the listener, can be a helpful modality when it's correctly prescribed. 

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It's about looking at your thoughts and aligning your thoughts more with reality. But the problem with trauma, and we'll get into this, is that you can have all the rationality in the world. You can be thinking rationally, but your body, your nervous system hasn't gotten that message. Your nervous system is still living in the war and there's no amount of logic or rationality that can get that message down into your body. 

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We know this now, but at the time, listening to you, it breaks my heart for a whole generation, and generations of people who were told there's something wrong with you. You're the problem. You're crazy. To see your face light up when you got the complex trauma diagnosis, there was freedom in that, that brought you freedom and clarity–I'm not crazy. There's a reason that my body is behaving in the way it behaves. 

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The resilience in that, the agency in that, Monique, that you had to advocate for yourself, that's remarkable. That younger version of you and what she had to do to get to that point of no, I'm not crazy here–that's heroic.

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Monique: Thank you. I guess there was always a part of me that was like, I'm going to do something about it. I think one of the first things I did when I got that diagnosis is start the podcast. I didn't know what I was doing. I was talking in my phone, but one thing I knew for sure is that if I've experienced this, there are so many who are going through that and I just I felt so I had to do something to help bring a little bit of light, a little bit of education, so that they would know that, no, you're not crazy.

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Alison Cook: So Monique, you get this diagnosis and I imagine you're replaying the tape on all the years of getting really bad help and bad advice. So tell me a little bit about that. What was that like for you?

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Monique: There was a period where I was angry. I was really angry. I had to process that, but for years, I contemplated–I want to go back to that doctor, the one I brought in the book to, and I've even called a couple of times asking, is she still there? I wanted to say, hey, and say, all this time that I came, you said it was anxiety. It wasn't!

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I was upset about that. I wanted to also say, “And the therapy you recommended, I'm going to tell you why it doesn't work!” Then, of course, we can talk about the faith community because that too, there was some hurt around also not being trauma informed. 

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I get it–if therapists can't even be trauma-informed, how can we expect the faith community to have that understanding? So I was angry for a while.

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Alison Cook: Yeah. Yeah. I hear that. How did you honor that anger? Justifiably, you were angry.

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Monique: I think I allowed it because it wasn't destructive. It wasn't an interference. I thought it was a healthy anger. That's what it felt like to me anyway. So that felt good. It felt powerful. There was empowerment there. There was justice for that girl. Because I remembered, hey, she didn't get help. Then, again, she didn't get help. 

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Alison Cook: I love that. I do think anger is very empowering. It's forward-moving. It's okay, now I can see the truth. I love that justice orientation. So that became a resource to you in a way, that anger. I love that. I think that's important for people to hear. There was a constructive nature to it.

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You had seen something that other people weren't seeing. I love that you channeled that anger in many ways. I'm going to start advocating for other people to get this message, start the podcast, get this word out about the truth about trauma to other people.

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Monique: It's a slow process. I find the church community has changed. They're much more open to mental health now over the years, but there still needs to be that real understanding of what happens when we've experienced trauma. How it's not just the mind, and that just quoting scriptures is not going to change a nervous system that's in dysregulation, that is overwhelmed because it has experienced chronic trauma and these are some of the symptoms.

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Alison Cook: It's interesting, Monique, because you were both part of the therapeutic community as a social worker, and you'd been let down by that community. As a person of faith, you'd been let down by faith communities.

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So talk to me a little bit about your faith. How did you, or were you able to, keep your understanding of God separate from how you'd felt let down by faith communities?

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Monique: I was able to separate the people, even though some people said some things that really could be very hurtful. I've shared with you before–I had a really beautiful experience with God in my early 20s and I knew he was real, and I knew he was for me, and I knew he was going to help me, and I just clung to that.

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He was the safest place that I knew. So it wasn't the church, but rather God himself was the safest place/parent/person for me.

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Alison Cook: Monique, you and I talk about these experiences we had early on with God on your podcast, the Healing Trauma Podcast. We'll link to that in the show notes. But I love what you're saying: there was a secure attachment with God that held you through your disappointments with the church.

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That's amazing. I love that. Anything else, Monique, that you want to share about that period of time, of wrestling and coming to terms with the reality of your C-PTSD?

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Monique: I think what really helped and even started to provide a sense of compassion for my own experience was when I did some professional training with Deb Dana, with the Polyvagal Theory. That rocked my world big time. It changed everything because I really got an understanding of what is happening, what is going on, and how much our bodies and responses make sense.

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In the past, when I would have these triggers or responses, I would get upset because it didn't make sense. But when I learned about how our bodies are always looking underneath awareness, looking and evaluating whether we are safe or whether we're in danger, because it's happening below awareness, that makes sense. 

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That's why I would walk into a room not thinking anything, but suddenly feeling this powerful feeling inside me. That wasn't coming from my mind. It was coming from a cue my body picked up that may have reminded my body of something in the past, and I was experiencing it in the present. That brought a lot of compassion.

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Alison Cook: Wow. If you're willing, would you walk us through that instance of your freeze response in the kitchen with the dishes, based on what you know now about the body and about polyvagal theory? 

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Monique: Okay. Absolutely. It's so interesting, our brains, and you know this, they're connectors. I was saying on one of my episodes how I've seen this in real action once we were driving in Myrtle Beach. As I was driving, I heard my brain and my brain was saying, this town is like that town.

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That's what brains do. This is like that, or this is similar to that. In my kitchen, I would walk in and there would be pots and pans and all kinds of things. I've had a lot of repetitive trauma, sometimes in the kitchen of complete chaos, and for some reason, my brain made a connection. What happened to me over and over again, and sometimes it was in the kitchen, there was chaos, there was so much disorder and craziness, and I always wanted to run, but often I was stuck.

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I looked at the dishes and the pots and pans that were overflowing and it's pots and pans, for crying out loud. But to the brain, to my body, it was a reminder, even if it's just a sliver of truth, a sliver of connection, a sliver of a reminder. That's what it did. I did the right thing. I got out of there. I grabbed those keys because I couldn't do that when I was younger. I was stuck. I was frozen. But this time, I grabbed those keys and I ran. I did that so many times.

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Alison Cook: That is such a beautiful example of this. Sometimes we call it the work of reparenting where at the time it was happening, it was probably still somewhat semi-conscious. You couldn't have pieced together all the dots, but I could also imagine, I don't know if you actually did this as you're walking yourself through that, to gently become aware of this freeze response. 

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It makes sense, and watch us leave the room, watch that now, little part of me. I think of the parts model here. Watch that right now. I actually have the agency and we can leave. As you allow that younger part of you to recognize, oh, now you have an adult in the room who really loves you and who will care for you and who will get you to safety. Over time, that part of you is going to become more open to the idea that, okay, these are just pots and pants.

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But you first have to connect with the part. It reminds me of the work of parenting our own children. We first have to connect with them. They're scared of something. They're scared of the dark closet. They're scared of the cobwebs. We're not sitting there saying to them, you shouldn't be scared of that. That's dumb. 

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We're saying, let me come with you into that fear. Let me explore that dark closet with you. Let me show you that you have what it takes. We connect first and that's exactly what your body needed in that moment–not for you to shame it, but to go, yeah, I get it. That's just beautiful.

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Monique: Yeah. you can imagine when I was told, you really need to stay in it–

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Alison Cook: –that's re-traumatizing.

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Monique: Yeah. But my body knew better. My body knew to get out.

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Alison Cook: Yeah, and as much as parts of you were taking in the bad information, parts of you were like, no, I'm going to keep fighting for myself, and you did. You did. You got yourself better information. I just love that. 

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Tell us a little bit, what were some of the next steps you took? You finally understood, this is what's happening. How do you begin to heal? Because obviously that naming is huge. It's huge to unlock the beginning of the healing journey, but you still have to go through the journey.

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As you began to put the pieces together, were there daily practices that began to help you really heal your body and honor the signals in a new way?

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Monique: Yeah, definitely. The thing with healing from trauma is that it's work. It's not just going to be time and it's not just going to be once a week therapy. Because we have this nervous system that has been shaped very early on towards self-protection and towards looking for things that are potentially threatening. Again, that happens below awareness. 

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Then we need to make a conscious effort to help our bodies to see that there is still good in the world and in our lives, and to look for those things and also to practice. So one of the practices that I do, you can call it a gratitude journal, but it's a little bit more than that.

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I write down things throughout the day that give me a little taste of goodness and I don't just write it because that's going to stay in my cognitive mind and it's not going to do very much. It's going to stay there and then go away. I'm trying to help my nervous system really get a feel that things are different and that there's goodness.

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For example, this is a big glass of water and the cup is pink with flowers. It makes me happy. So I would look at that cup and feel a joy of like why I chose it and how I feel inside. I would savor that for a couple of seconds. So that's the idea of savoring just for a bit, and doing that throughout the day.

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So if I'm walking, in the past I might walk with earphones, and I really don't anymore because I'm trying to take in the goodness. So I'll look around and I'll stop for a second, take it in, what that bird feels like in my body, what the sun, the air feels like in my body. So that's what I do.

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Alison Cook: I love that. It reminds me, I think it's Deb Dana's term of “glimmers”, which are the opposite of triggers. You're being intentional about noticing the glimmers. Glimmers are when our nervous system is calm, clear, it's in that good place. You keep using the word goodness, which I love.

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It's a fruit of the spirit. it's almost like you're training yourself again, with that reparenting idea. You imagine with a young child, how we want our children to bask in the goodness. It's almost like you're teaching yourself how to do that. I love that,

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Monique: Yes. You know what's so interesting? I absolutely love Ann Voskamp and she knows it, but who doesn't? But what's so interesting was that when I was learning about the training I did for polyvagal theory and learning about glimmers, I'm like, this sounds a lot like Ann's work, because Ann was writing a list of God's graces.

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For me, as someone who loves God, I thought, yes, I'm going to see these things through the lens of God's gifts and God's goodness. That was so powerful to me because like she says, it shows us the ways that God loves us. So we get that sense that he's still active in our lives every moment. It's the little things. It really is.

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Alison Cook: I think you're referencing One Thousand Gifts, which you're so right. That's exactly what she was doing. I love what you're saying, Monique, and I want to just pause here for a second and linger because so often when we're talking about trauma and we're talking about the activation, and it's so important to honor that, what I love about what you're saying is it's the both- and. To honor what's hard and not shame yourself for the times of activation. And, simultaneously you're trying to also teach your body about what's good, what is safe, what is beautiful, what is good about God. It's the wholeness. It's the integration. It's not all one thing, but it is both. 

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Monique: It's so interesting that you say that because that's exactly what I was thinking about before our conversation–about the both-and. Because sometimes with our upbringing, it's black and white, things are horrible, and then there may be good. 

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It is a both-and. We can have some symptoms that are uncomfortable and we can have some goodness in our lives. We can have both and we can hold both.

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Alison Cook: That's incredible. That's a really powerful testimony for lack of a better word, in the sense of the healing you described. We talk on the podcast about how the word salvation has its roots in the word “sozo”, which actually means heal. It's really about the process of healing. God didn't minimize what was hard for you, and you also honor the goodness that you taste. It's that much more beautiful for having honored what was hard.

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Monique: Yes. And since this journey, I've been able to really slow down and see things that in my hypervigilance, I didn't see. A lot of survivors have difficulty staying in the moment because their bodies are used to being ready for the next thing. This idea of coming back into the land of the living is so beautiful and so hopeful.

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Alison Cook: That's beautiful. What would you say to that younger 20-something-you now?

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Monique: I would probably first tell her that I love her and that she is precious and beloved and there's going to be hard things, but that it's going to be okay.

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Alison Cook: That's beautiful. She is lucky to have you. What would you say to the listener who is maybe realizing there's been trauma or who is healing from trauma? What would you want the listener to know?

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Monique: The very first thing that comes right out of my mouth, because I believe this with all of my heart, I feel like it's something that's been stolen, is that I really want them to hear this truth I'm about to say. It’s that you are so beloved. You're beloved. You're beloved.

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That's what you're made of. Then I would say that it is possible to find joy, to experience moments of peace, fun, safe relationships, community, and that there is always hope.

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Alison Cook: That's beautiful. That is so beautiful. How can people find you, Monique? You're doing such good work in the world, bringing that hope to so many people. How can people find you?

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Monique: They can find me at my website thehealingtraumapodcast.com, and you can also listen to The Healing Trauma Podcast on any platform. If you sign up with Spotify, you will have some bonus and extended episodes, but that's how you'll find me.

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Alison Cook: Yeah, I highly recommend it. I did an episode with you for your podcast, and you do a really great job. You've got some great people on there. You have a faith focus, but you bring in people from all sorts of experiences to talk about different angles on trauma. It's really beautiful.

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Monique: The faith component just started this past January, and I’m really excited about that. If you look at it, you might see that I've had a lot of well-known people, but now we're taking a little focus on trauma, healing, and faith.

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Alison Cook: Beautiful. One final question. What's bringing out the best of you right now?

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Monique: Oh. I want to say, the first thing that comes to my mind is my little dog that's sitting right next to me. I love him so much. He's just such a joy. I kiss him a million times a day. I'm going to have to say that, but just don't tell my husband or kids that I said that.

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Alison Cook: Honestly, dogs just bring so much joy. Talk about that joyful goodness. Thank you so much Monique, for sharing your story, for being here and for taking your hard story and turning it into these healing resources for so many people.

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Monique: Thank you for having me. It's been a joy.

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Do you walk on eggshells with someone you love? Do you sometimes feel like you can't have an honest conversation?

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Signs of emotional immaturity are everywhere. In today’s episode, we dive into the signs of emotional immaturity and its profound effect on our relationships. You'll learn the difference between emotionally mature and immature responses so that you can improve your connections.  

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Here’s what we cover:

1. Why emotional immaturity is so prevalent & how it showed up in me!
2. Examples of mature vs. immature emotional responses
3. The difference between emotional immaturity and narcissism
4. The role of enmeshment in emotional immaturity
5. Tips for how to navigate a relationship with an emotionally immature person
6. Tips for growing in emotional maturity

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Resources Mentioned:

• Pre-order I Shouldn’t Feel This Way
• ‍Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents by Lindsay Gibson‍
• Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships by Nedra Glover Tawwab
• More on Attachment theory, John Bowlby, and Mary Ainsworth ‍
• Galatians 5:22-23‍

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Related Episodes:

• Episode 95: 4 Toxic Behaviors You Need to Recognize & the #1 Way to Protect Yourself
• Episode 94: Should I Stay or Should I Walk Away? How to Discern When It’s Time to Leave with Emily P. Freeman
• Episode 1: What Is Narcissism Really?

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Thanks to our sponsors:

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• Head over to WildHealth.com/BESTOFYOU and use code BESTOFYOU at checkout for 20% off!

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author.

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript:

Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I am so glad you're here. I think today's topic is relevant for so many of us as we're navigating relationships, parenting, friendships, marriages, romances–as we're navigating all sorts of relationships.

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There's this category that I think we don't talk about enough that applies to a lot of different issues that we see surfacing in our relationships. That's this category of emotional immaturity.

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Understanding emotional immaturity is important for a number of reasons. Number one, I think it's really common. I see it a lot. I don't think we've done a very good job of learning how to become emotionally mature humans. There are a lot of reasons for that. 

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In general, a lot of times when we're navigating relationships, whether with friends, whether with romantic partners, whether as parents, or with the people in our communities, emotional immaturity is showing up far more often than people might think. When we can name something like emotional immaturity and recognize it, it helps us learn how to navigate those situations more strategically and with more wisdom. 

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Number two, it's also really helpful to understand the difference between something like emotional immaturity and a more significant deep-seated personality disorder like narcissism. They often get confused and it's important to understand the difference, because the way you might interact with someone who's emotionally immature is going to be different than how you might interact with somebody who's narcissistic. 

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Third, it's really important to recognize emotional immaturity in ourselves. I can honestly tell you that as I look back over my own adult life, I think I was a fairly emotionally immature human well into my thirties. I do not say that with any amount of shame. I say that with some objectivity. 

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I had a lot of really overdeveloped qualities. I would say in some ways I was more mature than my peers. But in this area of understanding and regulating and managing my own emotions, there was some immaturity. Now, how I coped with not knowing how to understand or regulate my emotions was to retreat. 

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I didn't act out or lash out of my emotions. Nobody would have necessarily looked at me and said, oh, she has some emotional immaturity. I chose the flight option of the fight or flight spectrum. I would keep my emotions completely out of those relational interactions. 

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Then I would disappear, escape, where I would essentially numb my emotions, which I didn't realize I was doing at the time, give myself some distance, and then enter back into those relationships without ever really communicating on behalf of those emotions. 

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As you can imagine, that doesn't lead to a lot of intimacy. I could perform well when I was with other people, then I would retreat and I would numb through watching television or food or not really egregiously unhealthy ways of numbing, but still numbing. 

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Nonetheless, I wasn't really giving myself the care that I needed. When I would enter into a relationship that required some emotional maturity, I wouldn't know what to do. That's when that emotional immaturity would come out. I would begin to notice, oh my gosh, I don't know what to do when someone is giving me constructive feedback, or I don't know how to speak up on behalf of myself, or I'm overreacting in a big way to a very minor disappointment. 

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Again, I was pretty good at hiding those overreactions from other people, but I knew what was going on and it was inhibiting my ability to forge intimate relationships with other people. Emotional immaturity is something I think a lot of us struggle with. Again, I really want to emphasize there is no shame in recognizing some of these features in ourselves. 

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I also want to emphasize that we don't want to judge others where we see some of these features. We do want to set healthy boundaries. We do want to extract ourselves from emotionally immature dynamics in our relationships. But we want to be able to do that without self-shame or judgment of others.

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Before we dive in to what emotional immaturity is, what it looks like, and how we grow in emotional maturity, I want to give you a brief overview of the history of understanding emotions to help you understand why this relationship to our emotions is so complicated and why we run into emotional immaturity in other people, and sometimes in ourselves, 

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The reality is that our understanding of the role of emotions came in the late 20th century, particularly with the rise of psychological research in the 60s and 70s, which began to focus a lot on attachment theory.

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If you think about attachment, it's really getting at the importance of nurturing emotional wellbeing in children. When John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth were studying young children and how they reacted, the first thing that they looked at was how a child's emotions were affected emotionally when a parent left the room.

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In those famous attachment studies, they were observing how a child's emotions were affected by the type of attachment he or she had with their parent. That research came into the forefront in the sixties and seventies, but it didn't really trickle down into having a practical impact on parenting until the last several decades. 

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For many people who were raised in the seventies, eighties, even the early nineties, there was a very different emphasis on emotions. Even in healthy families, emotions weren't necessarily discussed a lot. We didn't really understand the importance of honoring a child's emotions, validating a child's emotions. 

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All of those concepts are very new to psychology research. It's also very new in parenting paradigms. If you've been parenting young children in the last couple of decades, no doubt you've probably become aware of how important it is to help your kids understand their emotions.

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But again, that's very new. That's quite recent. A lot of people are simply walking around with a deficit of information about how to manage and regulate and understand emotions. It's a blind spot that a lot of people have now. The shift towards recognizing and validating children's emotions has led to different parenting styles and these parenting styles prioritize open communication and more transparency, the development of this secure emotional foundation that we talk about in terms of attachment.

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But again, that's fairly recent. If you've been parenting kids in the last couple of decades, you've probably given your kids a stronger foundation in that understanding of their emotions. But a lot of people simply don't have that foundation. Even if we have some of the knowledge, we're still working to correct some flawed messages that we got about emotions,

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That's why, again, there's no shame in any of this, but knowledge is power. The more we understand what emotional maturity looks like, the more we can develop it in ourselves and the more we can strive to bring it into our relationships with other people.

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What is emotional immaturity? What do we mean by that? It's a state where someone has a really hard time managing their emotions effectively. They struggle to regulate their emotions, which simply means that they have an emotion and tend to immediately act out of that emotion versus emotional maturity, which is having an emotion, naming the emotion, and then regulating that emotion.

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A lot of times you'll hear me say, “speaking on behalf of an emotion”, instead of speaking from an emotion. When I experience anger, if I don't have the maturity to know how to regulate my anger, I might go around getting really angry in the moment at whoever triggered that anger, whether it's justified or not.

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But if I've learned how to regulate my emotions, I can notice, oh, I'm feeling angry. I wonder what that's about. I can do some self-inquiry. I can discern whether that anger is justified. I can discern the source of that anger. I can discern whether that anger is because somebody has wronged me and I need to actually go have a conversation with that person.

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Or I can also discern if that anger is something going on inside of me, and the other person actually didn't do something wrong. But I felt angry, which means there's something else that has happened. For example, let's say you're with your adult children and one of them talks about how they're thinking about moving out of state and it triggers anger inside of you. 

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You don't like that your young adult child is thinking about moving far away from you. An emotionally mature person recognizes, oh, I'm angry, but I don't think my child has done something wrong. How do I need to manage my anger so that I don't lash out at someone who hasn't actually done something wrong? What is that anger actually about? 

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Then you can go on a process to understand, where is that anger actually coming from? Because this person didn't actually do something wrong. That would be an emotionally mature response. 

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Another example of an emotionally mature response with anger: let's say that a friend is really dismissive of you. You share something really vulnerable or really hard and they're judgmental or critical of you. You notice that you feel anger. In that instance, the anger is warranted. It's justified. It's actually about what the other person did.

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But again, an emotionally mature response would be to recognize that anger, name it, “wow, that made me feel angry” and then respond effectively on behalf of the anger, such as saying something to the effect of, ouch, that hurts. I feel really criticized at this moment. I was looking for support. What's that about? 

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There might even be a little edge to your voice, but you speak up on behalf of your feelings. Those are two examples of an emotionally mature and emotionally regulated response. 

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An emotionally immature response in each of those incidents: let's go back to the example of where your young adult child says that she's thinking about moving out of state. You notice anger and you lash out. “You can't do that. How could you leave everybody who loves you? You won't be okay on your own”. 

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You actually start to go after your young adult child in a really inappropriate way. That is not an appropriate response to what she shared with you. That would be an emotionally immature response. You feel an emotion, but you respond in a really immature way and it's harmful to the other person.

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Let's look at that second example where a friend is dismissive or critical or even judgmental of you after you share something vulnerable. You notice that you feel anger. An emotionally immature response in that moment would be to yell at your friend. “You never listened to me! You're so selfish. I hate you”!

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That would be an emotionally immature response. It's not immature to have the feeling of anger. The feeling of anger is valid. But when you lash out like that in an impulsive unregulated way, you're participating in a really toxic dynamic. Your emotional response out of that anger isn't helping the situation and it's actually making it worse. 

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Again, when it comes to emotional immaturity, it's not that we have these emotions that is the problem. It's how we are able to regulate those emotions and respond effectively on behalf of them.

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The American Psychological Association defines emotional maturity as a high and appropriate level of emotional control and expression. Think about that. There's the ability to take charge and control your own emotions. I don't love that word control because we're not trying to keep them down or suppress them. 

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We're trying to regulate them. We have the emotion, but we're in control. We're in command of them. This is that fruit of the spirit of self-control that we get out of Galatians 5. I can have that emotion, but I'm also in control of it. 

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Then the second component is expression. It's not that we're stifling that emotion. It's not that we're sidelining it or exiling it. It's that we learn how to express ourselves in a healthy way on behalf of that emotion. Control and expression are both a part of emotional maturity.

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When I shared with you my own experience with emotional immaturity in my thirties, I was high in control. I could control my emotions, but I could not express them. That's what led to that emotional immaturity. I could not express my emotions, and we have to be able to express emotions to have healthy relationships with other people.

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On the other hand, emotional immaturity, according to the American Psychological Association, is a tendency to express emotions without restraint or disproportionately to a situation. Again, there's those two components. The emotional behavior is out of control. 

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You're not in control of the anger. You're not in control of the sadness. You're not in control of the fear. In an emotionally immature person, the experience of the emotion, whether it's anger or fear or sadness or disgust or whatever these key emotions are, is out of control, but they're also not being expressed in an appropriate and considered and measured manner.

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If you really think about how to sum this up, when we see someone who's demonstrating emotionally immature behavior, it reminds us of the behavior we see from children. That's what it is. Someone hasn't developed past those childlike states of emotional outbursts that we expect from our children.

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If you are parenting a four year old, a five year old, a six year old, you know they have emotional outbursts. They have disproportionate reactions to situations. They don't always know how to express themselves effectively on behalf of their emotions. We expect this behavior from our children. But when we see this behavior in adults it can do damage to relationships.

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Here are some basic examples of emotionally immature behaviors. I want to be clear that we can all do these things in any given moment, but as with anything, when we begin to define something as emotionally immature, we're seeing a consistent pattern of these behaviors over time.

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There's an inability to handle constructive feedback. We might see a lot of defensiveness rather than someone being able to consider the validity of the constructive feedback. I talk a lot about defensiveness in I Shouldn't Feel This Way, because I see it as a yellow flag for how well we're managing our emotions.

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Emotional immaturity might show up as someone who shifts blame onto others instead of taking responsibility for their own role in a situation. If I can't take responsibility for my own emotions, I'm going to be tempted to blame others for the emotions I'm experiencing. “It's your fault that I'm angry. If you wouldn't do this, I wouldn't feel this way”.

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We see a lack of problem solving skills. As adults, we have to sometimes compartmentalize our emotions. We have to be able to honor our emotions, and also set our emotions aside to solve problems.

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For example, you might have a big emotional response to how your child is being treated at school, and that emotion is valid, but you'll need to be able to compartmentalize that emotion to figure out how best to solve the problem. What do I need to do? Who do I need to talk to? How do I approach this situation to help bring a solution to it?

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We might see constant overreactions, big reactions to minor events. We see little ability for self-reflection, for someone to be able to reflect on the emotions that they have. We see a lack of awareness of other people's feelings. It's really hard to understand other people's feelings if you don't understand your own.

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We see some impulsiveness where there's this acting out of emotion instead of this healthy restraint, honoring an emotion while simultaneously being able to think critically about a situation. Emotional immaturity can stem from a lot of different factors, and it's really important if you're in a relationship with someone where you see some of these qualities, to think about, to wonder, to get curious about what the root of that is.

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Sometimes it's rooted in a lack of knowledge. It can stem from childhood wounds where we've been enmeshed with a parent or a caregiver. I'll get into more of what I mean by that. Again, there is no shame in any of this. Then sometimes, and this is important to name, emotional immaturity is a symptom of a deeper seated problem, such as something like narcissism.

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Emotional immaturity is a symptom of narcissism. Most people who have narcissistic tendencies also show symptoms of emotional immaturity, but people who are emotionally immature are not always narcissistic. I really want you to hear me say that.

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I think that label of narcissism gets thrown around all the time, way too easily. It's an important label, especially when it fits, but there are a lot of other diagnostic criteria to name something as narcissistic. Go back to episode one to listen for more about that. But again, people who are narcissistic absolutely show signs of emotional immaturity, but people who are emotionally immature are not necessarily narcissistic. 

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They might have other really good qualities. They might be able to show loyalties, show responsibilities, and show up well in relationships. They might be a really good friend, a really good partner, a really good parent, but they struggle in this area of emotional maturity.

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I want to talk a little bit more about the role of enmeshment and differentiation in emotional development, because these are key features of growing and emotional maturity. Differentiation relates to an individual's ability to develop a distinct sense of self, to become someone who is separate from others. 

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This term is especially common as we think about families. As a young child, are you able to have a distinct sense of yourself apart from your parents? Was there an understanding that different people could have different emotional responses to the same event?

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For example, maybe a family is going to a specific church and as the kids are getting older, maybe one of the parents is starting to feel unhappy about the church service. Doesn't like the music or doesn't like the sermon. Maybe another parent is feeling okay with it. They like the service.

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Maybe the teenager in the family is really attached to the youth group and really loves the service for that reason. Every single member of that family has a different emotional response to that event, and that's healthy and that's normal. In a healthy family, there would be room for each of those different responses. 

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Even if there's a decision made to leave the church or stay at the church, there's still an acknowledgement that different people have different emotional responses to that decision. Maybe if the decision is made to leave, it's going to be done with an understanding that this is going to be really painful for the teenager who's really attached to the youth group. 

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Maybe we'll figure out ways to help that young person stay involved in that community. There's an honoring of the grief that is entailed for the individual family member. Again, this is a fairly nuanced concept that is fairly new. Many people, if you think about the way you were parented, let's say your parents had to move, you had to leave your childhood home and move out of state for a job. 

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Your parents didn't have a choice. They needed to follow the job and you had to leave and you had to uproot from a school that you loved. You were really sad about that. Again, this is not to blame parents, but in that generation, it wouldn't have been untypical for parents to say, this is the way it is. You're going to have to deal with it. 

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There wouldn't have been as much emphasis on, listen, this is hard. Yes, we do have to make this move, but yes, your grief is also valid. Let's talk about it. Let's honor it. That's nuanced parenting. A lot of us didn't get that opportunity to have their own emotional responses, to take responsibility for them.

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It's not that every emotional response is indulged or pleased or enabled, but that the emotional response is valid. That’s how children learn to regulate emotions. I can have an emotion. That emotion is valid. It doesn't mean that emotion will drive all of the decision making, but I also recognize that I'm okay. When I have a big emotion, I'll be okay. 

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It's honored. It's valid. I can see the merit in being part of a larger community, a larger system of people, in this case of family, where sometimes I don't always get my way. Sometimes that's hard, and also I'm okay because I can have my feelings about it. I'll find a way forward on this different path. 

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That's the goal. That's what leads to emotional maturity. But when we didn't get that experience, when our emotions were sidelined for whatever reason, whether it's parents who didn't know better or whether it was through abusive actions on the part of parents or toxic actions on the part of parents or traumas that were out of our control, we don't know what to do with those big emotions. We don't know what to do with them. It can be really hard. 

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A closely related concept that's related to emotional regulation and individuation is this term enmeshment. Again, I see a lot of enmeshment in some family systems and it really stymies the development of healthy emotional maturity. Enmeshment is a term used in psychology to describe a relationship dynamic where the boundaries between individuals become blurred. 

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In short, there's a lack of boundaries between two different people and with that lack of boundaries, the relationship becomes blended and blurred together at the expense of the individuals in that relationship, which can inhibit personal growth and agency as well as emotional maturity.

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A common example of enmeshment that we see happens between a parent and a child where a parent relies on their child for emotional support in an inappropriate way. For example, one parent might confide in a child about his or her adult relationships, maybe even with the other parents. 

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A parent might look to the child for support through a mental health issue, through an addiction. Children are not meant to parent their parents. They're also not meant to be their parent's primary friend. There is a power differential between a parent and a child and it's really important that a parent understands that and doesn't turn to a child for emotional support, caregiving, or problem solving. 

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There's a term for this when parents do it, it's called parentification. It's really toxic. It undermines that child's ability to develop their own sense of self, their own responses and reactions to people. It's a parent's job to teach a child how to understand their own emotions, their own thoughts, their own opinions, their own gifts, their own preferences.

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It's a parent's job to help a child develop that strong sense of self, that strong sense of identity. When that process gets subverted and a parent leans on a child to help the parent, it gets really toxic. If that happened to you, if you have a parent who relied on you to get their needs met, you may have a really hard time understanding your own emotions or understanding your own preferences.

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Their emotional immaturity had an impact on you. There's an incredible book about this topic by Lindsay Gibson. She's a therapist who writes a lot about this. Her books are really practical and helpful. The book is called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. It's a great read if you're resonating with some of what I'm saying about this

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Enmeshment can also happen in romantic partnerships, where one partner tries to dictate the emotional climate of the relationship where you're not allowed to bring your own emotional responses into the relationship. If you think about that example I shared where two people can go to the same event, whether it's a church service or a family reunion, each person is going to have different emotional responses to that event. That's healthy.

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Part of the beauty of relationships is getting to share each person's individual reactions. We learn more about the other person, but in an enmeshed romantic partnership, one person feels like their job is to simply bear witness to the other's emotions. That other person can't do the work of bearing witness to yours, and so there's some emotional immaturity there that leads to a deficit in that aspect of building intimacy in that relationship. 

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Then you can see enmeshment also in friendships or even in sibling relationships, especially in the absence of parental emotional availability. In those situations where the parent was absent emotionally, siblings tend to become each other's primary source of comfort and support. This can be a beautiful thing, but when it gets too enmeshed, it can make it difficult for the two siblings to honor each other when there's a difference of opinion or a difference of an emotional response.

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Enmeshment precludes each person showing up as an individual because there's a fear of losing that attachment. Again, if you think about a healthy relationship, part of it is being present to each other in our uniqueness. That's the beauty of relationships. I get to know you, I get to understand you. I'm so curious about how you're seeing this situation and you get to know me, you get to understand my responses to this situation.

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Together we see a bigger picture. We see more of the whole. We're both bringing different perspectives to a situation and through being able to share and exchange those different emotions, those different responses to that situation, we each gain a bigger perspective.

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This is the beauty of healthy relationships. We don't want to be in a relationship with someone who sees everything the exact same way we do. I need your perspective to help fill out the blind spots in mine and you need my perspective to help you see the blind spots in yours. That requires emotional maturity. It requires me to understand my own emotions and to be able to regulate those emotions so that I can be present to you as you process your emotions. 

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I want to close today with some tips for you if you're in a relationship with someone who is emotionally immature, as well as for those of you who are recognizing, “I have some emotional immaturity and I want to grow in this area”.

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First, if you're in a relationship with someone who has some emotional immaturity: most importantly, beginning to recognize, oh, this is an example of emotional immaturity. This person can't take constructive feedback from me. This person has a lot of emotional outbursts. That recognition is key. 

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The minute you begin to see that and you stop participating in that dynamic, whether through using words or through your actions, that's a huge step toward change. You're removing yourself from that dynamic. Boundaries are really critical. It is not your responsibility to regulate somebody else's emotions. 

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That is their responsibility. You can set the boundaries to remove yourself from their expectation that you will do that. For example, if you have a parent that tends to lean on you for their emotional support. You can say a brief statement of compassion. “Wow, that must be hard. I hope you're getting help for that”. Then excuse yourself from the conversation. 

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Your actions are going to speak loudly that you simply are not going to do the work of regulating their emotions, of helping them process their emotions. You can be a compassionate person and also excuse yourself from those conversations.

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I talk a lot about how to do this in I Shouldn’t Feel This Way. Another great resource, especially if you're dealing with this in the context of your own parents, is the book by Lindsay Gibson, Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. Another great resource is by Nedra Glover Tawwab called Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships.

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Now if you're someone who's been listening and going, I think some of that relates to me. How do I begin to grow in emotional maturity? A couple of steps. Number one, practice voicing your emotions with a safe person. I think I'm feeling this way. I don't know what to do with this feeling, but this is what I think I'm feeling. 

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Give yourself permission to let that young part of you, that beautiful child inside of you that never got a chance to understand her emotions, to do some of that work now. Find a safe person or do it in your journal or do it with God and begin to notice, man, this is the emotion I'm having right now. Isn't that interesting? Have some fun with it. Get curious about it.

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It can be really helpful to establish a daily practice of checking in with yourself, whether through journaling, through prayer, taking a walk each day and checking in on your thoughts and feelings. What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What do I really believe? What do I really want out of this situation?

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Begin to consider your own thoughts and feelings. Tell a friend, this is something I'm working on. I want to grow in this. If you've dealt with a lot of trauma or you've been parentified, or you're coming out of an enmeshed family system, seek the support of a professional. They can help you begin to individuate and grow in understanding your emotions. 

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This is such powerful, beautiful work. The fruits of it are so life-giving, because the truth is, the more you invest in your own emotional health and your own emotional maturity, the more your relationships will become more mature. You'll start to notice when folks have expectations of you emotionally that are unfair and that are not your responsibility.

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You'll start setting healthy boundaries and you'll start enjoying the vitality that emotions bring to our lives. There is nothing like that feeling of realizing that you can have all the different emotions and not be knocked off your feet by them, that you can feel grief, that you can feel sadness, that you can also feel joy, that you can also feel hope, that you can also feel disappointed.

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Those emotions actually become the best sort of friends. You learn to become a good friend to yourself through all of those emotions, and you develop a sense of agency, a sense of wholeness, and frankly, and a sense of being anchored that no one can take away from you.

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