Science-backed tools.
Spiritually-based wisdom.

Today on The Best of You Podcast, we're digging into the hidden dependencies that creep in and keep us from the good things we need. The New Year tends to be a time of hope. We sense the possibility of change and are energized to set goals. But so often we move forward without first addressing the hidden dependencies that thwart our best efforts.

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Here's what we discuss in today's episode:

1. Why we all need to "detox" from time to time

2. Examples of "good things" we can start to depend on in unhealthy ways

3. The role of pleasure, comfort, and healthy escape

4. The essential question to ask yourself before you consider introducing any change

5. What I learned by going offline for 6 weeks

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Thanks to our sponsors:

• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp -Go to www.betterhelp.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 10% off your first month!
• Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!

Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Resources

• Detox - " a regimen or treatment intended to remove toxins and impurities from the body." (Merriam Webster Dictionaries).
• The Weight of Glory, by C.S. Lewis
• John 12:24-25
• Ecclesiastes 3
• Too Much Information, Too Little Time: How the Brain Separates Important from Unimportant Things in Our Fast-Paced Media World
• The surprising, science-backed value of boredom at work‍
• Resources for support

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey everyone and Happy New Year, and welcome back to The Best of You podcast. I'm so glad you're here to join me this 2023. I love the new year. I love the opportunity to look back and also look ahead. 

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Personally, I'm coming off of almost two months of being completely offline. I started with going off social media, but it really led to so much more awareness in my own life. Which led me right into the series that we're going to launch today. Three Ways That You Might Need to Consider Detoxing Your Heart, Soul, and Mind. In order to create space for the good things you crave. 

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Before we dive in, I want to remind you that I am hosting a free, six-week book club. Based on my new book, The Best of You, it starts Monday the ninth. We'll go through two chapters a week.

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You'll get daily prompts to discuss in community, with hundreds of others, hundreds of you have already signed up. 

And I will be joining you live each week with bonus content, as well as to answer questions. So you can find all the information you need to sign up in the episode show notes for this episode or at my website; dralisoncook.com/book.

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It's going to be a great opportunity to go through the book together. In fact, if you'd like to read the book with your friends. If you have an existing book club, or small group that you want to bring into this private community with you. My publisher has set up a special page, just for this group, where you can get two free books plus, free shipping, when you buy three. 

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So that's, essentially, five books for the price of three. That's 40% off the price, and you'll find the link for that deal in the episode show notes, or when you go sign up at dralisoncook.com/book.

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All right, let's dive into Three Ways to detox your mental, emotional, and spiritual health. So as I said, this topic is coming directly out of my own life, these past few months. I've really been sort of systematically decluttering aspects of my life since mid-November. 

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This is a practice I've circled back to, regularly, in my own life over the last decade. And I want to share with you some of the things I've learned. So to start off with; what is a detox? Well, Merriam-Webster, the dictionary, defines a detox as, "A regimen intended to remove toxins from the body." Now, typically, this term is used in the context of a substance dependence. 

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So for example, if you're someone who has struggled with any sort of dependence on alcohol or a drug, you know what it's like when you finally remove that substance. Or maybe you've loved someone that has gone through something like that, it's really hard. 

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Your body has learned to depend on that substance. So when you remove it, your body starts to want it even more. You need a period of time to allow your body to adjust to not having that substance anymore. As you, simultaneously, are developing healthier ways of coping. 

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Because, here's the thing, whether it's a substance or whether it's another distraction. And I'm going to get into the other ways that many of us, who don't deal with substance abuse. But deal with other emotional, spiritual, and mental coping tactics and distractions, whatever the source of it is, we cope for a reason. 

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Even when we use unhealthy strategies. Even when we rely on things that aren't good for us or might even be harming us in subtle or not so subtle ways. So this idea of a detox is a metaphor, for I'm not going to be talking about substance detoxing. That's a different podcast episode. 

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I'm talking about what happens, in our lives mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, when we start to depend on unhealthy ways of coping. Change, any change is a two-front approach. It involves number one, disentangling from the old way of coping. The way that's not serving you anymore. While, simultaneously, number two, introducing new ways of healthier and more, truly, nourishing coping.

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We all need to cope, but we slowly, and subtly, can pick up some of these old ways that don't serve us and that aren't healthy for us anymore. Let me give you some examples. 

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All right, these are the most common ways that I see in my life, and in the lives of the people with whom I work, and in the research that I've done. That we slowly start to depend on unhealthy ways of coping. 

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Number one, we can turn to food as a way to numb our feelings.

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Number two, we can escape or distract ourselves through the incessant accessibility we have to entertainment, to social media. To all of the, readily, just at a touch of a fingertip, ways that we have to access other worlds on our phones, any devices that we have. 

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Number three, through what we often call over-functioning. And by that what I mean is using your, quote-unquote, high-functioning skills. Such as pleasing others, meeting needs, getting your task list done. 

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All of these quote-unquote high-functioning ways can become distractions. They can become unhealthy coping tactics. Where we start to depend on this hit that we get from helping someone else, from getting through a to-do list. From getting the work done and avoid the real nourishment that we actually need. 

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And number four, another really quick-fix distraction that we can start to turn toward is overspending. It's the credit card, it's the things. Whether they're inexpensive things or expensive things, whatever it is. Where we can clutter up our lives with that quick hit of a thing, that comes in and just makes us feel a little bit better in the moment. 

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Now, listen, none of these things are bad in and of themselves. That's why this is hard. We need good food. We need to escape from time to time through entertainment. Social media can be really helpful, if you're going through a season of loneliness, and it's a way to feel more connected. 

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Pleasing others, meeting needs, getting the work done, good things. Even purchasing things, creating order in your home, books. There's all sorts of ways, if you're artistic, there are ways that these are all serving a good purpose. 

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However, in this day and age of instant accessibility, we can get what we want whenever we want it. These things have a way of creeping in and starting to clutter up our hearts, minds, and souls. 

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We do need pleasure, we need creativity, we need comfort. We need to escape from time to time, again, these are not bad things. God designed us to experience pleasure, enjoyment, delight in the world around us. 

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But what I'm trying to tease out in this series is this. We have to become aware of the ways that even good things can become false substitutes, for the actual real nourishment we need.

These old ways of coping, of numbing, of even trying to comfort ourselves in the moment can be surprisingly sneaky, and surprisingly persistent. And this is why regular seasons of detox are needed. 

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C. S. Lewis has a wonderful quote, where he talks about desire. Because at the root of so much of these activities is desire. We want to feel better. We want more energy. We want to feel closer to other people. We want beauty. We want to create something good, these are good desires. And here's what C.S. Lewis says about when desire gets contaminated by too much of these counterfeit, these imposter substitutes. 

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"We are half-hearted creatures," Lewis says. "Fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us. Like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies, in a slum, because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased." That's from CS Lewis.

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And I want to reiterate that there's no shame in this. The mud pies that we've settled for, whether it's the food, or the social media scroll, or the buying of things, there's a good thing at the root of that. 

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And, so, we want to be gentle with ourselves. This series is not about becoming machines of rigid self-denial, that is not the goal. It's actually about learning to detox what's not working, what's a counterfeit, what's a cheap substitute. In order to discover the true nourishment, the true comfort, the deep-down good pleasure that your heart, soul, and mind actually were designed to enjoy. 

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This is a process, not a one-time event. And it gets at Jesus' words, in John 12, which I unpack in chapter two of The Best of You. This idea that dying to ourselves or denying ourselves, is not an end in and of itself. 

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It's denying old ways of doing things that aren't serving us anymore. That aren't giving us the life that God, actually, wants for us. So that we can move toward the new ways, the good things, that we all need and that we were designed to enjoy. 

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So why is it important to detox from time to time?

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Well, the truth is, as humans, we move toward entropy. Parts of us move toward health, we move toward healing. Other parts of us, easily, can begin to move back into those old, convenient, easy ways of coping. 

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We're human; there's no shame in this. We have a bent toward health. But we also have a bent toward picking up those distractions. Those unhealthy ways of coping, those unnecessary drags on our systems. That feel good in a moment but that do not lead us to the overall trajectory of health that we long for. 

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This idea of a detox has been going on for centuries. In fact, we've got built-in rhythms in our calendar year, for periods of time to abstain, or remove, or take away things that aren't serving us so that we can focus on God. So that we can focus on the good things that we need.

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One season is this new year. This is a season where we tend to set goals. We look for a fresh start. We try to execute on that dream, that goal, or that new habit. Another time of the year is Lent. Lent is that time between Ash Wednesday and Easter, when we tend to pull back from something, to deprive ourselves from something, in order to depend more on God. 

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And then there's a third season, the season of Advent, and this is the time between Thanksgiving and Christmas. It's another time when we tend to slow down. It gets darker around us, and it's a time to remember to quiet our souls.

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So these are just three different seasons. Whereas you engage this practice, they're seasons to pause, to pay attention, and to notice what has started to clutter up your heart, soul, and mind. And therefore is keeping you from the good things you need.

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And I think of the passage from Ecclesiastes three where Solomon reflects on this idea that, "There is a time for everything. And a season for every activity under the heavens. There's a time to be born and a time to die." Solomon says. "A time to plant and a time to uproot. A time to tear down and a time to build. A time to weep and a time to laugh."

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Now that list goes on, but I love this idea of a time for all things, and, particularly, as we think about the new year. We think about this time to build, usually. 

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This is the season when we want to build, we want to plant, we want to get healthier. We want to start that creative project. We have energy, we want take better care of ourselves. We want to start setting those healthier boundaries. This is that time of year when we're ready to go, we're ready to build. 

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But what I have learned is that unless we are also engaging those other seasons. When it's time to tear down. When it's time to uproot, if we don't address and uproot the hidden reasons, the hidden coping tactics, the hidden ways we've started to distract ourselves, to numb ourselves. If we don't detox from those things first, we won't get very far on the building, on the good things, that we crave.

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< Music >

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Alison: I want to propose to you, today, a very simple but profound question to ask yourself, to get to that route. Before you dive into that new goal, this new year, prepare yourself by answering this question; what is the cost? 

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These distractions, these coping strategies, these will surface as you consider that question. Here's an example of what I mean. Let's say you want to start exercising, it's the low-hanging fruit of New Year's goals. You want to start exercising great, but what stands in your way? 

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What's the cost of achieving that new goal? 

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If you say yes to exercising every day, this new year, you are going to have to say no to something else. There's a cost to that goal. You're going to need more time, for example, which means you're going to have to take that time from somewhere else. 

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You might need financial resources for that goal. Which means you're going to have to take that money from somewhere else. You might need to have a hard conversation with a spouse or with your family, about the space that you're going to need to make this happen. You might even have to inconvenience someone else. 

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Suddenly you're in this land of the cost, these old ways you've been coping. The ways you've been putting your time, your treasure, and even some of your talents into other things that aren't, necessarily, bad. But that are keeping you from this goal you really want to achieve. 

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As you consider the cost of this longing, this desire, this goal that you have, you'll start to notice where you might have some unhealthy or misplaced attachments. Parts of you are really excited. You're going to, finally, launch this new project, take care of your body, get healthier boundaries. But other parts of you are still stuck in the old ways that you've been coping. And you'll start to notice it when you ask yourself about that cost.

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"I don't want to take away time from that thing."

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"I don't want to disappoint those people."

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"I don't want to give up that coping tactic."

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What is it that you're going to have to shift out of, in order to move into this good thing, you need? This is what it means to count the cost. And as you count the cost, you're going to back your way right into the possibility of a detox. You're going to have to let go of, release, something you've been depending on. And it's going to create a little bit of a pinch even as you move toward this good thing you crave. 

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Now, in this series, I'm going to cover three areas of detox that, typically, come up when we want to make a good change. 

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Number one, we clutter up our lives with information overload. And what I mean by that is all the instantaneous access we have to ideas, to people, to entertainment. To massive amounts of information through the internet, our phones, and social media.

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Number two, we clutter up our lives with things. Now, I like to call these shiny objects. Your shiny objects might be one thing, mine might be another. It might be food, it might be buying things, it might be clothes, it might be expensive things, it might be cheap things. Whatever it is that you just fill up your space with, that gives you a hit. A feeling of relief in the moment, but that is cluttering up your heart, soul, and mind. 

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Number three, we clutter up our lives with harmful relationship patterns, with unhealthy dependencies on other people. We can start to thrive on the helping, the drama, the busyness. The pseudo connections that we've started to depend on that keep us from the real connections we crave. 

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Now, if you listen to that list information, things, and unhealthy dependences on other people, you can see why this is tricky because these are all good things. And they are also three areas that can sneak up on us in unhealthy ways.

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So for the last part of today's episode, I want to just touch on and give you an example of detoxing from information overload. There's some research that's been done, and many of you may have already heard this. 

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But an average person, living today, you and me, are processing so much information. It's the equivalent of 16 movies a day, through our TV, through our computers, through our phones, through social media, through the news. Through everything that's available to us instantaneously. 

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Every year, this increases about 5% more than the previous year. And just to give you a check on that 500 years ago, the amount of information that you and I absorb in a day, 

would have been what a highly-educated human would've consumed in a lifetime. It's just unbelievable what we digest and what bombards us every single day, in terms of information. 

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So I want to give you an example from my own life. In mid-November, I just knew that I needed to detox from social media. I knew I needed to take a break. I could tell there was an information overload in my life. My mind was just going and going, and I couldn't really get that spacious, centered, feeling that I need to be healthy spiritually, mentally, and emotionally. 

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And social media was the low-hanging fruit of detox. It was like, "It makes sense. I can tell I'm using it too much. I'm depending on it more than I like, and I just need to go off it. It's the holidays, it's advent." So I decided to take six weeks off. 

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And it was so interesting what I noticed. Because the first few days I was just aware of the quiet, of the absence of noise. Of sort of the flashing, dancing circus that my Feed had become, of bright lights, it's a positive Feed, it doesn't matter. 

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It was just all these good things, even good memes, helpful things that it was just too much. I couldn't process it all. And I noticed how much data I had absorbed about people I don't even know. It was so interesting that I knew things about other people's lives, people who weren't actually in my day-to-day life. And, so, over the first few days I just noticed that. It was just that curbing of the impulse to check my phone and noticing the quiet, and it took a minute. 

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Now, listen, it wasn't hard, it was just a couple of days. Some areas of detox are harder because it mostly felt good. It was just like, "Oh, man, this is what it feels like, again, to reconnect to my own inner life."

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But I began to notice that that checking of social medias had also bled into just checking of my phone. The instantaneousness of responding to a text versus taking my time to think through how I want to respond to someone's text.

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Even a friend, even a family member, all of the quickness. All of the information whirling around had led to this compulsive need meeting and compulsive like, "Got to get back to people." As opposed to taking my time to think through the best way to respond.

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I began to bask in that quiet, as I gave myself permission to slow down the information. To maybe not even read the text that comes in until I had the bandwidth to read it. To maybe not open the email until I had a moment to, actually, process it. And my whole nervous system began to calm down over the course of a few days. 

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Now, over the course of a few weeks; new, and good, and exciting things started to come in. I started to notice the ways that I hadn't been paying attention to the cues my body had been sending to me. I scheduled a few retreat days of silence, to really spend time journaling and listening to my body, to my emotions, to God. 

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I began to notice my creativity, my imagination, start to kick back in. Our imaginations kick in, frankly, when we're a little bored, there's good research to support this. If you're a little bored, you're on a walk, you're not sure what to think about, your imagination kicks in. 

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But when we're constantly checking our phones, checking the news, checking the latest headline. We're not creating that spaciousness for those good things, for that imagination. For those slow walks where we happen upon a thought, or a longing, or a desire, or an insight. That there's no other way we could find if we're not in nature. If we're not quieting our souls, if we're not quieting our minds. If we're not listening to the noise of quiet. I needed to hear my own thoughts, not everybody else's.

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Now, listen, there's a time for everything. There was a season when I went on social media where it saved me. I was so lonely, and you might be in a season like that. Where you are disconnected from relationships, from community, for whatever reason, and there's a way in which social media is keeping you connected to the world. And I want to honor that. There is a time, there is a season for that. 

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But for me, this was a season to pull back, to let go, to release, to detox from the amped up nervous system. The compulsivity, the accessibility, the fast, hustle, I needed to detox from that. And remind my heart, soul, mind, and my nervous system what quiet feels like. 

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What it feels like to be outside, taking a walk, hearing the crunch of the snow under my feet. Seeing the stars, as the twilight starts to descend. Feeling the tears well up in my eyes as a quiet moment overtakes me, and I am awe-struck by the beauty of God's creation, all around me. To feel the wild surge of aliveness, as I simply connected to myself in the presence of a loving, so real God.

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To feel those moments of connection to the people in my everyday life. To slow it down enough to stay present. When we don't set aside seasons to detox, from the fast swirl of information all around us, we get out of balance. We lose sight of the quiet and the goodness that comes from moments of simply being present. 

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Even if it means being present to some of the hard emotions that are inside of us. Numbing, distracting, constantly filling our minds with the noise and the din of the swirling dancing lights, of the internet, of our phones, of social media. Keeps us from the wild, purposeful, sometimes, scary, deeply important life God created us to live out in the here and the now, in the present moment. 

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We miss out on the joy and sometimes the messiness of relationship, and of good work. We miss out on the love and the tenderness that comes from connecting deeply to the Creator of our souls in prayer. And we miss out on the healing and the restoration that comes when we face the weariness of our hearts, souls, and even our bodies. 

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As you consider the swirl of information, the things that might be cluttering up your space or the unhealthy relationship patterns. I want you to consider the following questions this week. 

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What's one good thing you want to bring into your life this new year? 

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What's the cost of creating space for that good thing? 

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And as you consider your answers, to those questions, I want you to remind yourself of this. "Over the next week, I'm going to practice this new, good, thing that I want. And I'm going to be gentle with myself as I notice the old way I have to release."

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And then just stay curious in that tension between old and new. Stay compassionate towards yourself, as you notice the good thing you're moving toward and the old distraction, the old numbing, the old way you are gently learning to release. In order to create space for the good things you crave.

So many of us have had negative experiences with power. It feels like something to fear, something bad, or something to avoid all together.

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But what if God wants us to step into our power in a healthy way? And what if understanding the power we have is at the core of building healthy connections with other people? Today's episode on the podcast is straight from my heart and from my own tenuous relationship with power.

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Here's what I cover:

1. What is power?

2. Why we think of power as bad

3. What healthy power looks like

4. The problems that arise when we do not claim our own power

5. Different ways power is abused

6. Why women in particular tend to avoid their own power

7. The paradigm-shattering example of power in the birth of Jesus

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Thanks to our sponsors:

• Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
• Download Abide Sleep and Pray Meditation and text my promo code BESTOFYOU to 22433 today to get 25% off!

Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Resources

• Learn more about 6 Painful Parenting Patterns and 7 Friendship Red Flags in The Best of You, by Dr. Alison Cook
• To learn more about the parts of your soul, check out my book with Kimberly Miller, Boundaries for Your Soul
• Power - "the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events." (Oxford Language Dictionaries).
• Resources for support
• Philippians 2:1-11
• Matthew 7:6

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Podcast Episodes Referenced:

• Episode 1: What Is Narcissism Really?
• Episode 2: What Should I Know About Gaslighting?
• Episode 24: Boundaries, the Spectrum of Toxicity, and a Note About Evil
• Episode 25: Types of No Part 1—How to Say “No” in Healthy Relationships
• ‍Episode 26: Types of "No" Part 2—How to Say "No" to Toxicity, The Real Meaning of Turn the Other Cheek & How to Form a Boundaries Committee

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey everyone, Merry Christmas. Welcome back to The Best of You podcast. This is our last episode of 2022, I'll be taking next week off. But I am so excited to be here with you today to wrap up this series on managing perceptions versus authentic connection.

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I have a topic today that I think feeds right into the Christmas story, and the topic is power. And, especially for women, there are so many ways we have a tenuous, tricky relationship with power. Both our own and the power that we see all around us, especially, when it's been misused, which seems so prevalent, especially today. 

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Before we get into the episode, I just want to thank all of you who filled out this survey. Hundreds of you took the time to fill that out and gave me such helpful information, as we think about the next year ahead. Several of you mentioned, in the survey, that you wanted a place to find the resources mentioned in each podcast episode.

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Well, I have such a place, so I wanted to take a moment and just remind you that every episode of this podcast has a page on my website. It's dralisoncook.com/podcast. All of the resources, books, Scriptures, and even the quotes mentioned in every podcast episode are listed on that episode's podcast page. We also provide a full transcript of every episode for you. 

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So if you want to go back and read an episode transcript, you can do that. So please check out those resources at dralisoncook.com/podcast. Secondly, take a moment to subscribe. 

As I said, I'll be taking next week off, but we're going to hit the ground running in the new year. With some exciting new episodes, as well as new ways to connect. New ways for me to engage with your questions on the podcast, as well as in some other new ways that we're excited to announce.

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So please subscribe to the podcast, if you haven't, because that way you won't miss an episode. It'll pop up right in your feed every Thursday morning. You can also sign up for my free weekly email. It goes out every Thursday and I often share additional insights. Other things I've thought about related to this week's episode. 

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So it's a great way to stay in touch. I also announced new specials or new content I'm offering there, and you get three free E-books when you sign up for that email. So take a moment, you can go to my website, dralisoncook.com and sign up for that weekly email. I'll also put the link in the episode show notes. 

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So today is our last episode of this series, on managing perceptions versus authentic connection. And we started off this series talking about the many ways we tend to manage perceptions. Which means we try to get other people to see us in a certain way instead of showing up authentically, being real, being the person we really are. It doesn't mean that we don't have our guard up, in a healthy way. We don't just go show all of who we are just to anybody, trust has to be earned. 

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But even when you're protecting yourself in a healthy way. Even when you're going into a relationship knowing, "I need to be careful here." You can still show up, authentically, instead of trying to get that person to see you the way that you want. And this last episode gets into this idea of power. And power really underlies all of these ways that we manage perceptions because we're trying to get power. 

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So while this is an episode in and of itself, it also ties up in all these ways. Whether you are pleasing, producing, performing, perfecting, whatever method you use. What we're trying to do, these parts of us that do these things, these parts of us that perfect, please, perform, produce even power-over, which is the more overt one. They're always, "We're trying to get power. We're trying to get people to see us in a certain way." And that brings me right to where I want to start. 

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What is power? 

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We tend to think of power, often, as a bad thing. We tend to think of people who power-over as dominating, controlling. People who misuse power and, again, we have so many examples of a misuse of power. That I really think that we've begun almost to equate power with something bad. Power is someone who hurts other people to stay in control, to keep their own power. 

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But here's the thing, here's how the dictionary defines power. "It's the capacity to direct or influence the behavior of others, or to direct, or influence the course of events." So power is the capacity we all have to influence others. Think about that for a second.

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If you're a parent, you have power to influence your child. It's scary and there should be a healthy fear when we think about power. I want to be clear about that. Healthy power goes hand-in-hand with a healthy fear and trembling, because we are fallen creatures. We will misuse the power we have, we are not God. 

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God has power and God does not misuse His power. God only uses His power to influence us, to influence the course of events for good. There's also an enemy. The enemy of our souls only misuses power, only influences us, influences the course of events for bad. That's the enemy of our souls. But God only uses His power for good. 

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Now, somewhere in there we, humans, are a mixture. We are a mixture. We can use our power for great good and we can do harm, because we're fallen humans. And I just want to name that, especially if you're a parent, because I started with parenting. That's the hardest one because it's the most obvious place where there's a power differential. We as parents have a lot of power. We have a lot of influence in our kids' lives. We have power in our friends' lives. We have power in our workplace. 

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Sometimes it doesn't feel like we have any power. We feel powerless, and there are many reasons for that. If someone else has misused their power to put us in a position of feeling like we have no choices, like we are trapped, that's a terrible place to be in. If you are feeling powerless, I want you to get help. I want you to learn to find small ways to reclaim your power. Because power, at the end of the day, is something we all need to have a relationship with.

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We need to understand the power that we have so that we can use it wisely. So that we can use it for good. Now, in my book, The Best of You, for those of you who've read it, I describe six harmful parenting patterns. I also describe seven friendship red flags. And I get into these ways that we manage perceptions, and I also talk about how churches can abuse power. All of these chapters, where I talk about this, are getting into ways we can misuse power. 

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So instead of showing up, authentically, with confidence, even naming hard things. Even exerting healthy influence, that's healthy power. But instead of doing that, we pivot and out of our fear, and out of our insecurities, and out of our wounds, and out of our unhealed shame, we try to force people to do things. We try to manipulate other people's perceptions. We try to demand loyalty. And we might do this in forceful ways or we might do this in subtle ways.

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There are the overt ways that power gets misused. The narcissistic power that tries to keep you always, only, focused on them. The controlling power that, overtly, tries to dictate your behaviors. The powering-over through gaslighting that won't let you get a word in. You have no say in the narrative, every word you used is used against you. Those are really obvious ways that power gets misused. 

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Now, listen, I mean, obvious, it doesn't mean it's not easy to get sucked into these because it is. But these are overt ways that we misuse power. There are more subtle ways we can misuse power through guilt-tripping. Through trying to get someone to feel guilty, so they'll do the thing we want them to do. 

There's through manipulation ways that we can take advantage of other people's good heart. Ways other people may have taken advantage of you, of your empathy, of your kindness. And instead of humbling themselves to apologize, they start to manipulate you. 

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And there's the power of criticism, frankly, of being judgmental. We feel better about ourselves. We puff up our own faults, sense of power, by dragging others down. So there are a lot of ways that we misuse power. 

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Power is tricky and I think women, in particular, have a tenuous relationship with power. And I think for most women, not for all women, I'm broadly generalizing here. But many of us haven't felt that we have power. We haven't felt empowered. We don't understand what it means to feel powerful. In fact, we fear that in ourselves. We've been taught we're not supposed to have power. Isn't that bad? Why should I want power? Power is bad. 

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And, so. what happens is we stay at the mercy of other people, people who are okay with having power and wield their power. Now, hopefully, we get lucky and we're with someone who wields their power for good. But what I want to propose to you is this idea of shared power. What if we all have a little bit of God-given power and we can use it for ill? Yes. But we all have the capacity to use our power for good. 

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Remember that definition, "Power is the capacity to direct or influence the behaviors of others, or the course of events." You have power. Now let me give you a simple example. We're going into Christmas, I've been talking about this on and on, almost every episode, especially in the series on boundaries. But you have power on Christmas day. You have power over the schedule. 

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Now, you may not have ultimate power. You may not have complete power. I'm not saying that it's up to you to become a dictator, that would be a misuse of power. But you do have some power. You do have some power to say, "You know what? I don't want to do that this year."

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Or "I need to minimize my exposure to that activity or that person this year." I have some power. Right now I want you to consider, "I have some power." I can make decisions that will be good for me and that, yes, might impact or influence the course of events. Which means that my decisions might influence other people. I might need to exert some power with my kids to say, "Hey, this is what we need to do this year. I know you might not like it, but I need you to trust me. This is what's best for our family."

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You might need to exert your power simply for yourself, if you live by yourself. What power do you have to bring in connection? 

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What power do you have? 

I know you may not feel like you have much. It's so easy to feel like we are powerless in our circumstances. But I want you to consider the question, "What power do I have and how could I use it for good?" Maybe for good for someone else, and maybe you need to use that power for your own good. To influence your own course of activities for good. Maybe you need to bring something good into your day. Maybe you need to say no to something that would make you feel even worse, even more lonely.

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What power do you have? 

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And talk to God the author of power. The One who holds all the power and who gets inside and out, how to use power for good. Talk to God, "God, how can I use any shred of power you've given me for good this Christmas. In my own life and in the lives of people I love?

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< Music >

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Alison: I am going to read a quote to you. This is a quote by Marianne Williamson and it's a powerful quote and I just want you to hear it today, as you even think about the holidays and even the new year. Here's the quote; "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. 

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It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant. . .talented. . .?' Actually who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightening about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. 

We are all meant to shine as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone. And as we let our own lights shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence, automatically, liberates others." 

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And I want you to think about that. What about your own power, your own light, your own brightness, do you fear? What if you could use your power for good, not only in your own life, but in the lives of the people you love?

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Now, listen, I have struggled with claiming my own power. I struggle with it to this day. I don't like to think of having power. There's something about it that makes me want to shrink. But here's the thing that I've noticed. If I don't understand and name the actual power that I have, I will do more harm. And this is where we get into, I will start to please, I will start to perform, I will start to produce. I will start to manage perceptions because I feel fearful. 

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And, so, I slip into these ways of manipulating perceptions versus simply showing up as my true self. As my God-given self, and trusting you to be your true self, your God-given self. And letting us each inhabit the powerful voice that God has given us to use for good in this world, in partnership with God's spirit. 

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Misused power is about misplaced attempts for connection. It all goes back to this deep longing for connection. And when we misuse our power, we are trying to subvert the healthy process of connecting to other humans. We need other people. We need to be loved, we need to belonging, we need trust, we need safety. But we have to go about getting those things in healthy ways. We have to use our power to forge healthy connections in healthy ways.

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So how do we do that? 

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How do we learn to harness our power in wise, healthy, good ways, that forge authentic, beautiful, lasting, safe, good connections with others? Well, power used wisely starts inside you. It starts with naming your longings. "I long for this person to see me."

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"I long to feel less alone."

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"I long to be loved."

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"I long to be trusted."

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"I long for connection." We have to get clear that at the root of this all is our deep desire to belong, to be loved, to be valued, to be honored, to be seen. This is at the root of all of this. And until we're really honest with ourselves that what I really want is for you to get me, to understand me, to see me. To take me as I am in both my good and in my blind spots, and in my brokenness, that I'm still working on. That's what I really want here, out of this interaction, and whether you're saying that or not, you know it. 

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But when you know that you're going to be less tempted to try to manipulate, control, force, guilt trip. Whatever the thing is that we do to try to get those things that are not healthy. So it starts with naming, it starts with owning, deep in your core. 

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"What I long for is your love."

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"What I long for is your respect."

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"What I long for is for your forgiveness."

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"What I long for is for your grace."

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"What I long for is for your understanding. I can't demand that of you. I can't make you love me, respect me, forgive me, see me, understand me, I can't make you do that. I can't force it, I can't control it, it's what I long for."

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And, so, what I can do is let you know that I hope that you'll give me a shot, that I hope you'll see me, I hope you'll understand me. I hope you'll give me grace when I mess up, but I can never demand that. I can't force that. Woo, that's hard. That's a hard place to be, and we first have to go there inside ourselves and with God. 

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We first have to say, "God, this is what I long for from this person. I want my child to understand where I've been coming from and to forgive me. But I can't demand that. I can't coerce that. I can't control that."

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"What I long for is this friend to understand I didn't mean to hurt her. I want her to forgive me, but I can't demand that. I can't coerce that."

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"What I long for is this person just to love me and see me. I want my parent, or this friend, or my spouse to get me, but I can't command that. I can't demand that. I just have to continue to keep showing up, as honestly and as authentically, and naming what I long for, when it's appropriate. That's all I can do, I cannot control the way other people respond to me." And that's vulnerable. 

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The flip side, the underbelly of power is vulnerability. It's vulnerable to want other people to love us, to see us, to connect with us. It's vulnerable, we can't control other people. And, so, we have to think about power from that place of vulnerability. Power used wisely is not weak. It's not being a doormat, but it's having the confidence to understand, "First and foremost, I long for this thing," number one. 

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And number two, "I cannot force someone else to give it to me."

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So, number three, "What can I do? What do I have control over?" And this is where we have some power. 

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"I can apologize."

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"I can communicate."

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"I can go to someone and say, 'I adore you. I would love more of you in my life.'" 

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We can go to someone and say, "I value you and I'd love to make a plan to connect more on Christmas day."

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"Your presence is really soothing to me; it means a lot to me. Would you be available to spend some time with me over the holidays?"

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And guess what, that's vulnerable because that person might say no. They might say, "I don't have the capacity." But what we have power over is the ask. Power is got to flow from a deep understanding of what we need and what we want, and what we can ask for. And it also has to flow from the humility that we cannot force other people to get us those good things we crave.

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It's vulnerable. So we've got to go to God first and say, "God, I'm going to do this brave thing. I'm going to use a little of that God-given power. I can use my voice and I may not get what I want." But guess what? It's powerful to have showed up on behalf of yourself and to have said, "This is what I need and it's okay if you can't give it to me, I'll be disappointed, but this is what I need."

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There's also times when you need to exert power and you need to influence events. Which may influence other people and they may not like it. And this is when there's a power differential, when you're a parent is the best example. And you've got to make a decision because it's what's best for you, and your kids may not like it.

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And, again, you're exerting your power for good when you name it and you say, "Hey, listen, this is the plan that we've got to do, as a family. You may not love this plan. This may not be your first choice, and I get that and I can honor that. 

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But this is the plan that's the best for the best of us. I've thought about what each person needs. I understand what you want, this is the plan I've come up with. And it may not be the perfect plan, but it is the plan we're going to do. And you are allowed, you get to have feelings about that plan. I get that you can be disappointed about it, but here's the plan."

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So this is the power that you exert when you actually have some power. When you have power over kids, and you've got to make a decision that's hard. Or you've got power in your workplace and you've got to say, "Hey, I get that this may not be what's best for everybody else, and I'm sorry about that, that's hard. 

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But as the leader here, I've got to make this hard decision. So here's what we're going to do. I'm open to feedback, but for now, here's the decision. I've made it in the best interest of all of us, and I'm hoping you can trust me on that. And if you've got hesitations, you've got reservations, I'm open to input, but this is the best decision I can make at this time."

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So there's a way you can make decisions and you can exert power, when you do have power over other people that still has humility, but that still has confidence. We got to make decisions in life. We got to exert power in life at times, it's just a fact. So we've got to do it with humility and with confidence. 

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There's so much more we can do on this and we'll dig deeper into this topic, in the new year. Because power is so much at the root of so much of everything. It's at the root of safety, it's at the root of trust. It gets into all these other things. If I've got power, I've got to earn trust, I've got to create safety. It doesn't mean being perfect, but it does mean really stewarding the power that we have. 

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So step number one is we've just got to understand that we do have power. But step number two, is how do we honor other people, as we steward the power that we have? 

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To close, today, I want to look at the Christmas story because here's the thing about this thing, this story that we celebrate every year, at Christmas. Did you ever think of it as a story of power? This is arguably the most powerful day of the year. Maybe Easter is more powerful, the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. The resurrection of Christ is a powerful, powerful moment in history, probably, arguably, the most powerful moment in history. 

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But when Jesus was born, there's also an example of power, and it's this humble power that I'm talking about today. It's this power that is the opposite of force, the opposite of coercion, the opposite of control. 

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It's the power of a God who chose to leave all the glory, and all the riches, and all the wonder of heaven, Philippians two, and come into the earth as the most vulnerable form of a baby. And not only a baby, a baby born into poverty, a baby born to a single mother, and a probably reluctant, confused stepdad in Joseph. 

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I mean, these were not powerful circumstances that Jesus was born into and, yet, this most powerful being in all the universe, God showed up in the most tender, vulnerable of circumstances. So as to bring safety to others and making himself so vulnerable, so tender, that He could therefore, then, bring powerful healing to others.

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That tenderness of that baby brings powerful healing to others, and just pause on that for a second without me unpacking it. Think of your own tenderness as one of your most powerful assets. Because your tenderness, your ability to tap into those tender places inside of you, "I'm hurting, I'm lonely, I'm disappointed, I feel powerless." That is the start of powerful healing. 

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It's hard to get to the root of our tenderness. But that's what Jesus did, He became vulnerable, so tender, and in doing so, became a source of tremendous healing. The ultimate powerful healing for all of us. 

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So this Christmas, as you think about this baby, Jesus, who was born into a manger, into a stable, into poverty. By everything we understand historically into this mixed up family. That wasn't a socially acceptable family. 

As you think about Jesus and that tenderness, I want you to think about the tenderness inside of you and just notice, before God, areas where you're tender. And instead of shoving those feelings aside; what if naming those areas of tenderness is a form of power?

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It's powerful to name those areas of tenderness. It's powerful to name them in a journal, to name them before God. To name them to a safe person, a person who has earned your trust. There's power in vulnerability, it's a pearl. It's not a pearl you want to give to just anyone, especially, if you're in a situation where someone else is misusing their power. I don't want you to give the tenderness of your vulnerability to someone who's misusing your power. But I do want you to begin to name it for yourself. 

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Because the path to healthy power, to being someone who uses power for good in other people's lives. Starts with you using your God-given power for good inside yourself. To be tender with the parts of you that are hurting, with the parts of you that are vulnerable. It starts with you using your God-given power for good inside of you.

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Jesus came into this earth and He went to the margins, He went to the hurting, He went to the poor, He went to the suffering. He went to this sick with the power of His healing and it started because He became the most powerless form Himself. He understood powerlessness in Himself and He was therefore able to walk into other people's lives with true power. With power that uplifts, with power that equips, with power that heals, with power that transforms lives. 

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This Christmas start with yourself. Be gentle with those tender parts of you. Be gentle with them, that is the beginning of unlocking your God-given power.

Were you subtly conditioned to please others at the expense of yourself? I loved talking with my friend, Dr. Monique Gadson, on today's episode of the podcast. We met through an IG Live prayer session! She's since become the best sort of real-life friend-someone whose wisdom, empathy, and realness breathes life into weary souls.

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If you've struggled with depression or felt overlooked-even as you constantly show up for others-please lean in close. Dr. Monique is candid about her own journey through depression and how she lost herself in all the voices around her. In a powerful turn of events, Monique began to bring mental health directly to the center of the church, where she's practiced as a counselor for decades.

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We cover so much in today's episode, including:

1. A key moment from childhood when she learned to please others

2. Monique's experience as a PK

3. The burden of always attuning to others when you're disconnected from your own self

4. Monique's early experience with depression and how she got help

5. Practical tips if you struggle with feeling "joy" at the holidays

6. Finding your own way as a parent amidst all of the voices

7. Monique's call to bring mental health *into* the church

8. Jesus and people pleasing

9. The power of friendship to bring hope in dark places

‍Check out Dr. Monique's new book with Clarence Shuler, Finding Hope in A Dark Place: Facing Loneliness, Depression, and Anxiety with the Power of Grace

Connect with Dr. Monique at drmoniquesmithgadson.com or on Instagram @drmoniquesmithgadson

If you are struggling with depression, find resources for support on my website.

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

• Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp -Go to www.betterhelp.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 10% off your first month!
• Download Abide Sleep and Pray Meditation and text my promo code BESTOFYOU to 22433 today to get 25% off!

Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Resources

• Finding Hope in A Dark Place: Facing Loneliness, Depression, and Anxiety with the Power of Grace, by Clarence Shuler and Dr. Monique Gadson
• Learn more about The Cocktail of Codependency, Freeze/Fawn Response, and Spiritual Bypassing in The Best of You, by Dr. Alison Cook
• To learn more about Unburdening and the Internal Family Systems model, check out my book with Kimberly Miller, Boundaries for Your Soul
• Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
  
• Resources for support‍
• Galatians 1:10 "Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ."
• Ephesians 5:27 "and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless."
• Romans 12:15 "Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn."
• Mark 12:31 "The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."
• Romans 8:28  "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."

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Transcript

Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this episode of The Best of You podcast. I know this is one so many of you have been waiting for. Where we talk about this idea of people-pleasing. And I don't really like that word because it's a little bit negative. Because I think for a lot of us pleasing others comes out of a very empathetic place, a genuinely kind place. 

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And it's really hard for so many of us to discern the difference between pleasing others out of self-betrayal or even out of a way that isn't healthy for them or for the relationship, and a way of just genuinely being aware of needs around us and wanting to meet them. 

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So that's what I'm hoping to flesh out today with my dear friend and colleague, and just an amazing woman who is a therapist, a professor. She hosts a podcast called — And The Church Said. She's a coach consultant, and she's the co-author of a new book that we'll talk about a little bit later called — Finding Hope in Dark Places, Dr. Monique Gadson.

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Thank you so much for joining me today for this conversation, Monique. I'm so grateful to have this conversation with you specifically.

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Monique: Thank you Alison, for inviting me to be here with you. This is such an honor, it's such a privilege, I'm just so grateful. Grateful for you, grateful for who you are, so thank you. 

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Alison: We met on social media and you're one of those people. Right now I'm on a hiatus from social media and I'm noticing the ways in which not having that noise in my life is healthy. But there are some things I miss, and you are one of those people. There are a few people I've met I wouldn't have met otherwise, if it hadn't been for social media. So it reminds me of the good. So thank you for being one of those people. 

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I came across your Feed on social media. You're so genuine. I found you on your Live just praying one night when I really needed to connect in that way, and I joined you virtually for that prayer, and just being a reminder of the goodness. And then we've connected offline and just so grateful for you and your voice.

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Monique: Thank you, and likewise. Likewise, I appreciate you being the safe person that you are. Well, I listen to your podcast. So when I listen to your guests and those who have met you, who talk about your genuineness, and your warmth, and your just inviting spirit, I appreciate you. I appreciate you for being that type of person that restores my faith in people. So I appreciate that for you. 

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Alison: Thank you, that means a lot to me. I wanted to start, today, Monique, with an early history. When do you first remember learning that you could shift your own behavior to please someone else? And how did that begin to take shape in your life?

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Monique: Yes, so, one of my earliest remembrances is probably growing up a PK, a pastor's kid for those who may not be familiar there. I grew up a pastor's kid. So I was born in March, my dad was installed in his first pastorate in April.

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So all my life, practically, that's all I've known as being a PK. Even when he left to be with the Lord four years ago, he was still pastoring. So that's just been the duration of his life, that's what I've known. And I think how that started is you would hear these messages about PKs. 

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And it's, "Well, you know how PKs are." And I would think like, "Well, how are PKs?" And then I would hear that stigma, "They're wild, rebellious and all of the things." And I'm thinking like, "Well, I mean, we get in trouble, yes. We get punished, yes. We got the spankings, yes."

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But I'm like, "We're not just this picture that was painted." And there was something within that made me want to say, "No, that's not who PKs are." And, in addition to that, I do believe the messaging of my parents, "Yes, you are the pastor's kid, people are going to look at you." This, that and the other. And you're like, "Well, okay."

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And, so, just early on there was this sense of there is a way you have to be. There is a way you have to perform to please other people. To not live out this perception that people might have of you. 

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So I really believe that's probably where it started. I love your book and your practice, I love all the things that you do. All the work that you've put forth. But when you talk about that cocktail, I think you called it once, with the childhood wounds, the cultural conditioning, and even those church messages. And I was thinking like, "My goodness, bam, I sit right there in the midst of all of those things." 

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All of those are true factors that I say to my clients, sometimes, "You put all of the ingredients in the slow cooker and with the right temperature, and over time, this is what it creates." And, so, I believe that that's probably a bit of where it started, when I have to really sit and think about it.

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Alison: Yes, it makes sense. Yes, that cocktail of co-dependency. I appreciate that, that there was, especially, as a PK, there was this extra layer of, "Don't bring shame on the family." I can imagine. 

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You told me a story, Monique, about watching, was it your brother get in trouble or what? Can you tell me that story? That was such an enlightening and a window into that unspoken pressure in a way.

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Monique: Yes, there was a time when my oldest brother, well, my father had called for him to come to do something for him. And, so, his mind was there like, "Let me go see what Dad wants." 

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And there was an older lady who, basically, just raked him over the coals saying, "He walked past her and he did not speak to her." And he was trying to be apologetic, and he said, "I'm sorry, I didn't mean any harm, and just hello, how are you?" And tried to keep it moving. 

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But she just would not let it go. And, so, then some kind of way my mom either saw what was going on or she went to my mom, and I mean, she raked my mom over the coals. And it was this, "Well, if anybody's children should be mannerable and speaking to people, it should be the pastor's children."

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And, so, that just wasn't a pretty encounter, whatsoever. And I can remember thinking, "Because you thought he didn't speak to you?"

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I could get it if he did say something and say something disrespectful. But the fact that he, and it was an honest overlook, it wasn't intentional. So, yes, that's what you're remembering, I've share it with you. Well, I'm sitting here thinking about it, even right now, and I just feel like I'm right there in that moment in time, just even bringing it back up. 

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But, yes, so those types of things, you just feel like you're hyper vigilant. Now, you're walking around like you're in a pageant. Like, "Hello, Hi." And you're trying to speak to everybody, waving at everyone, just to make sure that you are doing what is expected of you and you're not the cause. Because that's what you're thinking, as a kid, of someone that then is taking your mom and taking her out to pasture, it was like, "Okay."

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Alison: How old do you think you were when you watched all this? 

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Monique: Oh, my gosh, I probably was-

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Alison: Like elementary school?

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Monique: Yes, eight, nine-ish.

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Alison: And you think about, there's a reason we remember. These memories are etched in our minds for a reason. There's a reason that something in you was like, "Oh, my goodness, I never want to make my mom feel that way. I never want to be in trouble like my brother is." 

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I love, and then you're just, almost, compulsively, I would imagine, making sure you're saying Hi to every person to avoid the pain of that moment. And this is what, kind of, in this series, where I want to go back to these early memories. 

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Because that is where we pick up this conditioning, in so many ways, that then we carry with us. We leave the house, we get out in the world, we're in college, and we're still operating in these ways that we've learned. So how did you begin to notice that when you left the home, as a young woman?

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Monique: Yes, I don't know that I ever had words for it. But I can just remember in college, in those early years of college, and, well, even adolescence, this, who am I? Like you're, literally, haunted by that question. 

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Now, I do know that some of that is developmental. If we think about human development, Erikson Stages, and some of that is just to be. But I do believe that it was exasperated for me because there was this sense of trying to attune to what is within. 

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But that being smothered or just crowded out by all of the other voices, of who you are supposed to be and what it is that you are supposed to do. So I truly believe that it was from that compass where I followed the path. So then you get in college, and you're thinking, "Oh, okay, well, this seems like the thing I'm supposed to do."

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Alison: Yes. 

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Monique: And not really checking in to say like, "Okay, but is this true to who you are? Does it feel like this is what you are supposed to do? What resonates with your soul?" I had no inner needle, if you will. Or I should say I had the inner needle, but it would be drawn more to those voices and all of that conditioning that had, in essence, I guess taught me how to suppress me and what I desired.

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Alison: Yes, and, so, how did that play out for you? How did you begin to notice that all of this effort? It's almost like I hear you saying you were so attuned to everyone around you.

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Monique: Mh-hmm. 

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Alison: And I get that picture, you used the metaphor, the pageant queen, I love that. You're so attuned to making everybody else around you happy, pleased, that you didn't know how to attune inwardly. You didn't know how to attune to yourself. And how did you begin to become aware that that was a problem?

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Monique: I think depression. When I first started suffering from depression. I just remember feeling so heavy, like I had this burden on my back or just feeling that there was this persistent sadness that I couldn't explain, it just would not go anywhere. And I just really struggled with like, "What's wrong with me?"

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And at that time, when I was in college, I went to the counseling center on campus and had spoken with a therapist there. Which was, even looking back, just it was a divinely ordered step for me to take. Because in the African American community, therapy just was not a thing. And add that layer of being a Christian in the African American community, and in the church, that definitely wasn't a thing that was talked about, or promoted, or affirmed even for that matter.

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So I just have to look back and believe that that was a divinely inspired step to take. But once I started talking about it, I think that, at least, it gave me an outlet to be able to say some things. And I said these things clumsily because, again, I didn't have the words. 

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And you know, as a therapist, people are going to bring us fragments, and we're just putting them down, and trying to piece things together. And I know that's how I brought things, it was just fragmented. 

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It was just trying to figure out like, "What is wrong with me? What is going on? Why don't I feel like living and why do I feel, not happy?" And all of the things. So I think that that's how it initially had begun to manifest, was through depression, and also there was a lot of anxiety.

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Alison: Yes, thank you for sharing that, Monique, so bravely. I just can sense, in my spirit, others listening who feel that weight that you're describing and don't know how to put words to it. 

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They just know they feel depressed. They don't know how to turn inwardly. They don't even know what they need. And I just appreciate the courage in what you just shared. And, especially, I can imagine you and I are probably roughly the same age. But when you add that overlay of everything you described. Being a PK, being in culturally, and even that time period.

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I know when I was in college, it still was on the early end. For you and I, it was not like everybody was going to a therapist. It wasn't as common even as it is now, and even now there's still stigma to it. So I just appreciate what you're saying, almost. I can imagine there was a certain amount of desperation to go, because it so wasn't a part of what you were taught was how to reach out for help.

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Monique: Yes, it was, literally, fear because once I started thinking, "Why am I even living?"

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"Is there even any point to life?" When I started feeling that. I went, "Wait, something has to happen, I need to do something." And that was all at that moment I thought to do, so, yes.

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Alison: That is so brave. I just put myself in your shoes and thank you for sharing that, again, because I know it's real. I know people feel that way and there's a desperation, and somehow you picked up a phone or walked into an office and it helped, and that's what I'm curious about.

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I imagine it there was still a lot of work left to be done, but in that moment of giving voice, even cobbled together words, to another human. That, that was helpful to you at that time, is that right?

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Monique: Absolutely, it was. And I don't even believe that there was resolve. I didn't stay in it that long and it wasn't because I did not desire. The person that I worked with was a college campus's therapist in training.

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Alison: Yes, I've been one of those. It's scary, and I'm sure you have too. It's like, "How am I going to help this person?"

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Monique: Oh, yes, exactly. But I think that what happened that person, eventually, had finished their term or whatever. And, so, I just was like, "Okay, well, I don't want to have to retail this to someone else." 

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And, again, for the purpose at that moment, there was relief and that was the biggest thing. That there was a sense of relief and release for that matter during that. And that probably was the beginning of my journey toward considering therapy, embracing therapy. And, now that I mentioned it, probably, one of the earlier footprints to even becoming a therapist myself. 

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Alison: Hmm.

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Monique: And I've never really even considered that moment in time. I always fast-forward the timeline of my life and say, "I think it was at this point." But now that I'm sitting here saying this aloud, I do believe that that probably was a footprint even there, at that point, of my developmental timeline, too.

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Alison: Do you think maybe just that seed planted of, "What this person just did for me was so meaningful." And that a seed was planted maybe for yourself? That's interesting.

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Monique: Absolutely, yes.

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Alison: I love what you're saying and I just want to pause on it. Again for those who are listening who are feeling this weight, even right now, and we're going into Christmas. And sometimes I say to people, "Almost, the pressure of the joy can make the weight feel heavier." 

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And, so, what I love about what you're saying is, this was probably a counselor in training, someone young, it's a college counseling center. It probably wasn't in hindsight; it didn't solve all of the things. 

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But there was relief, there was something, there was a glimpse, and that's, sometimes, all we need. You just took a step and you connected with another human, and there was relief and it set a lot of things in motion.

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So I really just appreciate your honesty about how dark it was. It makes me understand a little more, and we're going to come to this book that you just helped co-author. Just the empathy that you have for others who are in that dark place.

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Monique: Absolutely. And who are not only in that dark place, but who are in church and who are in that dark place and feel as though this is, again, "Not what I'm supposed to do."

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It's interesting that you even talk about this joy of the season, and I just remember thinking something. I can't remember if it were a podcast I heard recently on that word joy. And just even once I did a word study on it and one of the ways it was defined is just sheer delight. 

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Alison: Hmm. 

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Monique: And I thought to myself like, "Wow, that feels a little less heavy than the exuberance that we so often associate with joy." And which is a portion of it, but this sheer delight. And I thought to myself like, "Wow, that feels a little less heavy. That feels a little doable."

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And, so, even one day, last week I spoke with a client, going through a very tough time, and we were recounting the Thanksgiving holiday. And for her even just the struggle, and I said, "All you need to do is look at the smiles on your children's faces."

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And I asked her some other things and she said, "Well, I do have a roof over my head." Yes, stay there. Just stay right there. Don't feel, like you're saying, just the pressure to have to say, "Oh, and for all of these deep things I'm grateful for, when I'm in the midst of this very difficult time." 

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Just find the sheer delight, the little things, and I'm hopeful that that does help people not feel so burdened. Again, and this is the thing we have to do during this time. We have to conjure up this energy to be all of these things. When that might not match what's really going on in the inside.

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Alison: That's a really good word, it takes the pressure off of this idea of joy as the absence of suffering. When really it might just be a sheer delight in something really small. I've heard this saying, "Shared sorrow is half the sorrow. Shared joy is twice the joy." And there's something about the being with, even in a small thing. Even that moment with you, with your client, like, "I do have a roof over my head."

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Monique: Mh-hmm. 

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Alison: And sharing that with you. There's holiness in that moment.

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Monique: Mh-hmm. 

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Alison: That right there, that is a moment, I mean, it brings tears to my eyes. Because it is the holiness of our work, is that, "I am with you as you dig deep and find genuine gratitude, genuine-" Whatever the word is that joy does, it feels so... "And I do have a roof over my head and you're helping me see that. I'm not trying to conjure this up all by myself." That's beautiful.

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Monique: Yes.

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Alison: Monique, how did your becoming a mom impact your own journey; toward healing, toward connecting more deeply to yourself? There's such a paradox, I think, when we become parents it becomes very sacrificial. 

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Monique: Mh-hmm.  

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Alison: That in fact, we show up for our kids better when we've learned to show up a little bit more for ourselves. And, so, how did becoming a mom impact your own journey toward becoming more of who you really are? Becoming more authentic while you're also caring for your children?

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Monique: Yes, woo, you talk about those 20s and, so, I had become a mom. So I'm just coming out of college, a few years after college I'm married and shortly a year after that I'm a mom and it's like, "Okay."

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So there were some things I had already resolved that I wanted to do a little differently, as a parent. And some of the things we had talked about, some of our values and beliefs. And, so, those things were not necessarily so hard to implement as becoming a parent. 

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So, again, here we are, all of these messages; the conditioning, and the church messages, and childhood even. Because our stuff, definitely, it's going to show its head when we become a parent, for certain. So there was a struggle. 

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Oh, my God, there was a struggle even becoming a mom and doing what I feel like I'm being led to do as I'm studying this young person. I was a stay-at-home mom, so at the time just because of the way life was, I wasn't working at the time, anyway. And, so, we were just like, "It's going to really cost more for you to work and daycare at that time. And we were like, "Let's just see her through the first few years. Okay, let's do this."

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So, I mean, even that was a thing where this is what we felt. But then there were others like, "Well, what did you go to college for?" And I'm going, "Oh, my God, there's an expiration date on a college degree?" I'm like, "Well, okay."

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I mean, so that was a message that would be in my ear. And then, another message like, "Yes, you're doing that and you need to do this too." And it's just like by the time these things collide in your mind, you're just kind of like, "Oh, my God." Then you're back to, "What do I do?"

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And, so, yes, that is a struggle trying to get through there and tease through what is everybody else's voice? What is everybody else's expectation? And trying to unbury me and figuring out like, "Okay, how has God fashioned me to be a mom of this child? 

He gave me this child to carry." And you're going to know some things about this child before anybody else will know about this child.

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So trying to get to that place definitely was a struggle. Definitely was a big time struggle. And also it made me realize I needed to heal or, at least, start some serious work toward healing. In order to try to raise her to be a young woman that God had created her to be. 

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Alison: Mh-hmm. 

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Monique: I could see early on, how if I did not get myself together, how I would be a hindrance to her and for her. And, by no means, have I done that perfectly. That was, and it still is, a messy journey, and anybody that parents know that, and both of my girls are young adults now. 

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So even in this phase of life, it still is a thing that requires of me to be aware. To continually do my work as I try to guide and come alongside them as young adults. I don't want to give the impression that we spend a certain amount of time, we check a few boxes, and we read a couple of books. We journal a few pages and we're done, we're over this people-pleasing thing. 

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There are places that we continue to struggle. I continue to struggle with that in life. Interestingly enough, even in my therapy, my current-day therapy, just recounting some things in terms of trying to be a good mom, even now. 

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And my therapist shared with me some places where those were some experiences, where you tried to please your girls more than parent them. And I was thinking like, "Are you serious?" So it was even interesting how that theme still even pops up in parent thing.

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Alison: What I love about what you're saying, first of all, for those who are listening is there is good enough.

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Monique: Mh-hmm. 

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Alison: So you're still learning things now, so am I. I'm shocked parenting young adulthood is a whole next level thing. And whole new layers of our own stuff come to the surface, and, yet, there's good enough. And, so, here you are back when she's a baby or new mom, realizing, "I've got to do some more work on myself."

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Monique: Mh-hmm. 

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Alison: Can you give me an example where you realized that? How did you have the self-awareness to know, at that moment, "This is my stuff that I've got to work through?"

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Monique: Mh-hmm. Well, I think for me, one of the first things I had become aware of was just generational stuff, too. I can remember some conversations with my grandmother and I would just say like "Grandma, I don't think that's going to work." 

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But, again, the piece of me that did not want to be, again, we got to be perceived as disrespectful or I know more than you know kind of a thing. So it would be those encounters where you are thinking like, "Okay, I hear what you're saying, I just don't know that that, necessarily, is going to work with me in this situation."

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So I was able to identify some generational things. Which that was some insight that the Lord had just given me, looking back, I didn't know that then, had given me generational insight early on in my life, too. Again, I wouldn't have been able to put language to it.

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Alison: Yes.

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Monique: But when I look back, like you say, those things that I can remember, I remember for a reason and those were indicators of some generational stuff. That I was thinking, "Oh, man, we might need to turn some corners with some things." 

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So that was one way. And I think the other, for me, not only that fawn response, that people-pleasing, one of my, well, I would say my go-to, if you will, trauma response is the freeze, the numb, and I get stuck in indecisiveness.

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Alison: Okay.

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Monique: And I just really could not make up my mind what I wanted to do. "I feel like this is what I'm supposed to do." But all of those, again, other messages and the sweet mothers and grandmothers at church, "And you need to."

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"And you make sure." And you're like, "Oh, okay." And I want people to understand that I'm not saying that these things are not good, and these things were not words of wisdom. What I am saying is that when you are already struggling with trying to do what everyone else expects you to do. 

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It just becomes another layer that you have to try to navigate and, again, work your way through. To say, "Which of these things are good but maybe not, necessarily, what I'm going to implement? And what things to affirm what I, myself, want and wanted." So it was hard trying to kind of...

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I remember that, I don't know if it was a movie or a show and I'm probably really dating myself, but that Journey to the Center of the Earth or something show way back when, or whatever it was called. I almost have that picture in my mind and it was like this journey to our core. 

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Alison: Yes. 

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Monique: It was almost like you're going to all these galaxies. You're having to go through this layer, and that layer, and that layer and it feels like that, trying to get to the core of who you are. It felt as though I just had to journey to even find out what resonates with me.

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Alison: I love that, the journey to the center. And I'm imagining you, and I relate to it so much, Monique, that all the voices amp up at these pivotal moments of which parenting is one. And it's often well-intended, and that's what's hard. 

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And then, again, if you're an empathetic person, everyone is being well-intended, and whether it's family members, it's generational stuff, and these are people you respect, and that noise can get so loud. And if you already struggle to connect to your own inner compass, your God-given barometer inside. 

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I really appreciate that you brought in that freeze response. That sort of a deer in the headlights, "Oh, my gosh, I-don't-know-what-to-do immobility because I can't figure out how to manage all these voices around me. I can't even find the voice inside me. 

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I'm no longer even trying to please others, I'm just inert and I've got this precious little baby that God has given me." I love how you said that, "Has given me, and I have to be able to show up, at the end of the day, for this." I mean, that is intense, I love how you just zoomed in on. 

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I know every mom listening is going, "Ah-huh, yes." And the voices get so loud around that time because so many women do struggle with knowing, "How do I need to show up for my child and myself?" And it's going to look a little bit differently. And, so, how do we help each other in a better way? Because we're trying to help but it isn't always helpful. Our help is not always helpful. 

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***

So again, you have another moment of like, "Somehow, by the grace of God, I understand here that the best way to be a mom is I've got to do more of this work to really zoom in on my own center." You find probably another layer of relief there. And at some point in this makes you then also go back to become a therapist. 

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So tell me a little bit about that. You've got two girls, you're trying to find your own mom voice, and not only going into being a therapist, but going into being a therapist in a church setting. So tell me a little bit about that. How did you know that you wanted to go into that, make that move?

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Monique: Whew, yes, I think my spiritual life took a turn. I was at a funeral for, I did not know the young lady. I was there more in support for my brother. It was one of his dear friends who had passed and died in a car accident, and her middle name happened to be Monique.

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Alison: Hmm. 

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Monique: Now, and I didn't know that until I got there and I was just like, "Wow, okay." But it was there that I just had this, what I termed as God experience young girl, very young girl. She was in college when she passed. And I just remember having this moment of like, "What if this were your funeral?"

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And, "What would people say?"

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Or, "Would you yourself feel that you have done what you were placed on this earth to do?"

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Alison: Hmm. 

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Monique: And I, literally, left that funeral thinking, "No, I have not." And I just, earnestly, sought the Lord in prayer and just other spiritual disciplines like journaling. These things that were things that I've always just done, again, divinely-ordered looking back. But I had that conversation. I just begged the Lord to show me some things, and my goodness did He ever. 

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And a lot of what I saw and what He shared with me, I thank God at that time there was a spiritual mother, a mentor, who after we had gotten married, we spent a little bit of time living in Mississippi. And, so, this lady I met there, in that short amount of time that I was there, which is real interesting too.

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I would share these things with her and she would tell me just how she felt the Lord was leading me in that time. And what I recognized is, how did I say it before, one of the first times like really hearing Him speak directly to me, to me, not necessarily through other people. 

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And basically saying, "I want you to counsel. I want you to go and train as a therapist and to do this in the church." In the Black church clear. And I thought, "Okay, all right, this is cute and funny because I'm new to this. I, definitely, am not hearing correctly because Black churches don't do this type of thing. Black people don't do this thing." 

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So I struggled again and wrestled with trusting that my voice and the voice of the Lord were intimate in that moment. That they were one and the same. So after confirmation that this is indeed the voice of the Lord, "I am speaking to you, you are hearing me correctly."

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And I'm thinking, "Oh, my God, okay." And, so, I started the journey then to prepare to be a counselor. Now I believe looking back one of the reasons why to do that in the church setting, for one, again, and we're talking umpteen years ago. So I know things have progressed, thank the Lord. People, as you were saying, are a little bit more accepting to counseling. It's almost become a little trendy thing to do. So significant progress has been made, yes, still have a long way to go.

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Alison: Yes.

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Monique: Still have a very long way to go. Because even in the church setting, again, we're getting better with allowing people to express their grief, their limitations, the heart of life. 

I think we're getting better. But I also still believe that we don't allow adequate time and space. I just don't believe that we do. 

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And, so, that became my call. My life's work, is to take these experiences that I had throughout my life and figure, "How can we correct these experiences, especially in the church setting, so that people can walk in liberty sooner." That they can understand that, again, I think in this day and time we give a little space for a person to say, "This is hard." 

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But it's not long that that comes followed with this spiritual cheer, "You can do it. You can do all things through Christ." Truth, yes, but again, when we're in certain places in life, doesn't that feel heavy? Doesn't that feel... 

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Maybe I know this but what I need to hear someone say to me is, "I understand you're depressed and I'm wondering is it because you've done everything that everyone else has wanted you to do? And you are sad, or you are feeling heavy because you have gone overlooked for so long?"

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Do we open up that space and are we okay with stepping into that miry, murky place with someone and not feel so compelled to have to spiritually hurry them along. Because you and I very well know that spiritual bypass and A, is a very real thing and B, that that emotional work may take a little bit longer than sometimes we are willing to give that space and that time for.

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Alison: What a beautiful picture of taking all of that empathy, that you both needed. I'm thinking back to your college years when you had the heavy weight and the depression, and found relief from a therapist. And a PK, someone who grew up in the church and loves the church, and in that moment God's voice and your voice. 

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I love how you said, that coming together and it's like, "Okay, now you're going to go take that place of holding space for witnessing, for being with others' pain. For not fixing, or bypassing, or slapping Bible verses on." Just being with, right into the church setting 

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Monique: Mh-hmm. 

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Alison: That is just such a beautiful picture. We talk about spiritual bypassing, it really is this way of putting clichés, pat answers on things. Instead of really walking into the pain of others and just being with others in what they're experiencing. And just that picture of you in a church setting is really powerful to me. Do you think that whole issue is more elevated in a Black church?

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Monique: Yes, and I am speaking from my experience. So growing up in that life, still in that Black church life, and also having been a counselor in that setting. I feel like it gives me a bit of an edge to be able to say, "Yes, to that." I do. 

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And from what I have heard, over time, wish I had the insight back then to have collected some data. But I can remember what people would share with me. Kind of when you talk about these clichés, we get those things sometimes from the pulpit. Which I've actually done a presentation on about how some of the messages from the pulpit hinder our mental health and emotional health, especially, in the African American church setting.

How there is this historical reference; we talk about how our people have endured and how our people had to just keep it moving. Even under the most distressing of circumstances, extenuating of circumstances, they prevailed, they made it, and you come from that, you're cut from that cloth, you should be able to do that too. They didn't have time to sit on somebody's couch to process their feelings. They had to keep it moving and you should be able to do that too. 

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So I think that some of that is embedded in that historical context, generationally. And then we want to talk about cultural trauma versus that generational trauma, it's just been transmitted, from generation to generation. 

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And I want to say to people it is an act of resistance to feel. It's an act of resistance to feel because if your ancestors, your enslaved loved ones, were told, "Shut up, boy." Or, you can't show any kind of emotions when your families are being ripped apart, all of these things. Then do we not owe it to our ancestors to cry out. To even carry some of that, that was never expressed by them, we can bellow those things out. 

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Alison: Wow, oh, that's powerful. That just gave me chills.

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Monique: I think about the night before my father's funeral. A lot of his first cousins had come to the funeral home when we had the family visitation time or whatever. And I've known some of them just over the years, it was a lot of them. But it was just interesting to me that they shared with me, that night, that my grandmother, so my father's mom, was the one that their parents... So we're talking my grandmother's siblings would be their parents. 

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Alison: Mm-hmm. 

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Monique: So their fathers and their mothers, they chose to put their money together to send my grandmother to school. They felt she was the smartest one. 

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And, so, they put their money together, they worked to put her through school. And I told them I had never ever heard that before. But what I did know is that education was super-duper important to my grandmother, and to her children, and thereby to her grandchildren. 

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So I say that to say, that if we say things like for us to obtain an education or to have the right to vote. We should do this because our ancestors could not, or they fought for this, then, I would say the same thing about our emotional healing.

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Alison: Yes, okay, I get what you're saying. Yes, that makes a lot of sense and there's a whole another layer. And I remember talking about this with you. You so kindly read The Best of You and endorsed it. 

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And I remember I wanted to know from you, because in that cocktail of co-dependency, and the cultural conditioning, and the messages we get from culture, as women, "To stay small." And there is just a generational... we couldn't vote. There were lots of things we couldn't do. 

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My mom couldn't get a credit card, literally, and my mom is a brilliant woman, college educated, couldn't get a credit card if my dad didn't co-sign it with her. You know what I mean? That was not that long ago, these kinds of things. 

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But I remember when I was talking with you, Monique, and I'm so aware that as a White woman there's one thing. And then you add the layer of being a Black woman in a country where there are so many more layers of the different cultural messages. Both from the dominant culture and also from your own about how you're supposed to resist.

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Monique: And, so, when you think about that, even when you talk about people of color, and I am sensitive to that, there are many people of color that can possibly resonate. I tend to have to say even when we talk about this people-pleasing, this fawning, I have to step out from underneath that label. And I have to say, "I am a Black woman." Because I get lost even in the label of people of color.

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Alison: Can you tell me more about that?

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Monique: Yes, I just think that Black women's, our experiences are so unique. 

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Alison: Yes. 

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Monique: So very unique, and I think that because of the uniqueness of those experiences. That expectation of, "You are going to put it on your back. You're going to carry the weight of-." And that's kind of like a fill in the blank. So the women had to do that. When their men were stripped away for from them. And I'm also thinking of, I don't know if you would've, recently, have seen The Black Panther?

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Alison: Oh, yes. Wakanda?

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Monique: Yes.

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Alison: Yes.

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Monique: And, so, I'm even thinking about some of the themes I felt in that movie. When the queen had to talk about her husband, and just the absence of the Black man. So there is this expectation that the Black woman has to do these things. We have to protect, and we have to provide, we have to do. So that can be lost when, sometimes, we talk about this people of color label. 

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So I have to step out from underneath that and say, "But as a Black woman, this is my experience. This is what I am having to tease through, and discern, and embody." Definitely it is going to tell us a whole lot of stuff even before our mind catches up with it, right?

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Alison: Yes.

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Monique: So, yes, we have some very unique experiences in terms of that expectation. That expecting to do what others need and want for us to do.

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Alison: If I'm hearing you right, it's like what comes with that is an extra layer of pressure to do things in a certain way. And you are coming in and saying, "What if part of the resistance, part of honoring the strength is to honor the lament, is to honor the weight, and get healthy and heal."

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I just want to pause and just say, man, what a beautiful. Again, to circle back to, then, you stepping into the church to bring all of that light into all of that healing right there. It's just a beautiful picture to me. It's a picture, to me, I think we can all learn from.

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Monique: Mm-hmm.

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Alison: Why shouldn't we be bringing the healing into the church? Versus going to church and then go into therapy. I just think that is a brilliant, beautiful way that you began to use your voice, that was so hard-earned. So hard earned. 

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Monique: I mean, if you think about just even the people-pleasing, if you will, even of the bridegroom. The Scriptures will teach us that we are nourished, we are cherished, we are going to be presented without spots and without blemish. This is the work of Jesus. So are we pleasing people by trying to hide our blemishes, and our spots, and our wrinkles?

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Can we free even those of us who, you know I love the church and are in the church to say, "I'm blemished, spotted, I'm wrinkled." So I tend to think of that on a systemic level. How even systemically do we find ourselves in this fawning, this pleasing? And Galatians 1:10 clearly states, "Are we going to please God or are we going to please man?" And I think that's interesting, that's black/white. And I think that there are places where it's clear. 

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But there's a whole lot of nuance, as you very well know, that we have to have to deal with, and we have to live within. And I think that we have to be careful that we are not communicating to people, "That to do this is pleasing to God." When it can really just be you're pleasing men.

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Alison: Man, that's so nuanced. And it actually makes me think of this idea of there is a way in which we can, almost in an unhealthy way, use the fawn response or pleasing with God,

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Monique: Yes, Ma'am.

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Alison: Because we're trying to, and I love what you're saying, it's when we're trying to cover over the blemishes to please God., which is not what God wants. God wants the honest, real, person that we are. 

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And, so, that trickles into our relationship with God, to our relationships with the church. Versus really showing up and it requires so much safety, Monique, and you and I have talked about this, but to be able to show up with our blemishes. I feel like there is so much tenderness even in this conversation because we're going to fumble, but to show up. I picture like, "This is who I am."

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Monique: Mm-hmm. 

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Alison: And the problem is folks will hurt us when we do that. And, so, it's tricky, we have to create this safety so that people feel like they can. And, again, it gets back to what I think is so beautiful about what you did, is bring the counseling right into the church setting, to begin to model what that looks like for folks. 

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I want to just touch on your new book, you co-authored with Clarence Shuler, it's called Finding Hope. It just so flows right out of what we're talking about. Finding Hope in a Dark Place: Facing Loneliness, Depression, and Anxiety with the Power of Grace. And one of the things that really, when I read it, stood out to me, and it's a lot of what we're talking about, was the friendship. 

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Monique: Mm-hmm.

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Alison: The way that just it wasn't even therapy, it was just the way that you showed up for your friend who was struggling with depression.

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Monique: Mm-hmm.

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Alison: And, so, in the book, he's telling his story of struggling. And you come along as his expert, his friend, who's an expert to give language to some of the experience of depressions. Suicidal ideas, shown anxiety, from a more clinical background. 

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But really you can tell it was your friendship, that just brought so much hope to him. And it was just such a beautiful picture of, it's like what you said, the little joys. Here is a friend who just sent me a text and said, "Are you doing okay?" And that gave him some relief. It was just a really beautiful picture. 

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So I wanted to just hear a little bit more, from you, on your experience, again, of using this hard-earned voice. That you have to go to the journey, to the center of the earth to find it. And then here you are coming alongside so beautifully in this book. What was that like for you?

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Monique: It was hard, very hard. Very hard to speak into that because it goes back to, "Okay, is it enough?"

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"Is it too much?"

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"How do I get this right?" I want to please him and his publisher. Because when he came to me with that idea, I'm like, "What?" And he was like, "Yes." They just really felt like this would be really great to have the voice of a therapist. And he was like, "I'm thinking I know the one to get."

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And I was like, "Oh, my God." So that was very difficult to find my voice, I'd given him some submissions and he was like, "Is this all you've got?"

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And I'm like, "Oh, God, so I'm not pleasing."

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But then he's like, "No, Monique, say the thing, say it." And I'm going, "Okay."

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And, so, I didn't want to be accused of saying too much or now it's more about me. So it was hard for me to figure out how to strike that balance. But, thankfully, yes he was just real gracious and just like, "Monique, just do your thing, that's what I need you to do."

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And I said, "Okay." So it was a beautiful experience once I finally found my flow, if you will. I hope that people do understand, like you were saying, that it's not so much based on me being a therapist, but what the power of relationship can do. 

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And I like how we're almost rounding out with that. Where we've opened up but not even shared about just you, and what people say about you. Being in relationship with you, relating with you, and it's a powerful thing. I know, I have benefited from being in relationship with you. You have given me corrective emotional experiences on various levels and I just won't even name those, but you have.

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So when we think about this context of just in relationship. Thinking about this grace that is sufficient, that the Scripture tells us. But when we find it in those dark places, it is when we name like I did with Clarence. Like, "You have to be disappointed." And he wanted to skirt around it and deny, "No, I'm just mad." 

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I'm like, "You know what, for Black men, usually, they're going to be mad before they're going to be depressed." So that can be and most people are going to misconstrue that, "Another angry, Black man."

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No, maybe it's another depressed Black man. 

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Alison: Yes. 

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Monique: So being able to name that and to be able to say, "There is grace in that place." If the Scripture tells us, "Where we are weak is where He is made strong". So it is right there at that point of intersection where grace is found. 

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Alison: Yes.

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Monique: So I just believe that it is imperative, again, going back to church, we are many members but we are one. If we are going to be able to rejoice when others rejoice, weep when they weep. Shoulder life with people, shoulder to shoulder life with people, or even at times bear the infirmities of those who are weak. Those who are strong at that moment. 

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And that's my emphasis at that moment because we're going to have our day. We're going to have our day. We have to be able to name ours, in order for us to name it in others even when they're trying not to. 

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Alison: Yes, that's good. 

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Monique: And I think that that's where grace is found. I think that that's where grace is found. And, so, I just believe that if we're going to be healthy individuals, if we're going to be a healthy society. 

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If we're going to be a healthy church, we have got to name what we are feeling. We have to allow other people to do it and we have to allow them the space to do it, and also provide adequate support and tools to help them to navigate their way through those dark times.

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Alison: Yes, it's a beautiful book. But just that friendship, what you just said, and the way that you helped them name what was happening was really powerful, and I learned a lot about friendship. I've thought about it. I'm like, "Oh, so much of it is just naming. I see you, I see what's happening, this makes sense. Your experience is valid. I'm with you in this." 

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We don't have to fix it; we are just coming alongside. And it's been an honor for me that you invited me in, Monique, because a little bit into our friendship to say, "Yes, I get it. I see it." It's meant so much to me and I've learned so much from you through that book, about, "Oh, this is how we do it, just for our friends." I know, I feel so much pressure. "I got to fix the problem."

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"I got to give them the solution."

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"I've got to give them the nugget of wisdom that'll change their life."

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And it's really all I have to do is be like, "I see it. I get it, that's right. I hear you, that's valid. How're you doing?" It's just really showing up. And that to bring this full circle, I think, I started this off saying, sometimes, it's hard for me to know what's the difference between genuine kindness. Genuine, just showing up for others and pleasing, and that is getting at it. 

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It's when I've done, and I love how you say this, it's when I've done enough work in my own self. That it's like, "Oh, I know that and I can come with you and name that." Not because I'm trying to get something from you or feel like I'm the best friend here or whatever. 

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It's because I've done the work in myself and now I have the ability and the capacity to take that God-given empathy, and that God-given kindness to say, "Oh yes, this is real and I'm with you in this." And there's a with-ness in that and it's powerful and I'm beginning to understand that difference. 

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Monique: Mm-hmm. 

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Alison: But your friendship with Clarence and the way that was modeled in the book was really instructive to me. It was really powerful and really helped me, I think about it a lot and how I show up for other people. 

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Monique: Mh-hmm. 

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Alison: It was subtle, it was a nuanced, but it was very powerful.

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Monique: Yes, oh, thank you for saying that. That means a lot coming from you. It's just easy, and I know you know this, in my final comment. It's easy for us to get lost in other people if we don't know, like you say, who we are enough, we're not aware enough. 

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We're not going to ever have a 100% that glorification is going to take place on the other side. But at least do we know even what our limits are? What we lack? What we might be trying to get from other people? If we are not aware of that, then, we so easily are going to fall into that. 

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So, yes, it is so important for us to do that intrapersonal work. So that we can then be able to love the Lord our God with everything that we have, and then love our neighbor as thyself. And I think that right there is the cornerstone.

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Alison: That's right. There's a term in IFS, in Internal Family Systems that I kind of like it, but they call you have to have a critical mass of self.

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Monique: Mm-hmm.

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Alison: And what they mean by that is just enough. Nobody is ever going to be really there, but just enough of that self-led, and we would say the Holy Spirit-led self. 

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The spirit-led place versus the, "I'm trying to please, fawn, cope, survive, get you to like me, whatever the things are that go along with people-pleasing. There is enough self of a spirit-led self, "No, I'm showing up for this person out of the best of me."

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Monique: That is right.

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Alison: What would you say, Monique, to that young girl, now, who watched you know her brother and her mother, and learned how to just wave, and smile, and nod. What would you say to her now?

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Monique: Oh, my God, oh, without crying, "That is going to be okay. It's going to be okay. That, literally, all things do work together for good even the things that are not good things can work together for good." I think that's what I would say. "Just hold on, hang on, even when you don't want to. Hang on, all things will work together. They will work together for a good."

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Alison: That's beautiful, thank you. I want everyone who's struggling to hear that, that's a word, that's a hard-earned word. What would you say to those who are listening, who struggle with pleasing others and have a hard time really feeling that joy of being God's beloved child?

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Monique: Yes, that you're worth it. You are worth the hard work. You are worth telling others to hold on. You are worth saying, "No." You are worth saying, "Let me think about that and get back to you." So, in other words, you are worth creating that space to do whatever work you need to do. 

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To be able to hear not only your own voice, not only your own beat to your heart. But also how God is speaking to that voice within and how He is also attempting to slow down that beat of our heart, when it's anxious. Or to even speed it up when it's slowly beating because we're lethargic, you're worth creating that space.

Alison: That's beautiful. What is bringing out the best of you right now?

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Monique: Oh, my goodness, the fact that God has graced me, favored me with relationships, again, such as you, that have allowed me to show up as Monique. Not who people think Monique should be or expect her to be, but who Monique is, that brings out the best of me, have that safety to just be, that's it.

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Alison: I love that. And what needs or desires are you working to protect in your life right now?

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Monique: You have said it, repeatedly, and I know people can't see us, but I'm over here shaking my head, profusely, that hard-earned voice and that wisdom. 

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So many times we can be made to doubt, and to wonder, and to maybe feel like, "You are selfish" or whatever else the case may be. But that hard-earned voice and the wisdom, that is what I'm working hard to protect and I surely encourage all others to do the same. 

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Alison: Yes, we need your voice, it matters. And, especially, the hard-earned voice that has been through the fire, it's powerful, it's holy.

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How can people connect with you, Monique? Your work, your podcast, your resources, your services?

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Monique: Yes, they can reach out to me via my website. It's drmoniquesmith, not to my father, gadson.com. It's G-A-D-S-O-N, I know many people spell my last name many different ways, but it's G-A-D-S-O-N. 

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I'm like you, I have that kind of love/hate relationship with social media, oh, my God. But I try to hang out on Instagram every now and again @drmoniquesmithgadson. And every now and again I might send a tweet, and I may show up on Facebook as well.

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But go to the website is the main way and Instagram, probably, would be the main way. The podcast is, And The Church Said, and that's another story too. In terms of just voice and just following what the Lord is saying to do and how I've even had to learn that maybe it's a tool of healing.

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Alison: Hmm, that's beautiful, thank you. I so appreciate the time you gave us today and I'm so grateful for you.

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Monique: Thank you so much for having me, Alison. I appreciate you.

Is your to-do list a mile long? Are you that person who hustles to get the job done, no matter the cost to yourself?

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If your inner task manager tends to take you (or someone you love) over, do not miss this episode on The Best of You Podcast with my friend and fellow therapist, Rebecca Ching. It's all about the gift and the cost of being a highly productive, can-do person. Rebecca speaks candidly about managing childhood trauma through becoming extremely productive-a survival skill she took with her deep into her adult life. You'll also hear more about our friendship, including the opposite ways we operate in order to protect ourselves.

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Here's what we cover:

1. The moment Rebecca, as a young girl, walked out on a family therapy session

2. The story of being mugged together in our early 20's

3. How to re-org your inner circle to protect the health of your family

4. The shaming voice that surfaces when you give yourself permission to down-shift

5. The problem with the word "busy"

6. Key questions to ask in order to simplify your life.

7. Surprising ways you can start to rest & play

8. How faith messages can intensify productivity in not-so helpful ways

Connect with Rebecca at The Unburdened Leader Podcast or www.rebeccaching.com

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Thanks to our sponsors:

• Organifi -Go to Organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
• Check out the Raising Boys and Girls Podcast at raisingboysandgirls.com/podcast

Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Resources

• To learn more about Fight / Flight / Freeze / Fawn Responses and The 7 P's of Managing Perceptions, check out my new book, The Best of You
• To learn more about Unburdening and the Internal Family Systems model, check out my book with Kimberly Miller, Boundaries for Your Soul
• Rebecca mentions The Daring Way certification program with Brené Brown‍
• Resources for support‍
• Mark 1:11 "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
• Proverbs 4:23 "Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey, everyone, welcome to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast. I can't believe we are already into December, and as this year winds down, I have a favor to ask of you. I'd be so grateful if you would take two to three minutes, to fill out a survey we've designed. It's called The Best of You Podcast Survey, very creative title. And we're going to give three randomly selected participants a free copy of my new book The Best of You, as our way of saying thank you to you for taking just a couple of minutes to fill out the survey. 

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Here's the thing: we want to hear from you. I am passionate about getting these resources to you for free, every week, to help you in your life. I want this to mean something to you and to be helpful to you. And in order to do that, I need to hear from you. 

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So please take two to three minutes. You can do it right now, go to The Best of Your Podcast Survey link. It's in the episode notes of this episode. It's also on my website, dralisoncook.com/podcast. It'll take just a few minutes, two to three minutes max, to fill out the survey. We'd be so grateful to hear directly from you on how to make sure this podcast is providing you with real help, you can apply in your everyday life.

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Hey, everyone, welcome back to The Best of You podcast. Where today we are going to talk about the hustle. And by the hustle what I mean are those parts of us that produce, perform, work overtime to get the job done. These are the task managers, the productive parts of us. And going into Christmas, I know so many of these parts of us are in overdrive. 

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We've got the list, we've got the goals, we've got the vision, and we are going to get the stuff done. We are the go-to people and we know how to get it done. And to talk about these productive, these producing parts of us. I asked my friend, I have known Rebecca since we both lived in Washington, D.C., right out of college. So, I don't know, I don't want to age us, Rebecca, is that 25 years or more? More probably.

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Rebecca: Yep!

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Alison: So my friend Rebecca, is a Trauma-Informed Leadership Coach, a psychotherapist, and she's the host of a podcast called The Unburdened Leader podcast. And for those of you who have been listening in or who if you've read my first book, Boundaries for Your Soul. We have actually not talked a lot about Internal Family Systems, on this podcast yet. Rebecca is also trained in Internal Family Systems, in IFS. So if you've read my first book, you're well aware of what we mean by unburdened and by this parts model. If you are not familiar with that language, tune in because I'm going to do a whole series on it in the new year. 

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But her podcast is just a beautiful podcast, where she interviews all kinds of leaders. About how to lead from a place of calm, a place of clarity, a place of curiosity, an unburdened place. We're trying to get out of that pressurized place and into clear, calm, unburdened leadership.

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And, so, she is someone who practices what she teaches. She tries to live and model all the things she talks about. And as I know, because I've known you a long time, you've come by that the hard way. Just as I've come by everything I've learned the hard way. 

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I mean when it comes to hustle, when it comes to productivity, I knew you back in the day. You knew how to get the job done better than anyone. So this unburdened leader, this place to which you have arrived, now, you've come by the hard way and I can't wait to have this conversation with you. Thanks for being here, Rebecca.

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Rebecca: Oh, I am so thrilled to be here. Yes, I'm looking forward to this conversation, Alison.

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Alison: Yes, so I want to just hit the ground running with an early memory of, and I'm calling it hustle. Does that word hustle resonate with you?

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Rebecca: Yes, grind, hustle, work, just the grind culture, yes, the doing, all of that resonates.

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Alison: Getting it done.

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Rebecca: Yes.

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Alison: I mean, it is producing, it's performing, but it's just that kind of grind. That's a good word because there's a tension to it. There's an edge to it, in a way, when we are in that task mode. So what's an early memory of hustling, of producing. 

Now, I know hindsight is 2020, so at the time you might not have realized what you were doing. But what's a memory of when you started to operate in that way?

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Rebecca: Yes, and, so, I almost want to back it up a little bit because there's a memory. But there are some influences, as I was thinking about our conversation, and one of the biggest memories and early influences. Believe it or not, if you know me, I love pop culture. 

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And, so, movies, and TV, and magazines were a thing back in the '80s. So I was really drawn to the female archetype who was smart, she was hardworking, she worked her way to the top. She didn't need anybody, and that really was indicative of what I was going through at the time. I mean, my parents had a very conflictual marriage and a three-year separation during my middle school years. Ended in divorce, and there was a lot of abuse, and conflict, and chaos at home.

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And, so, I was really drawn to this '80s archetype; the shoulder-pad suits, the slicked-back hair. She didn't need anybody, and then usually there was like a Michael J. Fox character that would come in and melt her heart. And it was kind of gross all of the tropes that I breathed in. 

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But there was something that felt like, "Oh, if I don't need anybody and I just work, and I have money, and power. I can escape what I'm feeling and still have this recognition, I can have freedom, I can have choice."

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There's something about watching some of those archetypes, at a young age, that burned into my psyche. Combined with growing up in the Protestant work ethic, and then in Minnesota, where I grew up on steroids, it was so in the air. 

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I breathed in, "You work." No exaggeration, you get up, and you shovel the snow in below zero weather, and you scrape off the ice on your car, and turn the car on. And then when it was still dark... that was just what you did. 

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We would ski. I mean, I know you grew up in cold weather, too. So there was just those two influences. And I say this with humility, but also a sense of pride, once I realized I had a brain. I was gifted with a brain and also I was good at sports. 

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And, so, at a young age I realized, "Oh, there was something about this kind of comfort." That I realized, "Of getting good grades, and being in the honors' classes, or being on the sports teams, and performing well, and producing the results that calmed the pain that I was feeling. And, so, it was this thing everyone praised. "Oh, you got the home run."

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"You got the high test score."

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And I had a shadow side, too, because there was this sense of if I didn't ever meet a 100% I had failed. So then I would try and produce more, and work more, and perform more. But it was chasing this idea that these results, these ways of doing and being, would help separate me from the immense discomfort, and loneliness, and pain, that I was sitting with as a kid. 

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And, then, as we got into high school and then college, and discovering my interests and passions. It was just like putting oil on the fire, fuel on the fire of performing. Because, as we mentioned at the beginning of the show, I got into politics and that's just a place where... My wardrobe in D.C. was suits and workout clothes; I had no casual wear. It was like my-

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Alison: Yes, that's the metaphor right there.

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Rebecca: Right there. I mean, we'd go to work and then you'd go to some function that you got an invitation to, the happy hour, and you'd meet up with your friends. But it was usually some work networking or an event, and then you'd go home. Maybe go to the gym at night or in the morning depending. 

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And, so, yes, I think there was just that piece and then it just fed on itself. And then as I got older getting sick was seen as weakness, and if I wasn't producing that was like a moral failure when my body was tired, and I judged others too. 

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So it was this sense of just going and going because if I wasn't producing. If I wasn't pushing myself and achieving these goals, then I'd have to sit with what I was feeling and that wasn't very fun.

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Alison: Yes, it sounds like it worked to some degree. In the sense of, especially, early on, maybe in those middle school, high school years, when there's a lot of chaos at home. Hard to make sense of that escape, almost, of getting that achievement, pushing yourself into sports. I mean, it wasn't an entirely unhealthy outlet, it's what I'm getting at. 

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Rebecca: Well, it was better than drugs. It was better than sleeping around. But I guess nobody knew me and I don't know if I knew me, but I knew how I was supposed to be.

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Alison: Tell me more about that. Were you aware of feeling that at the time, feeling alone even while you were in the grind? 

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Rebecca: Well, I don't know how much I think I was aware of, "Okay, I'm smiling, but I don't feel like smiling but this is what we're supposed to do." I was a cheerleader, captain of the cheering squad. And I mean, I'd get excited but inside I'd have this constant ache and there were just the burdens I was carrying. 

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And, again, I loved people, I loved community, I loved team things, I loved gathering. I would host the parties and those kind of things, I loved all of that stuff. And I think the world says, "Well, it could have been worse." Sure, but I was breathing in the whole performance. So I guess I'm saying at the time, sure, it looked like it worked.

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Like, "Oh, wow, you get good grades and you did things with your career. and you achieved these things, and, oh, Rebecca, you do so much." Yes, but at what cost? And, so, while I had some really great fun memories, I still am right now in a massive rewiring my nervous system, and what it means to rest, and to downshift, and to not be moving towards achieving. 

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I mean, I don't think I'm going to check out of that ever. Because that was so connected to my safety, and to my identity, and to my belonging. 

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Alison: Yes, but when did you begin to realize that consciously, right? In hindsight, again, there was a cost, there was an ache, "I knew it." But when did you begin to, consciously, realize, "I've got to change something?"

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Rebecca: Well, you were there for that moment, Alison, in D.C., and you and I were coming back from a late dinner and we were mugged. And I remember you got jumped first, and then I jumped on the guy that jumped on you, and then the other guys jumped on me. 

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And I'm laughing because it feels so surreal. And then I remember I heard this wild noise and I realized it was me screaming. And I then I heard your voice saying, "Just let him have it." And I realized they just wanted our backpacks, they didn't want to hurt us. 

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So I relaxed so they could pull my backpack off, and they ran. I ended up going to the hospital because I had smashed my knee in the struggle. And I walked or kind of limped on crutches into my therapist's office, I had just started therapy. And my therapist looks up at me, as I enter the door on my crutches, and smiles and says, "Oh, it's nice to see you leaning on something." 

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And I was like, "Oh." And I wanted to cuss her out, I was so angry at her . And then at work, I was working for a senator at the time. I kept getting up on my crutches and going to talk to staff, and moving around. And everyone was like, "Rebecca, you don't have to come to our office, sit your butt down and heal your knee."

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People were getting mad at me, and I'm like, "Bo, I'm not going to let this get me down. I have to keep showing I can do this." There was no downshifting. So that was the beginning of an unraveling that showed up over the next couple of decades, for sure, but that's a big one. When you asked that question as you were prepping for this call, I was like, "It was that moment."

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Alison: I want to pause on it for a second, because I've never told that story on this podcast. And there are a couple of things I want to tease out. I mean, first of all, I don't think I realized, at that time, that you had started seeing a therapist. It was before therapy was really normative in a way. 

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Rebecca: Yes.

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Alison: So it's not like we were talking. Actually, I'm just realizing, I didn't realize you did have a therapist at the time. It wasn't something that we all did. I mean, we knew about it, we knew about therapists, it was on the front end of it. 

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Rebecca: Yes, I've been in and out of therapy most of my life with family; we did group therapy. My parents brought us to therapy when they were divorcing. So, for me, I pretty much saw how I didn't want to be a therapist through almost all of the therapists I had up until the one in D.C., which she worked out of a church. 

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So I wanted to see someone with a faith-based orientation that was important to me. I never had done that before, and that was a beautiful a gift. 

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So, yes, I already had that and it was across town from where I worked. So I had to get on the metro and go across town and then go up a hill. So I ended up taking cabs to see her because I couldn't get there on time on my lunch break, if I had to do it on my crutches. Well, it's interesting because I just realized, again, we've known each other a long time. So I grew up in a very Christian culture that would've seen going to a therapist as a little bit outside. 

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Rebecca: Sure.

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Alison: And, so, I'm interested, I don't think I had realized that for you that'd been more a part of the norm. And you knew you needed help and that was something that had been part of your... It hadn't been necessarily that effective, potentially. Because I always like to ask people on this podcast. Every time I ask somebody, "When you reached out for help what was the result?"

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I get mixed. Some people are, "I had a terrible experience with a therapist." Or, "I had a great experience with a therapist." So I like bringing that to the surface, because it's important for people to realize that just going to a therapist isn't necessarily the fix. It's finding the right person to come alongside you.

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So this is a little bit of a tangent, I want to back up for just a second. Because through this experience of the achieving, and the ache, and the loneliness, and knowing there was this disparity. There were some people coming alongside of you, at some point, but it wasn't, necessarily, helping. Is that correct? 

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Rebecca: I think I would say, too, one of the gifts that if there's something that I wanted or knew I needed, I just went for it. And I don't know how conscious it was, it was just like, "There's a gap in my life, so I need to figure out how to fill the gap."

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And, so, from a young age, I don't know if it's just... I've got a parent who is an entrepreneur and you get scrappy, and you figure things out. But there was just this sense of knowing and looking for more. 

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I've always been hungry for what's more, what's better, what's different from a young age. And then if I saw something that was an injustice, like the therapist that saw my whole family when we my parents were divorcing, and he would get mad at me for being mad. And I remember I slammed the door, and one of his pictures fell and he yelled at me about that. And I had so much enjoyed that I got to him, and I just remember that, too. 

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But if I saw an injustice, I wanted to better it. There was always this sense of improving. I had to improve everything; myself, my environment, others. But I was also the one, particularly in high school and middle school that people would come talk to, no surprise. 

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It was like they would come down to me with all their questions about boys, and relationships, and all the things. Even though I was friends with everyone, I wasn't really in a serious relationship, but I was the go-to.

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Alison: Mm-hmm. 

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Rebecca: And, so, there was just this sense of wanting to learn, to better, to grow, to be different than what I was seeing at home. I knew, early on, that what I was being taught wasn't the way. And, so, when things weren't effective I ended... there is a sense I did end that. 

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So I hadn't thought about it that way. And even if some of the therapists weren't helpful. I remember in second grade going to a family therapy session and my parents listing all the drugs they were using, and substances they were using, and then they dropped me back off at school. And I remember sitting in this classroom waiting for everyone to come back from recess going, "What just happened?"

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And like, "Oh, my gosh, that was horrible." So, yes, it took me a while. But this wonderful woman in D.C., she had just this beautiful integrative approach with clinical and theological approach, and just presence. And, so, when I walked in on crutches after our mugging, that was the time I started to realize I couldn't just push through. I could stop, and feel, and heal what happened.

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Alison: And she had the trust with you to say what she said. It wasn't the first session when you walked in, and there was that trust and that safety there. What's interesting, Rebecca, and, again, I want to zoom back to this mugging. But I'm learning about you, as a friend and in our friendship, even thinking about your relationship with therapy. 

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Where you and I, we both have this hustle, productivity, get the job done part of us, but it manifests very differently. And even in your relationships with therapists, I'm going to call it, and you can correct me on this. But I'm thinking about the Fight/Flight response, and it's like you'll go into fight mode. Even with that early therapist you're like, "I'll go. Man, I've got fight, I'll go to the therapist, I'll get there. I mean, I had to, my parents dragged me there." But there was that a little bit of fight. Or "I'll leave."

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Or, "I'm happy if I get to him."

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Rebecca: Yes.

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Alison: And then in the mugging, that's where I'm circling back to, there was that fight response. "Man, I'm going to protect my friend." And what's fascinating, I have much more of that Flight/Fawn, so I would never have gone to a therapist. You couldn't have paid me to go. I was halfway through my doctoral training to become one and I was like, "No way." So my way is to avoid or I fight through fleeing. I go the opposite direction. 

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So actually it's interesting, so my protective strategy is I won't protect myself with someone who's not helping me. So I just won't go near them. I won't give anybody a chance, I'll keep everybody out, that's how I protect myself. 

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Whereas you would go in and if it got bad or if it wasn't helpful, you would speak up a little bit more, and that's an oversimplification. But I want to zoom in on that mugging moment because that is where just for-

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Rebecca: Pretty indicative of my personality.

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Alison: Well, but, yes, both of our responses, if you think of that survival, that nervous system response. 

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Rebecca: Yes.

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Alison: I remember, vividly, I could tell, I don't remember if you did. I remember thinking, "Oh, this doesn't feel good." We're walking, I was like, "Oh, this isn't good." I felt it, I just collapsed. I don't even think I screamed. 

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I mean, I realized, "Oh, my gosh, when faced with danger I won't fight, I won't run, I will just surrender." That was scary for me. You on the other hand went into fight. I mean, you were going to protect me. It's interesting because those are those survival mechanisms.

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Rebecca: It was of value, too, because I remember there was this moment where I looked at you and this guy. Because these were really tall guys, they were three guys and you and I are not. We're not blessed with height, but we're blessed with might. But and I remember just thinking, "Well, if I'm going to go, I'm not going to go just standing here watching my friend get hurt." And I was just all in, and that was something I really tapped into. I was like, "Okay."

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But what was interesting is some of our mutual guy friends, I felt a little shame, because they said, "Oh, if it was just Rebecca, she never would've been mugged." There was almost this sense of like, "She's so tough." You know what I mean? Like my strength was a repellent and that's been an interesting dance. Where people are drawn and repelled by strength.

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And, so, yes, I think that was an interesting time where I started to own that. But that was a clear moment, it was almost like I just hear this God moment, of like, "If you're going to go." And I just didn't. I mean you were getting hurt and I was like, "Screw this." 

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Excuse me, but you're right about the fight and connecting it to producing and productivity. I don't know how to downshift and I'm just getting a handle of downshifting. It's like, "Okay." 

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Because I think even in one of our conversations, maybe, this year. You're like, "Rebecca, you don't always have to be improving, you are enough now." And I was like, "Oh, yes." It's like I never want to settle. And I'm like, "Oh, geez, I've breathed in with so many of the leaders I work with, and so many of the clients I work with, and my clinical work. That when am I enough?" 

I'm like, "Oh, shoot, my enough, it was there when I was born." 

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And, so, how to separate that from I still want to refine, and grow, and push, but then even that can be its own drug of choice for me. And I have to sit with the discomfort of just being. And, so, I'm really trying to pay attention to that because I love to do, and create, and push, and challenge. 

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But then at what expense to myself, my wellbeing, the most important relationships, and rest, and play, those things that I used to laugh at. Like, "Oh, rest and play, that's for those wimpy folks that need to. This is my life, I work." Oh, my gosh, it's embarrassing that I think about it. But you know me, then, and it still comes up every now and then, too.

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Alison: Well, this is the whole series, each of these productivity, whatever you want to call it, has its strengths, and I see, to this day, those strengths in you. You are going to show up. You've shown up for me at times when I'm like, "You shouldn't be showing up for me, you're tired."

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As your friend I know this about you, you will show up. Even when you're exhausted, excellence, justice, all of these things are really beautiful, good qualities. And I think that's what's really hard about these parts of us because, and there's a cost.

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Rebecca: There's a big.

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Alison: There's a cost, we have to balance them out. And, so, again, going back to this moment, we've been circling around it. But there's this moment where there's a physical. You're walking into your therapist's office in crutches, and she says, "It's good to see you leaning on something."

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And, again, even today I can see it in your face, you're shaking your head at yourself, "Yes, it took that." And even then, I know there was still many more, but it took that almost physicalizing something embodied to slow down just a little bit, which was still not quite easy for you. 

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Rebecca: And parenthood was the other big catalyst because for a while, then, I was finding work and family were at war with each other. And I'm like, "Oh, that's not working." And, so, a few years ago I really wanted to say, "Okay, my loves; what I love to do, and to give, to serve, to work, and my family are going to be on the same team. I'm not going to pivot them against each other." 

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But that's when I started realizing, if anything, it's taking me away from being the best partner. The best parent, and the best friend that I want to be, and community member, I need to rethink this. Because work was and producing was trumping it all and it was so reflexive.

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Alison: Can you tell me a little bit about that? As a parent, how did you begin to notice that? What are some examples of when you noticed, "Oh, my gosh, the reflexive instinct here is something I've got to start to pay attention to."

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Rebecca: Yes, and it's something that my husband Gavin and I talked about early on. He knows that I love to just create, and build, and try, and do new things. He knew it more about me than I did. It was a few years into the marriage. And I'm like, "I think I'm an entrepreneur."

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And he's like, "Yes, like really." And then with kids, having kids, I realized many folks who've grown up in homes where there are a lot of challenges. I know, for me, going into parenthood, I knew more of what I didn't want to do than what I did. So I had a lot of things to learn there too. 

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Oh, and then being a trained psychotherapist with the trauma specialty, I was like, "Oh, it's all about presence. And, so, how am I showing up with my littles? How am I showing up with myself? And I can't do that if I'm spinning out and running around."

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And then I started recognizing, "Oh, okay." And, so, it's just navigating that, and especially as they got a little bit older. I mean, some people have different phases they love for those who parent, or care-give, or are step-parents. 

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I mean, my kids are in their preteen and teen, and this is my sweet spot. But also just those moments of being with, and that's when I had to slow down, and then all of a sudden stuff came up. But also it was like, "Oh, I want to do things differently and I can't do it all."

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I started realizing my capacities. I mean, when we're in our 20s it feels like we can just do about anything. When you're blessed with physical ability and health, you do that. And then just the fatigue. And my oldest daughter is on the autism spectrum and there were some other things coming around that, and I got really protective there. 

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And, so, I realized, "Okay, if this is a priority, to create the home and the safe space that I wanted for them." Then I needed to make some shifts in what I was valuing, what I was worshiping unintentionally, and started to really redefine what producing and productivity were. And, so, yes, I'm still untangling it from it all, but having kids was the next phase of that awakening.

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Alison: I always love how intentional you are about those things. You become aware, you get intentional, you get the resources that you need. But I can imagine in the context of the childhood trauma. 

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The history around which this beautiful, again, entrepreneurial, creative, productive, can-do woman that God made you to be. This is good. This is a good part of you. But yet some of these ways in which it got extreme.

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Rebecca: Yes.

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Alison: Out of a context of trying, it was your way out of pain for those early years. So, again, at every moment, and we know this to be true, that when we step back a little bit. Whether it's the pleasing, the perfecting, the performing, whatever it is, things come up because we do those things for a reason. 

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And, so, you have the value. You're like, "I want to be present for my kids, I know this is important. I've got to shift my relationship to work, to producing." What came up for you and how did you care for yourself, as you made that shift? 

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Because I think that's why it's hard for people to change and to shift, is things come up for us. For me, if I shift away from a little bit of that people-pleasing drive, and over time. I'm aware of it, and it's like, "Oh, yes, that's why I do it because it's scary."

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Rebecca: Yes.

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Alison: There's stuff under the hood there.

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***

Rebecca: It took me a good chunk of years to untangle myself from a lot of commitments, and spaces, and things that I developed. But I realized I needed to simplify, and I got really picky on what I was giving my attention to, and who I was giving my attention to, and that felt important. And it is still a challenge, and you and I've had many a conversation about social media on that area too. 

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But it involved a lot of reorganization with who was our inner circle. What does support look like for me? And I found a lot of support in the work spaces, but I was diving deep into Brené Brown's Daring to Lead community. 

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So I'm a certified facilitator and also a consultant, and I've done trainings for them. But to do that work you have to, it's like the self of therapist. And with IFS it's the same thing, it's a way of leaving. Shame, resilience, IFS, they're a way of living and being. 

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And, so, I was drawn to these methodologies that weren't just frameworks that I could teach. I had to live it if I was going to be a decent model for this, for anyone else who was wanting to learn it. 

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So it was this intuitive being drawn to the things that we needed to learn for ourselves. And, so, I was learning what I needed to learn also to help others learn it too. So these communities, that I'm a part of professionally, became the space. And at the same time, in my personal life, my husband and I had to get rid or do a big reorg. 

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Because we realized, to have our home be safe it meant setting tougher boundaries. Maybe with folks who felt entitled to our family because of being related, or proximity, or whatever, and being intentional about who we sought out. And it's harder to make friends and build community in that post-college era because everyone is so full and their schedules. 

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And I think that's the other thing, too, is I try not to stay busy. I don't want to be busy. I want my life to be full of things that I love and that are aligned, and I know that's a privilege and a gift. And sometimes we got to just do the things because we got to do the things, and adulting is what it is. 

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But that's become part of it too. And I had to do a lot of work with some of the voices I internalized of, "Who do you think you are to be..." Fill in the blank. And I came from a family where there's a lot of brilliant, talented people, but everyone was siloed to their one thing.

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And, then, either this person is this, so that means you can't be that too. And I am a multiplicity of talents, and gifts, and things, but I didn't pursue them because that wasn't nurtured because I wasn't tapped with that. And, so, part of parenthood helped me discover that too. Because there's that thing awakened, that, kind of, Mama bear for me awakened. But, again, it took me quite a while to detangle.

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So when Covid hit, I had been feeling for a while to simplify and began the process of scaling back, and released the brick and mortar that I'd been running, and the team of 10 that I'd been leading. And I started this business to help with leadership, coaching, and consulting. Which I've been dreaming about and working on for years before that, but solidified that so I could be home as much as I can as my kids were getting older. 

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But it's tricky, Alison, I still struggle to rest well and I'm really trying to build in practices, and I'm trying to check myself on what's the meaning and motivation of what's going on in my head. "Am I trying to create, or build, or cultivate something out of protection and fear?" 

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Or is it something that's coming up that it's, almost, like I cannot get it out. And that's what I've seen with other projects I've done. I have to just write it out, or create it, or sketch it out. And, so, I'm trying to get be better discerning of that and really trying to like butt on the couch watching a show, or reading a book, sketching, journaling, getting outside, just slowing that down.

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Because I do love what I do but I'm starting to see I don't have to keep that drive that, as a young kid, that helped me, go, "I got to do something different. I got to find other mentors or other resources." That younger part can still show up, if she gets scared and feels disconnected from me. 

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Alison: Yes, and how does she, that younger part of you, as you rumble with this idea of rest.

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Rebecca: Yes.

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Alison: How does she experience rest and play? 

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Rebecca: Hmm, okay, she's a real goofball and a real dork, and my kids don't always enjoy her, but I do. And I enjoy seeing my kids get annoyed with me or roll their eyes, and I have to watch that because I can push it a little much because it's so entertaining. 

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But, yes, I'm just a goofball. I lose that place when I let myself just let her lead a little bit. I'm not caring what other people think. It's awkward dance parties, singing at the top of my lungs. It's not editing myself, or on the other hand, it's a deep place of deep listening and curiosity. 

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I'm in a just a radical presence of, "Oh, my gosh, a new person, a new story, a new thing to learn." And it's like sitting criss-cross, applesauce around, and it's like, "Oh, tell me more." And there's just this joy, I love learning from other people and just listening to their stories, that just delights my system. Because that little girl likes to see herself in other stories or she gets a lot of perspective, from others' lived experiences. 

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Alison: I love that because, especially, for producers, I love that you're touching on this idea of rest. Rest is hard for a couple of reasons. Some of it is the self-imposed-

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Rebecca: It sounds weak.

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Alison: Yes, it sounds weak. Some of it is there's a lot of energy. I know when tap into the young producer performer in me, she's just full of energy. She wants to move. She wants to move. And, so, I've had to think about rest in a different way. And that's what I'm kind of hearing you say rest for her. That's why I was curious, what rest for her isn't necessarily putting her nose in a book, it might be.

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I had to learn that rest doesn't, necessarily, mean sitting still in a quiet room. Rest for me might be a lot of movement, but just movement that's fun, and playful, and there's a lot of different ways we can rest. 

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Rebecca: Yes, I mean it's Tahoe for me. Lake Tahoe, which we discovered, I'm in San Diego now and I've lived in the Midwest, in the East coast, and I've lived in Europe. And, so, Tahoe's this beautiful mixture of some of the most significant parts of my life. And lake life is different than ocean life and has a different energy to it. There's a stillness inside, even when my body is moving in nature or when I am just listening to others. 

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Going to my Sunday school, just one of my spiritual practices, and just listening, really, watching my judgers or my defenders come up. Because it's this beautifully, it's diverse in theology, and political orientation, and socio-economic status. It's not very diverse in race, necessarily, but it's this place that helps get me out of my polarities. 

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And, so, these parts kind of all come with me and listen, and come, and we don't break bread together, but we're talking about the Word. And, then, my Sunday and school teacher will stir things up. And then parts of me like my know-it-all parts, my I-want-to-teach parts, my defense parts. And then there's just those little girl's, it's like, "Oh, what do they think?"

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"And what do they think?" Or, "Oh, that wasn't very nice to say." 

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And, so, just sitting with that and delighting. But it really has been good to be in community too, and get out of, sometimes, the bubbles and the work zones that we can be, and in the echo chambers. 

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So maybe rest isn't the best word for it but that spiritual practice of just rubbing shoulders with people, and being in community that's not about creating, and producing, and productivity, and being identified by whatever titles or letters by my name. It's, "We are connecting and coming together." That fills my cup and it's life-giving, even when it's a little hard, if that makes sense too. 

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Alison: I love that. The word that comes to mind is curiosity. When you're just given permission to just be curious and just be present, without having to be anybody or do anything. And, again, that's energizing, it's life-giving. 

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It might not fit that classical definition of rest, but for you it's giving the young one inside of you instead of producing, or performing, or earning her words. She just gets to... I get this picture of her just Curious George, just super curious and enjoying that, delighting in that. 

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Rebecca: And what I've seen, especially, with the leaders that I most admire and the leaders that I get to work with. They're the ones that detox from the very dangerous personal and professional development messages, that we've all been sold and breathed, in over the years. About pushing through, and exiling our pain, and overcoming, and all of that stuff. And it's like once a bit and then coasting. 

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It's just so full of privilege and power over, and not full of that consent of those different parts of us that just want to be seen. And the leaders that I'm drawn to, and the leader that I want to be, is definitely one that's able to sit with a lot more of that presence, and that curiosity, and owning. Sitting with my discomfort in the presence of someone else's discomfort. And I can't do that if I'm trying to fix, strategize, mobilize, organize, I can't. 

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And, so, I'm finally getting it. I mean, I've read that, I've been taught that, and now it's starting to metabolize in my system more and integrate. And I think that's the gift of age, honestly. I think that's taken me a while to work through that and that's the gift of feeling a little bit more settled in that.

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But I'm also seeing it with my kids though, too. My kids, they don't have all that stuff. They're carrying a lot from the times they're growing up. But when I see them listening. When I see them learning, I see them asking questions with abandon, and a lack of self-consciousness, that's beautiful. I didn't have that as a kid. 

So seeing leaders who can create spaces for real sharing. For a welcoming of the mess, and the imperfection too, and for collective struggle. I was always taught that I had to do this on my own, the lone wolf. The very individualistic way of surviving and excelling. There's no I and team and just cheesy as that is, I forgot that for a long time because that's what I needed to do to survive and to be able to do something different. 

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And, so, when I am producing at the expense of connecting, or really the presence of witnessing someone, that does harm. And I've done that, and I, again, untangling from that, not intentional, but still the impact's not great. But when we're raised with, "Oh, you're producing, you're doing so much, you're so great." You just go into automatic pilot but we lose touch with who's in front of us. 

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Alison: Yes, that's beautiful. I love the picture of, it's interesting because you've told me a lot about that Sunday school class, and I never really pieced it together before that. But for you being there and giving yourself permission to be with all that's going on there. Without needing to take over, take charge, strategize, teach, instruct, just be with is a spiritual practice for you that makes so much sense to me. 

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Rebecca: You got it.

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Alison: And it's being part of a community because being part of a community, when you're used to being an achiever, a producer, it can feel inefficient. At least to me, it can feel inefficient. It can feel messy like you're saying. 

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But I love almost the spiritual practice of being with, just watching, noticing. And even what you were saying there was that different energy. It's not judging, it's not criticizing, it's, "Oh, that wasn't nice." Just how kids are when they just state what's true. They're just, "Oh, ouch."

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Rebecca: And saying that, hey, I noticed in me when that was said, this is what that brought up, versus, "You need to stop this if you were really a good Christian." And that's the circular leadership where the power is more egalitarian versus that hierarchical that you and I were raised on, on so many levels. And this top-down has just got me rethinking, it's about power too. There's so much about power because I felt like I was so powerless as a kid. And I had to do whatever I could to maintain some level of my own sense of power or to reclaim it. 

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Alison: Mm-hmm.

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Rebecca: And I think now, more than ever, with people there's just so much hurt. So much polarizations, and so much pain, that's where it's like, "Okay, that's the call on us to be able to sit with our discomfort so that we can sit with others." And I know that I can go into that produce/perform. I can put the smile on, I know how to appease. You and I, both, probably, we got PhDs in appeasing, but I also just want to be real. 

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And, so, I think that's the work and, so, there's something about rest that's very much connected in me being seen, and me being present. Me witnessing myself and what's going on with me, and allowing others to see that, outside of my identities that are related to work or producing. 

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Alison: That's beautiful. I mean, this is exactly this whole series. It's moving from managing the perceptions going in, "I'll be the can-do person here, which is exhausting for me and doesn't really lead me to the connections I so deeply need."

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And, again, just that picture of you sitting in that circle with the freedom to say, "Oh, that didn't sit well with me." There's so many ways we can be authentic, we can be real, we can speak on behalf of what we're noticing inside of us. And you're doing such a good job, Rebecca, of it's all the stuff we talk about. It starts with being curious and compassionate with all of our own internal-

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Rebecca: It's ground zero. 

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Alison: With all the things that go on inside of us, and that's what enables us to show up with other people, and sit with all that's going on in that room. All that's going on with our kids, all that's going on in our families, all that's going on in our church groups. Whatever the room is-

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Rebecca: In the world. 

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Alison: In the world. Not silencing, not fleeing, not just caving, or fawning, which was my go-to. Not needing to fight, or lead, or take charge.

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Rebecca: Not everything has to be a danged fight or debate.

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Alison: Yes, but simply being present, and that's where we start to feel real connection. We build that safety inside of ourselves, that allows us to be in a room where we don't require perfection to feel safe. We need enough, we need a critical mass of safety, sure, but then we can be in that room and be present to ourselves. Present to others with that same curiosity and compassion.

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Rebecca: Can I add one more thing, though? I think that's important to this too. For me, for so long, too, I was raised in a mixed faith home. But I didn't really start my own faith journey until the end of high school. And for so long, the messages I got around faith was, "If you believed then life was good."

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"If you had faith and if things were struggling, I was doing something wrong."

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And, so, that message played upon my producing, and performing, and productivity parts. It's like, "Oh, if there's struggle then I got to figure out what flaw is in me." This deficiency versus kind of the more Imago Dei model of really seeing myself as an image bearer. And those around me as an image bearer, regardless of even how they identified in their faith journey. 

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And, so, for me, there was a lot of that unhooking of some of those messages that I had to... or of this image of, "if I am going to be a success I have to have it all together, and I can't show the underbelly of my humanity." 

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And I'm not saying all the things all the time, some things are just sacred and private, but I had to start owning it myself. And I was exiling my story because it didn't fit this narrative of what it meant to be a good follower of Christ. 

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And, so, that was also a big part for me to allow myself to downshift and to be able to find more rest. When I realized to lean into what God said to Jesus right after He was baptized, "You are my beloved, and with you I am well pleased."

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This was right after He was baptized but before, at least, what we know, of all the miracles, all the things He did, "You are my beloved, and with you I am well pleased." That was right after... I was like, "Okay." So there's something about that, that it took a while to metabolize, too. But I think that plays a role in it for me in my journey too.

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Alison: Yes, we can Christianize our hustle, I hear you on that, and that's a really good word. There's a lot of layers there, thank you so much for that. I'm curious, What would you want to say to that younger you, whether it's the 15-year-old, absorbing all of those tropes about the lone wolf, shoulder-pad wearing female hero. What would you say to her now? 

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Rebecca: I would say, "You probably aren't going to take this in, but this doesn't have to be the path. And I'm here for you when you're ready to listen." Because I wouldn't have listened, I just know her, I should have been. 

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I'm a redhead and I live up to the stereotype of stubbornness, but I just would've said, "I'm here. I'm here a little sooner maybe to her. I'll be just like, "There are other ways, when you figure it out that this isn't working. You don't have to keep pushing one result or one outcome, and I'm here to listen, and I'm here to be with you when you're ready."

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Alison: Sounds like wise parenting. The non-shame based, non-power over. Just, "I see what's happening. I know you and I'm here, when you're ready."

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Rebecca: When you're ready to listen. 

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Alison: Yes, I love it. What would you to say to others who are listening, who struggle with producing, performing, for their worth? 

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Rebecca: I'm here for you when you're ready to downscale, I'm just kidding. I see you. I see you. There's another way. I guess depending on where you're at in your relationship with your awareness of all this. Just to know that there is another way and this is said a lot, but your worth is never on the table for a negotiation. 

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We're the ones that put it on the table for others to have an opinion on it and to appraise us. And reclaiming that is one of the scariest and most empowering things you'll ever do, is detaching from the world's having an opinion on you, and your worth, and your faith, and your identity, as a human, as a follower of Christ, whatever it is you may be doing and that's the work. 

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And to be so picky on who you allow to have a say into your life and what you allow to have be said, be discerning. Not out of fear and instead to have an open but guarded heart in the process too. And I will say girlfriends, for me, friends are the best, if you're a female listening to this. 

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I mean, Alison, our reconnecting after all our years and our conversations have been medicine to my soul just to be able to. There was the most integrated conversation. So finding one or two people that you can really show up and not edit, is the beginning. Where you're not filtering and just saying the things, and getting seen and loved in that place is really a powerful and healing place to be. 

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Alison: I love that, and just that reminder it's quality not quantity, when it comes to those key friends, those unedited friendships. It doesn't have to be a ton; one is life changing.

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Rebecca: You got it. 

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Alison: Rebecca, thank you so much just for being so honest and so real. I know we've barely scratched the surface. If you've been someone who just feels that tension in your body of, "I can get the job done." 

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It's a hard journey. It's a long journey to begin to release, and it doesn't mean you stop being productive. You're one of the most productive people I know. It means you relate to how you show up as a productive person in a different way. Tell us what's bringing out the best of you, right now?

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Rebecca: I mean, some of this is cheesy like being instead of doing. Being with instead of doing for. My word of the year, or words of the year, slow and bold and slow. So slowing down and not overcommitting my schedule has been a beast to detangle, and then being bold in that place.

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I think people, like I said, my friendship with you, my relationship with my family, my Sunday school, my neighbors, my mom friends. And, honestly, I've always valued this about me, but being around folks who have different views on things is a huge value of mine. I've had it from a young age, whether it's different faith, political, worldview, you name it, that brings out the best of me. 

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So that I don't get into my head or I'm always challenging my beliefs. So that either I know I need to rethink them or I feel more anchored in what I believe. So I can always want to be pursuing and refining, but I think that that's important. 

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And I, honestly, like many people I work with, I knew who I was supposed to be, and what I was supposed to value, and what I was supposed to do. And it's just taken me a while to figure out who I am, what I really love, what really matters. 

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"Out of the heart flows the well spring of life." Those desires of our heart that I squelched down to try and fit in. And, so, I really just think taking that time to be with people, books, TV shows, experiences. Live music is my love language right now, and that's where I go, "Okay, I like me, I connect with me, I'm proud." 

When we walk away from people or experiences where we feel less than or smaller, it's amazing what we tolerate, Alison. It is amazing what we tolerate in the name of things that we've deemed good, but just stop tolerating. Just stop tolerating and speaking truth to BS, and speaking truth to BS with love.

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Alison: I love that. What needs and desires are you working to protect? 

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Rebecca: I think there's something about getting older, but my needs and desires to be present with my family, with the clients that have invested their trust in me, and treasured friendships, my health, and my calendar. I am trying to create more space in my calendar, that's my word for 2023, is space. Space and pace, which is you know me, that's going to be an adventure. 

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Alison: Wait, you went from slow and bold this year, to space and pace next year?

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Rebecca: That's the fruits of this year, yes, it's nice.

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Alison: Interesting.

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Rebecca: Yes, trying not to over commit because there are the big things I want to create and I want to do. And I realized I have lived outside of my margin and my capacity for so long. Being a high producer, just like many of the clients I work with, we don't know we're in crisis and we're overwhelmed till we're hanging off the cliff by a pinky.

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Alison: Mm-hmm. 

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Rebecca: And even then we're just like, "Oh, my pinky is sore." Versus, "We're hanging off the cliff." So I don't want to be that way anymore, so I'm protecting. The full body sacrifice is not okay unless... 

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I mean, again, like I said, I'll jump in. If you're getting mugged, I'll jump in. If I know you and I'm there, I will jump in, that's a certain kind of full body sacrifice. But the day-to-day because of the grind of culture, and the shoulds, and the have-tos that aren't aligned with values, no. That take me away from the most important relationships, I am fighting for that. 

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Alison: I love that, and also because you are someone who's so whole body, all in. All the more reason the space and pace is needed to protect because you will be that person. And I've said it time, you will show up, I know you will. Therefore, you have to make sure you're protecting that space. 

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How can people find you, Rebecca, connect with you, your podcast? 

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Rebecca: Yes, wherever you love to listen to podcasts, you can subscribe to the Unburdened Leader. And if you listen and are impacted by an episode, I'd be honored for you to leave a review and a comment, I want to hear from you. 

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You can also follow me an Instagram @rebeccachingmft, or sign up for my weekly Unburdened Leader Email at www.rebeccaching.com. 

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Alison: Thank you so much for being here, you're the best. 

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Rebecca: Ah, it's been an honor my friend, I appreciate you.

You want to keep the peace at all costs. The problem is sometimes anger is warranted. Sometimes conflict is needed. What do you do when everything in you does not want to be the one to speak up?

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On today's episode of the podcast, I am joined by my dear friend Rowena Day. This is a powerful conversation for anyone who has struggled with conflict, avoided anger, or stayed quiet to get along. The second half of this episode is a WHOLE WORD. Listen in for deep wisdom on how to come out of that protective peacekeeping shell and start using your voice. Do not miss the end, when Rowena describes what she's learning about finding her voice from parenting 4 young children.

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Here's what we cover:

1. Why it's normal to talk to yourself and how to pay attention to that inner dialogue

2. The power of attunement-and why interrupting and fixing each other doesn't work

3. Why we learn to mute our voices

4. The power of generational messages

5. Why we push anger aside, especially as women

6. Why it's important for peacekeepers to make friends with anger

7. Rowena's experience of speaking up about toxic behavior she was witnessing

8. Blame shifting and scapegoating in faith communities

9. Embracing the wildness of your your soul

10. The double bind culture puts women in when it comes to using your voice

11. What we can learn from our children

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Thanks to our sponsors:

• Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
• Download Abide Sleep and Pray Meditation and text my promo code BESTOFYOU to 22433 today to get 25% off!

Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Resources

• To learn more about the Fawn Response, the Window of Tolerance, the Empathy Trap and the Mirror of Truth referenced in this episode, check out The Best of You: Break Free From Painful Patterns, Mend Your Past, And Discover Your True Self in God, by Alison Cook
• To learn more about Parts, Internal Family Systems,  Speaking on Behalf vs. From an emotion, and the C's of self-leadership referenced in this episode, check out my book with Kimberly Miller, Boundaries for Your Soul‍
• ‍LTI: Emmaus communities
• Enneagram Information
• Keep Calm and Carry On WW2 poster
• Family Systems Theory
• Church Hurt and 4 Steps for Healing
• 3 Signs of Bad Church Leadership
• ‍5 Toxic Behaviors & How to Protect Yourself (including Blame Shifting and Scapegoating)‍
• Resources for support

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Scriptures referenced:

• John 2:13-17 Jesus and Anger
• Luke 11:39 Jesus speaks to washing the outside of the cup vs. the inside
• Proverbs 25:15 on the power of gentleness
• Isaiah 9 Jesus as the Prince of Peace
• John 11:35 Jesus wept
• Psalm 18

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Books, Music, and Video referenced:

• "The soul is like a wild animal-tough, resilient, savvy, self-sufficient and yet exceedingly shy. If we want to see a wild animal, the last thing we should do is to go crashing through the woods, shouting for the creature to come out. But if we are willing to walk quietly into the woods and sit silently for an hour or two at the base of a tree, the creature we are waiting for may well emerge, and out of the corner of an eye we will catch a glimpse of the precious wildness we seek." From Let Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer
• When the Heart Waits by Sue Monk Kidd
• "Lord our God, hear my prayer, the prayer of my heart. Bless the largeness inside me, no matter how I fear it." From The Book of Longings by Sue Monk Kidd
• Army of Spider Crabs Shed Their Shells, Blue Planet II Video
• Unwritten Lyrics, by Natasha Beddingfield
• Seeking God's Face devotional
• "Get thee up into a high mountain. Lift up thy voice with strength, lift it up, be not afraid." From Handel's Messiah

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Best of You podcast. I am grinning from ear to ear because I have a dear friend on the show with me today. Her name is Rowena she goes by Roe. She is a friend that I met I want to say 10 years ago, which feels crazy because it does not seem like that long. At a spiritual listening community that we were both a part of. We're going to get into that and talk more about that today. 

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We've stayed in touch. She is that rare blend, where we just connect on the deep and we connect on the light, and we find the same things funny, which is such a rare gift in a friend. We can go from Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Seas, to laughing beside ourselves. So I'm thrilled that she's on the podcast. We'll get more into Rowena's story today. Right now she's, primarily, parenting four beautiful children. What are their ages, Rowena?

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Rowena: They're eight, six, three, and one.

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Alison: So she's in the weeds of parenting, you are in it.

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Rowena: Holy ground every day.

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Alison: Yes, and that's another thing that... my kids are primarily out of the house now. They're 21 and 23 so we're on the opposite ends of the parenting spectrum. Which also makes it fun because we just bring a lot to each other. The other interesting thing about Rowena is you were the eighth of nine children growing up?

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Rowena: Yes.

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Alison: Which is amazing.

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Rowena: Yes, I don't think there's any birth order studies for families of that size.

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Alison: Yes, how many studies have we done on what it means to be the eighth children? I know what you mean.

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Rowena: Yes, I haven't found that info out there yet, but I found it within myself.

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Alison: Yes, and as we've talked, Rowena and I will just talk, we'll use parts language. We like to read a lot of the same stuff. We like to bring the spiritual component in, so I'm just super excited. I asked her to come on today to talk about peacekeeping parts. 

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The parts of us that want to manage perceptions. That want to manage everything through peacekeeping. And I know there's so many of you listening who will relate to that. Where we feel like the best way we can manage how we show up in the world, is to just stay really quiet. 

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Is just to not use our voices and make sure everybody else is getting along. We're going to talk about a lot of things, but that's our main focus. And with that, thank you for being here at Rowena. I know this stirred up a lot inside of you to agree to be here.

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Rowena: It sure did. Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. It feels like labor, a weird labor of coming out, my voice having space. So it's exciting and it is just a powerful and nerve-wracking opportunity.

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Alison: Well, that's what I said when I asked Rowena, because I just love talking to you so much, I wanted to talk to you on the podcast. And one of the things I love is you're not trying to forward yourself, again, to the point of this whole episode.

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And, so, I had to ask so many questions like, "Do you want to do it?" There were so many conflicting parts inside of you. Which made me want you to come on even more because I just love how authentic you are, and how honest you are about things. You were like, "Well, parts of me doing, parts of me do not."

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Rowena: Yes, I remember the day. You said you had some idea you wanted to talk to me about and I was like, "Oh." I had immediately felt those two different parts. The part that was really curious and then the other part that was trying to speak up, and make everybody else comply. That was like, "Whatever her idea is, let's just agree right here and now that we're not going to do anything that puts us out there publicly. We don't do that, that's not for us."

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And all the other parts of me were about ready to be like, "Yes, definitely not. Terrible idea, let's not do that." And I remember closing the fridge and then hearing this other little, brave, voice being like, "Let's just be open to this idea, we're also curious about it."

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And, so, it's weird to talk about yourself in this 'We' term. But we talk to ourselves all day long and, so, that's just a bit of my inner dialogue, that was happening on that day. And, so, then, when you told me the episode was going to be about and it was about this very peacekeeping part, that had tried to speak up and shut it down. I was even more intrigued because we would be talking about the very thing that I had been experiencing on the inside.

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Alison: Yes, again, just a glimpse, that's what I love about Rowena. You're not a therapist, you haven't gone through the training, but you just have this self-awareness. You are, to me, the classic saying, "Still waters run deep." You are so thoughtful with your words and you pay such attention to your inner life. 

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So I want to start us off with how we met, and we first met at this Emmaus Community. It's run by a group out of New England called Leadership Transformations Inc. I'll link to it in the show notes. 

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I highly recommend these communities. They're quarterly retreats for ministry leaders, pastors, counselors, anybody who's interested in just setting aside time to grow spiritually really. And it's a specific way of growing spiritually that I just found so powerful, and really changed even how I do my own work as a counselor, that's where we met. And you can sign up for one year, and, again, it's four quarterly's retreats. 

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And then you have a reading to do in between each retreat. So it's a significant commitment, and we ended up both doing two years. You can do one year or two years. We did the full two years, and I found I needed the full two years. 

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I was really discerning things in my life, and it was retreat five where I got to some real clarity. And, so, I'm curious, Rowena, what led you to sign up for Emmaus and to do that two years of really focused spiritual listening?

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Rowena: Yes, I found out about a one-day women's retreat that was focused on silence and solitude, and listening to yourself and to God. And I read the description, it was offered by LTI also, and I signed up for this one-day thing. I was like, "That sounds really awesome, I want to do that."

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And, so, I went and you could also sign up for an hour spiritual of direction session as part of that retreat. And, so, I was a little bit nervous about that, but signed up. Probably balled my way through the whole spiritual direction session with Diana. But it was just a very structured, yet, very spacious way of listening to someone. 

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And, so, it was deeply profound to have the attunement of someone else. Who was not giving advice, not interrupting, not telling parts of their own story, or quoting Bible verses, or whatever. It was just a very holy, sacred listening. And I'd never really experienced anything like that before, and it just made me really hungry for more. 

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And, so, as we explored, in Emmaus together, we did the Enneagram back in the early days before it was really a big thing. And discovering that I am a type Seven, I identify most as that. And, so, I hunger for things that are satisfying. And, so, I found spiritual direction to be something that was really satisfying. 

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The ability to be heard, be seen, be known to another person, to myself, and to God, all within one sacred hour was just really powerful. And it really stirred up this desire in me to do more of that, and to experience more of that. And then eventually to get training to be a spiritual director, which I'm going to start next spring. 

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So I've been waiting for the right timing for all these years, and I'm really excited about accompanying other people, and journeying alongside them as they attune to themselves and to God. And I just think the inner world that we all have is so interesting, and fascinating, and so worth exploring. And so a type Seven, I love to travel and experience things outwardly. But I've realized, oh, there's so much traveling we can do inside our own selves.

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Alison: I love it. So if you decide you'll come back, I want to do a whole episode on this idea of spiritual listening, spiritual direction. We haven't talked about it, yet, on the podcast. So for those of you who are listening, spiritual direction is a beautiful way to get support. 

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It's not therapy, but it is a structured way of, as you said, just someone who's trained to listen to you. As you also are inviting God to be part of that listening, so it's a guide. We should all have it, that that's my feeling. 

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It's just a beautiful, it's not new, it's actually an ancient practice that has started to grow again. People are starting to talk about it more, it's just beautiful. And I love how you described it, Rowena, and this is what we then both ended up doing.

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So in these quarterly retreats, the spiritual listening community, you spend time listening to each other. Just as you said, each person has a certain amount of time, it's structured. I could go off on a huge tangent on that. That's why I'm going to bookmark it, and say let's do another episode just, literally, teaching people what that's about. Because for me it was transformative, just as you said. 

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You set a timer and you just share what's been on your heart, what's been on your soul, what's been on your mind, what you're struggling with. And in the group situation, the spiritual direction is one-on-one. But the group listening, there's a group of five or six people that listen and they don't try to fix you, and they don't give you advice, and they don't quote Bible verses at you. What they do is, maybe, repeat back to you, "I heard you say this."

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Rowena: Mh-hmm.

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Alison: And it's like, "Whoa." It's that mirror, and I talk about the mirror of truth in The Best of You. And I think it's chapter four where we need those people that hold up that mirror so we can begin to see ourselves as God sees us. 

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So I love how you just talked about that, and we've just continued to connect so much. I will say that it's supposed to be this very... there's a lot of solitude, there's a lot of quiet, you do all the spiritual listening. 

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At the meals, that's where Rowena and I, we clicked on all that. But, man, at the meals, we were just busting our guts laughing and everybody loved that. I mean, I think we also brought a little levity when it was appropriate to do so. But we connected on so many levels and I so appreciated you there. 

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All right, so I want to dive in a little bit because you talk about this peacekeeping part of you, and I want to hear a little bit more about your story. About when did you first learn to avoid conflict? When did you first learn that, essentially, you tell me, but it's like muting your voice. Keeping your voice very small was the best way to stay safe.

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Rowena: Hmm, yes, so I think to look at that picture, it requires stepping back even further and looking at a much bigger picture of generations before me. And, so, my parents were both born in England and near the end of World War II. And a phrase that has come back, in full force in recent years, is the phrase "Keep calm and carry on."

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And that was a phrase that originated in 1939 just before the war, anticipating the dark days ahead. And it was postered in and put in places that were going to be targeted by German bombers. And it was to boost morale, and there were two and a half millions of these posters displayed. And then a copy was discovered in 2000, and then it blew up after that. An original copy of the poster was discovered in a bookshop, and then that's when it of re-came out.

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Alison: Mm-hmm. 

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Rowena: And I've been thinking a lot about that phrase and how that probably was a very helpful thing in that time, of significant trauma, for people in that time. And then I wonder if that message has stayed in the bodies of all the people since then. 

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This idea of keeping calm and carrying on, and how that can be a really powerful thing. But if that's the only thing we're doing and we're not able to pay attention to our anger, or our grief, or sadness, or fear, or disgust, any of these really hard emotions. If we're just always focusing on keeping calm and carrying on, then we are not addressing other things. 

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And, so, I don't think this phrase was ever spoken to me in my childhood. But I think, somehow, it lives on in the collective of our society. I think as a society we do not know how to be angry. We are very confused about what to do with anger. We know, cognitively, that anger is not all bad. But I've just wrestled a lot in my life, "Well, what does it look like to be angry? I'm so confused about this emotion."

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Alison: Mm-hmm.  

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Rowena: And we know that Jesus's anger led Him. So anger can be dangerous, it can lead to harmful behavior, and it can also lead to justice because there are things we need to be outraged about. Things like violence, and greed, and racism, abuse of power, sex trafficking, the list could go on forever. Of things that we need to be angry about. 

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And, so, somehow, as I've been unpacking, I think just in the society and in the waters that we're in. It has not really been permissible for women, especially, to feel anger. And I think we sort of push it aside, or at least I did, and I didn't know how to express it. I didn't have the tools; I didn't have the knowledge. 

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I just knew that I didn't like the feeling in my body when other people were angry. I didn't like the feeling in my own body when I was angry. And I guess I learned, maybe, that my voice had the power, sometimes, to make people angry and therefore I did not feel comfortable with that power. 

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It could elicit anger and I want peace and harmony. Those are really important things to me, and joy. And, so, if my voice was, sometimes, the thing that was going to elicit anger, then, subconsciously, I kept my voice out of the picture.

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Alison: Yes, I love that you just gave us the big brush strokes, the big paint brush strokes. I do want to add you grew up in Canada.

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Rowena: Mh-hmm.

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Alison: And I'm curious, you're younger than me. But my guess is your parents are, probably, since you're the eighth of nine children, our parents are of a similar generation. And I think that generation, what we were raised in, that keep calm carry on, really does embody how we were raised. 

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And it's not all bad, and I love how you're describing it, as there is a time and a place for that. And, especially, when you're going into - we've got to just all keep calm. But when that permeates down to the detriment of, "Oh, actually we need to bring some hard things to the surface." This is this season now, that there was a time for that. 

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But then there's also a time to, "We need to bring some of the hard things to the surface, so that we can honor and work through." And that means bringing up some conflict, bringing up some anger, bringing up some of these emotions, that actually need to be healed. There's also a time for that and you're making a really good point. That a lot of that message filtered all the way down.

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Rowena: Yes, like what do you do when you're angry? How do you keep calm and carry on then?

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Alison: As opposed to this idea of harmony or peace really being, it's not about denying the hard things, it's about bringing things to the surface. 

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When you think about harmony, I always think of the metaphor of an orchestra or a band, where every part needs to be able to use its voice in the appropriate way. It needs to be able to be played in harmony with the other instruments.

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But if the drums stop drumming, or the flutes stop fluting, or the trumpets stop trumpeting, you don't actually have the full picture of what you could have. At the same time, if everybody is just yelling, and yammering, and playing, you have discord.

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So harmony is hard work is what I'm getting at. Harmony isn't just, "We're going to all just sit here and pretend like everything's fine." 

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From Family Systems Theory, the goal of a healthy family is harmony. But what people don't understand is that harmony is like that orchestra. It's making sure each one of those parts is playing its role, and has its appropriate voice within the family. 

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Rowena: I benefited hugely from being one of the last of so many kids and really looked up to my older siblings. And there's such a profound love that we all share for each other. 

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But I think just in being one of the last ones and having so many of us. I spent maybe some of the time just doing a lot of observing of what other people were saying and feeling like, "Well I'm younger, who am I to know what I'm talking about here?"

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I think it's only natural that if you're one of the younger kids and you've got lots of older ones, that you will defer to other people's opinions and defer your voice. And, so, a lot of it is reclaiming, "Well, what do I think? What do I feel and what do I think?"

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Alison: Yes.

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Rowena: And taking other people's voices into account, but not so much that I'm not listening to my own, also.

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Alison: It makes sense that you would get lost in the shuffle a little bit. I mean, you're a mother of four now and you see, I'm sure, how hard it is to make sure each one of your children is getting that attunement, it's hard. I can't imagine doing it for nine people, I mean, I can't imagine. 

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Rowena: Yes.

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Alison: It's hard for me with two.

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Rowena: Right and the person on their own has all their many parts. And, so, you won't just have four kids, you have all the parts within each child.

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Alison: Yes. 

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Rowena: And then you have all the ways that those are interacting with the parts of the other kids. And you just have so much happening and it's wild, and messy, and beautiful, all at the same time.

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Alison: When did you begin to become aware that for you staying quiet, not using your voice, was a conditioned response. And that it wasn't necessarily the only way, and that maybe it was important to speak up?

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Rowena: Yes, so I have really valued peace and harmony in my life and want to create, protect that. I don't want my body to feel so much discomfort that I'm outside my window of tolerance, and that I can be assertive in many moments. 

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But I think in moments when I fear that my very voice is the thing that is going to elicit anger. Then this is where the peacekeeping part goes into overdrive. And, so, I've been on a huge journey, recently the past year especially. 

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Our family was involved in a faith community for many years and there are lots of dear people, and memories, and things that we loved and enjoyed about being a part of it. And, yet, there was a growing feeling that something was not right and our bodies began to feel at first, and our minds kept trying to override the signals and say, "Everything is fine, just keep the peace, have grace."

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And, yet, our bodies just kept getting more and more uncomfortable and the signals kept getting stronger to the point where we couldn't really ignore it. And, so, we had no choice but to become curious about what we were feeling. 

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And, so, I realized my body was saying, in some ways, "I don't feel like I have a voice here. I feel a bit stuck. I feel trapped, I feel powerless. I don't feel like I'm flourishing. This doesn't really feel like the way that it should be at church." And I was also getting ready to birth our fourth child. So I was going through these two kind of labors simultaneously, it was a really stressful time. 

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And, so, my husband and I just started to gather puzzle pieces and realized in dysfunctional families, there's one person's emotional needs that are at the center. And this is the person who has the highest need for constant attention and praise, and you can feed into that all day long. 

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And then anyone who wakes up to that reality and stops pouring into the center, and maybe tries to, gently, bring some awareness, there's blame shifting that occurs. And the problem is deflected onto the people who are trying to say something, and then you become scapegoated. So it's a very challenging dynamic, to say the least. 

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So I would say that there was an incongruence that we witnessed between what the authority figure was presenting publicly, and the lived experience that we had behind the scenes that didn't match. Jesus says it like, "You wash the outside of the cup but you're ignoring the inside." 

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And that's what we were seeing and experiencing. There's this carefully curated and crafted image and, yet, we're not really seeing the love and the abundant life modeled. 

And we also saw that there was an ongoing pattern of leaders, who had gotten close proximity, being deeply wounded and leaving, and then we became one of them. And, so, the incongruence was profoundly disorienting. And your article on the empathy trap was really powerful for us. In understanding that loyalty and empathy can't run the show alone, and that we also need courage. 

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And, so, loyalty and submission, and deference to religious leaders and authorities should not be given automatically, simply, because of their position and training. We need to be looking at the character and the fruit in people's lives, and not just their words.

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And, so, the essence of Jesus's loving others well. And, so, love should be the primary measurement for how well things are going. Basically, we realized we all have wounds and we need to tend to our own, and take responsibility for them. But if we don't they're going to be infected and they're going to leave a legacy of harm.

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So we decided that we wanted to say yes to something else. We wanted to say yes to a community where we felt like our voices would be heard. Where we could bring gentle correction from time to time, if even though we're not the type of people who are constantly criticizing. 

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But if we don't have any space to bring ourselves, then we were feeling very stifled. And, so, we had to do the very thing that terrified me, using my voice, knowing that it would elicit anger. And that was very scary for my body, my nervous system.

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Alison: Thank you for sharing. I know how hard this is. I think so many people can understand what you're describing. And I love how you said it in the context, again, this family system, church is a family and when somebody, especially somebody in authority, someone in power, so in a family, it's a parent.

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In a church it's somebody in leadership, a pastor, somebody in leadership is sucking all of the energy toward themselves. This is the powering-over P, they're controlling the narrative. They're controlling and silencing others as a result. 

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So you combine that with your own, "I don't speak up, I am a peacekeeper." And, oh, that is hard. And, yet, I think of the Proverbs, listening to you,  that says, "A gentle word breaks bone." 

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It's the gentleness of, "I don't want to be the one to do this, but I cannot not see what I'm seeing." And, so, I just want to name those things. This was for you, there was no interest or your husband, I mean, I know him, too, just gentle people all the way through.

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we're witnessing this dynamic that is not healthy for us, not healthy for the community, and we've got to be the ones to use our voices here. And, as you just said, sometimes, you use your voice and it's like, "Oh, this is great."

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People are like, "Oh, we're so glad, thank you. It was so great to hear from you, thanks for sharing." It was not going to be that. It was not going to be that.

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Rowena: No it was not.

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Alison: It was going to be the thing you feared and you knew it. It was going to be, "We don't want your voice here, this is going to create discord." You knew that, so it was the very thing you feared the most, and I just, again, that word courage. 

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That word courage to speak up just really speaks. 

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Rowena: Yes, and we know that everyone has a true self. 

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Alison: Yes.

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Rowena: Ye, we really believe that. But we can all get lost from our poor true self that God has given us, and wander away and be just caught in a lot of self-deception about who we really are. And, so, it requires a lot of awareness of what are these protective parts of us that are so overactive, that are hiding something within us because of wounds. 

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And we all have the responsibility to travel within and figure out what those wounds are, and name them, and bring back the puzzle pieces within ourselves, and experience healing. But if we're not, and we're not willing to listen when people are saying, "Hey, I think you're going off track here." It's scary.

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Alison: Yes, it is. It's that self-awareness. And I love what you're saying, again, this list of seven Ps, none of them in and of themselves are a problem if we are aware of them, even that powering over one. Even that one where that's the person that's taking control of the narrative, and trying to be in charge, and make sure they're the ones, no one else has a voice. 

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Well, that awareness of, "I am someone that can do that. I am someone that can bully others. I am someone that can be that." You can imagine raising a kid like that and it's like, "How do you?" It's that self-awareness. 

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This is cliché, but you think about it a little bit sometimes in Enneagram terms, we need to do a whole episode on the Enneagram. But there's a type, the Enneagram Eight that is the power. They want the power.

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Rowena: Mh-hmm.

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Alison: We need powerful leaders. We need people who step up into the spotlight. That is not in and of itself a bad thing. 

But if there's not the self-awareness of the dark side of that, just as with any of these, it can get really toxic. 

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Break

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Rowena: I've had to reclaim my understanding of power and authority and get more comfortable with those terms, and not see those as all bad. Like not seeing anger as all bad, not seeing power as all bad, and reclaiming the good parts of those. Those are good things when they're used well.

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And, so, that has been healing in and of itself, to not view power as bad or anger as bad. So, yes, in terms of how we began to grow and change in, bravely, speaking up. I was surprised at the journey that it would take me on inwardly and learning more about my own wounds, and my own self. And, basically, it set a fire to all these old habits and ways of being because I was using my voice knowing that it would elicit anger.

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And, so, that set a fire to unhealthy ways of relating to others, in a good way, but in a very challenging and deeply uncomfortable way. So I didn't know that the Fawn response was a thing. And it has been eye-opening to discover that that is a response of the body, basically, it's a peacekeeping response. 

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You're trying to keep the peace and just manage the situation, by not eliciting people's anger and not being disruptive. And those are things that my type Seven body does not want to do. I want to experience joy.

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And, so, it has been basically setting a fire to that Fawn response to fearing anger. And also realizing the disconnect between my mind and my body, and realizing, "Oh, I have been just stuck in my head for a lot of my life and my body has so much wisdom to share with me."

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And in the past I think I would view anxiety, or anger, or rage, or disgust, all of those things, or fear and try to just get them far away from me. And now I feel like I've alkalinized those emotions so much more, and I can pay attention to my body and understand that it is trying to tell me something. And if I can just get curious about it and listen that there are things that my body is trying to tell me to help me. 

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And, so, anxiety doesn't need to be something that I fear anymore. And anger doesn't be need to be something that I fear and these can be really powerful things if I can get curious about them. And I think this is part of why Internal Family Systems has been such a powerful tool is because it helps distance yourself from these parts of you. Because when they take over it feels like it's all of you.

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And you feel like, "Well, I'm just drowning in anger or drowning in anxiety." And really when you can realize, "Oh, this is one part of me." Then you can step back from it and differentiate from it a bit more, and that has been such a helpful tool. Peace, and harmony, and avoiding pain cannot be my primary guiding values. 

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Alison: Mh-hmm.

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Rowena: And if they are then it's creating a false peace and harmony. And, so, having peace and harmony are good things, but they need to be also in tandem with courage and listening to angry parts of ourselves, and anxious parts of ourselves, and fearful parts of ourselves. 

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And not just trying to sweep them under the rug or put them in a jail within us and say, "You can't come out it's not safe." And, so, I've really been learning to bless those parts of myself and say, "Oh, anger is, and you've got good things to tell me and I thought you were all bad."

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And, so, I had this moment where I felt like all my other parts were able to welcome anger back in. And be like, "We see you, we value you. You actually put us in that situation." And now I know, especially, from the work that you say, that phrase, "We speak on behalf of our anger not from it." 

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And that has been the distinction that I've been trying to find for so long. I think journaling about anger has been a common theme for eight years of parenting. Because I've been like, "God, please show me how to be angry." This is what kids do, they know how to press your triggers and it's not their fault. That is a window into something within ourselves. Like, "Why is this a trigger for me?"

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And, so, yes, I've been on that journey for so long and so I feel like I've had some breakthrough moments. Where I've been able to recognize anger as good and I can bless it and honor it, and I can steer it in a way that I'm not so afraid of it. That it's going to be destructive or take me over or hurt other people.

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Alison: It's like a paradox. So the peacekeeper parts of us think anger is the enemy. Avoid it at all costs because anger is conflict, anger is discord, anger is all the things that peacekeeping parts of us just cannot stand. 

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And what I'm hearing you say, the paradox is, as you've made peace with your own anger, and even welcomed, and allowed anger a seat at the table, there is more peace. More actual peace because we don't want to make peace. 

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You gave a great list of things, at the beginning about, of all the things we should be angry about. We don't want to make peace with certain things. We don't want to make peace with these terrible things, atrocities, that are going on in our world. We don't want to make peace with toxic leadership. We don't want to make peace.

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And, so, we have to make peace with our own anger, which is our cue that something is awry. And it does turn this idea of what is peace" And even thinking about Jesus, "I'm the prince of peace." 

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And then you think about, "Yes." And if we look at the whole life of Jesus there were some really hard things in it, and there was anger in it, and there was even some harsh words for folks in it, and He didn't shy away from conflict at all. And, yet, He was-

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Rowena: "A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." And He experienced anger. The shortest famous verse in the Bible, "Jesus wept." He experienced intense grief. He had a panic attack in the Garden of Gethsemane, and experienced intense anxiety like we have never experienced. 

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And, so, Jesus shows us that He felt the full range of human emotion, and I'm really thankful for that. And I find that the Psalms have been a powerful way of connecting emotions and bringing them to God. And the Psalms are a way that God is just always trying to reveal to us, that He keeps us safe, seen, soothed, and secure.

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Alison: Yes, even when the circumstances of our life require us to enter into discomfort, that's the paradox.

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Rowena: Yes.

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Alison: That internally we can experience that experience of being seen, soothed, safe, and secure even when we have to walk into a really hard situation that challenges us. What I love about what you're doing here, Rowena, is the event was, "I've got to speak up about something I'm seeing. It's really hard, I don't like it."

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But then you immediately got yourself into a safer situation. 

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You got yourself to where you needed to be, and then, all of a sudden, guess what happens, you are the one that's growing. That's what these things do, these invitations to courage. And I just love how you're describing this process of really having to examine a lot of ways, that you've showed up in the world. So tell me a little bit more about some of those breakthrough moments.

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Rowena: Yes, so one of the quotes that I love of Parker Palmers. He says that, "The soul is like a wild animal—tough, resilient, savvy, self-sufficient and yet exceedingly shy. If we want to see a wild animal, the last thing we should do is to go crashing through the woods, shouting for the creature to come out. But if we are willing to walk quietly into the woods and sit silently for an hour or two at the base of a tree, the creature we are waiting for may well emerge, and out of the corner of an eye we will catch a glimpse of the precious wildness we seek."

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And, so, I think this is the nature of human beings, are the nature is that we want to hide. And we often think that God is the one hiding and we are the ones trying to find Him, when all along it's we are hiding and He's out there in the open. 

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And I think Henri Nouwen is the one who says that beautifully in a quote, I'm just paraphrasing it. And, so, it was sort of doing that very thing of sitting quietly in the woods, with the wild animal that my soul is, and waiting for it to reveal parts of itself that were wanting to be seen, and wanting to hide all at the same time. 

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Alison: Mm-hmm. 

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Rowena: And I think of Sue Monk Kidd, in her book When the Heart Waits, and she says, "Crisis can be holy beginnings, a coming alive." So we get to take these inward journeys where we have these holy beginnings. 

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And we can travel inward and discover what are the places within us that are wanting to hide and why? And how can we draw them out, and experience greater healing, and have well-ordered souls, and we can be fully alive. It's such a travesty to live in this world and be hiding and feel like you're not fully alive. 

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And, so, while I don't have the power to change outer circumstances, that's not within my realm of responsibility. I have been surprised at how much ownership of things within me that I have needed to take. 

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And that healing can come by gathering exiled parts of myself that have been scattered and bringing them back together. And it's this mysterious journey where God is at work and we are participating in the process somehow. And it's slow, very slow, and it is deep and lasting. 

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And, so, one of my big breakthrough moments was when we were watching this episode of Blue Planet with the kids, and there was a section on these crabs. And they are usually solitary creatures who gather together by the hundreds of thousands. 

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And they don't gather together to reproduce or to feed, they gather together to molt. And it's because they've become too big for the exoskeletons that they're in, and they need to climb out of those shells, and they're super vulnerable. They're soft, their limbs are all wonky, they can't move. So they're extremely vulnerable to the predators. So they gather together to protect each other in these large numbers. 

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And as I'm watching this with our kids, I'm really moved by it and I'm like, "Wow." I feel like that is what has been happening to me. I have been on this journey of climbing out of my own crab shell and expanding and leaving these old exoskeletons behind. And just dying to old ways of being, and birthing new ways of relating to people, and being able to use my voice instead of keeping it silent, and small, and using the fawn response.

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And I've really loved reading so many of Sue Monk Kidd books. And a lot of the themes in her novels are of women bending the ear to the longing in their soul and using their voice. And one of them has this beautiful prayer that's like "Bless the largeness that is within me." 

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And that prayer really stood out to me, and I think it probably does for every woman and every everybody. That goes in hand in hand with this idea of us expanding and needing to come out of these exoskeletons that we're in, and to leave them behind. 

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It's awkward for a time and it's uncomfortable, but then we slowly can build new ways of being and we probably undergo so many. 

Or if we're paying attention, we can undergo lots of these molts in the course of our lifetime. And that is how we can grow closer and closer to God and to who He has made us to be.

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Alison: That's beautiful. That metaphor you had sent me of the crab shells was just so powerful. Because it is these protectors, even these peacemaking protectors, that can feel like they're good Christian parts of us. They're still protecting us. They still are that hard shell.

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And, so, when we come out of them and that vulnerability of being seen, of using our voices, it is that it captures that tenderness of that. And, yet, it is part of that process of leaving behind the old and moving into new ways of being truly safe. 

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Which isn't denying the hard things or keeping the hard things; "Just keep calm, carry on." It's actually coming out and acknowledging the dangers, and being aware of the landmines, and also knowing how to resource ourselves, get ourselves what we need.

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Rowena: So other breakthrough moments occurred a lot while reading this Anglican Devotional, that I've been going through for a couple of years called Seeking God's Face. And it's just a beautiful way that it lays out short passages of Scripture. 

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And this one, in particular, was very meaningful to me from Psalm 18. And it said, "In my distress, I called out to the Lord. I cried to my God for help from his temple, he heard my voice. My cry came before him into his ears. He reached down from on high and took hold of me. He drew me out of deep waters." 

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And I could probably quote so many of the psalms that have been powerful, but that has been particularly meaningful to really believe and know that God hears my voice, and that He wants it to come out of hiding.

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And then I was listening to the Messiah, the other day, and there's this one stanza that was really sticking out to me also. It was like my ears perked up and it's basically saying, "Get thee up into a high mountain. Lift up thy voice with strength, lift it up, be not afraid." And it's just amazing when things hit you in the way that you exactly need to hear it. 

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And, so, yes, just by coming on this podcast I feel like I'm practicing this. I'm practicing lifting up my voice with strength and being not afraid. And it feels really good to have all of these puzzle pieces come together and feel like, "Oh, I am coming out of hiding and I'm coming out of my crab shell."

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Alison: I just, I want to sit there, for a second, and play that clip for all of you who are listening right now that just needed to hear that. "Lift up your voice. Lift up your voice before the Lord." And we need your voice. I have been blessed by your voice, Rowena, which is why I wanted you to come on here because I know what a blessing your voice is. So thank you for that word. 

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I am so grateful for just the encouragement, to me and to so many. I want to ask you being a mom of four, how do you notice this peacekeeping part helps you? How do you need to set gentle boundaries with it sometimes? How does this come into your parenting?

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Rowena: Yes, so this is what's also been really redemptive in it and healing, is that instead of seeing this peacekeeping part as all bad. I can recognize and bless the parts of it that have been good, and that is trying to help me, and I can assign it new, more productive roles for me. 

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So I think the peacekeeping part of me has kept such a tight guard on my voice because it knows that there is value in what I have to say. And my mind may not have always known that. But this protective part is trying to protect something because there is something of value in there. 

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And, so, I think that has been an important realization, and I don't want it to be on overdrive. But I want to bless an honor that it wants to keep me safe. It's the part of me that wants to help me think before I speak.

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Alison: What you're saying is so interesting. I've never thought about it that way., but it's actually protecting a treasure. 

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Rowena: Yes.

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Alison: So it's not it's not trying to keep you silenced. It's actually almost saying, "Your voice is powerful, therefore, we have to be careful with it." That's fascinating.

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Rowena: Yes, and then because I have feared power then it has made me. I don't know, "Can I trust myself to use my voice in good ways." The tongue is a fire and it can be very destructive. But, also, our voice can be so tightly guarded, like a jailkeeper is in front of it. And, so, I'm trying to give this peacekeeping part of me a new role, that it is the guardian of my voice and the gatekeeper in a wise, shrewd way. 

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And, so, it helps me think before I speak. It helps me discern if it is wise to speak or if boundaries need to be set with action instead. So it's like bringing that piece of the orchestra into harmony again. 

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And saying, "You have a valuable role to play here and we've got to change the music that you're playing. But we're going to give you this new music, and it's going to be much more beautiful. If you can take up this really helpful, protective role."

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And if my core self can lead with all those beautiful see words of IFS, like courage, curiosity, compassion, confidence, creativity, clarity, calm, and connectedness. If my true self can lead this peacekeeping part of me in that way, then I think that's where the real power is going to be led by the Holy Spirit. 

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And, so, yes, I'm trying to break free from the shackles of other people's anger, and uncomfortability, and not actively trying to elicit it, but using my voice when it's necessary.

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Alison: Yes, and one of the things you touch on is when folks have a very strong bend toward peacekeeping. What can happen is when we do use our voices that we have to get so far down the anger spectrum that it does come out. It can, right?

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Rowena: Yes.

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Alison: It can come out angrily. It can come out because we've suppressed and then it gushes out. And, so, with those of you who see yourself as peacekeepers, it's that learning that nuanced voice of anger that you talked about earlier. Speaking on behalf of, "Man, I am feeling." 

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And if we don't name that, and if we don't give ourselves permission to feel that, and speak on behalf of that anger it will come out too big. Because we flip into fight mode once we are just done. And especially when we're with our safe people, which often are our kids and our families. Because we know they're not going to leave us, and that's just human. 

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And, so, I mean, that's just a visceral, that's primal, that's not a conscious choice. It's just, "Well, if I lose it here, I know that..." And, so, learning, again, taking it back to that theme of what you've been saying. We have to make peace with anger, make peace with the things that we're feeling. So that we can speak on behalf of those from that calm place inside versus that activated place inside. 

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Rowena: Yes, and I also want to speak to the double bind that culture puts women into. Of, "If you use your voice, then you know you're either too sensitive or you're too assertive." And, so, then, I feel like I've experienced that. And so it's left me with like, "Well, how do I use my voice then." Because I don't like being blamed of either perspective of being overly sensitive or overly assertive. 

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And, so, it's breaking free from that double bind, and owning my voice, and knowing what it is saying deep in my gut. And then once the blockages are gone it can freely wind its way out of my gut, where I know that it lives, and through my lips, and from my tongue and into the world. 

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And, so, it's that reconnecting with my body, too, that is part of it. Actively feeling, "Okay, I feel like my voice lives in my gut, and it wants to come out of my lips." Sort of reconnecting all of these parts inwardly, and the mind to the body has been really powerful for me.

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Alison: That's beautiful, Rowena. That's just beautiful. I've been privy to a lot of this journey, as your friend, and just to hear you articulate it, it's just so powerful and so beautiful. I want to ask you, what would you say to that young, little girl, eighth of nine children. Just in light of everything you've been learning, especially, these last few years. What would you want to say to her now?

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Rowena: I think I would say, "You are not responsible for other people's anger." And I would break that connection between the use of the voice and anger. And I would say, "Allow room for your own anger. Don't silence it and be curious about it and don't let it come up sideways, either but speak on behalf of it."

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I would say, "Trust your voice and stay connected to your body." Those would be the main things that I do tell my younger self.

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Alison: And what would you say to other women, who are listening right now, who struggle with using their voice?

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Rowena: Yes, I would say get curious about what blockages are in the way. Because once you can remove the blockages, then it can flow again and it can come out. And, so, I get curious about what are these protective parts trying to.

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In what ways are being overly protective and why, and then take that journey inward to listen to all of your parts. And do this with support and befriend painful emotions like anger, and fear, and anxiety, all those things. And realize that your body is trying to send you good messages if you would get curious and have compassion for yourself as you do it. 

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And then honor and bless those parts of you and realize the ways that they are trying to help and to not see them as all bad, and that that can really set free a lot of things. And then I would I would say, "Once you go through all that work, lift up your voice with strength. Lift it up and be not afraid."

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Alison: That's beautiful. Rowena, thank you so much. As I close every episode, I ask all of my guests, what or who is bringing out the best of you right now?

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Rowena: So I think that I would have to go through all four of my kids, just briefly. But our one-year-old, I think we have so much to learn from babies. We just think that we need to teach them so many things, but they have so much to teach us. And, so, our one-year-old is just such a joy and delight, and he contributes zero productivity to our household. But we just delight because he exists.

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Alison: That's awesome.

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Rowena: And, so, I feel like God is always reminding me of that. Like, "This is how I see you. You are a delight just by existing, just by being, and I don't expect you to produce and perform, do all these things. Babies are uninhibited from all of these ways of being that we've adopted as older people. 

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And, so, they're just beautiful to witness the presence that they have, and the joy. Our one-year-old, right now, is going through all of these language acquisition. And, so, he's just babbling and he's so uninhibited with his voice that it's just really beautiful, it's inspiring to me.

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Alison: That's great.

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Rowena: Like you don't care that you're just saying, "Higgledy, gibody." words right now and, so, I love that.

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And then our three-year-old, I feel like this is really holy ground because he really knows how to let his anger flow. And, so, he's been teaching me a lot, and he'll just be able to name like, "I'm so angry." And I'm just like, "Wow, you just know how to name it."

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It just feels like a very tender spot where I'm really trying to be a wise parent and not shut it down. But try to help him have healthy outlet for it, and it is very challenging, too. But I think this inner work that I'm doing in myself, hopefully, is going to translate to that over time. 

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It feels like I'm that wobbly crab at the moment with that. But I'm hopeful that I can nourish his anger in healthy ways, if that makes sense. And then our six-year-old is just so curious and always inspires me with just his curiosity about the world and his playfulness. 

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And then our eight-year-old daughter, right now seems to really lack this peacekeeping to please and fawn part. So I've just been like, "Oh, cool." Trying to bless that part of her that is really strong, and speaks her mind, and also she has a huge laugh, and it's super silly. And, so, she just brings a lot of hilarity to our household. 

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And then I have to say for my husband, too, he is just such a safe person and accepts all big emotions. And I can say to him like, "I felt angry when you did such and such." And he can listen and not be defensive, and we can have regular rupture and repair cycles. And there's just a lot of mutual trust and respect with him, and I just am really thankful for who he is.

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Alison: I love it. I love how you flipped that to what you are learning from each of your kids. That's beautiful perspective there, that the things that could also drive us crazy, about our kids, are the very things that we probably need to learn, and I think that's just incredible perspective. What needs and desires are you working to protect?

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Rowena: So I think beauty is something that I am working to protect. Whether it's creating pottery, or listening to beautiful music, or singing and dancing in my kitchen, just noticing. I've had to, because there's been so much happening inwardly, I've really been needing to look at open space. 

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And, so, I've just found myself being so much more attentive to what the sky is each day and noticing the clouds, and really looking at it because it's just like the open space. I can't get to the ocean as much as I would like, so the sky is an incredible open, vast, expanse that really helps settle my nervous system, too. 

‍

And then reading, I just have been really interested in reading lots of different books. And that has been just something that I want to hear other people's perspectives, and take them in, and just turn things over, and think through things. 

‍

And, so, John and I went on a date last night and we heard this song playing in the restaurant that was from our high school days. And it was a Natasha Bedingfield song, the song Unwritten and the words were so [Inaudible 00:56:40] to me. It was like my ears perked up. 

‍

So she has these words that are; 

‍

"Release your inhibitions

Feel the rain on your skin

No one else can feel it for you

Only you can let it in

No one else, no one else

Can speak the words on your lips

Drench yourself in words unspoken

Live your life with arms wide open

Today is where your book begins

The rest is still unwritten"

‍

Alison: Beautiful.

‍

Rowena: And I hadn't heard that song in decades and it just came back. And, so, the next morning, I'm driving our kids to school, we've got six car seats in the back and I'm blasting this song, and singing and dancing in the car. I get to this red light, and I look over and there's this bus stop filled with people, and this one guy is just looking at me and laughing. And, so instead of breaking eye contact, I just kept looking at him, and I kept singing and dancing, and he started to move too.

‍

Alison: That's amazing, I love it.

‍

Rowena: It was so funny, it just really made my day.

‍

Alison: I love it, that is a perfect image. I just am so grateful for you. Thank you so much for your time today, just for all of your wisdom, and your nuggets. And I just couldn't be more grateful for all that you had to share with us today, thanks for being here. 

‍

Rowena: Yes, thank you, Alison. You've been such an important part of my journey.

Today's episode of The Best of You Podcast is in honor of the Thanksgiving holiday, and the holiday season in general. If you're dealing with a mixture of emotions today, this episode is for you. Holidays are complicated, and in today's episode, I walk you through how to honor what's hard, even as you give thanks for what's good.

‍

We'll discuss:

1. Why it's normal for mixed emotions to show up on a holiday

2. How old ways of managing kick in-and leave us exhausted

3. How to take brave steps to honor vs. manage hard emotions

4. The myth of the perfect family, the perfect holiday, or the perfect experience of gratitude

5. What we can learn from 5 characters in my favorite children's book

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

• Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp -Go to www.betterhelp.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 10% off your first month!

Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

‍

Resources

• Ramona Quimby, Age 8, by Beverly Cleary
• Parables as Stories
• The Best of You: Break Free From Painful Patterns, Mend Your Past, And Discover Your True Self in God, by Alison Cook
• Boundaries for Your Soul, by Alison Cook
• Resources for support

‍

Transcript

‍

Alison: Hey everyone. Happy Thanksgiving and welcome to this special episode of The Best of You Podcast in honor of the Thanksgiving holiday and really the entire holiday season. I've thought about this episode for a while, and I really wanted to speak directly to you today because I think holidays bring up such a myriad of emotions. 

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Holidays are complicated, and I wanted to address all that you might be experiencing on this day. I also wanted to tell a story, a bit of a parable. It's not my story, it's written by another author, but it's a story that illustrates some of the hard, some of the good, some of the messy, and some of the grace of a day like today. Jesus told stories to illustrate the points that He wanted to make. He told stories to illustrate deeper truths. 

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And, so, today I'm going to share a story with you. It's not from the Bible. It's one of my favorites from childhood, and I appreciate your indulging me as I think about what stories have meant something to me on a day like Thanksgiving. 

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But before we get there, just some thoughts for all of you who are listening. Not just today on Thanksgiving, but all of you who are anticipating the holidays with a mixture of emotions. Parts of us get excited this time of year, parts of us get excited about the holidays. 

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It might mean time off work. It might mean spending time with people you love that you don't get to see very often. We want to feel the joy that a day like Thanksgiving symbolizes. 

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It symbolizes the hope of a happy family gathering, of a celebration, of the many blessings we've received. It symbolizes this idea of contentment, gratitude, and joy as we pause to recognize and celebrate the good things God has given us. The good things that are in our lives. 

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And it's important to do this. It's a beautiful, hopeful, day that encourages us to pause and pay attention. To notice. But here's the problem, as we pause to notice the good things, on a day like today, we often also notice what's hard. It's just the way we are designed. With every joy that we recognize, there's almost always a sorrow. 

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And if you're feeling a mixture of emotions on a day like today, I just want you to know you're not alone. In fact, you're incredibly normal. So there are several ways that a day like Thanksgiving can take us off track. Cannot be that day we imagined or hoped it would be in our mind. 

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First of all, it can end up being a day of stress, if we're not careful. The day can end up being a flurry of activity. As we move into those perfecting, pleasing, performing, producing modes we've been talking about in this series. 

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Those parts of us that try to get all the things together that tense our bodies. Trying to make everything perfect, everybody happy, everything beautiful, and we haven't even gotten to the mayhem that can be Christmas. Thanksgiving can end up being a day where there is a lot of stress. As we work over time to put the day together.

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Sometimes we end up at the end of the day exhausted and spent, and not really feeling all that joy and gratitude that we had hoped to experience. For many of us, another reason the day can be hard, is that for many of us pausing to notice the gratitude also means noticing hard emotions.

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For example, some of you have had to think, really hard, about, "Who do I spend this day with?" 

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Maybe your family lives far away and you can't get to them. 

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Maybe your family is complicated and spending a lot of time with them is hard for you. 

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Maybe you're estranged from a family member, maybe even your own parent or your own child. 

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Maybe this day brings up memories of a beloved friend or family member, who is no longer with us. The day is complicated. 

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I don't know anyone who doesn't experience a myriad of emotions, when we arrive at this morning of Thanksgiving. Gratitude is complicated. It's not the absence of what's hard. It's not the absence of grief. It's not the absence of grit of the reality that, sometimes, we're just getting by. 

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And, so, I want to honor that complexity in this episode today. I want to honor the different emotions you might be feeling. The emotions that you might not be able to name at your Thanksgiving table later today. 

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There might be some anxiety or worry that is present with you. There might be sadness, grief, longing. There might be some loneliness. You might be alone today. You might be struggling financially and can't afford the type of meal or celebration you wish you could provide. You might be sitting at a table full of people, and still feeling unseen or invisible. 

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You might be sitting at a table, where the absence of someone you love or someone you've had to move away from brings up painful memories for you. You might be working so hard today, for everybody else, that by the end of the day you're exhausted and even a touch resentful. 

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All of these emotions are welcome, and I don't want you to sideline any one of them. Instead, I want you to pause, right now, as you're listening, wherever you are, and notice each of these emotions. Whichever ones are present for you, and give thanks for every single one of them. 

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I know that sounds crazy but I mean it. On this day of Thanksgiving, I want you to give thanks even for those hard emotions. They're there for a reason. And as you notice even the hard emotions and give thanks for them. 

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I want you to check in with yourself and notice; "How can I care for myself in this specific feeling I'm having?" This is how we move into authentic gratitude, and it's how we move toward authentic connection. 

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Instead of sidelining what we really feel in order to manage the perceptions of other people. We start to pay attention to these emotions. We start to give thanks for them, and we start to get more connected. 

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As you give thanks for these emotions you are feeling, invite God to be present there with you. Let Him know that you see the angst, the worry, the fear, or the sadness, and guess what God sees how you feel too. You're no longer alone with those feelings. 

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And then turn your attention toward how you will be tempted to manage throughout this day. How will a part of you try to please others? 

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How will a part of you work to keep the peace? 

How will your inner perfectionist step in and try to take over? 

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How will you try to cover over some of this pain? 

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For those of you who are peacekeepers. Your body may go tense as you anticipate all of the ways conflict will surface, and work overtime, trying to make sure to ward off any possibility of it.

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You'll work to direct conversation, redirect conversation, explain away somebody's inappropriate comment. You'll work to protect your sister from your parents. Your father from your mother. Your mother from your father. You'll revert back into that younger version of you that didn't know any other way. 

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For those of you who perform, or please, or produce, you may be tempted to work overtime to make sure everyone else is happy. Inside you may be tired, but you'll ignore that. You'll shove it aside, and by the end of the day you'll feel completely out of gas and running on empty. 

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For those of you who are grieving, you don't know what to do. Grief can be so painful to face, especially, at the holidays when you feel like you shouldn't feel that way. Holidays are complicated, and I want you to give yourself permission in this moment. You do not have to hide your pain. Hide what's hard to go through the motions. 

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Again, pause, take a minute, and give thanks for these parts of you that have worked so hard in the past to manage these hard emotions. And then ask yourself, what if it's not my job, primarily, to take care of everybody else today? 

‍

What if it's also my job, just as importantly, to take good care of myself? 

‍

What is the anxious, worried, sad, grieving, lonely, or weary part of me need on this day? 

‍

Take a moment and connect to that feeling inside. Imagine an inner table, an inner Thanksgiving gathering inside your own soul. And what if you could create a space for that hard feeling on this day? And what if God wants to be with you there too? 

‍

What is something you can do for yourself on this day, to honor this feeling? 

‍

You don't have to let your sadness, your worry, or your loneliness take you over. But as you notice what you feel and name it, you can care for yourself in a specific, special, only-you-can-quite-know-exactly-how way. 

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Maybe it's music, maybe it's nature, maybe it's movement. Maybe it's telling a friend that you are struggling. But as you honor what you feel and create a place for all those different emotions. You, paradoxically, also set gentle boundaries with them. You show up with more capacity. You show up more authentically. You show up holding what's hard and holding the gratitude, one in each of your hands. 

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Holidays are messy. Family is messy. And when I think about the holidays like today, I think about that old sage, Ramona Quimby. Brought to life by the wonderful author, Beverly Cleary. 

‍

I loved these books when I was a kid. I devoured them, read every single one multiple times, all the time. And as an adult, several moments from those books have stayed with me. 

‍

There's something Beverly Cleary did in capturing some of the angst, even the depression, even the melancholy. Even the fear of being a kid, and she brought to life these feelings. 

In ways that made them safe for so many of us to feel, in an era when we didn't really talk about those feelings.

‍

And, so, those books became a place for me to honor those feelings all of us have. That many of us didn't have a place to bring to our family gathering. And while so much of what you might be feeling, on this day, relates to your present circumstances. 

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The way that you cope with those feelings, often, goes all the way back to the way you learned to cope as a child. The way you learned to stuff, or to numb, or to speak out too, harshly, or to set your own feelings aside. 

‍

And, so, for you, today, I offer you this parable, this story. These characters that are so beloved, so well-known, that are playful and light. But also represent some of the ways we can feel on this day. And some of the ways we might hold both what's hard and what's good, together, side by side. 

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***

All right, so if you're not familiar with the Quimby Family, brought to Life by the amazing Beverly Cleary. In a series of books that focus on Ramona. I want to give you an overview of some of the key characters. As you listen, think about who you resonate with or who you relate to in this story. 

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There's Mrs. Quimby, who is the stalwart holding the family together. The family struggles financially. She's got a job. She's always worried about money. She's always trying to keep the girls together. 

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She can be a little bit stern, and she's focused on getting things done. Keeping everybody together, getting the rooms clean, getting the chores done. She loves her family, but she's definitely, sort of, that stalwart, trying to keep the train moving. 

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Then there's Mr. Quimby who is loving and kind. He's also a little anxious, again, that's my 2022 read on his character. He doesn't like his job, initially, as a grocery store checkout clerk. So he leaves it to go back to school. He later gets a different job, which he then gets laid off. 

‍

There's a lot of angst around Mr. Quimby. He even takes up smoking at one point, in one book, and Ramona's really worried about him and always trying to get him to stop smoking. There's the melancholy, sort of, angst around this character of Mr. Quimby, and he's also kind and loves his family. 

‍

Then there's the older sister Beezus, and Beezus we see through the eyes of Ramona, is a little bit self-absorbed. She is, sometimes, cranky. She loves her family, but would really rather be with her friends or at her own party than with the family oftentimes, and then there's Ramona. 

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Ramona is honest to a fault. She gets herself in trouble. She's curious. She's calls a spade a spade. She speaks out the truth that she sees. She's often reforming others, she's curious. She's lively, she's playful, she's lovable, and she can often get herself in trouble. 

‍

So in this particular story, it's from a chapter in the book called Ramona Quimby, age eight, and the chapter is called Rainy Sunday. And this scene, this story, just lives in my memory. It just like, literally, I can recreate it in my mind to this day. And I thought about that because I always say there's a reason we remember. Our memories are powerful. 

‍

And, so, there's something about this story that captured my memory when I was young. So I went back and reread it, and revisited it. And here's what's happening, and I think it's in part because it captures both the melancholy, the hard, these different ways we manage through a day. 

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The different ways we're managing other people, and what's beautiful, and good, and grace-filled about any family. About any collection of people, it doesn't even have to be a family. Because in this case, a stranger comes in to the story. 

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So I think that's what captured me. Is that it gave us space for there to be both hard, melancholy, struggles, and beauty. Glimpses of joy, glimpses of good in any given day. 

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On this particular day, Ramona and her family are not getting along. Again, it's rainy, it's miserable, it's melancholy. You feel the just angstness of the day in the house. 

‍

Mrs. Quimby is barking out orders, trying to get the girls to do their chores, and Mr. Quimby is checked out. Beezus is cranky and mad that she's not allowed to go to her friend's party. And Ramona is sort of bouncing around, complaining with antsy energy, trying to get out of her chores. 

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Every single one of them, you get this sense, is just operating at their worst. They're each just trying to make it through the day, cope, survive, and they're really at each other constantly. In an effort to salvage the day, toward the end of the chapter, Mr. Quimby says, "We're going to Whopper Burger, which is their local diner food chain. 

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And you can tell the way that she tells the story through gritted teeth. He's like, "And we are going to enjoy it." There's this sense of, "By, golly, we're going to just enjoy each other on this day." Even though none of them is really happy.

‍

And at that table, they're at a dinner table and you can picture it. It's just a diner, it's not a fancy restaurant. They're sitting at the table. But there's something about gathering around that table, making a decision to leave the gloomy house behind. And just, brilliantly, what Beverly Cleary does is she shows us, how they each start to move toward a, slightly, better version of themselves. 

‍

Mrs. Quimby stops herself from reprimanding Ramona about her manner. She kind of pulls in that little perfectionist part of her and just smiles instead. Beezus stops herself from complaining. She just pulls in that cranky teenage part of her and is present at the table. 

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Mr. Quimby smiles, there's a sense of a softening, a sense of the worry leaving him. And Ramona stops herself from commenting on everybody else. And you just get this feeling that slowly, just with these micro decisions, each one of them is shifting into a better version of themselves. 

‍

Well, the whole time there's this stranger, at the table over, watching them. And he had an interaction with Ramona when they entered into the restaurant, and she's annoyed by the fact that he's noticed them, that he's observed them. 

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And we don't really know what to make of the stranger. He's described as lonely. He's eating by himself. He's dressed in a way that might suggest he's been to the Goodwill, and he's just by himself. 

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And, so, we don't really know much about him other than that. He's annoying Ramona because she's aware that he's noticed them. And she notices the waitress talking to him, and then he leaves the restaurant. And what happens next is what always stood out to me, is the waitress comes over. 

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Mr. Quimby is getting ready to pay. And the waitress says, "This stranger, this man over here has paid for your dinner." And this is no small thing for the Quimbys. They struggle financially and they're confused. They don't know this man. They've never seen him before. 

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The waitress says, "Yes, he just said he thought you were such a nice family and he misses his own kids, his own family, and he wanted to pay for your dinner." And they're all just stunned, by this, because they don't feel like they've been a nice family. They feel like they've been a cranky, anxious, angst, stern, complaining family all day, and this stranger has seen a nice family. He's seen a group of people trying to be together, and it stuns them. 

‍

And you realize, in that moment, that sometimes when we're in it. When we're in the angst, when we're in the emotions, we don't see the good. We miss those little micro moments where our parent or a family member, our child, or our sister, or our mom, or our dad, or our grandparent, is actually trying to make a step toward just doing it a little bit differently. We miss those moments. 

‍

And, so, when that stranger sees them in a different light, it brings out even more of the best of them. And as they're driving home, each of them is even more kind, even more present, even more grateful, and it's just a beautiful story. And reading it again, I get why it stayed with me there's so much to it. It really hits us. 

‍

This is all of our families, in many ways, or even our friend groups. It doesn't have to be your literal family. This might be your group of friends. This might be your group of relatives, your community. We can feel broken, busted up, we are not getting along, nobody is getting us. 

‍

Even in the best of us, even in the best of our families or our friend groups. We can feel more of the melancholy, more of the angst, more of the misses than we feel the joy and the connections. We humans are messy. 

‍

I think there's a reason that memory stuck with me all these years. It's such a picture of family and, man, there are hard days. There are days where the melancholy feels deeper than the joy. And even on Thanksgiving, that is true, especially, I would say, during the holidays that is true. Everything is magnified. We feel the grief, we feel the melancholy, we feel the angst.

‍

Here's the thing, even as you feel those things, even as you welcome those feelings. I also don't want you to miss small moments of joy, and that's what that parable is really about. It's not about a happy ending in the sense of, "Oh, yay, and now we were all happy for the rest of our lives, and all treated each other well every day from here to the eternity." That's not what happens.

‍

But there's a moment where they notice. They notice themselves pulling back the sharp barb. They, each, notice themselves pulling back on the criticisms. They each have a moment of showing up a little bit more like the best version of themselves. 

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They each have a moment. And even the lonely man, in the story, if you look at this as a parable, he's lonely. He's missing his family. We don't know why he's not with his kids or his grandkids. Maybe they live far away. Maybe he's ostracized from them, we don't know. 

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I know some of you feel ostracized from your family. I hear from you. You write to me. You'll say things to me, "I'm the toxic one. I'm the one whose kids have set the boundaries with." You feel like the one who's been ostracized. 

You're lonely. You're facing hard things about yourself and I want to say a special note to you, if you're feeling that way this holiday. "I'm the one that my kids said, 'I can't be with you this holiday.'" 

‍

Think of that old man and that parable. What's a kindness you could do for somebody else? That's part of your healing. You are starting to heal too. And part of what you do to love them is not to beg, or plead, or control, or manipulate, or guilt trip them into showing up for you. 

‍

Part of what you're doing is granting them the space that they've requested. Honoring what they've asked for from you, and that's painful. And that's causing you to have to look at yourself in all new ways and face shame, and that's hard. And my prayer goes out to you this Thanksgiving, as you honor these hard things that you're facing. 

‍

What if you could do something nice for someone else, for someone else's family? What if you could turn toward healing in a new way? What if you could find a way to give thanks for that moment, even amidst a lot of pain that you're facing? 

‍

Maybe you are Ramona in this story. You feel like you're the one that's pointing out all the hard things. You're the namer. You're the one who is honest. You're the one who's like, "We're not always nice. We're actually not doing a very good job today." If that's who you are. If that's who you are, what if today you could just take a step back, and look for the good. Look for what is working in your family today. 

‍

You might be like Mrs. Quimby the one trying to hold all things together, you've got a fistful of bills. You're worried about everyone. And as a result, you're barking out orders, trying to get everybody else to just get along. What if you could take a deep breath and just notice what's going well? What to give thanks for today? 

‍

And maybe you're like, Mr. Quimby, you've just made some hard decisions. You've moved away from some old ways to pursue something better. It's scary, it's foreign, it's uncomfortable, it's new, you're a little wobbly. You're not sure what's next for you. 

‍

What if you could just take a deep breath today, and pause, and notice what's going right. What can you give thanks for? And what if you are Beezus, cranky, a little grumpy, a little tired of your family, not sure you really want to be with them. Give yourself grace, take a little space and then notice one thing, you can give thanks for.

‍

Each of us is represented by a member of this parable. The one who is lonely. The one who is anxious. The one who is melancholy. The one who is irritable. The one who is facing hard changes. And maybe for you, you need to minimize the togetherness today in order to be thankful. 

‍

Maybe you're someone who needs to take a deep breath, in order to notice what's good alongside what's hard. 

‍

So today, and over the coming month, as you consider the holidays:

‍

What if you could acknowledge one good thing about this gathering, this day, this family, these people, yourself? 

‍

And what if you could also honor one thing that's hard?

‍

This Thanksgiving, I want you to consider creating space for what's hard, for what's good, and for what's messy today. Give thanks for what you can and give grace for what feels hard. And no matter where you find yourself in this story, today, I'm with you in prayer.

‍

I am sending love to each of you today. I'm so grateful that you're here. Give thanks, today, for what you can and give grace, today, for what feels hard. 

‍

OK, buckle up, today's conversation on The Best of You podcast goes deep, and we both get really honest about own struggles. I could have talked with Mary for hours about how to get off the treadmill of perfecting and proving your worth-and start claiming the life you actually want. You do not want to miss the end where we get into social media, the curse of comparison, and the approval chain from which no one is immune.

‍

We touch on so much in this episode, including:

1. The hidden fears that drive us to perfect and prove our way into belonging

2. If we let go of working to earn the approval of others, then what?

3. The moment Mary discovered that chasing gold stars was not leading her to what she actually wanted

4. The pitfalls and perils of social media

5.  How to get out of comparison traps

6.  The voice in our heads that keeps us running in circles

7.  The real mark of emotional health (and it's *not* never failing or never feeling hurt)  

8. 3 questions to ask yourself as you stop chasing approval:

• If tomorrow, it were all gone:
  • What would you do differently?
  • What would you roll up your sleeves and do the hard work of rebuilding again?
  • What doesn't seem to matter anymore? (Questions from Slow Growth Equals Strong Roots)

Connect with Mary at www.marymarantz.com/quiz

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

• Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
• Download Abide Sleep and Pray Meditation and text my promo code BESTOFYOU to 22433 today to get 25% off!

Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

‍

Resources

• Grab a copy of Mary's new book Slow Growth Equals Strong Roots wherever books are sold
• Dirt, by Mary Marantz
• Boundaries for Your Soul, by Alison Cook and Kimberly Miller
• How to make daily commitments to yourself in The Best of You Chapter 6
• Episode 10: What are Limiting Beliefs and How Do I Overcome Them with Mary Marantz
• "Wherever you Go There You Are" is the title of a book by Jon Kabat-Zinn
• Over the Top: Moving from Survival to Stability from Stability to Success, from Success to Significance
• Alison on The Mary Marantz Show
• Resources for support

On today's episode of The Best of You podcast, I'm talking with the wonderful and wise Toni Collier who shares bravely about finding herself stuck in the performance trap, and how she clawed her way out. Toni's capability & high capacity helped her survive, but she also wound up exhausted, broken, and numbing. As Toni says, "I had a source, which is God, but the resources I did not have." And she had to learn to discover a more authentic, wholehearted way.

‍

Here's what we discuss:

1. How capability, strength, and achievement can turn into survival strategies
2. Why we turn toward numbing as a way to cope with pain
3. What finally drove her to get help
4. How she started to find healthy relationships and find her way out of the pain.
5. Practical ways she keeps the performer part of her in check now.
6. What she would say to her young performer's heart now.
(Be ready for some tears on this one. . .)

Grab a copy of Toni's new book Brave Enough to Be Broken wherever books are sold.

‍

Thanks to our sponsor:

• Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!

Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

‍

Resources

• Learn more about the 7 P's of Managing Perceptions in Chapter 8 of The Best of You: Break Free From Painful Patterns, Mend Your Past, and Discover Your True Self in God, by Dr. Alison Cook
• Grab a copy of Toni Collier's new book Brave Enough to Be Broken wherever books are sold
• Resources for support

‍

Transcript

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Alison: Hey everyone, I'm Dr. Alison, and I'm so glad you're here to discover what brings out the best of you. This podcast is all about breaking free from painful patterns, mending the past, and discovering our true selves in God. I can't wait to get started as we learn together how to become the best version of who we are with God's help.

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Hey everyone. Welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast. Where we are going through The Seven Ps of Managing Perceptions. The ways that parts of us try to get us to cope. Try to get us to show up in our lives that keep us from authentic connection with others, with God, and with parts of ourselves that need our attention. And today we're going to talk about a performer part. 

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This is that part of you that can shape-shift, that can play different roles, that is adept at getting the job done. It might be a part of you that achieves, or it might be a part of you that just knows how to get the job done. And knows how to show up in whatever way is necessary in order to earn the approval, earn the affection of other people. 

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And my guest today, to talk about this performer part, is a new friend of mine, Toni Collier. Toni is an amazing woman who's the author of a brand new book called Brave Enough to Be Broken. And she's also got a very adept performer part of her, that did a lot to help her survive and almost got the best of her. 

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Toni is a coach and she's the founder of Broken Crayons Still Color. An international women's ministry that helps women process their brokenness and reclaim hope. And before we get started with Toni, I wanted to read you a few of these quotes from her new book. That really stood out to me and I just loved because they fit so well, they align so well with everything we talk about on this podcast.

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That we have to trust God. We want to turn toward God in everything we're doing, especially, in this work of healing. And we also have to equip ourselves with the tools that God gives us, which is so much the focus of this podcast.

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So here are some quotes, just to get started, before I bring Toni on.

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"In the past, I would plead for God to take away the pain. Today I pray for God to be with me in the pain, as He and I journey toward hope."

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Another quote, "I believe that Jesus is in the valleys with us. But even more than that, He wants to give us every tool to claw our way out. He's smart, and because He is the Creator of all and is working through and in everything. Not only is He spiritually present with us in every moment, but He's also giving us the practical tools to live redemption out day-by-day." 

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I just love that Toni, in this book, offers real spiritual wisdom as well as practical tools of how she dug herself out, and how you can dig yourself out too. So with that, Toni, welcome to The Best of You podcast. I'm so glad you're here.

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Toni: I'm so grateful to be here, and I'm so excited to dive into the hard things and bring Jesus in it too. 

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Alison: You are just so open, and that's a big part of your path toward healing. But I want to just start a little bit at the beginning. In Brave Enough to Be Broken, in the very first chapter, you write, "I hadn't even begun to process the childhood wounds. that dug deep into my performer's heart."

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Toni: Mm.

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Alison: It started with taking care of your mom after she'd suffered a massive stroke, when you were eight. And immediately, of course, my inner therapist, I was like, "What do you mean by performer's heart?" Tell us a little bit more about that performer part of you. That from what I read, stepped in really, legitimately, had to step in, but then got a little extreme, you were young. So tell me a little bit about what you mean by that.

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Toni: When I first started my counseling journey. My counselor recommended a book called The Performer's Heart, and I started to dive into it, and I was like, "Man, this is me." Essentially what was happening was, and this is probably going to get just a little intense real fast. 

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But what was happening was, yes, my mom was so sick, she had a massive stroke when I was eight years old. She was paralyzed on her left side. We found out she had a blood clot, she lost her large intestine, I mean, really life-threatening things. And because my father went to overdrive at work, and he really started to kind of hide in his work, and my brothers went to drugs, and all the things, it was just me and my mom. 

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And, so, there were moments where if I didn't know how to drive my mom to the doctors she may have died. And, so, now, I'm growing up with this idea that if I don't take care of something. That if I don't lead something, if I'm not the one that shows up, then, things will die. That's how extreme my body was processing it. Is, "I have to be in charge, I have to do it. I have to protect everyone or they'll die."

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And, so, what happened was, obviously, that leaked over into all of these other areas of my life. I also wanted to make my dad proud because if I did really well if I performed really well, he would show up. He would come back. He would say he's proud. He would leave work to come to my cheerleading competition or my acting competition. 

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And, so, there was just this ping-pong of like, "I'm performing to make sure that everyone stays safe and alive. I'm also performing for attention. For someone to just look at me and say, 'We're proud of you. We see you working so hard to keep everything afloat.'" And, obviously, that then manifests into college, and then it leaked over into ministry. What does that look like? 

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Well, you stand on stages and you perform and you don't share what's actually happening. So you don't get healed, and then you are an unhealthy leader in ministry because you're just performing. So, yes, all that.

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Alison: It's unbelievable, I mean, just to put the juxtaposition I, probably, already am bent in you toward being very capable, high-achieving, I'm sure that was already in there. But then you overlay the trauma of what happened to your mom, probably other traumas, where you, literally, had to step up. You had to step up and perform beyond what any child should have to do. 

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Toni: Yes.

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Alison: You're still performing at school. You're still all the things you just said, you're getting affirmed for all. It makes so much sense, to me, that the message, what I'm hearing you say, is there's a message this part of you picked up. That was like, "Well, I can do it, I am doing it, and no one else is going to do it either." To some degree.

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Alison: Oh, yes, 100%.

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Alison: And no one was taking you aside, Toni, and saying, "This isn't your job." It sounds like there wasn't really anyone stepping in.

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Toni: Yes, I think that's what I would say hurts the most, when I'm in counseling, when I'm processing with my counselor. The thing that gets that frog up in my throat, it gets me a little eyes to tear is the question like, "Where was everybody? Where were the school counselors? Where were my other family members? And, of course, where were you, God?"

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Alison: Mm-hmm. 

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Toni: In my deepest, darkest moments, at the beginning of my healing journey, I was like, "God, where were you? Why weren't you protecting me?" Which then manifested into the lie that God doesn't protect you. 

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But all along, He actually was right there protecting me from so many things, and bottling up every single one of my tears. His 'Withness' was not the question. It was, well, what do you do when everyone around you is not with you? How do you reconcile that? And it was tough, so tough.

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Alison: Yes, I talk a lot of time about being spiritually strong. We have all the belief in God but, absolutely, no one, I mean, we still need the skills, the tools to learn how to live that. Now, the sense I get from your book, Toni, without spoiling it for anybody. Just the vulnerability that you share in the book is you go between, and I talk about this a lot in Boundaries for Your Soul. So you go between this over-performing, and over-producing, getting the job done, all the things on one hand, and then numbing. Which makes sense, "Let's shut it down." 

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Because those tender, vulnerable, sweet young parts of you were not getting the care that they needed. So tell me a little bit about that. At what point, I'm sure that's not a conscious choice. "Gee, I'm over-performing, so, golly, let's numb it down." How did that happen? If you put yourself back in young Toni when you started numbing. I don't know if there's a story that comes to mind or a first moment where it was just...

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Were you conscious? I mean, reading your story, now, it's like, "of course you did. Of course, you shut yourself down. It makes perfect sense." But at the time, I'm just curious if you were conscious of it or if it was more just kind of desperation, "And I'm just doing what I need to do in the moment to survive."

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Toni: Yes, 100%. I mean, I think it's the latter. I think, as children, as teens, we're so young, we're so resilient, but we are doing what we can to survive. And the very things that we've used to cope, growing up, becomes the things that take us out as adults. It's like, "Whoa, that is not a good behavior girls and boys." But I was just doing the best I could. 

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Alison: Oh, yes. 

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Toni: And the moment was when I was 13, I'll never forget it, I went over the summer to stay with my godparents and I just loved their life so much. They had a whole family, no one was sick. They had these fun things that they did. They went to basketball games, and football games and all their kids were able to be kids. And, so, of course, when you catch a glimpse of that, it's almost like a mirror to your pain and you're like, "Darn it, I want my life to be like this." And I did not want to go home at all. 

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Alison: Mm-hmm.

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Toni: I remember returning, and that was the first time that I'd really fallen vulnerable to a much older guy in high school. Who was very sexually manipulative for my entire freshman year, in high school. He would just perform these sexual acts on me until I lost my virginity at 13 in my bedroom when my parents were gone. 

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And it was the first time, I think, that I had found something to numb with and it was just this escape, that sex gave to me. And he also introduced me to marijuana and drinking. And, so, that just added to the numbing. I look back now and I'm like, "Yes, it was that summer when I experienced a whole family or what looked like a whole family, and I just got so sad and I didn't want to feel that anymore. And, so, that's when I started numbing, absolutely.

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Alison: That makes so much sense, the juxtaposition is so... and I hear this a lot, almost tasting, or glimpse this beauty, or this safety in this family where you maybe could even be a kid. 

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Toni: Yes. 

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Alison: Where you didn't have to be the adult, you could just be. A glimpse of it, while beautiful and good, also stirred up all that pain and all that sadness. And what 13-year-old knows how to deal with that? You were not equipped. And, so, someone comes in with a pseudo-false version, and it makes so much sense.

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Toni: I like what you said about a 13-year-old not being equipped. And what I'm excited about in this book, is that I think we have a lot of adults that aren't equipped either. 

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Alison: Yes. 

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Toni: I was numbing from 13 all the way up until 24. I got a divorce, I finally, decided to clean my life up, but I didn't have the tools and the resources to really claw my way out. I had to go get them. I had a source, which was God, but the resources, I didn't. And it's unfortunate because we have so many 25, 30, 50, 60, 70, year olds who also aren't equipped to heal, and to get into counseling, and have all these other resources. 

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I think that's something that we should pay attention to. I bet there's someone that's like, "Ooh, snap, I'm 35 years old, am I equipped?" And it's like, yes, we should be asking ourselves that question right now. 

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Alison: A 100%, I love that, that you're saying because part of the reason you weren't equipped is because the adults who were supposed to be caring for you, weren't equipped.

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Toni: Yes.

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Alison: And, so, again, we always talk about this. I always want to add the caveat, all the moms listening, all the dads listening, all the parents, we don't say this to shame. As our friend, Curt Thompson, says, "We say this to name what's true." Not to shame, but to name. When those caregivers are not there and not equipped, there is a fallout for that that we have to be real about.

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Toni: And I say this all the time, and this was a huge part of my healing journey with my parents, is that there is a difference between people that are wicked and those that are weak. And the truth is, my mom could have done nothing. 

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There was nothing else that she could have done with her health. It was not her fault that she got sick, that she had all these medical issues. There was nothing else she could have done. And, for my dad, when I started healing from things in my past, with my father. I realized that he had never had another example of parenting then. His dad and his dad... 

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And, so, I think that's so good, Alison, we've got to give people the grace to be imperfect as we all are. And from that place, I think, it's honestly so much easier to forgive if we're being honest. So many things were reconciled in my past, from just understanding that my parents were just broken, imperfect human beings. That needed the same grace that I ended up needing as well. 

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Alison: And we could hold true things in our own healing journey, as adults, of, "I didn't get what I needed." And that is true, there is a reason for that. And sometimes we're more there. Sometimes we go through phases of anger, we go through phases, and that's valid. And then we get to this point of, "And here are the reasons that I didn't get what I needed." And it sounds like you've done a lot of that work. 

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I'm curious, Toni, so you're numbing all the way through 23. But from what I understand, as you tell the story, you're also high-performing all the way through too well, you're doing both at a high level. First of all, were you aware of that divide? Were you aware of that split? And was anybody around you or could you keep it hidden?

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Toni: Oh, I don't know, first of all, I thought I was going to be a lawyer. Which is probably why I kept it hidden so well, and no, I did not recognize it in the moment. I say this all the time, though, "I was living, legitimately, two different lives."

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I mean, I really was, my counselor calls it my ability to be a chameleon. I can just bend, and move, and be everything everybody wants me to be, which is a part of that performer part. And I was 16, I graduated high school, but I was also, literally, sneaking out of my parents' house, stealing the car, going to smoke weed, all the stuff. 

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I was captain of the cheerleading team. I was in the debate team, thespian society as an actress. I was winning awards and setting records in high school because, again, there was this back and forth of, "I got to make my dad proud. I want him to say he's proud so bad, so I got to fight."

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But the only way for me to have the strength to endure, to actually push forward, is to numb all the painful parts. They cannot come in the room because they're going to freaking destroy me. And, so, I just pushed them all underneath the rug. And, unfortunately, as you know and we know, and we should all know you leak until you implode and then you explode. 

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And that's what happened at 23 and 24 it just all bubbled up to the surface and it was like, "Oh, I can't do both. I've got to find some health here. I've got to stop allowing the pendulum to swing back and forth between these two extremes and find a rhythm, that's healthy for my life."

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Alison: It's unbelievable. I mean, as we always say, "I honor the parts of you that we're working so hard. To keep you going by performing, achieving, and numbing." That's how you survived. Talk us through a little bit that moment when you realized, "This isn't going to work anymore."

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Toni: Oh, my gosh, first of all, I lost everything. I'd gotten into a marriage at 19. Gotten engaged, moved to a whole different state, it was a crazy guy. I knew him for like three months, it was crazy. But I was performing. I was like, "Look at me, I'm young, I'm about to get married. I'm an adult, here I am, look at me go." And I ended up being in a really toxic and verbally abusive marriage. 

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But I had a daughter in that and it took me a while to leave and I finally left. And then I was also in a really spiritually abusive church, and I transitioned out of that church as well. And next thing you know I am a single mom, I am living with another single mom. Because I can't afford a place for myself, looking for a job. I had been in ministry, I'd been on stages and now I hadn't and I just lost everything.

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And I also decided to stop numbing. I'm like, "I want to start over. I want a new life. I want to get it together." Well, when you stop numbing, it's when really all the things start to come to the surface. I was doing drugs, smoking, alcohol to numb, and anxiety set in. And I was like, "Whoa, what's this?"

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And it's like, "Oh, well, you've always been battling with anxiety. You just didn't know it because you were numbing it and hiding it so much." And, so, in that moment, I just remember pleading with God to take the pain away. Because it was almost like I had woken up to the reality that I had a really hard first 20 somewhat years of my life. Because numbing keeps you from that, it tries to keep you safe until it doesn't anymore.

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And I just crumbled. I had to send my daughter to be with my parents for that summer, so that I could rebuild my life and figure out what was next. And I knew that I needed to go into counseling, I just was so scared to. Because in our culture, in the African-American culture, it was like, "What are you even talking about? Why are you going to go see a shrink? Are you crazy?"

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I remember when I told my mom, I was like, "Hey, I think, I'm going to go to counseling." She, literally, picked up the phone and called me. She was like, "Are you bipolar? What's going on girl?" And I'm like, "Well, okay, I actually don't know if I'm bipolar or not. However, I would love to go find out."

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But it was just this big stigma of like, "You've got to be crazy psychotic to even think about going to a counselor's office." And, so, I just focused on getting my finances together. But more than anything, I wanted to be a healthy mom, that's what drove me. I don't even think I had the confidence in myself to heal for me, it was for my daughter. I didn't want her to go through what I went through. And, so, I just went and did my work, but it was extremely painful. Extremely painful.

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<Break >

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Alison: I just want to say, Toni, the word brave, the fact that brave is in the title of this book. I just have tears in my eyes, I mean, the performer part of you that was so bravely taking care of your mom. That was so bravely showing up at school, getting all the stuff done. The numbing part of you honestly and truly, that was so bravely trying to help you cope, in whatever way it knew how. 

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But honestly, then, just what you just described, the bravery to go, "I've got a little girl and I got to stop, and I don't even know how." Here's what I love, you say this in the book and it just blessed me, and I want to read it. 

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You say you prayed, "Please, please take the pain away. Please, God, why does my life have to be so hard? Please take the pain away."

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And then you describe feeling a moment of relief, which is beautiful. And then your next sentence is, "That was also the day that I decided to find a counselor."

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Toni: Yes.

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Alison: I just thought that was so fascinating. You cried out and then you did that brave step of saying, "I got to look at all this stuff."

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Toni: Yes.

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Alison: Tell me a little bit about that. When you reached out for that support, how did that go, initially? Was it scary? Was it pretty quickly like, "Oh, no, this is working." How did that go?

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Toni: Yes, it's interesting because everything was happening at one time. So I had experienced this really a toxic church. And I was like, "Oh, gosh, ugh, am I going to go to another church again?" I was like, "No, I'm not." And then, all of a sudden, I was like, "Man, I just really want to be in church." And, so, I visited North Point Ministries and messed around, and found an incredible church community, with a healthy pastor and all kinds of great things. And, so, that was happening at one time. 

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And then I started realizing that the people that I had surrounded myself with, I just couldn't anymore. If I wanted a life change, I actually had to change my community as well. And, so, honestly, I think I stumbled into this because I just cut everybody off. I was like, "Okay, nobody talks to me, I need to get my life together."

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But what it did was it made room for a healthy community. Because, oftentimes, we want new friends, but we've got all these other friends that are in our inner circle and they're like, "Well, how do I transition them out? What do I do?" And I talk about that in the book, too. How do you transition people to save space for you? 

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And, so, that was happening at once, and then later down the line, I met my, now, husband, Sam, and I was like, "Who is this guy?" And he just loved me so much and I was like, "Dude, what's happening?" He was so emotionally aware. He was like, "Hey, I want to talk to you about my feelings."

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I'm like, "You're a guy, you don't have feelings." Which is what I learned from my dad. All of it was happening at one time. What was great about starting to experience a healthy community, a healthy church, a healthy boyfriend, was that it was a mirror that showed me that what I had been doing wasn't healthy, and I think, for many of us, that's what really helps. 

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When we start to pursue health, it starts to overflow in all areas of our lives. And then it starts to show the very things that you're battling with, and that's what was happening. As I sat in the counseling office, no, it wasn't cute at first. 

As a matter of fact, I went up in there with my arms crossed and I was like, "What are you going to do girl?" And she's like, "Tell me your whole life." And I gave her my whole little story and I spit it off all fast like nothing's happened at all.

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And she's like, "Are you okay?"

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And I was like, "Yes, I'm fine. What do you even mean? I'm good to go." I was very standoffish. I felt very unprotected, and then I realized that I had a part to play in counseling. If I wanted to actually heal, then I needed to open up. And, again, it was because I had friends, now, that were like, "Oh, I went to counseling and I've got this homework I've got to do."

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And I'm like, "You do your homework? What?"

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It's like, "Yes, you actually need to go and do your work outside of the counseling office." And I was like, "Oh, okay, I'm going to do that." And, so, it was just this process of all this revelation and witnessing healthy people, and just owning it for myself.

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Alison: I love that. There are a couple of things you said in there. Again, first of all, just this partnership with you doing the work and, obviously, with God. But there are a couple of words you said that I just want to pause on because I love it. I think you said, stumbling. You said, "I'm stumbling my way. I'm stumbling around, stumbling my way, I happened upon this church." 

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And what I hear in that is, and I think you say this in the book, but so many people are like, "What is my five-step plan?" And it's just you had a new direction. You're like, "I'm going to move toward healing. I don't know where to get it, so I'm going to stumble around, happened upon." And I hear this all the time: toxic church, toxic church. . . "Oh, my golly, this is a healthy church." It's just, "There's some health here. There's some health in this man that I'm dating."

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It's messy that process, and I really appreciate that you're saying, "I was doing a lot of different things at once. I just knew I had to change. And, so, I threw a lot of things at the wall and noticed what stuck, noticed what was healthy." And I really appreciate just that honesty about that because the process is not always easy. Especially as, to use your words, we're clawing our way out. It's just trying to go in the right direction. Trying to go in a healthier direction. 

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Toni: I love that you bring that up, too, because that was the reason why I even started my women's organization, Broken Crayons Still Color. Because healing isn't, I mean, we know this, we've heard the quote, "Healing is not linear." It's this weird, windy, tight-squeezed process. And I really wanted to try a little bit to put legs to some of this healing stuff. 

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A roadmap, if you will, of what I did because I know that there are people out there that are just like, "I don't even know how to find counseling. I don't even know what it means to have a healthy friend. I don't know what boundaries are. I don't know how to put those up and have those hard conversations."

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And I just think it's good to have a roadmap. It's good to have a one, two, three-step. But just like you're saying, if you're just going towards hope, I just believe that you'll get there. 

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Alison: Yes. 

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Toni: If you're just like, "I just want a brighter day. I want to do better." If you're humble enough to say, "I'm not getting everything right. I've contributed to some of these situations. I've contributed to some of my pain. I've been a victim maybe in the past, but I don't have to stay a victim." Those hope-filled statements and declarations, I think we'll get there. I really do believe that.

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Alison: And it can be messy. I love what you're saying, even with the boundaries. I talk a lot to people about scripts, and how to do it, and how to say it, and it's all helpful. And, then, sometimes, there's a part of me that's like, "And just do it the best you can." And sometimes we do it real sloppily. It's okay, especially when you're at rock bottom, you just figure out how to get out and get out. It's not always pretty, and you can always go back later if you need to.

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Toni: Hey, I didn't say that right. . .

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Alison: Yes, right, if the person is someone who was worthy, they'll be there in the long run. If they weren't then. Now, a couple of more questions I want to touch on. Now you're a speaker, you are an author, you've had another baby, you're married. You've got all this stuff going on. You've got this organization. 

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That performer part of you, how do you keep that part of you? You're clearly an incredibly capable woman, it's a gift, it's a talent, it's beautiful. How do you keep that part of you in check? So that you're also making sure to stay in balance, stay in touch with the ongoing work of healing, and the hard things that we continue to face in life?

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Toni: Yes, absolutely, this was a real journey because the performer was deeply in me. It was in the fabric of my being. The first step was, I remember starting Broken Crayons Still Color, for the first time, and it was just a one-man show. It was just me a blog, I'm doing my thing. And, literally, a month after I started it, I started to feel the Lord's say to shut it down. 

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And I was like, "Oh, no, sir. No, you're not about to embarrass me out here. I have started something. I've got my name on it, I don't know what you're talking about." And He was like, "Shut it down." And I submitted to that and not only did He say, "Shut it down." But I also took a break off of social media. 

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Now, before that, if people can scroll all the way down on my Instagram, I was posting pictures of me on stage, "And look at my life now and look at who I am." I mean highlight reel all the way. After I took a three-month break off of social media, I came back and I realized that I was healing, I was doing a great job, but I had really just refocused the performer. The performer before was in a really toxic marriage and just pretending that it wasn't happening.

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Now, I wasn't pretending more than I was just glamorizing. I was just showing this very beautiful part. This now redeemed, still coloring part of my life. And the Lord was like, "Mm-hmm, sweetie pie, nothing is wasted. You have not walked through all of that for nothing."

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And, so, what I started doing was anytime I would post on social media, I would put it in my notes first. So I called this method like slowing down on the highway. So you know when you have to get off on the highway, and you're about to pass up your exit. The one thing my mom always told me is, "Don't try to speed to the exit if you're about to miss it, slow down. Slow down, get over, give yourself some time, slow down."

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I slow down now in everything that I do. In the way that I lead, in the way that I parent. I have to slow myself down, and I write my captions in notes and I pray over them, and I think about it, "Is this about me?" 

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I ask myself really hard and honest questions. "Is this about me, are we trying to perform, or is this pointing people to Jesus? Is this really authentic or what are you doing here, sweet girl? Are you just trying to be somebody that you're not?" And it's that way in my whole entire life.

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Alison: Mm-hmm. 

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Toni: One of my sayings that we have in our organization is "We don't get ahead of God. Because it is when we get ahead of God, then, we're performing out of our idols, out of our own confidence, all the things. And, so, it's just a lifestyle of slowing down, of asking God, of being certain that I'm doing it out of the overflow of who I am. It's  breaking up with balance, having a hundred tabs open versus marrying priorities.

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Alison: Mm-hmm.

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Toni: Where am I right now? 

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Alison: Mm-hmm. 

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Toni: And I think that's just awareness is, probably, what we call it. 

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Alison: I love that.

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Toni: Just knowing myself; I know what it feels like to perform 

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Alison: Mm-hmm. 

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Toni: And, so, if I start to drift into that, I got to check myself and slow it on down, and shut it down.

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Alison: I love that. What would you say, Toni, to that young, I don't know whether she's eight, 13, or 23, that young. 

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Toni: Look, you already cried about this, Alison, so I'm strong now. 

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Alison: What would you say to that young performer part of you now?

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Toni: Yes, I think I would just tell her two things. I would say number one God is kind. That means a lot to me because I grew up thinking God was this big mean God. And that He was at the end of the tunnel saying, "You have to get it right before you have access to Me." 

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When, now, I know that He's really the God that's lighting up the tunnel to get me through. And eight-year-old Toni, 13-year-old Toni, even 19-year-old Toni needed to know that God is really kind. 

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Our friend Dr. Curt Thompson says this as well, "Sometimes, it's not even the things that we go through, the brokenness that we go through, the grief that we have to carry. It's the pain and fear of doing it alone." A kind God is with you, and I just think I would tell her that. And then I would also say to her, "If you didn't do another thing. If you didn't do another thing in the world, you are so worthy."

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Alison: Mm-hmm. 

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Toni: And as simple as that is to hear, now. Now I don't even think it would impact me because I'm like, "Dang, I am a worthy." But nine-year-old Toni needed to hear that no one told her that. No one told her that she didn't have to perform for her worth, and I would tell her that.

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Alison: I love that, that's beautiful. What would you say to another woman, right now, who is feeling at the bottom of that pit and desperate to start clawing her way out?

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Toni: I think the one thing that I have been saying here, recently, is giving yourself permission to feel the pain and to be right there in that valley. I think that people can mistake this idea of being brave enough to be broken for, "Put your superhero cap on and go and do the hard thing no matter what."

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But the truth is there were ebbs and flows, in my healing journey. There were moments when I had to call my counselor and say, "Listen, every week I need a break, let's go biweekly. Right now, I need a break. This hurt, this last thing that we talked about, it was a lot for me." And even with my organization, I can recognize that there were moments where I used it as a crutch. The Broken Crayons Still Color and it's like, "Okay, it's broken it's okay. Let's keep it going and let's fix it, it's all good. Everybody just clean it all up."

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But really there is power in that valley that you're in right now. The pain that you're feeling right now, and there's grace for it, and there's patience for it. And, so, I would encourage that person, right now, to be in that valley, but know that we are not going to leave you there. God's not going to leave you there. There are mountains of hope to claw your way to and it is worth it. It is worth the work. And, so, I just want us to the kindness, just balance it both. 

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Alison: I love that. I love that the valley is painful, it's hard, and it is a season, it's not forever, and I love that. Almost to the slowing down and even just being able to name that you're in it, is part of the movement toward healing.

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I also love, I want to underscore what you said about the pacing that you needed to do with your therapy. You get to say, "Every week is too much for me. I need to slow it down or I need to."

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I love that you had the courage to say, "I got to go at my own pace here." And I want to tell people, we talk a lot on here about even therapists can push or try to get you to do. You have to advocate for yourself and say, "I'm in it, I'm doing the work and this is the pace that's working for me right now." So I really appreciate that you highlighted that. 

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All right, Toni, I just so appreciate you. Question I ask all of my guests, two questions, one, what or who is bringing out the best of you right now?

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Toni: Oh, can I be honest, my little four-month old is. I mean, the way he even looks at me and holds onto my hair. There is just this tenderness that I think babies give, that just reminds you that you can still be tender, too, as an adult, and vulnerable, and not able to feed yourself. He just reminds me that I can do that too. 

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I can just lay and not be able to hold my head up. And I think that's just such a beautiful picture of who God is. Just the God that made our little heads all wobbly and we can't even hold our neck up, and just so innocent, and fragile, and he's just like, "I've got you in the palm in my hand." So my little four-month old is doing a work in me right now.

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Alison: I love that. That's beautiful. And what needs and desires are you working to protect?

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Toni: Oh, I mean this is good because I am, literally, in a season, right now, now where I'm planning out my next year, and I've got to put some really hard boundaries around my time. One of the things that's been consistent in my life is that everyone said, "Oh, you have so much capacity."

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And I'm learning now that just because I have a lot of capacity doesn't mean I need to use it all. There can just be a season where we're just running on 60%. Now, it's not to say that 40% ain't there because I will crush it if I need to at a 100%. 

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However, I think I'm starting to convince myself and really believe that even 40% is okay. It's okay, it's just I'm only going to do 40% this week. And, so, yes, I want to get to a place where I can really protect that I need rest and I need the freedom to not fill up, and not be a performer all the way to a 100% percent all the time.

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Alison: I love that you're setting some gentle boundaries with that performer part of you, for the good of all of you. And I love this idea, we talk about all the time on here, this idea of creating some spaciousness. Just some space for margin and is what I hear you saying. Like, "Just because I can doesn't mean I have to. Just because I can doesn't mean I should."

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Toni: Yes.

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Alison: So I love that. Tell people where to find you. How to look you up and-

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Toni: All the things. 

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Alison: Yes, all the things. 

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Toni: So, it's Toni J Collier on everything, t-o-n-i-j-c-o-l-l-i-e-r. The book is called Brave Enough to Be Broken. I love it that you can order it anywhere where all the books are sold, all the things and, yes, that's what's happening.

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Alison: Well thank you so much for being here, today, and thanks for sharing your story so bravely, it's going to help a lot of people. 

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Toni: Thanks Alison. Dr. Alison, thanks for having me.

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Alison: You're awesome.

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We're kicking off a new series on The Best of You Podcast as we move into the last 2 months of the year. How do you shift from managing the perceptions of others to showing up more authentically? In today's episode, I cover the 7 ways we tend to manage perceptions and why it doesn't get us the real connections we crave. I also walk you through an exercise you can do NOW (as in, before the holiday haze sets in) to help you make brave decisions this holiday season.

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Here's what we cover:

1. What does it mean to manage perceptions and why do we do it?

2. The 7 ways we tend to manage perceptions

3. The 2 main problems with managing perceptions

4. Why we have to "retrain" people (& their expectations of us)

5. Examples of steps you can take to honor yourself & your relationships

6. How to create your own "Yes/No List" to help you make brave decisions

7. The courage it takes to say 'no' and how to honor the emotions that inevitably show up when you do

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Thanks to our sponsors:

• Organifi -Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today!
• Download Abide Sleep and Pray Meditation and text my promo code BESTOFYOU to 22433 today to get 25% off!  
• Chosen-Check out Season 3 in theaters starting November 18th. For more information, visit TheChosenTickets.com.

Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Resources

• Learn more about the 7 P's of Managing Perceptions in Chapter 8 of The Best of You: Break Free From Painful Patterns, Mend Your Past, and Discover Your True Self in God, by Dr. Alison Cook
• Episode 25: Types of No Part 1—How to Say “No” in Healthy Relationships
• Episode 26: Types of "No" Part 2—How to Say "No" to Toxicity, The Real Meaning of Turn the Other Cheek & How to Form a Boundaries Committee
• Resources for support

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey everyone, welcome back to this week's episode of the Best of You podcast. And we are starting a new series in honor of a new month, and also in honor of the holiday season. We're going into a busy end-of-the-year with November and December. With Thanksgiving and Christmas, and all the things that go with these two months. 

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Now, we just finished a series on Boundaries and the Bible, where we started on the inside. We started with this idea of making and keeping a promise to yourself. Learning to build trust with yourself. All the way through how to negotiate change in healthy relationships and how to say, "No" in toxic situations. Lots of scripts and tips, especially, in those last few episodes. 

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So in this series, we're going to focus on the seven ways we manage perceptions. Versus the healthy ways of forging authentic connections. And those authentic connections can be with other people, with God, and with ourselves. 

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I'm going to invite on some friends, in this series, as we walk through these seven different ways that we tend to manage perceptions. In the hopes that this will help you show up more authentically, show up in a truer way, going into this also busy, also consuming, holiday season. 

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So first, what do I mean by managing perceptions? Well, I talk about this in chapter seven of The Best of You. So if you want to go deeper, reread that chapter. But here's what I mean, in short, managing perceptions is all about managing how the people around you view you. 

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It's ultimately about protecting yourself, and there's no shame in it, we all do it. But if it's the only way we're showing up in a room full of other people. It leaves us feeling empty, disconnected, and not getting the very thing that we actually want.

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So managing perceptions is about getting other people to see you in a certain way. It's about trying to earn approval, earn love, earn validation, earn our way into a friendship, a group of people, a community. 

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It's all about image management. "If they see me a certain way, I'll be okay."

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"If they see me as good enough, I'll finally belong."

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"If they see me as someone desirable, they'll let me in." It's about gauging what other people want from you in order to earn their approval. And there are a lot of ways that we do this, for example, you might have learned to read facial cues, and you don't even realize it.

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But you walk into a room and you read the cues. If they nod, if they smile, you move in that direction. Or if someone says, "Oh, you look so cute today." You start dressing more in that way. There are all these tiny and big ways, that we work to read the cues other people are sending us. Because we want to fit in. Because we want to feel valued. Because we want to feel okay. Because we want to feel worthy. Because we want to belong. 

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So, again, there's no shame in these ways that we manage perceptions. But if it's the only way we're showing up in a room full of people with our families, with our friends, or even with our spouse or our kids, or a best friend, just one other person, we are missing out on being truly known. 

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Instead of feeling deeply connected to other people, and instead of belonging as the real person that we are. Managing perceptions, typically, leaves us feeling anxious. Constantly gauging ourselves, "Did I do it right?"

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"Did I say something stupid?"

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"Was it okay what I did there?"

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"How did I perform?"

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"How did I look in that situation?" So it can lead to a lot of anxiety. It can lead to a chronic sense of loneliness. It can lead to feeling like an outsider looking in. It can leave us feeling very far from our God-given selves. 

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Managing perceptions means, "I am working to earn your approval and to earn my place of belonging." On the other hand, authentic connection means, "I want to be known as I really am."

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So I want to say it, again, the goal isn't to shame ourselves. So many of us we're conditioned, in big and little ways, to read the room for our cues, and this starts really young. As a child, you learn, from your parents, what's okay and what's not okay. You learn from your peers at school, that if you show up and say something you might get made fun of. Or if you wear something you might get made fun of. 

Or if you play a certain sport, or a certain instrument, or if there's something you like to do in your free time that isn't cool, you might get made fun of. We come by these methods of coping naturally, there is no shame in this. 

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But we've got to begin to identify our go-to methods of trying to manage the perceptions of other people. So that we can learn how to show up more authentically and stay truer to who we really are. 

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So here's some examples; managing perceptions might be pretending like you really want to go to a bunch of holiday functions. Because you feel like you should and because other people are doing it, and because your friends will think it's weird if you don't. 

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And what you really want to do maybe is stay home and enjoy the silence, or enjoy your own decorations, your own Christmas tree, your own twinkle lights. Whatever it may be in silence, reflecting, quietly, on what this year has meant to you, or it could be the reverse. 

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Maybe it's denying your love of a fun festivity. And denying a longing that what you really want is to show up, and play, and be funny, and joke, and have a lot of fun. And feeling pressured into being very serious, and very deep, and very pensive.

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When for you, what you really want to do during this holiday season is to be joyful and have some fun. It can work both ways. It's all about noticing what's going on inside of you and the way that you are tempted to, again, manage the perceptions of the others around you. Versus staying true to what's really going on inside of you.

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Another example, it's spending more money than what you have, or what makes sense, or what really matters because you're trying to keep everybody else happy. Maybe you're trying to keep your kids happy. And, so, you're overextending your budget. You're trying to manage the way they perceive you versus taking the time to get curious about what your budget really is. What really matters to you, and how you can really show love in a thoughtful, kind, authentic way.

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So there are lots of ways we do this at the holidays. I'll share one, a personal example, I am not someone who is great at decorating. It's never been my thing. If you come into my home, you will see exactly what I mean. It's not the latest, greatest, trends. It's not the most up-to-date, perfectly-placed furniture, and wall decor. 

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It's reflective of the things I love and the people I love. It doesn't always come together in a beautifully cohesive template. It's home, to me, and I've learned to accept this part of me. And even at the holidays, it's a little wonky, I'll post some pictures when we get closer. I just try to have fun with it and I've let myself go, from that "Should" idea of what perfection looks like when one is decorating.

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Whether it's for the rest of the year or whether it's for the holidays. Before, when I was trying to manage perceptions, I might have been embarrassed to have someone over to see my scattered way of decorating for the holidays. I might have been embarrassed by that. I might have apologized for that. 

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But what I've learned is to claim that. "This is who I am. This is how I create beauty. For me, beauty looks a little different than it might look for a dear friend, who is gifted at making things look beautiful."

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And here is the beauty in that, the more I accept my own way of creating beauty in my home. The freer I am to enjoy and delight in going into a friend's home, who is a master creator, a master artist. Someone who's deeply gifted and derives great joy from making things beautiful.

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In maybe a more traditional way and maybe more of an instagrammable-worthy way, I end up delighting in that. I love going in and witnessing that beauty in someone else's home. And I love the freedom that I have to be in my own home and enjoy the ways that I create beauty, that doesn't always look like a postcard. And I also delight in the freedom that I have to use my talents in other ways. 

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There's a lot of freedom in letting go of managing perceptions. Of trying to fit in to a box that doesn't really fit right. If I spend a lot of time and attention doing something that, A, doesn't really fit a gift of mine. It's not something I enjoy; it doesn't bring life to me. 

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I'm trying to do it so that someone else will be impressed, that's a waste of my time. That's a waste of the talents that God has given me. It also leaves me feeling frustrated because I'm never going to measure up. I'm never going to be as good at doing this thing that's someone else's. So let's just relieve ourselves. Let's just take ourselves out of that box. 

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Let's each do what brings us joy, what brings goodness into our souls, and then let's celebrate each other. 

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So that's just one example of a way I've had to learn to put a pause. To set a healthy boundary with the part of me that wants to manage perceptions and make sure other people don't walk into my home and go, "Oh, golly, this house isn't very well decorated."

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And go, "This is who we are. These are the things that we value, come on in. You'll find warmth here, you'll find an oasis." And that frees me up to go into other people's homes and delight in what they're good at. 

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The more we make peace with showing up as our true selves. The less we're trying to manage how other people see us, and the more freedom we discover. Both to delight in how God made us to be and to delight in how God made other people. So what are the seven ways we tend to manage perceptions? We tend to try to get the approval, the love, the belonging that we crave with other people.

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We're going to take a deep dive into each one of these over the next few weeks. But, for now, I'm going to give you the list with the mantra that goes with each. And listen to this list and see if there's one, in particular, one or two in particular, that are familiar or resonate with you. 

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Number one, perfect. "If I appear perfect, no one can criticize me."

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Number two, please. "I please others to earn love."

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Number three, perform. "I make myself into what others want me to be."

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Number four, produce. "I'll produce so they think I have value."

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Number five, peace-keep. "I'll stay small, so no one can get angry with me."

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Number six, protect. "I keep my guard up, so no one can hurt me."

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And number seven, power over. "I dominate. I take control of the narrative."

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We all do this on some level. Some of us probably picked two or three from that list, maybe without even realizing it. But ask yourself, what is the way that you manage perceptions when you walk into a room full of people? 

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Do you tend to play small or blend in so no one can criticize you? Or do you work to make sure everyone around you feels affirmed, encouraged, cared for, served, or helped? Are you the workhorse who's making sure everything gets done? You don't necessarily look for the attention, but you do not want to let any one of those balls drop. 

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Or maybe you're the entertainer who's keeping everybody having fun. Maybe you're someone taking control. You figure if you can control everything you can make sure no one sees what's really going on. 

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There is nothing wrong with these qualities, I want to be clear. In fact, all of them have their place, but here's the problem. If you are only working to manage the perceptions of others, two things are going to happen. Number one, you'll lose connection with your core sense of self. 

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You might even find yourself doing activities, saying things, even in relationships, that you don't really want. And number two, you are likely neglecting your own tenderness, your own vulnerabilities. Parts of you that need you to show up for you, in a more authentic way. 

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Here's the thing, I want you to enjoy relationships, activities, holiday gatherings, all the things, with people who stick around when the real you shows up. I want you to learn to turn toward those people, those activities, those conversations that bring you life. That genuinely allows you to show up in both the best of who you are and when you're having a hard time.

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I want you to learn how to turn away from those relationships, from those people, from those activities that rob your joy. That force you to fit into boxes that no longer fit. I want you to find real joy in these next two months, as we close out this year. Where you learn to take brave steps, to honor the person God made you to be. 

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Now, it's a process, it's a journey. We've been talking a lot about it on this podcast. Real connections develop as you learn to listen to the cues inside of your own heart and body.

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Pay attention to your emotions, to your bandwidth, to your capacity. Learning to speak up for what you really need and want, honestly. And it also starts with getting curious about the ways you are tempted to manage perceptions. The ways you are tempted to perfect, to please, to perform, to produce, to peace-keep, to protect, to even power-over.

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It starts with that awareness of that part of you and setting a gentle boundary inside of you. And saying, "You know, I'm going to take a deep breath. I'm going to pause. I'm going to slow down when I walk into this room. I'm going to take a minute to really connect to myself and to God. So I can show up in one simple, small way that is true to myself."

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Now, listen, I understand that it can be scary to show up more authentically. I want to encourage you to take a few brave steps, over this holiday season in particular. Don't go for your hardest thing, unless you feel called and unless you feel ready. But a few brave steps to show up a little bit more authentically. 

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Because here's the thing, we train people to expect certain behaviors from us. If we've always shown up as that producer, that performer, that pleaser, that perfect host. Other people have come to expect that from us. It's not really their fault. It's how we've trained other people that will show up.

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And, so, when we start to change that, it can throw other people off. They might not like it. They might even ask you about it, and that's okay. If the relationship is strong, if the relationship is healthy, you can speak up on behalf and say, "Hey, I'm doing things a little bit differently this year."

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You can use some of those scripts we talked about in the series on boundaries. To say, "Hey, man, I love spending time with you but I'm doing things differently this year. I'm going to show up in a different way." 

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As you stop managing perceptions and showing up more authentically, you might discover that someone else will love that quirky aspect of you, or someone will be thrilled to get to know your preferences. That someone will actually be empowered, through your modeling of a healthy boundary. That someone will see you and love you for the person you really are.

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When you show up more authentically, you open yourself up to wonderful possibilities when it comes to your relationships, when it comes to your activities. Instead of trying to win the approval of everyone around you, you'll start to draw in the people, the activities, the actual nourishment that your soul craves. 

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Instead of managing the perceptions of everyone around you. You open yourself up to being known more authentically, and you're also more available to show up in a healing, empowering way for others. 

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All right, so here's just a quick example of some of the things I'm doing this holiday season. To help my own inner pleaser, producer, and performer, to show up more authentically over this coming holiday season. 

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I am spoiler alert, I haven't announced this yet on my socials. I'm going to be taking a six week break from social media for much of November and all of December. This is something I decided I need to do over the holidays. 

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I want to be able to be fully present this holiday season to God, to my family, to my friends, to myself. I'm discerning a lot about how I want to spend the new year. How I want to spend my time, and some writing projects that I have coming in 2023. Which means I need to scale back and that's one way I can do it. 

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There are things I love about social media, and things that really can just pull me down a rabbit trail of distractions. So I want to take this time to prioritize being present in those ways. I've said a lot of nos to really good things, and that's been hard for me. I've said no to some events. I've said no to some gatherings because I want to have margin over the holidays. 

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I don't want to be running around scattered, just bouncing like a pinball in a machine, from thing to thing. That's not what is nourishing to me. I want to have time in the day to think about, "Oh, what do I want to be doing for this hour?" Versus, "How do I just need to be feeling this time?"

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So I've said some proactive nos that were hard to say, but that were important for me to stay healthy of body, of mind, of spirit, and of emotion. So I'm inviting you now, this first week of November, to take out your calendar and take a look at the next two months, and here's a strategy I want to share with you. I've just gone through this exercise myself. It came out of that whole boundary series we did the last couple of months. But I created a NO list, a MAYBE list, and a YES list. And I just did this in the notes app on my phone.

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I have a NO list, a YES list, and a MAYBE list. And I started with the YES list. What do I absolutely need and want to say yes to over the next two months? And I tried to keep it really small. These are the absolutely YES, I am going to say YES to these few things, and get them on that list. And then if you're not sure, if you're not 100% sure, put some things on that MAYBE list.

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Maybe, "I can't say no yet, but it's also not just 100% yes. So your MAYBE list might be long. And then start to put some things on that NO list. What are you going to say NO to? 

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Now start with the easiest things. The "Man, I'm definitely saying no to x, y, and z. I am saying no to this. I'm saying no to that. I'm saying no to this." Just get clear about the easy nos first. But there's going to be some hard nos. And when you get to those hard nos, they're going to go on that MAYBE list. This all goes back into that MAYBE pile.

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The things want to say yes to but you're not sure you have the bandwidth for, and the things you want to say no to but it's going to be hard. All of those things go on that MAYBE list. And you divide that MAYBE list into two sections. One section that is the, "I wish I could say yes, I'm not sure I can." And the second section is, "I really want to say no, but it's going to be hard."

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So, really, you have three lists, but that MAYBE list has two sections. And I really want you to spend some time with that maybe list. And I want you to pray over it, and I want you to talk to God about it. And if you've taken me up on that idea, to start forming a boundaries committee, you might have called it your no committee. It's that safe friend that helps you with those nos that are really hard to say. Take that maybe list to that person and talk it through with them. 

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But I want you to be proactive with that maybe list. I want you to challenge yourself. Why are you afraid to say those nos? Is it because you feel a sense of responsibility of calling? Or is it because you're afraid of not managing those perceptions? You're afraid of what they'll think if you say no? That there's some message you've told yourself, that you need to do this thing in order to get their approval.

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I really want you to take a look at those things that are hard to say no to, and just examine a little bit prayerfully, and with that safe friend, and inside your own soul. The reason why it's hard to say no and see if you can bump some of those onto that NO list, and go ahead and take action. And, again, if you need some scripts, check out chapter six and chapter nine of The Best of You. Or go back to episodes 25 and 26 of the podcast, where we get into different ways of saying no.

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But I really want to encourage you to move some of those maybes, proactively, onto that no list before the holiday season heats up and it's going to get only harder. It might be things like what you do for the holidays. Where you spend the holidays? How you spend the days after the holidays? How you spend the days leading up to the holidays? 

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It might have to do with the gifts that you are going to give. It might have to do with the cooking that you're going to do. It might have to do with conversations you're going to have or not have. It might have to do with events you've been invited to.

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So take a look at that, and then take a look at the second part of that Maybe list, that are the yeses you really wish you could say, but you might not be able to. And I want you to ask yourself a couple of questions related to those things.

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Is there a no you need to say that's going to be sad? And can you honor the fact that it's going to be sad? Can you allow yourself a little bit of grief about converting that, "I wish I could but I can't" into a no?

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A lot of times we avoid saying a NO that we need to say because it makes us sad. Because we really wish we could. And, so, just notice if that's going on for you. And then, secondly, there may be a yes, you really wish you could say that you can't, because of really legitimate and hard circumstances. It might be a health issue, either yours or a family member's. It might be a financial issue that's really hard. It might be a mental health issue that's hard to talk about. That you're struggling and you need to be really careful with your time.

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And, sometimes, it's just really hard because it brings up frustration. It might even bring up anger about this set of circumstances. You might find that you come face to face with frustration with God. Like, "This isn't fair. I want to be able to do this thing and I can't because of this set of circumstances." Or "These other people are going to be mad at me, and I can't tell them why I don't have the bandwidth right now. And that's just a bummer, man, that just stinks, I hate it."

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And, so, you may have to give yourself permission, again, to grieve. You might have to give yourself permission to lament. You might have to give yourself permission to be a little bit angry even, and God can take it. God can take that anger. And I want to tell you, I'm so sorry, if you're finding yourself in that set of circumstances. Where there are some really good things you want to say yes to and you can't, and it's hard, and I'm with you in that this holiday season.

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I hear you and I want to honor that with you. I want to honor that pain with you. And I'm inviting God right here right now to say God sees that pain too and it's hard, and God doesn't minimize that. God doesn't bypass that. And God also honors the courage that you're showing to say a hard NO, to honor this hard thing that you're going through. 

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It's hard, especially, at the holidays, to be brave. To honor, sometimes, even the hard things that we have to honor, that are going on in our lives. That means we have a reduced capacity, and it makes us mad. And it might make you sad, and I just want you to know I see you and I hear you, and I'm right there with you this holiday season.

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So make those lists and give yourself permission to honor whatever emotion shows up. Especially in that middle category, where it's a big MAYBE. Where you're probably feeling stuck and you can't make that decision because it's hard and it brings up some emotion. 

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Be gentle with yourself. You're not going to get it exactly right. And that's the last thing I want to give you today, is you're going to make some mistakes, and you're going to muddle your way through a little bit. It's going to be messy. You're going to do some things you wish you didn't. You're going to overextend yourself in certain ways, and you might even say some nos that you later regret. This is not perfect. This is not a zero-sum game, as they say. It's not about getting it right. It's about giving yourself permission to show up a little more honestly, with a little more integrity, a little more authentically. 

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Because as you do that, here's the paradox, there's freedom in giving yourself permission, to make some mistakes on this journey of becoming more true to your God-given self. 

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All right, so make those lists. Be brave, and I can't wait to join you here next week with some friends of mine. With some different guests, who are going to talk us through how they've learned to be brave in their lives, in so many of these ways.