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How do you move from feeling stuck to finding meaning and healing in your grief?
In today’s episode, I’m honored to speak with David Kessler, one of the world’s foremost experts on grief and the author who expanded Elisabeth Kübler-Ross’s original five stages of grief by adding a sixth stage: meaning. We explore how common reactions like avoidance, blame, and bargaining are a normal part of the grieving process, and how finding meaning can be a transformative step toward healing. Whether you’re grieving a loss or supporting someone who is, this conversation will help you better understand the continuum of grief and the power of creating meaning.
Here’s what we cover:
* The 5 stages of grief and how different parts of us experience loss
* David’s 6th stage of grief and how it developed out of his own story
* The most important question to ask someone who is grieving
* David’s 7 guidelines for creating meaning after loss
* Why grief is intimately linked to joy
Resources:
- Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief Workbook–Tools for Releasing Pain and Remembering with Love by David Kessler
- Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief by David Kessler
- Other books by David Kessler:
- On Grief and Grieving: Finding the Meaning of Grief Through the Five Stages of Loss, co-authored with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
- Life Lessons: Two Experts on Death and Dying Teach Us About the Mysteries of Life and Living co-authored with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
- The Needs of the Dying: A Guide for Bringing Hope, Comfort, and Love to Life's Final Chapter
- grief.com
If you liked this, you’ll love:
- Episode 98: I Shouldn’t Feel Alone in My Grief—Why Your Grief Matters & the #1 Most Important Support For Those Who Are Grieving
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- This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.
Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author. While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Transcript:
Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I'm so glad you're here with me this week. Today, we are diving into a topic that touches every single one of us at some point in life. It’s grief, whether you've experienced the loss of a loved one, a job, a relationship, maybe the loss of health, either your own health or the health of a loved one.
There are so many different ways that we experience loss in this life. It's so important to honor the role of grief as an inescapable part of the human experience. We know that Jesus experienced loss. He felt the pain of grief when he wept at the tomb of his friend, Lazarus, even though he knew he would raise Lazarus from the dead. He knew the end of that story.
Jesus didn't bypass the pain of the moment. He fully entered into the sorrow and heartbreak of that moment as he mourned with those who loved Lazarus. He also grieved over the city of Jerusalem. He lamented its brokenness and resistance to God's love.
In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus also experienced deep anguish. He cried out to God in the face of his impending suffering. Again, Jesus knew what the end of these stories was going to be. He knew that all things work to good for those who love God.
Yet he entered into these moments of grief, reminding us that grief is not something to avoid or minimize. Instead, it's a sacred part of being human, one that Jesus embraces with us as we're honest and transparent and open about what we feel.
The holidays, while they bring joy and anticipation and excitement, can also heighten a sense of grief. I wanted to find a way to honor that paradox. Very often, two things can be true. At the very moment that you feel the joy and hope of the holiday season, you can also get hijacked by a painful memory.
Maybe a memory of someone you've lost, of a place you've loved and haven't been able to visit for a long time, or maybe even a dream that feels buried or lost. Those feelings of grief or loss that surface sometimes unexpectedly can be hard to figure out how to navigate.
That's why I wanted to invite today's guest, David Kessler, to talk with us through some practical ways he's found to help you navigate the very normal human experience of grief. David Kessler is one of the world's foremost experts on grief. He's met with the likes of Mother Teresa and worked with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, and he's actually identified a sixth phase to expand upon Kubler-Ross's five stages of grief. He identifies meaning as that sixth stage.
He has a brand new workbook out, called Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief Workbook–Tools for Releasing Pain and Remembering with Love. I went through the workbook myself and it's such a great resource. I wanted to share it with you on the podcast today.
Before we dive into the conversation, I want to take a moment to first touch on the foundational framework of grief created by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, whose work deeply influenced David. These five stages aren't linear, as we'll talk about in today's episode, but they allow for different experiences and emotions that are closely related to the grieving process.
You may notice yourself feeling any one of these things. It could be so helpful to identify, oh, that's what's going on here. So here's a quick overview of those five stages of grief. Again, they're not linear. They don't go in any particular order, but they are very often linked to a process you may be experiencing as you think about a loss that you're grieving in your life.
The first one is denial. This is that initial shock or disbelief after a loss, where you might struggle to accept the reality of what has happened. It's really natural and normal to go through a stage of shock or disbelief. I don't know what to do with this, so I'm going to deny it or avoid it. You might notice this in your body more as avoidance or a refusal to process the events.
It's like a part of you knows, okay, I think something really painful or really hard happened here, but other parts of you are saying, no, we're not going there. We're not going to process this. This is really normal. It can be really helpful to name. Okay. Whatever this thing is that I'm going through that's really hard, I can't process it right now. This is a stage of grief that's normal and it's called denial.
Number two, you might notice yourself feeling unusually angry; the stage of anger hits as the reality of a loss sets in. As you begin to process it internally, you might notice a part of you feeling angry. I can't believe this happened. Whose fault is this? I want to blame somebody.
I want to believe that someone else could have prevented this. This anger might be directed at someone else, where you are so angry that someone else let this happen. You're looking for someone to blame, but it can also be directed at yourself. You might be so angry with yourself, either that you feel the way you feel or you might blame yourself for what happened.
Thirdly, you might be angry at God and you can't believe God let this painful thing happen. Again, anger is such a normal and necessary part of the grieving process. It's those frozen parts of you starting to wake up.
Initially, maybe you felt that denial. You've been avoiding the painful feelings that are associated with grief. Anger is sometimes one of the ways those parts of us start to wake up and break through to the surface. They start looking for someone to blame–either yourself, God, or someone else. If you can notice that and give yourself space to feel that anger, it can really help you move through those emotions and get to the other side.
Number three, you might notice yourself bargaining. This is where your parts of you are trying to regain control. Those painful emotions are starting to show up, and another part of you is starting to bargain with God.
God if I do this, would you do this? Or, if only I had done this, maybe you would have done this. You're trying to find a logic to your grief when you're bargaining, when so often there isn't a logic to the pain that you feel. Again, these are other parts of you that are beginning to wake up.
They're beginning to try to make sense of what happened. They think if you can bargain with God or with other people, or even with yourself, if I can be a better person, maybe I can avoid something like this in the future. Again, this is a necessary part of the process. You need to let yourself move through this bargaining, even as you're aware that this is one part of the overall grieving process.
The fourth stage is depression. This is where you begin to feel the sadness and the sorrow and the emotional pain of what you've experienced. Again, this is a necessary part of the grieving process. It can feel overwhelming. The anger and the denial and the bargaining are there in many ways, trying to protect you from feeling this deep sadness, this deep sorrow inside your soul.
And yet you won't be able to move through the grieving process if you don't also honor the sadness. We talked a little bit in today's episode about how you can honor the sadness with the help of structure and with the help of gentle boundaries so that sadness can be felt without completely taking you over.
Then number five, you move into acceptance. Acceptance doesn't mean that you're okay with what happened. Instead, it means that all of these parts of you, the parts of you that are angry, the parts of you that want to take control through bargaining, the parts of you that are avoiding through denial, and the parts of you that are so sad, reach a sort of truce.
They reach a sort of harmony around the table of your soul. You realize that all of those parts of you are valuable and that you're also finding your way through the pain, finding a way to move forward. That is where this beautiful sixth stage that David has identified, the stage of meaning, can really come into focus.
David describes this work of finding meaning so beautifully. It doesn't replace those other stages; it begins to point to a new way forward that both honors your loss and also honors a new reality.
This holiday season, I pray you'll find a way to honor each of these parts of you in partnership with God's spirit. With all that said, I'm so thrilled to bring you my conversation with David Kessler.
David Kessler is one of the world's foremost experts on grief and loss. He has authored multiple influential books on grief, including On Grief and Grieving and Life Lessons, both of which he co-authored with Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. He also wrote The Needs of the Dying, a book praised by Mother Teresa.
His book, Finding Meaning, is an incredible exploration of what David identifies as the sixth stage of grief. He recently released his highly anticipated workbook, which provides tools for releasing pain and remembering with love. This workbook is a big hit and a beautiful resource.
David has such an incredible story. He has really lived what he teaches. I'm thrilled to bring you my conversation with David Kessler.
***
Alison Cook: This is such a timely topic with so much going on in our world, David. Thank you so much for being here to talk with us about grief and about finding meaning.
David: Absolutely. I'm so excited to be with you, so thank you for having me.
Alison Cook: Your work on grief is so groundbreaking and I really want to get into the sixth phase that you've identified. I'm curious if you'd be willing to share with my listeners, what drew you to this work? How does it grow out of your own personal experiences?
David: I will tell you, I had a challenging childhood with lots of dysfunction. I hold my parents very dear in my heart. They were wounded. They didn't know a way and didn't have the resources we do today to heal. I learned early on that loss takes many forms.
You can feel the loss of safety. You can feel even the loss of your childhood. Then when I was 13, my mother was very sick and went into a hospital hours away. When she was dying, we were at the hotel across the street, and a fire broke out. People started yelling, fire! They evacuated.
We all ran out and on the 18th floor, there were flames coming out of the hotel. The fire trucks pulled up. I was finding it a little exciting at this point because I had been this bored teenager, and then all of a sudden shooting began.
Alison Cook: Oh my.
David: This wasn't just a fire, but also there was an active shooter. It went on for hours. It was one of the first mass shootings in the US. So my father got us out, we went across back to the hotel, back to the hospital, and in a couple of days, my mother died.
I wasn't allowed to be with her. She was in the ICU. I knew at such a young age, that there was a better way. The only advice I got was from a stranger in the staircase who said, “be strong”, which can feel like, “don't have feelings and take care of everyone else”.
The grief was never really mentioned again. I grew up down south, so I dealt with hurricanes and loss and the trauma of these events. I thought I was broken for life. It wasn't until I got to Community College that I realized, oh my gosh. There's a language for this.
I took a class and studied this woman, Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, who had written about these stages: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Little did I know, I would go on to work with her and learn from her and write two books with her. I always hear her whispering in my ear, “tell them the stages aren't linear”.
There's no one right way to do grief. There's no one right way to do this. Grief is an organic process. I always say, we come from a long line of dead people. All our ancestors have died. We know how to do this. It's our society that tells us often we're doing it wrong. So that's what initially got me into my work.
Alison Cook: I love that. Thank you so much for giving us that backdrop. How did you begin to develop this idea for the sixth stage? I love your caveat. I’ve never met Elisabeth, but I find myself also wanting to give that caveat every time I talk about the five stages.
David: Good, good.
Alison Cook: I love that you said that. Somehow you begin to recognize this need for a sixth, also not linear, but another really important piece of the grieving process. Tell us a little bit about how that began to emerge.
David: I have had this amazing, tremendous career of being of service to others and helping, and it has been my privilege. I got to be with Mother Teresa and spend time with her in her home in Calcutta for the dying and destitute. I've worked in a hospital system and was privileged to not only work in and oversee the end of life care and hospice, but also the clergy there and to work with them and see how our faith comes into this and how we can live our lives fully.
Even with the tragedies we had, I was to be of service and help others, and I did that for decades. I thought my personal grief was behind me. It wasn't until out of the blue, my younger son, at 21 years old, died unexpectedly…first of all, I was on the floor. I did not think I would get up.
I had to take my own medicine and go to a grief counselor and go to a grief group and sit in a group with a baseball cap and a group of bereaved parents. My books were on a table five feet away and I couldn't tell anyone that was me. I couldn't be the grief expert. I had to be the father that buried a child.
I also saw myself going through the process. Denial. Yep. Oh, I can't believe my son is gone. I was so angry at life, angry at my son, angry at God. Wait, I've tried to be of service and help people. Why me? Why would you do that? I had to really go there. Of course, with time, I eventually realized, number one, I knew my God was big enough to handle my anger.
I knew that I had seen people go through all these different places in their grief and that there was life on the other end for them. I wasn't sure how I would find it. I saw myself going through depression and bargaining, the guilt, and then I began to wrestle with the fact that I'm going to have to accept this someday.
That idea of accepting it was not enough. I thought, there has to be more. I remember that I had read Viktor Frankl's work on meaning, and I didn't quite understand how meaning and grief played together, because so many times people would trip over, there's no meaning in a horrible death, there's no meaning in all these tragedies we have in our lives, in breakup, divorce, betrayal, tragedy, murder, all these horrible things that happen to us.
What I realized is that meaning isn't in the horrible event–meaning is in us. It's what we do later, what we do after. It didn't take away my pain, but it gave me a cushion. I was so honored that the Elisabeth Kubler-Ross family gave me permission to add a sixth stage to her iconic stages. Because I think we're a generation that wants more–we’re wanting meaning.
Alison Cook: That is powerful. The meaning is not in the horrible set of circumstances. It's in what you do on the other side of that horrible event. That's so powerful. It strikes me, especially for people of faith. There's a ditch on both sides of the road of meaning. If you too quickly go to, “God has a reason for it”. That's not honoring the grief.
But the other side of it is, there's no meaning whatsoever. That can feel very empty and not enough. I love how you've articulated that for us. That's beautiful.
David: I think we have to hold the divine and we have to hold the human experience.
Alison Cook: Yes.
David: An amazing person called me two months in, maybe, and said, how are you doing today? I said, I am so angry! She heard and she said to me, I hear the anger. I hear the anger. She said, would you like to talk about the spiritual aspects of this or the human aspect? I said,
“Both, and start with the human”.
So she listened to me in my anger. She said to me, I'm surprised you're not breaking furniture. I thought, oh my gosh, she sees me. She sees that I could take my couch, my sofa, and snap it in half. She saw my anger and she heard me. I always say, anger is pain's bodyguard. She helped me release that anger in a safe way, in a safe place.
After she listened so lovingly and patiently, she said, are you ready to talk about the spiritual? I said, Yes. She goes, your son, David, can't die. That was his body, but he can't die. He's eternal. Sometimes, we can almost try to bypass the human experience and go right to the spiritual and go, oh, he's always with you. He's in a better place.
And we're feeling like I know that, but I want him here with me.
Alison Cook: Yes, that's so powerful. I love that she asked you that question. That's such a powerful thing for listeners to hear. Do you want to be human right now? Do you want to be human? Or do you want the spiritual? It might be a different answer on different days.
David: Absolutely. If I meet with my minister, I might be looking for the spiritual. That might be the context I'm looking for. Other times, we're in our human experience.
Alison Cook: Yeah. That's so powerful. What would you say, David, for people who feel stuck in an earlier stage? Maybe they can't come out of the anger, the denial, to even get to contemplating meaning. What would you say to those folks?
David: Two things. First of all, there is a reason for that. Maybe you're not supported in your life. Maybe it's not safe enough. There are people around us who say, get over it, move on. Grief takes many forms. It can be the loss of a job. It can be a relationship loss. It can be a pet loss.
There are so many different losses in our life, but people can easily say, get over it. It's often not like a cold or a flu that we recover from. We have to walk through it, and you might not be supported enough.
I have online groups. We have 26 different groups because grief is a unique time. Maybe your best friend, maybe your spouse, maybe your sister, your brother, that person who gets you, who is always there for you, doesn't understand this one.
Grief is a time when family and friends can feel like strangers, and strangers can become family and friends. So if our family doesn't get it, we need to go outside. We need to go to a local group or an online group. We need that. We can get stuck if we don't have that support, that community.
The other thing is, it's so important to understand what stuck means. For example, this side of the continuum is stuck. On the other end over here is chaos–it’s too much change. We were thrown into too much change with this loss, and we bounce all the way into stuck because stuck can feel safe.
Alison Cook: What you're saying reminds me that stuck might be where you need to be for that moment. In the IFS model that we talk about sometimes on the podcast, that part of you is there for a reason, protecting you.
David: That part might be saying, no more change. We're saying, walk forward into your new life. And that part might be saying, no more change. I've had it. We live in a grief illiterate world.
It's interesting. I have a grief certificate program where we train therapists and clergy, and so many coaches and even amazing clergy who are in our programs will say, I got trained on how to visit the sick. I got trained on how to do the funeral. No one taught me how to do the long walk with someone through their grief.
Alison Cook: That is so true. We live in a grief illiterate world. To your point, grief is not the problem. The problem is living in a culture that doesn't create spaces for it. So tell me a little bit more about this workbook that you have out now, David. It really focuses on the meaning part.
What are some of the practical ways you walk someone through this journey of grief, which includes this piece of creating meaning? Again, not necessarily finding meaning in something tragic, but finding meaning in that journey. How do you begin to walk people through that?
David: I almost feel like if I could go back and change the title, I might, because in a lot of ways, the workbook is really about excavating the pain. When you excavate the pain, the meaning gets revealed, but we have to go through the pain.
By the way, you can start with the workbook–you don't have to go back to any of the other books. It starts with telling our stories and realizing there's a way we tell our stories. But then I have the feelings wheel, and here's the thing: we can't heal what we don't feel. And we often think we have three feelings. I'm happy, mad, or sad. That's it.
So people get to choose from all these feelings to see and to understand, number one, we have judgment on our feelings. I do a lot of work there in uncovering the judgment. When I say to people, you have judgment on your feelings or grief, they're like, no, I don't.
But they'll go, I'm not crying enough. I'm crying too much. Those are actually judgments. They'll go, I should be further along. Oooh, that's a judgment. We're the first generation that has the luxury of feelings on feelings. We'll go, I'm angry, but anger is inappropriate. I'm sad, but there are worse things in the world. We have all these feelings that we sort of half-feel and throw behind us.
People say to me, if I start crying, I'll never stop. I'll say, oh dear one, I've sat with thousands of people. Everyone stops crying. We might cry again, but everyone stops crying. These feelings want to be felt. Feelings are not facts. They're information. They want to be felt. And then we go to the next feeling.
One of the tricks our mind plays with us that's so cruel, is our mind will make us feel like this feeling is final. You're devastated, and that's the rest of your life. You're broken hearted forever. You're lonely, always. Those may not be true.
Alison Cook: Do you think, David, that community or groups are essential for that kind of grief work, that feeling the feelings part? Or can somebody do that in the privacy of their own journal, in the privacy of their own prayer life? I'm curious about that, because I also think sometimes people are nervous about exposing raw feelings to other people.
David: That's one of my purposes in doing this. Because like I said, I wanted it to feel like we're at your kitchen table. I have an amazing co-author on this book. It's the person who sits down with it. They get to put their thoughts, their feelings, their heartbreak down on paper. They get to experience it, and they get to witness their own grief and see their pain. It helps us feel less alone.
Alison Cook: I love that. I love that. This could actually be one of your companions, this place that you've created where there's some structure to it. Somebody who knows what they're doing laid this out for me, and can help those parts of you that are nervously thinking, if I go there, I never will come back. No, I can do two pages today.
David: My goodness, there are some big open ended questions in the workbook, but there are also checklists. You could sit down in two minutes and go, oh, I didn't realize that. There's a place you could mark, do I have shame in my grief? There are some really easy exercises for someone who's afraid to open that book.
Alison, here's one of the challenges. Someone said to me, I bought the workbook, but I'm not ready to open it. I said, okay, I'm curious. Can you tell me more about that? She said, yes, I don't want to open the pain. I said to her, oh, if only you could skip the pain by not opening the book.
If only you could put that workbook in the closet, on a shelf with your pain. But the pain is not in the workbook. It's in you. The workbook is a way to move the pain from you
Alison Cook: That's so well stated. We treat it like a little box. Once we begin to do that, open the pain in ourselves through these questions, through excavating the pain, what's the alchemy? How does that process work? How might meaning begin to flow from that, in your experience?
Is it something that begins to take shape through looking at the pain? Tell me a little bit about what it begins to open us up to.
David: There are a few guidelines in there to help us think about this. There are seven of them. One, meaning is relative and personal. Two, meaning takes time. You may not find it for months or years after a loss. Three, meaning doesn't require understanding. It isn't necessary to understand why someone died in order to find the meaning.
So many times we get stuck in the why. I need a why to find my healing, to move through this grief. There are so many times in life where there isn't a why. Many times we end up getting a why. Maybe the doctor tells us why they died, what happened to their body. I tell people, even when you get a why, it's not a satisfying why. So we don't need the why to find the meaning.
Four, even when you do find your meaning, it won't be worth the cost. We'd always rather have our loved one back. I could become the greatest bestseller of all time, and I'd rather have my son.
Alison Cook: Yeah.
David: Five, and this is an important one, your loss is not a test, a lesson, something to handle, a gift, or a blessing. Loss is what happens in life. Meaning is what you make happen after the loss. Six, only you can find your own meaning. Seven, meaningful connections will heal painful memories.
I think people can easily get lost in that fifth one. It's not a lesson. It's not a blessing. So many times, people say to me, David, my family is cursed. I say, oh my gosh, tell me why. Oh, the grandparents have all died, there was a cousin, we've had so many deaths. I say, do you know what the death rate is in your family compared to others?
Oh, I'm sure we're high. What is the death rate in families? I said, 100%. On planet Earth, it has been designed, as far as I can see, that everyone who lives, dies someday. When we can recognize that that's the mystery and the way this world is set up, and be present in that and not fight with the reality, we can find a different life.
Alison Cook: It's a paradox, isn't it?
David: It is a paradox.
Alison Cook: There's life in making peace with the reality of death. What a paradox.
David: It's a strange thing. I live in a really sweet, cute little neighborhood. I ran into someone that I hadn't seen in a while. We worked together 30 years ago and she lives fairly close. She goes, oh, I've been following your work over the years and your career and all that. She goes, I'd like to be friends, but it would be too depressing. I said to her, that's okay. But you know, I don't have a depressed life. I have a really full life.
Here's where it's hard to understand. Most of my work now is online. But back in the day, when I would go to a hotel meeting room that had a few hundred people, I'd be teaching. Down the hall would be the realtors. Around the corner would be the nurses, then there'd be the Rotary Club.
After the day was over, the staff would say, hey, what were you teaching? I'd go, oh, why do you ask? They'd go, because your group was laughing the most. They'd go, wait a minute, I don't understand, what were you teaching? I'd go, grief. Now they're really confused.
Here's what people don't understand. Everyone in that room who had been through loss is confused. Many were helpers learning how to continue to help people. They absolutely had to go deeper into their pain. But what we don't realize is their bandwidth was also expanded for joy.
They laughed a little harder. We understand now, the most precious thing we have is our time. And when we hear this idea of meaning, we think, oh, is it a charity I'm supposed to start? What am I supposed to do? I tell people, meaning can be in those big events, but meaning is also in the small moments. This is one, we have to name it. This is a meaningful moment.
Someone might be listening that needs to hear this, or have someone they know that needs to hear this, to name those moments of meaning.
Alison Cook: I love that. I feel that. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for what you've done here. I have two questions for you, David, that I like to ask all my guests. The first one is, if you could go back and say something to that young boy in the hotel room, what would you want him to know now?
David: You're going to be okay. You're going to get through this. You're going to be okay.
Alison Cook: I love that. What's bringing out the best of you right now?
David: Walking with people through these tough times to help them find the light again.
Alison Cook: Where can we find more about your work, the workbook, and all that you're doing to help people journey through grief?
David: If you go to grief.com, you can find information on the workbook, all my books, as well as my Tender Hearts online grief program, the grief educator certificate program, and lots of free resources.
Alison Cook: It's really amazing. You're shining your light for so many people in, as you said, a world that doesn't always honor the genuineness of this process. It's something we all have to do on some level. It's normal. It doesn't mean it's easy, but I appreciate all that you're doing to help so many people. I appreciate your time coming on here today.
David: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Do you feel like you’re constantly caring for others, whether it’s aging parents, your kids, or even your career—and there’s little time left for you?
Women in the sandwich generation, particularly those aged 35-54, report higher stress levels than any other age group. If you’re juggling a heavy load of responsibilities as you care for others, you’re not alone. In this episode, you’ll gain practical tools to help you navigate this season with compassion and healthy boundaries, empowering you with the support and nourishment you need.
Here's what we cover:
* Why caring for others can stir up unresolved emotions and how to address them
* 3 key strategies to help you through stressful seasons
* The antidote for constant guilt
* How to set boundaries that protect your emotional well-being
* Practical ways to invite God into your daily routine
Resources:
- I Shouldn’t Feel This Way by Dr. Alison Cook
- PDF Questions for Reflection: 5 Steps to Calm Overwhelming Emotions
- The Best of You by Dr. Alison Cook
If you liked this, you’ll love:
- Episode 6: Do I Really Have an Inner Child? What It Means to Reparent Yourself
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Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author. While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Transcript:
Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I'm so glad you're here this week as we dive into a brand new topic. It's a topic we've never covered before on the podcast, but whenever I survey you or ask you what topics you'd like me to cover, this one today comes up.
The first way it comes up is simply taking care of aging parents. But then the second way it comes up is, how do I care for emotionally immature parents who neglected me, who weren't there for me when I was young? And now I have to take care of them.
This topic of caring for our own parents as they age also comes up in the context of, “I'm still raising my own kids”. I'm still trying to figure out how to launch my own kids, let alone heal myself, let alone care for my own parents.
Now there's a term for this. The term is “sandwich generation". This refers to adults who are simultaneously caring for their aging parents while supporting their own children. This could include young children, teenage children, or even young adult children. The point is, you're in a dual caregiving role.
You're sandwiched between two different generations who have a lot of needs and these needs are very different. The needs of your aging parents or your in-laws are very different from the needs of your children, whom you're trying to launch. Being a part of this sandwich generation presents a lot of really unique stressors as you can feel stuck between all the needs around you.
Some of you listening are still raising young kids. Maybe you're managing the morning chaos of packing lunches for your six year old or helping your nine year old finish a last minute school project. There's a lot of hands-on needs.
Meanwhile, you're also beginning to coordinate doctor's appointments, maybe for your mom or for your dad. Maybe they're starting to show signs of memory loss, or they have a condition that's developing. They might need your attention or your support, or they might need help with groceries or bills or getting health care insurance figured out.
Some of you listening might be launching young adult children. Maybe you've got a child who's off at college and while they're no longer under your roof, you're still very well aware that they're dealing with a lot of anxiety or a lot of social or academic stressors, and you're still very involved.
They still take up a lot of your mental capacity. Your parenting work is certainly not over once your kids go off to college. Maybe you even have kids who are out of college, who are working their first jobs, who are maybe getting engaged, maybe getting married, maybe starting to have children of their own.
Again, your work as a parent is still not finished. In fact, some of these major life decisions that our young adult children are making require even more of our mental bandwidth and emotional support, as they really need our help guiding them through some high-stakes decisions.
All the while, on the other side of it, you might have a parent or an in-law who's lost a spouse, and so they're dealing with a lot of new norms in their life. Maybe they're more lonely, there might be moves, there might be new financial issues that emerge as your parents age.
Some of you maybe don't have kids and yet you're still carrying the stress of figuring out, how am I going to care for my parents? I finally maybe got the life that I've wanted to have. And now I have to figure out how to take on their needs.
So no matter what your situation is, as you're listening, this sandwich generation, where you're looking at needs, both of the next generation coming up behind you and the older generation, the one ahead of you, it stirs up a lot of complicated emotions.
Today, I want to follow the framework that I lay out in my book, I Shouldn’t Feel This Way, this framework for navigating complicated emotions. Number one, we're going to name what's hard.
Naming what's really happening, both inside of ourselves, the emotions that we're feeling, in addition to the realities of the new stressors in our lives, can really help validate the reality of what you're experiencing.
As interpersonal neurobiologist Dr. Dan Siegel says, when you name something, you can tame it. It literally stops the firing of the emotional circuitry in your brain, and it helps you tap into the ordering part of your brain.
So you've named it. You can see it. This is what's happening now. I know what it is. It allows that prefrontal cortex, that part of your brain that can start making meaning that can start creating order, to come online. You start to bring order out of chaos.
We're going to do some naming work, and then we're going to do some framing work. In particular, I want to help you create a way to reframe the demands and stressors and complexities of what it means to be in these caretaking roles.
Lastly, I'm going to give you three strategies so you can brave a path through honoring your own needs, where you can love and honor others without losing yourself.
The bottom line is that navigating the sandwich generation where you're caring for your aging parents while supporting your own children is a complex and emotional journey, but it's also an opportunity. It's an opportunity to create healthier patterns for yourself and for your own family.
I'm going to walk you through how to turn this really challenging season into an opportunity to go even deeper into this work of figuring out how to honor your own needs while providing meaningful care for others, all without losing yourself.
Number one, we're going to start by naming what's hard. So, first of all, let's talk about some of the unique challenges and stressors and emotions that being part of this sandwich generation can stir up inside of us.
The first one is guilt. Often, when we struggle with too many caretaking responsibilities, we start to beat ourselves up. Guilt can get really loud. You might start to notice messages like, what's wrong with me? Why can't I get it together? Why is this so hard when it doesn't seem like it's hard for anyone else? I'm not organized enough, I'm not giving enough, I'm too selfish, whatever the thing is.
Often when we have too many caretaking responsibilities, it can kick up a lot of guilt. I say this a lot, but I'm going to say it again. The presence of guilt does not always mean you've done something wrong. It might mean you're doing something brave, something uncomfortable, something hard.
Guilt is an emotion. It is not necessarily a direct message from God. When we're overwhelmed and we have too much on our plate and when there are more needs than would be humanly possible for us to meet, guilt often steps in like an old clingy friend. The truth is, guilt is often masking other more vulnerable emotions.
Guilt is so closely tied to grief. It's so closely tied to fear. It's so closely tied to helplessness. It comes up when what we're actually feeling is overwhelm and helplessness. This is so hard. We don't know how to face those more vulnerable feelings. Sometimes it's easier for a part of us to constantly berate and guilt trip ourselves.
It can feel easier in some ways to beat ourselves up, as if we could be doing better than we are, than to face the reality of those more vulnerable emotions, which is “this is hard, this is painful, I'm struggling, I'm scared, I’m lonely”. So often, those more vulnerable emotions are hiding underneath the constant guilt, especially when we're overwhelmed.
Secondly, you may notice more anxiety, a constant feeling of being unsettled, chaotic, not able to really find that calm, clear place inside, that deep breath where you can really exhale at some point during your day.
Maybe you notice that you have a hard time going to sleep at night or your thoughts are racing. You're finding it hard to wind down and rest or relax or log off for a little bit. There's too much on your mind. Oftentimes, when you have a lot of these caretaking responsibilities, you'll see an uptick in some of that anxiety.
You might notice more stress in your body. Maybe you feel more agitated, like you're more inclined to go into that fight flight response. There's a good reason for that stress. The American Psychological Association notes that especially women who are part of the sandwich generation, particularly those who are aged 35 to 54, report significantly higher stress levels than any other age group.
This stress might be about managing time. How do I get everything done that I need to get done today? It might be the fatigue of managing complicated medical appointments, phone calls, attending school events for children, driving children, and also sometimes aging parents.
You might be worried about how to keep your own job while you're taking care of all the people who need you in your life. Oftentimes, there's a financial strain as caregivers face increased expenses related to health care, and their own kids' education. All of this can impact your own financial stability and your own retirement planning.
So there's a lot of added stress that can start to ratchet up the cortisol, where you're having a harder time finding rest, finding calm, finding those moments of deep exhale. And this can creep up on you. It doesn't happen overnight, but suddenly, and this gets to our last thing that you might notice–numbing.
You might start noticing that you've resorted to old patterns from the past. Maybe even patterns that you thought you'd kicked, patterns that you thought were well behind you, but suddenly maybe you notice yourself reaching for the extra glass of wine or reaching for the extra bag of cookies or binge watching Netflix more than you have been for a long time, or trying to drown out your own feelings in whatever way that you can.
You might notice those behaviors and then that leads you right back up to the guilt. You might feel guilty. What's wrong with me? Why can't I get it together?
But the reality is that the overwhelm that you're facing is real. It's not your fault. Something's happened that is hard. There's a lot on your plate. There are a lot of demands on your time. Of course, you're overwhelmed. Of course, you're trying to find quick ways to soothe yourself late at night.
Of course, you cannot bear to make one more phone call to a doctor on your to do list. Of course, you're getting short fused with your own kids or with your own parents. This is normal when we're overwhelmed. And beating yourself up and shaming yourself doesn't help. If there's nothing else you take away today from this episode, it's that you are not alone.
There are millions of other women in particular who are feeling the same way that you feel, and I wish we could all get together and sit around a table for a minute and share what's hard about caring for other people, the fatigue that we feel, the frustration, and even sometimes the grief.
It can feel like time is passing us by, and it can feel like we're on a hamster wheel instead of fully able to enjoy these seasons of our lives. If we were gathered together, we would probably cry out so many of our frustrations. And then I know without a doubt what we would do.
We would get busy figuring out how to help each other find a better way through. Since we can't all get together, I want to spend the next portion of this episode talking you through some practical strategies or ways that you can begin to find some peace out of all these crazy pieces of your life, to find some calm out of all the chaos.
I want to give you what I call a holy reframe. In I Shouldn’t Feel This Way, I walk you through how to create them. It's a way of examining all the complexity of what's hard and creating a bigger, more robust, understanding of the situation. And what I think is sometimes the most powerful way to reframe a hard situation is this reality that two things can be true.
This is incredibly hard. And, there's an invitation here for me, for my own healing and growth.
I'm frustrated with all the people who need me and I want to do right by them.
I need more space for myself and I want to show up for the people I love.
As you begin to honor the both-and, you create a bigger frame. You create more spaciousness inside your soul. I'm frustrated and I'm committed.
I'm scared I don't have what it takes, and I have confidence I can get through this.
I'm mad at myself and I see how hard I'm working
You slow yourself down and you start to make room for all of what's true about your situation. When we're dealing with so many legitimate needs all around us, it really becomes a crucible. If you think about that word crucible and what it means, I like to think of it in terms of pottery.
For those of you who are into pottery, you'll know what I mean. But when you create a carefully shaped item out of clay, maybe you create a beautiful mug, and it looks really cool and you've gotten it exactly how you want, the next thing you do is you take that creation and you put it in what's called a kiln.
That kiln exposes that object you've created to extreme heat. And that heat transforms the clay into something really strong and durable. When that mug comes out of the kiln and it's survived all that heat and that extreme pressure, it actually becomes more resilient, more durable.
It's ready for everyday use. You can use it every single day and it becomes something really precious. If you never put that mug in the kiln, it would stay really fragile and it would easily crumble. It wouldn't have a lot of use to yourself or to other people.
Similarly, a crucible in our lives represents a challenging situation, like being the caregiver for a lot of different people. When you're in that situation, there's pressure applied. You can feel pressure from everybody around you. But if you're smart about how you walk through that crucible, it can ultimately strengthen you and shape you into an even more vibrant, more resilient, more refined version of yourself.
When you're in this sandwich generation, you're under a lot of emotional, relational, and logistical pressure, and that can start to feel like it's going to break you. When you really honor that process, and you do some of the things we're going to talk about today, it can help you dig even deeper into personal growth.
You can learn how to take even better care of yourself, have even stronger boundaries with other people, and learn to heal parts of you that are going to come up to the surface as a result of the pressure. This process can be used for good.
Now, I’m not saying it's easy. I do not want to minimize what you're going through. And, I want to encourage you that as you name what's hard and you frame your reality and you apply some of the steps we're going to talk about today, you can come through this season, this fire, this crucible, even stronger than you were before.
Here are three primary strategies I want you to think about as you imagine yourself in this crucible, in this high pressure situation that you're in. I'm going to give you three words to orient yourself as you think about how to allow this challenging season to do its work for good inside of you.
Number one: re-parenting. Crucibles are an opportunity for your own healing. It may not feel that way, but I'm going to show you how that's true.
Number two: boundaries. A crucible is an amazing opportunity to take inventory of your own boundary lines and get crystal clear about them. You do not have the margin during this season to take on anything that is not yours to take on, and so this is your chance. If you've ever wanted to really work on your boundaries, this is the time to do it.
And then number three: surrender. What I mean by that term surrender is the spiritual antidote to guilt. Surrender is the spiritual antidote to guilt. You're going to work on reparenting. You're going to work on your boundaries, and then you're going to let it all go and surrender. That's how you ultimately beat the guilt.
So number one, what do I mean by reparenting? Well, the work of caregiving for others, whether it's our kids or our own parents, often is a seedbed for reactivating our own wounds. Often when we're caring for our own children, there are really beautiful opportunities to do things differently. We can do for our own kids the things that were never done for us.
And that can be really life giving as a parent, to reparent the parts of you through providing for your own kids the things that you yearned to have for yourself. But here's the thing. As you also step into caring for your own parents as they age, it is another opportunity for you to reparent parts of you.
Often, as our parents age, their old patterns get magnified. So if you have a parent who likes to guilt trip you or criticize you or constantly give you advice, those patterns are going to intensify. Or if you have a parent who is in avoidance, who doesn't like to deal directly with their physical ailments, or who doesn't like to deal directly with conflict or who is in denial about their own emotions, that is also going to intensify as they age.
Those patterns don't tend to go away. They tend to intensify as people age, and so you're going to be right back in that proverbial soup in which you were cooked, where mom is criticizing you or dad is in complete denial about his needs.
You're going to feel frustrated, you're going to feel annoyed, you're going to notice old parts of you come to the surface that you may not have seen for a long time. You might start noticing that fawn response, where you start trying to please them in order to avoid their criticism, in order to avoid their irritation.
Parts of you are going to be like, what is wrong with me? I am an adult. Why am I defaulting to this old childlike behavior with my parent? It's so normal, please hear me say. And it is an opportunity for even deeper healing, if you notice that irritation, that agitation, maybe you're going into fight mode more, maybe you notice yourself going into that people pleasing mode more.
You want to shut it out, even though other parts of you feel that you actually need to show up for your parent right now, no matter what they did or didn't do in the past. So you've got to deal with a part that wants to check out and not deal with this. This is an opportunity to re-parent that part of you that's showing up.
How do you do that?
The first thing you do is get curious about it. Notice it without shame. What's the impulse that you're noticing? For example, I can't stop pleasing my mom. I can't say no to her, even when I know it's not logical. I wonder what that's about. Or I am so irritable with my dad! I don't want to be, but I am. I want to get curious about that.
That part of me is like a child trying to scurry around to make mom happy. I wonder what that's about. What is she afraid would happen if I say to my mom, I can't do this today. I'll get back to you tomorrow. What is she afraid would happen if dad was irritated with me?
And then notice, where do you feel that impulse, that urge in your body? Are you hunched over? Are you tense? How old does that part of you feel? Is she 16 afraid of getting in trouble? Is she a five year old part of you afraid of losing their love?
It is so normal for these young parts of you to show back up in these stressful situations. Get curious about those parts of you.
Number two, extend those parts of you compassion. You want to let those parts of you know, I get it. Dad's temper was scary back then. Mom's criticism hurts. It is hard to feel like I can't make them happy. Whatever it is that those parts of you feel, honor the validity of those feelings.
Simultaneously, let those parts of you know that you're here now and that you know how to manage yourself and your parents in ways those young parts of you never did. Update them about all the things you've accomplished in your adult life, that you know how to speak up for yourself.
If someone is criticizing you, you know how to set healthy boundaries and tell someone, no, I can't help you with that right now. I'll get back to you in a couple of days when I can. Let those parts of you know that there's an adult in the room who can handle this and that they don't have to.
You might ask yourself, what are those parts of me afraid might happen in this moment, if I don't get it right, if I don't make everyone happy, if I can't solve the problems in front of me? If I can't make all of my family members content at all times, what am I afraid might happen? Am I afraid of losing love? Am I afraid of being a failure? What am I afraid might happen?
Honor the fears that come up. And then as you're noticing these parts of you that are anxious or scared or stressed out or fearful, what might happen if you invite God to be with those parts of you? What burdens from long ago need to be released into the arms of God?
Do they need to release any burdens of wanting to be perfect, of wanting to earn love, of wanting to keep the peace at all costs, of feeling responsible for everybody else's problems? Imagine yourself letting go of those burdens and taking a deep breath.
As you work with these young parts of yourself, you're learning to reparent yourself in ways. These parts of you need you to show up for them. They need you to make time for them every single day to ensure that you're not placing burdens on them that were never theirs to bear.
You will take care of these other people in your life. You will. But you will care for them so much more wisely, more strategically, more sustainably, if you first tend to these tender, vulnerable, young parts who still live inside of you.
This work of reparenting yourself is a practice every single day, and I've got some resources for you, some questions that might be helpful for you. I will post a link in this episode’s show notes, where you can do some work of tending to these young parts of you who show up in the face of overwhelm, especially when you're giving out so much care to others.
Number two: boundaries. As you do that inner work of identifying misplaced burdens that were never yours to bear, you're also going to want to set some external boundaries to help safeguard some spaciousness for yourself. You will not be able to meet all of these needs around you if you don't take some time to renegotiate your external boundaries.
Some practical ways to do that, number one, I want you to think about making a weekly self-care appointment. That could be with a therapist. It could be with a pastor. It could be with a spiritual director. It could be with a sibling or a good friend. But I want you to set aside some time regularly to check-in with someone about your own needs.
When you're caring for a lot of other people, it's incredibly important to make sure that you set apart time for someone else to check in on you. Number two, you might need some sort of daily practice such as journaling, where you give yourself space to write out all the things you feel you don't want to lose touch with yourself.
Often what I'll say to people is, set a timer. Don't overwhelm yourself. 10 minutes every day, five minutes every day, to write down your stream of consciousness. This is hard. I'm struggling. I'm mad at these people. I hate this. Whatever it is that you're feeling, give yourself permission to feel it.
And then number three, make a list of all your commitments, including the caregiving commitments that are in front of you. I want you to rank them and I want you to cut out the commitments that are not essential. Especially those things that are not life-giving.
Now's the time to cull your schedule. If there are a few things you've got lingering on and you don't really enjoy it, you don't really feel called to it anymore, maybe you've taken on an optional responsibility at work that you could let go of. Maybe you're doing some volunteer work or you're on a committee at church and you feel responsible for it.
But honestly, it's hard. It's a drag on your time and you don't have the bandwidth for it right now. Now's the time. Now's the time to take that off your plate and to say the hard no’s. You've got a lot you need to say yes to in your life right now. So you've got to get extra clear about your no’s. I have a ton of resources about how to figure out your yes’ and no's in my book, The Best of You, if you want to go deeper on that. It's a super practical resource on boundary setting.
Now's the time to cull if there are relationships that are a drain. Now might be the time to say to that person, I care about you and I have so much on my plate that you may not hear from me for a while. And I want you to know that this is what I've got going on. I may not be available.
So this is a time with boundary setting to schedule time for yourself intentionally. To make sure you've got some sort of daily practice where you're giving yourself permission to feel what you feel, such as journaling.
Number three, culling your schedule and taking things off that you don't have the bandwidth for. You're increasing the amount of time with people and activities that are life-giving for you and you are decreasing the amount of time with the people and activities that are life-draining for you.
Lastly, this word surrender. God meets us when we are hurting the most. God meets us in our overwhelm. Now, listen, we have to do our part. We have to work at our boundaries, we have to work at our inner lives, at reparenting ourselves, and noticing what's going on inside of us.
That's our part of the equation. But the third part is God's. And God meets us when we are overwhelmed. God meets us, especially as folks who are giving so much care to others. And that word surrender, it doesn't mean we're giving up. In fact, I believe surrender is the antidote to false guilt.
Guilt tells us, I'm letting everybody down. But surrender says, I am limited, but God is big enough for all of us.
Guilt tells us, I have to be perfect, but surrender says, I'll never be perfect. And God's grace is enough.
Guilt tells us, I should be doing more, but surrender says, I'll give it my best and I'll trust God with the rest.
The antidote to guilt is a radical acceptance of our dependence on a good and kind God. It's choosing to bravely work out what we can, what is in our control, and leaving the rest to God. God, I don't want to disappoint this other person. I don't want to make a mistake. I don't want to let anyone down.
But I have to be brave. I have to make decisions. I have to live within the limits of my finances, of my time, of my own humanity. There is a profound shift that happens when we surrender, when we glimpse the end of ourselves and we reach the boundaries of our own capacity. A moment of surrender is quite possibly one of the most profound moments we experience this side of heaven.
It's not that our challenges magically resolve themselves. It's that when we become aware of our own frailties, of our own finitude, of our own human limitations, we discover that that's where God loves to enter in. It's where we stumble upon a deeper strength, one that doesn't come from inside of us. It's bigger than that.
We're doing everything in our power, and yet these problems are too much for us at times. We've reflected, we've prayed, we've journaled, we've set boundaries. We've done our part. We throw ourselves into the arms of grace and in that moment of surrender, all that mental work, all that anguish, all that stress, all that worry comes grinding to a halt.
We stop. We breathe. We release our grip. And in that moment, something miraculous happens. Our loving God, who has been there all along, breaks through a little bit. That divide between where we are and where God is disappears for a moment, and our minds calm. Something inside our body shifts. We take a break.
We take a walk. We might call a friend. We might let the tears fall, dance to a favorite song, or laugh out loud at the absurdity of this life at times. And then we get back up, and with God's help, we take it one brave step at a time.
If you are feeling overwhelmed by the needs of everyone around you, you're sandwiched between caring for different generations, including your own soul, right in the middle of it all, I want you to remember these three words: re-parenting, boundaries, and surrender.
Reparenting turns pressure and stress into an opportunity to nurture and care for the younger parts of you that still carry wounds from the past. When caregiving triggers those old fears or reactions, it's an invitation to pause and get curious.
What is this part of me afraid might happen? As you show compassion for those younger parts of you and invite God to be near, you'll begin to care for yourself even as you give out care to others.
Boundaries will help you navigate this season with strength and clarity. Setting limits doesn't mean you love others less. It means protecting your capacity so you can give out in a sustainable way. Sustainable boundaries will help you avoid burnout and allow you to care for others in legitimate ways without sacrificing your own wellbeing.
Lastly, surrender. No matter how hard we try, we can't fix everything or control the outcomes for other people. Surrender invites us to release what is not ours to control and trust that God is present in the midst of the mess. It's about doing your best and letting go of the rest, knowing that God's grace has no limits.
In my experience, God loves to surprise us by showing up in those moments when we feel the most defeated, the most overwhelmed, when we throw ourselves into the arms of his love and his kindness. He reminds us that we're never actually alone. And he cares so much more than we do about these other people and about the parts of our own souls in need of his care.
Do the holidays bring a mix of joy and complicated emotions for you?
We're "supposed" to feel grateful, and parts of us do. But other parts of us feel nostalgic, driven by guilt, exhausted, or even angry. In this honest, vulnerable conversation, author and spiritual director Anjuli Paschall joins me to explore the emotions that surface during the holiday season. We talk about how to navigate these feelings with grace for ourselves, and how these emotions can be gifts in disguise. We cover. . .
Here’s what we cover:
* How to distinguish between true guilt and false guilt
* The surprising connection between anger and exhaustion
* Why nostalgia can be both comforting and bittersweet
* Practical ways to honor all your feelings during this emotionally complex season
* Anjuli’s practice of praying through complicated emotions and finding God’s presence in them
Resources:
- Feel: A Collection of Liturgies Offering Hope for Every Complicated Emotion by Anjuli Paschall
- I Shouldn’t Feel This Way by Dr. Alison Cook
- Lovealways.anjuli on Instagram
- anjulipaschall.com
If you liked this, you’ll love:
- Episode 30: Protecting What’s Good Without Denying What’s Hard at the Holidays
Thanks to our sponsors:
- Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
- Go to thrivemarket.com/bestofyou for 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift!
- Whether you're exploring distant lands or enjoying a staycation at home, Cozy Earth has your back. Visit cozyearth.com and unlock an exclusive 35% off with code BESTOFYOU.
Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author. While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Transcript:
Alison Cook: Hey, everyone, and welcome to this very special Thanksgiving episode of The Best of You Podcast. I am so thrilled to be with you on this special day and the days that follow Thanksgiving for this well-timed episode.
I recorded this conversation a while back and realized it was the perfect episode to share with you today. This is a day when we often feel like we should feel all the things, like gratitude, joy, peace, and serenity. But the truth is, other emotions often show up on the holidays.
It's so normal to feel a variety of different emotions on a day like Thanksgiving, or the day after Thanksgiving, or days when your kids are not at school, or days when you're spending lots of time with family members that you love, but also bring up complicated feelings inside of you.
In honor of all the emotions you might be feeling this Thanksgiving, I'm thrilled to invite you into this conversation I had with Anjuli Paschall. She's a spiritual director and she's written a beautiful book called Feel: A Collection of Liturgies Offering Hope for Every Complicated Emotion.
What I love about this resource is she goes through 75 different emotions, offering a way to name them and also a way to bring those different emotions into your conversation with God. If you've read my book, I Shouldn’t Feel This Way, I talk about the importance of naming tools.
We need ways to name the different things that we feel. Sometimes it's so elusive. We don't even really recognize the uncomfortable feeling or sensation that's tugging at the corner of our soul. We don't even realize we're feeling it until after we've had a meltdown or after we've lashed out at someone or after the day is over, oh my gosh, I was agitated all day long.
In this book, she's offering you a way into your different emotions so that you can take charge of your emotions, not the other way around.
I found this conversation with Anjuli to be so therapeutic for my own soul. We dive into three emotions in particular that tend to surface unbidden at the holidays. We talk about guilt, including true guilt versus false guilt.
We talk about nostalgia, which is such an interesting emotion. I loved what Anjuli and I stumbled upon as we talked about the role of nostalgia in our lives. we also talk about anger, which often shows up unexpectedly spoiler alert.
It's closely linked to exhaustion. it's so important to recognize the tug of anger on our soul before it takes us over.
This is a beautiful conversation. That's real. It's raw. also deeply prayerful. I love the language through which Anjuli honors these emotions, even as she's constantly bringing them into conversation with God.
I am thrilled to bring you my conversation with Anjuli Pascal.
***
Alison Cook: Anjuli, I am so thrilled that you are here today. I'm so thrilled to have this conversation with you. You've written this beautiful book, all about feelings. I'm so curious to dive into a little bit of your own relationship with feelings. You talk about how we want to avoid, run away from, and control them. You also talk about wanting to indulge certain feelings.
Tell me a little bit about your younger self, whether it was your early twenties, before you had kids, or as an early young mom. What has your relationship with your emotions been like in the past?
Anjuli: Yeah, that is a great question. I grew up in a pretty typical evangelical church and home. My parents were very connected to ministry and so I grew up really with this idea that there are good feelings and bad feelings. The good feelings are happiness, creativity, joy, and then bad feelings like anger and fear, even disgust.
I spent a lot of my life focusing on how to get to the good feelings. Because I even grew up thinking that anger and fear and disgust were sinful too. In my childhood, I was so happy. It was this optimism, happiness, and focus on good things. If anything bad comes up inside of me, get rid of it, or something's wrong with me, or it's sin.
It took a lot of time to start unpacking, realizing that feelings are not bad or good, they're true. They're not always right, but they're true.
Alison Cook: Say a little bit more about that. What do you mean by that? I could hear some folks going, what do you mean by true? Let's say I'm feeling really mad at a friend or really resentful of someone. How can that be true?
Anjuli: That feeling is a true feeling. I recently went through an experience where there was a lot of misunderstanding in a relationship. The feeling of being misunderstood is very uncomfortable. It is a true feeling. But it's not necessarily right. There could be different causes or different reasons, or I don't know the whole story. I can interpret the feeling incorrectly. But the feeling itself is true.
Alison Cook: I think you're saying something so wise. The feeling is something to be honored. There's something true, and we can misinterpret the feeling. I might feel misunderstood because my friend in fact misunderstood me. I might feel misunderstood and she in fact did understand me and I didn't understand her reply to me.
Anjuli: I think it has taken a lot of work to untangle the family dynamics that I grew up in, but also untangle some of the messages that I heard from the pulpit or from church, well-intended or not. I came to believe if it's good, present it, speak it, perform it. If it's bad, stuff it, ignore it, pretend it isn't there.
That really got me in a world of trouble. It works when you're young, you can get away with pretending and performing, but eventually it catches up with you. I think probably in my mid-twenties, it really caught up with me. Turns out you can't really outrun anger. Turns out you can't really stuff fear.
It'll catch up with you eventually. My mid-twenties when I was actually in seminary, and I had to confront these feelings that had been stuffed for so long. It really felt like a serious breakdown. You can only keep that ball underwater for so long until it then becomes like a bomb. That's what it felt like, this bomb going off inside of me.
Until I was really doing some internal deep dive work and letting some of those feelings that had been ignored or suppressed come up, was I able to actually find integration in a healthy way.
Alison Cook: That makes so much sense. You hit that rock bottom of the overwhelm of the feeling, and there's no way out but through. I love that you're saying that you began to untangle the knots of your emotions. Then you go into becoming a mom. You're also a spiritual director.
In both of those roles, similar to me as a therapist, our job in many ways is to keep our feelings on the back burner, as we are present to the feelings of others, whether it's our kids, whether it's someone you're mentoring, a spiritual directee, someone you're sitting with for me as a therapist.
It's my job to keep my feelings a little bit in the back as I am helping others navigate their way through feelings. I think that's a really interesting role where you're learning to honor your own feelings, but not necessarily have them be front and center in some of those roles. How do you navigate that inside of yourself as you try to stay healthy emotionally, internally?
Anjuli: That's a really great question. I would say it looked a lot like stumbling. It looked a lot like confusion. It looked a lot like the question, what's wrong with me? I think especially becoming a mom, I had already done so much previous training in soul care. I thought, I know what I'm doing. I have all these tools now.
Becoming a mom really was a shift for me. It took some time to integrate real life with heart knowledge. I think what really became the outlet for me is honesty. Because you know about all the shoulds. And, becoming a mom, I should be happy. I should love every minute of this. I should be grateful. I should not want another life.
I bumped up against all these “shoulds” when I had 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 kids. Especially when I had one or two kids, I noticed how lonely I was, but I shouldn't be lonely. Because this is my dream. This is what I've always wanted. But I'd go to parks and just, I remember being weepy.
It seems like everybody else is having the best time pushing their kid on the swing while I'm over here being like, this is slow, boring work. I don't really know how to play. I don't know how to do this motherhood thing.
When I say honesty, Alison, I’m talking about those feelings of loneliness and sadness and grief and even some helplessness and connecting to my feelings. Being honest with them and actually feeling them, giving myself permission to feel them and then to speak them, be it online or with my friend or at my MOPS group table, it actually became the means for intimacy and connection with other people.
I guess I wouldn't look at it like I'm attending to others as one thing and I attend to myself as another thing, but as I attend to myself and my heart and honor that, I'm actually able to attend to others and my kids and make space for them in a much better way.
Alison Cook: Attuning to your own emotions, you are actually more able to attend to theirs. When you started being more honest, what were some of the reactions you got, both negative and positive?
Anjuli: I'll give you a personal one. When I shared about my early mid 20s, when I started to notice, what is this feeling? What is this fear and anxiety? Oh my goodness, anxiety. I remember sitting in a parking lot with my best friend and sharing that with her, how actually really scared I was. I was sweating. I was like, dripping sweating fear.
She looks at me and says, yeah, of course you feel scared. And I was so empowered then. Oh, I'm not gonna be rejected in my fear, but also I'm gonna find friendship. I can also find more words for it, which led to so much more community.
With motherhood, that's where I started writing online. I was talking about this honest place of motherhood for me. People came out of the woodworks, like me too. Oh my gosh. I'd get these messages from moms weeping and feeling the depth of their own shame and guilt. It actually became such a bridge for relationships.
Alison Cook: You have an amazing presence, both in person and online, and you really do have a ministry. You're so authentic. You show up so honestly, so vulnerably, in a way that invites others to feel seen. It's a very beautiful gift that I hear from what you're saying came out of your own experience of, I have to be honest about this. I have to be honest.
Anjuli: And I'm scared to death. It's the scariest thing ever to step into vulnerability, but it's also true.
Alison Cook: Yeah. It's true. The truth sets us free.
Anjuli: Turns out.
Alison Cook: Yeah. So, your book highlights 75 different emotions. First of all, I want to know, how did you come up with your list? Second of all, I'm curious, which ones were the hardest for you to write about and pray through as you led us through them?
Anjuli: I broke the book down into the six core emotions, which are surprise, fear, anger, happiness, disgust, and sadness. You can find variations of the core emotions, but those are the ones I really stuck to. Under each core emotion are subcategories of feelings. Each one was challenging for me, but probably the hardest was, it sounds so funny now that I say it, but playful was a really hard one to write.
Another hard one was anxiety. However you feel, you can open up to that chapter and the first section is language for your feeling. Because oftentimes, we don't even know how or why we feel what we feel.
I did my best to take from my own journals, my own diaries, if you will, of how I experienced that feeling, to help the reader connect to their own feeling of agitation or worry or guilt. The next section is a liturgy of that feeling, opening the heart to God. Anxiety was tricky, because anxiety itself is really the fear of not feeling other feelings.
It was hard to name and write because not everybody, but a lot of people feel anxiety, and they feel it very differently. I didn't want to miss somebody and neglect or dismiss their feeling. But I also didn't want to overshoot it either. So I rewrote anxiety like 18 times.
Alison Cook: Yeah. I could see that, because anxiety is very familiar, but it also surfaces in so many different ways. I thought it was beautiful. I'd love to even hear maybe a snippet of one to think through, man, I'm feeling this and now I can go use this tool to walk myself through it.
Anjuli: Yeah, if you are feeling anxiety, you would open up to the chapter on “Anxious”, and it gives a general definition: it's the feeling of avoiding other important emotions. In the language for feeling anxious, this is how I begin.
“I can't even recall when this feeling began. My body can't settle down. Everything itches. A slow growing panic pulsing through me makes it difficult to breathe. I am anxious. I can manage many things, but not this.
Fear races through me, and I can't rationalize, organize, or talk myself out of my escalated state of anxiety. It has a mind of its own. It is the boss. Trying to regain right thinking, a right posture, a right plan, is exhausting. There is a war within me.”
I go on for another paragraph, “I want to manage it and control it, or I want to suppress it, or I fall prey and let it take over sometimes, and I don't have a way out.”
Then the next section is a liturgy for when I feel anxious. I want people to pay attention to feelings in their body. I think that's really important. But ultimately, for people to open their heart to God with how they feel.
“God, when have I felt this in my story before? God, please do your deep healing work in my life. Help me, God, to be curious about my pain and the wounds that remain in me. Help me be kind to myself as I enter and feel all that remains unfelt in my soul. Gift me words for my heart. God, this anxiety takes me on a journey that is rather painful, mysterious, and unknown.
But God, you are here with compassion and care and understanding. With you is an ocean of compassion. With you is a dwelling place for comfort. With you, I am made clean.”
It goes on to share more about opening your heart in prayer and then every chapter ends with a simple verse about prayer and meeting with God and your feeling.
Alison Cook: That's beautiful. Is there an audiobook version and do you read it?
Anjuli: It's coming! Alison, it’s coming! Unfortunately, I don't get to read it this time. I've had a lot of vocal cord issues, but I got a good reader and she's awesome and I'm entrusting the Lord to that.
Alison Cook: Yeah, because it's beautiful to hear it. I actually wonder, we're going into the holiday season, which is a time when a lot of emotions get stirred up. What's a section of the book that might speak to the listener, who is feeling maybe some sadness, maybe some frustration, even some anger, and feels like they shouldn't feel that way going into the holiday season?
Anjuli: The two that come up for me are nostalgic–I feel really nostalgic during the holidays–or definitely as moms, guilty. Like we can never do enough.
Alison Cook: We need to have a live poll here. I'm very curious about nostalgia, but I think guilt is so baseline around the holidays.
Anjuli: Always. That's why I'm telling you, we go into debt every December, because oh, one more thing, one more gift, one more party, one more stocking stuffer. Yeah, guilt is very related to fear. Fearing that punishment awaits you for a crime or wrongdoing you have committed.
I think it's so important to pay attention to true guilt versus false guilt. False guilt comes with a lot of shoulds. Have you actually done something wrong?
Alison Cook: Exactly.
Anjuli: I'll read an excerpt from that. I want to invite people to pay attention instead of reacting. Especially with guilt. Like I said, we can go into a lot of unnecessary debt because of guilt. When we stop and pay attention to ooh, what is that thing I feel? I'm afraid of losing relationships with a spouse or a kid or a parent or a sibling. We react by doing something. Pay attention: am I actually doing something wrong?
When that guilt comes up, pay attention to even your temptations in it. Do I power through it by buying more gifts and doing more things and always saying yes, so that hopefully the guilt monster will go away? That's one temptation: we power through.
Do I suppress it? Do I push it down and ignore it, stay busy, avoid it, don't look at it? Don't pay any attention to it. Just stay busy. That's another temptation. Then the other temptation is, we fall prey to it. We let it consume us and we lose all of our agency.
Instead of powering through, suppressing, or falling prey to the feeling, I want to invite people to name it. Oh, there's that guilt again. There it is. I see you. I see you there. The second thing I want to invite people to do is actually feel it. Feel it. Where do I feel it in my body, in my chest, my neck, my back, my throat?
Give yourself permission, for a moment, to feel what you feel. Then lastly, I want to invite people to give your feeling a sound. If it's a sigh, if it's an exhale, if it's tears, and if you're even able to give it some words–hopefully, this book will be a resource that gives you some words for your guilt.
Here, I'll read a little part.
“God, I feel guilty. Search my heart, oh God. Help me listen. Right now, all I can hear is my guilt and it plagues me. I'm afraid of being found out. I'm afraid of punishment or condemnation. Help me know if this guilt is from you or from another source. I want to know if I'm feeling false guilt. Am I trying to keep laws and rules that you didn't ask me to obey?
If I haven't, if I have not actually broken a command of yours, this guilt is not from you, but from a false god in my life. God, if I did something that is truly wrong, I seek forgiveness. Help me accept forgiveness. God, forgive me for my wrong. Yet even as I speak these words, conflict is provoked within me.
I want to atone for my own guilt, be it pride or vanity or greed or self-righteousness. Deep within my will, it is incredibly hard to accept that I can't save myself. I want to prove myself, restore myself, and I hate that I can't. God, you invite me to feel my fear. Guilt at its core is about fear. This is painful.
When fear emerges, help me greet this feeling with gentleness instead of hiding. Let fear be what leads me to you instead of lying, covering, and pretending. Lord, no fear can separate me from your love. Your love lives at the core of my existence. May I be with you even here as you are with me.”
Alison Cook: That's beautiful. That's so good. These are naming tools. These are tools to help give us language for what we're feeling. You're helping us get in there. What is it? What's connected to it? It's through a conversation with God, where it's totally safe to tease out the threads of the knot of emotion.
I'm curious to hear a little bit, whether you want to read or share, tell me a little bit about nostalgia. I think that's such an interesting feeling that is sometimes hard to pinpoint. I think sometimes nostalgia, especially around the holidays, can be tinged with grief, but sometimes it can also be life-giving. I can find myself sometimes wanting to bathe in nostalgia, kind of wanting to let it linger over me.
I'm like, is that healthy? Is that not healthy? So let's talk a little bit about nostalgia. I think that's a really powerful name.
Anjuli: Yeah. It's interesting because it's such a nuanced feeling. Sadness is sadness. There's a purity to it. Anger is anger. It's all the way through. There is frustration and rage in there. But nostalgia–imagine a skier, a downhill skier, the slalom skier. It goes back and forth. It goes between sadness, it goes into fear, and then it goes back into happiness.
Alison Cook: To gratitude.
Anjuli: Yes! Yes!
Alison Cook: There are a lot of ways nostalgia can go.
Anjuli: As I was doing the research for this book, it really, at the core, was happiness. Even though it can feel many different things. So I kept it in that category. But really, nostalgia is the longing for home. And that's what the holidays do to us, doesn't it?
If it's your childhood home, those young memories of youthfulness, where there was safety, where everything was as it should be. I think the word “bathing in nostalgia” is actually pretty accurate, because there's a soothingness, even though there's sorrow. There's comfort in it.
Alison Cook: I love this naming because I actually will seek it out sometimes to soothe. I'll go seek it out, if I've been working too hard or if I'm a little burnt out or if I can't get out of my head. Because that's part of my bent–it's hard for me to sink into my emotions.
I'll go drive past an old memory. I talk about this in I Shouldn’t Feel This Way. I went back and found an old apartment and those memories flooded over me. It takes me to a different time. There's something very soothing about that. I sometimes have to chase it. I have to pursue it.
It's so interesting to hear you name that, because I've not put that name on it. It's a tug at my heart, and it's exactly what you said, for something elusive, some memory that brings me to a different place that is soothing.
That's a great word for it. It's soothing. I think happiness is the right category for it, because even though there's a little bit of nostalgia, a little bit of, oh, what was is no longer, it doesn't take me down. It does something inside my body that feels soothing. I think that's an interesting naming. I love that.
Anjuli: It's comfort. Especially the holidays, when we have that cocoa that we had when we were little kids, or we sit in front of the Christmas tree and remember what it was like to be a little kid and looking up at a tree instead of at the tree, and these songs that just take us to the core of our being.
I think with nostalgia there's still those temptations. We can power through it. We are going to feel this, we're going to have this amazing memory-making experience and you're gonna go down memory lane with me.
Or we ignore it because there is a sorrow to it. Just keep the ball under the water. Don't look at it.
Alison Cook: It feels like too much maybe, so we want to avoid it.
Anjuli: Yeah, especially if there's been a lot of trauma since that experience. If you've lost a loved one, that can be painful. Then there's indulging in it. I tend to do that with nostalgia. I hear what you're saying. I drive past all my old houses all the time. My kids, I drive them crazy. They're like, mom, can we go home?
Alison Cook: I'm a little bit of a nostalgia junkie.
Anjuli: I love that. We need a shirt.
Alison Cook: Yeah. It's very comforting, but I understand what you're saying. It can also evoke sadness. I get why. The thing for me is sometimes other folks like in my family aren't as much and I get it. It's because some of those memories also have a lot of pain. It's not that mine don't, but for whatever reason, the way I'm wired, tapping on it doesn't evoke the pain. It evokes comfort.
What are some other ones that surprised you or that you noticed yourself particularly drawn to? Maybe even ones you were like, I don't want to go there. I don't like that one.
Anjuli: You may have noticed we have not even talked about anger because man, anger. I could live in sadness. I could swim in sadness. I find consolation in sadness. It's like my long lost friend, but anger is terrifying. Anger is very vulnerable. Growing up in the church and in my family, anger was dangerous.
If someone was angry, something was being thrown, something was being slammed, someone was driving away. In the church, it was like, don't let the sun go down in your anger. So I was like, okay I guess I'll suppress it and pretend it's not there because the sun is setting. Anger was so hard for me to write because that's probably the one I've resisted experiencing in my life the most, because it was bad or sinful or scary.
Alison Cook: In writing it, you have to tap into it.
Anjuli: Yeah. Anger can be as small as laziness. That surprised me. I know that turned my head. Laziness is anger turned under; it is anger suppressed. You push your anger way down. it actually numbs you out and you become lazy.
Anger goes from such a range, from laziness to furious anger. That is a range of feeling. Alison, actually, vulnerability was why my vocal cords are so damaged. It was because I went through a pretty traumatic experience a couple months ago.
For me, screaming was absolutely necessary for me to find healing. It was this experience for over a week. It was like a discipline. I had to force myself to get my anger out. So I'd go for drives and scream and it was scary and hard, but you know what? It was freedom, getting it out of me. It was one of the greatest gifts God has given me, my anger.
Alison Cook: It's mobilizing, it's empowering, it's hard. Like you said, it's so scary. I can only imagine putting myself with you in that car. There's something about a car. I've noticed for me, I'm the opposite. I don't love anger, but I have a hard time with sadness and I've noticed when I really need to cry it out.
This is a thing I've since learned. I will get in my car because there's a container. There's something about a car that's contained, or the shower is another one people talk about. There's like a time limit. You can't be there forever. But you can get it all out. I can sob it out and then I'm going to get out of my car and close the door.
I could see for anger, getting in your car and screaming it out. I could feel it in my body. There's a containment for it. There's going to be an end when you're going to get out of the car. That's really powerful. But you are allowing that emotion to flow through you versus stifling it or indulging it, letting it live with you all the time.
Anjuli: And it’s so painful to do that. Then it leaks on all the people you love the most.
Alison Cook: How did you feel afterward?
Anjuli: Gosh, aren't feelings in so many ways quite mysterious. Most of the time after I would scream, I would start crying. It's weird. I think for other people it's the other way around. Sometimes they cry and it leads to screaming. But it's certainly a journey of the body and the heart of processing and moving through true pain.
Ultimately brought an immense amount of freedom. It was like breaking out of jail. It felt free. My hands were tied and then I was free.
Alison Cook: That's powerful. My sister used to always say to me, when I would go through seasons. She has a higher tolerance for the big emotions, which I'm super grateful for. She becomes one of those people that can help me when I need to feel something, but I don't want to.
She used to say to me, anger is going to kick in the butt on the way out. That's what you're saying. You got to get it out, and then often on the other side is oh, now I'm hurt. You also need to feel that. As we close down today, I would love to hear some of your words that you speak to God through anger.
Anjuli: Let me find some.
Alison Cook: I love this. I could do this all day.
Anjuli: I could do resentful, furious, exhausted–exhausted as anger, isn't that interesting?
Alison Cook: Tell me more about that.
Anjuli: Exhausted is beyond tired and it's like you are exhausted to the point of anger. It's a tight, deep tiredness that aggravates your bones.
Alison Cook: I’m thinking of the holidays. This is another thing we hear. I'm exhausted. It's so interesting, even tying together what we've been talking about. I call it guilt-driven love. I've been guilty. So I'm doing. Then I'm exhausted and angry.
Anjuli: This is how it comes out and I will do this with my husband. I buy all the presents. I'm the buyer. I purchase them, I pick them, I get them, I store them, I hide them, then I have to wrap them, which is the thing I hate more than anything in the world. Wrapping a bazillion presents.
They're all under the tree. Then I'm so exhausted. Now I'm not exhausted. I'm angry at my husband as though it's somehow his fault, that I took it all on myself, but that's where it turns to him. It's anger.
Alison Cook: Even at your kids for their existence, and it's nobody else's fault. That's a really powerful naming again. That level of exhaustion can be a form of anger. This is so interesting. The three emotions we picked, guilt, nostalgia and anger. There's that anger guilt thing at the holidays. I'm feeling it. I'm seeing the pattern in my own life.
Anjuli: Happy holidays. Gear up.
Alison Cook: I had a conversation with Alli Worthington on the podcast about her new book about parenting. She talked about the bitterness of family holidays, and she didn't want to bring that into her own holidays. It's what we're talking about–sacrificing everything for you and then I'm mad at you.
Anjuli: Totally. Yes, I'm making you this amazing dinner, which no one asked me to make. Spending all this money on the food, making the table as beautiful as ever, having the right music on, and then the kids don't eat it, and then I'm mad at them. That's exhaustion. Deep tiredness that fuels anger. Maybe I'll close with that.
Alison Cook: I think that's good.
Anjuli: “God, help me believe in the good of the journey I am on. The good is for others in my care. The good is for the spreading of the gospel. The good is for the healing of my own pain. God, help me endure because I can't do it on my own anymore. I can't carry this cross alone. It's harder than I imagined. It is hard to not harbor anger.
It is hard to forgive. It is hard to let go. It is hard to relax. It is hard to surrender. It is hard to believe that you care about my life more than I do. You understand exhaustion. You took space to be with your Father when your soul and body were weary. May I learn from you how to rest in God's love.
If it would be your will, please deliver me from this pain because it is hard to bear. If my circumstances do not change, may your grace be enough to sustain me. I pray it would be one moment at a time. What you have entrusted to me, I entrust back to you. I give you my life. Even as weary as I am, may my life be an offering to you, Lord. Hear my prayer.”
Alison Cook: Beautiful. I could listen to you read those prayers all day long. What a beautiful gift to give to people, to tease out the nuances of each feeling in conversation with God. I'm so grateful for you for sharing it with us today. You cover so many different emotions and I love what you're saying. You could pick it up to the one that stands out to you, maybe it's a surprise, maybe you're not sure.
So you flip through the pages and see which one leaps out at you and go into it. I think it's going to help a lot of people and I'm really grateful that you are here with us today.
Anjuli: Thank you for endorsing it and your friendship and always championing other people. Such a gift.
Alison Cook: Before we close, two questions I like to ask, sometimes I forget, but I like to ask 90 percent of my guests–
Anjuli: That's good. 90 percent is good.
Alison Cook: What would you say to that younger you back when the bottom was falling out from suppressed emotions? What would you want to say to her now?
Anjuli: I would probably say, and even in light of this conversation, anger is a gift. Because it leads you to hope and the love of God.
Alison Cook: That's beautiful. What is bringing out the best of you right now?
Anjuli: Backyard fire pit conversations. We go out there and sometimes a kid joins us and sometimes they don't. But I feel like when it's dark and there's the glow, the warmth of the fire, it brings out the best in me. Great question.
Alison Cook: That's beautiful. I love it. Thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you? Where can they find your work?
Anjuli: Yeah. I'm on Instagram a lot, so it's lovealways.anjuli or my website where I have a few courses that I offer, anjulipaschall.com.
Alison Cook: Check it out. Thank you so much again.
Anjuli: Yay. Thanks, Alison.
Have you ever wondered if someone you know might be on the autism spectrum—or even questioned it about yourself?
Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) is often misunderstood, misdiagnosed, or even missed entirely, especially in those who don’t fit common stereotypes. In this episode, neuropsychologist Dr. Donna Henderson joins us to unpack the complexities of autism, neurodiversity, and how we can better understand and support those around us.
What You’ll Learn:
* The 7 key criteria for identifying autism
* When to pursue a neuropsychological evaluation
* Why talk therapy often falls short for neurodivergent individuals
* How someone can exhibit an "autistic nervous system" without having ASD
* Practical ways to support loved ones
This conversation will deepen your understanding of neurodiversity and help you see the world—and those you love—in a new light.
Resources:
- The Best of You Podcast question form
- Episode 129: Understanding Anxiety—A Step-by-Step Guide to Finding Calm, Advocating For Yourself, and Cultivating Inner Resilience
- psychologytoday.com
- Episode 71: All About Therapy—Do I Need a Therapist, How Do I Find One, and What Type of Therapy Works Best?
- Is This Autism? A Guide for Clinicians and Everyone Else by Dr. Donna Henderson and Sarah Wayland
- isthisautism.com
If you liked this, you’ll love:
- Episode 85: The Goal of a Healthy Family & 6 Roles We Take On In Dysfunction
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Transcript:
Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I am so glad you're here with me this week and every week, but especially this week, as we are diving into a topic that I know so many of you are eager to learn about, and that's neurodiversity, especially focusing on the autism spectrum.
I recently ran a poll. I have a doc. It's called The Best of You Podcast question form doc. It's not fancy at all. It's a Google doc. We'll link to it in the show notes. But in that doc, I asked you what specific diagnostic categories you wanted to learn about.
This was a couple of months ago, and neurodiversity was your top choice by far for a specific diagnostic category that you wanted me to cover. I am thrilled to bring this conversation to you, especially with today's guest neuropsychologist, Dr. Donna Henderson, who brings an incredible wealth of knowledge and expertise in this area.
What I love about Donna is she is clear. I learned so much through this conversation. She breaks things down so simply and so clearly. I'm so excited for you to hear from her today. If you listened to last week's episode, Episode 129, we talked all about anxiety and the different things that drive anxiety and how to better understand it and manage it.
One of the things I mentioned is that sometimes a root cause of anxiety comes from another condition, meaning that anxiety isn't the primary condition that we need to treat. It's actually secondary. There's something else going on underneath the anxiety. Neurodivergent individuals, especially those on the autism spectrum, tend to experience anxiety more frequently.
I am thrilled again, to take this deeper dive into that specific area with Donna today. I want to start briefly to touch on some of the key terms in case they're not familiar to you. Neuropsychological testing is Donna's area of expertise. This is a comprehensive evaluation that helps uncover the strengths and challenges specifically in your brain function.
It's often used to identify conditions like autism spectrum disorder, ADHD, and other neurodevelopmental disorders. And this type of testing really plays a crucial role in understanding how your brain functions and its unique ways of processing information and engaging with the world.
So it can be so helpful in getting to the root of some of the problems or the challenges that we're facing. If you are listening to today's episode and you're interested in finding a professional who does neuropsychological testing, there's a filter for these specialists on the website, psychologytoday.com.
You can go back to Episode 71, where I walk you through step by step how to locate specific types of therapists in your zip code, in your region. And one of the things I walk you through is how to use psychologytoday.com in the first place. There are filters on it to find these types of specialists, and one of those filters is testing and evaluation.
So you can go filter for people who specialize in testing and evaluation, like our guest Donna does, if you're interested in learning more about neuropsychological testing. Feel free to go back to Episode 71 to learn more about how to find a specialist like this in your area.
Without further ado, I want to introduce you to today's guest, Dr. Donna Henderson. Donna is a licensed clinical neuropsychologist who has dedicated her career to understanding and supporting neurodivergent individuals, particularly those on the autism spectrum.
She's been working with clients for over 30 years, and she is the author of the book, Is This Autism? A Guide for Clinicians and Everyone Else. This is an incredible resource for everyone. As the title would indicate, it's not just for clinicians, it's for anyone who identifies as autistic or who loves someone who is autistic. I am so excited to share with you today's conversation with Dr. Donna Henderson.
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Donna, I am so thrilled that you agreed to join me today and join the podcast to share with us your expertise. I have a million questions to ask you. But the first thing I want to touch on here on the front end is this work that you do in neuropsychological evaluations.
From my own experience as a clinician, one of the things I've noticed is the more precise we can get diagnostically, the better we can help people. Often, people get categorized or pigeonholed with a diagnostic label that doesn't fit well. I talk about well-fitting names. If we name something and it's not the right name, it really has big implications and repercussions, whether we're working with children or loved ones or spouses or family members or ourselves.
I would love to hear a little bit about your perspective on what is a neuropsychological evaluation? What does it mean? What are you looking for when people come to you for an evaluation?
Donna: Sure. First of all, thank you for having me. I am really excited to be here and talk about this. The way I often explain a neuropsych eval is that I describe myself as a detective and the mystery is that some person, whether it's a child, an adolescent or an adult, is struggling with some aspect of their life.
Maybe they have anxiety or depression or big emotions, or they're struggling in school, or they're not able to meet their social needs, whatever arena they're struggling in. And I have to figure out what's going on there and how can I help them? I look for clues by interacting with people mostly.
Interviewing the parents, interviewing the individual, having them do different tasks with me so I can see what makes them tick. A neuropsych eval includes interviews, it usually includes rating scales where people answer questions, pen and paper sort of thing. And it usually includes some testing, which may be IQ testing, memory, language, executive functioning, attention, different aspects of functioning and social cognition as well.
To me, the idea is not to get a diagnosis, although it often does end in a diagnosis or maybe even more than one diagnosis. To me, the real idea is to figure out, what the heck is going on here? What makes this person tick? How do they move through the world? What works for them? What doesn't work for them? What are their strengths?
And when it comes to all of that and the diagnoses, I think it should resonate with the child or the individual, with the parents. We should all be on the same page. To me, it feels like it should be a very collaborative process where it makes sense at the end of the day, where we all feel like we solve the mystery and we have a roadmap to move forward.
Alison Cook: I love that once we get a healthier understanding of what's happening, we can find a better path toward helping the individual thrive. What are some of the primary things you're looking for, especially when we're thinking about things that get missed. I think about kids that either that I've worked with or long ago, when I was brand new, and a parent would be exasperated by a child's behavior.
“They can't pay attention in school. They're acting out”. They're getting labeled as a problem child. And this was decades before it was more common to think about the brain, to think about functioning, to think about neurodiversity. To use your detective metaphor, I would think to myself, there's something else going on here.
This is a good kid. This kid isn't trying to cause trouble. What's going on there? I remember one time, I had a young teenage client, and a family member ended up giving her an IQ test and her IQ was off the charts. There was some explanation there for some of her boredom in class, for some of her anxiety.
It does require that detective mindset. What are some of the things you're looking for? And what are some of the primary diagnostic categories that you see getting missed or falling through the cracks with individuals?
Donna: So when you were asking that question, one thing that ran through my mind, and I wish I could remember who said this, but it might have even been my co-author and friend, Sarah Wayland. Kids aren't giving you a hard time. They're having a hard time. Often, when parents bring kids in, it's because there may be behavioral problems or the kids aren't meeting expectations or aren't being compliant in different ways.
The parents have this experience of God, he or she is giving me a hard time. But really, the child is having a hard time. And when I think about it, I do think about it mostly from a brain point of view. Back in the day, we didn't think about that as much. We used to think more about was there trauma in the child?
I actually worked with a family this morning with a six year old who is flipping over desks in school and eloping from school. He has very supportive schools, super supportive parents, no trauma history. And everyone keeps saying he's anxious. He's anxious. He's anxious.
Sure. But to me, the real question is why is he anxious? There is no good reason that we can see for him to be anxious. He hasn't experienced trauma or a negative household situation or anything like that. There's something in his nervous system that is driving that anxiety. So I'm trying to get underneath to see what's going on.
A lot of the time that means understanding their sensory functioning. What's going on with their sensory needs or their sensory overwhelm? What's going on with their social functioning? Are they misperceiving cues? Are they confused by basic interactions? I'm looking at some of that stuff.
Alison Cook: That's so interesting. That's helpful because we're trying to be trauma-informed. We're always trying to look to the past. We're always trying to look at the system. And you said something really powerful there. When we've turned over all the rocks and there's nothing really there, and this child is still really having a hard time, you're coming in and really looking at those internal mechanisms, the nervous system, the brain to try to figure out some of these patterns.
I'm assuming you're looking a lot for patterns. Is that part of it?
Donna: Yeah, absolutely. Patterns. I'm looking at the big picture. When I train other clinicians, I always say, when you're gathering information, it's all about the details. So ask for another story, ask for another example, really get down into the nitty gritty of it all. But once you've collected all your information, then it's not about the details.
Then it's about the big picture, stepping back and looking at this child as a whole. This relates to the other question you asked about what diagnoses tend to get missed, and autism is a big one. The reason is that so often, no clinician is looking at the big picture of that child.
You might have an occupational therapist diagnosing the sensory processing disorder. And then maybe a year or two later, you'll have a speech therapist diagnosing social pragmatic communication disorder. And then at some point you might get a psychologist or psychiatrist saying, oh, there's some ADHD here.
And then a few years later, you might have another therapist saying, oh, you have anxiety. Everybody's seeing one little part and these all may or may not be accurate. Quite often they are, but nobody's stepping back and putting all those pieces together and looking at the individual as a whole. And that's what a neuropsych does.
Alison Cook: That's a really helpful way to put it because any one of those little pieces could have truth in it, but we're trying to get to the root. What is actually, for the most part, as best we can tell, driving all of these different things? Because if we're treating the anxiety and there's actually an autism spectrum diagnosis up here, we're going to be missing a part of that path toward health.
Donna: 100%.
Alison Cook: As far as getting a neuropsych eval, when would you encourage somebody to take that route? At what point in the journey would you encourage someone?
Donna: Oooh, I don't know if I could give you a good answer for that because it's so individualized. It really depends so much on what the problems are and what they've already tried to do, what is working, what isn't working, how much distress there is for the child and for the parents, how available a neuropsych is for them.
I will say, I think in most areas of the country, you have to get on a waiting list to get a good neuropsych eval. If you're thinking about it, it's probably worth making some calls before you think you're fully ready, because you may have to wait anywhere from three months to well over a year in some places.
So people should be aware of that, because very frequently at my practice, for instance, I get phone calls where people are at a breaking point, at a crisis point, or feeling really ready now. And then they're very disappointed when they find out they have to wait. That's a common experience.
Alison Cook: Yeah, that's a really great tip. I guess from my vantage point, when I see people who are struggling with something complicated, the downside is the cost and the wait time if it's not covered by insurance. But other than that, it's hard for me to find a downside because you're getting into the details and that whole holistic approach, which can save you time and money in the long run, from going down rabbit trails that don't get you to where you want to go. So I've found it to be incredibly helpful to see those results.
Donna: It's my experience as well. And I will say, I think most of the people we work with at the end of the evaluation say, we wish we had done this sooner. I hear that very frequently.
Alison Cook: Let's dive into the autism spectrum. Tell me a little bit about how you speak about autism spectrum diagnoses.
Donna: There are probably 140 million autistic people on this planet, if I look at the population of the world at the current prevalence rate of 2.77%, That's a really huge number of people. And that's a really wide spectrum of people from, people who require 24 hour, seven day a week, very close support for every little thing and very close supervision, all the way to people who are fully happy and functional in their lives and are getting their social needs met and are contributing to the world in a million different ways and have interesting careers and whatever their life goals are.
It's really hard to talk about 140 million people in one way. And that's where I think we're having a lot of difficulty now, finding wording that makes everybody feel comfortable. I would say a few things. In the DSM, the technical diagnosis is autism spectrum disorder. When we're talking about medical documentation, applying for disability, those sorts of official things, that's the language that we use.
A lot of the people I work with tend to be autistic people with average to above average intelligence, many of them having later diagnoses in adolescence or well into adulthood. Many of them prefer autistic person over person with autism, because person with autism is a medical model. It's putting the person ahead of the problem.
So you might say it's a person with diabetes, not a diabetic person. But for this group of people particularly, they feel like this is not a medical problem. This is part of my identity. It's part of who I am. So I prefer autistic person. And so that's the language that I tend to use–autistic person.
It's also true that somebody can be autistic, meaning having this kind of nervous system, but not have autism spectrum disorder, if they are living their life and they're fine, they're meeting their own social needs, they're doing, meeting their goals, doing whatever it is they need and want to do in this world. There's tons of people out there like that. They happen to be autistic, but they don't have autism spectrum disorder.
Alison Cook: Okay. So let's dive in there a little bit, because there's so much to what you said. You said, having the features of an autistic nervous system without necessarily having what would meet the criteria for a quote unquote disorder. Tell me a little bit about what you mean by that.
Donna: So there are seven core criteria for being diagnosed with autism, plus one. When I say someone's autistic, but doesn't have autism spectrum disorder, they meet enough of the seven. You don't have to meet all of them, but they meet enough of those core seven so I know that, okay, you have that kind of brain, you have that kind of nervous system. But the plus one is, there's some kind of functional impairment related to it.
Alison Cook: Okay.
Donna: The people I'm saying are autistic, but don't need a diagnosis are the ones who move through the world this way. They have this type of nervous system, but they don't have any functional impairment. They're not super anxious or having trouble meeting their social needs or whatever it is. So that's the difference, that functional impairment
Alison Cook: That makes a lot of sense. Can you give us a sort of bird's eye view of those seven characteristics?
Donna: The first category are differences in someone's social or communication skills. There are three criteria in this category, and somebody has to meet all three. At any point in their life, it could be current, it could be by history. It doesn't have to be both.
The first of the three is all about the back and forth flow of interactions. Intuitively knowing how to greet people, how to share personal information, showing interpersonal curiosity, being reciprocal in conversation. Meaning, if you say, oh, something weird happened to me this weekend. I say something related to that.
There's not one right answer. I could say, what happened? Or I could say, my God, something weird is always happening to you. Or I could say, oh, I had a weird weekend too, but it has to be related. And as part of this first criterion, there's also the ability to take somebody else's perspective to intuitively understand somebody else's intentions, for example, what's going through somebody else's mind to some extent.
So it's not whether or not somebody has these skills, but how effortful it is. So some of these people with less obvious autism can pull off socially typical looking interactions, but they are unbelievably exhausted by them. They can do it for a short period of time. These are kids who may camouflage at school, come home completely melted down or go to sleep for many hours. That's the first criterion.
The second one in this category of social and communication differences is nonverbal communication. That's everything about communicating except for the words. So facial expressions, tone of voice, gesturing, body language, personal space, volume, all of that stuff, paying attention to and understanding other people's. So if a teacher speaks in a stern tone of voice, knowing the teacher is not yelling, that's a stern tone of voice.
Being able to discern all these little differences and also giving off your own non-verbals that are typical and easy for most people to read. Eye contact is in this one too. Much of this is about understanding the subjective experience of the individual, because a lot of these kids learn at a pretty early age how to make typical eye contact, but if you ask them their experience of it, they may tell you, oh, I hate it.
I hate looking at eyes. They creep me out or I can't concentrate, but I forced myself to do it because I know everybody expects me to. It's not intuitive or comfortable for them as much, a lot of autistic people will tell you that.
Alison Cook: And this is where in these two, and maybe in the next one, I thought it was interesting what you said, even when the person has figured out how to do it, they're exhausted by it. We're not talking about introversion, but exhaustion. We're not talking about, I'm peopled out.
It's a level of sensory overload. And I think you even use the word meltdown where there's something pretty significant. It's not a typical response to a day with other people or to a social event.
Donna: It is absolute exhaustion. I had one college autistic college professor once say to me, Hey, I can go to the department party and be there for 45 minutes and look perfectly typical and completely blend in. And what people don't know is then I'm in bed for a day and a half recovering from that 45 minutes a day.
We all can get a little tired after socializing, especially post COVID. We all got out of the habit for a while, but this is next level. There's also often a confusion or effort piece to it. They're not intuitively moving through social interactions, but they're thinking, oh, I should smile now. I should put on a smile.
Oh, I haven't spoken in 60 seconds. It might be my turn to speak. Is it my turn to speak? I probably should speak now. There's a very conscious thought process, which is probably in part why they're so exhausted.
Alison Cook: I want to finish getting through the list, but I want to ask you later about specifically therapy for individuals who are autistic, because there is that component of putting on a mask. We talk a lot in traditional therapy about being authentic, figuring out how to show up authentically.
There's a way in which that could create some dissonance for someone who is autistic–for me to function in a social setting in order to fit in or in order not to be negatively perceived as anything from socially shy to rude especially in an extroverted world, I have to go through these motions. I have to learn these skills.
It makes a therapeutic intervention a little bit different. And I've learned that a little bit as well. So I want to come back to that, but I want to bookmark that.
Donna: Yes. It's really hard for me not to jump into that right now, but I agree. We should get through the criteria. Okay, so we're doing the first of the two categories, social and communication differences. There are three. The first one, interactions. The second one, non verbals. The third one is relationship management.
Making friends, deepening friendships, keeping friendships, maintaining them over time, understanding relationships. If a kindergartner tells you everyone in their class is their friend, that's socially typical, but if a 5th grader thinks everyone in their class is their friend, that shows they're not having a typical understanding of social relationships.
Or if they think teachers are their friends, that sort of thing. Conflict management comes into this category of social motivation. People can be autistic and very socially motivated, really want friends, romantic relationships, all that. Or people can be autistic and have very low social motivation. And I've had more than one autistic kid say, no, seriously, I would like to live in a cabin in the woods in Alaska and not see anyone, but my parents can come visit for one day a year kind of thing. And they mean it.
So if somebody is very socially motivated, that does not preclude autism. That's the first category of interactions, relationships, and nonverbals, and you have to meet all three currently or by history. For example, if you have a 15 year old who makes typical eye contact, but they didn't make typical eye contact until they figured it out, say in fourth or fifth grade, then that still counts towards diagnosis.
Alison Cook: Which is probably also how it can get missed because, yeah, they figured it out.
Donna: Exactly. And the other main way it gets missed is the timeline is different from what a lot of people think. Many people have this wrong idea that it has to be fully evident by age three. And that's not true. For a lot of really smart autistic people, particularly girls, it becomes evident around fifth grade.
That's when we really start to see it. And if you look back, you can see the signs, but it wasn't ever big enough for people to take note until somewhere between fourth and sixth grade typically.
So that's the first category. The second category of the criteria are repetitive and restricted behaviors, RRBs. There are four in this category. You only have to meet two of the four. So that confuses people. They think if they don't meet one of them, they're not autistic, but nope, two out of four. The first one is what we informally call stimming. So that is behavior that is repetitive or atypical. It can be any kind of movement.
So in the more stereotypical presentation of autism, you might have kids flapping their arms or flicking their hands. A lot of these kids, repetitive picking, repetitive hair pulling or twirling, pacing back and forth repeatedly, countless different kinds of movements. It can be repetitive speech or unusual speech, like formal language.
My own daughter with whom I have a very warm relationship calls me mother, that formal language. It can be repetitive use of objects. Watching the same TV show over and over and over again, not two or three times. I've had kids who say, yeah, I watched Despicable Me 84 times so far in a row or reading the same book over and over again, drawing the same thing over and over again.
So that's number one, repetitive behavior. Number two is inflexibility. And it doesn't necessarily mean that they're being behaviorally difficult all day, every day. There's pockets of inflexibility. They might have difficulty with change or transitions. They might get stuck in their thinking, stuck in loops or stuck in their perceptions.
They might have very rigid black and white thinking. If they don't like someone, that person's evil. Black and white thinking about other people. They might be perfectionistic. A lot of these girls are highly perfectionistic. So that's the second one, flexibility challenges.
The third one is interests. In the stereotypical presentation of autism, they tend to have atypical interests. Airport codes or orange traffic cones, that sort of thing. But in this less obvious presentation of autism, you tend to have typical interests that get really intense. So it can be animals, either animals in general, or a particular animal.
It can be reading, a K-pop band, any pop star, makeup, typical stuff, but they do a much deeper dive than most kids do. And then the last of the four is sensory differences, not the sensitivities that everyone is aware of or the sensory seeking, but less known sensory differences, and a big one is called interoception, which is knowing what your body is telling you, knowing if you have to use the bathroom, knowing if you're hungry, knowing if you're anxious, knowing if you're cold or hot, being able to read those signals from your body as one of the sensory differences.
So the second category has four. Number one, repetitive behavior. Number two, inflexibility or need for sameness. Number three, interests that are intense or atypical. Number four, sensory differences.
Alison Cook: And those are all of the categories. In that second one, you need to have two of the four.
Donna: Correct.
Alison Cook: Okay. So you might have someone listening and they're going, oh my goodness, I see this in myself. I see this in my spouse. I see this in my child. That would indicate an autistic pattern of thinking, an autistic brain for lack of a better way to put it.
Donna: Maybe so. When I do live trainings, people always come up to me afterwards to chat and ask questions. And inevitably there are one or two people that say, I think I might be autistic, or I think my child might be. They have that instant whoa, a lot of what you said resonated with me.
I can divide those people into two categories. For some of them, it's a passing thought, because one or two things I said resonated with them. So I'll put myself in that category–once or twice a year. I have a moment of, wait, maybe I'm autistic and I've never identified as autistic. And I'm not autistic.
But once or twice a year it crosses my mind because I have some sensory sensitivities and my husband tells me I can be rigid at times. Little things, nothing major. It passes very quickly. The more I think about it, the more I realize, nope, I have one or two things in common with autistic people.
But for that other group, the more they read about it, the more they learn, the more they think about it, the more deeply it resonates either for themselves or their child or both. These things are genetically driven. And for that group, then I think they should take it seriously.
Alison Cook: Yeah. I love how you're saying that again, back to this big picture piece. Because me too. I heard a couple of things in what you said, and I was like, oh, the interoception, I have a really hard time with that. But we have to put that against the larger picture of the whole constellation, the overall pattern.
We're going to have some things in common, but that doesn't mean we actually have this whole style going into the world. And then you add that seventh criteria, there's impaired functioning in some domain of my life.
Donna: If anyone comes into my office for a neuropsych eval or a consultation, by definition, there's some functional impairment. Something made them call me and make an appointment. And that's true for you, for any mental health clinician. People don't come in for the heck of it.
They come in because they're anxious or they're depressed or they're lonely or they're not doing well in school or at work or whatever it is. So that part is automatic to me, pretty more or less once they're in my office for the most part. And to be clear, that's number eight.
We have seven. So there's the three social criteria and the four repetitive restrictive criteria. So there's seven core ones. This would be number eight, not number seven. Yeah.
Alison Cook: Okay. This is so helpful, to get the lay of the land where there's a large pattern and it's more than one thing. There's a spectrum. If I had a dime for every time somebody who either themselves or a loved one has been diagnosed with autism said to me, I thought it looked like Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man. And it doesn't.
Donna: A white male who is overtly odd and has massive difficulty managing day to day life. There are college professors who are autistic people. There are comedians. There are professional athletes, happily married people, certainly activists out in the community. There are pastors and ministers and rabbis and teachers and there is an entire lost generation of autistic adults who don't know they're autistic.
Alison Cook: I love that you're naming that and this is where I want to move as we wind down. I want to honor your time. How do we approach therapy, and in addition to that, how do we approach it when we know somebody has this? I heard a comedian, to your point about comedians, Hannah Gadsby, talk, and it was so stunning.
I thought this was a great metaphor. She said, it's like if someone is colorblind, she said, that's how it feels for me going into a social setting. And she said, you don't tell somebody who's colorblind, see color. Here's all you need to do. They can't go in and see the social nuances.
We live, especially in American culture, in such a socially oriented world. There is such a high premium on that kind of traditional interpersonal skill. I have a real soft spot in my heart for folks who are feeling sidelined and marginalized because to use her metaphor, they feel colorblind and they're being told there's something wrong with you or figure it out.
With that backdrop, what would you say? What kind of therapy might be most helpful if you're someone who you or your loved one is in this category and how can we come alongside those who have this style, this way of being in the world and to help be a kinder, gentler, more community oriented world?
Donna: Yeah, I love that. Historically, once somebody was identified as autistic, the goal of all the adults around them was, let's help make them look less autistic. Let's teach them how to make “better” eye contact. There's no such thing as better or worse eye contact or good or bad eye contact.
There's typical and less typical. And all that was doing, and I'm not saying there isn't a place for something like that–we all have to learn how to be somewhat functional in the world. But the core of therapy should absolutely not be about that. To me, it's about helping, especially if we're talking about children here and adolescents, helping them understand who they are through the lens of neurodiversity.
Not, you have a disorder called autism spectrum disorder, but you have a different kind of brain than most people have. You're in a minority group. And anytime you're in a minority group, that makes life a little bit more challenging. That's not a problem within you, but it is a problem for you. And we're going to work together to help you understand this, to help me understand your experience, to help them understand it.
Ideally, they also will have a group experience with other bright autistic kids their age too. We all want to connect with other people who understand our experience. Truly. I think that can be really helpful as well. These kids are so misunderstood for so much of their lives and there often is a trauma piece.
I don't necessarily mean trauma with a capital T, although autistic kids are more likely to have trauma with a capital T, negative life experiences, parents getting divorced, that sort of thing. But they're also more likely to experience typical life events as traumatic. Walking into the school building can be traumatic for them. Having that trauma lens, that autism trauma lens in therapy can be very helpful as well.
Alison Cook: That's interesting. Even when you said how it can be hard to detect the nuances of tone for a child or even an adult, I think about a work setting where someone maybe is having a bad day and has a stern tone of voice, they experience that as being yelled at, and they might go to that black and white thinking.
That would weigh more heavily on that person than someone who understands, oh, they had a bad day. They used a sarcastic tone of voice with me. It makes it a little bit harder to move through the day and move through the world.
Donna: A lot harder. We could sit here and talk for many hours about the many different ways that it is harder to move through the world as an autistic person. I'll give you one super quick example. It's such a minor one, but it's one of a thousand. Around my dinner table, on my side of the table, is me–I'm a non autistic ADHD person–and my youngest daughter who has the same neurotype.
And then across the dinner table are my two older kids who are both autistic. They live off at college and my husband sits at the head of the table. One day, my youngest was telling a story and my older two weren't making any eye contact. As a non autistic person, I experienced that as rude and it bothered me.
At one point I said, hey, you guys, how about some eye contact over here for the non-autistic people? Because that's how we talked to each other in my family and they laughed and then they put me in my place, rightfully, and said, why should we have to make eye contact because it feels more natural to you?
We know we have to do it out there in the world. We get that and we accept it, but we shouldn't have to come home and do it here in our own home when it's uncomfortable to us. And that doesn't mean it was wrong for me to want eye contact either. Nobody's right. Nobody's wrong. It's a matter of talking openly and leading with curiosity about our differences and having communication about it.
And I think that is probably the most helpful thing of all.
Alison Cook: I love that. You said right before we started recording something about a family of different neurotypes. Every family is a family of different neurotypes. And in your family, you each know your type, and there's a way in which then you're negotiating. One of you is saying, I'm done with eye contact for the day. Another is saying I need some eye contact.
This is a family. And I love that because this whole podcast is all about how we come together for the good of the whole. We bring our individual selves, we bring our individual neurotypes, whether we're neurotypical or atypical, whatever the diagnosis, whatever the framework is, but we're coming together, trying to create harmony, which doesn't mean normalizing one over the other. It means each person learning how to honor the other.
That's true in relationships. That's true in a family. I love that. The knowledge really helps. You can each name it, and that really helps with the understanding and with the communication.
Donna: Oh, it makes all the difference in the world. I'm actually working on a training right now with a brilliant autistic psychologist named Megan Anna Neff and she's autistic, I'm not, and we're working on a training that is all about cross-neurotype communication. Because once you understand everybody's neurotypes and how they communicate differently, verbally and non verbally, because both are super important, then so much of conflict and hurt feelings and anger falls away when you understand.
Alison Cook: It's so good. We make so many assumptions about people based on the subtext, the cues, the eye contact, the questions that someone asks or doesn't ask, instead of really seeking that deep understanding and that deep knowledge that we have the power to gain now through people like you who are doing this work.
I could keep diving into this but I want to honor your time. Tell everyone where they can find you. You've got some amazing resources to really help people with this. Where can people find you, Donna, and the work that you're doing?
Donna: Sure. I've co-authored two books and the first one is called, Is This Autism? A Guide for Clinicians and Everyone Else. We realized that a lot of clinicians didn't understand the less obvious presentation of autism and decided to write a book about it. And I gradually realized, oh, nobody understands this. It's not just for clinicians. That's why it's called a guide for clinicians and everyone else.
That's with my co-authors Sarah Wayland and Jamell White. And then there's a companion guide for clinicians that I do recommend for clinicians, but for parents or people who are wondering if they or their child is autistic, it's the first book. It's the guide for clinicians and everyone else.
Our website is isthisautism.com and we also do have some videos there, so if people are more into listening than reading, they can access the same information more or less that's in the book in those videos,
Alison Cook: I highly recommend it if you've been listening and some things have stood out to you. If you're aware of man, we've tried everything but nothing's working, and some of the things you listed really rang true about your loved one or about yourself, or trying to understand some behaviors that don't make sense to you, start getting curious. Is it possible there's something in the brain going on here?
Or the clinicians listening, is there possibly something here that might fall in this category of neurodiversity or autism? Because it can be so helpful to understanding, to clarity, and to finding, as you said, that path through, so thank you so much for what you're doing and really appreciate your time today.
Donna: Thank you so much for having me.
Do you ever feel stuck in anxious thoughts?
Are you longing for more moments of calm throughout your day?
Every single one of us has a relationship with anxiety. The goal isn't to eradicate anxiety; it’s to work with anxiety to create more peace and balance in our lives. In this episode, I guide you through a clear, step-by-step understanding of your relationship with anxiety. Whether you’re navigating your own anxious moments or supporting loved ones, you'll learn how to identify root causes and key insights needed to find calm and clarity.
Here’s what we’ll cover:
* How to understand your unique experience with anxiety
* Key root causes of anxiety, including genetics, personality, and environment
* The impact of High Sensitivity (HSP) and neurodivergence on anxiety
* 3 practical techniques to calm anxiety and cultivate strong internal leadership
Resources:
- Episode 71: All About Therapy—Do I Need a Therapist, How Do I Find One, and What Type of Therapy Works Best?
- Episode 54: Can I Pray My Anxiety Away? A Surprising Approach to the Anxiety Pandemic & How to Walk Yourself & Your Kids Through It with Curtis Chang
- Episode 109: Healing Burdens From the Past—How to Overcome Childhood Wounds and Heal Your Younger Self with Tammy Sollenberger
- Episode 97: I Shouldn't Feel This Anxious—Insights on Trauma & Healing with Monique Koven
- Episode 49: Personality, the Big Five Traits, and Why Are We So Obsessed With Personality Types?
- I Shouldn’t Feel This Way by Dr. Alison Cook
- 2 Corinthians 10:5
- Psalm 46:10
- 1 Peter 5:7
Thanks to our sponsors:
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Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author. While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Transcript:
Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I'm so thrilled to be here with you to dive into this healing work we do together every single week. I like to think of this work as soul mending. I see us as soul menders.
What I mean by that is I see us as people who are rooting ourselves primarily in this work of healing our hearts, our minds, our souls, our nervous systems, and I'm using this word healing as it relates to the Greek word sozo that's used in the Bible. It’s a word that is often translated as salvation–working out your salvation with fear and trembling, but can also be translated as healing.
We're here to work out our healing. We want to be people who are healing and we want to be people who are bringing more healing into our families, into our neighborhoods, into our country and into this entire world that God has created. I've never believed more deeply in this work of sozo, this work of healing, more than at this present moment.
I believe that this work of healing every part of who we are in partnership with God's spirit is the work. It's the most important work that every single one of us is called to do, not only to transform our own inner lives, but also to bring healing to this world.
This is the work that Jesus calls us to embrace as we follow him, this work of deeper healing, so that we can bring more healing to everyone around us. Truly, every single one of us who is trying to follow Jesus is called in our own way to this work of becoming healers. And we start this work of healing with the parts of our own selves first.
Toward that end, today, I want to dive into this topic of anxiety. It's a really timely topic. It's a really relevant topic, whether you are dealing with anxiety yourself, whether you're parenting kids who are feeling anxious, or whether your spouse or friends or loved ones are feeling anxious.
Most of us in this day and age are well acquainted with that feeling of anxiety, that inner tension of tightness in our bodies. We can't calm ourselves down. We can't find that clear, calm space inside. Maybe your thoughts are racing or convoluted or maybe they're even keeping you awake at night.
Maybe you sense that constant sort of nagging worry, tugging at the corners of your mind. And you're finding that sense of calm, that sense of clarity, a little bit harder to access in your life. There's so many different ways that anxiety shows up. Today, I want to give you a little bit of insight into how I approach anxiety.
As someone who has sat with so many people over time, where I begin to try to understand that anxious part of them and the different root causes for it, I can share some thoughts on what's going to work best to help restore that reservoir of peace, of calm, of clarity inside of us that we know is the place from which we actually bring more of God's goodness, more of God's healing, more of God's beauty into this world around us.
Today we're going to look at how anxiety shows up differently, the gifts that it brings us, as well as the burdens. We're going to explore the roots of anxiety, which are often misunderstood and often mismanaged, and we're also going to explore some really practical steps you can take both from the field of psychology and from our spiritual resources, the resources that we have in Christ, to help us heal and lead these anxious parts of us wisely,
Remember, these anxious parts that we all have are not bad. They're parts of us that need our attention and our compassion, especially when they start to operate in overdrive.
Before we get started, a couple of more resources for you from prior episodes. If you're listening and you think, man, I could really use a therapist to help me through this, Episode 71 is called All About Therapy, and I cover in that episode: how do you know if you need a therapist, how do you find a therapist and what type of therapy might work best for your needs.
It's super practical. So you can check out that episode. I also had a fascinating conversation with Curtis Chang all about anxiety. It's Episode 54 called, can I pray my anxiety away? And then lastly, in Episode 109, I had a conversation with IFS therapist, Tammy Sollenberger, and we talked all about the new Inside Out 2 movie where anxiety is the central character. There's a lot to learn from that movie and we dive into it in that episode. It's a great resource for you.
So what is anxiety? Well, in its simplest terms, anxiety is a natural reaction to stress. Sometimes we need our anxiety. When those parts of us that carry anxiety are in balance within our soul, feeling anxious can be constructive. It's part of how God designed us to protect us from danger.
So for example, feeling anxious before a job interview or a big deadline can give you energy to focus. It can help you stay alert. That kind of anxiety is actually constructive and it can help you prepare and respond to normal stressors in life.
Another example: you might feel anxious when you're with someone who's actually unsafe. Maybe they say something cruel or they use a toxic strategy to try to guilt trip you or manipulate you or diminish you, and a part of you starts to feel anxious. You feel uncomfortable. Maybe that fight, flight, flight response kicks in and you want to get away from them or you actually want to fight back and defend yourself.
In this case, anxiety is functioning as it should. It's cuing you to danger in front of you that actually needs your attention. Another example where anxiety can be constructive is before or during a major life change or event. You might feel anxious about a move or about getting married or about having a child or about parenting a child or about starting a new job.
It's normal to feel anxious when there are stressors around you. Again, we don't want to eradicate anxiety altogether. We also don't want that anxiety to become extreme. We don't want to let it take us over. Anxiety is a cue, not to go into overdrive, but instead to downshift a little bit so that you can pay closer attention to what your body, what your heart, what your soul needs from you to get through a stressful time.
A healthy amount of anxiety can kick in to help us focus, to help us pay attention, to remind us that we need to slow things down and proceed with caution, to be careful, to take good care of ourselves because something hard is happening that's going to require more from us. Maybe we need to take a few other things off our plate, or it might be a cue that something is actually dangerous or unsafe, and we need to figure out how to extract ourselves from that situation or that relationship.
It might be a cue that we need more support from people who love us and will walk with us through a challenging season. Sometimes anxiety is a cue that you've overextended your capacity, that maybe your own sensitivities or your own limitations or simply your own tank of fuel is running on empty.
You've exceeded your God given capacity. And in this case, anxiety provides a cue that it's time to step back, to downshift, to reduce some of those external pressures as best you can.
So most importantly, when you think about anxiety, what I want you to understand is that number one, we all have a relationship with anxiety. Every single one of us has anxious parts of us at its best. Anxiety is trying to help. It's a cue to pay attention. When you name anxiety for what it is, you can get some healthy distance from it, and then you can lead your anxiety instead of letting anxiety take you over.
You can learn to let anxiety work for your good instead of against you. But here's the thing: the process of learning to establish that healthy relationship with those parts of you that get anxious takes some time. And when anxiety goes unchecked inside your system, it gets extreme. You start to see the world through the lens of that anxiety.
Here are some ways that shows up. Number one, you might start to feel tense and agitated and restless in your body all the time. Anxiety often manifests physically. You might notice yourself ruminating. You can't control your anxious thoughts. You might not be able to sleep well.
You might not be able to enjoy other people or social contexts because you notice a hyper vigilance. Maybe you're always on guard with other people. You're always seeing the danger all around you, even when it's actually safer than those anxious parts of you feel.
Sometimes we get stuck in that nervous system fight-flight state, where it's really hard to access that feeling of calm during your day. It's usually not the entire day, but you have those moments where you feel calm, where you feel clear, where you have perspective, where you can release the tension in your body, where you can make good decisions, where you feel connected to other people.
When anxiety takes over, it robs you of that feeling of calm clarity inside, more days than not. You're in that anxious state where you cannot tap into that calm or that clarity, even when you do those things where typically you can find that spaciousness inside.
When it's in its proper balance, you might notice anxious feelings, anxious thoughts, but you're able to find your way back to that calm, clear place inside. But when those anxious parts of us take over and they get extreme, and they're starting to take the steering wheel. We can start to feel overwhelmed and even paralyzed. It can be really hard to get through your day when that anxiety runs big in your life.
No matter what you're experiencing when it comes to anxiety right now, whether it's fairly small in your life and you've got it in a good place, or whether you're someone who's really in anxiety's grip, I want you to hear me say, anxiety is one part of who you are. It is not all of who you are, no matter how much it feels like it is.
It's not inherent to your being. And you can find ways to get a healthy distance from anxiety so that your calm, clear, grounded, wise self can start to lead. In order to establish that healthier, relationship with anxiety. We've got to get to the root. We've got to get to the root of the different types of anxiety that you might be experiencing
Anxiety can stem from a variety of sources. When you don't pinpoint the underlying cause of it, the healing treatment for that anxiety might actually miss the mark. This happens all the time. I want to explore several common roots of anxiety. Each one has its own unique needs when it comes to softening that anxious part of you.
Number one, trauma-related anxiety. For some people, anxiety is rooted in past trauma. In these cases, anxiety acts as a survival response. It's activated by triggers from outside of you that remind you of past experiences. And a great example of this was a story shared by my guest Monique Koven back in Episode 97.
She told her story of experiencing intense anxiety and fight or flight response in her kitchen that was actually rooted in her childhood trauma. And what happened for Monique is when she went to seek help for that anxiety, the treatment that she got didn't help.
They didn't recognize that this response was rooted in trauma, in her childhood wounds. The treatment they gave her actually exacerbated her anxiety. If that's been your experience, go back and listen to Episode 97. It's super helpful to see how sometimes what people tell us we should do for our anxiety is not in fact helpful.
I really want you to understand this throughout this episode–you are your best expert about your own anxiety. Take in information from other people and from other experts, but really notice, is this working for me or is this not?
Because if it's not, I'll give it a little time, but this may not be the best way for me to work through my anxiety. Listen to your own system and notice what works, what doesn't work. Anxiety will show you–if the anxiety goes up, notice that. If the anxiety goes down, notice that.
I talk about a season in my life in my thirties where I struggled with a lot of anxiety. It was rooted situationally, and it definitely met the criteria for an anxiety disorder. I could not get it under control by myself. And I did use medication to intervene during that season for about six months, but I also tried a number of other interventions that friends and therapists and other people tried to offer me.
I'll tell you what, that was a crucible of learning about my own relationship to anxiety because some of the things that were offered to me made that anxiety worse. Very quickly, I would turn away from that approach. Other things really helped my anxiety and I started to move toward those.
Through that experience with anxiety, as painful as it was, I learned what works for me and what doesn't. And I have taken that information and incorporated it into my self-understanding to this day, so that when I notice my anxiety move from small to medium, I far more quickly know what it is exactly that I need to keep that anxiety from becoming big.
You want to become an expert and a student of your own anxiety so that you begin to understand what works for you and what doesn't. If you're seeking therapy for anxiety and you suspect that it's rooted in trauma from your past, you will want to look for trauma-informed therapeutic approaches.
Some of the best are EMDR or IFS or somatic approaches. These are approaches that understand the complex nature of anxiety and how it shows up in different people. When you identify and understand that trauma might be at the root of your anxiety, it allows for a more compassionate and holistic approach to healing that focuses on restoring that sense of internalized safety so that you begin to experience what a calm nervous system feels like.
Number two, anxiety is sometimes rooted in a biological predisposition. Some people are biologically predisposed to experience higher levels of anxiety. It doesn't mean you'll struggle with anxiety your whole life. It means you might struggle with it more than someone else.
This kind of sensitivity often shows up early in life. Maybe you have a child where you notice they're very easily startled or highly responsive to environmental changes. And this can happen when there is trauma or when there isn't trauma. There's this inherent responsiveness to the environment.
A key concept here that you may have heard is the highly sensitive person. Sometimes it's shortened to HSP. This is a term for individuals who have a heightened sensory processing sensitivity. An HSP, which I am one, tends to be more attuned to subtle changes in their surroundings. They tend to pick up on other's emotions more readily. They tend to feel overwhelmed by busy or chaotic environments.
A school day can be harder for a highly sensitive child. A work day can be harder for a highly sensitive person. I notice when I go into parties, I pick up on so much data. Even though I'm not an introvert, I still can leave feeling very exhausted and overwhelmed because I'm processing so much sensory data.
This sensitivity is a gift in many ways. I wouldn't trade it for the world, but it can also make you more prone to anxiety in response to everyday stressors. So it's incredibly invaluable information to understand about yourself. If it's true, this is how I am. There's no shame in that. But when I know how I am, I can adjust my lifestyle. I can adjust my patterns. I can adjust my capacity accordingly.
Another example of what they think to be biological predispositions are found in personality traits. We talked about these back in Episode 49, the big five personality traits that have been researched significantly that tend to be inherent. Those who score high in the trait of neuroticism, which is a trait associated with emotional sensitivity, emotional complexity and worry, these folks are going to be more likely to experience anxiety.
Again, there's a gift in that. There's a soft underbelly to being a more sensitive, finely tuned person. Introversion is another personality trait that can be linked to heightened social and situational anxiety.
Now, it doesn't mean this is true for every introvert, but it does mean that introverted individuals might feel more anxious in social settings or in high stimulation environments where they may experience sensory overload or feel drained more quickly.
So again, we're trying to get at the root here. If you're someone who notices, man, I feel really anxious in social settings. Do I have trauma in my history? Well, maybe it's possible, but maybe not. Maybe you fall in this category of someone who's an HSP or somebody who's high on one of these personality traits,
That's actually been part of your wiring since you were very young. And to name that without shame helps you accept that about yourself, honor the gift in that, and take the steps that you need to pay attention to so that you don't overload your capacity.
For people with a biological predisposition to anxiety, whether it's due to high sensitivity, personality traits, or a general heightened response to stimuli, managing anxiety often involves lifestyle adjustments.
You might need to be more careful about your commitments. You might practice stress reduction activities like mindfulness and prayer. You might rely on medication from time to time, because you have to be in an overstimulating environment for a period of time. By acknowledging the reality of your God given design, you are empowered to take steps to support as much as possible that calm place inside.
Sometimes anxiety arises as a secondary symptom of another medical or psychological condition. In psychology, we call these co-occurring conditions or rule out conditions, where anxiety is there, but it's actually not the primary issue. There's something else going on. And this is so important if you're a clinician listening.
It is so important to get to the root of what's actually causing the anxiety. And if you're not a clinician listening, this is something to talk about with a therapist, with a doctor, with your friends. What's really at the root of this anxiety? Is it trauma? Is it some sort of predisposition? Is it situational or is there something else going on here?
And some examples of that are this whole category of neurodivergence diagnoses. So for example, autism spectrum disorder. Many people on the autism spectrum experience anxiety often due to their sensory sensitivities, and their challenges with social interactions. We're going to have an episode on that, coming up next week, that I cannot wait for you to hear.
It's so important if there is anxiety to look under the engine and see what else might be going on there. Another one is ADHD. There's often heightened anxiety with ADHD where there's a challenge of managing focus and managing impulsivity. There are incredible organizational demands that are on our kids and on us, and there can be anxiety because of something happening in the brain that doesn't let me do those things very easily.
There are also other sensory processing disorders that can lead to anxiety. So again, that's what we mean by these co-occurring conditions, where you want to be sure what's really at the root of the anxiety. It's not always trauma. It's not always thought patterns that are out of whack. It's not always a predisposition. Sometimes there's something else going on that really needs to be understood.
Lastly, many of us deal with situation-specific anxiety. Maybe anxiety has not been a constant presence in your life, but it emerges in response to a specific situation or stressor. And that was my case. When I went through that bout of anxiety, it lasted a good year and it was very debilitating. It was very real, but it was also very situational.
I learned a lot through that, that I can now apply, and I haven't had symptoms that extreme since then. Situation specific anxiety often appears in specific contexts, whether it's things like public speaking or performance, or it's significant life events, whether good or bad. Sometimes moving can kick up a lot of anxiety.
Sometimes getting married can kick it up. Having children can kick it up. Sometimes really hard things kick it up. Going through a divorce, going through a relationship betrayal. These are situations that understandably will kick up anxiety. And sometimes that anxiety response exceeds your ability to cope with it.
In these cases, you may want to consider increasing your support. You might consider medication, you might consider developing better self-care practices to help support you through this challenging season.
That's a very broad overview of some of the roots of anxiety so that if you experience anxiety, you can begin to wonder, what's going on here? I wonder what this is about. And as you begin to get curious about your anxiety, you're going to be in a better position to help yourself move through it more effectively.
To close today's episode, I want to walk you through three practical approaches for working with anxious parts of you. The first relates to our thoughts. It's the cognitive approach. Cognitive approaches to anxiety are what we call top-down approaches. We're going to start with our thoughts. We're going to assume that at the root of our anxiety is our anxious thoughts.
Now, again, sometimes that's true. Sometimes it's not. If it is true, cognitive approaches will really help you. If that's not the root of your anxiety, they're not going to help you that much. You are the best student expert of your own soul.
Here's what we're trying to do with these cognitive approaches. The assumption here is that anxiety amplifies negative thoughts. We're prompted to imagine worst case scenarios through anxiety. One way to calm this anxious part of us that's spinning out all the worst case scenarios and the negative thoughts and the worries incessantly is to begin to notice those thoughts and gently question their accuracy.
So for example, if you catch yourself ruminating about all the things that might go wrong with this new job or with this relationship, and you can't stop those anxious thoughts, a cognitive approach would encourage you to capture that thought, name it, notice it. What is the thought? And then try to reframe it.
I go through a bunch of these in chapter five of I Shouldn’t Feel This Way. I call them thinking traps. Let's say you are trapped in an all or nothing thought pattern. For example, if I'm not the very best at this, I'm going to fail.
That's an anxious thought. If I'm not the very best parent in the world, my kids are going to turn out horrible. If I'm not the very best at this new job, I'm going to be a complete failure. That's an all or nothing thinking trap. As you begin to notice that thought pattern, you can then reframe it.
What if I'm not the best, but I'm also not the worst? What if I'm doing my best at this moment, and that's enough? What if it's not going to be the best case scenario, but it's also not going to be the worst case scenario? What if things turn out better than ?
You're not trying to gaslight yourself when you reframe an anxious thought. You're trying to name the anxious thought, and you're trying to say, listen, this is what's happening. This is what I feel, but what's true is maybe this isn't going as well as I would have liked, but I'm also hanging in there. I'm doing okay. And every single day I'm getting it a little bit better.
You start to talk yourself down to what's actually true. When you make that mental shift, it eases your anxious thoughts and can bring in a more grounded, hopeful, realistic perspective. This can be super helpful and it's especially helpful to do in partnership with someone else.
You can even talk through to someone else, hey, I'm catastrophizing. I'm going to the worst case scenario. Can you talk me down and talk me through to what is actually realistic? It's a holistic, grounded thing that's going on here. When you do that, it's really empowering because you can then take brave steps to address the reality of your situation, instead of that catastrophizing or that worst case scenario.
So basic questions to ask yourself, if you're noticing some of these anxious thoughts: is this thought true? Is it accurate or am I preparing for the worst? And if it's the latter, what is the worst thing that actually could happen? And is that even likely? And ask a third party objective, a trusted advisor to help you with that. What's actually true here? What's actually going on?
Facing the truth, even of things that are hard, empowers you to take brave steps through. The best scripture that supports this work of really noticing the content of your thoughts is 2 Corinthians 10:5, to take captive every thought, and examine it under the light of Christ's truth.
You can use that verse as a reminder to stop and do what I call “mind your mind”. Notice what it is that I'm thinking about. What is it that I'm worried about? I'm not doing that to shame myself. I'm doing that with a posture of curiosity. I'm trying to discern what is actually true here.
Number two are somatic approaches. Somatic approaches are bottom up approaches. We start at the body level. This can be super effective with anxiety. Anxiety tends to be in our minds. It tends to live in our heads. Sometimes, fighting fire with fire doesn't work. If you're fighting anxious thoughts with thoughts, sometimes that's too much. It doesn't work.
These bottom up approaches, starting with your body and moving up, can really be helpful. Anxiety tends to make our bodies tense up. It tends to make our breath short. It tends to make our pulse race. Anything that we can do physically to reverse those states helps reduce our anxious thoughts.
You might try grounding techniques, which means you connect with things you can see. What do I see? What do I taste? What do I smell? What do I feel underneath my feet? What do I hear? Really start to attune to those bodily senses. Another thing that helps so much to return to calm is taking deep breaths. This really works. I do this all the time. You take that deep breath, breathe in deeply, breathe out.
Right there is a physiological intervention that begins to slow down the firing of those anxious thoughts. Simply taking a walk, being outside, and movement can help to change the physiology of your body. Sometimes people will grab ice or cold water to interrupt the anxious firing, and it can really help bring you out of your anxious mind and into your body.
You might ask yourself, what physical sensations am I noticing? Do I notice myself taking short breaths? Do I notice tension in my shoulders? Do I notice that my heart is racing? And you begin to intervene physiologically.
When I think about these somatic interventions, these bottom up interventions, I think about Psalm 46:10, not as a shaming mandate, but as a reminder to take that deep breath and be still and know that I am God. That takes us into our bodies. Be still, be still. How do we become still?
We have to sink into our bodies. We have to take that deep breath. We have to release the tension in our bodies. That stillness is something we do physiologically to drop down out of our minds and into our bodies. And when we train ourselves to do that, we teach ourselves how to move out of that anxious state.
And then lastly, emotional interventions. We need to sometimes understand that anxiety is often masking deeper, more vulnerable emotions. And this is what IFS really teaches us. Anxiety is a manager part, trying to protect us from those more vulnerable emotions like sadness, like loneliness, like fear.
You can begin to notice anxiety and ask yourself, what do I fear would happen if I was a little less anxious? You will notice those more vulnerable emotions bubble up to the surface. You might start crying, you might notice grief, you might notice an incredible sorrow, you might notice feelings of pain.
You might notice some of those deeper emotions that actually need to find their way out, and anxiety has been keeping you from honoring the validity of those emotions. When you're using an emotional intervention, you might need to give yourself some space to acknowledge the more tender parts of you underneath, realizing that they're real, they're valid.
Honoring the fact that man, I'm scared. This is hard. I am really lonely. And I don't want to admit that, but it's true. Or I'm really sad about this. When you begin to honor those more vulnerable emotions underneath, paradoxically, anxiety loosens its grip.
Now, it's so important to honor those more vulnerable emotions in a safe environment, especially if you're new to this work, to talk to a friend, to talk to a therapist. Often underneath the urgency of anxiety is a tender emotion in need of your care and God's kindness. And for this one, I think about 1 Peter 5:7, to cast our anxiety, and in this case, that anxious part of us, on God, because he cares for those heavy burdens that you carry.
Whether through honoring your body, whether through capturing anxious thoughts, or whether through learning to honor those deeper places of vulnerability that exist inside all of us, the process involves continually inviting God's loving presence to be near every single part of who you are.
To be near that anxious part of you, to be near those more tender parts of you underneath that are scared, sad, or hurting, and to be very near that power that you have at the core of who you are, to regulate your breath, to regulate your movements, to ground yourself. It's incredibly empowering to do this work in partnership with God's spirit.
As you get to the root of your anxiety, you honor it, you name it without shame, and you gently invite God's presence to meet you in that place. You will begin to see the next brave steps you need to take. And with each brave step, you'll be strengthened, encouraged in a sense of your own agency, and in trust in God.
You'll begin to lead those anxious parts of you instead of the other way around. You're stepping into this place of integration where anxiety has a seat at the table, but it is no longer leading the control board of your life. Instead, you're leading with strength, and with wisdom, and you're bringing more of that strength, that wisdom, and that goodness to the other people in your life.
Are you carrying burdens that aren't entirely your own? Could understanding your family's past be the key to unlocking a healthier future?
In this powerful episode, we dive into the concept of generational trauma with my guest, Gina Birkemeier, therapist and author of the book & workbook, “Generations Deep”. Gina shares her personal and professional insights on how deep-seated family issues can affect us and how both faith and therapy play pivotal roles in healing and breaking these cycles.
You'll learn. . .
* What generational trauma is and how it subtly influences our lives
* Why Gina realized that she needed therapy and Jesus
* What epigenetics is and how our genes remember & sometimes inherit the trauma of previous generations
* How to understand cycle breaking & to end the cycle of dysfunction
* About the legacy burdens we carry from our family's past.
Resources:
- The Best of You Podcast question form
- DrAlisonCook.com/podcast
- Generations Deep: Unmasking Inherited Dysfunction and Trauma to Rewrite Our Stories Through Faith and Therapy by Gina Birkemeier
- Deuteronomy 5:9
- Boundaries For Your Soul by Dr. Alison Cook and Kimberly Miller
- GinaBirkemeier.com
If you liked this, you’ll love:
- Episode 101: I Shouldn’t Feel Angry—Exploring the Violence that Shapes Our Family Stories & How to Heal with Lisa Jo Baker
- Episode 127: Healing Childhood Wounds—The Enmeshed Family & 5 Toxic Patterns that Affect Your Ability to Thrive in Adult Relationships
Thanks to our sponsors:
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- This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.
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Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author. While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Transcript:
Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I am so delighted that you're here today for this week's episode. We are going to be diving even deeper into the theme of healing childhood wounds. We're going to focus today on an especially powerful area, and that's the area of generational trauma.
Please don't forget to leave me your questions or ideas for any future episodes on The Best of You Podcast question form. You can find that link in today's episode show notes or on my website, podcast, DrAlisonCook.com/podcast. So In last week's episode, we explored themes of enmeshment and individuation, and we went through five toxic patterns of behavior that can thwart the process of secure attachment and make it challenging for us to develop healthy relationships in adulthood.
Today, I wanted to explore how these wounds sometimes run deeper than our individual experiences. They're formed as part of a larger story passed down through generations. That's why I'm thrilled to have Gina Birkemeier with us. Gina is a licensed professional counselor with a master's degree in both psychology and theology, along with advanced training in trauma and therapeutic techniques.
She's the author of Generations Deep: Unmasking Inherited Dysfunction and Trauma to Rewrite Our Stories Through Faith and Therapy, and she brings invaluable insights into what it means to be a cycle breaker, someone who identifies, confronts, and heals generational trauma within their family.
Gina also facilitates Generations Deep Story Groups to support people in their healing journeys. Today's episode is a fascinating deep dive. We discuss a couple of really new topics to the podcast. One is the topic of epigenetics, which is this idea that external factors in life experiences can influence how our DNA is expressed. It's a really incredible field of study.
We also discuss the related concept of legacy burdens. For those of you familiar with internal family systems, the IFS model of therapy, these are those beliefs or fears or emotional patterns that are passed down through our family, sometimes through numerous generations without us even realizing it or even having direct experience of the painful events. These are really important concepts to understand because they can affect us.
They can feel like these invisible weights that we carry that keep us stuck in the past. But when you begin to identify and address these generational patterns, we can begin to break cycles of pain and create a healthier legacy, not only for ourselves, but for future generations. Please enjoy my conversation with Gina Birkemeier.
***
I'm so glad you're here today, Gina, I've known about your work for a little while and I'm so thrilled to have this conversation with you today about generational trauma and what you call “inherited dysfunction”. I think that's such an interesting way to look at it. Welcome.
Gina: Thank you. It's great to be with you today.
Alison Cook: I know your work comes from a very personal place. I'd love for you to share with us, what do you mean? By inherited dysfunction, by generational trauma. And if you're willing, I'd love to hear a little bit about that in the context of your own personal story.
Gina: I can't ever think of a time when, for some reason or another, those dots weren’t connected for me that there was something happening generationally. When I talk about that, I'm talking about the trauma and the dysfunction. A lot of times we think of trauma as these really big things, and that is true, but then also there are these identity wounds, these core wounds, that hit us in such a way that it really forms and informs what we believe about ourselves, other people, the world, and even God.
The story that I tell in the book is my personal journey and my professional journey combined . I start back with my great grandparents who immigrated over from Italy. Some of the relational trauma and dysfunction that had happened all the way back then with my great grandmother and her first marriage, how that ended, and how she ended up with my great grandfather.
And then what that perpetuated in terms of a cycle of abandonment issues with regard to the children that she had before she met my great-grandfather. And then moving into my grandparents. The story of my grandparents and how that sort of molded some things. My grandmother had some identity issues that then led her to get involved with my grandfather at a very young age, 14, and having my mom at 15.
And then the great grandparents tried to interject and how terribly wrong that went. As my mom grew up, things that she began to believe about herself that were impacted by the generation before her. And then how my mother then perpetuated that cycle once again and got pregnant with me at a very young age and was not able to roll into that parenting, nurturing role.
She ended up giving me up for adoption twice. She gave me up for adoption, took me back, then gave me up again. All before the age of two. It stayed in the family. So that complicated a lot of things as I grew up. There were a lot of secrets around me and the energy that created around me, the tones of voice that I felt directed at me, and then my adopted parents separating…there was a lot of dysfunction there.
Throughout this, there was fatherlessness, neglect, emotional neglect, emotional immaturity. There were some borderline tendencies that we can see woven through a couple of the generations, some deep heart wounds particularly in the women in my family.
That came over into my life and with me not knowing who my biological father was, my adopted father being somewhat distant, and my adopted mother having a lot of issues with prescription drugs and alcohol. There had also been a history of that in the family as well.
In my life, as I got older, I started to perpetuate some of the same exact cycles. I had an issue of sexual abuse in two occurrences, one with some kids my age and a couple instances when I was older as well in the family. One outside the family, one in the family, and how all of these things, this dysfunction, affects our sense of self, sense of others, how we connect, how we nurture, how we protect.
All of those things passed down from one generation to the next, culminating in my life and coming to a point where–I can't take any credit, I have to give God all the credit for it–it became, it has to end here.
I have this line in the book that says, it's like telling the raging trauma of the past, “You cannot come beyond this point”. It's like building a dam against those rapids, saying, you cannot rage beyond here. It ends here. And then going into that journey of what does that even look like? To first uncover what they are.
I think it was a lot of cutting the heads off of dandelions for a while, but not really pulling them up by the root, because I didn't understand what the root was. It took a lot of therapy and a lot of Jesus to get me there. Yeah.
Alison Cook: We hear this word “cycle-breaker”. What does it mean to you? You're saying in your story that this ends here. I hear that cycle-breaking. And that word is really powerful. It also can put a lot of pressure on a person. What do you mean by I'm a cycle breaker? And what does that look like in your life?
Gina: Yes, so I would say it can look like pressure, if it's coming externally. It can really feel like pressure. But what I teach in my Generations Deep Groups is that it isn't about putting pressure on yourself. It's actually about releasing a pressure valve, because there's a lot of pressure when we're carrying all the things that have been passed down to us.
We're holding on to them, and we're absorbing them. But if we can release them and let them go, there is a freedom in that. And it's a very empowering position to be in, to say, I'm breaking the cycle. Now, remember, ideally, we want to break it for the generations that come after us.
But as they grow, that's their responsibility. We can only take so much responsibility for the generations that come after us. And there's room to talk about what we need to own, and how maybe we have perpetuated some cycles with them, and how we want to do better. We may need to own some things, apologize for some things, leave room for them to tell us how things we've done have impacted them.
But really, cycle breaking is about saying, I recognize what I missed. I recognize the harm that was done to me. Thank you. I recognize the harm that maybe I did to myself, and I'm moving into a place now where I'm healing from those things. And I'm moving forward in a space of wisdom and discernment with Holy Spirit led relationships and actions.
And it feels like this big heavy term, but often it's really in the little details. It's in the little things that you do differently. I point this out in my groups a lot. I'll have participants in the group say, this is what I'm doing. And I'll say, let's slow that down. That's a cycle breaking that's going on right there.
That's a cycle breaking. Yes. And then to literally watch their posture and countenance change–oh, I can do this. I'm already doing it. I didn't even realize. I tell people often, you picked up the book, you're working through it, and looking at what the next step is. That alone makes you a cycle breaker.
Alison Cook: You're naming things. Just that very step of naming what happened. Yeah, that's really good, Gina. I want to back up a little bit, back into your story. You get into your twenties, you're becoming a young adult. Is there a moment when it occurred to you that whatever it was that you were doing, maybe it's when you become a parent yourself, where you realize, oh my gosh, this is something I've got to deal with.
Was there a moment or a couple of moments that really began to be a cycle breaking moment for you, before you even knew all of the language?
Gina: Yeah. Oh for sure before I knew the language. Absolutely. I appreciate this question. There were a couple of them. I had my daughter very young. Like I said, I started to perpetuate the same cycles that had happened before me, and it was with her. I was in so much pain and so much dysfunction.
I was actually also in a couple of abusive relationships at the time, and things were not going well in my life. I could not be the mom that she needed. I could not be present for her. And then not too long after that, I started to get my feet underneath me and then ended up pregnant with my son.
Alison Cook: How old were you at this time?
Gina: When I was pregnant with my son, I was 23 and able to say, okay, I can't do this anymore. I was in an abusive relationship and I remember this moment where I was on my knees on the bed after a night of drinking to try to numb everything in my world. I shook my fist at God and said, either you kill me, or you take over my life, because I cannot do this anymore.
Thank God that he decided in his mercy to take over instead of the alternative. That's not a formula that I'm giving. It's what happened in my life. And I will, in all transparency, admit that the next morning I woke up and said, I didn't mean it. Let me take that back. I want to take that prayer back. It was too late. He knew that I really did mean it. That in that moment of desperation, that was the most real, raw, true me. And that is who he began to minister to.
Alison Cook: There was a turning point there, when you started to reach out for help, because maybe you became aware, okay, something's got to change. Did you go to a therapist? At this point, did you go to a church community? And what kind of help did you receive at that time that was both helpful and maybe not so helpful?
Gina: Yes. I appreciate the both-and of that. So I first went to a church. It was in me to say, that's where I need to go. I went and found this church, and I will say there were a lot of really sweet, kind things about the church, but the church was very much an, okay, you had all those things in your past. You need to hurry up and clean them up and come be a part of this.
The struggle is over. You're here now. And it was a name it and claim it, no room for the process church. I came from this super chaotic, dysfunctional life, and I'm still carrying all these wounds. I use this term often–triage discharge. Now you're here and you're good to go.
I was not good to go.
Alison Cook: Zap of the wand theology.
Gina: Zap of the wand. Yeah. A lot of spiritual bypassing, a lot of hyper-spiritualization. Well-intentioned, don't get me wrong. But it was another place where I felt like I didn't fit in. I can't do this. Quite frankly, it was just, I suck at this. What is wrong with me? Why can't I do this the right way?
Alison Cook: It becomes shaming that you can't get it together enough, because you should be good now. Yeah. So you turned on yourself.
Gina: The tendency particularly for women is, they turn it on themselves. I definitely turned it on myself and slowly backed out of that church. I wouldn't say I dove back into my old ways, but I did a little bit because it was too much.
It was too much pain and I was looking for a way to numb it. And I thought, no, you can't go back to where you were. What about counseling? What does that look like? And something within me knew even then. I didn't really know what it was, I didn't know how you did it, I didn't know what it looked like, but I started looking in the phone book.
By the way, phone books used to be books with phone numbers.
Alison Cook: I remember them well.
Gina: So I started this therapy journey and I learned a lot. And it was really good. I started changing my lens and rewriting my story. I found the stones, as we say in narrative therapy, or the parts of me that I was trying to lock away, those vulnerable parts from IFS, those exiles. I was like, nope, you go away, you're too vulnerable, you're going to get us hurt. Stay over there, stay away.
I really started that journey. I was like, okay, but this isn't enough either. This all-in church thing, ignore everything that happened, that didn't do it. And then this all-in therapy thing, buy all the self-help books, do all of the things, that's not really doing it either.
I still feel like something's not right. Something's missing. It was really the intersection of the two, and finding another church, finding someone who actually became a mentor and is now a lifelong friend who was faith-informed and trauma-informed. To be able to bring the two journeys together, that was really where I was like okay, this is how you do it.
Alison Cook: That integration piece of bringing God's power and God's presence into the therapeutic process…wow. Wow. So really a journey there. One more question about your story, because what I'm hearing is, there were lots of phases, lots of trial and error, lots of reaching out for. Two steps forward, one step back, maybe another step forward, three more steps back.
That is the nature of healing. I want the listener to hear that, especially when there's a lot going on there. That's really normal. And that's what is sometimes so devastating, is when you take those steps forward and then you find yourself taking this step back, it could be tempting to give up altogether.
What I hear there is a real persistence to keep going. Okay, I got to get back up and try. As you kept doing that and as you got to that therapist that really was able to help you integrate, what was a breakthrough moment where maybe you really saw some truths? Or there was a naming that, again, it doesn't come in a moment, we'll say it was a miracle.
Yes, it was a miracle. Also, it came as a result of all of that persistence through the two steps forward, one step back. Did you have a moment like that when you got to that integrated piece?
Gina: Yeah, so I will say I think it was a lot of little moments that came together. And I also want to say something else about that whole idea of the forward and the back and the forward and the back. It took me a little while to realize that what felt like backwards wasn't really backwards.
It actually was, I have all these things that are really painful, and it feels like I'm back there again, but I have a new level of awareness. I have a new level of accountability, a new level of recognition, a new level of ability to grieve. It isn't always backward.
Sometimes it's because you've stepped forward and now, something else has been revealed to you and that can sometimes feel like backward, but that doesn't mean it is.
Alison Cook: That’s good. That's really powerful. That's a huge breakthrough right there.
Gina: Yeah. And that was a huge piece for me. And even realizing some of those things in the moment and being like, okay, but no, you're not actually doing what you used to do. You're not having that old response, or at least not at that level. You're not actually where you were and you have new tools.
One of the things that kept empowering the journey forward was how I did begin to see how things we’re talking about in therapy go really well with what scripture says. Oh, my emotions are actually not the enemy. We’re created in the image of an emotional God. We see it in scripture, the whole gamut of emotion, and that's part of our image-bearing.
Then to be able to say, now I recognize the top-down and the bottom-up of it all. And how we can even see that in scripture. The integration was the fuel, and grace. I don't want to leave that out of the conversation. Yes, embracing God's grace, believing in his grace for me, but also learning how to have some grace for myself.
One of the most effective ways that came was in learning how to have grace for the generations before me. And I don't mean letting them off the hook, or minimizing what happened, or how it impacted me. But about having that grace.
Alison Cook: Yeah, that's what I was curious about. In that journey, I'm sure boundaries became a part of it. And forgiveness, which is always a really challenging word when we are recognizing and naming really hard things that happen to us, especially with our families.
That both-and of naming really honestly, because we have to see the truth in order to be set free, and also figuring out the boundaries. I imagine that was also a huge part of this journey.
Gina: As far as boundaries are concerned, I talk about this one a lot because this can be really hard. I want to say a couple of really important things about boundaries from my perspective. What I walk through with clients and what we talk about in Generations Deep groups is that boundaries are important, but the way you make the boundaries might even be more important.
We don't make them out of anger. We don't make them out of fear. Because when we're no longer afraid and we're no longer angry, we have a tendency to then not hold the boundary. And then we teach people that we don't mean what we say. We open ourselves up to these boundary violations all the time.
I think that's something to be careful of. The other thing is that you get pressure from family. Blood is thicker than water. Blood is thicker than water. You are supposed to keep this tie, no matter what. And I'm laughing a little bit because every time in group, I will say, that was told to me too. Blood is thicker than water, blood is thicker than water.
And then typically I will say, do you know what that whole phrase is? Do you know where blood is thicker than water comes from? It's, “the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb”.
Alison Cook: Whoa.
Gina: It's actually the reverse. It actually means something completely different. So as people are telling you, blood is thicker than water, blood is thicker than water. It's actually that the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.
It is saying in those covenantal relationships, whether they're genetic or not, that is the strong bond. That is where the strength is. It isn't about the DNA imprints.
Alison Cook: It's the new family you've created.
Gina: That God has given us. Absolutely.
Alison Cook: Yeah, that's powerful. That's really powerful. So tell us a little bit, you've clearly at some point decided to become a therapist and to go into the work of helping others heal. How did you make that decision? And now you're doing all this amazing work to help others.
How did you make that decision? And what was that like for you to become a guide for others through their healing journeys?
Gina: It started in pastoral care. I started there, and then pretty quickly realized I wanted to do more. I wanted to walk further along with people than what pastoral care afforded me the opportunity to do. I did a lot of crisis things with women in domestic violence situations, women coming out of prison, single moms, homeless moms.
I did a lot of that work initially, a lot of outreach, and then my mentor who had been a part of my life that I met through church said, I think you need to move forward and go formally get educated and go do this. I was like, okay, sure. It was not really going to happen.
I'll do it because this person I respect is asking me to do it. I thought, I'll figure it out. But the more I learned about it, I was like, no, I actually could do more. I actually could do more. And God opened the door for me to do that pretty quickly. I started to have the idea for the book while I was in my Master's program.
Because like I had said, for some reason, my brain always connected those dots of transgenerational dysfunction and trauma. I knew I wanted to write a book about it. So in getting my education as a therapist and also getting educated on epigenetic influences and what that has to do with trauma, and then bringing those things together eventually led me to do the book.
I was doing the generational trauma work long before the book came out. But then the book came out and God has been so kind and ridiculously generous with how he has allowed me to help other people and walk with other people.
He has allowed, not nationally, but internationally, for the book to be used in Guatemala and Nicaragua and Zimbabwe, and across the US. It has been amazing. Pretty quickly from there, I had people asking, because there's questions in the book, but I would get a lot of feedback.
Are you going to do a separate workbook where we can put the answers to the questions? That's when the workbook was born along with the Audible version of the book. And then I guess it was maybe not even a whole year after that, that we had Generations Deep groups that were launched.
We do those, and I train other therapists on how to run the Generations Deep groups as well. It's been really incredible.
Alison Cook: That's amazing. What do we mean by this term, epigenetics? It's really fascinating. Can you expand on that a little bit?
Gina: For a long time we believed that our DNA was it. You get what you get and that's it. If you have fill in the blank, whatever you have, if you get diabetes, if you have. Alcoholism, depression, it could be whatever. Those were things that were passed to you genetically and you would have to deal with that genetic soup that we're all given.
What we now know is that it's far less about genetics and it's more about epigenetics. So epi, think above. Above the DNA, the thing that influences the DNA. We all have these epigenetic influencers in our lives. They can be anything from our nutrition, our environment, what we're consuming holistically, how we are raised, what has formed and informed us.
There are some interesting twin studies out there where two twins are separated and one's raised one way and one's raised another and they come back together. While they have the same DNA, they have completely different lives. And we've seen this in research they did in Emory, where that cortical response to fear of a negative stimuli can be passed down from the mice in this generation to the next without even introducing them to that negative stimuli.
They're born afraid of these certain things because of that. But the really cool and fascinating thing is that we also know from epigenetics that it doesn't have to be that way. God, in his infinite wisdom, did not give us a trauma box. There's not this place in our brain where the trauma has to always live there and we carry it around like this boulder on our back.
We're actually wired for healing. We're not wired for the harm that comes. Epigenetically, we have this power to influence our lives, the lives of our children, the lives of our grandchildren, our great grandchildren, to afford something different for the generations to come.
Alison Cook: Yeah, that's so good. There's always been biblically this idea of the sins of the generations being passed down. There's a way in which now, science is almost upholding that. Sometimes sin doesn't feel like the right word for it, but the trauma of the generations is passed down.
I love that example of that fear response–it can be part of your DNA. And that doesn't mean you're locked into it. That doesn't mean it can't change. We can also have these restorative experiences.
Gina: That's really how I opened the book. The sins of the father visited to the third and fourth generation. A couple of things about that. I used to hate that verse so much, because I thought, back when I was deep in my own wounding, how does a loving God crack a whip that leaves a mark three and four generations out?
Why is that a thing? As I started healing and learning about all of this, what I realized is no, that's not what's being said. What's being said is if you don't own it and do something with it, it has the potential to affect three and four generations. And I thought, wow that's so interesting, especially as I learned about epigenetics.
What we know is that if there is no intervention, like I talked about with that born trauma response, if there is no intervention, it will take three to four generations for that to naturally be evolved out of the generations.
It takes three to four generations for that to naturally subside. But with intervention, it can change rapidly. Which brings me to the other scripture that talks about the fathers having eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. That appears I think twice in scripture, and people will quote that as proof of oh, it's passed down, but actually the prophets around them were saying, stop saying that.
That's not true. That's not true. Stop saying that. even to know that there was that interjection of hope, even then, it's not true. It doesn't have to be true. We can do something else.
Alison Cook: I love that. I think you're saying something really important. Number one, those scriptural sayings, it's not God's punishment or declaration of, this is how I'm going to punish you. It's almost a warning, of fact. This is what's going to happen. If we don't deal with this, it will be passed down.
You're not only hurting yourself, you are hurting the next generations. It widens the lens and it can be a really helpful motivation to be a cycle breaker. To your point, it's not just about me. My life has ripple effects. It matters.
And that's not pressure in that sense of, you better get it right. It's a truth that can propel us to yearn to do the work because the work is hard and it can be frustrating. It's not easy. In IFS there's a term called legacy burdens. Are you familiar with that?
Gina: Very much. Yes.
Alison Cook: For the listener, a legacy burden in IFS terminology is basically that we have these burdens that we pick up from our past, the parts of us that have been wounded. They carry a deep pain that isn't in the present moment. So you might become aware that you have a burden if you completely lash out at a friend or at your sister or at your kids.
It's way disproportionate to the offense that occurred, and you might be tapping into a wounded part of you that's lashing out from decades of pain versus the pain of the present moment. Part of the work of IFS is going and finding these exiles that carry these burdens and unburdening them.
One of the things in IFS that Dick Schwartz and others began to notice is that sometimes, legacy burdens don't originate in your own story. They originate in your family history. You might have a legacy burden as it relates to alcoholism, even if you were not an alcoholic yourself. You might have a legacy burden as it relates to your ancestors who were slaves, even if you were not a slave yourself.
You might carry some of that pain inside of you, even if that specific thing didn't happen to you. Tell me a little bit about how you view legacy burdens and how that weaves into this conversation about epigenetics and generational trauma.
Gina: I would say a legacy burden is a really great example of epigenetics. That's something that's been passed down, not even so much in DNA, but what influenced the DNA. I say in the book that shame can be a legacy. Shame can be a legacy.
There's a part in the book where I say, some of this you might be wondering, is this connected to something in my past? Or I have this struggle that I can't really name. I know that this is how I feel when these things happen. And I don't really know where it came from and I don't think I had an experience like that.
That's probably time to think about how you're carrying something that most likely is from the generations before you. But what's beautiful is when we do the work, it's a past, present, future work. We do the work here and now, but the work is effective for the past, present, and future. What we've carried is what's being addressed, the past. We're doing it in the present of our life, and then we're passing that on to the future.
Alison Cook: That's so good. That's so good. What's one piece of wisdom, Gina, you would give to someone listening who's maybe in those early stages of healing, of recognizing some of these burdens. They’re maybe feeling discouraged because they're having that experience of getting a little help and then falling right back into old ways.
What's one piece of wisdom you would offer to that listener?
Gina: I would say that I understand that feeling, and just because it feels like you're falling back doesn't necessarily mean that you are. Take inventory of what you know to be true that you have learned, that is different from what you had then.
What you're doing now, we know from all of the science, from all of the research, that your brain is wired for that new capacity. You can do this, but have grace for yourself in the process and do not do it alone, because that isolation thing will feed the shame and the shame will feed the cycle of dysfunction.
You want to find that safe space of community. In terms of the generational piece, when you're trying to figure out, am I passing down something I don't want to pass down, or I think I am, and how do I change it? That's the time to say, even thinking about some of your work, Alison, in Boundaries For Your Soul, that's the time to think about, okay, what did I miss, or what harmed me as a child?
Have I been able to heal from that? And have I been able to give myself what I need to accept it from God, from the relationships around me? And if I haven't, then I need to go get some help in doing that. There's no shame in that. When I can say, yes, I've been able to name what I missed and name what harmed me and do this work of healing, you will naturally then pass something different onto your kids because you're different inside.
Alison Cook: I love that. That's so hopeful. Just that naming is so hopeful. I love that. Tell us a little bit more about your book, the workbook, and these groups and other things that you're doing to help people heal for those who want to learn more.
Gina: Generations Deep and the workbook are great for people to do with their therapist, one on one. Read the book, it's a great way to dip a toe in the water. I take a pretty gentle approach in the book, and the idea is bringing them through my story first.
I think that kind of feels like a fellow traveler thing. The feedback that we've received is that it really feels like walking with. The second half talks a little bit more about the therapy side of it. It talks about what it is, being with Jesus and being with a therapist and those two things integrated together. What does that even mean?
I think that it's appropriate for a lot of people who might not be ready, but also for people who are on the journey and they're looking for the next step. The groups, you can reach out through my website, GinaBirkemeier.com and find out about the groups. We have them online. We have them in person.
Also, I do training for therapists who want to either do the one on one work with my book and workbook, or if they want to actually do groups themselves. I train therapists on how to do that as well. And then there's an Audible version that has some extras, some interviews with people and those interviews have been helpful to a lot of listeners.
They’re some extra things to think about in terms of this journey of healing. In my practice, we have started something called the Collaborative Care Initiative, which has been a long term dream of mine to bring multiple practitioners under one roof to truly provide that holistic model of care. And to make it available to a broad socioeconomic base.
So we have all of our therapists, 43 therapists, and then we're bringing on spiritual directors, nurse practitioners, psychiatric nurse practitioners, trauma-informed somatic release and body practices. We have a whole variety of people that we're bringing on and are really excited about the growth.
We have neurofeedback, and it's been really great to bring all of these people under one roof. These adjunct practitioners, I bring them in to do educational pieces for our therapists. So it's really for the therapists to learn how to be holistically-minded as well.
It's been a little bit “ready fire aim” rather than “ready aim fire”, but it's been great. And our hope is that we'll be able to build a model that might be replicable for other practices around the country.
Alison Cook: Is it mostly online?
Gina: No, it's mostly in person, but there are online options.
Alison Cook: And where are you located?
Gina: We're in Missouri.
Alison Cook: That's incredible. What a vision. Wow. Where could people find you if they want to learn more about your work and about this collective?
Gina: Find me at GinaBirkemeier.com and I'm on the socials. They can find me @myoutloudvoice on the socials.
Alison Cook: Gina, what would you say to that younger you, 23, 24, 25, what would you want her to know from where you are now?
Gina: That makes me a little teary. I think I would want her to know not to give up. That she was worth more than what she realized. And not to do it alone, to stop trying to do it alone. That God had so much more for her, for us. That there would come a time when she could look back and say, the work was hard, but the work was good.
Alison Cook: I love that. I love that. And what's bringing out the best of you right now?
Gina: Oh gosh. Family things, new grandchildren, this collaborative care. I'm also working on my PhD right now. The doctoral program is incredible. It brings out, I would say, the good, the bad and the ugly, but in a great way.
I'm having the privilege of working with clinicians in Ukraine right now, and that has really been an incredible humbling experience. God is meeting me in ways that I had not anticipated through all of those things and I'm so grateful and I think it is bringing out the best in me and it is also calling me to refinement in other areas as well, which I hope He will continue to do while I'm here on this earth.
Alison Cook: That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us for all that you're doing. I'm so grateful to have this conversation with you today.
Gina: Thanks, Alison.
Are patterns from your past influencing how you show up in relationships today?
In this episode, we explore how early family dynamics—like criticism, control, & emotional immaturity—shape our adult relationships. This process isn’t about placing blame but about building awareness of behaviors that impact self-worth, boundaries, and relational health. By naming these patterns, we open a path to greater confidence, healthier connections, autonomy, and healing.
In this episode, we cover:
* The two essential ingredients for building secure parent-child attachment
* The role of enmeshment and individuation in emotional health
* 5 common parenting patterns that disrupt secure attachment
* 5 questions to assess how these patterns may be impacting you today
* Practical steps to heal and change
Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here.
Have questions or episode ideas? Leave them here.
If you enjoyed this episode, you'll love:
The Best of You: Break Free From Painful Patterns, Mend Your Past, and Discover Your True Self In God
Episode 109: Healing Burdens From the Past—How to Overcome Childhood Wounds and Heal Your Younger Self with Tammy Sollenberger
Resources:
- The Best of You by Dr. Alison Cook
- Episode 16: What are Attachment Styles and Why Does it Matter?
- Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents by Lindsay Gibson
Thanks to our sponsors:
- Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
- This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.
- Go to thrivemarket.com/bestofyou for 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift!
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Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author. While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Transcript:
Alison: Hey everyone. And welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I'm so thrilled to be with you today. We are diving into a topic that resonates with every single one of us. It's that parent-child relationship–particularly how our own parents shape us well into adulthood.
Please hear me say, we are not here to lay blame on parents today, because a lot of us are parents, and so we're very well aware of all of our own shortcomings. The minute we start looking back and looking at our own childhoods and looking at some of our own wounds, it can stir up some of that terror inside of us.Oh my goodness, I hope I'm not doing this to my own child.
This is very unique to all of us. Our generation of parenting, whether you're parenting young kids or teenagers, or maybe your own kids have already left the nest, we're so much more aware of these wounds that we all bring from childhood into adulthood. Again, we're not here to lay blame. As I like to say, we're here to name. We're not labeling other people, we’re naming patterns of behavior.
In this case, we're naming patterns of behavior that maybe occurred when we were children that have an influence over who we are today. These patterns of behavior are real. They affect us. And we need to be able to name them in order to understand their effect on us today and how we can heal and change things, not only in our own lives, but as we parent our own kids.
So remember, we're here to name, not blame, but it is so important to do this work so that we can heal from the past and move forward with confidence and clarity in claiming the life God has for us.
Many of you have written to me about various forms of challenges in your relationships with your own parents, whether you're caring for aging parents, or whether you're aware of some of the residual effects of your own childhood on your current life.
This question comes up in so many different ways. For example, Mary wrote to me that she really appreciated the episodes on emotional immaturity and that she would love to hear me talk about the specific challenges for children who are caring for aging parents who are emotionally immature.
Bernadette wrote that she's coming to terms as an adult with some insecurity issues that resulted in deficits from her imperfect parents. She wrote in parentheses, we’re all imperfect, which is exactly true. That's exactly right. We are all working to heal from some of these deficits, no matter how good or toxic your parents and primary caregivers were.
And then Leslie wrote this beautiful message, talking about how it's only been in the last two years that she has begun to realize that she is not a terrible person. The messages she received from a very critical and emotionally abusive mother were actually about her mother’s issues and her unresolved pain, and had absolutely nothing to do with the beautiful soul that she was.
Thank you for writing about that, Leslie. I'm so grateful that you are learning that you are worthy of love. You were worthy of care and you are finally learning that you were not the problem in that relationship.
Those are a few of the many messages I've received from people who are really trying to come to terms with the wounds from the past and then figure out, how do I heal myself now? How do I also ensure that I don't pass these wounds down on to the next generation? What about when I need to care for these people, especially aging parents who have actually been really harmful to me and, and now I have to figure out how to care for them?
Okay, so that's the lay of the land of this topic. We're not going to get into every single aspect of that today. I've got a couple of episodes coming up designed to address a lot of this. If you continue to have questions, you can always leave those questions for me on The Best of You Podcast question form. There's a link to it in this episode show notes. You can also go to my website, dralisoncook.com/podcast, and find that link on this episode's webpage.
I love hearing from you. It's really helpful for me to take in this information from you so I can see what you're grappling with. When I start to see themes emerge, it helps me understand, oh, we need to do some episodes on this. So thank you for taking the time to write to me about these topics.
Now listen, before we get started, some of you may have really healthy relationships with your parents. Maybe they're not perfect, but for the most part, your parents were reliable. They showed up for you, they support you. Even when there were ruptures, you knew that you could repair, you knew that you could find a way back to each other
For some of you listening, there's no relationship anymore with your parents. The relationship got so toxic and the trauma was so deep. You can't be in a relationship with those people. And that's so painful, when you have to remove yourself from those relationships.
For many of you listening, you're somewhere in the middle with your parents. There were some really good and supportive things that you got from your parents, and there were also some hard things, some things you're trying to unlearn no matter where you fall on that spectrum.
So there are two crucibles where we typically become aware of these childhood wounds. Number one is our intimate relationships. Our intimate relationships, especially our marriage relationships, are so often the relationships where suddenly we begin to notice our own patterns and we're like, oh my goodness, why can't I engage in a healthy conversation about conflict?
I tend to go into flight mode or I go into fight mode or I shut down or I withdraw. Oh my goodness, that's what I did in my family of origin. That's what I had to do in my family of origin to survive. That's great knowledge, but now I've got to figure out how to heal so that I can show up in this current relationship in a different way.
That's one of the gifts of intimate relationships; they bring to the surface some of these areas where we've got wounds from our past that we need to heal so that we can show up differently in the current relationship going forward.
The second big place where a lot of these wounds begin to surface is when we have kids of our own. We begin to realize, oh my goodness, I didn't even realize. Now I'm trying to parent this child. I want to do it differently. And suddenly I notice myself behaving in ways I don't like. I notice myself getting angry. I notice myself getting avoidant. I notice myself avoiding these hard conversations.
Or I notice myself having a really hard time figuring out how to set boundaries, or I notice myself having a really hard time when I need to let my child find their own way apart from me. We begin to notice some of these patterns that likely go all the way back to our own childhoods, when we begin to parent ourselves.
The stakes can feel really high, because we begin to realize, I've got to heal these patterns because I don't want to repeat them in these relationships I care so much about in this present day with my spouse, with my kids, with my friends. I want to say to you right at the top of this episode, the goal is not perfection.
This is a process of awareness–yeah, I've got some growing to do. I've got some things from the past I have to undo and it's going to take me a little while, but my ability to name those things and begin to even say some of those things to the people that I love, “Hey, I know I'm not great at conflict. I know sometimes I can actually flee any conflicts before it even surfaces.
And I want to let you know that I'm aware of that. And I may not be able to change that right away, but I'm going to work on it. And I promise you, I'm going to keep coming back.” Or you might need to say to those loved ones, “I know I've got some anger. I can get really angry and I'm becoming more and more aware of it and I want you to know that I see it and I'm working on it. When I notice it, I can become aware of it more quickly and I can come back to you and say, I'm sorry that didn't come out right. Can we do a take two on that conversation?”
There are lots of ways you can let your loved ones know, I'm healing some stuff here. These patterns go way back. I'm not going to change overnight, but I'm aware. I'm honoring that and I'm committed to growing and healing and moving forward in a new and better way.
When you give yourself that spaciousness, you're calming your nervous system, which allows you to show up more authentically, with more calm, with more courage, with more confidence. If your spouse or your friend came to you and said, hey, I know I still do this thing. It's got a long tail. It goes all the way back. This is deeply rooted. I'm aware. I'm sorry. I know that's hard for you. We don't expect people to change on a dime, but that awareness is a huge step toward health in all of our relationships.
So remember you're committing to this journey of healing. We often on the podcast use that Greek word, sozo, in the Bible that means salvation that can also be translated as healing. We are on this journey of sanctification. We are on this journey of being made more and more like Christ, which means being made more and more like that person who God wants us to become, the most beautiful version of ourselves.
This is a process that we will be on throughout our entire lifetime. But every single step you can take to own it, to honor it, to name it without shame, both to yourself and to your loved one, is a huge step and a success in and of itself.
I want to start off by naming some key anchoring terms, because I'm going to be using these terms a lot. And then I'm going to move into the five toxic patterns of behaviors that may have impacted you as a child and that you're carrying with you into adulthood.
The first word I want to name is enmeshment. Sometimes, the emotional bond between a parent and child becomes so intertwined that it's hard to distinguish who you are and your own feelings, your own thoughts, your own beliefs from that of your parents. This is what we mean by enmeshment. We can actually become too close, too enmeshed. We become so caught up in another person that we don't know where they end and I begin.
When you're a child, you are dependent on the adult who is caring for you to be the adult. It's the adult's responsibility to help honor that balance, that dance. I go deep into this topic in my book, The Best of You. I call it that dance between connection and autonomy, closeness and distance.
We need both in healthy relationships, and it's the parent's job to really delineate that dance of being close, but also honoring difference. I love you. You are my child, and, you're different from me. You're a unique individual. It's my job sometimes to step back and see you for who you are as someone different from me.
That's a really nuanced dance between parent and child. Enmeshment occurs when a parent begins to blur those lines, and typically the parent is depending too much on the child. They want to see the child as an extension of themselves. This creates a blurred boundary between parent and child.
Enmeshment can make the healthy process of what psychologists call individuation, the process of becoming your own person, really, really difficult. Even if you've created physical distance, that emotional hold can remain really strong. Someone who grew up in an enmeshed relationship where your parent kind of lived their life through you, even when you moved away from home, even when you got your own job, maybe even got married, even had kids or yourself, you might find yourself struggling to know what you think, know what you want, know your own feelings as separate from the people who raised you.
You might even feel guilty about that. That's because it's been really hard for you to individuate. A parent's job is to essentially raise your child to leave you. I think about this in nature. We see in moms that there's a point at which you're raising that child, you're nurturing that child, but eventually you aware that child has to leave the nest and learn to fly without you.
When you have that endgame in mind, when you understand that eventually your child needs to leave you, you're going to love that child, but you're also going to equip them to leave you to function on their own apart from you. That's your job. And when you do that well, your child will be delighted to continue to stay connected to you because those roles are clear.
You've built that trust. You've made yourself a safe place for your child to return to as an adult, because paradoxically, you've honored their need to leave you. You're not trying to keep them close to you in an unhealthy way. You get that your best way of staying close to your child is to honor that they need to leave you. It's a beautiful paradox.
Now, the other term I want to throw out here is attachment theory. Some of you might be thinking about attachment as I'm talking, and it can be a really helpful framework for understanding how our earliest bonds with our caregivers shape our future relationships.
I did a whole episode on attachment styles in episode 16, so you can go back and listen to that episode. We'll link to it in the show notes. But for today's purposes, it's important to understand that a secure attachment happens when your parents offer that consistent love and support, where they're allowing you to feel safe with them.
But here's the thing. They're allowing you to feel safe with them so that you can explore life independent from them. That's the essence of secure attachment. I'm safe enough with these people who love me that I can go out into the world and explore it on my own. And there are different milestones that I go through in The Best of You of how that happens at different junctures and different ages.
Throughout your developing years as a child, that's essentially what's happening–a healthy, secure attachment. There's that safety from those parents at home that allows you to go out and explore the world independently. And when that doesn't happen, we start to notice those anxious attachments, those avoidant attachments, those mixed attachments, where we don't have that safety at home.
It inhibits our ability to explore the world outside of us with confidence. So there are a lot of things that can disrupt secure attachment. Abuse disrupts secure attachment, neglect disrupts secure attachment, and enmeshment can disrupt secure attachment where it's not actually safe in the sense of that stable home base where this person loves you, but does not need you.
When enmeshment occurs, this person loves you to make themselves feel better. There's a sense of closeness that you learn to understand as comfort when you're doing what the caregiver wants and needs you to do for their sake. That feels like comfort, but it's not actually safety.
So here's what I want you to remember. Healthy parent-child relationships are built on two key building blocks. Connection and separation; both are necessary. A parent's job is to help you develop a strong sense of self while also supporting you as you learn to live your own life.
This involves encouraging you to learn how to trust your own instincts, how to make your own decisions, how to explore your own ideas and feelings. And that leads to healthy individuation. When enmeshment occurs, you can feel like you're betraying your caregiver. You can feel like you should defer your own needs, your own instincts, your own decision-making, to fulfill the perceived needs of the parent.
Now, there's a really good book–I've recommended this book before. It's a bestselling book by Lindsay Gibson. It's called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. And there's a reason this book is everywhere, because this text so clearly lays out what some of these patterns look like in emotionally immature parents.
I'm going to give a really condensed version of how I have noticed some of these behaviors of an emotionally immature parent showing up. But that's really what's happening here. It's where a parent doesn't have the maturity to do what the child needs to become a healthy autonomous adult.
Number one is unpredictability. When your parents’ emotional states are unpredictable, maybe they had an undiagnosed mental illness, maybe there was an addiction, maybe they had a lot of emotional outbursts, or any difficulty managing their own emotions, where they couldn't take responsibility for their own emotions.
That can leave a child with that anxious attachment. There isn't that sense of safety. It's like one day, mom is great. The next day, mom can't get out of bed. And there's nothing to explain that. I want to be clear. It's not that parents can't struggle while raising kids. We can, but we have to be able to name it for them. We have to be able to talk to our kids about that.
Listen, your dad struggles with depression. Sometimes you're going to notice that he has a hard time getting up. It has nothing to do with you. He's getting help for that. We're working on that. We love you. Here's what's happening. This isn't your fault.
It's in the absence of that communication and that honoring of what's truly happening that kids begin to make up stories. This is my fault. And kids start to connect dots that aren't meant to be connected when there's unpredictability. I come home from school and my mom is really sad today and she's not naming that. She's crying off in the corner and I can see that and that affects me, but she's not talking to me about it. I don't know what's happening.
So as a child, in my little brain, what I assume is, this is my fault. I have to come home from school every day, super duper happy, because somehow the way I'm coming home from school is making mom behave differently, even when that's not true.
So again, unpredictability is when a parent's emotional state is unpredictable and unaccounted for. The parent does not take responsibility for what's happening. Another example, a parent loses their temper and gets really angry. We don't love that. That's not great. That's hard for kids. But what makes it even harder is when it goes unaddressed and unnamed and unrepaired.
If a parent is struggling with an anger issue and they sometimes come down hard, the ability to come back and say, I got angry, I have a temper. That is not your fault. You did nothing to evoke that kind of reaction in me, that's my fault. That's my job, to work through that anger. That is not your fault.
We're naming it, which allows the child to release the pain of that and understand that it's not their fault and see an adult be an adult. An adult takes responsibility. An adult takes accountability and hopefully, presumably, the adult begins to make changes as well.
Unpredictability can also be part of neglect. Sometimes a parent is absent. They're not in the room. They might not be yelling. They might not be crying, but due to their own problems and their own heartaches and their own hardships, they're maybe going through the motions of sitting at the dinner table, of getting you to bed, getting you to school, but they're absent.
There's no emotional presence and it's erratic. Sometimes they're present. A lot of times they're not. Kids make up narratives in the absence of consistency. They will make up a narrative about that. Those narratives are almost always self-shaming. It's my fault. I'm the problem.
Number two, the other one I see so commonly, is what we call parentification. This occurs when the parent relies on the child to meet the parent's emotional needs. So if you were conditioned to take care of your parent's emotions, you became the parent for your parents, you may struggle to understand healthy boundaries in adult relationships.
You may feel like it's your job to be the adult in the room for everyone around you. You may take on more responsibility for other people's emotions than is your responsibility to take. It's really hard to change this pattern if you were parentified as a child. So for example, even with a well meaning parent, maybe you're a highly empathetic kid.
You're pretty precocious, and you can read the cues and you can tell that mom is sad, or dad is upset, and you go to them and you say, oh man, are you okay? Slowly, over time, mom or dad or whoever the person is caring for you begins to confide in you. This is really hard.
You actually have the ability to be there for them, to help them through those emotions, to cheer them up, to make them feel better. Maybe as you begin to get a little older, you might even have wisdom for them and slowly, you start parenting your parents.
Now listen, when you're in an adult relationship with your parents, this is going to happen a little more. We move into two-way relationships a little bit more with our parents as we become adults, although it's always really a one-way relationship, because a parent always has more power than the child, even in adult parent-child relationships.
But man, when you're a kid, if the primary means by which you're relating to a parent is that you're caring for them, it's a big problem, because two things are happening there.
Number one, you're learning how to always prioritize someone else over your own needs. And number two, you're not getting your needs met. Think about that. You're not getting your needs met as a child. Your parent isn't attuning to you and attuning to your emotional states and saying things like, I love your empathy. I love that you care about me, but I want you to know this is not your problem.
This is my problem. I'm the adult here. Thank you for noticing that I was sad. I appreciate that. And this is not your problem to solve. This is my problem. I'm an adult. I have other adults who will help me through this. I'm here for you. I want to know what's going on with you.
That's what a healthy parent does in those situations. It's not that we don't want to honor the empathy of our kids. It's beautiful, but we don't want to take that slippery slope down to letting our kids parent us. And it happens all the time. We have to watch that as parents, because two things are happening there.
They're overdeveloping that attunement muscle to other people, but they're also underdeveloping what it feels like to have someone else attune to them. And this sets you up for all kinds of issues in adult relationships. When you go into your adulthood, you don't know what it looks like to be in a relationship with someone who's there for you. You only know how to show up for other people, and that sets you up for a lot of codependency.
It sets you up to be taken advantage of by other people. It sets you up for one-way relationships that are unsatisfying, where a lack of intimacy occurs. So this is a big one to understand if you see some of those patterns in your adult life, where you really have a hard time receiving care from others, asking for what you need, even identifying what you need.
It may well be that you grew up in an environment where you had to be the adult. From a very young age, you were pretty good at assessing the needs around you, but you did not know how to be a child and receive the care of someone else. And that's really important in healthy relationships, the ability to both give out and receive care.
Thirdly, we're going to talk about criticism. If you grew up in a culture of constant criticism, this damages your core sense of self. It's really hard for a child to understand that all of this criticism around me is not actually about me. Because these are my parents. They know best. That's what kids think.
So all of this criticism that I'm getting, that must be the truth. I must be a bad kid. I must not be okay. They're criticizing me for a reason. This is really unhealthy. We don't grow up with a healthy sense of our goodness, of our God given worth, of the beauty in our soul.
We grow up feeling inferior, feeling insecure, feeling unworthy. We don't understand inherently that we are a beloved child of God. You can heal, but it is so important to begin to connect those dots and go, you know what? Part of the reason I can't actually believe in myself and believe that I'm worthy of good love is that I've never experienced it.
I've been told in one way or another that I was worthless, that I wouldn't amount to anything, that I was a failure, that I could never get anything right since the day I was born. I don't have any other memories. So how would I know what it's like to internalize an entirely different message, which is, “I am beloved. I am worthy of love. I'm not perfect. Of course, who is? And I am a beautiful soul made in the image of God”?
Number four, control. If you grew up in an environment that was highly controlled, again, sometimes well-intended parents want to keep you overly safe and they want to control everything. Sometimes it's out of a good intention, but they don't let you take enough healthy risks.
Sometimes it's coming from a selfish motivation, where they're more concerned about how they appear in the world. They control your behavior so they can look good in the world to their friends. They want you to go to the right school or play the right sport or have the right friends. And that's really more about them than it is about you.
So whether that's coming from a desire to keep you from harm and they control too much, or if it's coming from a more self-serving place, it makes it hard for you when you get into your adult world to understand how to take healthy risks. If you grew up in a highly controlled environment, you might go one of two directions.
You might take too many risks and overcorrect and kind of blow everything up. Or you might be really, really scared and stay really, really small because you've never learned how to develop that healthy resilience, that healthy tolerance for some of the uncertainty, some of the stressors, even some of even the hardships of life.
Lastly, I want to talk about rescuing, and I see this in certain types of families where the parents, out of usually a goodness of heart, they're constantly swooping in and rescuing kids out of any discomfort, out of any hardship. They're fighting their kids' battles. Now, sometimes as parents, we need to intervene on behalf of our kids. Something's happening that is wrong. There's an injustice and we need to intervene to protect our kids. That is absolutely true.
But in parents who are rescuing, it's those normal everyday incidents. I didn't get invited to this birthday party. No, they're not ganging up and bullying me, but they're not including me in their group, and it's really painful. As a parent, we have to help our kids honor that that's hard and also teach them how to tolerate the pain of that.
Two things can be true. You have to learn how to navigate challenges in life. You have to learn how to do that with your parents there as that safe anchor. They're never going to leave you, but they're also not always swooping in to rescue you out of it. Sometimes doing things that are hard or even doing things where we try and we're not successful at them are really important for our character and our growth.
Rescuing can also create a situation in which you arrive at adulthood without those necessary skills to tolerate the things that come our way in life as adults. There can sometimes be an entitlement, a constant kind of feeling disappointed by other people, when maybe those other people are actually exhibiting normal behaviors.
They're not taking responsibility for something that isn't theirs to take. It's actually yours to take responsibility for. So all of this comes down to that separation and connection. How do I stay connected to people while also understanding what's mine is mine and what's theirs is theirs?
So here are five questions that you might ask yourself. Maybe you ask a loved one or a trusted advisor to reflect on these five parenting patterns, if you suspect that they may have an impact on you today. These are some questions to think about and notice and wonder about and get curious about, because it will help you begin to frame your experience so that you can take brave steps toward healing.
Regarding unpredictability, how do I react when someone I care about is emotionally volatile or inconsistent? Do I find myself constantly trying to manage their feelings or walking on eggshells? If you notice that inside of you, when someone else is emotionally volatile or inconsistent, it triggers a part of you that's like, oh, I need to do something to fix that.
I need to change something about myself to fix their feelings. That's a cue that there's a wound there that you could begin to heal. The truth is, if someone else is emotionally volatile, that's their responsibility to work through that. It's your responsibility to be aware, to notice what happens inside of you, to take responsibility for yourself in that moment. It's not your responsibility to try to fix their emotions.
Number two, as it relates to parentification, do I feel responsible for taking care of others' emotional needs before my own in my adult relationships? Do I struggle to ask for help or set boundaries because I'm so used to always prioritizing others? Notice if that's true. My default is to immediately take care of them, immediately go to their needs, whether it's your friends, whether it's your spouse, whether it's your own parents.
I've got to take care of them. I've got to be the bigger person. I've got to do what they need, versus sitting with the sometimes uncomfortable feeling of, I wonder what I need in this situation for myself or from another person. And that may be beginning to notice the effects of that parentification in your own adult life.
And then number three, when it comes to criticism, how do I respond to feedback or criticism from others? Do I immediately internalize it? Criticize myself or feel like I need to perfect myself to avoid being judged? In other words, if I notice criticism around me or even any healthy feedback, do I immediately assume I'm at fault?
I must've gotten it wrong. I've got to do better. And if so, that's something to notice. What if instead I could take a deep breath and wonder, is it true? Is that criticism even about me? Or is it more about this other person? It's possible this has nothing to do with me. It's possible I haven't done anything wrong. You can begin to build up that new muscle.
Number four, control. Do I find it difficult to make decisions without seeking approval or validation from others? Am I able to pursue my own interests or do I feel pressure to live up to the expectations of others? And notice, if I were to vote a certain way, if I were to attend a certain church, if I were to wear a certain article of clothing as an adult, is there sort of this internal backlash?
Notice that. Begin to pay attention. What if I could challenge myself to take some small steps toward autonomy, toward doing some things that I like to do, even though they're different from what I was taught was okay? You might start with some low hanging fruit. It might start with something you wear, a food that you eat that's a little bit different from what you were allowed as a child.
And then number five, rescuing. When facing challenges, do I tend to rely on others to bail me out, to fix things for me? Or do I feel empowered to tackle problems on my own? How comfortable am I with allowing others to fail and learn from their mistakes? How often am I wanting to swoop in and rescue others?
That might be another way this shows up. Notice that and maybe ask for feedback again from a trusted advisor because you're beginning to identify patterns. There's a reason you're this way. Likely this goes all the way back to childhood. So these questions should help you identify how these early patterns might still be affecting your adult life and your relationships.
I want you to remember this above all else: healing starts with you. No matter what happened in your past, you have the power to begin to change some of these patterns. You can do this inside of you.
It starts with beginning to notice and name some of these patterns and beginning to entertain the thought, what if it could be different? What if there was another way? You will begin to unlock the natural God-given healing inside of your soul. Because no matter what happened to you in the past, your body is designed with a bent toward healing.
Invite God's spirit into that process and ask God to begin to nudge you when one of those patterns is showing up in your life. And I promise you, you will begin to see numerous opportunities and numerous occasions to make a tiny change, one brave step at a time.
Did you know that by adulthood, most people have experienced some form of sexual wounding?
Today’s conversation with Sam Jolman, therapist and author of the new book, "The Sex Talk You Never Got," is one of my absolute all-time favorites. Why? It truly surprised me.
It’s so rare to find a nuanced conversation about sex—especially in a world where we’re constantly tugged between a reductive view of “purity” and an equally reductive sense of “permissiveness.” This conversation is packed with absolute gems—there’s depth, wisdom, and healing in every moment that’s relevant to all of us, no matter our stories.
Here’s what we dive into:
- How to establish safety, consent, and trust in intimate relationships
- An eye-opening statistic from Harvard about what kids are really longing for when it comes to parenting and sex
- How to have a truly meaningful “sex talk” with your kids
- What God actually desires from us when it comes to sex (& it's not just "purity")
- Sam's advice for those who’ve experienced sexual wounding or brokenness and want to begin the healing process
Resources:
- The Sex Talk You Never Got: Reclaiming the Heart of Masculine Sexuality by Sam Jolman, LPC
- samjolman.substack.com
- samjolman.com
If you liked this, you’ll love:
- Episode 125: Recovering From Purity Culture: Dismantle the Myths, Reject Shame-Based Sexuality, and Move Forward in Your Faith with Dr. Camden Morgante
Thanks to our sponsors:
- Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
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Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author. While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Transcript:
Alison Cook: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I am so glad you're here this week for the second part of our two part series on healthy sexuality. Last week, we took a deep dive into purity culture, and we explored the myths and some of the shame-based messaging so many of us internalized about sex.
Today, we're shifting our focus to looking at how we can heal from sexual trauma, change destructive patterns in our relationships, and how we can begin to have healthier, more honest conversations, especially with our kids about sex and sexuality. So for this conversation, I am thrilled to welcome therapist Sam Jolman to the show.
Sam is a licensed professional counselor with over 20 years of experience working with individuals and couples on issues related to trauma, relationships, and emotional health. He's the author of a brand new book called The Sex Talk You Never Got: Reclaiming the Heart of Masculine Sexuality. It's a beautiful book that really honors the sacred nature of sex and sexuality while simultaneously demystifying it in a way that is so necessary for this culture that we live in, where we need to be having healthy conversations about sex.
Sam has a unique ability to blend clinical insight with deep compassion, and he's creating a space for all people to heal and grow in a way that integrates the mind, the body, and the spirit. He has specialized in working with both men and women on healing from sexual trauma, addressing dysfunctional patterns in relationships, and guiding parents on how to approach these sensitive topics with their children.
In today's conversation, we'll be talking about how we can move forward out of the ruins of sexual trauma and sexual wounding and move forward on a path of healing. We'll discuss how to create healthier patterns of intimacy in our lives. Sam offers some really important and valuable insight on how to talk with your kids about sex in ways that honor their vulnerability, but that also prepares them for the complexities of life, giving them the tools they need to develop a healthy, realistic, grounded understanding of sex.
So whether you've personally experienced sexual trauma or wounding, or whether you're working through issues in your relationship or simply want to look for better ways to have healthy conversations with your kids about sex, this episode is for everyone.
Sam Jolman is a trauma therapist with over 20 years of experience specializing in men's issues and sexual trauma recovery. He received his Master's in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and was further trained in narrative-focused trauma care through the Allender Center at the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology.
Sam lives in Colorado with his wife and three sons. He's the author of the brand new book, The Sex Talk You Never Got: Reclaiming the Heart of Masculine Sexuality. This is such a rich and beautiful conversation with Sam about this tender topic. While Sam's new book is specifically written for men, this conversation is for everyone. Please enjoy my conversation with therapist Sam Jolman.
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Alison Cook: I'm thrilled to have you on the podcast, Sam. Thank you so much for joining us and really speaking into what is such an important topic for so many of us. Thank you for being here.
Sam: Alison, thank you for having me on and thank you for being willing and open to this important conversation.
Alison Cook: Yeah, it is. As I was preparing for this conversation, I bumped up against some of the parts of me that were raised in what we now talk about as purity culture. I didn't understand what that was at the time, and I was having to unpack some of my own internal resistances, even though as a therapist and a clinician and a parent, I've worked through so much of that.
I appreciate your willingness to walk us through this. You're a therapist who specializes primarily in men's issues and in marriage counseling. Is that right?
Sam: Yup. Men's issues, marriage counseling, and actually working with sexual trauma as well along with that.
Alison Cook: How did you find your way into that area of specialty?
Sam: I started, as probably most of us as therapists start, as a 19 year old going into my own counseling, and feeling what felt to me like magic. I sat with a really kind and skilled therapist who had a way of drawing me into my heart. I was managing depression at the time, and it felt pretty magical.
Like wow. What did you do? How did I end up in tears, and why are we talking about this, which feels unrelated to this? Yet here we are. There was the magic of it. Then there was a prayer there, where I thought God, if I could do this, if I could offer this to others, that would be amazing.
So it started there. My own story, again, of entering into my own story of sexual formation and understanding parts of it that were deeper–a lot of times sexuality, particularly from purity culture, there's a lot of conversation about behaving. Behave well. There's not a lot of conversation in the church about your story, and the impact of your story on your sexuality.
The experience you describe, try writing a book on sexuality, and that will certainly let you know where you still hold sexual shame. In writing this book I had to go back and do my own counseling and do some of my own EMDR to really keep doing layers of work here, because sexuality, there are certain things you can talk about in your head, maybe math or rock strata. I don't know.
But sexuality, you can't not be in your body and in your story. Your felt experience of sexuality when you talk about it is that vulnerable and close to us. It's that sacred.
Alison Cook: It's such a good point. It's really hard to have an abstract conversation about it. Maybe that's what purity culture was trying to do, is make it very abstract and disembodied. But you used a phrase that I want to tease out–sexual formation. I love that. We think about spiritual formation.
We think about the whole person, emotional health, forming our emotional lives, forming our spiritual lives. Tell me a little bit about what that means to you, that idea of sexual formation? Because it's a real thread throughout the book. You're really wanting us not to see it as the title of “the sex talk you never had”.
It's not a one and done. It's not a, “Okay, here's what it is. Here's the basics”. It's a whole process of becoming a whole person. So talk to me a little bit about what you mean by that.
Sam: Yeah. We do have this misnomer or this false idea that sexuality runs itself. Once you've got it explained, the birds and the bees, the mechanics, it's gonna do its thing. It creates, as I say in the book, an under-nurtured part of us. It's probably the place we've had the least meaningful conversations in our lives.
I would say even, particularly for men, the banter of locker room talk, as we say, or sex jokes, shows this idea of again, it's meant to work. The stats that I've read say 85 percent of couples will experience, even in the mechanics, even in the physicality of bodies, will experience some sort of sexual dysfunction at some point in their marriage.
85 percent saying the mechanics don't work. But along with that, I'm borrowing this line from Esther Perel, another writer on sexuality who says, there's the mechanics of sex, but then there's the poetics of sex. Which is this beautiful line that captures the desire side of things and the story that's around sexuality.
So the sex talk should also be the romance talk. One of my sons who is coming of age asked me, dad, how do you ask a girl out?
Alison Cook: Yes, that's right. Yeah.
Sam: There's a little moment of formation there, of buddy, here's how you might have a conversation like that.
Alison Cook: It's analogous to how we think about marriage. All right, you get married, you're done, go on and have a healthy relationship for the next 50 years. Are you kidding me? The marriage ceremony is a party that is the mark of a journey of growth and healing and work and thinking about things and processing things and changing and growing and this whole process that's going to last your whole lifetime.
It's the same with sexuality. It's a whole process that starts with, “How do I like a girl? What do I do? How do I talk to her?”
Sam: Yeah. And, as you're saying so well, you have to learn the dance of desire in a marriage. How do you incorporate this part? As I say in the book, sex, I believe, in its essence, is a form of play. It is a place our love plays. It's not the only place, it is. In fact, you need other places of play in marriage, like taking up dance or even card games.
My wife and I like reading a book together and talking about it. That can be a form of playful conversation. Or my wife and I did couples yoga for Valentine's Day a couple of years ago, and that was playful. It was a different way of learning how to be with each other and learn something other than task mode that we're so often in.
You’re business partners and co-parents and homeowners together, but sex is meant to be this other place that you play. And that takes learning. How do you like to play in here? What is your cadence of desire? What do you like and not? What brings you pleasure and not? That's a lot to learn.
Alison Cook: It is. It's a whole lifetime. It's a whole lifetime to learn and understand and grow and honor. I love the metaphor of the dance. You start out the book, Sam, with these stories. I think there's three stories where these characters, kids, are essentially giving these bids to their parents in some small way.
Gottman talks about how in couples, we give bids to our partner. That was so fascinating to me when I read about Gottman, because we do it all the time. “Oh look, I washed the dishes” is a bid for “Oh, thank you so much for washing the dishes” or “Oh, look at that beautiful bird” is a bid for “You're interested in that bird”.
So I looked at these stories as these kids giving subtle bids that they want to talk about this and they don't know how to talk about it. They're terrified to talk about it. In each of the stories, the parent, doing the best they can, either completely ignores it, shuts it down, or reveals their own shame and awkwardness about it.
In the stories that you're sharing, these kids aren’t getting what they really need, which is someone to come alongside them and say, let's talk about this. What are you really asking here? it was so profound to me because I thought, gosh, for so many of us who didn't get parented through that, we're demonstrating our own awkwardness in those moments.
We don't know that this is first of all, a bid from my child saying “I need to talk about this”. So I thought that was so powerful to even catch a glimpse through your eyes of this happening. We, as the parents, are responsible to watch for these bids and really engage with our kids.
Then you coupled that with some research from Harvard that talked about how 70 percent of young adults are saying they want more conversations with their parents about sexuality, about sex and romance. That was such a powerful way to open the book.
I'm curious at a broad brush stroke level, what are some ways that we as parents can be watching for? One, what is the work we need to do so that we're ready and prepared for those conversations? Two, what are some of the things we need to be watching out for to really help our young boys and our young girls so that we can be nurturing them into the fullness of this sexual formation?
Sam: Great questions. Yes. I love your language of bids, the bids for connection. You're right. Those are moments where they're asking for attachment. Lean in, read my face, read my curiosity, ask me the next question. I don't even know what I don't know, but stay with me. You're right.
I hadn't thought about it that way, but that really is the sense of these moments of being under-nurtured because of being missed. I would say at some level, again, you cannot talk about sexuality outside of your body. It is one of those topics that will bring you into your body and into your own felt experience.
First and foremost, before anything that you say or do with your children in terms of educating them, I think the most important thing you can do is address your own places of shame. Address your own sexual shame. Where does it haunt you? Where does it grip you? Because it will.
Some of those stories, one of them in particular, is a story of a father who dropped his face. He looked away from his son and broke eye contact. All of them at some level are the removal of the face, which is the universal sign of shame. We drop our face. We break our eye contact when we feel shame. Most likely these are not stories of terrible parents.
They're stories of parents with their own shame and feeling their own shutdown inside. Oh, it's awkward to talk about sex. It's vulnerable. What if I screw it up? Especially if you have your own sexual shame there, it will cause you to break contact or shut down. So please begin to be curious about your own story.
Where has shame held you? What are those stories? Literally get out a pad of paper and make a bullet point list of what are the 10 stories that shaped you? What's your sexual formation? My father in law very vulnerably said to me when I was telling him about this book, I didn't give my son a talk and I didn't get one. In other words, there's this generational neglect.
Sitting down and saying, what did shape you? What took the place of healthy conversation? That would be number one, and then how do you begin to approach your children? First of all, the pressure's off. It is not one talk. It is as one writer said, a hundred or a couple hundred one-minute conversations. You don't have to do the hour long, diagrammed lecture where you make sure you cover everything.
In fact, your children would not be able to bear that much at one time. It is vulnerable, even for them, even though they're hungry. Try to read them and read their hunger. Where are they asking questions? Answer their questions and go as far as it feels like their curiosity has been satiated. That they're okay. They're good.
Alison Cook: What you're saying. It's a series of moments of being very attuned to the moment. Even with your son, “how do I ask a girl out” is a moment to engage. Oh, tell me about that. What's the girl like, how are you feeling about her? What are you thinking? Not jumping ahead of where they are, but really staying with them.
I love what you're saying. If we're okay, if we've done our own work and we're okay, it's not that we have to have all the right answers or the right formulas. We're being with them. They'll come to us. They'll come to us and then we'll get to be with them on that journey.
You said something I want to ask you about that I thought was really powerful. You said, if no one has talked to you, where did you get that information? My mind went, oh wow, you're right. We're getting shaped from somewhere. Where are we getting shaped if we're not talking about it in our homes with our parents?
Sam: Yeah. Your sexuality doesn't sit on a shelf, waiting until you bring it out and talk about it or get the formation. It is living your story right with you. It is in your body. It is a part of you. Nowadays, children are going to Google, their peers, pornography. I sat with a couple and they've given me permission to share this–their 14 year old son came to them scared.
Because he had discovered internet pornography, but through this really innocent question, he was hearing some friends at school talk about being interested in girls. He thought to himself, I don't know how to kiss a girl. Again, another part of the sex talk. He went to Google and typed in, how do you kiss a girl?
Can you hear the innocent lover heart of this young man at 14? Again, sadly, what showed was pornography. Google is not a safe place to get your sex education. Unless you're very careful, obviously. So he fell headlong into this journey, this battle with pornography. Thankfully, he came to his parents and they were very open to him, and did not shame him.
They entered into that space with him to get him help and then started unwinding some of what he had learned there. Sadly, there are many of us that have had our sexuality awakened in sexual harm, which is a very tragic thing to recognize, but there are stats saying that women who experience sexual abuse begin menstruation earlier.
In other words, there's this sense that something in their body is that impacted by sexual abuse. It awakens something. What a heavy thing to have your sexuality awakened in the context of harm.
That is very tender work, but beginning to recognize that there wasn't the story of innocence and romance and love. There was manipulation and harm. So that's a place to go, because the realm of evil would love for you to believe that your abuse is your fault. Even your curiosity that led you to pornography, you think that's his fault. Something's twisted or perverted about him. But oh my goodness, it was your innocence that led you there.
And so being able to recover that sense of innocence for your own sexuality. Those are the stories that shape us.
Alison Cook: Yeah. Again, as parents, being really aware and attuned in a culture where there are so many messages. And then in our faith communities, you talk in the book about how both culture and church have shaped our sexuality for bad and for good. Can you speak a little bit about that side of it?
Sam: Again, there's obviously purity culture. We could talk for hours about that. But generally speaking, that sense of, hey, here's the basic anatomy and then quickly a rush to, but don't feel this. Don't do anything. There's no real exploration. There's this shutdown approach. There's not really a blessing of, this is actually really good.
Your body was made for pleasure. Isn't that cool, what that says about God and our design? There's not the questions about the cultural things being brought up, so that's the sense of shut it down that creates this animosity with your own body.
Alison Cook: Yeah.
Sam: Because then when you begin to feel arousal, which is not the same as lust, and you experience being awakened in your own sexuality, you have that sense of, this must be wrong. It creates this animosity or even suspicion of your own body. You end up repenting of a body rather than repenting of the flesh.
Alison Cook: That’s a good word. Yeah, you're repenting for a bodily mechanism that God designed you to have.
Sam: Yeah, so obviously that's the church. Outside of the church, a lot could be said as well, but as I say in the book, there's not really a sense of sacredness or awe. I would say it is a false blessing. Wow, I'm blessed to do what I want. That permissiveness is not integrating sexuality with love. Again, this is person to person, but that general sense of permissiveness is not a blessing. It’s not nurturing.
Alison Cook: Yeah. I hear what you're saying. There's a ditch on both sides of the road. In my own journey, I remember thinking, oh at least in the secular culture, I can get the information that I need and not the shame and not the stigma. Yet also there's a reductive component to it. And then the other side shut it down. It's like a switch you can flip and you flip it at one point in life and then you're good to go.
In your book, you're talking to men, but I think it's true for all of us: at the base, at the core, you're a lover. We're lovers. This is a beautiful part of our God-given design. You then go into this idea that God most wants your awe, not your purity. Wow. God most wants your awe, which gets at what you're saying. There's something very deep here, but it's bigger and deeper, far richer and far more beautiful than purity. Talk to us a little bit about that.
Sam: Yeah, so if purity isn't the goal, as I'm obviously saying, it can be harmful as a message in itself. Obviously, there's a way in which we're called to purity, but not as the goal. What then is it? What is this vision? The best definition I read was, it's in the upper reaches of pleasure on the edge of fear.
We don't often associate fear next to pleasure as emotions, but it's something that you're both afraid of, but drawn to. I think of asking my wife out for the first time. That was definitely a moment where I felt fear, but also an incredible amount of draw to my wife. Right there, there was a moment of awe. The word I would use there is, there's a reverence.
You think of a beautiful waterfall. It is thundering and powerful, and yet it is moving. What is that capacity to receive people in the same way? There's a researcher, Dacher Keltner, who thought, what moves us most with awe would be nature or even religious experience. He said, we are most moved by other human beings in what he would call moral beauty.
Living good stories moves us the most. So I'm inviting this fuller sense of beauty to take in the full person. We sometimes have such an emaciated view of human beauty. We think it's this very strict set of standards for what's attractive. I really believe God made every single person full of his glory. We are all beautiful.
Alison Cook: Yeah, I agree. The human spirit, the human soul, the human body, is gorgeous in all of its manifestations. And worthy of awe. I love that. I love what you're saying. That idea of awe as this reverence, respect, and wonder–we have lost so much of that. As you're saying that, my mind is popping in every direction. We've lost that wonder at the goodness and beauty, as you're saying of our human creation.
Sam: Yeah, and we have this little glimpse in the Olympics. We're in the Olympic season as we're recording, and we don't necessarily use this language, but it is all about human awe. The whole point is to watch people pushing the edges of what is possible in the human body and doing it so gracefully.
But also the stories of these athletes and what they've overcome. We're so drawn to that. Again, the word I would use there is awe.
Alison Cook: Yeah that's really powerful. And then to think about that as it relates to desire and honoring sexual desire. That's a powerful reframe. To bring in my name, frame, brave framework, we're naming what it's not, and then reframing it something much bigger.
When you were defining awe, you said something about, it's something we're drawn to, but also fearful of in that holy, healthy way. I think about God, where there's that reverence, and I also was thinking, as you said that, of when there's been abuse or trauma, it goes awry. Because there's the fear, there's the draw to something that you fear, that gets really contaminated and harmed.
Sam: Right. That is so well said. Again, it is such tender ground to even bring fear and sex together. How could you mix those that and that ever be good? Because we think of safety. Again, I'm borrowing a little bit from even things that Andy Colbert wrote on play.
Play is this mixed state in the body. Play is one of the good ones where you have both parasympathetic soothing, but you also have sympathetic uprising. You're near fight or flight, but you're also in activation. So it's on this edge of fear. Again, I'm saying edge. If you are in terror, and again, even in the research on awe, they would say too much terror shuts you down and you cannot experience pleasure.
But think about the vulnerability of disrobing. Again, I've been married 21 years and in the vulnerability of unveiling my body to my wife, there's still a sense of, okay, here I am. It's this openness and intimacy.
Alison Cook: Again, this is where we have to do our own work. It reminds me of what you're saying, that fine line of play and vulnerability. I had a conversation with Beth McCord, she's an Enneagram coach on the podcast, and she was talking about watching her kids and her husband play wrangle.
It was very activating to her because she'd been bullied, and it took her a long time to be able to sit with them and even ask them, are you guys okay with this? They'd say, we love it. We're having fun. We're right on that edge, kind of what you're saying. But for her, that felt dangerous and scary because of her background. It's a little bit of a different context, but it reminds me of that line of awe and wonder and vulnerability.
Learning how to ride a bike is exhilarating and also terrifying and that is healthy. I'm thinking of the listener, and man, I have tears in my eyes. I want that for you. I want that for you. Also, it could take a minute to really retrain your system to recognize the healthy version of that. And that's okay.
Sam: Again, it can only happen in a context where you feel the empowerment to say no. That you can say stop.
Alison Cook: Or to say, this might even be healthy, but I'm not comfortable with it. To have the other person honor that and say, that's ok. Because that's what creates safety.
Sam: That's such a good example. Little children know this. They know that they need to honor consent. Do you want to play? It's an invitation of consent. It's such a vulnerable risk. I want to play, but do you, and that they know when somebody says, I don't, don't do that, I don't like that.
They have more freedom to vocalize when something's too much or I didn't like that. That empowerment is what you need to be able to take some of these steps towards risking that vulnerability.
Alison Cook: Yeah, that's good. That's really a beautiful picture. I love that picture. There's a lot of nuance to it. That's the hope. We want that. We want that experience our whole lives. All right, let's go for a bike ride, and wherever we are on that journey is the place at which we have to start.
And then as we do that work, we're going to help our kids retain that innocence as they get to learn, and sometimes they'll fumble and fall, but we're going to be there for them so that they're not alone. I love that. That's really beautiful.
Sam: I was remembering a story of when I taught my wife how to mountain bike. We live in Colorado and she wanted me to teach her. There was this moment, and it's still a significant rupture moment for us and our marriage, where I took her on this bike ride and I'm trying to coach her and she's trying to figure it out.
We had a bit of a fight. I pulled ahead on the trail. And she followed me. I didn't realize she was following me on this technical section and she crashed her bike. I ran up to help her and we got her cared for. But there was this rupture of, I trusted you and you took me too far. It was past what I could handle on this bike ride, and it really became this thing we had to work through in terms of her trust in me taking her into play.
This might sound strange, but that actually impacted our intimacy, our sex life as well, of, can I trust your play? Can I trust your passion, Sam? It makes sense now. Of course those two are connected. If I couldn't trust you in this play, can I trust you over here in this sexual play? There are those moments, not your past story, but maybe even the stories in your marriage of, you didn't play well with me here. How can I trust you here?
Alison Cook: Yeah. I love this. Thank you so much for what you're naming. What would you say to the listener? First of all, I would say read the book. There's so much in it that is practical. You've done such a beautiful job painting a beautiful picture, giving us a different vision, and then giving us practical steps and ways to approach ourselves and our kids.
What would you say to the listener, as we're winding down, who is listening going, oh my gosh, the suitcase is so full of shame. There's so much there. Where do I start? I don't even know where to start with my kid, let alone with myself. What would you say to that listener?
Sam: I've been amazed, when I sit down with victims of sexual harm, that one of the things that seems to make them most tender in the conversation is, they'll use the language of, I felt like my innocence was taken. Or I felt like my innocence was stolen in some way.
They might be able to grapple with the pain. They understand that this is painful. I've got to work through it. But there's such hopelessness and devastation around it. I've seen too much. I've suffered too much. How in the world can I be made innocent again?
You're talking about playfulness and wonder. Good. But yeah that's not gonna happen. What I would want you to hear is that your innocence is not lost. It is not lost to what's happened to you. It's not lost to what you've done. In fact, I would say, God desires to help you recover that innocence.
That is always the profound joy in walking with victims of traumas, watching that innocence as they brave the pain, come back to them along with the playful parts of them and the parts that can receive pleasure again and risk that and wonder and awe. So I would invite you to think of that young self, that place of innocence. She is not gone. He is not gone. You can get that part of you back.
Alison Cook: That is so beautiful. This is from someone, for those of you listening, who has worked in the trenches with this for 20 years. So you've seen some things and for you to be able to give us that is a beautiful statement of hope. You're not saying that idly. You've seen it.
So I want everyone to hear that deeply. It’s a Holy Spirit infused message for you–this is what God wants for each and every one of us. Sometimes the journey is longer than others to healing, and you start where you are. I love what you're saying. It's such a worthwhile endeavor and you're worthy of it.
Thank you so much. Sam, tell us where people can find you, more about your work, and resources to continue on this journey that you're taking us on.
Sam: Yeah. Thank you, Alison. I would love for you to read the book wherever you buy your books. I'm also a writer on Substack, so you can find me at samjolman.substack.com or my website, samjolman.com, where you can still get some order bonuses for buying the book and find out more about me there.
Alison Cook: That's great. It's brave work you're doing. Thank you for doing it. Thanks for being here.
Sam: Thanks for having the conversation with me.
Today's episode is a fascinating conversation about the phenomenon of "purity culture." You've heard the phrase, but my guest today, licensed therapist and purity culture expert, Dr. Camden Morgante, is here to explain exactly what it was and how it created a culture of shame, fear, and coercion around sex, especially for women.
We explore the damaging myths purity culture perpetuated and the ways it continues to affect women and married couples, especially around issues of intimacy and self-worth. Dr. Camden shares essential insights on how to heal from these harmful messages and move forward in faith, while also offering practical advice for anyone struggling with shame-based sexuality.
Key Takeaways:
- What purity culture is and its lasting impact on Millennials and Gen X
- The 5 damaging myths, including the "gatekeeper," "damaged goods," & "flipped switch" myths
- The most important strategy for couples dealing with disappointment around sex
- The real meaning of intimacy beyond physical connection
- Dr. Camden’s practical advice for overcoming shame and reclaiming your faith
Resources:
- Recovering from Purity Culture: Dismantle the Myths, Reject Shame-Based Sexuality, and Move Forward in Your Faith by Dr. Camden Morgante
- The Best of You by Dr. Alison Cook
- drcamden.com
If you liked this, you’ll love:
- Episode 48: Loving Your Body as a Spiritual Practice, Why the Flesh Isn’t the Body, and 3 Heresies We Kind of Believe
Thanks to our sponsors:
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Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author. While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Transcript:
Alison Cook: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I am so glad you're here this week. I'm so glad to be here with you. Many of you get my weekly email or you follow me on socials, and you know we've had a really rough couple of weeks here in Wyoming with some pretty intense wildfires.
So we have really appreciated your prayers for that. And I'm also mindful of all of you, especially in the Southeast, who are still reeling from the effects of both Hurricane Helene and Hurricane Milton. These are really devastating times. I'm so grateful for so many of you out there shining your light so brightly, even when the world can feel so dark, scary, and overwhelming.
Your courage, your hope, your prayers, your incredible acts of kindness, no matter how tiny, matter. They matter to God, they matter to the other people in your life, and they matter to the parts of your soul who need to see us fighting for the goodness and the beauty and the dignity of every human life and every part of God's creation. My prayers are with you as we continue to hold forth faith and hope and light in this world
Today we're diving into the first of a two-part series on the topic of sexuality. This is such an important topic. It's a topic I've been wanting to bring to the podcast, but I wanted to find the right experts to talk with us about such a nuanced topic, such a tender topic, a topic that is so deeply vulnerable for so many of us.
So many of us have been hurt in this area. So many of us are struggling in this area. So many of us are struggling to figure out how to have healthy conversations about sex and sexuality in our world, where there are so many toxic messages coming at us from every single angle, including some messages from within our own faith communities.
Here's the thing–in order to move forward into a healthier understanding of this beautiful gift of sexuality that God has given us to enjoy, sometimes we have to first look back and untangle the knots of the toxic messages we've received. That's where we're going to start in this series with today's episode.
Today's guest is a therapist and an expert, especially on the phenomena of purity culture, that so many of us grew up a part of. And she's here to help name the myths and toxic messages that so many of us internalized as millennials or Gen Xers, especially within the context of church culture.
Purity culture was so much more than a message about abstinence and purity. It actually shaped how we viewed ourselves, our relationships, and our sense of worth. And the problem, as you'll hear from my guest today, was that sex wasn't discussed in a way that allowed us to understand the nuances and the complexity and embrace our sexuality as a natural, integral part of how God designed us.
Many of us as a result, experienced fear, shame, and disconnection from our bodies in ways that don't disappear with adulthood or even in the context of marriage. Many people are still grappling with the effects of not really being brought into the fullness of a healthy sexuality, and it can feel embarrassing or even shameful to ask questions about sex, even years into healthy marriages.
So what does it look like to reclaim a healthy, holistic view of sexuality? And how do we unlearn the shame and embrace both our faith and our sexuality in a way that's life-giving? To help us navigate these questions, I am honored to welcome Dr. Camden Morgante to the show.
Dr. Morgante is a licensed clinical psychologist and coach who specializes in helping people recover from the effects of purity culture. She's passionate about guiding individuals through the process of identifying harmful beliefs around sexuality and helping them build a healthier, more integrated understanding of sex. One that aligns both with their faith and their personal growth.
Dr. Morgante's personal experience as a millennial who grew up within the context of purity culture combined with her professional expertise makes her uniquely qualified to guide us through this topic. She's been featured in numerous publications and podcasts where she speaks on the intersection of faith, sexuality, and mental health.
Her compassionate, nuanced, thoughtful approach to the conversation acknowledges both some well-meaning intentions behind purity culture and the real harm it's caused. Dr. Morgante's work is grounded in the belief that sexuality is a core part of who we are as human beings and that God created us to embrace this part of ourselves fully and without shame.
She has a brand new book out this week. It's called Recovering from Purity Culture: Dismantle the Myths, Reject Shame-Based Sexuality, and Move Forward in Your Faith. It's such an incredibly rich and empowering deep dive into the nuances of how we think about sexuality. I am so thrilled to bring you my conversation today with Dr. Camden Morgante.
***
Hi, Dr. Camden. I am so thrilled to have you here today on the podcast. We've been following each other online for a little while and it's really fun to have this conversation with you about this new book you have coming out.
Dr. Camden: Yes. Thank you, Dr. Alison. I'm thrilled to be here and to see you again and connect with you again.
Alison Cook: You were so kind to do an Instagram live with me, I think it was about The Best of You. Is that right? Yeah. You've been great. I think it was a DM you sent me that said, it is so refreshing to see people talking about these topics who are still Christian. I see you as well, really fighting for your faith, even as you're trying to disentangle from some of the toxic messages that so many of us have gotten.
To that point, you've got this new book coming out all about purity culture. We've seen that phrase thrown around, but you're really an expert on it. You're a psychologist. You've studied this. Talk to us a little bit today as we're getting started. What is this thing, purity culture? We're naming something, and it's important to name things accurately. So we've got this name–purity culture. What do we mean by that? What are we actually trying to identify in that term?
Dr. Camden: Yeah. There's different ways people define it, but the way I define it in my book and in my work is that it was a largely evangelical movement that peaked in the 1990s to 2000s that attempted to persuade young people especially to avoid premarital sex using shame and fear as tools of control and coercion.
So I distinguish between the belief in waiting until marriage for sex, which I call a traditional Christian sexual ethic, I distinguish between that and purity culture. To me, those are two different things. What really separates those is that purity culture added the shame and fear and control.
It wasn't really a thoughtful choice that people could make, to wait for marriage to have sex. It was really coerced out of them with shame. And that's the distinction I make. Not many other books on purity culture make that same distinction.
Alison Cook: Yeah, I really appreciated that about your book. There's a lot of nuance in it. We're talking about a movement, and it's less about what was taught, although some folks might completely disagree with everything that they were taught, but I heard you saying in your book, a lot of it is about how it was taught–using coercion and fear. Tell me a little bit more about that.
Dr. Camden: Yeah, it was really the myths, the false promises and the messages that were used to try to persuade young people that has caused so much harm. Because again, it's different from holding that belief and holding that value for yourself.
It's about offering these false promises of what you'll get if you believe. It's about what I call “the myths of purity culture” that didn't come from the Bible, but yet were taught to us as if they were biblical truth. It peaked in the 1990s to 2000s, because that's really when millennials like myself were going through high school sex ed and youth group at church, and reading these books that were geared towards especially teen girls and purity and modesty and things like that.
The true love waits movement. And that's also why it's a culture and not a belief; a culture involves things like purity rings, making a “true love waits” pledge. Some people went to rallies, some people had purity balls. It's like this whole culture of books and speakers and conferences and sermons solely focused on this topic.
That's what it was built around. Our faith became entirely built on this concept of purity.
Alison Cook: Interesting. Okay. I'm Gen X, more raised in the eighties, college in the nineties. So it's really interesting to hear you make that distinction because I definitely had some of that. I remember being at a Christian conference in ‘88 and we all had to stand up and take the pledge to wait until we were married.
But I will say, a lot of that stuff you're describing, the books that started to come out around it, the movements, the culture, I think the era was a little bit more local. So there might be some slight differences, but definitely the seeds of it, I caught early on. I'll have conversations with my friends about, gosh, wouldn't it have been nice if we'd had some conversations about a whole-being sexuality?
Not “wait until you're married” and then you're expected (and you use this word in the book) to flip the switch. That's one of the myths.
Dr. Camden: Yeah, I would say my Gen X clients usually got these messages either later in high school or in college. Maybe from a college ministry or around the time that I Kissed Dating Goodbye was released. I think that was like ‘93 or so. So if they're in college around that time, it may have informed their choices to get married or who they married.
But the reason why I say it affected millennials specifically, is because abstinence-only sex ed was also a part of the public school curriculum when we were growing up. And we got it not in religious settings, but also in public school.
Also, it happened during more of those formative years, like the middle school and early high school years for us. It really shaped our understanding of our bodies and of sexuality and even of relationships in a different way than I see with Gen X or even Gen Z coming up, because they got some of it too.
Alison Cook: It hasn't been fantastic for a long time. And yes, it affects different generations differently. That makes sense to me. Tell me a little bit about in your practice, how do you see the residual effects on particularly women, but also on couples, on folks who not only missed a whole gap in their human development, but also got some of these toxic messages around sex.
And again, I want to be clear. We're not necessarily saying the toxic messages have to do with premarital abstinence. You talk about that in the book. It’s the way that was pushed, the way it was talked about. So how do you see the residual harm of some of those methods?
Dr. Camden: I'm a licensed psychologist, so I have a private practice where I see women and couples in my therapy practice. And then I also do coaching online, specifically for purity culture recovery. I see couples all over the country and women for that. And the ways that I see it mainly manifesting is causing problems in one's faith, sexuality, and relationships.
Those big three key areas. It causes a lot of faith struggles for a lot of people, faith doubts, periods of disillusionment, or feeling distrusting or distant from God. It causes problems in sexuality, and we can get into the specifics, but sexual pain, low sexual pleasure, low desire, difficulty connecting with their spouse once they're married, and flipping the switch.
And then problems in relationships, and that can be with others, like in a marriage, because there were very limited roles and stereotypes that purity culture used that can limit the ways that husband and wife interact in marriage. Also your relationship to yourself, your own mental health, your body image, and shame about your body and your sexuality. Those are the three main areas I see the effects showing up.
Alison Cook: Why do you think that is? What are some of these messages that are subtle and that people might not even realize? They've internalized these shaming messages. When you're doing work with folks, what are you trying to get to the root of?
Dr. Camden: Yeah, I'm trying to get to the root of what are your beliefs and where did those come from? And if you can identify who it was that taught you this or what book you read it in, where did it come from? That can help them start to disentangle it a little bit to see that this wasn't biblical. There were parts of it that were biblical, but a lot of it came from humans who are fallible.
We had good intentions for the most part. These people that taught us purity culture had good intentions, but there were a lot of unanticipated consequences that didn't show up until 10 or 20 years later that we couldn't have expected. So I'm trying to get to the root of that and see, yeah, your faith, your sexuality, and your relationships got so entangled with this and how do we find a healthy path forward?
Alison Cook: This gets to some of those myths you talk about. What are some of those myths that people have internalized that really wreak havoc on a healthy sexual and spiritual identity?
Dr. Camden: Yeah, you mentioned the flip switch myth, so I can start with that one. This idea that as soon as you get married, you flip a switch and sex is going to be instantly pleasurable and easy, only if you wait for it…that really affects people's sexuality because they realize sex takes a lot more education than we were ever given.
It takes communication, it takes teamwork, it takes a compromise. There's a lot that goes into it. But it is not an overnight success. It takes work like any other skill in marriage. And it also affects people's faith because they were given this false promise and told that God promised them this.
So then when it doesn't happen, I see people have a lot of disappointment and that distrust in God, like, why did I wait, if this is what I'm getting? Where's my reward? And that's also very connected with the fairytale myth, which is if you wait, then you'll have a fairytale marriage. You'll find your spouse.
And for many people who are single much longer than they wanted to be, or who are in very unhappy, unhealthy, or even abusive marriages, and maybe go through a divorce or who are widowed, that promise does so much harm. That's really the myth that affected me the most, as I share in the book.
It affected my faith the most, because I thought, where's the reward I get for waiting? Why haven't I met my husband? Because I met him a little bit later than I expected to. I was single for almost all my twenties, which was very different in my cultural background and upbringing; in my religious community that was considered pretty unique, to be single throughout my twenties. So that was the myth that affected me the most and affected my faith.
Alison Cook: That's interesting. There's a promise of, if you do this for God, God will do this for you. And then when that doesn't happen, it's devastating. It makes a lot of sense. It's interesting when you talk about the myths you use this word, and I have a lot of feelings about this word, and I think the word gets misunderstood, but I actually think it's the right word in this context.
You use the word “deconstructing” for some of these myths, and what I want to say to the listener is that it is really important to understand this word in context. Bracket all the things you've heard about this word--because it gets so misused and so misunderstood. But honestly, I had to deconstruct some of the messages I got about sexuality from religious communities.
I also had to deconstruct messages I got from Hollywood movies about sex and love. And that's why I like the use of that word in this context and how you use it in the book, because you're really saying exactly what that word is.
We have to look at these messages and deconstruct them. We have to pick them apart and go, what is really at the root of that? That doesn't make sense. This isn't logical or theologically sound. For example, to your point, this idea that God rewards people–if you do X, Y will happen– isn't a biblical or theologically sound assumption.
Dr. Camden: Yeah, I use the word deconstruct because we're taking it apart and then seeing what part is biblical and true and good and beautiful and from God and consistent with our faith and values. And then what part was wrongly interpreted or handed to us by people with maybe good intentions, but it's not true.
I talk about deconstruction on this kind of spectrum of home repairs. Not everybody demolishes their house with a wrecking ball. And that's what we sometimes hear about deconstruction: that it's a wrecking ball to your faith or to your belief system.
But it can be a remodeling of seeing what parts of this house are still working and what parts aren't, what parts are no longer serving us well, or they need to be updated because they were good materials back in the seventies or eighties and they're not now. So you can deconstruct and still hold on to some parts of it too.
Another misconception is that when you deconstruct, you throw it all away, and you completely start over from scratch. But that's not what it's looked like for me. It's looked like a careful and methodical process of picking apart what is true and what's unbiblical, and still leaving a foundation of truth in there.
Alison Cook: I love that. I love that, Dr. Camden. And you really talk about that in the book. You actually say in the book, "what's interesting is that some critics of purity culture may say that my own beliefs represent purity culture 2.0, since I still hold on to an ethic of premarital sexual abstinence, but the belief itself is not what makes something purity culture."
I love this argument. It's how we believe what we believe and why we believe what we believe and what is underneath what we believe in. It’s how you're talking about it with your spouse, with your kids, with your friends, that you're bringing a whole body and your whole being into it.
And you're also not assuming that your own perspective is the perspective for all people at all times, in all places either. There's a humility. One of the things I really like about what you do in the book is you provide a framework. You talk about Kohlberg's theory of moral reasoning and Fowler's phases of spiritual development.
It’s this idea that as we develop emotionally, as we develop more emotional maturity, as we develop cognitively, as we develop more cognitive maturity, we develop more critical thinking skills. We're also going to be developing in our moral reasoning, and we may arrive at the same conclusions, but the way we've reasoned through those hard issues looks very different.
It leads to more, again, humility, a more robust, whole body, you use the word “empowered”, being. Talk to me a little bit about that. I thought that was a really helpful reframing.
Dr. Camden: Yeah, as we develop cognitively with the ability to have abstract thought, critical thought, instead of concrete black and white thinking, that goes hand in hand with our spiritual and our moral development too, because we're thinking about things in more nuanced ways.
We're thinking about the gray areas. We're thinking about complexity. My goal for the book was really to help people think of how to think differently, and give some tools and some frameworks for doing that without telling them what to believe. I really wanted to give people the tools to try to figure that out for themselves because we didn't get that in purity culture.
We were told what to believe, what to do, what not to do. It was handed to us, and that didn't allow us as teenagers or young adults to apply the critical thinking that's necessary in order to make these really complex moral decisions about sexuality. And, like you said, to have a holistic and integrated sexuality, which I think is what the Bible supports.
Alison Cook: That's so good. And the book is filled with tools. One of the things I really like about what you do in the book is you say very clearly, look, I'm going to give you a wide list of tools, list of resources. I don't necessarily even agree with all of these lists of resources, but I believe in reading widely.
And I thought that was an example of what you're trying to teach. Listen, We don't have to be so threatened. We can listen to numerous perspectives and arrive at our own sexual ethic, at our own moral reasoning that's biblically informed. There was this phrase I used to love in graduate school.
One of my professors would always say, there are a lot of issues out there about which reasonable people can reasonably disagree. You're not trying in the book to tell people, as you said, what to believe. You're trying to say, listen, here's a bunch of different ideas about this. It's complicated. It's hard. Let's engage in it. Let's not be afraid of it.
And that's going to lead to this more wholehearted, more holistic way. I am curious toward this end. I know listeners are going to be thinking, okay, this is great. This is great for me. And I'm already married. I've figured it out. Oh my gosh, this is a lot of work and it's hard, but I'm already living this ethic, so how do I talk about it with my kids?
Dr. Camden: Yeah, that was the last chapter of the book because that's pivoting to, where do we go from here? And I will have some clients that will say, like, why do I even need to rethink my sexual ethic? Because as you said I'm married, I'm monogamous with my spouse. This doesn't really matter anymore, what I believe.
But I argue that it really does because doing the work to think through it yourself and arrive at a place where you feel confident and you feel like it's congruent with your theology and your faith and your values is empowering. So that's the first reason to do it. The second would be to teach your kids, because we have to know what our values are in order to communicate those to our kids.
At the same time, knowing that they're going to have autonomy to make their own decisions one day and arrive at their own conclusions to their own thought process and respecting their critical thinking and their journey in this.
But I want to teach my kids my beliefs and my values about sexuality. I also want to equip them with some critical thinking skills for them to think through how to apply this in their own life and the unique challenges that they're going to face in our changing world with media and all that kind of stuff.
Alison Cook: So what are some examples of how you might engage those conversations with your kids or how you might teach or how you might coach some of your clients through those conversations?
Dr. Camden: Yeah, we start with basic things, because I really think this can start from birth. Sex-ed is not a one and done talk, and that's how it was for me. Many of us growing up may have had this big talk, with our same-sex parent. I was sent to read a book and “come back if you have any questions”.
But it's really an ongoing conversation that starts when they're young, talking about their bodies and non-shaming ways, using correct names for body parts, modeling consent, empowering them to be able to say no if they don't want hugs and kisses and and things like that. So it starts really young with those kinds of concepts.
And then as they get older, infusing conversations with your family's values, making this part of your everyday conversation of when things come up. Ask your kids questions when something happens on TV, on a show. What do you think about that? Here's what we might think about this, or here's what we think the Bible says about this.
Why do you think that is? I think those open-ended questions can really help foster some of that critical thinking.
Alison Cook: Oh, that's really good, to actually use the media instead of turning it off. We don't watch this. This is bad. Instead saying, okay, this is interesting. What do you think about this? Because in that conversation, you're also”deconstructing” some of the cultural messages or the media messages about sexuality. You're having those conversations with your kids and together normalizing and demystifying. We need to talk about this.
Dr. Camden: I think those natural opportunities that arise are the best time to talk about it. When a new baby is born in the family, that's a time to talk about how the baby gets out and maybe how it got in there. With my little kids, that's what I would talk about.
How do you make decisions about when you know you're in love or when you feel safe with someone? What does that feel like? Those are some of the more nuanced questions I might have with older children and teenagers. Yeah. Looking for those opportunities every day, I think, rather than making it that “one and done” talk.
Alison Cook: Yeah. That's great. That's super practical. What do you say to folks who are really struggling with the disappointment, whether spiritual disappointment or disappointment in marriage, who are finding themselves like, man, this is not what I thought it was going to be? How do you talk with folks through some of those challenges?
Dr. Camden: The heartbreaking clients I work with are those that waited until they were married to have sex and maybe even waited to kiss until their wedding day because they thought that was the holiest choice. They courted instead of dated and they got married young and now they've been married 20 years and their sex life has never been enjoyable. It causes a lot of disconnection between them because they can't seem to make it work.
And they've got guilt and shame and then maybe some resentment too. And it's heartbreaking because they'll say, we did everything right. We followed all the rules. Why has it turned out this way? And I really make space to validate those feelings of disappointment without spiritually bypassing them. You've taught me that term of like, saying something like, everything works out for the good, or trust God.
But no, really allowing you to grieve that. When I work with couples, I'm really big on, this is not a mere you-problem. This is an us-problem. And this is something that is outside of ourselves. It's a third thing outside of the two of us that we can unite together to fight against.
And we can recognize that you didn't cause these problems. These are problems outside of ourselves that we had very little control or choice over, and we can have empathy for ourselves and each other because of that.
Alison Cook: I love that. That's really non-shaming. Let's come together in this, which also then leads to greater intimacy, which is truly what leads to healthier sexuality. It’s that ability to connect with each other through the pain of that.
Dr. Camden: Yeah, I hope by not seeing each other as adversaries, but as we're on the same team together and we're grieving together on how this problem has affected us and the pain that it's caused us over all these years. I hope by doing that, that they can feel closer and connected to each other.
And my definition of intimacy is anything that makes you feel close and connected to your spouse or your partner or another person. Often intimacy gets very narrowly defined as sex or physicality. The emphasis gets so put on that, like we're not having sex enough or we need to have more sex or I have low sex drive, when really it's more holistic.
Are you feeling emotionally connected? Are you socially connecting, having fun together and doing activities together? Are you spiritually connected through praying together, serving at your church together? And then are you intellectually connected, talking about your thoughts and feelings and reading books together or whatever it looks like for that couple?
There's so much more to intimacy than sex. When we focus on those other areas, couples will naturally feel closer. And sometimes that has an effect on their sexual desire and their connection.
Alison Cook: What would you say to the listener who, especially as a woman, wants so much to be a good wife and has internalized a lot of messages and feels a lot of guilt and shame for that part of her marriage? What words of encouragement or wisdom would you have for her?
Dr. Camden: I believe shame is not from God. God does not use shame as a tool to try to get us to change. I really differentiate in the book between guilt and shame, and I know you've talked about that too. We all borrow from Brene Brown with that too, of guilt as “I've done something wrong” and shame as “I am wrong”.
Women have a lot of both, but especially shame about their sexuality. Something about my sexuality is wrong or bad, or I'm not measuring up as a wife. If we can separate those two and really eliminate the shame part, and then examine the guilt part, are you acting in alignment with your values and beliefs?
If so, then the guilt is also not justified. That's one of the tools I use to help people to deal with their shame, and helping women feel that they're allowed to say no to sex. They're allowed to not always feel like they have to give their husband sex because again, it's not a give and take, it's a sharing.
We're sharing this experience together. We're sharing intimacy in our bodies together. But that was a very prominent teaching in purity culture and really broader than just Christian culture, this idea that men need sex and women have to be available and serve their husband's needs.
I want to empower couples to feel like they can say no in a gracious way and that they can navigate that together without resentment and bitterness towards each other and without guilt and shame.
Alison Cook: Yeah. You talk about in the book, the need for embodiment. In many ways, the purity culture messages around sex were very disembodied. Talk a little bit about how we can regain that sense of embodiment as an avenue for healthier sexuality.
Dr. Camden: That's an area I'm still working on, too. Hilary McBride has taught me a lot about embodiment, and I quote her in the book. That's very much still in process for me, is getting my mind and body integrated and aligned and really paying attention to my body. But I offer some suggestions in the book of ways that people can embrace and enjoy sensuality and being connected to their body and their senses, even if they are single or choosing to be abstinent.
You can still affirm your sexuality and recognize your desires. That doesn't mean you have to act on them. We can experience pleasure and express gratitude to God for that pleasure, that he made our bodies with the capacity for all sorts of pleasure. I'm not talking about sexual pleasure, but the pleasure of good tasting food or pleasant smells or sights in nature and things like that.
So really getting in touch with your five senses helps with that embodiment, and checking in with your body. That's a practice I'm trying to work on, of checking in with how my body feels and what information it’s giving me about my emotions or about my mental state or about my needs. Does this mean I need to eat? Does this mean I need to rest? Our body gives us such good information and many times we've been taught to ignore it.
Alison Cook: . Yeah. That's such a great thread that you pulled. And I agree. It's hard for most of us women. We have struggled with that embodiment piece. There's definitely the purity culture messages that I got as well, held in tension with what it’s supposed to look like in a Hollywood movie.
And I don't always feel like I’m in a Hollywood movie. Sex is not always like a Hollywood movie. Again, it seems so important to honor the bodies God gave us in a non-shaming way.
I love how you're describing the ability to teach couples to look at this as something they're in together, as opposed to against each other. I think playfulness can be so helpful with that, finding the humor in these bodies that God gave us and the play that leads to that intimacy you're describing.
It isn't Hollywood glam, and passion isn't always part of it. Sometimes, it's laughing together. It's enjoying each other, and even laughing at the absurdity of it all at times.
Dr. Camden: Yeah, it doesn't have to look like a movie set all the time. This is real life, and real bodies, and kids, and jobs, and the house, and physical health, and lots of life that we deal with. But I had a client the other day tell me, when she went through premarital counseling, the pastor told her she was supposed to be a tigress in bed.
That planted the seed of “I'm not good enough”. That planted the shame of I'm not a tigress. I don't feel that uninhibited and constant sexual desire, whatever the tigress means. She felt a lot of shame about that. And it was like, your husband married you for you.
If he is a good and healthy and loving and godly man, he accepts you for who you are and your body for how it is. And he loves you for that. You can feel safe to share that experience with him.
Alison Cook: Yeah. I love that. I love that. I think it's such important work that you're doing. You're really naming it and you're really helping people reframe it and arrive at a healthier, better place, which is how God wanted it. I'd love to circle back to the rest of these myths. What are some of these other myths that you keep encountering with folks?
Dr. Camden: Yeah, another one is the damaged goods myth, and that's the one that causes the most shame. Because for people who do have premarital sex, for people who are sexually abused and didn't choose that, they are called damaged goods. They are told they have less to offer their future spouse.
And that's so damaging and so not biblical. God doesn't look at us and see a damaged rose. He looks at us and sees his beloved children, his beloved image bearers. He offers us forgiveness. He offers us restoration and wholeness. I think that myth is probably the most damaging.
The gatekeepers myth is really pitting women and men against each other and creating this sense where women are the gatekeepers of sexuality. That they have to be the ones to set boundaries before marriage and constantly monitor how far we are going. But then after marriage they always have to be sexually available and meet their husband's needs.
That's the one I see causing the most problems in a marriage, in a relationship, but also sexually, because it's hard for women to turn that off and to really be in their bodies, to be embodied, and to enjoy the sexual experience with their spouse.
Then the last one, the spiritual barometer myth, where we are better Christians and our spirituality is measured by our virginity prior to marriage. That affects my clients in that sometimes they get married and they think, am I no longer pure because now I've had sex? Does this mean I'm dirty? And it still feels wrong and dirty.
Or I feel like I've lost this part of my identity. Virginity became so much a part of your identity, your purpose, your worth. And I also don't think that's biblical, because our purpose and worth and identity is found in Christ and what he's done for us and our relationship with him and following and serving him.
It's not about this narrow definition of purity as virginity, it's about serving God with our minds, heart, bodies, and souls.
Alison Cook: I love that you're naming that. Those are really helpful namings for people listening who are suffering with residual shame. And I'm curious as we close, Dr. Camden, you talked a little bit about your own journey through your twenties, carrying some of these messages. What would you say to that younger single you now, with all that you know now? What would you want her to know? What would you say to her?
Dr. Camden: Yeah, I have a different vantage point now because I am married and I have two children and I feel very blessed. I no longer see it as an if-then, because I followed the rules, then I'm blessed. I see these blessings as God's grace to me, this unmerited gift.
I wrote my dissertation on grace and couples, and that really made an impact on my faith and being able to reconceptualize that these are all gifts of God that I didn't earn. I didn't perform to get them, and so I think I would go back and tell myself, this is God's grace. Whether you're single, whether you're married, whether you have children or not, whether life hasn't turned out the way you expected, or whether you feel like you're living your best life–this is God's grace to you, and really trusting him in that.
Alison Cook: Yeah, there's no hierarchy of grace, whether you're single, whether you're divorced, whether you're married, whether you're struggling. God's grace is right there for you. He loves you. I know what you're saying. For so many of us, there was this hierarchy, and there still is, to a large degree.
It flies in the face of the gospel. I love that you would be able to give her that message now, that she's not trying to earn something from God.
Dr. Camden: And with that, I want to be sensitive to, if you're in a state where you've been through abuse or a really traumatic divorce or something where you think, how is this God's grace? I don't mean to say that God caused that or that God will work it for good, any of those kinds of things. I mean it to say that even so, God's grace is with you. God's grace is available to you. He loves and sees you. And he's with you in your pain, too. I really believe that he sees our pain. He's with us in it and through it.
Alison Cook: Yeah. I know what you're saying. It's a subtle distinction. I think about my own single years, where there was so much turmoil. I was also married into my 30s. And it's not to say that this is God's grace. It's to say, whatever your circumstances, God is there with you. There is a subtle shift there; even if the circumstances are really hard and I don't want this set of circumstances it's not that I've done something wrong to be in this situation.
Nor is it that I can do something to earn something different. Sometimes we find ourselves in hard situations, whether married, single, sexually active, not sexually active. Sometimes things are hard.
Dr. Camden: And that doesn't mean God's punishing you. I think there was this sense that this must be God's punishment that we're struggling in our sex life, because we did have premarital sex or something like that. And I don't believe we serve a God that arbitrarily punishes us and causes that suffering to happen.
I think the world is hard, life can be really hard, and hard things happen. Suffering is there, but He's with us even in the midst of it.
Alison Cook: That's right. And sex is complicated and hard to figure out and that has nothing to do with God's punishment. I love that you've written the book. It's such a helpful resource. I think there's a lot of people who've been hurt by this, but don't know how to rethink their sexual ethic and what they really believe and what they want to claim and what they want to reclaim.
And you're really giving people tools to do that for themselves and also to do that as they parent kids and move into healthy relationships. It's such a great resource. Tell people where they can find you, where they can find your work, the book, all the things.
Dr. Camden: Okay. Yeah. My book is Recovering from Purity Culture. It's available on October 15th. You can find it wherever books are sold. And my name is Camden Morgante. You can find me on my website, drcamden.com, and on all the social medias @DrCamden.
Alison Cook: Thank you. It's been a wonderful conversation. Super grateful for your work and thanks for giving us your time
Dr. Camden: And I'm thankful for your work too, Dr. Alison, because even though you don't use the word deconstruction, you've really helped us to see that some of these teachings need to be deconstructed. Like turn the other cheek–you've taught me about that one. You've helped us see, what does God really mean by that? How can we have a healthy spirituality and healthy emotional life?
Alison Cook: Thank you. I've appreciated your encouragement along the way. Pick up a copy of Recovering from Purity Culture anywhere books are sold. Thank you again.
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The Best of You Every Day offers short, daily reflections on Scripture through the lens of emotional health—helping you stay steady, connected, and rooted in love.
