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Is your to-do list a mile long? Are you that person who hustles to get the job done, no matter the cost to yourself?
If your inner task manager tends to take you (or someone you love) over, do not miss this episode on The Best of You Podcast with my friend and fellow therapist, Rebecca Ching. It's all about the gift and the cost of being a highly productive, can-do person. Rebecca speaks candidly about managing childhood trauma through becoming extremely productive-a survival skill she took with her deep into her adult life. You'll also hear more about our friendship, including the opposite ways we operate in order to protect ourselves.
Here's what we cover:
1. The moment Rebecca, as a young girl, walked out on a family therapy session
2. The story of being mugged together in our early 20's
3. How to re-org your inner circle to protect the health of your family
4. The shaming voice that surfaces when you give yourself permission to down-shift
5. The problem with the word "busy"
6. Key questions to ask in order to simplify your life.
7. Surprising ways you can start to rest & play
8. How faith messages can intensify productivity in not-so helpful ways
Connect with Rebecca at The Unburdened Leader Podcast or www.rebeccaching.com
Thanks to our sponsors:
- Organifi -Go to Organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
- Check out the Raising Boys and Girls Podcast at raisingboysandgirls.com/podcast
Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Resources
- To learn more about Fight / Flight / Freeze / Fawn Responses and The 7 P's of Managing Perceptions, check out my new book, The Best of You
- To learn more about Unburdening and the Internal Family Systems model, check out my book with Kimberly Miller, Boundaries for Your Soul
- Rebecca mentions The Daring Way certification program with Brené Brown
- Resources for support
- Mark 1:11 "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
- Proverbs 4:23 "Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.
Transcript
Alison: Hey, everyone, welcome to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast. I can't believe we are already into December, and as this year winds down, I have a favor to ask of you. I'd be so grateful if you would take two to three minutes, to fill out a survey we've designed. It's called The Best of You Podcast Survey, very creative title. And we're going to give three randomly selected participants a free copy of my new book The Best of You, as our way of saying thank you to you for taking just a couple of minutes to fill out the survey.
Here's the thing: we want to hear from you. I am passionate about getting these resources to you for free, every week, to help you in your life. I want this to mean something to you and to be helpful to you. And in order to do that, I need to hear from you.
So please take two to three minutes. You can do it right now, go to The Best of Your Podcast Survey link. It's in the episode notes of this episode. It's also on my website, dralisoncook.com/podcast. It'll take just a few minutes, two to three minutes max, to fill out the survey. We'd be so grateful to hear directly from you on how to make sure this podcast is providing you with real help, you can apply in your everyday life.
Hey, everyone, welcome back to The Best of You podcast. Where today we are going to talk about the hustle. And by the hustle what I mean are those parts of us that produce, perform, work overtime to get the job done. These are the task managers, the productive parts of us. And going into Christmas, I know so many of these parts of us are in overdrive.
We've got the list, we've got the goals, we've got the vision, and we are going to get the stuff done. We are the go-to people and we know how to get it done. And to talk about these productive, these producing parts of us. I asked my friend, I have known Rebecca since we both lived in Washington, D.C., right out of college. So, I don't know, I don't want to age us, Rebecca, is that 25 years or more? More probably.
Rebecca: Yep!
Alison: So my friend Rebecca, is a Trauma-Informed Leadership Coach, a psychotherapist, and she's the host of a podcast called The Unburdened Leader podcast. And for those of you who have been listening in or who if you've read my first book, Boundaries for Your Soul. We have actually not talked a lot about Internal Family Systems, on this podcast yet. Rebecca is also trained in Internal Family Systems, in IFS. So if you've read my first book, you're well aware of what we mean by unburdened and by this parts model. If you are not familiar with that language, tune in because I'm going to do a whole series on it in the new year.
But her podcast is just a beautiful podcast, where she interviews all kinds of leaders. About how to lead from a place of calm, a place of clarity, a place of curiosity, an unburdened place. We're trying to get out of that pressurized place and into clear, calm, unburdened leadership.
And, so, she is someone who practices what she teaches. She tries to live and model all the things she talks about. And as I know, because I've known you a long time, you've come by that the hard way. Just as I've come by everything I've learned the hard way.
I mean when it comes to hustle, when it comes to productivity, I knew you back in the day. You knew how to get the job done better than anyone. So this unburdened leader, this place to which you have arrived, now, you've come by the hard way and I can't wait to have this conversation with you. Thanks for being here, Rebecca.
Rebecca: Oh, I am so thrilled to be here. Yes, I'm looking forward to this conversation, Alison.
Alison: Yes, so I want to just hit the ground running with an early memory of, and I'm calling it hustle. Does that word hustle resonate with you?
Rebecca: Yes, grind, hustle, work, just the grind culture, yes, the doing, all of that resonates.
Alison: Getting it done.
Rebecca: Yes.
Alison: I mean, it is producing, it's performing, but it's just that kind of grind. That's a good word because there's a tension to it. There's an edge to it, in a way, when we are in that task mode. So what's an early memory of hustling, of producing.
Now, I know hindsight is 2020, so at the time you might not have realized what you were doing. But what's a memory of when you started to operate in that way?
Rebecca: Yes, and, so, I almost want to back it up a little bit because there's a memory. But there are some influences, as I was thinking about our conversation, and one of the biggest memories and early influences. Believe it or not, if you know me, I love pop culture.
And, so, movies, and TV, and magazines were a thing back in the '80s. So I was really drawn to the female archetype who was smart, she was hardworking, she worked her way to the top. She didn't need anybody, and that really was indicative of what I was going through at the time. I mean, my parents had a very conflictual marriage and a three-year separation during my middle school years. Ended in divorce, and there was a lot of abuse, and conflict, and chaos at home.
And, so, I was really drawn to this '80s archetype; the shoulder-pad suits, the slicked-back hair. She didn't need anybody, and then usually there was like a Michael J. Fox character that would come in and melt her heart. And it was kind of gross all of the tropes that I breathed in.
But there was something that felt like, "Oh, if I don't need anybody and I just work, and I have money, and power. I can escape what I'm feeling and still have this recognition, I can have freedom, I can have choice."
There's something about watching some of those archetypes, at a young age, that burned into my psyche. Combined with growing up in the Protestant work ethic, and then in Minnesota, where I grew up on steroids, it was so in the air.
I breathed in, "You work." No exaggeration, you get up, and you shovel the snow in below zero weather, and you scrape off the ice on your car, and turn the car on. And then when it was still dark... that was just what you did.
We would ski. I mean, I know you grew up in cold weather, too. So there was just those two influences. And I say this with humility, but also a sense of pride, once I realized I had a brain. I was gifted with a brain and also I was good at sports.
And, so, at a young age I realized, "Oh, there was something about this kind of comfort." That I realized, "Of getting good grades, and being in the honors' classes, or being on the sports teams, and performing well, and producing the results that calmed the pain that I was feeling. And, so, it was this thing everyone praised. "Oh, you got the home run."
"You got the high test score."
And I had a shadow side, too, because there was this sense of if I didn't ever meet a 100% I had failed. So then I would try and produce more, and work more, and perform more. But it was chasing this idea that these results, these ways of doing and being, would help separate me from the immense discomfort, and loneliness, and pain, that I was sitting with as a kid.
And, then, as we got into high school and then college, and discovering my interests and passions. It was just like putting oil on the fire, fuel on the fire of performing. Because, as we mentioned at the beginning of the show, I got into politics and that's just a place where... My wardrobe in D.C. was suits and workout clothes; I had no casual wear. It was like my-
Alison: Yes, that's the metaphor right there.
Rebecca: Right there. I mean, we'd go to work and then you'd go to some function that you got an invitation to, the happy hour, and you'd meet up with your friends. But it was usually some work networking or an event, and then you'd go home. Maybe go to the gym at night or in the morning depending.
And, so, yes, I think there was just that piece and then it just fed on itself. And then as I got older getting sick was seen as weakness, and if I wasn't producing that was like a moral failure when my body was tired, and I judged others too.
So it was this sense of just going and going because if I wasn't producing. If I wasn't pushing myself and achieving these goals, then I'd have to sit with what I was feeling and that wasn't very fun.
Alison: Yes, it sounds like it worked to some degree. In the sense of, especially, early on, maybe in those middle school, high school years, when there's a lot of chaos at home. Hard to make sense of that escape, almost, of getting that achievement, pushing yourself into sports. I mean, it wasn't an entirely unhealthy outlet, it's what I'm getting at.
Rebecca: Well, it was better than drugs. It was better than sleeping around. But I guess nobody knew me and I don't know if I knew me, but I knew how I was supposed to be.
Alison: Tell me more about that. Were you aware of feeling that at the time, feeling alone even while you were in the grind?
Rebecca: Well, I don't know how much I think I was aware of, "Okay, I'm smiling, but I don't feel like smiling but this is what we're supposed to do." I was a cheerleader, captain of the cheering squad. And I mean, I'd get excited but inside I'd have this constant ache and there were just the burdens I was carrying.
And, again, I loved people, I loved community, I loved team things, I loved gathering. I would host the parties and those kind of things, I loved all of that stuff. And I think the world says, "Well, it could have been worse." Sure, but I was breathing in the whole performance. So I guess I'm saying at the time, sure, it looked like it worked.
Like, "Oh, wow, you get good grades and you did things with your career. and you achieved these things, and, oh, Rebecca, you do so much." Yes, but at what cost? And, so, while I had some really great fun memories, I still am right now in a massive rewiring my nervous system, and what it means to rest, and to downshift, and to not be moving towards achieving.
I mean, I don't think I'm going to check out of that ever. Because that was so connected to my safety, and to my identity, and to my belonging.
Alison: Yes, but when did you begin to realize that consciously, right? In hindsight, again, there was a cost, there was an ache, "I knew it." But when did you begin to, consciously, realize, "I've got to change something?"
Rebecca: Well, you were there for that moment, Alison, in D.C., and you and I were coming back from a late dinner and we were mugged. And I remember you got jumped first, and then I jumped on the guy that jumped on you, and then the other guys jumped on me.
And I'm laughing because it feels so surreal. And then I remember I heard this wild noise and I realized it was me screaming. And I then I heard your voice saying, "Just let him have it." And I realized they just wanted our backpacks, they didn't want to hurt us.
So I relaxed so they could pull my backpack off, and they ran. I ended up going to the hospital because I had smashed my knee in the struggle. And I walked or kind of limped on crutches into my therapist's office, I had just started therapy. And my therapist looks up at me, as I enter the door on my crutches, and smiles and says, "Oh, it's nice to see you leaning on something."
And I was like, "Oh." And I wanted to cuss her out, I was so angry at her . And then at work, I was working for a senator at the time. I kept getting up on my crutches and going to talk to staff, and moving around. And everyone was like, "Rebecca, you don't have to come to our office, sit your butt down and heal your knee."
People were getting mad at me, and I'm like, "Bo, I'm not going to let this get me down. I have to keep showing I can do this." There was no downshifting. So that was the beginning of an unraveling that showed up over the next couple of decades, for sure, but that's a big one. When you asked that question as you were prepping for this call, I was like, "It was that moment."
Alison: I want to pause on it for a second, because I've never told that story on this podcast. And there are a couple of things I want to tease out. I mean, first of all, I don't think I realized, at that time, that you had started seeing a therapist. It was before therapy was really normative in a way.
Rebecca: Yes.
Alison: So it's not like we were talking. Actually, I'm just realizing, I didn't realize you did have a therapist at the time. It wasn't something that we all did. I mean, we knew about it, we knew about therapists, it was on the front end of it.
Rebecca: Yes, I've been in and out of therapy most of my life with family; we did group therapy. My parents brought us to therapy when they were divorcing. So, for me, I pretty much saw how I didn't want to be a therapist through almost all of the therapists I had up until the one in D.C., which she worked out of a church.
So I wanted to see someone with a faith-based orientation that was important to me. I never had done that before, and that was a beautiful a gift.
So, yes, I already had that and it was across town from where I worked. So I had to get on the metro and go across town and then go up a hill. So I ended up taking cabs to see her because I couldn't get there on time on my lunch break, if I had to do it on my crutches. Well, it's interesting because I just realized, again, we've known each other a long time. So I grew up in a very Christian culture that would've seen going to a therapist as a little bit outside.
Rebecca: Sure.
Alison: And, so, I'm interested, I don't think I had realized that for you that'd been more a part of the norm. And you knew you needed help and that was something that had been part of your... It hadn't been necessarily that effective, potentially. Because I always like to ask people on this podcast. Every time I ask somebody, "When you reached out for help what was the result?"
I get mixed. Some people are, "I had a terrible experience with a therapist." Or, "I had a great experience with a therapist." So I like bringing that to the surface, because it's important for people to realize that just going to a therapist isn't necessarily the fix. It's finding the right person to come alongside you.
So this is a little bit of a tangent, I want to back up for just a second. Because through this experience of the achieving, and the ache, and the loneliness, and knowing there was this disparity. There were some people coming alongside of you, at some point, but it wasn't, necessarily, helping. Is that correct?
Rebecca: I think I would say, too, one of the gifts that if there's something that I wanted or knew I needed, I just went for it. And I don't know how conscious it was, it was just like, "There's a gap in my life, so I need to figure out how to fill the gap."
And, so, from a young age, I don't know if it's just... I've got a parent who is an entrepreneur and you get scrappy, and you figure things out. But there was just this sense of knowing and looking for more.
I've always been hungry for what's more, what's better, what's different from a young age. And then if I saw something that was an injustice, like the therapist that saw my whole family when we my parents were divorcing, and he would get mad at me for being mad. And I remember I slammed the door, and one of his pictures fell and he yelled at me about that. And I had so much enjoyed that I got to him, and I just remember that, too.
But if I saw an injustice, I wanted to better it. There was always this sense of improving. I had to improve everything; myself, my environment, others. But I was also the one, particularly in high school and middle school that people would come talk to, no surprise.
It was like they would come down to me with all their questions about boys, and relationships, and all the things. Even though I was friends with everyone, I wasn't really in a serious relationship, but I was the go-to.
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Rebecca: And, so, there was just this sense of wanting to learn, to better, to grow, to be different than what I was seeing at home. I knew, early on, that what I was being taught wasn't the way. And, so, when things weren't effective I ended... there is a sense I did end that.
So I hadn't thought about it that way. And even if some of the therapists weren't helpful. I remember in second grade going to a family therapy session and my parents listing all the drugs they were using, and substances they were using, and then they dropped me back off at school. And I remember sitting in this classroom waiting for everyone to come back from recess going, "What just happened?"
And like, "Oh, my gosh, that was horrible." So, yes, it took me a while. But this wonderful woman in D.C., she had just this beautiful integrative approach with clinical and theological approach, and just presence. And, so, when I walked in on crutches after our mugging, that was the time I started to realize I couldn't just push through. I could stop, and feel, and heal what happened.
Alison: And she had the trust with you to say what she said. It wasn't the first session when you walked in, and there was that trust and that safety there. What's interesting, Rebecca, and, again, I want to zoom back to this mugging. But I'm learning about you, as a friend and in our friendship, even thinking about your relationship with therapy.
Where you and I, we both have this hustle, productivity, get the job done part of us, but it manifests very differently. And even in your relationships with therapists, I'm going to call it, and you can correct me on this. But I'm thinking about the Fight/Flight response, and it's like you'll go into fight mode. Even with that early therapist you're like, "I'll go. Man, I've got fight, I'll go to the therapist, I'll get there. I mean, I had to, my parents dragged me there." But there was that a little bit of fight. Or "I'll leave."
Or, "I'm happy if I get to him."
Rebecca: Yes.
Alison: And then in the mugging, that's where I'm circling back to, there was that fight response. "Man, I'm going to protect my friend." And what's fascinating, I have much more of that Flight/Fawn, so I would never have gone to a therapist. You couldn't have paid me to go. I was halfway through my doctoral training to become one and I was like, "No way." So my way is to avoid or I fight through fleeing. I go the opposite direction.
So actually it's interesting, so my protective strategy is I won't protect myself with someone who's not helping me. So I just won't go near them. I won't give anybody a chance, I'll keep everybody out, that's how I protect myself.
Whereas you would go in and if it got bad or if it wasn't helpful, you would speak up a little bit more, and that's an oversimplification. But I want to zoom in on that mugging moment because that is where just for-
Rebecca: Pretty indicative of my personality.
Alison: Well, but, yes, both of our responses, if you think of that survival, that nervous system response.
Rebecca: Yes.
Alison: I remember, vividly, I could tell, I don't remember if you did. I remember thinking, "Oh, this doesn't feel good." We're walking, I was like, "Oh, this isn't good." I felt it, I just collapsed. I don't even think I screamed.
I mean, I realized, "Oh, my gosh, when faced with danger I won't fight, I won't run, I will just surrender." That was scary for me. You on the other hand went into fight. I mean, you were going to protect me. It's interesting because those are those survival mechanisms.
Rebecca: It was of value, too, because I remember there was this moment where I looked at you and this guy. Because these were really tall guys, they were three guys and you and I are not. We're not blessed with height, but we're blessed with might. But and I remember just thinking, "Well, if I'm going to go, I'm not going to go just standing here watching my friend get hurt." And I was just all in, and that was something I really tapped into. I was like, "Okay."
But what was interesting is some of our mutual guy friends, I felt a little shame, because they said, "Oh, if it was just Rebecca, she never would've been mugged." There was almost this sense of like, "She's so tough." You know what I mean? Like my strength was a repellent and that's been an interesting dance. Where people are drawn and repelled by strength.
And, so, yes, I think that was an interesting time where I started to own that. But that was a clear moment, it was almost like I just hear this God moment, of like, "If you're going to go." And I just didn't. I mean you were getting hurt and I was like, "Screw this."
Excuse me, but you're right about the fight and connecting it to producing and productivity. I don't know how to downshift and I'm just getting a handle of downshifting. It's like, "Okay."
Because I think even in one of our conversations, maybe, this year. You're like, "Rebecca, you don't always have to be improving, you are enough now." And I was like, "Oh, yes." It's like I never want to settle. And I'm like, "Oh, geez, I've breathed in with so many of the leaders I work with, and so many of the clients I work with, and my clinical work. That when am I enough?"
I'm like, "Oh, shoot, my enough, it was there when I was born."
And, so, how to separate that from I still want to refine, and grow, and push, but then even that can be its own drug of choice for me. And I have to sit with the discomfort of just being. And, so, I'm really trying to pay attention to that because I love to do, and create, and push, and challenge.
But then at what expense to myself, my wellbeing, the most important relationships, and rest, and play, those things that I used to laugh at. Like, "Oh, rest and play, that's for those wimpy folks that need to. This is my life, I work." Oh, my gosh, it's embarrassing that I think about it. But you know me, then, and it still comes up every now and then, too.
Alison: Well, this is the whole series, each of these productivity, whatever you want to call it, has its strengths, and I see, to this day, those strengths in you. You are going to show up. You've shown up for me at times when I'm like, "You shouldn't be showing up for me, you're tired."
As your friend I know this about you, you will show up. Even when you're exhausted, excellence, justice, all of these things are really beautiful, good qualities. And I think that's what's really hard about these parts of us because, and there's a cost.
Rebecca: There's a big.
Alison: There's a cost, we have to balance them out. And, so, again, going back to this moment, we've been circling around it. But there's this moment where there's a physical. You're walking into your therapist's office in crutches, and she says, "It's good to see you leaning on something."
And, again, even today I can see it in your face, you're shaking your head at yourself, "Yes, it took that." And even then, I know there was still many more, but it took that almost physicalizing something embodied to slow down just a little bit, which was still not quite easy for you.
Rebecca: And parenthood was the other big catalyst because for a while, then, I was finding work and family were at war with each other. And I'm like, "Oh, that's not working." And, so, a few years ago I really wanted to say, "Okay, my loves; what I love to do, and to give, to serve, to work, and my family are going to be on the same team. I'm not going to pivot them against each other."
But that's when I started realizing, if anything, it's taking me away from being the best partner. The best parent, and the best friend that I want to be, and community member, I need to rethink this. Because work was and producing was trumping it all and it was so reflexive.
Alison: Can you tell me a little bit about that? As a parent, how did you begin to notice that? What are some examples of when you noticed, "Oh, my gosh, the reflexive instinct here is something I've got to start to pay attention to."
Rebecca: Yes, and it's something that my husband Gavin and I talked about early on. He knows that I love to just create, and build, and try, and do new things. He knew it more about me than I did. It was a few years into the marriage. And I'm like, "I think I'm an entrepreneur."
And he's like, "Yes, like really." And then with kids, having kids, I realized many folks who've grown up in homes where there are a lot of challenges. I know, for me, going into parenthood, I knew more of what I didn't want to do than what I did. So I had a lot of things to learn there too.
Oh, and then being a trained psychotherapist with the trauma specialty, I was like, "Oh, it's all about presence. And, so, how am I showing up with my littles? How am I showing up with myself? And I can't do that if I'm spinning out and running around."
And then I started recognizing, "Oh, okay." And, so, it's just navigating that, and especially as they got a little bit older. I mean, some people have different phases they love for those who parent, or care-give, or are step-parents.
I mean, my kids are in their preteen and teen, and this is my sweet spot. But also just those moments of being with, and that's when I had to slow down, and then all of a sudden stuff came up. But also it was like, "Oh, I want to do things differently and I can't do it all."
I started realizing my capacities. I mean, when we're in our 20s it feels like we can just do about anything. When you're blessed with physical ability and health, you do that. And then just the fatigue. And my oldest daughter is on the autism spectrum and there were some other things coming around that, and I got really protective there.
And, so, I realized, "Okay, if this is a priority, to create the home and the safe space that I wanted for them." Then I needed to make some shifts in what I was valuing, what I was worshiping unintentionally, and started to really redefine what producing and productivity were. And, so, yes, I'm still untangling it from it all, but having kids was the next phase of that awakening.
Alison: I always love how intentional you are about those things. You become aware, you get intentional, you get the resources that you need. But I can imagine in the context of the childhood trauma.
The history around which this beautiful, again, entrepreneurial, creative, productive, can-do woman that God made you to be. This is good. This is a good part of you. But yet some of these ways in which it got extreme.
Rebecca: Yes.
Alison: Out of a context of trying, it was your way out of pain for those early years. So, again, at every moment, and we know this to be true, that when we step back a little bit. Whether it's the pleasing, the perfecting, the performing, whatever it is, things come up because we do those things for a reason.
And, so, you have the value. You're like, "I want to be present for my kids, I know this is important. I've got to shift my relationship to work, to producing." What came up for you and how did you care for yourself, as you made that shift?
Because I think that's why it's hard for people to change and to shift, is things come up for us. For me, if I shift away from a little bit of that people-pleasing drive, and over time. I'm aware of it, and it's like, "Oh, yes, that's why I do it because it's scary."
Rebecca: Yes.
Alison: There's stuff under the hood there.
***
Rebecca: It took me a good chunk of years to untangle myself from a lot of commitments, and spaces, and things that I developed. But I realized I needed to simplify, and I got really picky on what I was giving my attention to, and who I was giving my attention to, and that felt important. And it is still a challenge, and you and I've had many a conversation about social media on that area too.
But it involved a lot of reorganization with who was our inner circle. What does support look like for me? And I found a lot of support in the work spaces, but I was diving deep into Brené Brown's Daring to Lead community.
So I'm a certified facilitator and also a consultant, and I've done trainings for them. But to do that work you have to, it's like the self of therapist. And with IFS it's the same thing, it's a way of leaving. Shame, resilience, IFS, they're a way of living and being.
And, so, I was drawn to these methodologies that weren't just frameworks that I could teach. I had to live it if I was going to be a decent model for this, for anyone else who was wanting to learn it.
So it was this intuitive being drawn to the things that we needed to learn for ourselves. And, so, I was learning what I needed to learn also to help others learn it too. So these communities, that I'm a part of professionally, became the space. And at the same time, in my personal life, my husband and I had to get rid or do a big reorg.
Because we realized, to have our home be safe it meant setting tougher boundaries. Maybe with folks who felt entitled to our family because of being related, or proximity, or whatever, and being intentional about who we sought out. And it's harder to make friends and build community in that post-college era because everyone is so full and their schedules.
And I think that's the other thing, too, is I try not to stay busy. I don't want to be busy. I want my life to be full of things that I love and that are aligned, and I know that's a privilege and a gift. And sometimes we got to just do the things because we got to do the things, and adulting is what it is.
But that's become part of it too. And I had to do a lot of work with some of the voices I internalized of, "Who do you think you are to be..." Fill in the blank. And I came from a family where there's a lot of brilliant, talented people, but everyone was siloed to their one thing.
And, then, either this person is this, so that means you can't be that too. And I am a multiplicity of talents, and gifts, and things, but I didn't pursue them because that wasn't nurtured because I wasn't tapped with that. And, so, part of parenthood helped me discover that too. Because there's that thing awakened, that, kind of, Mama bear for me awakened. But, again, it took me quite a while to detangle.
So when Covid hit, I had been feeling for a while to simplify and began the process of scaling back, and released the brick and mortar that I'd been running, and the team of 10 that I'd been leading. And I started this business to help with leadership, coaching, and consulting. Which I've been dreaming about and working on for years before that, but solidified that so I could be home as much as I can as my kids were getting older.
But it's tricky, Alison, I still struggle to rest well and I'm really trying to build in practices, and I'm trying to check myself on what's the meaning and motivation of what's going on in my head. "Am I trying to create, or build, or cultivate something out of protection and fear?"
Or is it something that's coming up that it's, almost, like I cannot get it out. And that's what I've seen with other projects I've done. I have to just write it out, or create it, or sketch it out. And, so, I'm trying to get be better discerning of that and really trying to like butt on the couch watching a show, or reading a book, sketching, journaling, getting outside, just slowing that down.
Because I do love what I do but I'm starting to see I don't have to keep that drive that, as a young kid, that helped me, go, "I got to do something different. I got to find other mentors or other resources." That younger part can still show up, if she gets scared and feels disconnected from me.
Alison: Yes, and how does she, that younger part of you, as you rumble with this idea of rest.
Rebecca: Yes.
Alison: How does she experience rest and play?
Rebecca: Hmm, okay, she's a real goofball and a real dork, and my kids don't always enjoy her, but I do. And I enjoy seeing my kids get annoyed with me or roll their eyes, and I have to watch that because I can push it a little much because it's so entertaining.
But, yes, I'm just a goofball. I lose that place when I let myself just let her lead a little bit. I'm not caring what other people think. It's awkward dance parties, singing at the top of my lungs. It's not editing myself, or on the other hand, it's a deep place of deep listening and curiosity.
I'm in a just a radical presence of, "Oh, my gosh, a new person, a new story, a new thing to learn." And it's like sitting criss-cross, applesauce around, and it's like, "Oh, tell me more." And there's just this joy, I love learning from other people and just listening to their stories, that just delights my system. Because that little girl likes to see herself in other stories or she gets a lot of perspective, from others' lived experiences.
Alison: I love that because, especially, for producers, I love that you're touching on this idea of rest. Rest is hard for a couple of reasons. Some of it is the self-imposed-
Rebecca: It sounds weak.
Alison: Yes, it sounds weak. Some of it is there's a lot of energy. I know when tap into the young producer performer in me, she's just full of energy. She wants to move. She wants to move. And, so, I've had to think about rest in a different way. And that's what I'm kind of hearing you say rest for her. That's why I was curious, what rest for her isn't necessarily putting her nose in a book, it might be.
I had to learn that rest doesn't, necessarily, mean sitting still in a quiet room. Rest for me might be a lot of movement, but just movement that's fun, and playful, and there's a lot of different ways we can rest.
Rebecca: Yes, I mean it's Tahoe for me. Lake Tahoe, which we discovered, I'm in San Diego now and I've lived in the Midwest, in the East coast, and I've lived in Europe. And, so, Tahoe's this beautiful mixture of some of the most significant parts of my life. And lake life is different than ocean life and has a different energy to it. There's a stillness inside, even when my body is moving in nature or when I am just listening to others.
Going to my Sunday school, just one of my spiritual practices, and just listening, really, watching my judgers or my defenders come up. Because it's this beautifully, it's diverse in theology, and political orientation, and socio-economic status. It's not very diverse in race, necessarily, but it's this place that helps get me out of my polarities.
And, so, these parts kind of all come with me and listen, and come, and we don't break bread together, but we're talking about the Word. And, then, my Sunday and school teacher will stir things up. And then parts of me like my know-it-all parts, my I-want-to-teach parts, my defense parts. And then there's just those little girl's, it's like, "Oh, what do they think?"
"And what do they think?" Or, "Oh, that wasn't very nice to say."
And, so, just sitting with that and delighting. But it really has been good to be in community too, and get out of, sometimes, the bubbles and the work zones that we can be, and in the echo chambers.
So maybe rest isn't the best word for it but that spiritual practice of just rubbing shoulders with people, and being in community that's not about creating, and producing, and productivity, and being identified by whatever titles or letters by my name. It's, "We are connecting and coming together." That fills my cup and it's life-giving, even when it's a little hard, if that makes sense too.
Alison: I love that. The word that comes to mind is curiosity. When you're just given permission to just be curious and just be present, without having to be anybody or do anything. And, again, that's energizing, it's life-giving.
It might not fit that classical definition of rest, but for you it's giving the young one inside of you instead of producing, or performing, or earning her words. She just gets to... I get this picture of her just Curious George, just super curious and enjoying that, delighting in that.
Rebecca: And what I've seen, especially, with the leaders that I most admire and the leaders that I get to work with. They're the ones that detox from the very dangerous personal and professional development messages, that we've all been sold and breathed, in over the years. About pushing through, and exiling our pain, and overcoming, and all of that stuff. And it's like once a bit and then coasting.
It's just so full of privilege and power over, and not full of that consent of those different parts of us that just want to be seen. And the leaders that I'm drawn to, and the leader that I want to be, is definitely one that's able to sit with a lot more of that presence, and that curiosity, and owning. Sitting with my discomfort in the presence of someone else's discomfort. And I can't do that if I'm trying to fix, strategize, mobilize, organize, I can't.
And, so, I'm finally getting it. I mean, I've read that, I've been taught that, and now it's starting to metabolize in my system more and integrate. And I think that's the gift of age, honestly. I think that's taken me a while to work through that and that's the gift of feeling a little bit more settled in that.
But I'm also seeing it with my kids though, too. My kids, they don't have all that stuff. They're carrying a lot from the times they're growing up. But when I see them listening. When I see them learning, I see them asking questions with abandon, and a lack of self-consciousness, that's beautiful. I didn't have that as a kid.
So seeing leaders who can create spaces for real sharing. For a welcoming of the mess, and the imperfection too, and for collective struggle. I was always taught that I had to do this on my own, the lone wolf. The very individualistic way of surviving and excelling. There's no I and team and just cheesy as that is, I forgot that for a long time because that's what I needed to do to survive and to be able to do something different.
And, so, when I am producing at the expense of connecting, or really the presence of witnessing someone, that does harm. And I've done that, and I, again, untangling from that, not intentional, but still the impact's not great. But when we're raised with, "Oh, you're producing, you're doing so much, you're so great." You just go into automatic pilot but we lose touch with who's in front of us.
Alison: Yes, that's beautiful. I love the picture of, it's interesting because you've told me a lot about that Sunday school class, and I never really pieced it together before that. But for you being there and giving yourself permission to be with all that's going on there. Without needing to take over, take charge, strategize, teach, instruct, just be with is a spiritual practice for you that makes so much sense to me.
Rebecca: You got it.
Alison: And it's being part of a community because being part of a community, when you're used to being an achiever, a producer, it can feel inefficient. At least to me, it can feel inefficient. It can feel messy like you're saying.
But I love almost the spiritual practice of being with, just watching, noticing. And even what you were saying there was that different energy. It's not judging, it's not criticizing, it's, "Oh, that wasn't nice." Just how kids are when they just state what's true. They're just, "Oh, ouch."
Rebecca: And saying that, hey, I noticed in me when that was said, this is what that brought up, versus, "You need to stop this if you were really a good Christian." And that's the circular leadership where the power is more egalitarian versus that hierarchical that you and I were raised on, on so many levels. And this top-down has just got me rethinking, it's about power too. There's so much about power because I felt like I was so powerless as a kid. And I had to do whatever I could to maintain some level of my own sense of power or to reclaim it.
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Rebecca: And I think now, more than ever, with people there's just so much hurt. So much polarizations, and so much pain, that's where it's like, "Okay, that's the call on us to be able to sit with our discomfort so that we can sit with others." And I know that I can go into that produce/perform. I can put the smile on, I know how to appease. You and I, both, probably, we got PhDs in appeasing, but I also just want to be real.
And, so, I think that's the work and, so, there's something about rest that's very much connected in me being seen, and me being present. Me witnessing myself and what's going on with me, and allowing others to see that, outside of my identities that are related to work or producing.
Alison: That's beautiful. I mean, this is exactly this whole series. It's moving from managing the perceptions going in, "I'll be the can-do person here, which is exhausting for me and doesn't really lead me to the connections I so deeply need."
And, again, just that picture of you sitting in that circle with the freedom to say, "Oh, that didn't sit well with me." There's so many ways we can be authentic, we can be real, we can speak on behalf of what we're noticing inside of us. And you're doing such a good job, Rebecca, of it's all the stuff we talk about. It starts with being curious and compassionate with all of our own internal-
Rebecca: It's ground zero.
Alison: With all the things that go on inside of us, and that's what enables us to show up with other people, and sit with all that's going on in that room. All that's going on with our kids, all that's going on in our families, all that's going on in our church groups. Whatever the room is-
Rebecca: In the world.
Alison: In the world. Not silencing, not fleeing, not just caving, or fawning, which was my go-to. Not needing to fight, or lead, or take charge.
Rebecca: Not everything has to be a danged fight or debate.
Alison: Yes, but simply being present, and that's where we start to feel real connection. We build that safety inside of ourselves, that allows us to be in a room where we don't require perfection to feel safe. We need enough, we need a critical mass of safety, sure, but then we can be in that room and be present to ourselves. Present to others with that same curiosity and compassion.
Rebecca: Can I add one more thing, though? I think that's important to this too. For me, for so long, too, I was raised in a mixed faith home. But I didn't really start my own faith journey until the end of high school. And for so long, the messages I got around faith was, "If you believed then life was good."
"If you had faith and if things were struggling, I was doing something wrong."
And, so, that message played upon my producing, and performing, and productivity parts. It's like, "Oh, if there's struggle then I got to figure out what flaw is in me." This deficiency versus kind of the more Imago Dei model of really seeing myself as an image bearer. And those around me as an image bearer, regardless of even how they identified in their faith journey.
And, so, for me, there was a lot of that unhooking of some of those messages that I had to... or of this image of, "if I am going to be a success I have to have it all together, and I can't show the underbelly of my humanity."
And I'm not saying all the things all the time, some things are just sacred and private, but I had to start owning it myself. And I was exiling my story because it didn't fit this narrative of what it meant to be a good follower of Christ.
And, so, that was also a big part for me to allow myself to downshift and to be able to find more rest. When I realized to lean into what God said to Jesus right after He was baptized, "You are my beloved, and with you I am well pleased."
This was right after He was baptized but before, at least, what we know, of all the miracles, all the things He did, "You are my beloved, and with you I am well pleased." That was right after... I was like, "Okay." So there's something about that, that it took a while to metabolize, too. But I think that plays a role in it for me in my journey too.
Alison: Yes, we can Christianize our hustle, I hear you on that, and that's a really good word. There's a lot of layers there, thank you so much for that. I'm curious, What would you want to say to that younger you, whether it's the 15-year-old, absorbing all of those tropes about the lone wolf, shoulder-pad wearing female hero. What would you say to her now?
Rebecca: I would say, "You probably aren't going to take this in, but this doesn't have to be the path. And I'm here for you when you're ready to listen." Because I wouldn't have listened, I just know her, I should have been.
I'm a redhead and I live up to the stereotype of stubbornness, but I just would've said, "I'm here. I'm here a little sooner maybe to her. I'll be just like, "There are other ways, when you figure it out that this isn't working. You don't have to keep pushing one result or one outcome, and I'm here to listen, and I'm here to be with you when you're ready."
Alison: Sounds like wise parenting. The non-shame based, non-power over. Just, "I see what's happening. I know you and I'm here, when you're ready."
Rebecca: When you're ready to listen.
Alison: Yes, I love it. What would you to say to others who are listening, who struggle with producing, performing, for their worth?
Rebecca: I'm here for you when you're ready to downscale, I'm just kidding. I see you. I see you. There's another way. I guess depending on where you're at in your relationship with your awareness of all this. Just to know that there is another way and this is said a lot, but your worth is never on the table for a negotiation.
We're the ones that put it on the table for others to have an opinion on it and to appraise us. And reclaiming that is one of the scariest and most empowering things you'll ever do, is detaching from the world's having an opinion on you, and your worth, and your faith, and your identity, as a human, as a follower of Christ, whatever it is you may be doing and that's the work.
And to be so picky on who you allow to have a say into your life and what you allow to have be said, be discerning. Not out of fear and instead to have an open but guarded heart in the process too. And I will say girlfriends, for me, friends are the best, if you're a female listening to this.
I mean, Alison, our reconnecting after all our years and our conversations have been medicine to my soul just to be able to. There was the most integrated conversation. So finding one or two people that you can really show up and not edit, is the beginning. Where you're not filtering and just saying the things, and getting seen and loved in that place is really a powerful and healing place to be.
Alison: I love that, and just that reminder it's quality not quantity, when it comes to those key friends, those unedited friendships. It doesn't have to be a ton; one is life changing.
Rebecca: You got it.
Alison: Rebecca, thank you so much just for being so honest and so real. I know we've barely scratched the surface. If you've been someone who just feels that tension in your body of, "I can get the job done."
It's a hard journey. It's a long journey to begin to release, and it doesn't mean you stop being productive. You're one of the most productive people I know. It means you relate to how you show up as a productive person in a different way. Tell us what's bringing out the best of you, right now?
Rebecca: I mean, some of this is cheesy like being instead of doing. Being with instead of doing for. My word of the year, or words of the year, slow and bold and slow. So slowing down and not overcommitting my schedule has been a beast to detangle, and then being bold in that place.
I think people, like I said, my friendship with you, my relationship with my family, my Sunday school, my neighbors, my mom friends. And, honestly, I've always valued this about me, but being around folks who have different views on things is a huge value of mine. I've had it from a young age, whether it's different faith, political, worldview, you name it, that brings out the best of me.
So that I don't get into my head or I'm always challenging my beliefs. So that either I know I need to rethink them or I feel more anchored in what I believe. So I can always want to be pursuing and refining, but I think that that's important.
And I, honestly, like many people I work with, I knew who I was supposed to be, and what I was supposed to value, and what I was supposed to do. And it's just taken me a while to figure out who I am, what I really love, what really matters.
"Out of the heart flows the well spring of life." Those desires of our heart that I squelched down to try and fit in. And, so, I really just think taking that time to be with people, books, TV shows, experiences. Live music is my love language right now, and that's where I go, "Okay, I like me, I connect with me, I'm proud."
When we walk away from people or experiences where we feel less than or smaller, it's amazing what we tolerate, Alison. It is amazing what we tolerate in the name of things that we've deemed good, but just stop tolerating. Just stop tolerating and speaking truth to BS, and speaking truth to BS with love.
Alison: I love that. What needs and desires are you working to protect?
Rebecca: I think there's something about getting older, but my needs and desires to be present with my family, with the clients that have invested their trust in me, and treasured friendships, my health, and my calendar. I am trying to create more space in my calendar, that's my word for 2023, is space. Space and pace, which is you know me, that's going to be an adventure.
Alison: Wait, you went from slow and bold this year, to space and pace next year?
Rebecca: That's the fruits of this year, yes, it's nice.
Alison: Interesting.
Rebecca: Yes, trying not to over commit because there are the big things I want to create and I want to do. And I realized I have lived outside of my margin and my capacity for so long. Being a high producer, just like many of the clients I work with, we don't know we're in crisis and we're overwhelmed till we're hanging off the cliff by a pinky.
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Rebecca: And even then we're just like, "Oh, my pinky is sore." Versus, "We're hanging off the cliff." So I don't want to be that way anymore, so I'm protecting. The full body sacrifice is not okay unless...
I mean, again, like I said, I'll jump in. If you're getting mugged, I'll jump in. If I know you and I'm there, I will jump in, that's a certain kind of full body sacrifice. But the day-to-day because of the grind of culture, and the shoulds, and the have-tos that aren't aligned with values, no. That take me away from the most important relationships, I am fighting for that.
Alison: I love that, and also because you are someone who's so whole body, all in. All the more reason the space and pace is needed to protect because you will be that person. And I've said it time, you will show up, I know you will. Therefore, you have to make sure you're protecting that space.
How can people find you, Rebecca, connect with you, your podcast?
Rebecca: Yes, wherever you love to listen to podcasts, you can subscribe to the Unburdened Leader. And if you listen and are impacted by an episode, I'd be honored for you to leave a review and a comment, I want to hear from you.
You can also follow me an Instagram @rebeccachingmft, or sign up for my weekly Unburdened Leader Email at www.rebeccaching.com.
Alison: Thank you so much for being here, you're the best.
Rebecca: Ah, it's been an honor my friend, I appreciate you.
You want to keep the peace at all costs. The problem is sometimes anger is warranted. Sometimes conflict is needed. What do you do when everything in you does not want to be the one to speak up?
On today's episode of the podcast, I am joined by my dear friend Rowena Day. This is a powerful conversation for anyone who has struggled with conflict, avoided anger, or stayed quiet to get along. The second half of this episode is a WHOLE WORD. Listen in for deep wisdom on how to come out of that protective peacekeeping shell and start using your voice. Do not miss the end, when Rowena describes what she's learning about finding her voice from parenting 4 young children.
Here's what we cover:
1. Why it's normal to talk to yourself and how to pay attention to that inner dialogue
2. The power of attunement-and why interrupting and fixing each other doesn't work
3. Why we learn to mute our voices
4. The power of generational messages
5. Why we push anger aside, especially as women
6. Why it's important for peacekeepers to make friends with anger
7. Rowena's experience of speaking up about toxic behavior she was witnessing
8. Blame shifting and scapegoating in faith communities
9. Embracing the wildness of your your soul
10. The double bind culture puts women in when it comes to using your voice
11. What we can learn from our children
Thanks to our sponsors:
- Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
- Download Abide Sleep and Pray Meditation and text my promo code BESTOFYOU to 22433 today to get 25% off!
Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Resources
- To learn more about the Fawn Response, the Window of Tolerance, the Empathy Trap and the Mirror of Truth referenced in this episode, check out The Best of You: Break Free From Painful Patterns, Mend Your Past, And Discover Your True Self in God, by Alison Cook
- To learn more about Parts, Internal Family Systems, Speaking on Behalf vs. From an emotion, and the C's of self-leadership referenced in this episode, check out my book with Kimberly Miller, Boundaries for Your Soul
- LTI: Emmaus communities
- Enneagram Information
- Keep Calm and Carry On WW2 poster
- Family Systems Theory
- Church Hurt and 4 Steps for Healing
- 3 Signs of Bad Church Leadership
- 5 Toxic Behaviors & How to Protect Yourself (including Blame Shifting and Scapegoating)
- Resources for support
Scriptures referenced:
- John 2:13-17 Jesus and Anger
- Luke 11:39 Jesus speaks to washing the outside of the cup vs. the inside
- Proverbs 25:15 on the power of gentleness
- Isaiah 9 Jesus as the Prince of Peace
- John 11:35 Jesus wept
- Psalm 18
Books, Music, and Video referenced:
- "The soul is like a wild animal-tough, resilient, savvy, self-sufficient and yet exceedingly shy. If we want to see a wild animal, the last thing we should do is to go crashing through the woods, shouting for the creature to come out. But if we are willing to walk quietly into the woods and sit silently for an hour or two at the base of a tree, the creature we are waiting for may well emerge, and out of the corner of an eye we will catch a glimpse of the precious wildness we seek." From Let Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer
- When the Heart Waits by Sue Monk Kidd
- "Lord our God, hear my prayer, the prayer of my heart. Bless the largeness inside me, no matter how I fear it." From The Book of Longings by Sue Monk Kidd
- Army of Spider Crabs Shed Their Shells, Blue Planet II Video
- Unwritten Lyrics, by Natasha Beddingfield
- Seeking God's Face devotional
- "Get thee up into a high mountain. Lift up thy voice with strength, lift it up, be not afraid." From Handel's Messiah
Transcript
Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Best of You podcast. I am grinning from ear to ear because I have a dear friend on the show with me today. Her name is Rowena she goes by Roe. She is a friend that I met I want to say 10 years ago, which feels crazy because it does not seem like that long. At a spiritual listening community that we were both a part of. We're going to get into that and talk more about that today.
We've stayed in touch. She is that rare blend, where we just connect on the deep and we connect on the light, and we find the same things funny, which is such a rare gift in a friend. We can go from Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Seas, to laughing beside ourselves. So I'm thrilled that she's on the podcast. We'll get more into Rowena's story today. Right now she's, primarily, parenting four beautiful children. What are their ages, Rowena?
Rowena: They're eight, six, three, and one.
Alison: So she's in the weeds of parenting, you are in it.
Rowena: Holy ground every day.
Alison: Yes, and that's another thing that... my kids are primarily out of the house now. They're 21 and 23 so we're on the opposite ends of the parenting spectrum. Which also makes it fun because we just bring a lot to each other. The other interesting thing about Rowena is you were the eighth of nine children growing up?
Rowena: Yes.
Alison: Which is amazing.
Rowena: Yes, I don't think there's any birth order studies for families of that size.
Alison: Yes, how many studies have we done on what it means to be the eighth children? I know what you mean.
Rowena: Yes, I haven't found that info out there yet, but I found it within myself.
Alison: Yes, and as we've talked, Rowena and I will just talk, we'll use parts language. We like to read a lot of the same stuff. We like to bring the spiritual component in, so I'm just super excited. I asked her to come on today to talk about peacekeeping parts.
The parts of us that want to manage perceptions. That want to manage everything through peacekeeping. And I know there's so many of you listening who will relate to that. Where we feel like the best way we can manage how we show up in the world, is to just stay really quiet.
Is just to not use our voices and make sure everybody else is getting along. We're going to talk about a lot of things, but that's our main focus. And with that, thank you for being here at Rowena. I know this stirred up a lot inside of you to agree to be here.
Rowena: It sure did. Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. It feels like labor, a weird labor of coming out, my voice having space. So it's exciting and it is just a powerful and nerve-wracking opportunity.
Alison: Well, that's what I said when I asked Rowena, because I just love talking to you so much, I wanted to talk to you on the podcast. And one of the things I love is you're not trying to forward yourself, again, to the point of this whole episode.
And, so, I had to ask so many questions like, "Do you want to do it?" There were so many conflicting parts inside of you. Which made me want you to come on even more because I just love how authentic you are, and how honest you are about things. You were like, "Well, parts of me doing, parts of me do not."
Rowena: Yes, I remember the day. You said you had some idea you wanted to talk to me about and I was like, "Oh." I had immediately felt those two different parts. The part that was really curious and then the other part that was trying to speak up, and make everybody else comply. That was like, "Whatever her idea is, let's just agree right here and now that we're not going to do anything that puts us out there publicly. We don't do that, that's not for us."
And all the other parts of me were about ready to be like, "Yes, definitely not. Terrible idea, let's not do that." And I remember closing the fridge and then hearing this other little, brave, voice being like, "Let's just be open to this idea, we're also curious about it."
And, so, it's weird to talk about yourself in this 'We' term. But we talk to ourselves all day long and, so, that's just a bit of my inner dialogue, that was happening on that day. And, so, then, when you told me the episode was going to be about and it was about this very peacekeeping part, that had tried to speak up and shut it down. I was even more intrigued because we would be talking about the very thing that I had been experiencing on the inside.
Alison: Yes, again, just a glimpse, that's what I love about Rowena. You're not a therapist, you haven't gone through the training, but you just have this self-awareness. You are, to me, the classic saying, "Still waters run deep." You are so thoughtful with your words and you pay such attention to your inner life.
So I want to start us off with how we met, and we first met at this Emmaus Community. It's run by a group out of New England called Leadership Transformations Inc. I'll link to it in the show notes.
I highly recommend these communities. They're quarterly retreats for ministry leaders, pastors, counselors, anybody who's interested in just setting aside time to grow spiritually really. And it's a specific way of growing spiritually that I just found so powerful, and really changed even how I do my own work as a counselor, that's where we met. And you can sign up for one year, and, again, it's four quarterly's retreats.
And then you have a reading to do in between each retreat. So it's a significant commitment, and we ended up both doing two years. You can do one year or two years. We did the full two years, and I found I needed the full two years.
I was really discerning things in my life, and it was retreat five where I got to some real clarity. And, so, I'm curious, Rowena, what led you to sign up for Emmaus and to do that two years of really focused spiritual listening?
Rowena: Yes, I found out about a one-day women's retreat that was focused on silence and solitude, and listening to yourself and to God. And I read the description, it was offered by LTI also, and I signed up for this one-day thing. I was like, "That sounds really awesome, I want to do that."
And, so, I went and you could also sign up for an hour spiritual of direction session as part of that retreat. And, so, I was a little bit nervous about that, but signed up. Probably balled my way through the whole spiritual direction session with Diana. But it was just a very structured, yet, very spacious way of listening to someone.
And, so, it was deeply profound to have the attunement of someone else. Who was not giving advice, not interrupting, not telling parts of their own story, or quoting Bible verses, or whatever. It was just a very holy, sacred listening. And I'd never really experienced anything like that before, and it just made me really hungry for more.
And, so, as we explored, in Emmaus together, we did the Enneagram back in the early days before it was really a big thing. And discovering that I am a type Seven, I identify most as that. And, so, I hunger for things that are satisfying. And, so, I found spiritual direction to be something that was really satisfying.
The ability to be heard, be seen, be known to another person, to myself, and to God, all within one sacred hour was just really powerful. And it really stirred up this desire in me to do more of that, and to experience more of that. And then eventually to get training to be a spiritual director, which I'm going to start next spring.
So I've been waiting for the right timing for all these years, and I'm really excited about accompanying other people, and journeying alongside them as they attune to themselves and to God. And I just think the inner world that we all have is so interesting, and fascinating, and so worth exploring. And so a type Seven, I love to travel and experience things outwardly. But I've realized, oh, there's so much traveling we can do inside our own selves.
Alison: I love it. So if you decide you'll come back, I want to do a whole episode on this idea of spiritual listening, spiritual direction. We haven't talked about it, yet, on the podcast. So for those of you who are listening, spiritual direction is a beautiful way to get support.
It's not therapy, but it is a structured way of, as you said, just someone who's trained to listen to you. As you also are inviting God to be part of that listening, so it's a guide. We should all have it, that that's my feeling.
It's just a beautiful, it's not new, it's actually an ancient practice that has started to grow again. People are starting to talk about it more, it's just beautiful. And I love how you described it, Rowena, and this is what we then both ended up doing.
So in these quarterly retreats, the spiritual listening community, you spend time listening to each other. Just as you said, each person has a certain amount of time, it's structured. I could go off on a huge tangent on that. That's why I'm going to bookmark it, and say let's do another episode just, literally, teaching people what that's about. Because for me it was transformative, just as you said.
You set a timer and you just share what's been on your heart, what's been on your soul, what's been on your mind, what you're struggling with. And in the group situation, the spiritual direction is one-on-one. But the group listening, there's a group of five or six people that listen and they don't try to fix you, and they don't give you advice, and they don't quote Bible verses at you. What they do is, maybe, repeat back to you, "I heard you say this."
Rowena: Mh-hmm.
Alison: And it's like, "Whoa." It's that mirror, and I talk about the mirror of truth in The Best of You. And I think it's chapter four where we need those people that hold up that mirror so we can begin to see ourselves as God sees us.
So I love how you just talked about that, and we've just continued to connect so much. I will say that it's supposed to be this very... there's a lot of solitude, there's a lot of quiet, you do all the spiritual listening.
At the meals, that's where Rowena and I, we clicked on all that. But, man, at the meals, we were just busting our guts laughing and everybody loved that. I mean, I think we also brought a little levity when it was appropriate to do so. But we connected on so many levels and I so appreciated you there.
All right, so I want to dive in a little bit because you talk about this peacekeeping part of you, and I want to hear a little bit more about your story. About when did you first learn to avoid conflict? When did you first learn that, essentially, you tell me, but it's like muting your voice. Keeping your voice very small was the best way to stay safe.
Rowena: Hmm, yes, so I think to look at that picture, it requires stepping back even further and looking at a much bigger picture of generations before me. And, so, my parents were both born in England and near the end of World War II. And a phrase that has come back, in full force in recent years, is the phrase "Keep calm and carry on."
And that was a phrase that originated in 1939 just before the war, anticipating the dark days ahead. And it was postered in and put in places that were going to be targeted by German bombers. And it was to boost morale, and there were two and a half millions of these posters displayed. And then a copy was discovered in 2000, and then it blew up after that. An original copy of the poster was discovered in a bookshop, and then that's when it of re-came out.
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Rowena: And I've been thinking a lot about that phrase and how that probably was a very helpful thing in that time, of significant trauma, for people in that time. And then I wonder if that message has stayed in the bodies of all the people since then.
This idea of keeping calm and carrying on, and how that can be a really powerful thing. But if that's the only thing we're doing and we're not able to pay attention to our anger, or our grief, or sadness, or fear, or disgust, any of these really hard emotions. If we're just always focusing on keeping calm and carrying on, then we are not addressing other things.
And, so, I don't think this phrase was ever spoken to me in my childhood. But I think, somehow, it lives on in the collective of our society. I think as a society we do not know how to be angry. We are very confused about what to do with anger. We know, cognitively, that anger is not all bad. But I've just wrestled a lot in my life, "Well, what does it look like to be angry? I'm so confused about this emotion."
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Rowena: And we know that Jesus's anger led Him. So anger can be dangerous, it can lead to harmful behavior, and it can also lead to justice because there are things we need to be outraged about. Things like violence, and greed, and racism, abuse of power, sex trafficking, the list could go on forever. Of things that we need to be angry about.
And, so, somehow, as I've been unpacking, I think just in the society and in the waters that we're in. It has not really been permissible for women, especially, to feel anger. And I think we sort of push it aside, or at least I did, and I didn't know how to express it. I didn't have the tools; I didn't have the knowledge.
I just knew that I didn't like the feeling in my body when other people were angry. I didn't like the feeling in my own body when I was angry. And I guess I learned, maybe, that my voice had the power, sometimes, to make people angry and therefore I did not feel comfortable with that power.
It could elicit anger and I want peace and harmony. Those are really important things to me, and joy. And, so, if my voice was, sometimes, the thing that was going to elicit anger, then, subconsciously, I kept my voice out of the picture.
Alison: Yes, I love that you just gave us the big brush strokes, the big paint brush strokes. I do want to add you grew up in Canada.
Rowena: Mh-hmm.
Alison: And I'm curious, you're younger than me. But my guess is your parents are, probably, since you're the eighth of nine children, our parents are of a similar generation. And I think that generation, what we were raised in, that keep calm carry on, really does embody how we were raised.
And it's not all bad, and I love how you're describing it, as there is a time and a place for that. And, especially, when you're going into - we've got to just all keep calm. But when that permeates down to the detriment of, "Oh, actually we need to bring some hard things to the surface." This is this season now, that there was a time for that.
But then there's also a time to, "We need to bring some of the hard things to the surface, so that we can honor and work through." And that means bringing up some conflict, bringing up some anger, bringing up some of these emotions, that actually need to be healed. There's also a time for that and you're making a really good point. That a lot of that message filtered all the way down.
Rowena: Yes, like what do you do when you're angry? How do you keep calm and carry on then?
Alison: As opposed to this idea of harmony or peace really being, it's not about denying the hard things, it's about bringing things to the surface.
When you think about harmony, I always think of the metaphor of an orchestra or a band, where every part needs to be able to use its voice in the appropriate way. It needs to be able to be played in harmony with the other instruments.
But if the drums stop drumming, or the flutes stop fluting, or the trumpets stop trumpeting, you don't actually have the full picture of what you could have. At the same time, if everybody is just yelling, and yammering, and playing, you have discord.
So harmony is hard work is what I'm getting at. Harmony isn't just, "We're going to all just sit here and pretend like everything's fine."
From Family Systems Theory, the goal of a healthy family is harmony. But what people don't understand is that harmony is like that orchestra. It's making sure each one of those parts is playing its role, and has its appropriate voice within the family.
Rowena: I benefited hugely from being one of the last of so many kids and really looked up to my older siblings. And there's such a profound love that we all share for each other.
But I think just in being one of the last ones and having so many of us. I spent maybe some of the time just doing a lot of observing of what other people were saying and feeling like, "Well I'm younger, who am I to know what I'm talking about here?"
I think it's only natural that if you're one of the younger kids and you've got lots of older ones, that you will defer to other people's opinions and defer your voice. And, so, a lot of it is reclaiming, "Well, what do I think? What do I feel and what do I think?"
Alison: Yes.
Rowena: And taking other people's voices into account, but not so much that I'm not listening to my own, also.
Alison: It makes sense that you would get lost in the shuffle a little bit. I mean, you're a mother of four now and you see, I'm sure, how hard it is to make sure each one of your children is getting that attunement, it's hard. I can't imagine doing it for nine people, I mean, I can't imagine.
Rowena: Yes.
Alison: It's hard for me with two.
Rowena: Right and the person on their own has all their many parts. And, so, you won't just have four kids, you have all the parts within each child.
Alison: Yes.
Rowena: And then you have all the ways that those are interacting with the parts of the other kids. And you just have so much happening and it's wild, and messy, and beautiful, all at the same time.
Alison: When did you begin to become aware that for you staying quiet, not using your voice, was a conditioned response. And that it wasn't necessarily the only way, and that maybe it was important to speak up?
Rowena: Yes, so I have really valued peace and harmony in my life and want to create, protect that. I don't want my body to feel so much discomfort that I'm outside my window of tolerance, and that I can be assertive in many moments.
But I think in moments when I fear that my very voice is the thing that is going to elicit anger. Then this is where the peacekeeping part goes into overdrive. And, so, I've been on a huge journey, recently the past year especially.
Our family was involved in a faith community for many years and there are lots of dear people, and memories, and things that we loved and enjoyed about being a part of it. And, yet, there was a growing feeling that something was not right and our bodies began to feel at first, and our minds kept trying to override the signals and say, "Everything is fine, just keep the peace, have grace."
And, yet, our bodies just kept getting more and more uncomfortable and the signals kept getting stronger to the point where we couldn't really ignore it. And, so, we had no choice but to become curious about what we were feeling.
And, so, I realized my body was saying, in some ways, "I don't feel like I have a voice here. I feel a bit stuck. I feel trapped, I feel powerless. I don't feel like I'm flourishing. This doesn't really feel like the way that it should be at church." And I was also getting ready to birth our fourth child. So I was going through these two kind of labors simultaneously, it was a really stressful time.
And, so, my husband and I just started to gather puzzle pieces and realized in dysfunctional families, there's one person's emotional needs that are at the center. And this is the person who has the highest need for constant attention and praise, and you can feed into that all day long.
And then anyone who wakes up to that reality and stops pouring into the center, and maybe tries to, gently, bring some awareness, there's blame shifting that occurs. And the problem is deflected onto the people who are trying to say something, and then you become scapegoated. So it's a very challenging dynamic, to say the least.
So I would say that there was an incongruence that we witnessed between what the authority figure was presenting publicly, and the lived experience that we had behind the scenes that didn't match. Jesus says it like, "You wash the outside of the cup but you're ignoring the inside."
And that's what we were seeing and experiencing. There's this carefully curated and crafted image and, yet, we're not really seeing the love and the abundant life modeled.
And we also saw that there was an ongoing pattern of leaders, who had gotten close proximity, being deeply wounded and leaving, and then we became one of them. And, so, the incongruence was profoundly disorienting. And your article on the empathy trap was really powerful for us. In understanding that loyalty and empathy can't run the show alone, and that we also need courage.
And, so, loyalty and submission, and deference to religious leaders and authorities should not be given automatically, simply, because of their position and training. We need to be looking at the character and the fruit in people's lives, and not just their words.
And, so, the essence of Jesus's loving others well. And, so, love should be the primary measurement for how well things are going. Basically, we realized we all have wounds and we need to tend to our own, and take responsibility for them. But if we don't they're going to be infected and they're going to leave a legacy of harm.
So we decided that we wanted to say yes to something else. We wanted to say yes to a community where we felt like our voices would be heard. Where we could bring gentle correction from time to time, if even though we're not the type of people who are constantly criticizing.
But if we don't have any space to bring ourselves, then we were feeling very stifled. And, so, we had to do the very thing that terrified me, using my voice, knowing that it would elicit anger. And that was very scary for my body, my nervous system.
Alison: Thank you for sharing. I know how hard this is. I think so many people can understand what you're describing. And I love how you said it in the context, again, this family system, church is a family and when somebody, especially somebody in authority, someone in power, so in a family, it's a parent.
In a church it's somebody in leadership, a pastor, somebody in leadership is sucking all of the energy toward themselves. This is the powering-over P, they're controlling the narrative. They're controlling and silencing others as a result.
So you combine that with your own, "I don't speak up, I am a peacekeeper." And, oh, that is hard. And, yet, I think of the Proverbs, listening to you, that says, "A gentle word breaks bone."
It's the gentleness of, "I don't want to be the one to do this, but I cannot not see what I'm seeing." And, so, I just want to name those things. This was for you, there was no interest or your husband, I mean, I know him, too, just gentle people all the way through.
we're witnessing this dynamic that is not healthy for us, not healthy for the community, and we've got to be the ones to use our voices here. And, as you just said, sometimes, you use your voice and it's like, "Oh, this is great."
People are like, "Oh, we're so glad, thank you. It was so great to hear from you, thanks for sharing." It was not going to be that. It was not going to be that.
Rowena: No it was not.
Alison: It was going to be the thing you feared and you knew it. It was going to be, "We don't want your voice here, this is going to create discord." You knew that, so it was the very thing you feared the most, and I just, again, that word courage.
That word courage to speak up just really speaks.
Rowena: Yes, and we know that everyone has a true self.
Alison: Yes.
Rowena: Ye, we really believe that. But we can all get lost from our poor true self that God has given us, and wander away and be just caught in a lot of self-deception about who we really are. And, so, it requires a lot of awareness of what are these protective parts of us that are so overactive, that are hiding something within us because of wounds.
And we all have the responsibility to travel within and figure out what those wounds are, and name them, and bring back the puzzle pieces within ourselves, and experience healing. But if we're not, and we're not willing to listen when people are saying, "Hey, I think you're going off track here." It's scary.
Alison: Yes, it is. It's that self-awareness. And I love what you're saying, again, this list of seven Ps, none of them in and of themselves are a problem if we are aware of them, even that powering over one. Even that one where that's the person that's taking control of the narrative, and trying to be in charge, and make sure they're the ones, no one else has a voice.
Well, that awareness of, "I am someone that can do that. I am someone that can bully others. I am someone that can be that." You can imagine raising a kid like that and it's like, "How do you?" It's that self-awareness.
This is cliché, but you think about it a little bit sometimes in Enneagram terms, we need to do a whole episode on the Enneagram. But there's a type, the Enneagram Eight that is the power. They want the power.
Rowena: Mh-hmm.
Alison: We need powerful leaders. We need people who step up into the spotlight. That is not in and of itself a bad thing.
But if there's not the self-awareness of the dark side of that, just as with any of these, it can get really toxic.
Break
Rowena: I've had to reclaim my understanding of power and authority and get more comfortable with those terms, and not see those as all bad. Like not seeing anger as all bad, not seeing power as all bad, and reclaiming the good parts of those. Those are good things when they're used well.
And, so, that has been healing in and of itself, to not view power as bad or anger as bad. So, yes, in terms of how we began to grow and change in, bravely, speaking up. I was surprised at the journey that it would take me on inwardly and learning more about my own wounds, and my own self. And, basically, it set a fire to all these old habits and ways of being because I was using my voice knowing that it would elicit anger.
And, so, that set a fire to unhealthy ways of relating to others, in a good way, but in a very challenging and deeply uncomfortable way. So I didn't know that the Fawn response was a thing. And it has been eye-opening to discover that that is a response of the body, basically, it's a peacekeeping response.
You're trying to keep the peace and just manage the situation, by not eliciting people's anger and not being disruptive. And those are things that my type Seven body does not want to do. I want to experience joy.
And, so, it has been basically setting a fire to that Fawn response to fearing anger. And also realizing the disconnect between my mind and my body, and realizing, "Oh, I have been just stuck in my head for a lot of my life and my body has so much wisdom to share with me."
And in the past I think I would view anxiety, or anger, or rage, or disgust, all of those things, or fear and try to just get them far away from me. And now I feel like I've alkalinized those emotions so much more, and I can pay attention to my body and understand that it is trying to tell me something. And if I can just get curious about it and listen that there are things that my body is trying to tell me to help me.
And, so, anxiety doesn't need to be something that I fear anymore. And anger doesn't be need to be something that I fear and these can be really powerful things if I can get curious about them. And I think this is part of why Internal Family Systems has been such a powerful tool is because it helps distance yourself from these parts of you. Because when they take over it feels like it's all of you.
And you feel like, "Well, I'm just drowning in anger or drowning in anxiety." And really when you can realize, "Oh, this is one part of me." Then you can step back from it and differentiate from it a bit more, and that has been such a helpful tool. Peace, and harmony, and avoiding pain cannot be my primary guiding values.
Alison: Mh-hmm.
Rowena: And if they are then it's creating a false peace and harmony. And, so, having peace and harmony are good things, but they need to be also in tandem with courage and listening to angry parts of ourselves, and anxious parts of ourselves, and fearful parts of ourselves.
And not just trying to sweep them under the rug or put them in a jail within us and say, "You can't come out it's not safe." And, so, I've really been learning to bless those parts of myself and say, "Oh, anger is, and you've got good things to tell me and I thought you were all bad."
And, so, I had this moment where I felt like all my other parts were able to welcome anger back in. And be like, "We see you, we value you. You actually put us in that situation." And now I know, especially, from the work that you say, that phrase, "We speak on behalf of our anger not from it."
And that has been the distinction that I've been trying to find for so long. I think journaling about anger has been a common theme for eight years of parenting. Because I've been like, "God, please show me how to be angry." This is what kids do, they know how to press your triggers and it's not their fault. That is a window into something within ourselves. Like, "Why is this a trigger for me?"
And, so, yes, I've been on that journey for so long and so I feel like I've had some breakthrough moments. Where I've been able to recognize anger as good and I can bless it and honor it, and I can steer it in a way that I'm not so afraid of it. That it's going to be destructive or take me over or hurt other people.
Alison: It's like a paradox. So the peacekeeper parts of us think anger is the enemy. Avoid it at all costs because anger is conflict, anger is discord, anger is all the things that peacekeeping parts of us just cannot stand.
And what I'm hearing you say, the paradox is, as you've made peace with your own anger, and even welcomed, and allowed anger a seat at the table, there is more peace. More actual peace because we don't want to make peace.
You gave a great list of things, at the beginning about, of all the things we should be angry about. We don't want to make peace with certain things. We don't want to make peace with these terrible things, atrocities, that are going on in our world. We don't want to make peace with toxic leadership. We don't want to make peace.
And, so, we have to make peace with our own anger, which is our cue that something is awry. And it does turn this idea of what is peace" And even thinking about Jesus, "I'm the prince of peace."
And then you think about, "Yes." And if we look at the whole life of Jesus there were some really hard things in it, and there was anger in it, and there was even some harsh words for folks in it, and He didn't shy away from conflict at all. And, yet, He was-
Rowena: "A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." And He experienced anger. The shortest famous verse in the Bible, "Jesus wept." He experienced intense grief. He had a panic attack in the Garden of Gethsemane, and experienced intense anxiety like we have never experienced.
And, so, Jesus shows us that He felt the full range of human emotion, and I'm really thankful for that. And I find that the Psalms have been a powerful way of connecting emotions and bringing them to God. And the Psalms are a way that God is just always trying to reveal to us, that He keeps us safe, seen, soothed, and secure.
Alison: Yes, even when the circumstances of our life require us to enter into discomfort, that's the paradox.
Rowena: Yes.
Alison: That internally we can experience that experience of being seen, soothed, safe, and secure even when we have to walk into a really hard situation that challenges us. What I love about what you're doing here, Rowena, is the event was, "I've got to speak up about something I'm seeing. It's really hard, I don't like it."
But then you immediately got yourself into a safer situation.
You got yourself to where you needed to be, and then, all of a sudden, guess what happens, you are the one that's growing. That's what these things do, these invitations to courage. And I just love how you're describing this process of really having to examine a lot of ways, that you've showed up in the world. So tell me a little bit more about some of those breakthrough moments.
Rowena: Yes, so one of the quotes that I love of Parker Palmers. He says that, "The soul is like a wild animal—tough, resilient, savvy, self-sufficient and yet exceedingly shy. If we want to see a wild animal, the last thing we should do is to go crashing through the woods, shouting for the creature to come out. But if we are willing to walk quietly into the woods and sit silently for an hour or two at the base of a tree, the creature we are waiting for may well emerge, and out of the corner of an eye we will catch a glimpse of the precious wildness we seek."
And, so, I think this is the nature of human beings, are the nature is that we want to hide. And we often think that God is the one hiding and we are the ones trying to find Him, when all along it's we are hiding and He's out there in the open.
And I think Henri Nouwen is the one who says that beautifully in a quote, I'm just paraphrasing it. And, so, it was sort of doing that very thing of sitting quietly in the woods, with the wild animal that my soul is, and waiting for it to reveal parts of itself that were wanting to be seen, and wanting to hide all at the same time.
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Rowena: And I think of Sue Monk Kidd, in her book When the Heart Waits, and she says, "Crisis can be holy beginnings, a coming alive." So we get to take these inward journeys where we have these holy beginnings.
And we can travel inward and discover what are the places within us that are wanting to hide and why? And how can we draw them out, and experience greater healing, and have well-ordered souls, and we can be fully alive. It's such a travesty to live in this world and be hiding and feel like you're not fully alive.
And, so, while I don't have the power to change outer circumstances, that's not within my realm of responsibility. I have been surprised at how much ownership of things within me that I have needed to take.
And that healing can come by gathering exiled parts of myself that have been scattered and bringing them back together. And it's this mysterious journey where God is at work and we are participating in the process somehow. And it's slow, very slow, and it is deep and lasting.
And, so, one of my big breakthrough moments was when we were watching this episode of Blue Planet with the kids, and there was a section on these crabs. And they are usually solitary creatures who gather together by the hundreds of thousands.
And they don't gather together to reproduce or to feed, they gather together to molt. And it's because they've become too big for the exoskeletons that they're in, and they need to climb out of those shells, and they're super vulnerable. They're soft, their limbs are all wonky, they can't move. So they're extremely vulnerable to the predators. So they gather together to protect each other in these large numbers.
And as I'm watching this with our kids, I'm really moved by it and I'm like, "Wow." I feel like that is what has been happening to me. I have been on this journey of climbing out of my own crab shell and expanding and leaving these old exoskeletons behind. And just dying to old ways of being, and birthing new ways of relating to people, and being able to use my voice instead of keeping it silent, and small, and using the fawn response.
And I've really loved reading so many of Sue Monk Kidd books. And a lot of the themes in her novels are of women bending the ear to the longing in their soul and using their voice. And one of them has this beautiful prayer that's like "Bless the largeness that is within me."
And that prayer really stood out to me, and I think it probably does for every woman and every everybody. That goes in hand in hand with this idea of us expanding and needing to come out of these exoskeletons that we're in, and to leave them behind.
It's awkward for a time and it's uncomfortable, but then we slowly can build new ways of being and we probably undergo so many.
Or if we're paying attention, we can undergo lots of these molts in the course of our lifetime. And that is how we can grow closer and closer to God and to who He has made us to be.
Alison: That's beautiful. That metaphor you had sent me of the crab shells was just so powerful. Because it is these protectors, even these peacemaking protectors, that can feel like they're good Christian parts of us. They're still protecting us. They still are that hard shell.
And, so, when we come out of them and that vulnerability of being seen, of using our voices, it is that it captures that tenderness of that. And, yet, it is part of that process of leaving behind the old and moving into new ways of being truly safe.
Which isn't denying the hard things or keeping the hard things; "Just keep calm, carry on." It's actually coming out and acknowledging the dangers, and being aware of the landmines, and also knowing how to resource ourselves, get ourselves what we need.
Rowena: So other breakthrough moments occurred a lot while reading this Anglican Devotional, that I've been going through for a couple of years called Seeking God's Face. And it's just a beautiful way that it lays out short passages of Scripture.
And this one, in particular, was very meaningful to me from Psalm 18. And it said, "In my distress, I called out to the Lord. I cried to my God for help from his temple, he heard my voice. My cry came before him into his ears. He reached down from on high and took hold of me. He drew me out of deep waters."
And I could probably quote so many of the psalms that have been powerful, but that has been particularly meaningful to really believe and know that God hears my voice, and that He wants it to come out of hiding.
And then I was listening to the Messiah, the other day, and there's this one stanza that was really sticking out to me also. It was like my ears perked up and it's basically saying, "Get thee up into a high mountain. Lift up thy voice with strength, lift it up, be not afraid." And it's just amazing when things hit you in the way that you exactly need to hear it.
And, so, yes, just by coming on this podcast I feel like I'm practicing this. I'm practicing lifting up my voice with strength and being not afraid. And it feels really good to have all of these puzzle pieces come together and feel like, "Oh, I am coming out of hiding and I'm coming out of my crab shell."
Alison: I just, I want to sit there, for a second, and play that clip for all of you who are listening right now that just needed to hear that. "Lift up your voice. Lift up your voice before the Lord." And we need your voice. I have been blessed by your voice, Rowena, which is why I wanted you to come on here because I know what a blessing your voice is. So thank you for that word.
I am so grateful for just the encouragement, to me and to so many. I want to ask you being a mom of four, how do you notice this peacekeeping part helps you? How do you need to set gentle boundaries with it sometimes? How does this come into your parenting?
Rowena: Yes, so this is what's also been really redemptive in it and healing, is that instead of seeing this peacekeeping part as all bad. I can recognize and bless the parts of it that have been good, and that is trying to help me, and I can assign it new, more productive roles for me.
So I think the peacekeeping part of me has kept such a tight guard on my voice because it knows that there is value in what I have to say. And my mind may not have always known that. But this protective part is trying to protect something because there is something of value in there.
And, so, I think that has been an important realization, and I don't want it to be on overdrive. But I want to bless an honor that it wants to keep me safe. It's the part of me that wants to help me think before I speak.
Alison: What you're saying is so interesting. I've never thought about it that way., but it's actually protecting a treasure.
Rowena: Yes.
Alison: So it's not it's not trying to keep you silenced. It's actually almost saying, "Your voice is powerful, therefore, we have to be careful with it." That's fascinating.
Rowena: Yes, and then because I have feared power then it has made me. I don't know, "Can I trust myself to use my voice in good ways." The tongue is a fire and it can be very destructive. But, also, our voice can be so tightly guarded, like a jailkeeper is in front of it. And, so, I'm trying to give this peacekeeping part of me a new role, that it is the guardian of my voice and the gatekeeper in a wise, shrewd way.
And, so, it helps me think before I speak. It helps me discern if it is wise to speak or if boundaries need to be set with action instead. So it's like bringing that piece of the orchestra into harmony again.
And saying, "You have a valuable role to play here and we've got to change the music that you're playing. But we're going to give you this new music, and it's going to be much more beautiful. If you can take up this really helpful, protective role."
And if my core self can lead with all those beautiful see words of IFS, like courage, curiosity, compassion, confidence, creativity, clarity, calm, and connectedness. If my true self can lead this peacekeeping part of me in that way, then I think that's where the real power is going to be led by the Holy Spirit.
And, so, yes, I'm trying to break free from the shackles of other people's anger, and uncomfortability, and not actively trying to elicit it, but using my voice when it's necessary.
Alison: Yes, and one of the things you touch on is when folks have a very strong bend toward peacekeeping. What can happen is when we do use our voices that we have to get so far down the anger spectrum that it does come out. It can, right?
Rowena: Yes.
Alison: It can come out angrily. It can come out because we've suppressed and then it gushes out. And, so, with those of you who see yourself as peacekeepers, it's that learning that nuanced voice of anger that you talked about earlier. Speaking on behalf of, "Man, I am feeling."
And if we don't name that, and if we don't give ourselves permission to feel that, and speak on behalf of that anger it will come out too big. Because we flip into fight mode once we are just done. And especially when we're with our safe people, which often are our kids and our families. Because we know they're not going to leave us, and that's just human.
And, so, I mean, that's just a visceral, that's primal, that's not a conscious choice. It's just, "Well, if I lose it here, I know that..." And, so, learning, again, taking it back to that theme of what you've been saying. We have to make peace with anger, make peace with the things that we're feeling. So that we can speak on behalf of those from that calm place inside versus that activated place inside.
Rowena: Yes, and I also want to speak to the double bind that culture puts women into. Of, "If you use your voice, then you know you're either too sensitive or you're too assertive." And, so, then, I feel like I've experienced that. And so it's left me with like, "Well, how do I use my voice then." Because I don't like being blamed of either perspective of being overly sensitive or overly assertive.
And, so, it's breaking free from that double bind, and owning my voice, and knowing what it is saying deep in my gut. And then once the blockages are gone it can freely wind its way out of my gut, where I know that it lives, and through my lips, and from my tongue and into the world.
And, so, it's that reconnecting with my body, too, that is part of it. Actively feeling, "Okay, I feel like my voice lives in my gut, and it wants to come out of my lips." Sort of reconnecting all of these parts inwardly, and the mind to the body has been really powerful for me.
Alison: That's beautiful, Rowena. That's just beautiful. I've been privy to a lot of this journey, as your friend, and just to hear you articulate it, it's just so powerful and so beautiful. I want to ask you, what would you say to that young, little girl, eighth of nine children. Just in light of everything you've been learning, especially, these last few years. What would you want to say to her now?
Rowena: I think I would say, "You are not responsible for other people's anger." And I would break that connection between the use of the voice and anger. And I would say, "Allow room for your own anger. Don't silence it and be curious about it and don't let it come up sideways, either but speak on behalf of it."
I would say, "Trust your voice and stay connected to your body." Those would be the main things that I do tell my younger self.
Alison: And what would you say to other women, who are listening right now, who struggle with using their voice?
Rowena: Yes, I would say get curious about what blockages are in the way. Because once you can remove the blockages, then it can flow again and it can come out. And, so, I get curious about what are these protective parts trying to.
In what ways are being overly protective and why, and then take that journey inward to listen to all of your parts. And do this with support and befriend painful emotions like anger, and fear, and anxiety, all those things. And realize that your body is trying to send you good messages if you would get curious and have compassion for yourself as you do it.
And then honor and bless those parts of you and realize the ways that they are trying to help and to not see them as all bad, and that that can really set free a lot of things. And then I would I would say, "Once you go through all that work, lift up your voice with strength. Lift it up and be not afraid."
Alison: That's beautiful. Rowena, thank you so much. As I close every episode, I ask all of my guests, what or who is bringing out the best of you right now?
Rowena: So I think that I would have to go through all four of my kids, just briefly. But our one-year-old, I think we have so much to learn from babies. We just think that we need to teach them so many things, but they have so much to teach us. And, so, our one-year-old is just such a joy and delight, and he contributes zero productivity to our household. But we just delight because he exists.
Alison: That's awesome.
Rowena: And, so, I feel like God is always reminding me of that. Like, "This is how I see you. You are a delight just by existing, just by being, and I don't expect you to produce and perform, do all these things. Babies are uninhibited from all of these ways of being that we've adopted as older people.
And, so, they're just beautiful to witness the presence that they have, and the joy. Our one-year-old, right now, is going through all of these language acquisition. And, so, he's just babbling and he's so uninhibited with his voice that it's just really beautiful, it's inspiring to me.
Alison: That's great.
Rowena: Like you don't care that you're just saying, "Higgledy, gibody." words right now and, so, I love that.
And then our three-year-old, I feel like this is really holy ground because he really knows how to let his anger flow. And, so, he's been teaching me a lot, and he'll just be able to name like, "I'm so angry." And I'm just like, "Wow, you just know how to name it."
It just feels like a very tender spot where I'm really trying to be a wise parent and not shut it down. But try to help him have healthy outlet for it, and it is very challenging, too. But I think this inner work that I'm doing in myself, hopefully, is going to translate to that over time.
It feels like I'm that wobbly crab at the moment with that. But I'm hopeful that I can nourish his anger in healthy ways, if that makes sense. And then our six-year-old is just so curious and always inspires me with just his curiosity about the world and his playfulness.
And then our eight-year-old daughter, right now seems to really lack this peacekeeping to please and fawn part. So I've just been like, "Oh, cool." Trying to bless that part of her that is really strong, and speaks her mind, and also she has a huge laugh, and it's super silly. And, so, she just brings a lot of hilarity to our household.
And then I have to say for my husband, too, he is just such a safe person and accepts all big emotions. And I can say to him like, "I felt angry when you did such and such." And he can listen and not be defensive, and we can have regular rupture and repair cycles. And there's just a lot of mutual trust and respect with him, and I just am really thankful for who he is.
Alison: I love it. I love how you flipped that to what you are learning from each of your kids. That's beautiful perspective there, that the things that could also drive us crazy, about our kids, are the very things that we probably need to learn, and I think that's just incredible perspective. What needs and desires are you working to protect?
Rowena: So I think beauty is something that I am working to protect. Whether it's creating pottery, or listening to beautiful music, or singing and dancing in my kitchen, just noticing. I've had to, because there's been so much happening inwardly, I've really been needing to look at open space.
And, so, I've just found myself being so much more attentive to what the sky is each day and noticing the clouds, and really looking at it because it's just like the open space. I can't get to the ocean as much as I would like, so the sky is an incredible open, vast, expanse that really helps settle my nervous system, too.
And then reading, I just have been really interested in reading lots of different books. And that has been just something that I want to hear other people's perspectives, and take them in, and just turn things over, and think through things.
And, so, John and I went on a date last night and we heard this song playing in the restaurant that was from our high school days. And it was a Natasha Bedingfield song, the song Unwritten and the words were so [Inaudible 00:56:40] to me. It was like my ears perked up.
So she has these words that are;
"Release your inhibitions
Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins
The rest is still unwritten"
Alison: Beautiful.
Rowena: And I hadn't heard that song in decades and it just came back. And, so, the next morning, I'm driving our kids to school, we've got six car seats in the back and I'm blasting this song, and singing and dancing in the car. I get to this red light, and I look over and there's this bus stop filled with people, and this one guy is just looking at me and laughing. And, so instead of breaking eye contact, I just kept looking at him, and I kept singing and dancing, and he started to move too.
Alison: That's amazing, I love it.
Rowena: It was so funny, it just really made my day.
Alison: I love it, that is a perfect image. I just am so grateful for you. Thank you so much for your time today, just for all of your wisdom, and your nuggets. And I just couldn't be more grateful for all that you had to share with us today, thanks for being here.
Rowena: Yes, thank you, Alison. You've been such an important part of my journey.
Today's episode of The Best of You Podcast is in honor of the Thanksgiving holiday, and the holiday season in general. If you're dealing with a mixture of emotions today, this episode is for you. Holidays are complicated, and in today's episode, I walk you through how to honor what's hard, even as you give thanks for what's good.
We'll discuss:
1. Why it's normal for mixed emotions to show up on a holiday
2. How old ways of managing kick in-and leave us exhausted
3. How to take brave steps to honor vs. manage hard emotions
4. The myth of the perfect family, the perfect holiday, or the perfect experience of gratitude
5. What we can learn from 5 characters in my favorite children's book
Thanks to our sponsors:
- Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
- This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp -Go to www.betterhelp.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 10% off your first month!
Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Resources
- Ramona Quimby, Age 8, by Beverly Cleary
- Parables as Stories
- The Best of You: Break Free From Painful Patterns, Mend Your Past, And Discover Your True Self in God, by Alison Cook
- Boundaries for Your Soul, by Alison Cook
- Resources for support
Transcript
Alison: Hey everyone. Happy Thanksgiving and welcome to this special episode of The Best of You Podcast in honor of the Thanksgiving holiday and really the entire holiday season. I've thought about this episode for a while, and I really wanted to speak directly to you today because I think holidays bring up such a myriad of emotions.
Holidays are complicated, and I wanted to address all that you might be experiencing on this day. I also wanted to tell a story, a bit of a parable. It's not my story, it's written by another author, but it's a story that illustrates some of the hard, some of the good, some of the messy, and some of the grace of a day like today. Jesus told stories to illustrate the points that He wanted to make. He told stories to illustrate deeper truths.
And, so, today I'm going to share a story with you. It's not from the Bible. It's one of my favorites from childhood, and I appreciate your indulging me as I think about what stories have meant something to me on a day like Thanksgiving.
But before we get there, just some thoughts for all of you who are listening. Not just today on Thanksgiving, but all of you who are anticipating the holidays with a mixture of emotions. Parts of us get excited this time of year, parts of us get excited about the holidays.
It might mean time off work. It might mean spending time with people you love that you don't get to see very often. We want to feel the joy that a day like Thanksgiving symbolizes.
It symbolizes the hope of a happy family gathering, of a celebration, of the many blessings we've received. It symbolizes this idea of contentment, gratitude, and joy as we pause to recognize and celebrate the good things God has given us. The good things that are in our lives.
And it's important to do this. It's a beautiful, hopeful, day that encourages us to pause and pay attention. To notice. But here's the problem, as we pause to notice the good things, on a day like today, we often also notice what's hard. It's just the way we are designed. With every joy that we recognize, there's almost always a sorrow.
And if you're feeling a mixture of emotions on a day like today, I just want you to know you're not alone. In fact, you're incredibly normal. So there are several ways that a day like Thanksgiving can take us off track. Cannot be that day we imagined or hoped it would be in our mind.
First of all, it can end up being a day of stress, if we're not careful. The day can end up being a flurry of activity. As we move into those perfecting, pleasing, performing, producing modes we've been talking about in this series.
Those parts of us that try to get all the things together that tense our bodies. Trying to make everything perfect, everybody happy, everything beautiful, and we haven't even gotten to the mayhem that can be Christmas. Thanksgiving can end up being a day where there is a lot of stress. As we work over time to put the day together.
Sometimes we end up at the end of the day exhausted and spent, and not really feeling all that joy and gratitude that we had hoped to experience. For many of us, another reason the day can be hard, is that for many of us pausing to notice the gratitude also means noticing hard emotions.
For example, some of you have had to think, really hard, about, "Who do I spend this day with?"
Maybe your family lives far away and you can't get to them.
Maybe your family is complicated and spending a lot of time with them is hard for you.
Maybe you're estranged from a family member, maybe even your own parent or your own child.
Maybe this day brings up memories of a beloved friend or family member, who is no longer with us. The day is complicated.
I don't know anyone who doesn't experience a myriad of emotions, when we arrive at this morning of Thanksgiving. Gratitude is complicated. It's not the absence of what's hard. It's not the absence of grief. It's not the absence of grit of the reality that, sometimes, we're just getting by.
And, so, I want to honor that complexity in this episode today. I want to honor the different emotions you might be feeling. The emotions that you might not be able to name at your Thanksgiving table later today.
There might be some anxiety or worry that is present with you. There might be sadness, grief, longing. There might be some loneliness. You might be alone today. You might be struggling financially and can't afford the type of meal or celebration you wish you could provide. You might be sitting at a table full of people, and still feeling unseen or invisible.
You might be sitting at a table, where the absence of someone you love or someone you've had to move away from brings up painful memories for you. You might be working so hard today, for everybody else, that by the end of the day you're exhausted and even a touch resentful.
All of these emotions are welcome, and I don't want you to sideline any one of them. Instead, I want you to pause, right now, as you're listening, wherever you are, and notice each of these emotions. Whichever ones are present for you, and give thanks for every single one of them.
I know that sounds crazy but I mean it. On this day of Thanksgiving, I want you to give thanks even for those hard emotions. They're there for a reason. And as you notice even the hard emotions and give thanks for them.
I want you to check in with yourself and notice; "How can I care for myself in this specific feeling I'm having?" This is how we move into authentic gratitude, and it's how we move toward authentic connection.
Instead of sidelining what we really feel in order to manage the perceptions of other people. We start to pay attention to these emotions. We start to give thanks for them, and we start to get more connected.
As you give thanks for these emotions you are feeling, invite God to be present there with you. Let Him know that you see the angst, the worry, the fear, or the sadness, and guess what God sees how you feel too. You're no longer alone with those feelings.
And then turn your attention toward how you will be tempted to manage throughout this day. How will a part of you try to please others?
How will a part of you work to keep the peace?
How will your inner perfectionist step in and try to take over?
How will you try to cover over some of this pain?
For those of you who are peacekeepers. Your body may go tense as you anticipate all of the ways conflict will surface, and work overtime, trying to make sure to ward off any possibility of it.
You'll work to direct conversation, redirect conversation, explain away somebody's inappropriate comment. You'll work to protect your sister from your parents. Your father from your mother. Your mother from your father. You'll revert back into that younger version of you that didn't know any other way.
For those of you who perform, or please, or produce, you may be tempted to work overtime to make sure everyone else is happy. Inside you may be tired, but you'll ignore that. You'll shove it aside, and by the end of the day you'll feel completely out of gas and running on empty.
For those of you who are grieving, you don't know what to do. Grief can be so painful to face, especially, at the holidays when you feel like you shouldn't feel that way. Holidays are complicated, and I want you to give yourself permission in this moment. You do not have to hide your pain. Hide what's hard to go through the motions.
Again, pause, take a minute, and give thanks for these parts of you that have worked so hard in the past to manage these hard emotions. And then ask yourself, what if it's not my job, primarily, to take care of everybody else today?
What if it's also my job, just as importantly, to take good care of myself?
What is the anxious, worried, sad, grieving, lonely, or weary part of me need on this day?
Take a moment and connect to that feeling inside. Imagine an inner table, an inner Thanksgiving gathering inside your own soul. And what if you could create a space for that hard feeling on this day? And what if God wants to be with you there too?
What is something you can do for yourself on this day, to honor this feeling?
You don't have to let your sadness, your worry, or your loneliness take you over. But as you notice what you feel and name it, you can care for yourself in a specific, special, only-you-can-quite-know-exactly-how way.
Maybe it's music, maybe it's nature, maybe it's movement. Maybe it's telling a friend that you are struggling. But as you honor what you feel and create a place for all those different emotions. You, paradoxically, also set gentle boundaries with them. You show up with more capacity. You show up more authentically. You show up holding what's hard and holding the gratitude, one in each of your hands.
Holidays are messy. Family is messy. And when I think about the holidays like today, I think about that old sage, Ramona Quimby. Brought to life by the wonderful author, Beverly Cleary.
I loved these books when I was a kid. I devoured them, read every single one multiple times, all the time. And as an adult, several moments from those books have stayed with me.
There's something Beverly Cleary did in capturing some of the angst, even the depression, even the melancholy. Even the fear of being a kid, and she brought to life these feelings.
In ways that made them safe for so many of us to feel, in an era when we didn't really talk about those feelings.
And, so, those books became a place for me to honor those feelings all of us have. That many of us didn't have a place to bring to our family gathering. And while so much of what you might be feeling, on this day, relates to your present circumstances.
The way that you cope with those feelings, often, goes all the way back to the way you learned to cope as a child. The way you learned to stuff, or to numb, or to speak out too, harshly, or to set your own feelings aside.
And, so, for you, today, I offer you this parable, this story. These characters that are so beloved, so well-known, that are playful and light. But also represent some of the ways we can feel on this day. And some of the ways we might hold both what's hard and what's good, together, side by side.
***
All right, so if you're not familiar with the Quimby Family, brought to Life by the amazing Beverly Cleary. In a series of books that focus on Ramona. I want to give you an overview of some of the key characters. As you listen, think about who you resonate with or who you relate to in this story.
There's Mrs. Quimby, who is the stalwart holding the family together. The family struggles financially. She's got a job. She's always worried about money. She's always trying to keep the girls together.
She can be a little bit stern, and she's focused on getting things done. Keeping everybody together, getting the rooms clean, getting the chores done. She loves her family, but she's definitely, sort of, that stalwart, trying to keep the train moving.
Then there's Mr. Quimby who is loving and kind. He's also a little anxious, again, that's my 2022 read on his character. He doesn't like his job, initially, as a grocery store checkout clerk. So he leaves it to go back to school. He later gets a different job, which he then gets laid off.
There's a lot of angst around Mr. Quimby. He even takes up smoking at one point, in one book, and Ramona's really worried about him and always trying to get him to stop smoking. There's the melancholy, sort of, angst around this character of Mr. Quimby, and he's also kind and loves his family.
Then there's the older sister Beezus, and Beezus we see through the eyes of Ramona, is a little bit self-absorbed. She is, sometimes, cranky. She loves her family, but would really rather be with her friends or at her own party than with the family oftentimes, and then there's Ramona.
Ramona is honest to a fault. She gets herself in trouble. She's curious. She's calls a spade a spade. She speaks out the truth that she sees. She's often reforming others, she's curious. She's lively, she's playful, she's lovable, and she can often get herself in trouble.
So in this particular story, it's from a chapter in the book called Ramona Quimby, age eight, and the chapter is called Rainy Sunday. And this scene, this story, just lives in my memory. It just like, literally, I can recreate it in my mind to this day. And I thought about that because I always say there's a reason we remember. Our memories are powerful.
And, so, there's something about this story that captured my memory when I was young. So I went back and reread it, and revisited it. And here's what's happening, and I think it's in part because it captures both the melancholy, the hard, these different ways we manage through a day.
The different ways we're managing other people, and what's beautiful, and good, and grace-filled about any family. About any collection of people, it doesn't even have to be a family. Because in this case, a stranger comes in to the story.
So I think that's what captured me. Is that it gave us space for there to be both hard, melancholy, struggles, and beauty. Glimpses of joy, glimpses of good in any given day.
On this particular day, Ramona and her family are not getting along. Again, it's rainy, it's miserable, it's melancholy. You feel the just angstness of the day in the house.
Mrs. Quimby is barking out orders, trying to get the girls to do their chores, and Mr. Quimby is checked out. Beezus is cranky and mad that she's not allowed to go to her friend's party. And Ramona is sort of bouncing around, complaining with antsy energy, trying to get out of her chores.
Every single one of them, you get this sense, is just operating at their worst. They're each just trying to make it through the day, cope, survive, and they're really at each other constantly. In an effort to salvage the day, toward the end of the chapter, Mr. Quimby says, "We're going to Whopper Burger, which is their local diner food chain.
And you can tell the way that she tells the story through gritted teeth. He's like, "And we are going to enjoy it." There's this sense of, "By, golly, we're going to just enjoy each other on this day." Even though none of them is really happy.
And at that table, they're at a dinner table and you can picture it. It's just a diner, it's not a fancy restaurant. They're sitting at the table. But there's something about gathering around that table, making a decision to leave the gloomy house behind. And just, brilliantly, what Beverly Cleary does is she shows us, how they each start to move toward a, slightly, better version of themselves.
Mrs. Quimby stops herself from reprimanding Ramona about her manner. She kind of pulls in that little perfectionist part of her and just smiles instead. Beezus stops herself from complaining. She just pulls in that cranky teenage part of her and is present at the table.
Mr. Quimby smiles, there's a sense of a softening, a sense of the worry leaving him. And Ramona stops herself from commenting on everybody else. And you just get this feeling that slowly, just with these micro decisions, each one of them is shifting into a better version of themselves.
Well, the whole time there's this stranger, at the table over, watching them. And he had an interaction with Ramona when they entered into the restaurant, and she's annoyed by the fact that he's noticed them, that he's observed them.
And we don't really know what to make of the stranger. He's described as lonely. He's eating by himself. He's dressed in a way that might suggest he's been to the Goodwill, and he's just by himself.
And, so, we don't really know much about him other than that. He's annoying Ramona because she's aware that he's noticed them. And she notices the waitress talking to him, and then he leaves the restaurant. And what happens next is what always stood out to me, is the waitress comes over.
Mr. Quimby is getting ready to pay. And the waitress says, "This stranger, this man over here has paid for your dinner." And this is no small thing for the Quimbys. They struggle financially and they're confused. They don't know this man. They've never seen him before.
The waitress says, "Yes, he just said he thought you were such a nice family and he misses his own kids, his own family, and he wanted to pay for your dinner." And they're all just stunned, by this, because they don't feel like they've been a nice family. They feel like they've been a cranky, anxious, angst, stern, complaining family all day, and this stranger has seen a nice family. He's seen a group of people trying to be together, and it stuns them.
And you realize, in that moment, that sometimes when we're in it. When we're in the angst, when we're in the emotions, we don't see the good. We miss those little micro moments where our parent or a family member, our child, or our sister, or our mom, or our dad, or our grandparent, is actually trying to make a step toward just doing it a little bit differently. We miss those moments.
And, so, when that stranger sees them in a different light, it brings out even more of the best of them. And as they're driving home, each of them is even more kind, even more present, even more grateful, and it's just a beautiful story. And reading it again, I get why it stayed with me there's so much to it. It really hits us.
This is all of our families, in many ways, or even our friend groups. It doesn't have to be your literal family. This might be your group of friends. This might be your group of relatives, your community. We can feel broken, busted up, we are not getting along, nobody is getting us.
Even in the best of us, even in the best of our families or our friend groups. We can feel more of the melancholy, more of the angst, more of the misses than we feel the joy and the connections. We humans are messy.
I think there's a reason that memory stuck with me all these years. It's such a picture of family and, man, there are hard days. There are days where the melancholy feels deeper than the joy. And even on Thanksgiving, that is true, especially, I would say, during the holidays that is true. Everything is magnified. We feel the grief, we feel the melancholy, we feel the angst.
Here's the thing, even as you feel those things, even as you welcome those feelings. I also don't want you to miss small moments of joy, and that's what that parable is really about. It's not about a happy ending in the sense of, "Oh, yay, and now we were all happy for the rest of our lives, and all treated each other well every day from here to the eternity." That's not what happens.
But there's a moment where they notice. They notice themselves pulling back the sharp barb. They, each, notice themselves pulling back on the criticisms. They each have a moment of showing up a little bit more like the best version of themselves.
They each have a moment. And even the lonely man, in the story, if you look at this as a parable, he's lonely. He's missing his family. We don't know why he's not with his kids or his grandkids. Maybe they live far away. Maybe he's ostracized from them, we don't know.
I know some of you feel ostracized from your family. I hear from you. You write to me. You'll say things to me, "I'm the toxic one. I'm the one whose kids have set the boundaries with." You feel like the one who's been ostracized.
You're lonely. You're facing hard things about yourself and I want to say a special note to you, if you're feeling that way this holiday. "I'm the one that my kids said, 'I can't be with you this holiday.'"
Think of that old man and that parable. What's a kindness you could do for somebody else? That's part of your healing. You are starting to heal too. And part of what you do to love them is not to beg, or plead, or control, or manipulate, or guilt trip them into showing up for you.
Part of what you're doing is granting them the space that they've requested. Honoring what they've asked for from you, and that's painful. And that's causing you to have to look at yourself in all new ways and face shame, and that's hard. And my prayer goes out to you this Thanksgiving, as you honor these hard things that you're facing.
What if you could do something nice for someone else, for someone else's family? What if you could turn toward healing in a new way? What if you could find a way to give thanks for that moment, even amidst a lot of pain that you're facing?
Maybe you are Ramona in this story. You feel like you're the one that's pointing out all the hard things. You're the namer. You're the one who is honest. You're the one who's like, "We're not always nice. We're actually not doing a very good job today." If that's who you are. If that's who you are, what if today you could just take a step back, and look for the good. Look for what is working in your family today.
You might be like Mrs. Quimby the one trying to hold all things together, you've got a fistful of bills. You're worried about everyone. And as a result, you're barking out orders, trying to get everybody else to just get along. What if you could take a deep breath and just notice what's going well? What to give thanks for today?
And maybe you're like, Mr. Quimby, you've just made some hard decisions. You've moved away from some old ways to pursue something better. It's scary, it's foreign, it's uncomfortable, it's new, you're a little wobbly. You're not sure what's next for you.
What if you could just take a deep breath today, and pause, and notice what's going right. What can you give thanks for? And what if you are Beezus, cranky, a little grumpy, a little tired of your family, not sure you really want to be with them. Give yourself grace, take a little space and then notice one thing, you can give thanks for.
Each of us is represented by a member of this parable. The one who is lonely. The one who is anxious. The one who is melancholy. The one who is irritable. The one who is facing hard changes. And maybe for you, you need to minimize the togetherness today in order to be thankful.
Maybe you're someone who needs to take a deep breath, in order to notice what's good alongside what's hard.
So today, and over the coming month, as you consider the holidays:
What if you could acknowledge one good thing about this gathering, this day, this family, these people, yourself?
And what if you could also honor one thing that's hard?
This Thanksgiving, I want you to consider creating space for what's hard, for what's good, and for what's messy today. Give thanks for what you can and give grace for what feels hard. And no matter where you find yourself in this story, today, I'm with you in prayer.
I am sending love to each of you today. I'm so grateful that you're here. Give thanks, today, for what you can and give grace, today, for what feels hard.
OK, buckle up, today's conversation on The Best of You podcast goes deep, and we both get really honest about own struggles. I could have talked with Mary for hours about how to get off the treadmill of perfecting and proving your worth-and start claiming the life you actually want. You do not want to miss the end where we get into social media, the curse of comparison, and the approval chain from which no one is immune.
We touch on so much in this episode, including:
1. The hidden fears that drive us to perfect and prove our way into belonging
2. If we let go of working to earn the approval of others, then what?
3. The moment Mary discovered that chasing gold stars was not leading her to what she actually wanted
4. The pitfalls and perils of social media
5. How to get out of comparison traps
6. The voice in our heads that keeps us running in circles
7. The real mark of emotional health (and it's *not* never failing or never feeling hurt)
8. 3 questions to ask yourself as you stop chasing approval:
- If tomorrow, it were all gone:
- What would you do differently?
- What would you roll up your sleeves and do the hard work of rebuilding again?
- What doesn't seem to matter anymore? (Questions from Slow Growth Equals Strong Roots)
Connect with Mary at www.marymarantz.com/quiz
Thanks to our sponsors:
- Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
- Download Abide Sleep and Pray Meditation and text my promo code BESTOFYOU to 22433 today to get 25% off!
Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Resources
- Grab a copy of Mary's new book Slow Growth Equals Strong Roots wherever books are sold
- Dirt, by Mary Marantz
- Boundaries for Your Soul, by Alison Cook and Kimberly Miller
- How to make daily commitments to yourself in The Best of You Chapter 6
- Episode 10: What are Limiting Beliefs and How Do I Overcome Them with Mary Marantz
- "Wherever you Go There You Are" is the title of a book by Jon Kabat-Zinn
- Over the Top: Moving from Survival to Stability from Stability to Success, from Success to Significance
- Alison on The Mary Marantz Show
- Resources for support
On today's episode of The Best of You podcast, I'm talking with the wonderful and wise Toni Collier who shares bravely about finding herself stuck in the performance trap, and how she clawed her way out. Toni's capability & high capacity helped her survive, but she also wound up exhausted, broken, and numbing. As Toni says, "I had a source, which is God, but the resources I did not have." And she had to learn to discover a more authentic, wholehearted way.
Here's what we discuss:
1. How capability, strength, and achievement can turn into survival strategies
2. Why we turn toward numbing as a way to cope with pain
3. What finally drove her to get help
4. How she started to find healthy relationships and find her way out of the pain.
5. Practical ways she keeps the performer part of her in check now.
6. What she would say to her young performer's heart now.
(Be ready for some tears on this one. . .)
Grab a copy of Toni's new book Brave Enough to Be Broken wherever books are sold.
Thanks to our sponsor:
- Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Resources
- Learn more about the 7 P's of Managing Perceptions in Chapter 8 of The Best of You: Break Free From Painful Patterns, Mend Your Past, and Discover Your True Self in God, by Dr. Alison Cook
- Grab a copy of Toni Collier's new book Brave Enough to Be Broken wherever books are sold
- Resources for support
Transcript
Alison: Hey everyone, I'm Dr. Alison, and I'm so glad you're here to discover what brings out the best of you. This podcast is all about breaking free from painful patterns, mending the past, and discovering our true selves in God. I can't wait to get started as we learn together how to become the best version of who we are with God's help.
Hey everyone. Welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast. Where we are going through The Seven Ps of Managing Perceptions. The ways that parts of us try to get us to cope. Try to get us to show up in our lives that keep us from authentic connection with others, with God, and with parts of ourselves that need our attention. And today we're going to talk about a performer part.
This is that part of you that can shape-shift, that can play different roles, that is adept at getting the job done. It might be a part of you that achieves, or it might be a part of you that just knows how to get the job done. And knows how to show up in whatever way is necessary in order to earn the approval, earn the affection of other people.
And my guest today, to talk about this performer part, is a new friend of mine, Toni Collier. Toni is an amazing woman who's the author of a brand new book called Brave Enough to Be Broken. And she's also got a very adept performer part of her, that did a lot to help her survive and almost got the best of her.
Toni is a coach and she's the founder of Broken Crayons Still Color. An international women's ministry that helps women process their brokenness and reclaim hope. And before we get started with Toni, I wanted to read you a few of these quotes from her new book. That really stood out to me and I just loved because they fit so well, they align so well with everything we talk about on this podcast.
That we have to trust God. We want to turn toward God in everything we're doing, especially, in this work of healing. And we also have to equip ourselves with the tools that God gives us, which is so much the focus of this podcast.
So here are some quotes, just to get started, before I bring Toni on.
"In the past, I would plead for God to take away the pain. Today I pray for God to be with me in the pain, as He and I journey toward hope."
Another quote, "I believe that Jesus is in the valleys with us. But even more than that, He wants to give us every tool to claw our way out. He's smart, and because He is the Creator of all and is working through and in everything. Not only is He spiritually present with us in every moment, but He's also giving us the practical tools to live redemption out day-by-day."
I just love that Toni, in this book, offers real spiritual wisdom as well as practical tools of how she dug herself out, and how you can dig yourself out too. So with that, Toni, welcome to The Best of You podcast. I'm so glad you're here.
Toni: I'm so grateful to be here, and I'm so excited to dive into the hard things and bring Jesus in it too.
Alison: You are just so open, and that's a big part of your path toward healing. But I want to just start a little bit at the beginning. In Brave Enough to Be Broken, in the very first chapter, you write, "I hadn't even begun to process the childhood wounds. that dug deep into my performer's heart."
Toni: Mm.
Alison: It started with taking care of your mom after she'd suffered a massive stroke, when you were eight. And immediately, of course, my inner therapist, I was like, "What do you mean by performer's heart?" Tell us a little bit more about that performer part of you. That from what I read, stepped in really, legitimately, had to step in, but then got a little extreme, you were young. So tell me a little bit about what you mean by that.
Toni: When I first started my counseling journey. My counselor recommended a book called The Performer's Heart, and I started to dive into it, and I was like, "Man, this is me." Essentially what was happening was, and this is probably going to get just a little intense real fast.
But what was happening was, yes, my mom was so sick, she had a massive stroke when I was eight years old. She was paralyzed on her left side. We found out she had a blood clot, she lost her large intestine, I mean, really life-threatening things. And because my father went to overdrive at work, and he really started to kind of hide in his work, and my brothers went to drugs, and all the things, it was just me and my mom.
And, so, there were moments where if I didn't know how to drive my mom to the doctors she may have died. And, so, now, I'm growing up with this idea that if I don't take care of something. That if I don't lead something, if I'm not the one that shows up, then, things will die. That's how extreme my body was processing it. Is, "I have to be in charge, I have to do it. I have to protect everyone or they'll die."
And, so, what happened was, obviously, that leaked over into all of these other areas of my life. I also wanted to make my dad proud because if I did really well if I performed really well, he would show up. He would come back. He would say he's proud. He would leave work to come to my cheerleading competition or my acting competition.
And, so, there was just this ping-pong of like, "I'm performing to make sure that everyone stays safe and alive. I'm also performing for attention. For someone to just look at me and say, 'We're proud of you. We see you working so hard to keep everything afloat.'" And, obviously, that then manifests into college, and then it leaked over into ministry. What does that look like?
Well, you stand on stages and you perform and you don't share what's actually happening. So you don't get healed, and then you are an unhealthy leader in ministry because you're just performing. So, yes, all that.
Alison: It's unbelievable, I mean, just to put the juxtaposition I, probably, already am bent in you toward being very capable, high-achieving, I'm sure that was already in there. But then you overlay the trauma of what happened to your mom, probably other traumas, where you, literally, had to step up. You had to step up and perform beyond what any child should have to do.
Toni: Yes.
Alison: You're still performing at school. You're still all the things you just said, you're getting affirmed for all. It makes so much sense, to me, that the message, what I'm hearing you say, is there's a message this part of you picked up. That was like, "Well, I can do it, I am doing it, and no one else is going to do it either." To some degree.
Alison: Oh, yes, 100%.
Alison: And no one was taking you aside, Toni, and saying, "This isn't your job." It sounds like there wasn't really anyone stepping in.
Toni: Yes, I think that's what I would say hurts the most, when I'm in counseling, when I'm processing with my counselor. The thing that gets that frog up in my throat, it gets me a little eyes to tear is the question like, "Where was everybody? Where were the school counselors? Where were my other family members? And, of course, where were you, God?"
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Toni: In my deepest, darkest moments, at the beginning of my healing journey, I was like, "God, where were you? Why weren't you protecting me?" Which then manifested into the lie that God doesn't protect you.
But all along, He actually was right there protecting me from so many things, and bottling up every single one of my tears. His 'Withness' was not the question. It was, well, what do you do when everyone around you is not with you? How do you reconcile that? And it was tough, so tough.
Alison: Yes, I talk a lot of time about being spiritually strong. We have all the belief in God but, absolutely, no one, I mean, we still need the skills, the tools to learn how to live that. Now, the sense I get from your book, Toni, without spoiling it for anybody. Just the vulnerability that you share in the book is you go between, and I talk about this a lot in Boundaries for Your Soul. So you go between this over-performing, and over-producing, getting the job done, all the things on one hand, and then numbing. Which makes sense, "Let's shut it down."
Because those tender, vulnerable, sweet young parts of you were not getting the care that they needed. So tell me a little bit about that. At what point, I'm sure that's not a conscious choice. "Gee, I'm over-performing, so, golly, let's numb it down." How did that happen? If you put yourself back in young Toni when you started numbing. I don't know if there's a story that comes to mind or a first moment where it was just...
Were you conscious? I mean, reading your story, now, it's like, "of course you did. Of course, you shut yourself down. It makes perfect sense." But at the time, I'm just curious if you were conscious of it or if it was more just kind of desperation, "And I'm just doing what I need to do in the moment to survive."
Toni: Yes, 100%. I mean, I think it's the latter. I think, as children, as teens, we're so young, we're so resilient, but we are doing what we can to survive. And the very things that we've used to cope, growing up, becomes the things that take us out as adults. It's like, "Whoa, that is not a good behavior girls and boys." But I was just doing the best I could.
Alison: Oh, yes.
Toni: And the moment was when I was 13, I'll never forget it, I went over the summer to stay with my godparents and I just loved their life so much. They had a whole family, no one was sick. They had these fun things that they did. They went to basketball games, and football games and all their kids were able to be kids. And, so, of course, when you catch a glimpse of that, it's almost like a mirror to your pain and you're like, "Darn it, I want my life to be like this." And I did not want to go home at all.
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Toni: I remember returning, and that was the first time that I'd really fallen vulnerable to a much older guy in high school. Who was very sexually manipulative for my entire freshman year, in high school. He would just perform these sexual acts on me until I lost my virginity at 13 in my bedroom when my parents were gone.
And it was the first time, I think, that I had found something to numb with and it was just this escape, that sex gave to me. And he also introduced me to marijuana and drinking. And, so, that just added to the numbing. I look back now and I'm like, "Yes, it was that summer when I experienced a whole family or what looked like a whole family, and I just got so sad and I didn't want to feel that anymore. And, so, that's when I started numbing, absolutely.
Alison: That makes so much sense, the juxtaposition is so... and I hear this a lot, almost tasting, or glimpse this beauty, or this safety in this family where you maybe could even be a kid.
Toni: Yes.
Alison: Where you didn't have to be the adult, you could just be. A glimpse of it, while beautiful and good, also stirred up all that pain and all that sadness. And what 13-year-old knows how to deal with that? You were not equipped. And, so, someone comes in with a pseudo-false version, and it makes so much sense.
Toni: I like what you said about a 13-year-old not being equipped. And what I'm excited about in this book, is that I think we have a lot of adults that aren't equipped either.
Alison: Yes.
Toni: I was numbing from 13 all the way up until 24. I got a divorce, I finally, decided to clean my life up, but I didn't have the tools and the resources to really claw my way out. I had to go get them. I had a source, which was God, but the resources, I didn't. And it's unfortunate because we have so many 25, 30, 50, 60, 70, year olds who also aren't equipped to heal, and to get into counseling, and have all these other resources.
I think that's something that we should pay attention to. I bet there's someone that's like, "Ooh, snap, I'm 35 years old, am I equipped?" And it's like, yes, we should be asking ourselves that question right now.
Alison: A 100%, I love that, that you're saying because part of the reason you weren't equipped is because the adults who were supposed to be caring for you, weren't equipped.
Toni: Yes.
Alison: And, so, again, we always talk about this. I always want to add the caveat, all the moms listening, all the dads listening, all the parents, we don't say this to shame. As our friend, Curt Thompson, says, "We say this to name what's true." Not to shame, but to name. When those caregivers are not there and not equipped, there is a fallout for that that we have to be real about.
Toni: And I say this all the time, and this was a huge part of my healing journey with my parents, is that there is a difference between people that are wicked and those that are weak. And the truth is, my mom could have done nothing.
There was nothing else that she could have done with her health. It was not her fault that she got sick, that she had all these medical issues. There was nothing else she could have done. And, for my dad, when I started healing from things in my past, with my father. I realized that he had never had another example of parenting then. His dad and his dad...
And, so, I think that's so good, Alison, we've got to give people the grace to be imperfect as we all are. And from that place, I think, it's honestly so much easier to forgive if we're being honest. So many things were reconciled in my past, from just understanding that my parents were just broken, imperfect human beings. That needed the same grace that I ended up needing as well.
Alison: And we could hold true things in our own healing journey, as adults, of, "I didn't get what I needed." And that is true, there is a reason for that. And sometimes we're more there. Sometimes we go through phases of anger, we go through phases, and that's valid. And then we get to this point of, "And here are the reasons that I didn't get what I needed." And it sounds like you've done a lot of that work.
I'm curious, Toni, so you're numbing all the way through 23. But from what I understand, as you tell the story, you're also high-performing all the way through too well, you're doing both at a high level. First of all, were you aware of that divide? Were you aware of that split? And was anybody around you or could you keep it hidden?
Toni: Oh, I don't know, first of all, I thought I was going to be a lawyer. Which is probably why I kept it hidden so well, and no, I did not recognize it in the moment. I say this all the time, though, "I was living, legitimately, two different lives."
I mean, I really was, my counselor calls it my ability to be a chameleon. I can just bend, and move, and be everything everybody wants me to be, which is a part of that performer part. And I was 16, I graduated high school, but I was also, literally, sneaking out of my parents' house, stealing the car, going to smoke weed, all the stuff.
I was captain of the cheerleading team. I was in the debate team, thespian society as an actress. I was winning awards and setting records in high school because, again, there was this back and forth of, "I got to make my dad proud. I want him to say he's proud so bad, so I got to fight."
But the only way for me to have the strength to endure, to actually push forward, is to numb all the painful parts. They cannot come in the room because they're going to freaking destroy me. And, so, I just pushed them all underneath the rug. And, unfortunately, as you know and we know, and we should all know you leak until you implode and then you explode.
And that's what happened at 23 and 24 it just all bubbled up to the surface and it was like, "Oh, I can't do both. I've got to find some health here. I've got to stop allowing the pendulum to swing back and forth between these two extremes and find a rhythm, that's healthy for my life."
Alison: It's unbelievable. I mean, as we always say, "I honor the parts of you that we're working so hard. To keep you going by performing, achieving, and numbing." That's how you survived. Talk us through a little bit that moment when you realized, "This isn't going to work anymore."
Toni: Oh, my gosh, first of all, I lost everything. I'd gotten into a marriage at 19. Gotten engaged, moved to a whole different state, it was a crazy guy. I knew him for like three months, it was crazy. But I was performing. I was like, "Look at me, I'm young, I'm about to get married. I'm an adult, here I am, look at me go." And I ended up being in a really toxic and verbally abusive marriage.
But I had a daughter in that and it took me a while to leave and I finally left. And then I was also in a really spiritually abusive church, and I transitioned out of that church as well. And next thing you know I am a single mom, I am living with another single mom. Because I can't afford a place for myself, looking for a job. I had been in ministry, I'd been on stages and now I hadn't and I just lost everything.
And I also decided to stop numbing. I'm like, "I want to start over. I want a new life. I want to get it together." Well, when you stop numbing, it's when really all the things start to come to the surface. I was doing drugs, smoking, alcohol to numb, and anxiety set in. And I was like, "Whoa, what's this?"
And it's like, "Oh, well, you've always been battling with anxiety. You just didn't know it because you were numbing it and hiding it so much." And, so, in that moment, I just remember pleading with God to take the pain away. Because it was almost like I had woken up to the reality that I had a really hard first 20 somewhat years of my life. Because numbing keeps you from that, it tries to keep you safe until it doesn't anymore.
And I just crumbled. I had to send my daughter to be with my parents for that summer, so that I could rebuild my life and figure out what was next. And I knew that I needed to go into counseling, I just was so scared to. Because in our culture, in the African-American culture, it was like, "What are you even talking about? Why are you going to go see a shrink? Are you crazy?"
I remember when I told my mom, I was like, "Hey, I think, I'm going to go to counseling." She, literally, picked up the phone and called me. She was like, "Are you bipolar? What's going on girl?" And I'm like, "Well, okay, I actually don't know if I'm bipolar or not. However, I would love to go find out."
But it was just this big stigma of like, "You've got to be crazy psychotic to even think about going to a counselor's office." And, so, I just focused on getting my finances together. But more than anything, I wanted to be a healthy mom, that's what drove me. I don't even think I had the confidence in myself to heal for me, it was for my daughter. I didn't want her to go through what I went through. And, so, I just went and did my work, but it was extremely painful. Extremely painful.
<Break >
Alison: I just want to say, Toni, the word brave, the fact that brave is in the title of this book. I just have tears in my eyes, I mean, the performer part of you that was so bravely taking care of your mom. That was so bravely showing up at school, getting all the stuff done. The numbing part of you honestly and truly, that was so bravely trying to help you cope, in whatever way it knew how.
But honestly, then, just what you just described, the bravery to go, "I've got a little girl and I got to stop, and I don't even know how." Here's what I love, you say this in the book and it just blessed me, and I want to read it.
You say you prayed, "Please, please take the pain away. Please, God, why does my life have to be so hard? Please take the pain away."
And then you describe feeling a moment of relief, which is beautiful. And then your next sentence is, "That was also the day that I decided to find a counselor."
Toni: Yes.
Alison: I just thought that was so fascinating. You cried out and then you did that brave step of saying, "I got to look at all this stuff."
Toni: Yes.
Alison: Tell me a little bit about that. When you reached out for that support, how did that go, initially? Was it scary? Was it pretty quickly like, "Oh, no, this is working." How did that go?
Toni: Yes, it's interesting because everything was happening at one time. So I had experienced this really a toxic church. And I was like, "Oh, gosh, ugh, am I going to go to another church again?" I was like, "No, I'm not." And then, all of a sudden, I was like, "Man, I just really want to be in church." And, so, I visited North Point Ministries and messed around, and found an incredible church community, with a healthy pastor and all kinds of great things. And, so, that was happening at one time.
And then I started realizing that the people that I had surrounded myself with, I just couldn't anymore. If I wanted a life change, I actually had to change my community as well. And, so, honestly, I think I stumbled into this because I just cut everybody off. I was like, "Okay, nobody talks to me, I need to get my life together."
But what it did was it made room for a healthy community. Because, oftentimes, we want new friends, but we've got all these other friends that are in our inner circle and they're like, "Well, how do I transition them out? What do I do?" And I talk about that in the book, too. How do you transition people to save space for you?
And, so, that was happening at once, and then later down the line, I met my, now, husband, Sam, and I was like, "Who is this guy?" And he just loved me so much and I was like, "Dude, what's happening?" He was so emotionally aware. He was like, "Hey, I want to talk to you about my feelings."
I'm like, "You're a guy, you don't have feelings." Which is what I learned from my dad. All of it was happening at one time. What was great about starting to experience a healthy community, a healthy church, a healthy boyfriend, was that it was a mirror that showed me that what I had been doing wasn't healthy, and I think, for many of us, that's what really helps.
When we start to pursue health, it starts to overflow in all areas of our lives. And then it starts to show the very things that you're battling with, and that's what was happening. As I sat in the counseling office, no, it wasn't cute at first.
As a matter of fact, I went up in there with my arms crossed and I was like, "What are you going to do girl?" And she's like, "Tell me your whole life." And I gave her my whole little story and I spit it off all fast like nothing's happened at all.
And she's like, "Are you okay?"
And I was like, "Yes, I'm fine. What do you even mean? I'm good to go." I was very standoffish. I felt very unprotected, and then I realized that I had a part to play in counseling. If I wanted to actually heal, then I needed to open up. And, again, it was because I had friends, now, that were like, "Oh, I went to counseling and I've got this homework I've got to do."
And I'm like, "You do your homework? What?"
It's like, "Yes, you actually need to go and do your work outside of the counseling office." And I was like, "Oh, okay, I'm going to do that." And, so, it was just this process of all this revelation and witnessing healthy people, and just owning it for myself.
Alison: I love that. There are a couple of things you said in there. Again, first of all, just this partnership with you doing the work and, obviously, with God. But there are a couple of words you said that I just want to pause on because I love it. I think you said, stumbling. You said, "I'm stumbling my way. I'm stumbling around, stumbling my way, I happened upon this church."
And what I hear in that is, and I think you say this in the book, but so many people are like, "What is my five-step plan?" And it's just you had a new direction. You're like, "I'm going to move toward healing. I don't know where to get it, so I'm going to stumble around, happened upon." And I hear this all the time: toxic church, toxic church. . . "Oh, my golly, this is a healthy church." It's just, "There's some health here. There's some health in this man that I'm dating."
It's messy that process, and I really appreciate that you're saying, "I was doing a lot of different things at once. I just knew I had to change. And, so, I threw a lot of things at the wall and noticed what stuck, noticed what was healthy." And I really appreciate just that honesty about that because the process is not always easy. Especially as, to use your words, we're clawing our way out. It's just trying to go in the right direction. Trying to go in a healthier direction.
Toni: I love that you bring that up, too, because that was the reason why I even started my women's organization, Broken Crayons Still Color. Because healing isn't, I mean, we know this, we've heard the quote, "Healing is not linear." It's this weird, windy, tight-squeezed process. And I really wanted to try a little bit to put legs to some of this healing stuff.
A roadmap, if you will, of what I did because I know that there are people out there that are just like, "I don't even know how to find counseling. I don't even know what it means to have a healthy friend. I don't know what boundaries are. I don't know how to put those up and have those hard conversations."
And I just think it's good to have a roadmap. It's good to have a one, two, three-step. But just like you're saying, if you're just going towards hope, I just believe that you'll get there.
Alison: Yes.
Toni: If you're just like, "I just want a brighter day. I want to do better." If you're humble enough to say, "I'm not getting everything right. I've contributed to some of these situations. I've contributed to some of my pain. I've been a victim maybe in the past, but I don't have to stay a victim." Those hope-filled statements and declarations, I think we'll get there. I really do believe that.
Alison: And it can be messy. I love what you're saying, even with the boundaries. I talk a lot to people about scripts, and how to do it, and how to say it, and it's all helpful. And, then, sometimes, there's a part of me that's like, "And just do it the best you can." And sometimes we do it real sloppily. It's okay, especially when you're at rock bottom, you just figure out how to get out and get out. It's not always pretty, and you can always go back later if you need to.
Toni: Hey, I didn't say that right. . .
Alison: Yes, right, if the person is someone who was worthy, they'll be there in the long run. If they weren't then. Now, a couple of more questions I want to touch on. Now you're a speaker, you are an author, you've had another baby, you're married. You've got all this stuff going on. You've got this organization.
That performer part of you, how do you keep that part of you? You're clearly an incredibly capable woman, it's a gift, it's a talent, it's beautiful. How do you keep that part of you in check? So that you're also making sure to stay in balance, stay in touch with the ongoing work of healing, and the hard things that we continue to face in life?
Toni: Yes, absolutely, this was a real journey because the performer was deeply in me. It was in the fabric of my being. The first step was, I remember starting Broken Crayons Still Color, for the first time, and it was just a one-man show. It was just me a blog, I'm doing my thing. And, literally, a month after I started it, I started to feel the Lord's say to shut it down.
And I was like, "Oh, no, sir. No, you're not about to embarrass me out here. I have started something. I've got my name on it, I don't know what you're talking about." And He was like, "Shut it down." And I submitted to that and not only did He say, "Shut it down." But I also took a break off of social media.
Now, before that, if people can scroll all the way down on my Instagram, I was posting pictures of me on stage, "And look at my life now and look at who I am." I mean highlight reel all the way. After I took a three-month break off of social media, I came back and I realized that I was healing, I was doing a great job, but I had really just refocused the performer. The performer before was in a really toxic marriage and just pretending that it wasn't happening.
Now, I wasn't pretending more than I was just glamorizing. I was just showing this very beautiful part. This now redeemed, still coloring part of my life. And the Lord was like, "Mm-hmm, sweetie pie, nothing is wasted. You have not walked through all of that for nothing."
And, so, what I started doing was anytime I would post on social media, I would put it in my notes first. So I called this method like slowing down on the highway. So you know when you have to get off on the highway, and you're about to pass up your exit. The one thing my mom always told me is, "Don't try to speed to the exit if you're about to miss it, slow down. Slow down, get over, give yourself some time, slow down."
I slow down now in everything that I do. In the way that I lead, in the way that I parent. I have to slow myself down, and I write my captions in notes and I pray over them, and I think about it, "Is this about me?"
I ask myself really hard and honest questions. "Is this about me, are we trying to perform, or is this pointing people to Jesus? Is this really authentic or what are you doing here, sweet girl? Are you just trying to be somebody that you're not?" And it's that way in my whole entire life.
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Toni: One of my sayings that we have in our organization is "We don't get ahead of God. Because it is when we get ahead of God, then, we're performing out of our idols, out of our own confidence, all the things. And, so, it's just a lifestyle of slowing down, of asking God, of being certain that I'm doing it out of the overflow of who I am. It's breaking up with balance, having a hundred tabs open versus marrying priorities.
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Toni: Where am I right now?
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Toni: And I think that's just awareness is, probably, what we call it.
Alison: I love that.
Toni: Just knowing myself; I know what it feels like to perform
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Toni: And, so, if I start to drift into that, I got to check myself and slow it on down, and shut it down.
Alison: I love that. What would you say, Toni, to that young, I don't know whether she's eight, 13, or 23, that young.
Toni: Look, you already cried about this, Alison, so I'm strong now.
Alison: What would you say to that young performer part of you now?
Toni: Yes, I think I would just tell her two things. I would say number one God is kind. That means a lot to me because I grew up thinking God was this big mean God. And that He was at the end of the tunnel saying, "You have to get it right before you have access to Me."
When, now, I know that He's really the God that's lighting up the tunnel to get me through. And eight-year-old Toni, 13-year-old Toni, even 19-year-old Toni needed to know that God is really kind.
Our friend Dr. Curt Thompson says this as well, "Sometimes, it's not even the things that we go through, the brokenness that we go through, the grief that we have to carry. It's the pain and fear of doing it alone." A kind God is with you, and I just think I would tell her that. And then I would also say to her, "If you didn't do another thing. If you didn't do another thing in the world, you are so worthy."
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Toni: And as simple as that is to hear, now. Now I don't even think it would impact me because I'm like, "Dang, I am a worthy." But nine-year-old Toni needed to hear that no one told her that. No one told her that she didn't have to perform for her worth, and I would tell her that.
Alison: I love that, that's beautiful. What would you say to another woman, right now, who is feeling at the bottom of that pit and desperate to start clawing her way out?
Toni: I think the one thing that I have been saying here, recently, is giving yourself permission to feel the pain and to be right there in that valley. I think that people can mistake this idea of being brave enough to be broken for, "Put your superhero cap on and go and do the hard thing no matter what."
But the truth is there were ebbs and flows, in my healing journey. There were moments when I had to call my counselor and say, "Listen, every week I need a break, let's go biweekly. Right now, I need a break. This hurt, this last thing that we talked about, it was a lot for me." And even with my organization, I can recognize that there were moments where I used it as a crutch. The Broken Crayons Still Color and it's like, "Okay, it's broken it's okay. Let's keep it going and let's fix it, it's all good. Everybody just clean it all up."
But really there is power in that valley that you're in right now. The pain that you're feeling right now, and there's grace for it, and there's patience for it. And, so, I would encourage that person, right now, to be in that valley, but know that we are not going to leave you there. God's not going to leave you there. There are mountains of hope to claw your way to and it is worth it. It is worth the work. And, so, I just want us to the kindness, just balance it both.
Alison: I love that. I love that the valley is painful, it's hard, and it is a season, it's not forever, and I love that. Almost to the slowing down and even just being able to name that you're in it, is part of the movement toward healing.
I also love, I want to underscore what you said about the pacing that you needed to do with your therapy. You get to say, "Every week is too much for me. I need to slow it down or I need to."
I love that you had the courage to say, "I got to go at my own pace here." And I want to tell people, we talk a lot on here about even therapists can push or try to get you to do. You have to advocate for yourself and say, "I'm in it, I'm doing the work and this is the pace that's working for me right now." So I really appreciate that you highlighted that.
All right, Toni, I just so appreciate you. Question I ask all of my guests, two questions, one, what or who is bringing out the best of you right now?
Toni: Oh, can I be honest, my little four-month old is. I mean, the way he even looks at me and holds onto my hair. There is just this tenderness that I think babies give, that just reminds you that you can still be tender, too, as an adult, and vulnerable, and not able to feed yourself. He just reminds me that I can do that too.
I can just lay and not be able to hold my head up. And I think that's just such a beautiful picture of who God is. Just the God that made our little heads all wobbly and we can't even hold our neck up, and just so innocent, and fragile, and he's just like, "I've got you in the palm in my hand." So my little four-month old is doing a work in me right now.
Alison: I love that. That's beautiful. And what needs and desires are you working to protect?
Toni: Oh, I mean this is good because I am, literally, in a season, right now, now where I'm planning out my next year, and I've got to put some really hard boundaries around my time. One of the things that's been consistent in my life is that everyone said, "Oh, you have so much capacity."
And I'm learning now that just because I have a lot of capacity doesn't mean I need to use it all. There can just be a season where we're just running on 60%. Now, it's not to say that 40% ain't there because I will crush it if I need to at a 100%.
However, I think I'm starting to convince myself and really believe that even 40% is okay. It's okay, it's just I'm only going to do 40% this week. And, so, yes, I want to get to a place where I can really protect that I need rest and I need the freedom to not fill up, and not be a performer all the way to a 100% percent all the time.
Alison: I love that you're setting some gentle boundaries with that performer part of you, for the good of all of you. And I love this idea, we talk about all the time on here, this idea of creating some spaciousness. Just some space for margin and is what I hear you saying. Like, "Just because I can doesn't mean I have to. Just because I can doesn't mean I should."
Toni: Yes.
Alison: So I love that. Tell people where to find you. How to look you up and-
Toni: All the things.
Alison: Yes, all the things.
Toni: So, it's Toni J Collier on everything, t-o-n-i-j-c-o-l-l-i-e-r. The book is called Brave Enough to Be Broken. I love it that you can order it anywhere where all the books are sold, all the things and, yes, that's what's happening.
Alison: Well thank you so much for being here, today, and thanks for sharing your story so bravely, it's going to help a lot of people.
Toni: Thanks Alison. Dr. Alison, thanks for having me.
Alison: You're awesome.
We're kicking off a new series on The Best of You Podcast as we move into the last 2 months of the year. How do you shift from managing the perceptions of others to showing up more authentically? In today's episode, I cover the 7 ways we tend to manage perceptions and why it doesn't get us the real connections we crave. I also walk you through an exercise you can do NOW (as in, before the holiday haze sets in) to help you make brave decisions this holiday season.
Here's what we cover:
1. What does it mean to manage perceptions and why do we do it?
2. The 7 ways we tend to manage perceptions
3. The 2 main problems with managing perceptions
4. Why we have to "retrain" people (& their expectations of us)
5. Examples of steps you can take to honor yourself & your relationships
6. How to create your own "Yes/No List" to help you make brave decisions
7. The courage it takes to say 'no' and how to honor the emotions that inevitably show up when you do
Thanks to our sponsors:
- Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
- Download Abide Sleep and Pray Meditation and text my promo code BESTOFYOU to 22433 today to get 25% off!
- Chosen-Check out Season 3 in theaters starting November 18th. For more information, visit TheChosenTickets.com.
Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Resources
- Learn more about the 7 P's of Managing Perceptions in Chapter 8 of The Best of You: Break Free From Painful Patterns, Mend Your Past, and Discover Your True Self in God, by Dr. Alison Cook
- Episode 25: Types of No Part 1—How to Say “No” in Healthy Relationships
- Episode 26: Types of "No" Part 2—How to Say "No" to Toxicity, The Real Meaning of Turn the Other Cheek & How to Form a Boundaries Committee
- Resources for support
Transcript
Alison: Hey everyone, welcome back to this week's episode of the Best of You podcast. And we are starting a new series in honor of a new month, and also in honor of the holiday season. We're going into a busy end-of-the-year with November and December. With Thanksgiving and Christmas, and all the things that go with these two months.
Now, we just finished a series on Boundaries and the Bible, where we started on the inside. We started with this idea of making and keeping a promise to yourself. Learning to build trust with yourself. All the way through how to negotiate change in healthy relationships and how to say, "No" in toxic situations. Lots of scripts and tips, especially, in those last few episodes.
So in this series, we're going to focus on the seven ways we manage perceptions. Versus the healthy ways of forging authentic connections. And those authentic connections can be with other people, with God, and with ourselves.
I'm going to invite on some friends, in this series, as we walk through these seven different ways that we tend to manage perceptions. In the hopes that this will help you show up more authentically, show up in a truer way, going into this also busy, also consuming, holiday season.
So first, what do I mean by managing perceptions? Well, I talk about this in chapter seven of The Best of You. So if you want to go deeper, reread that chapter. But here's what I mean, in short, managing perceptions is all about managing how the people around you view you.
It's ultimately about protecting yourself, and there's no shame in it, we all do it. But if it's the only way we're showing up in a room full of other people. It leaves us feeling empty, disconnected, and not getting the very thing that we actually want.
So managing perceptions is about getting other people to see you in a certain way. It's about trying to earn approval, earn love, earn validation, earn our way into a friendship, a group of people, a community.
It's all about image management. "If they see me a certain way, I'll be okay."
"If they see me as good enough, I'll finally belong."
"If they see me as someone desirable, they'll let me in." It's about gauging what other people want from you in order to earn their approval. And there are a lot of ways that we do this, for example, you might have learned to read facial cues, and you don't even realize it.
But you walk into a room and you read the cues. If they nod, if they smile, you move in that direction. Or if someone says, "Oh, you look so cute today." You start dressing more in that way. There are all these tiny and big ways, that we work to read the cues other people are sending us. Because we want to fit in. Because we want to feel valued. Because we want to feel okay. Because we want to feel worthy. Because we want to belong.
So, again, there's no shame in these ways that we manage perceptions. But if it's the only way we're showing up in a room full of people with our families, with our friends, or even with our spouse or our kids, or a best friend, just one other person, we are missing out on being truly known.
Instead of feeling deeply connected to other people, and instead of belonging as the real person that we are. Managing perceptions, typically, leaves us feeling anxious. Constantly gauging ourselves, "Did I do it right?"
"Did I say something stupid?"
"Was it okay what I did there?"
"How did I perform?"
"How did I look in that situation?" So it can lead to a lot of anxiety. It can lead to a chronic sense of loneliness. It can lead to feeling like an outsider looking in. It can leave us feeling very far from our God-given selves.
Managing perceptions means, "I am working to earn your approval and to earn my place of belonging." On the other hand, authentic connection means, "I want to be known as I really am."
So I want to say it, again, the goal isn't to shame ourselves. So many of us we're conditioned, in big and little ways, to read the room for our cues, and this starts really young. As a child, you learn, from your parents, what's okay and what's not okay. You learn from your peers at school, that if you show up and say something you might get made fun of. Or if you wear something you might get made fun of.
Or if you play a certain sport, or a certain instrument, or if there's something you like to do in your free time that isn't cool, you might get made fun of. We come by these methods of coping naturally, there is no shame in this.
But we've got to begin to identify our go-to methods of trying to manage the perceptions of other people. So that we can learn how to show up more authentically and stay truer to who we really are.
So here's some examples; managing perceptions might be pretending like you really want to go to a bunch of holiday functions. Because you feel like you should and because other people are doing it, and because your friends will think it's weird if you don't.
And what you really want to do maybe is stay home and enjoy the silence, or enjoy your own decorations, your own Christmas tree, your own twinkle lights. Whatever it may be in silence, reflecting, quietly, on what this year has meant to you, or it could be the reverse.
Maybe it's denying your love of a fun festivity. And denying a longing that what you really want is to show up, and play, and be funny, and joke, and have a lot of fun. And feeling pressured into being very serious, and very deep, and very pensive.
When for you, what you really want to do during this holiday season is to be joyful and have some fun. It can work both ways. It's all about noticing what's going on inside of you and the way that you are tempted to, again, manage the perceptions of the others around you. Versus staying true to what's really going on inside of you.
Another example, it's spending more money than what you have, or what makes sense, or what really matters because you're trying to keep everybody else happy. Maybe you're trying to keep your kids happy. And, so, you're overextending your budget. You're trying to manage the way they perceive you versus taking the time to get curious about what your budget really is. What really matters to you, and how you can really show love in a thoughtful, kind, authentic way.
So there are lots of ways we do this at the holidays. I'll share one, a personal example, I am not someone who is great at decorating. It's never been my thing. If you come into my home, you will see exactly what I mean. It's not the latest, greatest, trends. It's not the most up-to-date, perfectly-placed furniture, and wall decor.
It's reflective of the things I love and the people I love. It doesn't always come together in a beautifully cohesive template. It's home, to me, and I've learned to accept this part of me. And even at the holidays, it's a little wonky, I'll post some pictures when we get closer. I just try to have fun with it and I've let myself go, from that "Should" idea of what perfection looks like when one is decorating.
Whether it's for the rest of the year or whether it's for the holidays. Before, when I was trying to manage perceptions, I might have been embarrassed to have someone over to see my scattered way of decorating for the holidays. I might have been embarrassed by that. I might have apologized for that.
But what I've learned is to claim that. "This is who I am. This is how I create beauty. For me, beauty looks a little different than it might look for a dear friend, who is gifted at making things look beautiful."
And here is the beauty in that, the more I accept my own way of creating beauty in my home. The freer I am to enjoy and delight in going into a friend's home, who is a master creator, a master artist. Someone who's deeply gifted and derives great joy from making things beautiful.
In maybe a more traditional way and maybe more of an instagrammable-worthy way, I end up delighting in that. I love going in and witnessing that beauty in someone else's home. And I love the freedom that I have to be in my own home and enjoy the ways that I create beauty, that doesn't always look like a postcard. And I also delight in the freedom that I have to use my talents in other ways.
There's a lot of freedom in letting go of managing perceptions. Of trying to fit in to a box that doesn't really fit right. If I spend a lot of time and attention doing something that, A, doesn't really fit a gift of mine. It's not something I enjoy; it doesn't bring life to me.
I'm trying to do it so that someone else will be impressed, that's a waste of my time. That's a waste of the talents that God has given me. It also leaves me feeling frustrated because I'm never going to measure up. I'm never going to be as good at doing this thing that's someone else's. So let's just relieve ourselves. Let's just take ourselves out of that box.
Let's each do what brings us joy, what brings goodness into our souls, and then let's celebrate each other.
So that's just one example of a way I've had to learn to put a pause. To set a healthy boundary with the part of me that wants to manage perceptions and make sure other people don't walk into my home and go, "Oh, golly, this house isn't very well decorated."
And go, "This is who we are. These are the things that we value, come on in. You'll find warmth here, you'll find an oasis." And that frees me up to go into other people's homes and delight in what they're good at.
The more we make peace with showing up as our true selves. The less we're trying to manage how other people see us, and the more freedom we discover. Both to delight in how God made us to be and to delight in how God made other people. So what are the seven ways we tend to manage perceptions? We tend to try to get the approval, the love, the belonging that we crave with other people.
We're going to take a deep dive into each one of these over the next few weeks. But, for now, I'm going to give you the list with the mantra that goes with each. And listen to this list and see if there's one, in particular, one or two in particular, that are familiar or resonate with you.
Number one, perfect. "If I appear perfect, no one can criticize me."
Number two, please. "I please others to earn love."
Number three, perform. "I make myself into what others want me to be."
Number four, produce. "I'll produce so they think I have value."
Number five, peace-keep. "I'll stay small, so no one can get angry with me."
Number six, protect. "I keep my guard up, so no one can hurt me."
And number seven, power over. "I dominate. I take control of the narrative."
We all do this on some level. Some of us probably picked two or three from that list, maybe without even realizing it. But ask yourself, what is the way that you manage perceptions when you walk into a room full of people?
Do you tend to play small or blend in so no one can criticize you? Or do you work to make sure everyone around you feels affirmed, encouraged, cared for, served, or helped? Are you the workhorse who's making sure everything gets done? You don't necessarily look for the attention, but you do not want to let any one of those balls drop.
Or maybe you're the entertainer who's keeping everybody having fun. Maybe you're someone taking control. You figure if you can control everything you can make sure no one sees what's really going on.
There is nothing wrong with these qualities, I want to be clear. In fact, all of them have their place, but here's the problem. If you are only working to manage the perceptions of others, two things are going to happen. Number one, you'll lose connection with your core sense of self.
You might even find yourself doing activities, saying things, even in relationships, that you don't really want. And number two, you are likely neglecting your own tenderness, your own vulnerabilities. Parts of you that need you to show up for you, in a more authentic way.
Here's the thing, I want you to enjoy relationships, activities, holiday gatherings, all the things, with people who stick around when the real you shows up. I want you to learn to turn toward those people, those activities, those conversations that bring you life. That genuinely allows you to show up in both the best of who you are and when you're having a hard time.
I want you to learn how to turn away from those relationships, from those people, from those activities that rob your joy. That force you to fit into boxes that no longer fit. I want you to find real joy in these next two months, as we close out this year. Where you learn to take brave steps, to honor the person God made you to be.
Now, it's a process, it's a journey. We've been talking a lot about it on this podcast. Real connections develop as you learn to listen to the cues inside of your own heart and body.
Pay attention to your emotions, to your bandwidth, to your capacity. Learning to speak up for what you really need and want, honestly. And it also starts with getting curious about the ways you are tempted to manage perceptions. The ways you are tempted to perfect, to please, to perform, to produce, to peace-keep, to protect, to even power-over.
It starts with that awareness of that part of you and setting a gentle boundary inside of you. And saying, "You know, I'm going to take a deep breath. I'm going to pause. I'm going to slow down when I walk into this room. I'm going to take a minute to really connect to myself and to God. So I can show up in one simple, small way that is true to myself."
Now, listen, I understand that it can be scary to show up more authentically. I want to encourage you to take a few brave steps, over this holiday season in particular. Don't go for your hardest thing, unless you feel called and unless you feel ready. But a few brave steps to show up a little bit more authentically.
Because here's the thing, we train people to expect certain behaviors from us. If we've always shown up as that producer, that performer, that pleaser, that perfect host. Other people have come to expect that from us. It's not really their fault. It's how we've trained other people that will show up.
And, so, when we start to change that, it can throw other people off. They might not like it. They might even ask you about it, and that's okay. If the relationship is strong, if the relationship is healthy, you can speak up on behalf and say, "Hey, I'm doing things a little bit differently this year."
You can use some of those scripts we talked about in the series on boundaries. To say, "Hey, man, I love spending time with you but I'm doing things differently this year. I'm going to show up in a different way."
As you stop managing perceptions and showing up more authentically, you might discover that someone else will love that quirky aspect of you, or someone will be thrilled to get to know your preferences. That someone will actually be empowered, through your modeling of a healthy boundary. That someone will see you and love you for the person you really are.
When you show up more authentically, you open yourself up to wonderful possibilities when it comes to your relationships, when it comes to your activities. Instead of trying to win the approval of everyone around you, you'll start to draw in the people, the activities, the actual nourishment that your soul craves.
Instead of managing the perceptions of everyone around you. You open yourself up to being known more authentically, and you're also more available to show up in a healing, empowering way for others.
All right, so here's just a quick example of some of the things I'm doing this holiday season. To help my own inner pleaser, producer, and performer, to show up more authentically over this coming holiday season.
I am spoiler alert, I haven't announced this yet on my socials. I'm going to be taking a six week break from social media for much of November and all of December. This is something I decided I need to do over the holidays.
I want to be able to be fully present this holiday season to God, to my family, to my friends, to myself. I'm discerning a lot about how I want to spend the new year. How I want to spend my time, and some writing projects that I have coming in 2023. Which means I need to scale back and that's one way I can do it.
There are things I love about social media, and things that really can just pull me down a rabbit trail of distractions. So I want to take this time to prioritize being present in those ways. I've said a lot of nos to really good things, and that's been hard for me. I've said no to some events. I've said no to some gatherings because I want to have margin over the holidays.
I don't want to be running around scattered, just bouncing like a pinball in a machine, from thing to thing. That's not what is nourishing to me. I want to have time in the day to think about, "Oh, what do I want to be doing for this hour?" Versus, "How do I just need to be feeling this time?"
So I've said some proactive nos that were hard to say, but that were important for me to stay healthy of body, of mind, of spirit, and of emotion. So I'm inviting you now, this first week of November, to take out your calendar and take a look at the next two months, and here's a strategy I want to share with you. I've just gone through this exercise myself. It came out of that whole boundary series we did the last couple of months. But I created a NO list, a MAYBE list, and a YES list. And I just did this in the notes app on my phone.
I have a NO list, a YES list, and a MAYBE list. And I started with the YES list. What do I absolutely need and want to say yes to over the next two months? And I tried to keep it really small. These are the absolutely YES, I am going to say YES to these few things, and get them on that list. And then if you're not sure, if you're not 100% sure, put some things on that MAYBE list.
Maybe, "I can't say no yet, but it's also not just 100% yes. So your MAYBE list might be long. And then start to put some things on that NO list. What are you going to say NO to?
Now start with the easiest things. The "Man, I'm definitely saying no to x, y, and z. I am saying no to this. I'm saying no to that. I'm saying no to this." Just get clear about the easy nos first. But there's going to be some hard nos. And when you get to those hard nos, they're going to go on that MAYBE list. This all goes back into that MAYBE pile.
The things want to say yes to but you're not sure you have the bandwidth for, and the things you want to say no to but it's going to be hard. All of those things go on that MAYBE list. And you divide that MAYBE list into two sections. One section that is the, "I wish I could say yes, I'm not sure I can." And the second section is, "I really want to say no, but it's going to be hard."
So, really, you have three lists, but that MAYBE list has two sections. And I really want you to spend some time with that maybe list. And I want you to pray over it, and I want you to talk to God about it. And if you've taken me up on that idea, to start forming a boundaries committee, you might have called it your no committee. It's that safe friend that helps you with those nos that are really hard to say. Take that maybe list to that person and talk it through with them.
But I want you to be proactive with that maybe list. I want you to challenge yourself. Why are you afraid to say those nos? Is it because you feel a sense of responsibility of calling? Or is it because you're afraid of not managing those perceptions? You're afraid of what they'll think if you say no? That there's some message you've told yourself, that you need to do this thing in order to get their approval.
I really want you to take a look at those things that are hard to say no to, and just examine a little bit prayerfully, and with that safe friend, and inside your own soul. The reason why it's hard to say no and see if you can bump some of those onto that NO list, and go ahead and take action. And, again, if you need some scripts, check out chapter six and chapter nine of The Best of You. Or go back to episodes 25 and 26 of the podcast, where we get into different ways of saying no.
But I really want to encourage you to move some of those maybes, proactively, onto that no list before the holiday season heats up and it's going to get only harder. It might be things like what you do for the holidays. Where you spend the holidays? How you spend the days after the holidays? How you spend the days leading up to the holidays?
It might have to do with the gifts that you are going to give. It might have to do with the cooking that you're going to do. It might have to do with conversations you're going to have or not have. It might have to do with events you've been invited to.
So take a look at that, and then take a look at the second part of that Maybe list, that are the yeses you really wish you could say, but you might not be able to. And I want you to ask yourself a couple of questions related to those things.
Is there a no you need to say that's going to be sad? And can you honor the fact that it's going to be sad? Can you allow yourself a little bit of grief about converting that, "I wish I could but I can't" into a no?
A lot of times we avoid saying a NO that we need to say because it makes us sad. Because we really wish we could. And, so, just notice if that's going on for you. And then, secondly, there may be a yes, you really wish you could say that you can't, because of really legitimate and hard circumstances. It might be a health issue, either yours or a family member's. It might be a financial issue that's really hard. It might be a mental health issue that's hard to talk about. That you're struggling and you need to be really careful with your time.
And, sometimes, it's just really hard because it brings up frustration. It might even bring up anger about this set of circumstances. You might find that you come face to face with frustration with God. Like, "This isn't fair. I want to be able to do this thing and I can't because of this set of circumstances." Or "These other people are going to be mad at me, and I can't tell them why I don't have the bandwidth right now. And that's just a bummer, man, that just stinks, I hate it."
And, so, you may have to give yourself permission, again, to grieve. You might have to give yourself permission to lament. You might have to give yourself permission to be a little bit angry even, and God can take it. God can take that anger. And I want to tell you, I'm so sorry, if you're finding yourself in that set of circumstances. Where there are some really good things you want to say yes to and you can't, and it's hard, and I'm with you in that this holiday season.
I hear you and I want to honor that with you. I want to honor that pain with you. And I'm inviting God right here right now to say God sees that pain too and it's hard, and God doesn't minimize that. God doesn't bypass that. And God also honors the courage that you're showing to say a hard NO, to honor this hard thing that you're going through.
It's hard, especially, at the holidays, to be brave. To honor, sometimes, even the hard things that we have to honor, that are going on in our lives. That means we have a reduced capacity, and it makes us mad. And it might make you sad, and I just want you to know I see you and I hear you, and I'm right there with you this holiday season.
So make those lists and give yourself permission to honor whatever emotion shows up. Especially in that middle category, where it's a big MAYBE. Where you're probably feeling stuck and you can't make that decision because it's hard and it brings up some emotion.
Be gentle with yourself. You're not going to get it exactly right. And that's the last thing I want to give you today, is you're going to make some mistakes, and you're going to muddle your way through a little bit. It's going to be messy. You're going to do some things you wish you didn't. You're going to overextend yourself in certain ways, and you might even say some nos that you later regret. This is not perfect. This is not a zero-sum game, as they say. It's not about getting it right. It's about giving yourself permission to show up a little more honestly, with a little more integrity, a little more authentically.
Because as you do that, here's the paradox, there's freedom in giving yourself permission, to make some mistakes on this journey of becoming more true to your God-given self.
All right, so make those lists. Be brave, and I can't wait to join you here next week with some friends of mine. With some different guests, who are going to talk us through how they've learned to be brave in their lives, in so many of these ways.
This week on The Best of You Podcast, we're getting into how to say No to toxic behaviors-including practical strategies, scripts, and misconstrued bible passages. There's no one-size fits all when it comes to setting healthy boundaries. A strategy that might work in a healthy relationship won't work with toxicity. It's important to understand the difference.
This is a packed episode. Here's what we discuss:
1. Why toxic behaviors require an entirely different type of "no"
2. An overview of toxic behaviors
3. Extreme toxicity and when to cut off a relationship all together
4. 5 steps to implement a boundary with toxic behavior
5. 3 scripts for 3 different situations
6. What about turning the other cheek?
7. How to form a boundaries committee
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Thanks to our sponsors:
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- Check out Season 3 of The Chosen in theaters starting November 18th. For more information, visit TheChosenTickets.com.
Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik
While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Resources
- Learn more about the Spectrum of Toxicity and scripts for setting healthy boundaries inThe Best of You: Break Free From Painful Patterns, Mend Your Past, and Discover Your True Self in God, by Dr. Alison Cook
- Episode 24: Boundaries, the Spectrum of Toxicity, and a Note About Evil
- Episode 25: Types of No Part 1—How to Say “No” in Healthy Relationships
- Episode 1: What Is Narcissism Really?
- Episode 2: What Should I Know About Gaslighting?
- Think Again, by Adam Grant
- Mathew 5:38-42
- Matthew for Everyone, by N.T. Wright
- Ephesians 6:11
- 1 Peter 5:9
- 1 Corinthians 15:58
- 1 Corinthians 16:13
- Resources for support
Transcript
Alison: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Best of You podcast. So we are, today, going to get into part two of types of NO everyone needs to learn to say. This is the last episode in this series of Boundaries and the Bible. And last week we got into how to say NO in healthy relationships. And this week we're going to get into how to say NO when there's toxicity.
It requires a whole different set of skills, set of strategies, and I'm going to walk you through two different ways to say no. When you're dealing with people who are behaving in manners consistent with that toxic side of the spectrum.
We talked about the spectrum of toxicity, back in episode 24, so if you want a refresher of what that spectrum is and what those different behaviors look like, head back to episode 24. You can also check out chapter six in my new book The Best of You, where I explain that spectrum.
So just to recap, last week we talked about how to say no in healthy relationships. And the key thing to understand is that when someone is, primarily, operating out of healthy behaviors on that healthy side of the spectrum, communication is possible.
You can go to that person and tell them what you need. What you're feeling, what's not working for you, what you want to see in that person. They may not be able to give you everything you want, but they'll be able to meet you there, and you'll be able to have a conversation.
Especially if you go into that conversation well, with the strategies that I taught you in last week's episode, episode number 25. You're going to be able to have a conversation.
Now, these conversations are hard, they require courage, but when people are healthy, they become really beautiful. You begin to negotiate a way forward that works for both of you. So in those healthy relationships, the goal of communication is to connect. It's to increase understanding. It's to arrive at a solution that works for both people. You can negotiate the boundary lines in healthy relationships. You can engage dialogue; you can work together.
However, what about when someone has exhibited a consistent pattern of toxic behaviors? How do you go into a conversation with someone like that? Where their behaviors show you that they're operating more on that toxic side of the spectrum. That's what we're going to get into today.
We're going to get into how to say no with actions, primarily, and how to say no by using this method I call turning the other cheek. Which many people have misconstrued to encourage you to continue to play a doormat, that's not what it means.
We're going to get into that in this episode. It's a packed episode, and we're going to end, or I'm going to teach you how to develop your own boundaries committee. Which is one of my favorite strategies for when you're dealing with someone in your life that is extremely hard to love. That is extremely hard to have a relationship with, but you're stuck in a relationship with them for whatever reason.
So let's get started with the second type of NO. The first type of NO, again, last week's episode, How to Say No in Healthy Relationships. Number two, how to say NO with actions. When you have to deal with toxic or even abusive people that are more on the left side of that spectrum, the most effective way to say no is with actions. Your actions are going to speak loudest.
With folks like this, the truth is, you've, probably, already tried to have a conversation, to communicate on behalf of your needs. To let them know how you need to see a change. You've probably tried to use words and it hasn't worked, that channel is closed.
And, so, I want to be clear, if you could have a constructive conversation with someone about your needs, about the changes you need to make, about the ways in which you need to shift things in the relationship. If you could have that conversation in a constructive way, then the relationship wouldn't be toxic. It wouldn't be on that toxic side of the spectrum.
The hallmark of a healthy relationship is the ability to communicate. It's the ability to be heard, and understood, and seen by that other person. It's the ability to be respected by your friend, by your loved one, and it's you being willing to respect and honor them.
But if that's not happening. If you're going to this person, whether it's a parent, a spouse, a friend, an adult child. Whomever it may be, and instead of being met with respect, with curiosity, with an attempt to understand, you're being met with a guilt-trip.
You're being met with gaslighting, which means they're spinning your words and using them against you. You're being met with narcissistic tendencies, which means they're not even hearing you. They're just blatantly disregarding you.
They're telling you, "There's something wrong with you." That you are hurting them with your very genuine request of them. They're spinning that and making it about them. You're being met with manipulation or instead of really hearing you, they're taking your words and manipulating them to get you to do what they want you to do, what's in their best interest.
Maybe you're being met with criticism. Where they're shaming you or criticizing you for stating a legitimate need. This happens and these are toxic behaviors. Maybe you're being met with blame-shifting where you're stating a genuine need and someone is shifting the blame. They're saying, "It's your fault that that's not happening, it's not my fault." You're being met with defensiveness, is another one.
These are all things that you can be met with, that makes it unsafe for you to try to have a healthy conversation. This other person is using toxic behaviors, toxic strategies, to shut you down. They won't meet you with authenticity, they won't meet you with openness. They won't meet you to say, "Hey, help me understand. This is hard for me to hear, but I want to understand you. I want to understand what you need."
They're not taking you at face value. They're not giving you the benefit of the doubt. They're using any one of those strategies I just mentioned, that are toxic and, so, you have to use a different strategy. You're going to have to say, "No" with your actions.
Now, at the end of last week's episode, I mentioned that I think the hardest category of NO is with folks who are a bit of a combination. Who are showing some of these toxic strategies, that I just mentioned, and where there's also some good. Maybe it's a parent who is very self-centered, who guilt trips you, and they're also really great with your kids.
Maybe it's a spouse who has some defensiveness who doesn't really hear you, who's a little bit self-centered, and they're also a really good provider and they're not cruel to you. This is that hard category, where there are folks who are in this gray area. They have some good qualities, but there's also some really challenging qualities, and that's where you've got to use some more sophisticated skills.
Now, I want to say a note, there are some folks who I would put on the extreme side of that spectrum of toxicity, where there's very little good left. And these are the folks we touched on in the episode, The Spectrum of Toxicity, where I even touch on evil.
Where folks have made so many decisions down the wrong path, that unfortunately they are really living out of the worst of who they are. Their choices that they've made time and time again, make it almost impossible to engage with them.
And, as a result, they're going to demonstrate toxic behaviors so consistently as to cause great harm. And these are folks from whom you may have to cut off ties all together. You may just have to completely extract yourself from that relationship, and there's a time and a place to do that. I would not do that alone. I would get the help of a trained counselor, a very good group of friends to help you extract from that relationship altogether.
So, primarily, again, we're focusing on that toxic side of the spectrum. Where there are folks where there might be some good. You may not see it, you may not want to cut the relationship off, altogether, but you've got to communicate some NOS. And, again, as you move toward this side, actions work best.
Here are some steps to guide you when you're going to say this NO, on this chronic to toxic side of the spectrum. Number one, prepare in advance. Get very clear about what you're going to communicate. Fewer words are clearer. Fewer words give them less ammunition to use against you.
So why are fewer words clear? Well, the more words you give, the more reasons you give, the more excuses you give to the other person. For why you're doing what you're doing, the more ammunition you're giving them to dispute you, to manipulate you, to twist your words, to argue against you.
And if you want to learn more about this, Adam Grant, he's a psychologist out of Wharton, has written a great book called Think Again. Where he talks about the art of communication in really well-researched ways.
But one of the things that he talks about is people who are really successful at persuading other people use fewer arguments, fewer reasons, not more, so prepare. Don't go in to argue. Don't go in with a whole lot of reasons; why you can't do this thing. You're just going to set yourself up for that person to shoot down all of your arguments.
You simply want to communicate very clearly, very simply, the action that you're going to take. Remember, the goal, when you're dealing with people on this side of the spectrum, is not a conversation, it's an outcome. That's a very clear difference.
You're communicating an outcome you've pre-decided. Because you've already recognized this person can't meet you halfway. So you've made a decision and you're there to communicate it, so less is more. Prepare ahead of time and get very clear on what you're going to say, and I'll walk you through some scripts here in a minute.
Step number two relates to what we talked about, again last week, affirm the good. Because presumably you are going to stay in this relationship on some level, but with some very clear boundaries. So you do want to state why you are staying in this relationship. It might be as simple as, "You're my mom, you're my dad, and I care about you."
Maybe you have very little, meaningful relationship with this person, but for whatever reason you're not going to cut them out. So even if you don't state it, you need to know, "Why am I staying in this? What is the reason?"
If it's a co-parent, "You're the father, you're the mother of our children, we've got to make this work." That's it. That's why I'm staying in this and that's it. Now, again, some people, some situations, you might have an ex where you've had to cut off communication altogether. Because their behavior is so toxic and your boundary with them is nothing. You do not talk, you do not communicate, that's a different category.
But, again, in this gray area where you are still in some, sort of, communication. You have to understand, what is the reason? What is the good? What is the common ground that is keeping you in it?
Number three, you're going to tell the truth without making up excuses and without apologizing. You want to stay clear without apologizing. You're going to anchor yourself in the truth of what you've arrived at before God.
You're going to express the conviction, the clarity that you've arrived at with this decision, without apologizing, without making up an excuse. Because when you do that, you put yourself on the defense and you don't want to put yourself on the defense. This is a strong, clear statement of your boundary.
For example, you might say something like, "This is hard, but I've arrived at this conclusion." Or you might say something like, "I get that this might be hard for you, but this is what I've decided." So you can validate that this is hard for them. But "This is what I've decided," and you're clear about it, you're not apologizing for it.
Number four, forget about those "I-statements" we talked about in last week's episode, episode 25. "I-statements' won't work with people who are on the toxic side of the spectrum. They don't really care about how you feel or about why you need to have this conversation.
Instead, what you can do is tell them what you can say YES to in the relationship, and I'm going to clarify what I mean by that in the scripts. But you can clarify the way you will stay in relationship with this person.
Because, number five, you're then going to state the very clear boundary line, the very clear NO. You're not going to propose an alternative. You're not going to use "I-statements". Those work with people on the healthy side of the spectrum.
When you're dealing with people who have toxic patterns of behavior, you are very clear, you're direct, you are telling, you are saying, you are using words, only in so far as to explain the actions you will be taking. This is not an open-ended conversation. You're not asking for permission, you're not inviting feedback, you're saying you're stating, you're clarifying the actions you will be taking.
So, again, number one, prepare; fewer words are clearer. Affirm the good, when possible, the reason you are staying in this relationship for whatever reason. Tell the truth. Don't make up excuses, don't apologize. Name what you can say "Yes" to, if at all possible, and then number five, state the very clear boundary line.
Now, you want to do all this work first, that's what I mean by prepare. It's best if you work through all of these steps first in the privacy of your own heart. Pray through it with God, talk about it with a wise friend or counselor, and then you're going to go in and very simply state what's going to happen. But most, importantly, you're going to back it up with actions.
Here are some examples; you've got a critical or self-centered parent, but they're good with your kids. So you're not cutting off the relationship, altogether, but you're setting some very clear boundaries.
Here's an example of a script; "I want you to enjoy the kids, but I am not going to listen to your criticism of my parenting anymore. If you bring up my parenting again, I will hang up the phone or leave the room. I'm happy to give you updates about what the kids are learning at school, about news, about our family, but that's where the conversation ends."
So that's a tough script. That's a tough thing to say. But listen to what you're doing, you are saying yes to the relationship. You are saying, "I want you to enjoy the kids. You're a good grandparent, you're a good in-law, I'm grateful for that."
But you are clearly defining its limits and you're letting them know, "If you violate this boundary, if you start criticizing me, I'll leave the room, it's over. I'll let you know how the kids are doing, but I'm out."
You haven't made an excuse, you haven't apologized, you've stated very clearly, "This is what's going to happen." And then you have to back up what you've said. You have to back up what you've said with actions. Don't keep saying it. You're not there to convince them. You're not trying to get them to understand. You're not trying to get them to agree.
If they start to criticize you, you'll need to leave the room, excuse yourself from the phone, or stop spending time alone with the person. You can use the Buddy System, you can bring someone else in, you can minimize your one-on-one time with them.
But with your actions you have to show that you mean it. This behavior will no longer be tolerated, if they want to spend time with your kids. So that's an example with a parent that has some toxic ways of criticizing you, of belittling you, of demeaning you.
You're saying "No" to that behavior, and you're saying, "Yes, you can spend time with my kids. You're good with the kids, but this is where this stops. This is where this ends and this is what I'll do."
Now, when you write out this script, you may decide you're going to say it verbatim and read it. You're going to maybe email it.
Maybe you're just going to know it so deeply, within yourself and it's so clear to you, that you're just going to start doing it. There's a lot of different ways you can carry this out, but I want you to have that script ready to go, very clearly defined.
All right, example two, here's a script you can use with someone who manipulates you. Manipulation is a really insidious thing. It can come across as guilt tripping. This other person might, kind of, it sounds good. It's often couched in spiritual language. There's the overt guilt tripping of, "Oh, if you really loved me, you would do this thing for me."
Or, "You'd stop by more often."
Or, "If you really cared about my needs, you wouldn't keep spending time with that other person that I'm jealous of."
Or, "God wouldn't want you to treat me this way. God wants there to be peace. God wants you to forgive me, right." That's manipulation, but that's, also, really overt.
When someone's coming at you that overtly, we can all miss this, especially, if this is the soup you've been cooked in over time. This is the way you've been manipulated your whole life. You can get sucked into this, but that's really overt manipulation, and you've got to set a clear boundary with that.
Oftentimes, it's much more subtle. It might even show up as this sort of quasi vulnerability at first. Your friend, or your parent, or even your adult child, or even your spouse, or your ex, might say things like, "I feel so jealous that you have those friends."
But they're not coming to you in a way that wants to genuinely invite you into conversation, which would be the healthy side of the spectrum. They're sharing that in a way to try to hook you, to try to get you to do what they want you to do.
So you feel bad, you feel guilty, maybe you stop bringing up that area of your life, or you might even stop spending time with that other person. So they've sucked you in to doing what they want you to do.
Maybe they say things like, "I hate it when you're away from me." Instead of saying, "Man, I feel so sad when we don't get to spend time together, and yet I love that you want to do x, y, z. Can we talk about; can we negotiate what those boundary lines might look like in a healthy way?"
Instead, there's sort of a tone of guilt tripping. "Well, I know you're so busy. Oh, I know, it makes me so sad when I don't get to see you. I know you don't really have time for me though." They hook you and you feel bad. And, so, you feel guilted into doing things that maybe you are not called to do. So this is what I mean by a little bit of toxicity.
They're using a strategy to hook you, and it's very different than someone coming to you, very transparently, and saying, "Hey, this is hard for me, can we have a conversation?
I want to honor you, and I want to figure out if there's a way we can work this out together." That's really different. Manipulation, guilt-tripping, it's not relying on logic, it's not relying on objectivity. It's not saying like, "Hey, there's this weird thing that we've got to work through together."
It's trying to tug at where you are probably already a little vulnerable, where you're, probably, already, potentially, a little wounded at where you're already an overly empathetic person. You're already conditioned to be overly thoughtful, overly kind of others, and that person knows that, and they're hooking you. They're hooking you in and trying to use that for their advantage.
So manipulation, I'm calling this manipulation but there's a lot of manifestations of it, is really insidious. It's really easy to get hooked, especially, if you're kind, especially, if you're someone who wants to be a good person.
Before you go into the action item, you've got to do the work first, and, again, that's why we built up to that internal work. Remember, you've got to take a U-turn and ask yourself, first, "Is what I need wrong?"
"Is what I'm asking for wrong?"
"Am I being selfish, by stating a limit, by stating a need, by stating a boundary?" You've really got to do that work with God, yourself, and a few safe people first. And at the end of this episode, I'm going to teach you how to form your own boundaries committee to help you. Because you're going to need it when you're dealing with someone who uses these strategies.
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So here's a script after you've done that work and after you've prepared yourself. Because they're going to come at you with some of those manipulative, guilt-tripping strategies, here's a script you can use.
"I care about you and I appreciate our shared history. I'm doing some work on myself and I'm going to need to shift some things in this relationship. I'm not going to have these conversations with you anymore. I'm happy to continue to talk with you about X, Y, Z." Safe topics and you'll have to do the work and figure out what that is.
Maybe you'll continue to talk with them about the kids. Maybe you'll continue to talk with them about the weather. Maybe you'll continue to talk with them about whatever one safe topic is, but everything else is off limits.
Now, again, you may need to decide this within yourself first. You may not even communicate this. You may just, immediately, move to action, but you've got to know where you're limiting the boundaries of that conversation.
So here's some action steps; you may stop engaging any attempts to talk about your relationship, that's a way people can hook you. "But can't we talk about how to be closer?"
You're not going to have that conversation. You're not going to go there with this person. You are going to limit communication to safe topics. You may decide to send them an email, once a month, with a news update. One-way communication, you're controlling the safe topics. You may decide to only talk about the project you're working on.
But at any point, at which this person tries to bring the conversation to something they're feeling about you, you cut it off. You excuse yourself, you get out of the conversation. You may have to stop responding to texts. You may need to limit one on one phone calls. You may need to only be in conversation with this person, with other people.
So that means using the Buddy System. If you bump into this person, in other areas of life, you can be very polite, you can be very civil. You can say, "Hey, it's good to see you, I hope you're well." Very casual attempts to be kind, but you do not engage in any attempts, on their part, to suck you into a conversation about your relationship.
We have conversations about our relationship with people who are healthy. We negotiate the boundaries of a relationship with people who are healthy. With people who are guilt-tripping, with people who are manipulating, we can't have those conversations anymore.
They're not trying to come at that conversation in a healthy way. And, so, we have to move to one-way communication, where we can say, "Hey, I'm going to stop by, and bring you a cup of coffee, and give you a big hug, and then I'm out."
Maybe that's something you do with a parent or an in-law. You show up, you do one thing, and then you're out. You don't let that conversation get deep. Or, "Maybe we talk about the television shows we both enjoy." And that's where the conversation ends.
Or, "Maybe we talk about the books that we both like to read." And that's where the conversation ends. So this is nuanced, there's one thing or two things that can stay safe, that you can talk about, but everything else you're taking off the table.
And, again, going back to that script, "I care about you and I appreciate our shared history, but I need to work on myself, for a while, and therefore I'm no longer going to have these conversations with you. Here's what I'd love to connect on."
Now, with this person, depending on the level of safety, you may never say that to them because even that they might twist. But you know, it's clear to you, "This is what's off limits. This is what I can do."
Number three, let's say you've got a spouse, a friend, a parent, or an adult child who's engaging in toxic activity. Maybe they're abusing substances. Maybe they're involved in some toxic ways of relating that we've already discussed and you've got to say to them, something to the effect of, here's the script, "I care about you and I am committed to a healthy relationship.
But I will not be around you when this behavior is occurring. The next time you show up drunk, the next time you start to download on me in a toxic way.
The next time you come after me with anger. The next time you behave in this way with my kids, with my spouse, with other people I love. The next time you try to triangulate me."
Which means they try to bring you in to their drama, so you name the behavior, "I'm going to leave. I'm going to excuse myself. I will get off the phone. I will excuse myself from the table. I will leave our conversation. I will not tolerate that behavior. If you can't honor that boundary, I will take even more dramatic steps to remove myself. I want health and I want to be healthy with you, but I will not tolerate that behavior."
Now, if they can honor that, great. But if they can't honor that boundary that you've stated, you've got to be ready to back up those words with actions. You do not keep trying to convince them. You do not keep trying to get them to understand. You give them, maybe, two strikes then they're out.
Maybe you give them one more reminder, "Hey, you just did it. You just went off on me and it's not okay, so, now, I'm excusing myself." Or, "I can tell you've been using, I'm out. I'm not talking to you when you've been using, I'll excuse myself."
Or, "Hey, you just brought up that topic of conversation I said was off limits, I'm out." Now, this is hard to do and I get it. Again, here are the action steps you can take in any of these scenarios. When that clear boundary that you've stated has been crossed. Leave the room when the toxic behavior happens, or when the toxic topics show up, excuse yourself. Don't apologize, "I've got to go."
"I'm getting off the phone now."
"I'm leaving the room."
They know you've told them why. Another strategy, use the Buddy System, stop spending time alone with that person to mitigate that potential for that behavior to happen. Stop responding to a text or to a call when they're in that place.
Stop engaging in any attempts to discuss that behavior. Leave the house if you have to. Just excuse yourself from the table, if you're at a restaurant. If you're married to this person and they show up high, or they show up drunk, or they show up with all this toxicity, and time and time again, you might have to move out.
And if it gets really bad, and if it gets abusive, and if they start escalating, which sometimes toxic people will do, if they're really on that toxic side of the spectrum, you may have to call the police. Especially if you're concerned about anybody's safety, including your own.
Now, remember, if this person protests you don't owe them an explanation. You don't owe them a drawn out conversation. You've tried that, I have no doubt, this is the end of it. You are not saying anything mean or anything cruel. You're actually empowering them to get the help they need to change. It's okay to say nothing after you've said no, after you've excused yourself, after you've gotten yourself out of a toxic conversation.
Setting this boundary doesn't mean you don't care about the other person, it simply means you've started caring more about you. You are not trying to hurt them. This is not punitive, this is not retaliatory, you are simply doing what you need to do to take care of yourself before God.
A final strategy for saying no is what I call or the Bible calls, "Turning the other cheek." Many of you have been taught that turning the other cheek is a way to put up with bad behavior. You might have been taught that turning the other cheek means to look the other way, as if nothing terrible has happened, or to offer yourself up for more pain. That's not what this phrase means.
Here's what Jesus actually said, "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek turn to them the other cheek also." That's from Matthew 5:38-48.
So, for many of you, that verse has been used to suggest that you put up with mistreatment. The idea is that if you turn the other cheek, you will somehow love the offending party into seeing the error of their ways. I lived that way for years, it doesn't work.
That interpretation of what Jesus is saying isn't accurate and it doesn't work, especially, with people who are on the toxic side of the spectrum. Imagine if you have been told to turn the other cheek when your spouse is abusing you, your boss is harassing you, your friend is manipulating you, your child is being bullied, repeatedly, at school. Just take it. Just be the bigger person. Your love can change them, and it's just not the way people tend to work.
In fact, usually, the other person will just continue to take advantage of you or your loved one. It's foolish to pretend otherwise and we know that Jesus was no fool. And we also know, from so many other places in the Bible, that were cautioned to step away from people who are mocking, who are bullying, who are arrogant, who are exploiting you, or who are exploiting other people, that's what Jesus did. Jesus spoke out harshly to abusers and bullies.
So we know there's something going on here with what Jesus said about turning the other cheek, that isn't quite right in how many of us have been told to do it. So I talk about this in chapter six of The Best of You. But I love how theologian N.T. Wright talks about this passage in its historical context. And what he says is this, and this blew my mind and it's going to blow yours.
He said, "To turn the other cheek in that historical context was a subtle but powerful demonstration of strength." In his book, Matthew for Everyone he explained, "That a strike to the right cheek, in that time, was an insult. It was a tactic used to belittle someone who was perceived to be an inferior."
So the Roman soldiers might smack someone they perceived to be inferior on the right cheek. So what recourse is available to that person in that power differential. Someone has power over them, and they're exploiting that power, they're flexing by smacking them on the right cheek.
According to Wright and I quote him here, "Hitting back would only keep the evil in circulation. Offering the other cheek implies, 'Hit me again if you like but now as an equal, not an inferior.'" And you imagine that in your mind.
Where someone's got power over someone else and they smack them, and that person just, it hurts, it stings, and then they turn that other cheek right back toward them saying, "Go ahead, hit me again. Because guess what? You can hurt me a little bit in this moment but you will not take my dignity. You will not take my dignity."
Now, I want to be clear, if you're in an abusive situation and someone's actually hurting you, I don't mean this, literally, don't let them keep hitting you. There's a metaphor here for us in this example.
Seen in this light, turning the other cheek, is a brave counter move. It's not being a doormat, it's the opposite. It's a way of standing your ground and, with actions, communicating, "You will not belittle me. You will not take my dignity." It's countering bullying from a position of strength.
So imagine if someone's berating you. If someone's coming after you and you're standing your ground, and you're not arguing, and you're not growing defensive. And you're just looking at them square in the eye while they're making a fool of themselves. Berating you, coming after you, saying all these terrible things.
They're completely just losing their mind and you're just not taking the bait, and you're standing firm. And maybe at the end of it all, you look them in the eye and you say, "Is there any more where that came from? Do you have more to say to me? Okay, I'm out."
You don't need to honor their temper tantrum, honor their diatribe, honor their foolishness with the dignity of an actual response, you just stand your ground. Maybe you say nothing, and you're showing them with your actions, their own foolishness.
By not taking the bait, by not getting sucked in, you're standing firm in your power. You're so connected to who you are. You're so anchored in your own conviction that you almost put the shame back on them.
It's almost like you imagine yourself with this shield, this beautiful shield all around you, and all their words are coming at you, and they're bouncing off that shield, and guess where they go? They turn right back on them. There's a way, and in your strength, in your quiet confidence, in standing in your conviction and not getting sucked in that, that shame goes back on them, and then you simply walk away.
Turning the other cheek does not mean, "Just keep hurting me, I'll keep taking it." It's a way of standing firm, and strong, and rooted, and confident in the face of mistreatment from a place of inner conviction. And it puts the shame back where it belongs on that other person because this is all about their shame.
This is all about their stuff. They need to work through this. This is not about you and, so, you refusing to engage that is a powerful counter move. And it is hard, and you don't want to do this alone, and you have to be deeply rooted in a strong sense of self.
You're going to need people to come alongside of you, especially, if you're dealing with real evil, with real toxicity. But this is an extremely shrewd, wise, powerful way to quote-unquote, "Turn the other cheek."
You are not giving over your strength. You're saying, "You can't hurt me. I am here to stay and you can slap me again if you want to, but I'm not going anywhere, you cannot take my dignity." When Jesus said to turn the other cheek, He was not advocating for spinelessness nor was He advocating for you to let the offending party off the hook. Instead, He demonstrated, time and again with his actions, a profound way to take a stand.
Anchor yourself in the truth of who you are and the truth of who God is. Stand firm in your conviction, and again, stand firm. And we see this underscored in so many other parts of Scripture. In Ephesians 6:11, where it says "Put on the full armor of God so that you will be able to stand firm." There's this standing firm thing.
1 Peter 5:9 talking about the evil, the evil one who might come at us through these toxic strategies other people are using, but "Resist standing firm in your faith."
1 Corinthians 15:58, "Be steadfast, immovable."
1 Corinthians 16:13, "Stand firm in your faith, be strong." There's this idea of standing strong, standing firm, there's an action in that strength. That it isn't a lot about words, it's not about all the persuasive arguments, it's not getting them to understand. It's letting your strength speak loudest and it's incredibly effective against toxic behaviors.
So we're going to close, today, with this idea of forming a boundaries committee. It's one of my favorite strategies, we talk about it in Boundaries for Your Soul in the chapter on Shame. We talked about the importance of developing a committee of people to help you stand strong. To help you know the truth of who you are, the truth of who God is, and how to say "No" with your words, sometimes, and with this powerful way of standing strong.
You need a couple of people in your life to help you do this, some wise people to come alongside of you. Now, a couple of ways to do that, just right now as you're listening, who are a couple of people who get this?
Who will help you stand strong, who understand this incredibly challenging relationship you have with a parent, with a spouse, with an adult child, with a friend, with a co-parent, with an ex? Who's someone who understands that? And instead of just venting to that person, go to that person and say, "I need you to help me stand strong, I need you to be on my boundaries committee because this is an ongoing thing. I have to continually work at this because I can't cut this person out altogether.
And, so, I'm going to continually have to build this muscle and I need you to help me." And maybe you set up a monthly meeting where you go to them or a quarterly meeting, whatever the frequency is that you need. And you say, "Here's the situation. Here's where they're trying to guilt-trip me. I don't know, is this something I should do or is this something I need to say, "No" to?"
We need people to help us in this work, especially, with these relationships that are in that chronic category. Where there's some good, we are not willing to cut them off, but there's a lot of toxicity and we're susceptible to being sucked in.
Get one person, start with one person, and ask them say "I need you to be on my NO committee. I need you to be on my boundaries committee. I need to have a safe place to come and say, 'Hey, here's what's happening, here's the situation, would you be a second set of eyes and ears to help me see it objectively?
Am I being too tough in this situation? Do I need to bend here or are they getting the best of me? Are they sucking me in? In which case I'm going to need your help to go in and say, 'No, or stand firm, and let my actions speak loudest?'"
Get help, start with one person. Ideally, you'll end up with two or three people where you're going to specifically say, "I need your help in this particular relationship. Help me stand strong. Help me say a healthy NO. I'm going to need some discernment because sometimes I want to be kind to this person.
But a lot of times, boy, do they know how to push my buttons and suck me into something I don't want to do and if I know I've got you there. If I know once a month, once a week, once a quarter, I can come to you with this, it's going to help me stay healthier.
It's going to help me compartmentalize it, so I'm not thinking about it all the time. It's going to help me be a healthier person, in all of these other relationships that I really want to spend my time focusing on."
So consider forming that boundaries committee. Who is someone who will help you with that? Who is someone, maybe it's a counselor, if you don't have a friend. Who is someone who can help you stay on that path of standing firm, of saying no through your wise, anchored actions? Who is that person?
That's your homework for this week? Who brings out the best of you? Who is going to help you stand firm in the face of that toxic relationship? Don't do it alone, get help.
Thank you for joining me on this episode and on this series of Setting Healthy Boundaries in a Biblical Way. There's so much more we could dive into. I can't wait to move into our next series that will be a continuation of this inner work that is so critical to standing firm, to saying, "No" to toxicity and saying "Yes" to the beautiful relationships, the beautiful life that God wants for us.
This week and next week on The Best of You podcast, we're getting into 3 types of "No"-including practical strategies, and scripts, for how to say No in different situations.
First up is how to say no in healthy relationships. This episode is for you if you struggle to set a boundary, state a preference, or honor your own limits **even with people you know would respect you if you did.** It's hard to disappoint people. It's hard to assert honest needs, wants, and preferences when you've been conditioned to please others, fawn, or always put others first. So today we're focusing on how to exercise your "no muscle" even with people you love.
Here's what we discuss:
1. Why learning to say "no" is vital for the the ongoing health of your relationships
2. 5 steps to develop your "no" muscle
3. Why criticism is tempting and how to avoid it
4. How to use "I statements" (and when not to)
5. Scripts for 3 different situations
6. What about when someone says no to you?
7. The hardest category of No I think we all have to face
Resources
- Learn more about the Spectrum of Toxicity and scripts for setting healthy boundaries in The Best of You by Dr. Alison Cook
- Get my free Boundaries Kickstart Guide
- Resources for support
Thanks to our sponsor Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Transcript
Alison: Hey everyone, Welcome back to The Best of You podcast. I am so glad you keep coming back each week. To learn more about this work of establishing healthy boundaries and all of these different things we're diving into that relate to this topic.
I have so appreciated, again, your comments, your feedback, the reviews, you've been leaving on Apple, on Spotify. All the reviews you've been leaving on Amazon, related to my book, The Best of You, it just means so much to hear from you and to read about how the podcast, how the book is helping you, the questions that you have.
It helps me just feel encouraged to continue to go deeper and deeper into some of these topics. Every week I'm trying to expand and go a little more deeply, especially, in this series called Boundaries in the Bible. We're really drilling deep into what it means to do this work inside of yourself first.
To get really clear, to get really centered on the inside of you. So that you know what your convictions are. You know what you need to protect. You know what's valuable to you. You know what matters to you. You know those key relationships, those core values, those desires that you want to move toward, in partnership with God.
You've done the work you've discerned and now, inevitably, we bump up against obstacles and challenges, even in the healthiest relationships in our lives. Where we have to have hard conversations. We have to say no from time to time. In some instances, we have to say no and or we have to negotiate the boundary lines.
And, so, that brings us to today's episode. We've talked through some of these bigger picture themes, and today I really want to get into brass tacks. So we're going to get into three types of NO that you have to say, that we all have to say in life.
It would be so nice if we could just waltz through life and agree with everything that everybody else wants for us. But it doesn't work that way. Again, even in our healthiest of relationships, we have to learn to really pay attention before God. To what we need to say "Yes" to and, inevitably, that will mean we have to say some "Nos" in our life.
And, so, I want to get into three categories, three types of NO. Based on the spectrum of toxicity we talked about in episode 24, last week. So these different ways of saying no relate to where this relationship, where the patterns of behaviors that this person has demonstrated, over time, fall on that spectrum of toxicity.
Because depending on where that person's behaviors fall on that spectrum, you are going to insert your, No, you're going to insert your boundary in a different way. All right, so here we go, let's get started. Number one, in today's episode, the first category of NO I want to touch on, is this category of saying NO in your healthy relationships. Now, it's such a different thing to go to someone you love, someone you trust, someone you have a really incredible history with and say, "No".
Sometimes this is a hard NO to say because we love this other person. We don't want to disappoint this person. But because of the demands on our time, because of our own limitations, because of the way God is leading you.
You sometimes find yourself in the position of having to say "No" to good things. To otherwise healthy things. We can't say "Yes" to everything. And, so, this first category is how do we say "No" in a healthy way because we want to honor the other person.
We want to honor the relationship. It might be honoring an organization. We might want to honor a work colleague, a boss that we respect. We want to show respect, but we still have to say "No" and for many of us you struggle with this. Because you're very empathetic, you have a kind heart, you never want to disappoint other people.
Maybe your conditioning has taught you that it's wrong to disappoint other people. That you should bend yourself into contortions to always say "Yes" and, so, you've just learned that. And, so, you don't even know how to develop this NO muscle even in a healthy relationship.
But here's the thing, if you don't learn how to say NO in your healthy relationships, you risk becoming resentful. You risk introducing unhealthy into a relationship that has potential to be really healthy.
It's a paradox, so in many ways, you are learning how to say NO. You're learning how to honor your limits in a respectful way, is the best thing you can do for the long-term, ongoing, sustainable health of this relationship.
Here are some examples; let's say your spouse really loves to spend the holidays with his family and this is challenging for you. You love your spouse. You love how much he loves his family or she loves her family, but there's a cost to you.
This happens, again, even in the healthiest of relationships, the people we love, and who are healthy, and who want the best for us still have blind spots. And, so, if you've been going along and doing this and, all of a sudden, you're starting to notice resentment.
You're starting to notice, "I don't want to do that this holiday." You've got to learn how to speak up for yourself in a healthy way. So that all that anger doesn't mount, doesn't pile up on the inside of you, and then it comes out in an unhealthy way.
Another example is maybe you have a friend who loves to travel, who loves to eat out. Maybe she loves to spend a lot of money, maybe she has more time on her hand, maybe she just prioritizes her time and money in a different way. You can't, or don't want to, or maybe you don't have the money to spend all this time traveling, going to expensive dinners.
There are ways in which you prioritize differently. You love this friend, you cherish your friendship. But maybe you need to figure out a way to let her know that you're going to have to do things a little bit differently. You're going to have to say some NOS.
Another example, your colleague or maybe your church wants you to take on a new responsibility that you don't have capacity for. You love this organization. You love this person asking you, you want to be there for them. But the truth is if you say yes to them, you're goin to jeopardize your own health, your own family, other commitments that are really important to you.
So the point is, we have to learn to set boundaries to say NO, even in our healthy relationships. And, again, if you've struggled with people-pleasing, with codependency or you were conditioned to always put other people first. This can be challenging to assert your preferences even with people who are probably going to honor that NO.
So again, first of all, you have to do that inner work that we've been talking about. You have to start paying attention to those little messages that creep into your mind that say things like, "It's okay, just take one for the team. Just do it again. It won't hurt anybody."
Just start paying attention, if you're someone who's been conditioned to always say "Yes", to always put the other people first. Start to pay attention and just try. Try exercising your NO muscle. Here's how to do that, now, again, this is for your healthy relationships. You're going to use a different strategy with folks who are more on the toxic side of that spectrum.
So this is for a relationship that, for the most part, you're discerning. You're saying, "This is someone I actually think will respect my NO." And, so, I'm really aware so many of you will say that to me, like, "I know that they'll be okay with it. I can't get myself to do it."
And I got to tell you, guys, I have been there and sometimes I still find myself in this position of saying "Yes" to someone who would have respected my NO, and it was because of me. It was because I just let my conditioning, I let that people-pleasing part of me get the best of me.
So here's how to do it, and I'm adapting this from chapter six of The Best of You, start with YES. What is the YES you need to say to yourself? That means you're going to have to say this NO. This goes back to episodes 21 and 22, where we talked about what is a promise you have made to yourself?
What is a promise you have made to yourself that is important to you? That is going to get you over the hump of saying, "You know what, I think I need to say no to this. I need to exercise my NO muscle."
Number two, don't go into it with criticism. Sometimes those of us who we have to almost get into a fight response inside of us to say no, even in a healthy situation. And, so, we're tempted to go in, kind of, mad at the other person for even asking this of us.
But you know what, sometimes even the best of people they don't know. They don't know what you've got on your plate. They don't know what you've committed to, and I noticed that, again, to be transparent, in myself.
I'll get frustrated with someone I really love. Who I know wants the best for me, and I'm like, "Why are they asking this of me? They know it's hard for me to say "NO." And then I have to remind myself, "It's my job to say the NO. It's not their job to read my mind."
Now, listen, if someone has asked you over and over, and they're blatantly disregarding the NO you've already said. Then, yes, that's a red flag we're getting into the toxic category, where you have to use a different strategy.
But in this category of no, remember, we're talking about people who are, for the most part, you've discerned, "They would respect my NO." And I'm just putting that out there because I see it in myself, I see it in my clients, I see it in my friends.
We'll all say, "Man, I'm frustrated with this person." But they haven't actually done something wrong in this situation. I'm frustrated because I'm invited to have courage. I'm invited to grow. I'm invited to be more assertive and that's hard for me. So we have to start looking at that as an invitation versus a reason to be frustrated with someone else, who doesn't know better. Again, on this healthy side of the spectrum.
So you're going to start with, YES. You're going to work with that frustrated part of you, that you've got this invitation to do a hard thing to grow, to challenge yourself. And then closely related to that, number three, you're going to affirm the good. You're going to force yourself to see the good, the shared value, the common ground.
Because you're going to go into this conversation, again, with this healthy person by affirming the good because that always helps things go better. When you can affirm the good when you can find the common ground.
So number three, you're going to affirm the good. You're going to figure out the common ground. And then number four, you're going to use what I call- "I- statements." Now, "I-statements" I go through in detail in chapter nine on Negotiation, in The Best of You.
Again, "I-statements" work very well within healthy relationships. They're well researched, they're very effective, but here's the caveat, they do not work with people who are showing toxic patterns of behavior. They won't work there. So a lot of people come to me and they're like, "But I tried to use my 'I-statement' and this person twisted it and used it against me."
And I'm like, "Exactly." Their one strategy they work within the context of healthy relationships. They work with people who really want to honor you, who want to respect you, people who are doing their own work. So, again, remember we are talking, right now, about folks who, for the most part, show behaviors that are on that healthy side of the spectrum.
So, What is an "I-statement"?
An "I-statement" is just what it sounds like, you start by looking at yourself. You lead with an "I-statement" versus a "You-statement". And I go through this process in-depth, step-by-step, including fill in the blanks with you, in chapter nine of The Best of You.
But, essentially, an "I-statement" would start with something to the effect of, "I sometimes feel frustrated, or overwhelmed, or exhausted when we spend five days at your parents' house over Christmas." And, again, we want to affirm the good. So in that script, we would first start with an affirmation of good, then go into the "I-statement".
But here's the thing, it's so different to say, "Sometimes I get really frustrated or overwhelmed, when we have to spend a lot of time with this particular family member." Maybe you're saying this to a spouse versus going to them and saying, "You don't care about me. You always drag me to spend all this time with your family."
That would be a "You-statement." A "You-statement" is pointing the finger at someone else, it's criticizing them, it's assuming they're doing something to hurt you. An "I-statement" is just simply saying, "Hey, this is what happens inside of me when we do this. When this decision is made, as a result of this behavior."
And, so, it's taking that other person off the hot seat and saying, "I need you to know this is what goes on inside of me." Again, remember, this only works with people who are, for the most part, healthy. Because someone who's not healthy doesn't care what happens inside of you.
But with someone who really loves you, a healthy spouse, a healthy parent, a healthy friend. You going to them and saying, "Hey, I need you to know this is something that goes on inside of me and, so, can we please revisit how we go about doing this thing?" It's a really great way to start that conversation.
Finally, last thing, you've started with YES. You've gotten to figure out what you need inside of yourself first. Number two, you're not going to criticize. Number three, you're going to affirm the good. Number four, you're going to use an "I-statement."
Number five, propose an alternative. Come to the table with a positive proposal. Suggest an alternative. It's just a great way to honor this other person. Now, again, with a healthy person. Sometimes you won't have a proposed alternative, this, especially, works great with spouses. Sometimes you're just going to say NO in a really nice way.
But sometimes it's really helpful to propose an alternative. All right, those are the steps. Start with the YES, don't criticize the other person for asking or for putting you in this position. Assuming the best of them, especially, if they're someone who's shown a consistent pattern of health to you over time. Affirm the good. Use "I-statements", and propose an alternative.
So you've taken your notes, those are the steps, again, with healthy people. What does that look like in a real script?
***
So here are some scripts to help you through that. In the case of, we're coming into the holidays, you've got to plan your holidays with your spouse. Start with the YES you've figured out in yourself. What you've decided in yourself is, "It brings out the worst in me to spend day after day with my in-laws. I can't do it. I've got to do it differently this year."
You've done that work. You've journaled, you've processed with a safe person, you've talked to God. You know you've got to do something differently this year. You've now got to approach the conversation with your spouse. Don't criticize, start with the good.
For example, "I love how loyal you are to your family. I want to support your relationship with your parents. I want to support you in your relationship with your siblings." Whatever it is that you can affirm, start with that. Give them the benefit of the doubt. You have immediately disarmed them by saying, "This is a great quality." Whatever it is that you can genuinely say in this scenario.
So you start with the good, here's the thing, and then you get into your "I-statement." "I can get really overwhelmed and, frankly, even a little bit depressed if I'm stuck in the house all day, for a couple of days. I feel trapped. It's nothing against you, it's nothing against them, this is just what goes on inside of me."
You've used an "I-Statement." You've really been clear about what's hard for you. So you're going to then move into proposing an alternative. Maybe you ask a question, "Would you be open to discussing a revised schedule for the day?"
For example, "I'd love to spend a couple of hours, with your parents, over a meal. But then what I'd like to do is excuse myself and go do something else for a while." And you're just making a proposal for, "This is what I need."
Or you might say something like, "I'd like us to consider staying in a hotel this year. So that we can go to your parents, but when I'm feeling overwhelmed, or trapped, or stuck, I have a getaway. I can excuse myself and you can stay, that's fine."
Or maybe, "We together decide, 'This is where the limit is and we're going to leave together.'"
Or maybe, "I'll take the kids and do something." There's lots of different room for negotiation there. But the point is you're proposing some suggested possibilities that honor their desire to be with their parents and your need to limit that time.
You're negotiating. You're being assertive. You're saying, "I want to honor you and I also need to honor myself. I'll show up in a far more healthy, generous way, with your family, if I've put some boundaries around it." Do you see how all of that is fairly positive? There's very little criticism there. You're honoring someone else and you're also honoring yourself.
Here's another example; the friend who maybe wants to spend more money than you do or wants to do things that you don't really want to do. Again, get clear in your mind about what you can say "Yes" to. What you want to say "Yes" to and, therefore, where you're going to have to set the boundary.
It might go something like this, start by affirming the good. "I love how exuberant you are. I love your zest for life that you want to eat out and take trips, and I really enjoy hearing about your adventures and I get so much from our friendship.
Here's the thing, I have a different capacity, I really love staying home. I really love a simpler life. I don't like traveling that much or I really love to save money, and that's not where I want to spend my money.
I just want you to know that I'm not going to do these expensive dinners anymore. I'm not going to go to these expensive shows.
I love that you love to do them, it's not my thing. I appreciate that you've invited me. I just want you to know this because I value you and I want you to know that I honor this part of you, and it doesn't work as well for me. So let's figure out the things that we actually enjoy, both of us, doing together."
Again, that was a little long-winded. I'm speaking this out because sometimes, and you can read the script in a book. The scripts that I give you in the book are a lot tighter and cleaner. But, sometimes, when we're talking to a friend we're working it out in real time.
We're really trying to make sure they understand that we want to honor them and we're going to honor our own limits. And we're going to honor our own needs, and we're going to honor our own desires for how we spend our time, our money, our treasure, and our weekends.
It can also work in the reverse. So, for example, maybe you have a friend or a family member with whom you really long for more consistency. Maybe you feel like they blow you off, that they're irregular, they're inconsistent, and it stirs up anxiety in you.
And, so, in a way, the NO that you're saying is to their inconsistency, and what you're inviting them into is more consistency. This is also a way of establishing a healthy boundary, of asserting yourself, of speaking up for yourself. It's less about saying NO and it's more about saying the YES, and requesting what you need from that friend.
But, again, if we're dealing with someone who is, for the most part, healthy, this is a conversation you can have. It takes courage, but here's one way you might do that. Again, affirm the good; "I love our friendship. I love to be more intentional about how we spend time together. Are you open to a conversation about how we could connect more regularly?"
Maybe, "I'm someone who just loves structure. What if we could schedule a weekly walk and talk? Where we go for a walk and chat?"
Or if they live far away, "What if we could schedule a monthly Zoom or FaceTime? What if we could schedule a quarterly check-in?" Depending on the nature of the friendship and the relationship, you're, essentially, asking them to meet you in the middle ground.
"I'm not asking you to reach out to me every day, I am asking for consistency. Because what's really hard, for me, what I'm saying NO to is this erratic showing up." And you find out, and maybe they're like, "I've never thought about that. I never really thought about things that way, but sure, yes, let's do a quarterly call.
Let's do a quarterly FaceTime and really enjoy that time together. Let's do a monthly call or let's do a weekly walk. Let's get coffee once a week or every two weeks." So you're meeting in the middle. You're negotiating what you need and what you want out of that relationship, in a way that honors that other person.
Now, again, that's using an "I-statement".
"I love structure."
"I love consistency, and no criticism of you." You don't have to say that but that's what you're conveying in your tone.
Now, a "You-statement would be like, "You're inconsistent."
"You make me anxious."
"You're not a good friend." And that's never going to be a great way to start off a negotiation conversation, a NO conversation with a healthy relationship. Nobody wants to be put on the defense.
Now, here's the thing, as we wrap up this category of NO with healthy people, you might get a NO in response. That friend who's inconsistent, might come back and say, "That doesn't work for me, I can't do it that way. I love you, but it's never going to work for me."
And you have to figure out how to honor that, and maybe that means you're going to have to distance a little bit from that friend. Not to punish them but to protect yourself. Sometimes people say NO to what we ask for.
Maybe that friend who loves to go out for dinner all the time, is going to be disappointed because you're saying, "I'm not going to be your dinner buddy. I'd love to be your walking buddy or whatever it is. I'd love to be your book club buddy, but I'm not going to be your dinner buddy." And maybe they're a little disappointed with that.
Again, assuming that they're, for the most part, healthy, you can honor their disappointment and empathize with it, even. "I get that, that's disappointing. I wish I could be that friend, it's not going to be the best way for me to show up in this relationship."
And, again, if they're healthy, they'll learn to respect that. I've had this happen time and again. I've done this over and over again, in my friendships. You can ask my friends and maybe it makes me a little weird, but I'll say to them, "I love structure. I need to put us on a system. Let's figure out the structure that works for us."
There's some trial and error that works with that. Maybe someone is like, "I can tell they're going to start texting me every day. I'm not a texter, I don't like texting." I'm just putting it out there, that's not my thing. And, so, instead of saying, "Stop texting me." I say, "Hey, let's figure out a rhythm that works for both of us. How about we try a weekly walk and talk?"
Where we don't live in the same state, we take a walk, we get on the phone together. So I try to be open, and creative, and curious about what's going to work. "I value this friend. I've decided I want some regularity with this friend. What works for both of us?" So you leave it up to some trial and error, and you figure out a rhythm that works.
Same with your spouse. "I want to date night, he likes to fly by the seat of his pants." How do you negotiate something that works for both of you? Use these principles, I'm going to walk through them one more time.
I go through them, in detail, in both chapter six and chapter nine of The Best of You in a much more linear scripted fashion. You're getting me talking it out in real time, in this podcast episode. But start with the YES. Start with the thing that you need, that starts from inside of you, and that'll keep you.
That'll help you from, number two, criticizing them for not knowing what you need or the boundary that they've tripped over. Maybe, inadvertently, they've tripped over one of your boundaries. You know what it is, so you work to not be critical of them. You work with that part of you that's tempted to do that.
Number three, affirm the good, find the common ground. This is what we have in common; we want to be in relationship with each other, we value each other, we value time together. And then, number four, use "I-statements" to communicate what you're feeling isn't working. And it's not, "I feel like what you're doing isn't working."
It's, "This is what happens inside of me as a result of this behavior, and it's no criticism on you. It's just I need you to know this is what happens inside of me." And then, lastly, propose an alternative. Propose a couple of alternatives. "Can we even have a conversation about what might work better?" Again, with a healthy person, you can have that conversation.
And then have fun figuring that out. Again, this is all in that healthy side of the spectrum of toxicity.
Now I'm going to touch on this middle category, what I call chronic. It's where there is some good and there's also very real limitations, maybe, even a little toxicity. I believe this is the hardest category of NO to say.
This second category, saying NO to folks where there's some good, you don't want to cut them out of your life entirely. You don't feel like that's the right thing to do. There might even be some good in the relationship, but there's also some toxicity. This is a hard category. It might be a person where there's a lot of good, but there's some limitations. In terms of what they can do and bring, and how much they're doing their own work.
It might be a person you feel some responsibility to, such as a parent, an adult child, or another family member, maybe, a friend with whom you have a long history. But they have some really challenging qualities and some really challenging patterns of behaviors, that do not seem likely to change.
Maybe it's a co-parent, you've divorced but they're helping you parent your child. And, so, you're in relationship with this person. Maybe it's a work colleague, someone who goes to your church who is really challenging for you, but you're part of the same community. I think this is the hardest category of NOS to say.
And with that teased up, we're going to pause here and we're going to circle back, next week, to the second and third category of NO where actions speak far louder than words. So we're going to go into that next week. We're going to get into some of these more sophisticated skills where communication, verbally, is not the primary strategy.
In fact, communicating with words actually is not wise and you're going to need to lead with very clear actions. You may use some words, but for the most part, it's your actions that are going to work.
We're going to get into that in next week's episode. It's the last episode in this series, on How to Set Healthy Boundaries in a Biblical Way. And I'm also going to answer the question; what about turning the other cheek? Which, as it turns out, is a very sophisticated strategy you can use with folks who are more on this toxic side of the spectrum of toxicity.
So this week, practice using your NO muscle in your healthy relationships. I want you to practice saying NO where there's some low-hanging fruit. Where there's someone who, for the most part, you're like, "This person's going to get it. It's hard, I'm going to have a hard time having this conversation."
But I want you to practice writing a script, affirming the good, using your "I-statement", proposing an alternative, practice it with the safest person you can think of. That's how you begin to develop this NO muscle.
You don't start with your hardest situation. It's like going to the gym; you don't start with the heaviest weights. You start where you know you can get some success. So practice using that NO muscle in a safe context this week.
Use those principles I talked through in this episode today. Check chapter six and chapter nine of The Best of You. Where I walk you through those things in details, including some fill-in-the-blank exercises. Practice with the low-hanging fruit.
Next week we're going to come back, where we're getting more to where there's some toxicity, and even some major toxicity on that side of the spectrum where actions are going to speak loudest. Where you're going to have to get to some next level skills on how to say "No" in more toxic situations.
I've also got a really cool strategy, that has nothing to do with saying "No" to other people that I can't wait to share with you next week. It's something I've done in my own life to help me and it really works, and it's the fun part of this.
This is all really hard, so we've got to have a fun part of how to do this work, of saying "No" in a healthy way, in a respectful way, but in a way that does not let other people get the best of you. Thank you for joining me. I can't wait to come back and finish out this conversation and this series next week.
Today on The Best of You podcast, we're diving into how to discern toxic vs. healthy patterns of behavior. There is no one-size fits all when it comes to setting healthy boundaries. It requires discernment and wisdom; strategy and skill. That's why it's so important to understand what I call the Spectrum of Toxicity. I also weigh in on the topic of evil (a topic so many of you have asked me about!)
Here's what we cover:
1. What is toxicity? How does it relate to what the Bible calls evil?
2. What about people who are consistently choosing to do harm?
3. The spectrum of toxicity
4. Behaviors that show up on the healthy side of the spectrum
5. Behaviors that show up on the toxic side of the spectrum
6. The key ingredient that distinguishes health from toxicity
7. The best way to become a discerning, wise (& healthier) person.
8. What does the Bible say about toxicity?
Resources
- Learn more about the Spectrum of Toxicity and scripts for setting healthy boundaries in The Best of You by Dr. Alison Cook
- The Screwtape Letters, by C.S. Lewis
- People of the Lie, by M. Scott Peck
- Live No Lies, by John Mark Comer
- The evolution from Tom Riddle to Voldemort is demonstrated in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince, by J.K. Rowling
- Surprised by Hope, by N.T. Wright
- Romans 1:24-25 The Message
- Romans 1:28-32 The Message
- Proverbs 5:9 The Message
- Proverbs 14:7 The Message
- Matthew 10:16
- Resources for support
Thanks to our sponsor Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.
Transcript
Alison: Welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast. I am so glad you're here and I want to thank you so much for your comments and questions every week. But especially about last week's episode on Sin and Woundedness, and how those two things go together. That's such an important topic and I so appreciated hearing from you.
Several of you asked me what is the best way to get me your feedback on a specific episode? And the best way to do that is to go to the episode webpage on my website at dralisoncook.com/podcast. Each episode has its own page, and you'll find a place there to leave comments, you can interact with others. You can also visit the episode post on my Instagram or Facebook Feed. It's @dralisoncook both places and leave a comment.
I can't respond to all emails or comments, but I try to read as many as possible to get a sense of what your questions are. So I do take into account all the questions and comments I'm getting from you. And today's episode, a big chunk of it comes out of several questions that you sent me.
So I appreciate that so much, thank you for listening, thank you for engaging. I am so grateful for this opportunity to just connect with you in this way.
So far in this series on Boundaries and the Bible, we've been laying a foundation about how to first connect to yourself. The importance of making a promise to yourself. The importance of learning how to even know, deep inside yourself, what you need, what you want.
Maybe when one of your boundaries has been violated, it's hard, as I say a million times. It's an incredibly hard to set healthy boundaries with other people, if you don't know what you need to say yes to in your own life, in your own soul, in your own work of healing first.
So we've really been laying this foundation. Last week we went into looking at our areas of wounding, even at our areas of sin, where we might be tempted to react out of our hurt instead of respond in a healthy way. So we've been really doing this inner work.
Well, today, it's finally time, we're going to start to look externally, to the patterns of behavior that are around us in the other people in our lives. So finally today, we're going to get into how we can understand those behaviors that come our way, and how we can be wise in responding to other people's behaviors. Whether it's toxicity or even healthy people, who are behaving in a way that we need to address.
So here are a couple of thoughts that a few of you shared with me, after last week's episode, and they lead into today's episode. So I want to read them out loud to you. Austin wrote in and said it reminded him of a quote, and this is the quote, we're trying to figure out who said this. So if anyone knows please leave a comment. But the quote is, "We are more wounded than wicked." And I thought that was a really great way to summarize last week's episode.
Yes, we have to pay attention to the sin in our lives. But as we consistently move toward health, move toward healing, turn away from those impulses, we become more healthy. And, yes, we'll still have wounds, but we're going to move away from this word, "Wickedness". We're going to get into that today.
Here's another question that came my way that I want to get into today, what about evil? So a few of you left me notes with questions like these, after last week's episode.
"How does this idea of woundedness apply to narcissists and even sociopaths? Do we still think of them as wounded, or is there a point at which someone is simply acting out of sheer malice?" That's a great question, and it raises this topic of what I'm going to call evil.
So if we're mostly wounded and mostly sinning, as a result of woundedness. And we're constantly working to notice where we've been wounded, where we might be tempted to miss the mark, there's hope.
There's so much hope. There's hope for healing. There's hope that we can become increasingly healthy. There's hope that we can continue to show compassion for ourselves, for our loved ones, as we are on this journey that we'll never fully achieve.
We're never going to fully become the healthiest, best version of ourselves this side of heaven. But we can certainly become more and more, and more healthy. So there's a lot of hope right in that message.
But in this question, that a few of you sent me, there's this idea of, but what about people who are consistently choosing to do harm? They're not turning away, as we talked last week, they're not repenting or just turning away from sin. They're not turning toward this work of healing.
They're instead doing the opposite. They're consistently turning toward going their own way. They're consistently turning toward these acts of destruction, these acts of harm, these acts of taking matters into their own hands.
It's a series of choices over time that gets so destructive, that there's very little goodness left. And we do see this, and I don't want to be naive, there are folks, and let's pray first and foremost, that we are not these people.
There are folks who are so consistently choosing the path of sin. The path away from healing. The path away from facing wounds honestly, before God, that they begin to move in the opposite direction. They're moving away from health and moving toward increasing levels of toxicity.
Now, we use this word toxicity a lot, and if you think about the word toxicity, it means poisonous. If you ingest a toxic substance, it's poison to your body. Similarly, to our psyches, to our souls, if we expose ourselves to toxicity, it is soul-killing. And really, another word for this, or the biblical word for this, or the spiritual word for this is evil. There is a father of lies. There is a father of toxicity.
So I'm not going to get into a theology of evil in this episode. It's outside of the scope really of my expertise, although I do believe it exists and I do believe that we don't want to be naive about it. A couple of books, and I'll link to these in the show notes.
That if you're interested to learn more you might consider The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis. The People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck, it's an excellent book. And a more recent book called Live No Lies by John Mark Comer.
But there's a really great example of this in a lot of literature. In the Narnia Tales we see this. In Lord of the Rings we see this. If you're a Harry Potter fan, there's a really vivid description of this process, in the sixth book where we see this dark Lord Voldemort who is the epitome of evil, in the movie. He's the bad guy, he's the destructive force, he's gone completely toxic.
But in the sixth book, they show him as a young boy and you get this sense of the million tiny decisions this boy made. Sure he was wounded. Sure there was pain there.
He's smart, he's fascinated by power, he's fascinated by danger, and instead of moving toward healing. You see him, they depict him making a series of decision, after decision, after decision of choosing the dark path instead of moving toward healing.
So there's a series of choices, and as a psychologist, I see this from time to time. I'll see a life, someone who had options, they had opportunities. But they make a million tiny steps toward not facing their shame honestly, not facing their wounds honestly. Blaming other people, going after other people, lying, covering up, deceiving, and it becomes increasingly and increasingly toxic.
And I want to say to those of you who are saying, "What about a sociopath?" Yes, a sociopath, who knows, was there a wound there at the very beginning? Probably. At what point did that person just choose over and over again to move toward darkness. To move away from the healthy, beautiful work of healing that God wants us to move toward and move toward the opposite of that, which is toxicity.
At whatever point that became so toxic that there's no hope left, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. As a psychologist I'm always going to hold out hope, but I don't want us to be naive.
And I want to give you just two examples; one from Theologian N.T. Wright and one from a Bible passage that I think speak to this, again, in the interest of not being naive. So here's an example from theologian N.T. Wright, how he talks about this phenomenon.
It's from his book, Surprised by Hope, page 182, and basically what Wright says is this, "It is possible for human beings so to continue down this road, so to refuse all whisperings of good news. All glimmers of true light. All promptings to turn and go the other way. All signposts to the love of God that they can." And I quote him here, "Progressively cease to reflect the image of God, right?"
So he's kind of talking about this, that these million choices to go in the wrong direction. To keep moving away from God's path, from becoming the best of who we are, that in Wright's words, "That person can progressively cease to reflect the image of God."
Now, the Scripture passage, that comes to mind, that underscores what Wright is saying, is from Romans 1:24-32. And I'm going to quote it from the Message version, which is Eugene Peterson's modern-day version of this passage.
And here's the quote, speaking about this kind of person, this is the quote from Scripture, "So God said, in effect, 'If that's what you want that's what you get.' It wasn't long before they were living in a pig pen, smeared with filth, filthy inside and out. And all this because they traded the true God for a fake God, and worshiped the God they made instead of the God who made them, the God we bless, the God who blesses us."
And then the Message goes on to say, quote, "Worse followed, refusing to know God they soon didn't know how to be human either. Since they didn't bother to acknowledge God, God quit bothering them and let them run loose. And then all hell broke loose, rampant evil, grabbing and grasping, vicious backstabbing, they made life hell on earth, with their envy, killing, bickering, and cheating."
And it goes on and on to describe, again, this type of person. That essentially in Eugene Peterson's words, God is kind of saying, "Turning them loose. If that's what you want, then here's what you get."
We do reap what we sow on some level, and if we choose again and again to cover over our woundedness, to cover over our shame, through all of these things that are just listed.
Through grabbing and grasping, through backstabbing, through hurting other people, through projecting onto other people, we are going to become less and less like that beautiful soul that God made us to become. And we're going to become a really terrible, toxic person.
So it's not a pleasant topic. I don't love talking about this, but it's a reality, we need to be wise, we need to not be naive. And the point is, I don't want to minimize the reality that some people turn so consistently towards sin, toward destruction. That at some point it's hard to find any glimmer of goodness.
A couple of points I want to make, I don't think this is common, it's very real. I don't think it's our job to try to discern when someone has crossed over to that point of no return, I don't know when that is. It's not something I'm comfortable trying to sort out.
I'm always going to hold out hope that somebody can turn back toward God. I don't think that's my job. But I do think it's our job to discern how someone else's consistent patterns of behavior, over time, are impacting us and I do think it's our job to protect ourselves.
Remember boundaries are about protecting you. They're not about analyzing, changing, condemning, judging, criticizing, or figuring out someone else, they're about being wise. So this brings us to what I call the spectrum of toxicity, and I spell this out in chapter six of The Best of You. And I think it's critical to understand in this work of setting healthy boundaries. So let's get into the spectrum of toxicity.
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So as you consider your own relationships, you need to recognize that healthy behavior and toxicity exist on a spectrum. Very few people are totally toxic, as I already said, and no one is entirely healthy. This means that the work of setting healthy boundaries requires nuance and skill. You don't want to come down with a hammer on a behavior, when a fly swatter is what's needed.
You also don't want to let someone who is using toxic strategies get the best of you. We can err to both extremes when it comes to setting healthy boundaries with other people's behaviors.
Now, remember sometimes we're setting healthy boundaries just by saying, "No", no one's done anything wrong. But today we're really talking about what do we do when someone else's behaviors start to impact us in a negative way, and we need to push back. We need to bring in those boundaries to address that situation. We need to tighten up those guardrails.
Sometimes when someone else's behavior hurts us or causes us to get activated, sometimes grace is needed. Sometimes that's what's needed. Sometimes you need to speak up for yourself. You need to be assertive, you need to advocate for yourself, and sometimes it wouldn't be safe to speak up for yourself. That would actually give the other person more ammunition.
So those are three examples of where we have to know what we're dealing with. What we know, number one, is something happened. "I've been hurt. Something is going on I don't like. Something is harming me. Something is going on in this relationship that I need to address." We've got to know what we're dealing with, so we can approach that instance in a strategic, wise way.
So how do you gauge what response is required? Well, first, you have to assess where your particular situation falls on this spectrum of toxicity.
So let me explain what I mean by that to you. Imagine a half circle and on one end of the spectrum, on the far right hand of the spectrum, are people who are mostly healthy. On the other end of that spectrum, all the way to the left side of that spectrum, are people who are mostly toxic, and that's what I mean by a spectrum.
Most of us fall in that upper, hopefully, we're mostly healthy. We're more toward healthy, somewhere right up in the middle of your, imagine an arrow that cuts that half circle in half. Someone's kind of right on the edge, there's a little bit of toxicity, but there's some health. We want to stay on that healthy side of the spectrum.
So what qualities do we see in the behaviors of people who are on the healthy side of that spectrum? Well, these are people who are taking responsibility for their own behaviors. It's not that these are people who don't get things wrong, who don't make mistakes, who might not hurt you from time to time, but they know how to take personal responsibility.
They can have a conversation about ruptures or conflicts that might have occurred in a healthy way. They can honor that they might have blind spots, there's humility. They can consider the possibility that they might have made a mistake. There's room for conversation.
They can apologize when they've made a mistake. Bottom line is people who are behaving in a healthy way are not perfect people. But they are people who are doing the work of taking responsibility for their own actions.
They can communicate, you can talk things through, they can apologize, there's humility. In general, there's a posture of kindness, they're not cruel, they're not coming after you when they've done something wrong.
We see the fruit of God's Spirit. We see self-control, we see patience. We begin to see more of those types of qualities in someone who's on the healthy side of that spectrum. Again, not perfection, but personal responsibility.
Then we get to the middle part of that spectrum. Where I was saying someone who's got some of those healthy qualities. But they're also sometimes committing boundary fouls in a consistent way.
This might be a parent, an in-law, who genuinely cares about you, who genuinely cares about your children. But at the same time she does some things that are annoying. Maybe she doesn't respect your rules, they're not toxic, but it's challenging.
You're constantly having to say, "Hey, mom. Hey dad, you can't do that when you're with my kids." Maybe you have a friend who's pretty self-centered and they're often talking about themselves.
They're not cruel, they look out for you in certain ways, but you're never really going to be able to get them to hear you. They're not someone you're going to turn to when you need emotional support. That's what I mean by they're healthy for the most part. They're not cruel, they're not hurting you, but maybe there's some limitations there because of some of their own un-faced wounds.
Maybe it's a friend who likes to gossip and you love that friend, but, man, you're always having to steer the conversation away from that gossiping part of her. Again, these are folks who aren't toxic, but there might be a limit to how deep you can go with this type of person. And sometimes we find ourselves in this category.
Sometimes there are parts of us where we haven't done enough work, or we're still struggling a little bit. Where we've done a lot of work toward health, we're moving toward that healthy side of the spectrum. But there's still parts of us that we're still working on. We're still works-in-progress. Again, there's no shame in any of this. We're trying to understand. We're trying to name not shame.
Now, we move into that toxic side of the spectrum. These are individuals who are living mostly out of the worst of who we are. And in their behaviors we see that they're not able to take responsibility for their own actions.
Instead, they tend to blame other people. They tend to shame other people, they tend to criticize, manipulate, guilt trip, belittle. They tend to go after others because they're not doing their own work.
They don't want what's best for you. They're worried about their own image, and we talked about this in the series on buzzwords, on psychology buzzwords part two. We went through a lot of these toxic behaviors, and I also have a whole webinar on some of these toxic behaviors.
But, in general, these are toxic because not only is that person not doing their own work, that would be one thing, so there's limitations. That's why we're more in that center place. But where we move toward this left side of the spectrum is they're A, not doing their own work. But B, because of that, they're engaging in these behaviors that are toxic to you, that are going after you.
This might be a parent, who's never done their own work to heal their own pain. And, so, as a result, they try to control you. They try to make sure you never bring shame on them. And, so, they're constantly controlling your behaviors, that's really toxic to you, especially, if you were raised in an environment like that.
You might have a spouse or a friend who cannot take responsibility for their own mistakes and, so, they blame shift. They might say, "It's your fault that I lie."
"It's your fault that I started down this toxic path." It might not be malicious, it doesn't matter, it's still toxic. Someone on this side of the spectrum is not taking responsibility for their own healing, and as a result, their behaviors are designed to make you feel like it's your fault.
Because when you can't face, we've talked about this in so many other episodes. When you can't face your own stuff, honestly, you have to take it out on other people. You have to blame other people.
Now, on the extreme left side of this toxicity spectrum are those who are downright abusive. We're getting into this area, that we were talking about earlier, where they are trying to harm you. There's intent, there's malice, they want to cause harm.
They want to harm you physically, emotionally, spiritually, these are major boundary violations. This behavior cannot and should not be tolerated, and there's a very specific way you have to address a person like this. You're not going to use the same strategy with this kind of person, that you're going to use with someone who's relatively healthy and who made a mistake.
So my point with this spectrum of toxicity is for you to understand the importance of context. You have to take into account the context. You have to begin to study patterns of behavior.
Consider the following example, let's say, situation A, you have a friend who hurts you. Maybe they talk behind your back and it gets back to you, and it's painful, you've got to deal with that. What that friend did was hurtful.
But here's the thing, is this a one-time offense? Where this friend got pulled in to a toxic behavior, but overall, they're apologizing. They're taking responsibility, they're showing that this is not a pattern of behavior, this is a one off. It still hurts. You still have to deal with it, but there's a context to that behavior.
On the other hand, situation B, you have a friend who talks behind your back and it comes to your attention, and you dig into it a little bit and you start to realize, "Oh, my gosh, this is a pattern. They are constantly criticizing me, throwing me under the bus, behind my back. They aren't a friend to me, they're never really coming to my aid. They're in fact saying slanderous things. This isn't a friend at all."
And, again, this seems like an obvious example. But you start to dig a little deeper and you start to go, "There's a pattern of behavior here, where this person is really demeaning me consistently, and I have to take a completely different course of action in setting boundaries with this person. This is toxic. There's a pattern of behaviors here that is toxic."
So in both cases, you're going to need to set a boundary, but it's going to be very different in situation A, where the person is coming to you, they're saying, "I'm sorry." Or maybe you had to confront the person, but still they're saying, "I'm sorry. I did it, I was wrong. Here's what was going on with me, I'm not making excuses, but I want you to know this is not who I really am."
And you start to pay attention to their character over time. Versus situation two, where the person makes excuses. The person doesn't admit it, the person blames other people, and you start to realize, "This person talks behind everybody's back, this is a part of who they are. They're not a faithful friend."
Now, next week I'm going to walk you through the different types of responses to the different types of boundary fouls. So today I want you to become aware of context; "Is this someone who's mostly on the healthy side of the spectrum, and therefore I've got to figure out how to address this in a very specific way?"
"Is this someone who is in a gray area? There are some patterns of behavior here that aren't great. But there is some good and, so, that's going to take some nuance in how I approach this."
Or, "Is this someone where it's mostly toxic? And then I've got to take a whole different approach." So stay tuned next week for what I'm calling Three Categories of No. And in the meantime, I want you to remember the following, the more you do this work inside yourself first, the more discerning and wise you will become with other people.
And this is what Jesus says, He says, "Always look at yourself first before you go to remove the speck on someone else's eye." In my own life, as I've confronted my own wounds, as I've looked honestly at my own temptations to miss the mark. As I've gotten really honest with myself and with God, I begin to grow wise.
Humility breathes wisdom, as I'm humble before God and face my own blind spots, my own temptations to lash out, to criticize, to lie, to cover over my mistakes. As I become more and more aware of those pulls on my own soul, and I learn more and more to do the hard work of turning toward truth. Of turning toward honesty, of turning toward healing in my own life. Guess what, I become way more perceptive about noticing what's going on in people around me.
As we take responsibility for our own behaviors, as we learn what a genuine apology looks like when we make mistakes. As we learn to face our own shame, our own wounds. As we talk honestly about areas where we're struggling with God.
As we notice where we're tempted to veer off course or miss the mark. As we notice where we're tempted to lash out, to lie, to manipulate. Not to shame ourselves, but simply in the interest of this honest, self-examination, we become more wise. We become more discerning. As we become healthier ourselves, we have less tolerance for toxicity in other people.
Finally, as we close, here's some wisdom and the biblical basis for this work of establishing healthy boundaries. So many of us have been taught to love others, to always be kind. But here's the thing, it's also biblical to be discerning, to be wise, and to be brave. In particular, the Bible cautions us to be wary of fools, mockers, and hard-hearted people who, due to their unhealed pain, harm others.
Here are some examples from Proverbs 5:9, "You don't want to squander your wonderful life. To waste your precious life among the hard-hearted."
From Proverbs 14:7, "Escape quickly from the company of fools. They are a waste of your time, a waste of your words. From Matthew 10:16, Jesus said, "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore, be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."
These are powerful statements that I think we need to hear more about in our faith communities. We do need to love others. Grace is a powerful antidote, especially, to those who are wounded and trying to heal.
But we also need to be wise and discerning because not everybody is doing that work. Not everybody is doing the work of trying to turn toward healing, and we are not called to love others while, simultaneously, causing injury to ourselves. That is not the example we see in Scripture. Yes, we are to love others, and yes, we are also to be wise.
I can't wait to join you next week, to talk through these three ways of saying no. And in the meantime remember to ask yourself this question; what's bringing out the best of me? And moving toward that is the foundation to all these nos, we're going to learn how to say.
Stay connected all week long
The Best of You Every Day offers short, daily reflections on Scripture through the lens of emotional health—helping you stay steady, connected, and rooted in love.
