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We're hitting hard today on this question "Am I really supposed to die to myself?" So many have been encouraged to misapply the message of self-denial in ways that are not healthy. So what does the Bible really say about it?

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Here's what we cover:

1. What "deny yourself" really means

2. 3 different types of people

3. A surprising invitation

4. A practical exercise to apply to your own life

5. Your Questions: Healed vs. Saved

Do you have questions for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

Want to receive free bonus content? ⁠⁠Sign up for my free weekly email here.

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Resources

• ‍The Best of You, by Dr. Alison Cook
• ‍Genesis 1:27
• ‍Genesis 2:8-9
• ‍John 15:1-8
• ‍Matthew 16:24-25
• ‍Psalm 139:14
• ‍John 12:24-25
• ‍John 1:11-12
• ‍Jesus encourages the suffering: Mark 2:11, John 4:50, John 9:7
• ‍Jesus befriends the ostracized sinners: John 4:25, John 8:11
• ‍Jesus rebukes the elite: Matthew 23
• ‍Matthew 9:21
• ‍Philippians 2:12
• ‍"We are living in eternity right now. We just haven't died yet."‍
• Resources for support

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Related Podcast Episodes:

• Episode 54: Can I Pray My Anxiety Away? A Surprising Approach to the Anxiety Pandemic & How to Walk Yourself & Your Kids Through It
• Episode 55: Am I Supposed to Distrust Myself? Why Trusting Yourself is Necessary to Establishing Healthy Relationships With Other People
• ‍What Does the Bible Really Say Youtube Series
• ‍Boundaries for Your Soul Youtube Series

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Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

Alison: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I'm so glad you're here for this series we're doing on – What Does the Bible Really Say? We're hitting some of these hard questions. Some of these messages we've been taught, while true, while biblical, can sometimes be misconstrued if we are not understanding them in their appropriate context. 

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Both historically, their historical context, and, also, in the context in which these messages land today. And we're going to get into more about this idea of context in today's episode, which is all about this question, Am I really supposed to deny myself? And it's such a great question. Especially in our modern culture, especially in our modern American culture, where there's so much excess. There's so much get what you want, when you want it, right when you want it type of living. 

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There's so much emphasis on the self, which is something that I think a lot about. Because as a psychologist, as a therapist, everything I do I am focused on healing the self. However, I'm always holding that intention with the God who made us. 

So we heal ourselves in relationship with the God who made us, and we do that work of healing the self, not so that we can live for the self, for ourselves. We do that work so that we can live from the truest, most beautiful, God-made part of ourselves.

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So, again, we don't do this so that we can live for ourselves. We do this so that we can live more fully, more holy from ourselves. And by that I mean the truest, most beautiful version of your image-bearing self. This is all rooted in that theology of Imago Dei, which means, in Latin, "Image of God." We bear the image of God. And you'll hear me say this time and time again, I'll speak of us as image bearers. 

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It originates from Genesis 1:27 in the Bible, which says, "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them." This verse shows the orthodox Christian viewpoint that human beings, men and women, alike, are created in the image and likeness of God. 

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We possess inherent dignity, inherent worth, and a special connection to the divine in a way. There's something really unique about what it means to be made in the image of God. 

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So what is significant about being made in the image of God? 

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Number one, it gives us inherent dignity and worth as humans. Every human life, every person, that you meet bears the image of God. And if you think about that, it really changes how you view people. Now, again, it doesn't mean that there are people who are, systematically, seeking to cover over their image of Godness. Are, systematically, denying their image of Godness through their toxic behaviors. We still have free will. We still have choice. But the truth is there is that spark, there is that image of God in every single human soul. 

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One of the things I think a lot about in my own life, since I was a little kid, is one of the areas where I see beauty is through other people. I see a reflection of God in the souls of other people. That's part of what draws me to my work, as a therapist, as a psychologist, someone who studies the human psyche, is the more I get to know a human soul and how intricate it is, how unique it is, how complex it is, how beautiful it is, the more I see glimpses of God. 

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And, oftentimes, I feel similar to how other people feel when they go to an art museum and they behold the beauty of a piece of art. Or people who go into nature and they behold the beauty in a tree, or in a lake, or in these majestic mountains and these things declare the wonder of God. Because all of these things are reflections of the creativity of God. 

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Well, I see that so clearly in human individuals, and I've always seen it that way in my work as a therapist. No matter how broken a person is who comes to me. It is such a joy to get to sit with a fellow image bearer and help that person begin to uncover more and more of that uniqueness, that is a little glimpse, a little reflection, of God that that person was meant to shine forth in this world. 

We reflect who God is in this world which is incredibly amazing, and what an honor, and, also, a little bit scary. We better do a good job with that, because other people are going to project onto God what we show them about God.

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So it shows the inherent dignity and worth that we all have. The notion of imago dei also gives us a sense of moral responsibility. If we are made in the image of God, there's a certain capacity for moral reasoning, for wisdom, for discernment, for an ability to distinguish between right and wrong. And if you think about all the way back to the garden, to that first commandment that Adam and Eve broke, which was they were not to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil. 

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There's a way in which God was drawing a boundary. "You are fellow image bearers, but you do not want the full authority of what it means to know completely the difference between good and evil. That's a weight I don't want you to bear."

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There's an interesting boundary that God put there that He gave us the ability to distinguish right from wrong. To understand we have a conscience, we can be discerning, and there are also limits to that. That God put in place, in the garden, prior to Adam and Eve eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 

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Some scholars think that God put that boundary there as a way of saying, "Listen, I've given you a special role, a special significance, a special creative ability. I have given you creative potential. I have given you stewardship and care." That's another thing that humans are given by God. They are given unique ability to steward and care for other created beings, for animals, for nature, for the environment, for the things around us. 

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With that boundary that God put around the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, there's a way in which God is setting a boundary by saying that, "I want you to stay in relationship with me. There is a limit on what you can do. And you can govern wisely, and you can govern well, and you can care for others, and care for yourself with a lot of complexity, and a lot of ownership, and a lot of authority, and, also, you must always stay in obedient, trusting, relationship with me. 

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You cannot have access to all the knowledge in the universe. You need to stay in relationship with me. That our discernment as humans, our ability to ascertain right from wrong, dark from light, goodness from what is evil, depends on our relationship with God. God is always the ultimate author of all truth, of all goodness, and we must stay constantly attached to Him in relationship to Him. We cannot go out on our own way and try to grasp at the ultimate, sort of cornucopia, of the ultimate knowledge of the universe. 

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If we go out on our own and try to do that without God, we are going to end up in trouble. We are going to end up in trouble, and that's why He put that boundary there, according to some scholars. 

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So while we have a lot of agency, a lot of creative power, a lot of authority, a lot of ability to steward, a lot of discernment, we must steward all of those gifts, constantly, by staying connected to and in partnership with the God who made us. 

And I say that, always, on this podcast, "With the one who made us." We do not go at this alone. We must always stay connected to that vine. 

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When you think of the metaphor that Jesus used of the vine and the branches, we are nothing if we are not connected to that living vine. As we go through our days trying to discern truth. Trying to discern, even in the midst of our day to day lives, "What do I need to do in this situation?"

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"What's the best path here in this parenting challenge?"

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"How am I to discern what's right from wrong, in this work situation?"

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"How am I to discern the best way to guide my child?"

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"How am I to discern the best way to steward this money?"

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"What's right, what's wrong? Where am I veering towards selfishness or toward deception?"

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"How do I align myself with what's right and with what's good?"

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In all of these situations we find ourselves in, it requires us to stay connected to the vine. There are no easy answers to most of those questions. It requires ongoing relationship. And, so, it's in that context of understanding this incredible gift that we have, that we are made in the image of God. We are image bearers; we are co-creators with Christ. 

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We are given the gift of being able to exert agency in our lives, to have a lot of freedom. To proceed with wisdom into our work, into our relationships. All those things are a gift of our free will, of our human autonomy, of what it means to be human. These are all beautiful things, and it's against that backdrop that I want to bring us now to this command that Jesus gives us, in Matthew 16:24, "That if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me."

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< Music >

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The Psalmist in 139:14 says, "I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works, my soul knows it well." So we have this backdrop that while we do have a fallen nature, while we do inherit the sin of Adam and Eve, eating of the fruit, we are also inherently worthy. We are inherently dignified by that state of being made in the image of God. So against that backdrop, now, we turn to this concept of self-denial. 

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So let's start by looking at what Jesus actually said. So Jesus said to deny yourself to follow Him. This comes from Matthew 16:24, and these are Jesus words, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." And then He goes on to say, "If someone wants to save their life, they must lose it. And if anyone loses their life for my sake, they will find it."

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So coming to this idea of context, it's first really important to understand the historical context of this passage. And I really appreciate theologian N.T. Wright and how he unpacks a lot of historical context, especially, in the New Testament. And, so, this is from his book Matthew for Everyone, which is a commentary on the Book of Matthew. But he talks about how Jesus is in the midst, in all of the gospels, of teaching His disciples a completely upside down way. 

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Jesus is really giving a nuanced teaching to the disciples here, where He's turning things upside down. 

Where there's this subtle tendency, and you can imagine if it was you, sometimes, I think about if Jesus were to come back today. In our humanness we'd be like, "Yes, finally, Jesus is going to vindicate me."

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There's a human ego in all of us, that is like, "When our Savior finally comes, when the Messiah finally comes." There's a little part of us, not all of us, but there's a little part of us that's like, "Finally, I'll be vindicated. Finally, Jesus will set me free." And we know what that means, but there are parts of us that see that as, "Maybe I'll get a little bit of vindication, finally, here on Earth." And we see that in a little bit of the disciples, as they were following Jesus. 

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They were a little bit confused about, "What does this mean to follow you?"

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"Does this mean we're, finally, going to get this vindication against our oppressive rulers?"

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"Does this mean that we're, finally, going to get our due? We've suffered for a really long time." And Jesus is always nuancing that in this upside down way. And it comes to a culmination, really, at this point, and following Jesus is actually going to cost you everything. And, yes, that's good news, in the long run, but in the short run, that might feel a lot like a death. 

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This is what N.T. Wrights says, "It's going to be like learning to swim. If you keep your feet on the bottom of the pool, you are never going to work it out. You have to lose your life to find it." And what Wright is saying is, if you're learning how to swim and you're keeping your fingernails there on the edge, or you're dragging your feet on the ground, you're never going to really learn how to swim. You got to take the plunge. You got to go all in and it's going to feel like you're drowning at first. 

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If you remember that feeling, I remember it very well, it feels terrifying. You're going under and, then, suddenly, you start to catch yourself. And, suddenly, you start to find your way, and, then, you're starting to get to that new way of being that you've longed for. 

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And, so, there's this real nuance to what Jesus is saying here, that "Following me might not be exactly what you think it's going to be. In fact, at first, it might feel hard. You might have to give up some things, you might have to change, and change is hard, and you might have to leave behind some of your old coping strategies. And you might have to leave behind some of your old grudges, and you might have to leave behind some of that ego. 

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But I promise you, if you let go, if you surrender, if you let go for that moment, I promise you, you're going to get the true life. The new life that you've been so desperately seeking." And this message is underscored in other parts of Scripture. 

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In John 12:24-25, Jesus talks about this process of dying to yourself like a grain of wheat. And here's the passage, he says, "Listen carefully, unless a grain of wheat is buried in the ground, dead to the world, it is never any more than a grain of wheat." It just stays that grain. "But if it's buried, it sprouts and reproduces itself many times over. In the same way, anyone who holds on to life just as it is destroys that life. But if you let it go, reckless in your love, you'll have it forever, real, and eternal." This is John 12:24-25, the Message version. 

So, similarly, to that learning how to swim, this grain of wheat, if you just hang on to that grain of wheat, it becomes nothing, it's meaningless. But if you let it go and you let it be buried in the ground; and it feels like a death, and it's dark, and it's scary, but that's how that seed actually sprouts and reproduces itself into something even more beautiful. 

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And, so, we need to remember that in light of these passages, denying yourself. This process of setting yourself aside, of letting yourself go, of dying to yourself. It's a process of letting go to those things you are clinging to that are actually keeping you from the person you were really meant to be, to unleashing more of that image of God. That beautiful reflection of God that's inside of you, that's inside that seed that has to crack open, that might feel like a death, in order for you to reveal even more goodness, more light, more beauty into the world around you. 

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Another passage where we see this John 1:11-12, where John says about following Jesus, these are John's words, "But whoever did want Him," meaning Jesus. "Whoever believed He was who He claimed and would do what He said, He made to be their true selves, their child of God, selves." John is saying that when you follow Jesus, believe in Him, enter into a trusting relationship with Him. 

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Where you walk in partnership with Him hand in hand, over time, it's not a static, once-and-done thing. It's a constant, ongoing, relationship, a companionship, a partnership, the best friendship, you will become even more of your true self, the beautiful soul that God made. And we know, from Jesus words, that this process can feel like death at times, like you are losing all that you've known. 

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"Really, Jesus? Really, you're my friend and you want me to walk through this?" Sometimes we don't understand why Jesus walks with us through dark valleys. Sometimes it doesn't feel like He wants what's best of us. But here's the promise; as we die to old ways, and we trust Jesus, and we don't let go of His hand. Even as we plunge ourselves into the depths of whatever it is that we face, we become more of the fierce, light-bearing people that God made us to become. 

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So now I want to get into psychological context. How do we interpret this message of denying ourselves, in light of everything we've just laid out? In light of the different psychological contexts we find ourselves in. And what I mean by that is the different realities of our experience, as humans, because this is a series on the Bible, we're going to be very Bible heavy in this episode. 

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I want to turn to this idea of how Jesus interacted with different types of people, in different psychological contexts. When Jesus walked the Earth, you could say He spent time with three different kinds of people living in three different contexts. The first were those who were suffering from illnesses beyond their control. 

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Now, some of these might have been mental illnesses, some of them were medical illnesses. Some of them were spiritualized, in the sense that they were interpreted at the time as demon possession. Maybe they were demon possession, it might be that they put that name on things that we might describe in psychological terms. Either way, the reality is He interacted with these people suffering in a very unique way. 

He gave the sick and the suffering special care. Jesus didn't blame the suffering nor did He marginalize them. There are so many stories, and I'll list all of these in the show notes. 

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But there's so many instances where Jesus encouraged those who were suffering. Where He helped them and He treated them with respect. In many cases, He healed them. And what's so interesting is that in each of these cases, Jesus asked the person who was sick or who was suffering to take an active part in their process of being healed. "Get up, take your mat, and go home." He says in Mark 2:11.

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"Go back home, your son will live." In John 4:50.

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"Go wash yourself in the pool." John 9:7.

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He empowers them to move out into their lives, He gives them a job to do. He does not blame the sick, nor does He marginalize them. In fact, it's the opposite, He welcomes them and gives them a role. 

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Now, I want you to think about this in the context of what it means to deny yourself. In these cases, when Jesus is approaching those who are sick or suffering in ways that are beyond their control, and of no fault of their own. He is not saying to them, "You need to get over yourselves." He is inviting them in to a process of healing. He's empowering them to take agency in their life.

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Now, the second type of person that Jesus encounters are those who you might describe as sinning, those who are straying. He interacts, frequently, with those who would have been labeled as sinners, in His day. Adulterers, rebels, prostitutes, tax collectors, et cetera. And here's the thing, when the religious leaders criticized Jesus for being friends with these people, Jesus rebuked them, and in fact chose to prioritize his time with folks that the legalists of His day didn't really like.

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It's notably to a woman four times divorced and from Samaria, a place that was not esteemed very highly, whom Jesus honored by disclosing His true identity. He tells the woman at the well, "I am the Messiah." In John 4:25, this is a really big reveal. Jesus befriended sinners, He forgave them, and He also called them to change. "Neither do I condemn them, go now and leave your life of sin." He says in John eight through 11. He empowers them to go out and live a changed life. 

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And, then, lastly, Jesus interacts with those we might describe as sanctimonious, the legalists of His day. These were the folks who were quick to speak out against others, and who thought they had it all together. They had it right. They were following the law, they were moral, they were the ones living by the law. 

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But Jesus took a different approach with these folks. He was actually harsh with them, at times. He accused them of being more concerned about their appearance than their character on the inside. He would say to them, "You clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are full of greed and self-indulgence."

Those who were quick to speak up against others were taken down a peg or two by Jesus. Those who cried out for help, when everyone around despised them, were lifted up. Now, I want you to think about these three different contexts, in light of what it means to deny yourself. Where do you find yourself in these three categories?

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Are you someone who has been hurt?

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Who has been traumatized?

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Who has been cast aside?

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Who has been abused?

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Who has been sidelined?

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Who has been walked on? 

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Do you think it's possible that when Jesus says to deny yourself, it doesn't mean that you should continue to take mistreatment? That you should continue to shove yourself aside? That you should continue to feel shame? 

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What if Jesus invitation for you, and that invitation to self-denial, is to instead get up and let go of those shackles of shame that other people, and the enemy, want to keep you down with, and to instead come alive to the person you really are? If you're someone who finds yourself in that straying category, maybe, you've been struggling with an addiction, with a compulsion, with a sin that has just got you. 

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What if Jesus invitation for you is to deny that behavior, deny that sin, but not continue to beat yourself up? Instead, be free of those chains that bind you, so that you can live into the fullness of who God wants you to become. And if you find yourself in that third category; what if Jesus invitation to you is to set aside that ego, that pride, that false pretense. That you really know what's going on, that you're special to God because you've got it so together?

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What if God's invitation for you is to pry that self-righteousness out from your soul, so that you can live in the humility of knowing that you, too, need Jesus? The way we frame this invitation to self-denial, depends on the specific nature of the circumstances you find yourself in right now. If you're someone who has been denying yourself; so that someone else can abuse, or exploit, or take advantage of you. The invitation to you may well be to deny those parts of you that are telling you that you are not worth more.. 

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If you are someone who's been playing small so that others won't be threatened by you. The invitation for you might be to deny that lie, that God does not want you to come out of hiding and bravely inhabit the fullness of who you are. 

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If you are someone who has been trying to perfect yourself to earn the approval of others. Your invitation to self-denial might be to deny the parts of you that are perfecting yourself to win love. And what might it be like to set those parts of you aside, humbly, before God, and ask Jesus to teach you how to walk in the truth that you are already His beloved.

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What if dying to yourself means dying to the lie that God does not want more for you? 

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What if it means saying, "Yes, I will do whatever it takes to become the truest version of my God-given self?"

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What if dying to yourself means yes to following Jesus, as He seeks to heal the broken parts of you?

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This is what I believe it means to come alive to the truest version of yourself. It means dying to old ways that you've learned to cope and survive. It means dying to toxic patterns of relating to other people, of dying to ways of pleasing someone to get love. Of dying to shaming messages and self-hatred. 

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To dying to your practice of burying your pain, instead of bringing it out into the light, where it can receive healing. It means dying to the ways you've perfected yourself, incessantly, to your own exhaustion. It means dying to the lie that you don't matter and that your life does not have value. 

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This is where I love the way our biblical knowledge comes together with what we've learned in psychology. If you've followed me through The Boundaries for Your Soul series, you know that I believe we are comprised of parts. We are multifaceted beings. And so much of this invitation to deny yourself, may well relate to those parts of you that have learned to cope, or learned to survive, or learned to keep yourself in ways that are no longer serving you.

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This is not a shaming invitation. This is an invitation to let go of old ways so that you can become even more of your true self, of the beautiful person God wants you to become. 

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I want to close today with an exercise and an answer to one of your questions. So the exercise is an exercise in coming alive to yourself. If you've struggled with that voice of self-denial and you didn't really understand what you were supposed to deny, maybe you've been denying the wrong things. Maybe you've been denying your talents. Maybe you've been denying your gifts. Maybe you've been denying your God-given voice, that you actually need to use to speak up on behalf of yourself. 

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So this is an exercise to help you with that. If you have a blank piece of paper, you can divide it into two halves and think of a situation or a relationship that's been hard for you. And I want you to begin to notice the messages in your mind. So on the left side of the paper, I want you to think about what are the die-to-yourself messages that run through your mind? 

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These might show up in any kind of ways. Maybe they're not, literally, "I need to die to myself here." But they're the ways you've tried to get yourself to die to things based on messages you've picked up. So here are some examples; maybe you're someone who always tells yourself things like, "I should always do what they want me to do."

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"I should always meet the needs of other people."

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"I should just forget about that dream."

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"I should just be the bigger person in this situation."

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"I should pretend that what she did was okay to me." And these are always we tell ourselves, "Oh, we're dying to ourselves." When, in fact, we're actually bypassing the work of coming alive to the person God made. 

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We're relying on our old coping tactics of guilt tripping ourselves, and shoulding ourselves, as opposed to letting go of the edge of that pool, and in partnership with Jesus saying "Okay, God, I'm willing to try it a new way." So write those on the left side of that paper, and then on the right side of your paper, I want you to call this your – What-if-I-could messages.

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These are the – What-if-God-wants-me-to messages.

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"What-if-it's-possible messages." And those, for example, might be things like this; "What if I could take more space from this relationship?"

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"What if I could confront this person and ask them to stop treating me this way?" If it was safe to do that.

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"What if I could speak up, and use my voice to speak up against something that I don't like or the way that somebody's treating me?"

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"What if I could say no because I'm overextended, and I just simply don't have what it takes to do what that other person wants me to do?"

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"What if I could say, 'This isn't okay with me. I'm not comfortable being treated this way?'"

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"What if I could walk away from a situation?"

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"What if I could begin to use this gift or this talent that really brings me a lot of joy."

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And then you begin to just look at these two columns. Look at these messages where you're shooting yourself to death. You're trying to die to yourself, but it's not the right kind of death. You're trying to deny all the wrong things. And look at that column in contrast to this other column of, "What if I could do some of these other things?"

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Then ask God, connect to the vine, connect to the God who made you. Connect to the Holy Spirit who lives inside of you, to ask Jesus for guidance. This Trinitarian God and say, "God, show me where I might have been missing it a little bit with this self-denial thing. Have I been denying aspects of myself that you might, actually, be calling me to claim? 

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And if that's the case, show me the things I, actually, need to deny. Maybe it's the part of me that guilt trips me. Maybe it's the part of me that shames me. Maybe it's the voice that I inherited from my parents or from a pastor, that isn't actually your voice. Can you show me, God? Can you show me what's the real thing I need to deny or set aside? 

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Is it these coping tactics?

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Is it this way of playing small? 

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Is it this way of always pleasing others? 

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And what is the invitation you're calling me to come alive to instead?"

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All right, so the point of this exercise is to grow an awareness of the ways in which this message of self-denial has gotten a little bit twisted in your mind. This happens to so many of us, and it's a great tool of the enemy. And as you do this, I want you to consider, is it possible that there's a different way that God wants you to deny aspects of yourself to bring you into even more of the life He wants for you to have.

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To close out, today, I want to address a question that came in, that we really thought was a great question. It's from Abby and she wrote, "In my experience, it seems a lot of church messages still hold a lot of that 'You should try hard to get it right.'

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'You have to win God over.'

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'You have to earn your salvation, even though they will say, we can't earn it.' And this implies I've got to make it to heaven, which has very little to do with our life now." Abby goes on to say, "Have you experienced pushback in your interpretations of salvation having a component of healing. Of backing off of the shoulds, and the rule following, and the shame, and the trying harder, perhaps more common to church models in teaching in our culture today? How do you cope with it?"

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Thanks for asking the question, Abby, it's a great question. The truth is I really surround myself with people who are thinking in these theologically nuanced ways, If you read C.S. Lewis, I still love the Narnia Tales. He paints such a beautiful picture of this embodied way of living out your faith. 

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There are so many people out there who've become my intellectual friends, my heroes of the faith. Who keep me anchored in a more robust theology that, frankly, is more true to historical orthodox Christianity than this very current, very specifically American type of theology, that really focuses in on this, "You've got to get yourself saved."

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And that's, primarily, get yourself saved, get yourself right with God, get your morals right, and then you'll get to heaven. This very narrow lens, which is really just a fraction of the gospel message that we see, especially, here in modern American Christianity. 

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And, so, I would just say that the way I cope with it, number one, is I really try to surround myself with real people, and thinkers, and with teachers who are really open to this holistic orthodox Christian theology. That encompasses the mind, the heart, the body, the spirit.

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Another thing that has really meant a lot to me as I've dug in to the Scriptures is this idea, and I've talked about this on here before, but I want to mention it to you, again, today, is just this idea that this is all steeped in real scholarship, real biblical scholarship. Where we know that this Greek word Sozo sometimes it's Soteria, that is often translated as saved or as salvation in our current biblical translations, can also be translated as healed or wholeness.

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And, so, there are certain places in the Scriptures where you can replace the word saved, what's been translated as saved, into the word healed. For example, in Matthew 9:21, where the woman who has been sick says, "If only I could touch His garment," speaking of Jesus, "I will be saved." Now that's the common translation we see. But you can substitute that word healed in, "If I can only touch His garment, I will be healed."

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And there's a different connotation there, there's not just this connotation, "If I can touch His garment I'll be saved, and I'll get my ticket to heaven." And then what does she do for the rest of her life? That's not what we see in Jesus. We see a man who is wanting relationship with humans, wanting to stay in connection to them. 

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And, so, the connotation of "If I touch His garment, then I will be healed" suggests I will be more whole. I will be able to go out and live this life as a follower of Jesus, as a disciple of Jesus, in my family, in my town, in my community. I will be productive. I will have a role to play. And, again, we see this time and again, when we see how Jesus interacted with the sick, with the suffering, with the sinners, He gave them a role. He said, "Do this."

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"Go there."

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"I have purpose for you."

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"Your life starts now."

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"I'm not just saving you so you can sit around till heaven. You got work to do, good work to do, to continue to bring more of my healing into this world."

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And I think about that verse in Philippians 2:12 that says, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." And if you think about replacing that word salvation there with the word healing or the word wholeness and, again, the connotation of that verse changes. "Work out your healing with fear and trembling."

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"Work out your wholeness with fear and trembling."

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This is what we're called to, this is the work. That we are to work out our process of becoming whole, becoming more healed this side of heaven. We won't arrive there this side of heaven because, number one, it's a complicated process. 

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And, number two, we're living in a broken world. So we're going to bump up against continuing layers of hard times. But we are also, continually, being made new, continually, being made whole. And there's a continuity between the life we get to live now, in this process, all the way through eternity. And every once in a while I'll say this line to people and that is this "We are living in eternity right now. We just haven't died, yet."

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So think about that. We are in eternity right now. We're in it. It's started. Eternity doesn't have a start and a stop, we're in it. It's the waters we're swimming in. We don't understand that in our finite human minds. We haven't crossed over into eternity, but we're actually in it. There is no there and here in eternity, we're living our lives are eternal. We are in that now. 

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And, so, what if every moment that you're with someone, every moment you're alive, is an opportunity to bring a little bit more of that healing that we hope for on the other side of death, on the other side of heaven, into this world now. And I believe there's very clear theological and biblical basis, in orthodox Christianity, for that truth. That's a more accurate depiction of what it means when Jesus has already won the battle. And, yes, we are still in the in between, we're not quite there, but we've already started. 

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The enemy of our souls is still active, but we are already in this process of becoming more whole. And that gets me excited about doing the work of denying those things that hold me back, that keep me from that wholeness that Jesus wants us all to have.

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< Outro >

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Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you'd take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps gets the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday, and remember as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

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This week we're talking all about self-trust-how we develop it, and why it's so crucial to the health of our relationships with other people. We also talk about how trusting God is a process that develops in the context of healthy relationships.

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Here's what we cover:

1. The surprising foundation for trust

2. The role of attachment

3. 3 relationships that contribute to trust

4. What to do if you are too trusting of others

5. A first step toward building self-trust

Do you have questions for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

Want to receive free bonus content? ⁠⁠Sign up for my free weekly email here.

‍

Resources

• Episode 54: Can I Pray My Anxiety Away? A Surprising Approach to the Anxiety Pandemic & How to Walk Yourself & Your Kids Through It
• Episode 23: Am I wounded or am I sinful?
• Episode 51: The 12 Common Thinking Traps, Mind Reading, Mental Filters, and How To Stop Taking Things Personally
• ‍Boundaries For Your Soul by Kimberly Miller and Alison Cook
• ‍The Best of You by Alison Cook
• ‍Jeremiah 17:9
• ‍Jeremiah 31:33
• ‍John 14:16-17
• ‍Ezekiel 36:26
• ‍John 8:32
• ‍Jeremiah 31:33
• ‍Resources for support

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Listen & subscribe to Wear We Are!
• Visit hiyahealth.com/BESTOFYOU and get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults.
• Visit christiankitchenscoffee.com and use code bestofyou for a 10% discount on your first order!

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

‍While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I'm so glad you're here for this series that we're doing – What Does the Bible Really Say? Where we're covering some of these hard questions. Where there's been some misunderstanding or some misconstrued messages that aren't really that helpful to us, as we learn to navigate what it means to be a fully embodied human, an image-bearing human. 

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People who bear the image of God, who are given a life to live. We have a lot of work to do to engage in the process of healing, engage in the process of becoming a whole person this side of heaven. And confronting some of these church messages that have encouraged us to bypass the work of becoming more fully the people that God made. And last week we talked about – "Can I pray my anxiety away?" We talked about how that idea of either trying to bypass anxiety and just pray it away or, frankly, just shutting anxiety down with medication. 

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Although medication, certainly, can be, incredibly, helpful in treating certain forms of anxiety. That neither of those really gets at this reality, that we all will deal with anxiety from time to time. Some of us will deal with it more than others. Some of us will deal with it in specific ways that need care from clinicians, from therapists, from psychiatrists.

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Some of us will deal with it as it relates to situational events or traumatic events. Regardless, we will all deal with anxiety. And as Curtis Chang talked about, in episode 54, we have to find a way through anxiety. And we walk through anxiety as we, simultaneously, understand the hope that coexist side by side with anxiety. And, so, often we need other people to help us through that process.

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We are not disembodied souls who live in isolation, who live in our own respective silos. We are created to live as autonomous beings who are, simultaneously, in connection with other human beings. With other God-created beings. We need each other and, especially, when we're dealing with something like anxiety, we need to be embodied. We need to move into our own bodies, and we need to be attuned to, through the presence of loving others, of other bodies that show up in an embodied way to help hold some of that anxiety with us. 

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This is true for shame; we don't heal shame in isolation. When we experience shame we need the presence of embodied others to help us reduce the impact of shame. Remove it from our nervous systems. There are so many ways in which these various things that we struggle with as humans who live in a broken world. Where there is going to be suffering, where there is going to be hard times. 

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Where we have to begin this process of naming what is happening without shame and walking through it instead of bypassing it or spiritualizing it and say, "Hey, I can just pray this away." Which deprives us of the opportunity of seeking out deeper intimacy, deeper connections with other fellow sufferers, fellow humans, who buy their embodied presence. 

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When we name something, when we are able to say to a spouse, to a friend, to a therapist, to a pastor, to a few trusted people, "Hey, I need to name that this is what's happening inside of me, I'm dealing with anxiety. I don't need you to pray it a way. But my naming it with you and in the presence of your loving empathy, your loving compassion. The fact that you love me and are with me in this, as I walk through it, is what helps me suffer a little bit less. It's what helps me suffer this a little bit better, a little bit more lightly."

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This is what I want you to understand through this series with some of these hard questions. We're not saying that we don't need spiritual resources. We're not saying we don't need God. We're not saying we don't need other people. We're saying there's a nuanced approach, a more holistic, embodied approach, to how we deal with these challenges. 

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So today we're going to tackle this topic of can I really trust myself?

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Should I trust myself? 

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And if I should trust myself, how do I begin to trust myself? 

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What if I don't trust myself? Because, in fact, I have led myself into relationships, into situations, into decisions, that haven't proven out very well for me, number one. And, number two, maybe, I've been taught that I shouldn't trust myself. That my heart is deceitful and wicked, and I actually shouldn't listen to myself. I shouldn't listen to my own instincts, to my own wisdom, that I can't trust myself at all. How do I make sense of this? That's what we're going to try to piece through, today.

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So the first thing I want to point out is there are two extremes in this conversation. Many of us, not all of us, but many of us if you grew up in any church environment or church culture. 

You may have been taught, explicitly, that you can't trust yourself. That you shouldn't trust yourself, and a lot of times that is based on a passage from Jeremiah 17:9. Where Jeremiah says, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure." And I talk about this specific passage in both Boundaries for Your Soul, Kim and I talk about it, and I talk about it in The Best of You. 

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But I want you to bear in mind, right at the top of this episode, that while Jeremiah warned against the human heart. That it can be deceitful, that it can be, desperately, wicked. This is the very same prophet who just a few chapters later, in Jeremiah 31, prophesies about the coming of the Holy Spirit and he says, "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts."

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So the very cure for the heart being fallen, missing the mark, being broken, whatever word you want to use. We talk about this back in episode 23, where I talked about "Am I wounded or am I sinful?" And the many nuances of what it means to be a human being who lives in a fallen state. Where we are imperfect, we miss the mark, our hearts do lead us astray. We don't have the fullness, the completeness, of what it means to ascertain reality and discern it in a, perfectly, whole way.

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We are limited. We miss things, all the time. Our minds do play tricks on us. Again, we talked about this in episode 51 on all the thinking traps that we fall into. That our minds are capable of tricking us and playing tricks on us. Our emotions, while valid, don't always give us the most objective take on what's happening in front of us. 

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They're informed by our prior experiences. There are all these filters that we've inherited, that we've learned to put up, for whatever reason, that cause us to perceive reality in inaccurate ways. This is just part of what it means to be human.

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So Jeremiah is not wrong, that we cannot completely trust our heart, our mind, our bodies. There are ways in which they're going to misinterpret data, and a couple of other things are true. Two things can be true at the same time. Jeremiah is saying that through the life, the death, and the resurrection of Jesus, we gain access to the Spirit of God. What prior to Christ was external, we could only connect to God through the external law, suddenly, becomes internalized.

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We receive the Holy Spirit. John 14 talks about the Holy Spirit coming to live within us. Jesus says, "I will ask the Father and He will give you another helper to be with you forever, the Spirit of truth. You know Him for He dwells with you and will be in you. That's from John 14:16-17.

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So the Spirit comes to dwell in the hearts of all those who believe in God. God responds to our human brokenness by transforming our souls from the inside out. And Ezekiel underscores this idea, Ezekiel 36:26, where he says, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you. I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh."

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And, so, there's all this nuance around this one verse that gets tossed around, all the time, as a way to tell us we shouldn't trust ourselves. It's so much more complex than that, and that's what I want to try to tease out a little bit with you today.  

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< Music >

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So, number one, what we take from the scriptural basis is when you have the Holy Spirit inside of you, you have access to truth, there is a truth compass. There is a truth agent inside of you, "The truth shall set you free." If you think about that, that's really powerful. There's a way where you can begin to align yourself with the truth.

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The truth about yourself, the truth about God, and the truth about the world around you. This is not a one-and-done thing, and this is where we get tripped up. We think, "Well, if you're saved, you have the Holy Spirit, you're all set. You're good to go."

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This is not the case we now have access to the spirit of truth, inside of us. We can ascertain the truth. We can discern the truth. But this is a process we will engage for every single minute of every single day for the rest of our lives. 

There are a couple of reasons for that. First of all, we're complicated beings. God is complex, other people are complex. So this is a journey of going deeper and deeper into what is true.

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"What is true about me, God?"

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"What do I need to know about myself?" That's a whole lifetime and that's, again, what I always say, "Life is never boring when you're living in partnership with God's Spirit. "There's nothing I have to fear. God, help me, throughout the days of my life, help me understand more and more about myself, about how you made me. 

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About how I function in the world, about where I'm wounded and I still need to be healed. About where I have some really cool gifts that I still need to develop. About what's going on in front of me right now." That's a journey that we will be on for the rest of our lives. 

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Same is true about getting to know God and learning what's true about God. It's not a one-and-done thing. It's like, "Man, the more I get to know God, the more I'm like, 'Wow, where's a whole lot more to know. There's an infinite amount of things to know.'" 

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This idea of being a truth seeker, one who aligns one's life to the truth of who I am, of who God is, and, then, you add in the variable of other people. Learning to discern and understand the truth of who these people are in your life, that you love. Think about your spouse, your kids, your friends, your family, people that are hard for you, trying to get out what is the truth. 

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What is going on in this situation? 

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How do I understand this person? And if you've been married for a long time, you will understand what I'm saying here. You can live with somebody a really long time and know them really well, and at a certain point and be like, "Oh, my gosh, I cannot believe I'm just understanding this about you." 

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And that may come to you as they start to heal more and more layers of them open up. Or it may come as you start to get a name for something you didn't realize. It's like a giant puzzle and suddenly a piece of that puzzle comes in and you realize, "Oh, my gosh, this explains so much."

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I see this all the time with people that I work with. Where suddenly folks who have been living together a long time, and operating under the assumption that someone maybe has a little bit of a temper or has an anger problem. And, then, suddenly, it's revealed, "Oh, my gosh, this person has been dealing with an undiagnosed learning disorder. A different learning style."

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Maybe somebody finds out they have a hidden addiction they'd never put their fingers on. Or that somebody has an unnamed trauma, that's never been brought to the surface. And, suddenly, you start to re-filter the story of your life with that person, through that different lens, and you start to see a fuller picture. 

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So this is what I mean by when the spirit of truth comes to live within us. We are able to discern what is true about ourselves, about God, and about the world around us. 

And while that is a process, that is not a once-and-done thing. It's not an all of a sudden "I'm good to go." That is not how it works. It's a process of ever deepening circles of becoming more and more holy, fully inhabiting the truth of who I am, and as we do that we begin to trust ourselves.

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And as we do that, we begin to trust ourselves. And as we do that, suddenly, we're starting to trust that we know how to discern reality. We know how to discern falsehood and deceptions in ourselves. We learn how to discern where we've been covering up something that we don't want to face.

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We learn how to discern where we haven't been living out of that homeostasis. Out of that calm nervous system place. Where we've been living out of a fight/flight response or we've been living out of a coping strategy. Or we've been living out of an addiction and, suddenly, we're able to discern that. We're able to name that, we're able to tell ourselves the truth about what's happening inside our own bodies, inside our own souls. 

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We start to trust ourselves. We start to say, "Man, I get it. I know when something is off and I've got the skills to hunt that down, to figure that out. To find out what it is. What is at the root of what's not right in my soul. Something's not right in my soul. There's something that's going on. I'm acting in ways I don't understand, Lord, help me get to the root of that." 

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We start to trust ourselves. And guess what the more we do that work inside of ourselves, the more we become so discerning when it comes to other people. The more we trust ourselves when cues go off in our body that say "Something isn't right there."

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"I don't think they're seeing this correctly."

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"I don't think their accusation of me is fair."

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"I don't think that their treatment of me is about me, I think, it's about them."

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"I think there's a toxicity in them that they're trying to put onto me, and I don't think it's about me."

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We start to trust ourselves in our discernment. Or, conversely, we start to say, "I notice that that person always shows up for me. Whatever they say to me, there's something in it that brings life to me. There's something in it that always helps me. It's not that they're perfect, but that helps me feel a little clearer, a little more true, a little closer to God. A little bit more grounded in myself. I think that is someone I can trust. We start to trust our instincts, our intuition, the cues our body sends us about other people. 

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As we've done this work of pealing back the layers of wounds, of pride, of deception, of all the things that we have in our own souls, and we learn to trust ourselves to do the work. To, first and foremost, tell ourselves the truth about ourselves. Both in our glory and what is good, and beautiful, and magnificent about us, and in those areas where we are missing the mark.

Where we are deceiving ourselves. Where we are wanting to hide something out of shame that we do not want anyone to know.

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The more we do that work, and we tell ourselves the truth about ourselves, the more we trust ourselves. When we start to discern and notice the truth about other people, these things all go together.

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So the bottom line of all of that is this, we absolutely have to learn to trust ourselves. And it starts with having enough safety in your body through the power of the Holy Spirit. Through a lived sense, at least, a glimmer of a lived sense that you are beloved of God. We have to have that safety first, and if you think about a baby, this all gets back to attachment. 

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A baby first needs to feel that safety, that soothing of being securely attached to a parent, to a caregiver. And in the context of that safety, that baby begins to explore the world around her. And through that exploration, she bumps up against the reality of her own limits, of the limits of other people. But that happens in the context of secure attachment of safety. 

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And, so, as we get glimmers and glimpses of safety through the power of the Holy Spirit. Through a connection to God, the one who loves us. And as we grow in getting glimmers and glimpses of safety. As we connect to a few other people, we are able to embark on this work of becoming safe for ourselves. Which means learning to see ourselves as we really are in our strengths, in our beauty, and in some of our blind spots, and through that process we begin to trust ourselves. 

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Because we trust ourselves that we can see what's true about ourselves. Even if it means seeing that what's true about ourselves in this moment is, "Oh, my gosh, I've got some wounds there, and because of those wounds I don't trust people very much. Or because of those wounds there, my nervous system, sometimes, gets activated and tells me not to trust things that I think might be trustworthy."

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So hear what I'm saying here, this is very nuanced. That as we experience a tiny bit of safety with God, with other people, we start to experience enough safety, in ourselves, that we can trust ourselves to name what is, actually, happening. Even if that first step of trust is to name, "I don't know how to trust myself very well." 

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It's a three-part process, we need all three of these and they go together. You learn to trust yourself through developing, trusting relationships with God and with other people. You learn to trust others, through developing a trusting relationship with yourself and with God. And you learn to trust God through developing a trusting relationship with yourself and with others. It's very trinitarian. We need all three to really come up with a whole picture of what it means to feel safe. 

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These two words are closely linked. We need a critical mass of safety. Enough safety to venture a risk of trust. "There's enough safety here that I'm going to risk a little bit of trust in this other person. 

Which means I'm going to risk trusting myself to course-correct if I detect something untrustworthy." So learning to trust ourselves is a process. It's a process that involves bringing God in and bringing other people in.

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So I want to pause here and ask you a question, as you're listening. Which one of these relationships is harder for you to trust?

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Is it hardest for you to trust yourself? 

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Is it hardest for you to trust others? 

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Or is it hardest for you to trust God? 

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And think about that, for a second, because it's an important cue for where you want to start on your journey to healing. If you are someone who struggles to trust God, and you want to love God, you believe in God. But maybe parts of you are just like, "I don't trust God."

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"I've been disappointed by God."

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"'ve been hurt by God."

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"My life has been really hard."

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"There is a lot of brokenness in my life and God hasn't really come through for me. He hasn't really picked up the pieces, and I don't know if I do trust God, anymore."

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Name that, just name that. Get curious about it. There's no shame in that. You may need to learn to rebuild trust in God through experiencing safety with other people. Through embodied image of God bearers. 

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So, for example, there's a vignette that I tell in chapter 10 of The Best of You. About a woman who was really struggling to trust God, but she experienced safety in a few other people. And I say this line in the book, which is "Glimpses of love and safety in other people give you glimpses of what God is like."

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So if you're somebody who struggles because the way that God was represented to you is really crummy, or you're really mad at God. As you get glimpses of goodness, of beauty, of love, of what it feels like; to be seen, to be known, to be understood in other humans, you are getting a glimpse of what God is like. And that may be hard for you to make that leap, but I just want to name that. As we learn to trust in our relationships with other people, we learn to repair trust in our relationship with God.

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Now if you answer that question saying, "I trust God quite a bit, I trust myself quite a bit, but I do not trust other people." What I would say to you is are you really, finally, attuning to your own body. Because while I will say and agree that, yes, a lot of people will let you down. 

A lot of people will betray you. What's true is that we are able to trust others to the degree at which we are able to trust ourselves. So I think those two types of trust are, intimately, linked. If you've had experiences that have led you to believe that others aren't trustworthy, that makes a lot of sense. It makes sense that you are cautious to trust. But as you are looking at that, part of the solution to that is learning to trust this inner compass that God has given you. 

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Now, don't mishear me, I'm not saying you should just learn to trust other people. What I'm saying is you will learn to discern trustworthiness in others. As you trust yourself to take small, brave, steps to test your relationships with others. 

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There's a difference between saying, "I don't trust other people." 

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And saying, "I take very cautious steps, a very measured approach, to discerning who I will and won't let into my life." I really pay attention to my nervous system. I really pay attention to red flags. I pay attention to yellow flags. 

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In fact, yellow flags, to me, I treat as red flags. But I will tell you that a few people have made it through all of my filters to where I will say that person is trustworthy. And where I've got to grow is maybe that gray area of folks who aren't, necessarily, toxic and aren't, necessarily, harmful, but maybe I need to learn to trust them a little bit. Which means I have to learn to trust myself to set those boundaries.

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It all comes back to, "Do I trust myself to enter into this relationship far enough to the point where if there's something that isn't safe or something that doesn't feel right, even if it's not toxic. That I will do what I need to do to take care of myself. That still goes back to the ability to trust yourself to self-regulate in that situation.

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Now, if you are someone who says, "I tend to trust other people but I don't trust myself." And I would put myself in this category. Early on I trusted God pretty easily, I'm pretty trusting of others. But I didn't know how to trust myself to pull back when I needed to pull back. 

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So I would outsource my trust and just say, "Well, I just have to assume that other people are trustworthy because I don't know how to protect myself. And I'm going to hope to get lucky that other people, for the most part, have my best interests at heart." 

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Either way, whether you trust other people too easily or whether you aren't trusting enough. The truth is the solution goes all the way back to inside your own body, your own soul, in partnership with the Holy Spirit. 

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In the first case, if you are not trusting of others, you've been hurt. You do not think people have your best interests at heart. You are wary of other people, and that has kept you from having close relationships. The solution to that is how do you work with yourself, work with a therapist, partner with God, to take small, brave, steps to test new relationships and that has to start within you. That has to start by establishing trusting norms within you. 

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That has to start with you saying, "I need to open up a little bit more to some girlfriends, to a man, to another human, and that's terrifying to me because I don't trust people. So what I'm going to have to do is work a process of taking small, strategic, brave, steps to putting out a little bit of vulnerability, not the whole thing a little bit of bait."

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I used to use this metaphor, it's like you put a little bit of bread crumbs out and see if that person picks up that breadcrumb. What do you need to see in that other person, that will allow you to stay with them just a little bit. Is it that you need the other person to go first, on their vulnerability? To put their own little breadcrumb out, and then you're like, "Okay, I'll meet you there."

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Then maybe next time you share a breadcrumb. You say, "I'll share a little breadcrumb because I want to meet them."

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And then you test it can they take that?

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Can they meet you there?

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Can they join you? 

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Can they hear you or is it going to be all about them? Or are they going to do something that scares you off? You put a little bit of breadcrumb out and see how they handle that, and then you discern your next step. But all of that means you have to be inhabiting your own body to both take the risk to put yourself out there, in a small strategic way. Maybe you agree to go to coffee; you go to the coffee, you don't commit to anything beyond that, and you commit to yourself that after that coffee you're going to check in with yourself. "How did that feel?"

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"Did that feel like someone who was interested in me?"

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"Do I want to have a second coffee with that person?"

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"Did they only talk about themselves or did they ask me a question?" And then maybe you have that second coffee, and this one you maybe share something a little more vulnerable, not too vulnerable, but a little more vulnerable, and you see how they handle it. And maybe you challenge yourself to say a no to set a boundary, early on. 

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Because you want to see is this someone who, if I show up in my authentic self, they receive me there, they meet me there, and they honor that and they respect me. Or is this someone when I invite them to do something I like to do, and I take a risk, and don't just only do the things they want to do, can they meet me there?

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Can we walk into this, strategically, giving them a shot to see if they can prove themselves trustworthy? That requires you to trust yourself first to say, "I trust myself, that if I see a red or yellow flag, I'm going to course-correct." And if this is new to you, do this with the support of a trained professional who has been taught how to be a trustworthy place. That's really what trained therapists are. 

Those in these expert roles have been trained to, at the very least, be trustworthy people. Where you can anchor yourself in that relationship as you take steps to try to learn how to trust other people.

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Now, if you are someone who is too trusting of other people, you are also disconnected from your own self. Both of those situations require you to reconnect into your own God-given self. So if you're too trusting, you've outsourced your trust. You're just blindly hoping others have your best interests at heart, and you're likely, at times, being taken advantage of. 

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You're likely, at times, feeling walked on, feeling like a doormat. Feeling like, "Wait a minute, actually, they're not having my best interests at heart. Maybe they're a really good person, but like anybody, they're taking more of me than I have to give because I'm not putting the boundaries on it." 

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And, so, you have to, again, do the work of going inside yourself, inside your own body. Paying attention to the cues your body is sending you and saying, "Hey, wait a minute, why is it hard for me in this situation with this person that I trust to insert my own voice." 

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To say "I do trust this person and also they are fallible, they are a human. They will miss something about me. They will misunderstand something about me. They will get busy in their own lives and neglect me, potentially." I can trust myself that when I notice that and that hurts. That I can learn speak up for myself and say, "Hey, what's happening here?"

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I can put a name to that and say, "Hey, even though I trust this person, something is going on in this situation that I don't like, that's hurting me." Or if you trust other people too much with your own decisions. You may wind up taking advice that later you realize, "I don't think that was the best advice. I actually think I should have trusted my own instinct there. 

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That in that situation, here's, actually, what I needed to do." And the first step, in beginning to heal from that is to name it and be really honest with yourself, "You know, in that situation, I know that friend had my best interests at heart. I know they wanted to care but that was not the best advice. That was not the advice I needed to take. I knew I needed to do that differently." I have to name that. 

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I've got to figure out how to do that differently next time. And you have to notice what did that feel like in my body, in that moment, when I had this feeling inside of, "Hmm, I get what you're saying, but I don't think that's the right direction."

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So you have to go down a path of inquiry, of doing that detective work of, at the very front end of that, noticing "What's happening inside my body?"

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"Am I just disassociating or am I aware that inside when they're giving me that advice, I am uncomfortable, or I'm not sure, or I'm just so quick to want to follow it. What is that about? Should I stop, for a minute, and take a few days and really think about whether I should follow that advice?" It starts with scaling back that impulse to only go to other people. To only look at other people's opinions, that external locus of control. Putting all of your discernment outside of you onto other people. 

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What would it feel like to first go internally and say, "What do I think is needed in this situation?" And if that's really hard for you to do, that's a really important area for you to explore. And what if I first say, "What do I want to do in this situation?" And, again, if that's uncomfortable for you, that would be an area for you to explore with a therapist. What happened there? 

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Where is that disconnect? Where you don't feel attuned to your own thoughts, to your own discernment, to your own nervous system, to your own wisdom. That it feels uncomfortable for you to discern and consider your own opinion, your own thinking, about the way you should proceed.

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So all of this goes back to learning to attune to your own inner landscape. Whether you are someone who wants to learn how to trust other people more, or whether you are someone who actually is very curious about the fact that it's hard for you to trust yourself at all. And that you've outsourced your trust too much, in such a way that is starting to impact your relationships, your decision making, and your sense of autonomy in your own life.

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Here are some steps to practice, regardless of which category you find yourself in. Number one is simply the practice of self-awareness. You have to start to notice your own inner landscape. When faced with any decision. When faced with any relationship challenge, "What do I feel in my body as it relates to this person?"

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"What do my emotions suggest about the situation? Are they mostly negative? Are they ambivalent? Am I conflicted? Am I doubting myself?" Just start there. Just start naming that, "I'm really ambivalent, I'm really conflicted. 

I can't figure this out, the reason I want to go to this other person is I just have so many conflicting thoughts and feelings about it." Naming that is a first step towards self-awareness. You're attuning to what's happening inside of your body. 

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Now, a really good friend or a therapist will help you begin to piece apart those conflicting thoughts and feelings, but that's a start. What does my nervous system feel? 

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"Where is there tension in my body, as I consider this situation?" You don't have to solve it, at this point, but become more aware of yourself. Self-awareness is a foundation for building trust in yourself. 

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Number two is to connect to the Holy Spirit within you in that process. We talk about this all through in both Boundaries for Your Soul and The Best of You. That the Holy Spirit lives inside of you, not just in other people around you. And, so, as you begin to become aware of your own confusion. The chaos, maybe, that you feel inside, the self-doubt that you feel inside. 

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Maybe even anxiety that you feel about making a decision about something and you just, desperately, want someone else to tell you what to do, or you are stuck because you can't trust anybody else. You actually wish you could bounce it off somebody. Whatever it is, you begin to go, "Lord, here's what's so interesting, I'm really anxious about this. Can you help me understand that?" And you begin to build trust with the anxious part of you.

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Now, again, I understand sometimes you got to make decisions in life and you may still have to go, "I've got to talk to somebody else about it." And that's fine, but you are, at least, taking a step toward. That my first go-to is I cannot solve this problem, I feel so anxious about it. It just stirs up chaos in my mind. I'm going to name that and then I'm going to invite God into that.

"God, help me understand that part of me."

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Now, when we are in a state of fight/flight, when we are stressed about something, that's often when our nervous system is activated. We sometimes need to get ourselves into a calmer body state. Where we feel calm. Where we feel that sense of homeostasis. Where our nervous system isn't activated and when we're in that place, in our bodies, of calm. 

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And, so, well, how you get there is you begin to notice. "When I'm in nature."

"When I'm jogging."

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"When I'm listening to music."

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"When I have a minute of calm near a beautiful place, in the morning, I notice my body is calmer." That's when you're more in a place of trusting yourself. You're in tune with the best of yourself, with your calm, clear, creative self. Begin to notice what that feels like. What does that feel like? 

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When do you feel that? 

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And when you're in that place, what might that feel like if you were to approach another human, or a problem that you face, from that state of calm. Can you begin to bring that sense of calm that you feel with you into a conversation, with another person or into a situation you have to show up for. 

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So often we know how to find that calm apart from other people. We go into our prayer closet, we calm our nervous system, we get right with God, we feel clear. And then we open the door, walk out of the closet, leave all that calm there, and then go back into the business of just differing, and defaulting, and deflecting to everybody around us. So we get that minute of calm, and then we just walk out and go back to our old coping tactics. 

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What would it be like to take that you, that in the privacy of that spacious place, is where you feel that calm, that Holy Spirit presence, and open the door and walk into that conversation with that other person deeply connected to your own sense of self. 

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Practice that, imagine that. What would that feel like to center yourself in yourself, and then practice going to the breakfast table and saying hi to your kids, saying hi to your spouse, without leaving yourself behind, this is the goal. This is the goal to carry that you with you into your relationships with other people. Not to stop moving into relationship with other people, but also not to leave yourself out of that equation.

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This is what it means to begin to bring a trusting, safe, embodied, relationship with yourself into every interaction you have throughout the rest of your day. It's an amazing way to live, and I believe it's actually the embodied, trusting, dynamic relationship God longs for us to have with ourselves, with others, and with the God who made us.

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< Outro >

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Alison: Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you'd take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

Today's conversation is pure fire! We're talking all things anxiety with Curtis Chang, author of a brand new book, The Anxiety Opportunity. This is such a fresh take on anxiety, unlike anything you've heard at church or in the secular culture. We also touch on the problem of how most of us have been taught to view heaven, and how recasting that vision has everything to do with anxiety. If you've struggled with anxiety or if you have kids who struggle with anxiety, please do not miss this episode.

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Here's what we cover:

1. The problem with the "prayer" or "pill" approach to anxiety

2. The anxiety pandemic

3. The most important thing we can do to help our anxious kids

4. Did Jesus experience anxiety?

5. Curtis's experience with crippling anxiety

6. The surprising discovery he made in therapy

7. Why heaven is not what you think it is & how that changes everything

Do you have questions for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

Want to receive free bonus content? ⁠⁠Sign up for my free weekly email here.

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Resources

• ‍The Anxiety Opportunity by Curtis Chang
• ‍Good Faith Podcast with David French and Curtis Chang
• ‍Phillippians 4:6"If you can name it, you can tame it." -Dan Siegel
• ‍Resources for support

‍

Related Episodes:

• ‍Boundaries For Your Soul Series
• Episode 41: Boundaries With Fear And Anxiety—How to Calm the Chaos Within and the Joy of Internal Boundaries

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Please visit christianapp.org/mentalhealthtsf to donate today!
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Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik‍

‍While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast. I am so glad you're here. We have a brand new series we are starting today called What Does the Bible Really Say? We're going to hit on just some of those hot topic, hot button, issues in this series. Especially as it relates to the questions that we have about how we're supposed to live our lives here on Earth.

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So psychology focuses so much on the who we are now. Becoming a better version of yourself. Living life to its fullest, healing, painful patterns, presumably so that we can have a better quality life here on Earth. So what does the Bible really say about how we are supposed to approach this life we've been given to live? And I'm super excited because guess what? This is the start of season two of The Best of You podcast. I cannot believe it, but this podcast launched one year ago. We've put out 53 episodes of the podcast. 

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And, so, as we start episode 54 and a brand new season, a brand new year of The Best of You podcast, we are going to dive into what does the Bible really say about how we are to live this "One wild and precious life" that we've been given to live. To quote the wonderful Mary Oliver.

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So today's guest, we're going to hit the ground running with a question I hear all the time because so many of you have been taught this, "Can I pray my anxiety away?" This is a question I get so much, and it really leads to a larger question of these things that are hard. Things like anxiety or depression, just things that we struggle with, are we supposed to be able to pray them away? 

Is that really what the Bible teaches us about how we're supposed to deal with our challenges, with our anxieties? Everybody experiences anxiety, and is that really the best approach to it? To just pray for God to take it away? Well, to help me answer this question, I've asked Curtis Chang to talk about his experience with anxiety. 

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I'm really excited to introduce you to Curtis, and I try to only invite guests, on this podcast, who are people I have some acquaintance with in real life. They're either personal friends of mine or I know them through friends of friends, or I have a deep acquaintance with their work. I want to talk to these folks. These are folks whose work I've benefited from, who I've learned from, who I've gotten to know in my real life. And, so, with that being said, let me introduce you to Curtis Chang. 

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< Music >

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So I'm so excited to introduce you guys, today, to Curtis Chang. Curtis and I have a ton of friends in common. We just met each other, but when we started to talk, we realized we're part of this very small world. Were you on staff with university?

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Curtis: I was. I was on staff in the late '90s at university in Boston.

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Alison: And most of my friends in Boston have, at some point, either been on staff with university or still on staff with university at Harvard or went to Harvard, or whatever. And, so, we pretty much know everybody in common, which was really fun, but we'd never met each other. So Curtis Chang is a theologian and a consulting faculty member of Duke Divinity School. He's a senior fellow at Fuller Theological Seminary. 

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Curtis has written for the New York Times and Christianity Today. He's appeared on CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC, PBS, and NPR. He's pretty much been everywhere. He's the co-host of an amazing podcast I have just come to really value, it's called The Good Faith podcast. He co-hosts it with his friend, from time to time, David French, who's a columnist for The New York Times. 

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Curtis's ministry speaking and writing are fueled by a passion to help Christians recognize the surprising authority and relevance of Jesus for the parts of our life that are often left to the secular world. And Curtis has written a wonderful new book; I've read a lot of books on anxiety, Christian books on anxiety, secular books on anxiety. And I said this to Curtis, I said, "This is one of the first books I've read in a really long time that stunned me."

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Curtis: Listeners don't see the fact that you've got a bookshelf, stacked full of books behind you that prove that this is indeed true.

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Alison: Yes, I don't want to spoil it because we'll get to it toward the end, but you brought in one of my favorite theologians, which is N. T. Wright. But you brought it together with anxiety in a way I'd never thought about it, and I had an immediate epiphany. I was actually on a plane and it was so striking to me. It's a really good book, it's called The Anxiety Opportunity, and I cannot wait to have this conversation with you, Curtis. Thank you for being here on the podcast, today.

Curtis: Oh, it's a pleasure to be talking with you and talking about really substantive matters. In addition to dropping names of people we know. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation as well, thank you.

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Alison: Oh, my gosh, I want to dive in to the deep end with you, personally, because your experience of anxiety really flows out of your personal life. And you start the book off talking about your experience with anxiety as a young boy, and it was just so compelling. I think any parent reading that, their heart is just being so tugged toward this very vivid description of what anxiety was like for you. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

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Curtis: Yes, and it's important to recognize that we've always lived with anxiety. We certainly are living with higher rates of anxiety. I think, objectively, all the studies show that anxiety rates have gone up substantially, especially, for our teen. 

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So if you're a parent, odds are you have a child, a teen, in your family that is suffering from anxiety. And you know many other families with kids who are suffering from anxiety/depression. In my church, I don't know a single family that hasn't been touched by this. So we are living in a pandemic, a mental health pandemic of anxiety, that's for sure. 

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But it's also important to recognize that part of the rise has been just the rise of recognition of existing anxiety that's always been there. So, objectively, it's not we're just relabeling it, there's objective rise in anxiety. 

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But it's also helpful to recognize "Wait, we've always lived with that. We just didn't have, necessarily, the language or the tools to recognize the anxiety that was there, and that was certainly true for me growing up. Immigrant, part of an immigrant family, I immigrated when I was three. And in the Chinese-American culture, mental health is just not something that we have categories or tools to make easy sense of. 

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And, so, it just wasn't a category to be able to say I was anxious. And the story that I open the book up with was realizing that I grew up with a pervasive sense of anxiety stemming from the fact that I was a latchkey kid. 

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So starting at age eight, I was walked home from school and came home to an empty house by myself. I was the first kid to get home, and there was a key under the mat that I would use to let myself in. And now we think about letting an eight-year-old come home to an empty house, we think that's ridiculous, that's bizarre, but that was normal for me, growing up. 

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But it was, actually, looking back, I realized how much this was a deeply anxious experience for me, and both coming home to an empty house, thinking that perhaps the creak in the attic was some burglar that had broken in. And, so, I'd race outside when I'd hear a creaky sound in the house and try to be outside, so I couldn't be in the house alone. And then really afraid of that my parents wouldn't come home and that they wouldn't make it home alive. That was a childhood anxiety I had. 

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And, so, I developed all sorts of coping mechanisms to deal with it. Even though I was not ever able to name that experience as an anxiety. Certainly, and I tell the story in the book, certainly, I wasn't able to name it for my parents, and, I think, even if I did they wouldn't have any way to make sense of it. 

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And, so, that led to a bittersweet experience of my childhood, that I won't share the story of it in detail. But what it's trying to illustrate is, actually, even if you're a parent of an anxious child, listening to this right now. One of the steps that I talk about in my book that's helpful to recognize is to recognize your own anxiety, both, currently but also even in your past. As a way of actually making sense of it and establishing some sense of understanding of your anxious children.

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Alison: Yes, it was interesting reading that section, Curtis. We're, probably, roughly, the same age because all of the era things that you point to, I was like, "Oh, yes, I relate to all of those." The latchkey kid was normal. I talk about trauma, you didn't use this word, and I always want to not throw that word around lightly. But even if we think about these small t traumas as unwitnessed pain. You were alone in that experience without there being a name to it. 

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And, so, it lives in your body a little bit and we develop shame around that. Which you get into in the book, that was my experience, too. It's like, "What is wrong with me that I can't, literally, be in a house by myself after dark when I should be old enough to be in a house? We start to develop a shame narrative, and you talk about this. As this anxiety continues to go unnamed, to maybe even go unwitnessed to yourself, to others, it festers a little bit till you reached a breaking point, as a pastor, and tell us a little bit about that.

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Curtis: Yes, so one of the reasons I wrote this book was to reframe anxiety for Christians. Because the dominant narrative for anxiety for Christians is that it is a problem that we are supposed to make go away, and we can make it go away usually in one of two ways. 

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So in some churches, we're supposed to pray anxiety away and in other churches, to use a label for it, we are supposed to pill anxiety away. So we either use spiritual means to make anxiety go away, or we outsource it to secular mental health for either medication or therapy to make it go away. Which, by the way, I am a fan of medication and therapy, I think, it's a helpful tool. 

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But even in the secular mental health usage of those tools, the dominant narrative and understanding of anxiety, still, it is a problem we make go away, either through prayer or pills, again, using as a stereotype. And, so, for me, as a pastor, this is after I've become a young adult and now a growing and maturing adult, and I become a senior pastor of a fairly large church here in California. 

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And I take over the church from the founding pastor, which is, I discovered, is a very stressful position to be in. And the church ended up struggling, as many churches do, in that transition from the founding pastor to the successor. And, suddenly, I'm having to preach regularly, for the first time, lead a staff team. Deal with the fact that people are now no longer have the person that they've, psychically, imprinted in with as a founding pastor, the .com bust hits. 

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And, so, people are losing their jobs, our giving goes down, we have to do layoffs, and I start sleeping less and less. From seven and half hours to seven, then six, then five, I'm sleeping less and less. Now, in retrospect, that's a dead giveaway for somebody of my profile that I am experiencing building anxiety, that it manifests itself bodily in sleep. But I did not recognize that. I just said it's because I have more work to do. It's because there's a lot of issues I have to handle. 

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And, so, I'm just sleeping less because I have more work to do. And what I didn't recognize was that I could not, at that point, admit to myself or anybody else, that I was suffering from anxiety. Because of that narrative; that it is a problem that we're supposed to make go away, pray away. And in some churches, it's even a sign of lack of faith or even a sin. Many churches will even go so far as, "Oh, it shows you don't really trust God." So they misuse. Philippians 4:6 "Do not be anxious about anything." To say that that means anxiety is a sin. 

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And, so, I was living with something of that, even in an unconscious way, that narrative, that anxiety was a problem. It was a sign of lack of faith. And here I am, the senior pastor, how then am I supposed to admit I'm suffering from, increasingly, crippling, anxiety? So I don't. I just try to ignore it. I narrate it in a way that pushes the problem to external factors and I don't acknowledge it, and it not only just doesn't fester, it metastasizes, it grows. 

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And, so, I finally hit a period where that sleep went from 5 hours to four. And then I went through a two-week period where I do not remember consciously falling asleep at all, for two weeks straight. I must have had some little micro sleep because your body just can't survive that. 

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But I don't remember consciously falling asleep and waking up for two weeks, in a row. And I remember during that second week, I was alone in the house, by myself, and I scream out loud. I'm shouting at the top of my lungs, "God, make it stop. I'll do anything, just make it stop." And then I had the second moment of realization which was, "Oh, so this is how Guantanamo Bay works."

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I realized, "Oh, this is why sleep deprivation is considered by the Geneva Convention, as a form of torture." Because it's not just I was tired, my mind was fracturing, it was psychic torture. It's hard to describe to somebody the psychic nature of anxiety-fueled sleep deprivation, of just how painful it is and how you sense you're losing your grip on reality itself. 

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So that happened to me and then, ultimately, that heightened anxiety slipped into depression, which is often what happens when chronic, untreated, anxiety goes for a long period of time. It can slide into deep depression. I went on disability, and I was barely functioning for months, and my wife had to raise our two young daughters by herself. Getting out of bed was like a major accomplishment, during those months for me. I was utterly crippled and disabled, as a person. 

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And, so, all of that, at least, is somewhat attribute to the fact that I felt so deeply ashamed about anxiety, that I could not actually acknowledge it as a problem. When it was still building and the worst of the symptoms could have been headed off. 

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So I share all of that to say that this is the danger of treating anxiety, solely, as a problem to make go away. 

Is that we end up not being able to admit it because it's surrounded by so much shame. But, more importantly, I share all that to say I know how painful anxiety is. When I say the title of my book is The Anxiety Opportunity, and I'm trying to reframe anxiety from solely being a problem, to actually being a profound opportunity for spiritual growth. 

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So I sure all I have to say is I know anxiety is painful. I'm not saying it isn't painful or it isn't a problem. I am saying, though, it isn't just a problem, that it also is a profound opportunity for the deepest kind of spiritual growth we need to encounter, and I experienced that. 

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I'm writing the book because I can say, as somebody who's gone through anxiety, that is precisely that. It is something to go through. It is not something to avoid or make go away, it's something we go through. It's like a doorway that we go through and on the other side God has, actually, our best self for us if we're willing to go through it.

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< Music >

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Alison: The paradox of that door, the metaphor that you're using, and as I'm listening and I was reading, is that we can't get through that door, to go through it if we don't name it and call it what it is. And that's what came through, so clearly, in your story, and it's what as therapists, we, at best, when we're diagnosing it's not to say, "This is a problem to make it go away."

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It's to say, "We need to name this." Because once we name it, and you talk about this in the book, we can differentiate from it. We can get it outside of us a little bit. There's a paradox there of the shame wants to keep us from saying, "Oh, it's..." And you talk about this so well in the book. Either we minimize it, we spiritually bypass it, as you're saying, or we try to externalize "Oh, if I just wasn't so busy."

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Or "If this wasn't the case."

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Instead of just going, "I'm dealing with some anxiety." Which makes us feel anxious to name it and, in fact, it's part of what opens the key to that door that actually allows it to soften. We talk about it in IFS terms as befriending it, which isn't to say that you love the experience of it. But the minute "You can name it," as Dan Siegel says, "You can start to tame it." And you really show us that in the book. It's such a gift that you take us into your journey, Curtis, because it was very real for you, this was not a minor event.

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Curtis: Well, it wasn't just a one-time event like I explained how I grew up with it, although, I didn't have the name for it growing up. Because I had developed so many coping mechanisms that made it a highly-functional anxiety until I hit that breaking point, as a pastor. And I experienced it after my breakdown, and I still experience it today, anxiety has not gone away from my life. 

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But what it has become is this opportunity for spiritual growth. Which is really the core message, and what I'm really inviting people to realize is that in anxiety we are given an insight. Given a picture, given understanding of all of the most fundamental things in our lives that we fear losing. Because that's what anxiety is, anxiety is the fear of loss. 

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And, so, when we're able to actually name and look at our anxiety, we're given a look into, "Oh, this is the true state of my heart, the true state of my soul." And there's nothing like anxiety to reveal that, if we're willing not to externalize it or not to be ashamed about it, but to actually just realize it's an invitation from God. That's the real invitation of the book is for people to follow this journey through anxiety, to realize that this is actually the key, I believe, for some really profound spiritual growth for all of us.

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Alison: Yes, it's beautiful how you talk about that. It's an invitation to look at our attachments, and you do such a nuanced job of it. Because there is one section of the book I really appreciated and got a lot from, where there's a lot of reasons we have anxiety. 

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Sometimes we're anxious because we should be anxious because things are really hard and that doesn't mean we have a predisposition to it, or whatever. And also two things can be true sometimes there is, you talk about idols underneath it. It can surely help us uncover and discover what are these things that we are just so afraid of losing. 

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Curtis, this takes me to you talk about in the book that this was the new thing that just was stunning to me. That in order to face the fear of the loss, the loss that is underneath so much of our anxiety, and it's a piece that I've never been taught before, we have to understand that that loss will be returned to us, and it gets at hope. Tell us a little bit about that. That was so powerful to me.

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Curtis: Yes, if there's one theological contribution that I'm trying to make to Christian understanding of anxiety that doesn't exist right now. It is that the ultimate answer, the ultimate strategy or approach to anxiety from a deeply Christ-centered perspective is the resurrection. Because the resurrection is the answer to anxiety. But it's important to understand how this works because what anxiety is it is the fear of loss. 

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Now, what a common mistake Christians make is that God's answer to loss is that we will avoid loss. So that, somehow, God will protect me from this feared loss. So if I am anxious about my finances, I'm anxious about my kids, how they're doing. I'm anxious about the world, the climate change, or politics or something like that, that the answer to anxiety is that feared loss will never happen. God will be the grand insurance broker in the sky.

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Alison: Are you saying that's what the church teaches us?

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Curtis: Yes, I'm saying that's the common mistake that churches can teach is that if anxiety is lost, then God is going to insure me from any scenario in the future of loss. Which is God, both, never promises that and anybody who's lived for any period of time, with any honesty, would realize that doesn't happen. Christians go through loss just like everybody else goes through loss. And that the Christian, the Christ-centered answer to loss is not that God will protect you and insure you from facing loss. 

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But, actually, if you go through loss with Jesus, and in Jesus, then we participate in the resurrection promise. And what the resurrection is, it's the promise to give back what we have lost, not to avoid loss. In fact, the resurrection is only resurrection if we have died. That's what resurrection means, that it is the restoration of life after death. So death is the loss of all losses. 

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So the resurrection promise, which is the center promise of the gospel, is not you will avoid loss. In fact, it is a promise, essentially, that you will go through loss, you will die. That's what death is, it's the loss of all losses. So we have to, actually, get over our fear and our impulse to avoid loss and be willing to go through it like we walk through a door. 

And that's what it means to walk through anxiety, is to walk through loss, to go through it. And, then, the promise is not we will avoid it.  Not that there's a way around it or a way away from the loss, but a way through that loss. And that way through is experiencing, enduring it, suffering it, suffering the real pain of the loss, but with the promise that on the other side is resurrection. Which resurrection is the return to us, it's the great get back of all that we have lost. 

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And Christians have not quite, one, understood that the true nature of that resurrection is the return of all these earthly, bodily, physical, real, concrete things that we fear losing. It is not we are zapped away in immaterial souls to heaven. It is actually a restoration of real losses that we both fear and will inevitably experience. 

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That's only when we can hold on to that promise that, then, we have the true Christ-centered response to anxiety, which leads us to our best self. Because our best, most glorified self, is given to us through death and resurrection. And, I think, if there's one thing I want to have a message out to your peers and your fellow practitioners, Christian therapists, is to actually really integrate the theology of the resurrection into our therapy. Because, ultimately, that is the deepest, most robust answer we have to anxiety. 

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The various things like mindful breathing, and presence, and naming, those are all good. Those are all helpful, Buddhists do that, secular therapists do that, that's cognitive behavioral therapy. What Christians bring, uniquely, to people suffering from anxiety, if they're willing to entertain it, anyways, is the promise of true restoration that only comes from resurrection.

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Alison: And you talk about all of those methods in the book, too, which are also very helpful. That's what I appreciate about the book. There's a practicality to the different strategies that are, sometimes, just really practical, really concrete, really in the moment. The best of what psychology has taught us is important, and that piece where you brought it back. 

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There's an exercise in the book, I'm not going to give it away, but I did the exercise. Thinking about how we think about heaven and it was revelatory to me. And you take us through a corrective about what it really means to find our lives, again, on the other side of death. And it's not what so many of us have been taught. And then you reverse engineer the fear. So it's like this thing, "I'm so anxious about my health. I'm losing aspects of my health that have meant so much to me." And we're afraid to face that because then we got to grieve it, and then that's just so sad. 

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But what this exercise does is it makes you go, "Oh, my gosh, God wants to give that back to me." And it's not a spiritually bypassing thing. It's not just like, "Oh, it'll be fine in heaven." That's not what you are saying. You are saying it's hard, there is some real loss, and anybody who struggles with anxiety understands that. You can't dupe yourself, gaslight yourself, to be like, "It's really fine, nothing bad.

No. People who struggle with anxiety are sometimes finely tuned to the fact that sometimes really hard things happen. And, so, what I love about what you're doing is there's a way of saying, "Yes, it doesn't mean everything bad that you worry about is going to happen." But, at the end of the day, what if it does? 

You have a God that goes in it with you and is actually going to restore that for you, at some point. And there's a hope that allows you to walk through the anxiety honestly, it's really nuanced. It's really beautiful piece of work, Curtis

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Curtis: Yes, and you not only get the ultimate restoration, but you actually will experience less anxiety. Not zero anxiety but less anxiety. Because when anxiety, which is a natural human emotion, we experience in the presence of potential future loss, it is normal, it is natural. It is not a sin, and I explain that in my book, including the claim that, you'll have to read the book to see how it's all laid out, that Jesus experienced anxiety. The gospels are universally clear Jesus experienced anxiety. 

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So it's not a sin, it's a natural human emotion and experience in the face of loss. Such that when Jesus, the ultimate true human, faced His impending loss in His death, He experienced all of the symptoms, well, not all, but many of the symptoms, classic symptoms, of anxiety and the Scriptures are clear about that. 

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But there's a difference between anxiety and anxiety disorder. So anxiety disorder is when we are actually responding to anxiety in an unhelpful dysfunctional way. And one of the most pervasive, common, thread that you run through anxiety disorders, and studies have shown this, is this avoidance, is that we're actually trying to avoid anxiety. We're afraid of feeling anxious. But we can't actually avoid it because it's a natural human emotion in the face of inevitable loss. 

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And, so, what happens is we get on this hamster wheel where we are trying, desperately, to not feel anxious. To do things to actually avoid feeling anxious rather than just suffer it and go through it, and that actually is what creates anxiety disorders. That's what, actually, multiplies the level of anxiety in our life, it's when we feel like it's something that we must make go away.

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Alison: Yes, I want to bring this around a little bit to where you started. Because so many of my listeners I know are probably thinking about themselves, but also about their kids. One of the things we do, in my family, to try to not do the anxiety avoidance is we try to categorize it. And, so, we would say things to our kids. So, for example, "Is it big, medium, or small?"

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So the point is, of course, there's anxiety, and they could do, "Oh, small."

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"Okay, great." 

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So if it's small, we just got to live with it; we got to do the thing. If it's big and it's starting to veer toward, then, we'll take a different approach. But just that it's the naming and it's the taming a little bit, it's categorizing, and that's what you're getting at when we avoid it or pretend. 

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And, as parents, and you talk about this in the book, as a dad, and I want you to talk about it, it was so great. If we're afraid to honor the reality that, "Of course our kids are anxious." Which means we have to do our own work with our own anxiety, we're going to make it worse for them. So tell us a little bit about that, as a dad.

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Curtis: Oh, well, this is something that I really spent a lot of time thinking and writing about this in the book. Because I just recognize that we are living in a mental health pandemic. Where the latest CDC report shows one in three of teenage girls felt deeply anxious and depressed enough to at least contemplate suicide, I mean, that's a remarkable statistic. And, so, anxiety is everywhere among teens. 

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And, so, how do we, then, equip parents to actually be parents in that moment? And I think what I'm trying to call attention to is if your kids are feeling anxious, that's going to trigger, of course, anxiety in you. And it's going to be a complex triggering because, one, you're just going to be anxious for them. 

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Of course, naturally, as parents, "My kids are suffering." You're going to be anxious. That's one level and, then, there's even a deeper, subtler layer, which is it's quite likely their anxiety is going to also trigger your own childhood experience of anxiety. That's the script, that's the emotional script that's deeply embedded in you. 

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And, so, if you grew up like me; denying it, minimizing it, not wanting to confront it. There's a good chance that me as a parent, now, are going to fall back on that same script. Because I'm sure you talk about this in your therapy, as parents, we're reliving our childhood scripts.

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Alison: We're healing those parts of us as our kids are bringing them to the surface, totally.

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Curtis: Exactly. And, so, being a parent of an anxious child is actually an opportunity for you to do some healing of your own anxiety that's deep within you from your own, perhaps, childhood experiences. So, for me, again, because I grew up as an immigrant, in my culture, both, secular as well as Christian, and as an Asian American of this sort of minimizing it. And the way that gets transmuted to me now is I along with being a theologian, I'm also a consultant. I consult organizations, strategy, and leadership and so forth. 

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And, so, what I end up doing, my temptation as a parent, is I slip into what I call consultant dad, and consultant dad is really trying to solve their problems. What's been the hardest thing, for me, to recognize is recognizing how much so much of my motivation, when I'm being Consultant dad and trying to solve their problems right away, is I'm actually trying to minimize their problem. 

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I mean, there's part of me that is, actually, legitimately, loving them and wanting to solve their problem. But there's this unnamed emotional motivation that's like, "I want them to be okay because them not being okay is making me not okay and, so, I want to minimize it. And, so, it's a very sophisticated, in some ways, method, although, actually, it's not that sophisticated because my kids can see right through it. 

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They can't quite exactly name all of it but they recognize something about consultant dad is not right. They don't like consultant dad, and the reason is because they realize at some, either, named or unnamed level. They recognize that consultant dad is me trying to minimize their problem and it's not giving them space to feel what they're feeling.

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Alison: Well, and consultant dad is trying to make the anxiety go away, without first naming it, honoring it, putting it...

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Curtis: That's right, exactly.

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Alison: I love that self-awareness, it's so beautiful. Because we all see it, we all do it, we see it in our spouses, when you just jump in to save the day. So you talk about it as consultant dad, and then what is it that you move toward?

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Curtis: Yes, I call him I call this other self, to use your IFS paradigm that we have multiple cells that we can call on. So if there's consultant dad there's also grieving dad. And grieving dad isn't jumping in to solve the problem. Grieving dad sounds something like this "Honey, that sounds really hard. I'm so sorry you're feeling that, and that's totally understandable." And that sounds really different than, "Let's solve this problem; you need to do this."

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"Have you thought about this?" It's a different voice, and I'm learning to lean more into and give more space and voice to grieving dad. And what I find is my kids, who are now 22 and 19, that's really the more appropriate dad for them at this age. I mean, there's a time when consultant dad is helpful for when kids need problems to be solved. But at this age, as adults, or near adults, they want somebody who is willing to grieve with them. And it's something that parents can give their kids in ways that no one else can. 

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And I'm discovering this right now, with my own kids, is that because so many of their peers are also anxious that there's not a lot of capacity, among their peers, to actually grieve with each other. To actually hold each other because they're all overwhelmed themselves with their own anxiety. That peer teens have a hard time, actually, making room for each other's anxieties because they're feeling so overcapacity themselves. 

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And, so, one of the great gifts parents can offer their kids is not to be the problem solver, although, there are moments and times when that can be appropriate. But to be the one who is grieving with your kid and making room for it and, ultimately, deeply, accepting their kids. Because the parental acceptance of your child, even as they are anxious, is something that any anxious person, but, especially, anxious teens are deeply craving. "Am I okay? Even in my current feelings, am I okay?"

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"Am I still loved?"

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"Am I still accepted?"

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"Do I still belong?" And that's the voice that the parents can give. No therapist, no doctor, no pill can deliver. It is that deep, fundamental, unconditional, acceptance. And that's why it's so important for anxious parents to do their own work of accepting their own anxious selves. This is why I want them to read the book and do the work for their own anxiety. Because it's almost impossible to accept a quality in someone else that you have not accepted in yourself. 

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If you are rejecting, ashamed about, trying to make go away your own internal anxiety. You will not be able to accept, make space, receive the anxiety in your child. So it's both an opportunity and a necessary means of responding to your child. That your child's anxiety is an opportunity for you to grow in self-acceptance of your own anxiety, and then that self-acceptance will flow back to give back to your child what your child most needs from you.

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Alison: It's so good. It's so right, and as you were talking and you were talking about holding that non anxious presence, that safety. I got a picture, in my mind, that's what God does for us. God doesn't say, Jesus doesn't say, "All right, here's the problem."

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Jesus says, "I am with you. I am with you in it." It's the presence that we create, and there are so few pockets of that for our kids. 

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There was a moment I loved, Curtis, where you had that moment with yourself, and it was just so beautiful, where you found yourself being present with your anxiety, from a different place inside. It reminded me of what Henri Nouwen calls the inner voice of love. And it was just a moment. I think, it was while you were in the therapy office, is that right?

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Curtis: In therapy, yes, it was in the middle of therapy experience, and my therapist was asked, my form of anxiety disorder is rumination. The turning over of a thought or a scenario, over and over in your mind, all in a desperate attempt to find something that will make the anxiety go away. So that's my anxiety disorder of my move at trying to make anxiety go away. 

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And, so, I was talking to my therapist about that and she asked me this question, which was so puzzling to me at the time. She said, "Well, is there a different move you can make?" And I thought she meant, "Is there a different mental move?"

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And I was like, "I'm trapped, I can't."

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And she's like, "No, I'm talking about a different physical move, a different bodily move." Which was just a question I'd never thought of before. And, so, I started to try to just tune in to what my body craved, and what my body wanted and needed in that moment. 

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And I discovered a move, and I talk about this in the book, and it turns out to be just a very basic reaching across my body and giving my shoulder, it's usually my right hand to my left shoulder, a very gentle pat. And, then, as I was just gently patting myself, I heard myself say out loud, "It's all right, kiddo. It's all right." Nobody has ever called me kiddo before. My parents didn't call me that. No one calls me that. And I was like, "Where is that coming from?" 

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And I realized, "Oh, that's the voice of what I needed to hear as an eight-year-old when I was a scared as a latchkey kid alone in the house." And I felt like I was receiving that from Jesus because that voice was somebody who knew me deeply. Who was with me even all the days of my life, including when I was eight years old and knew from a place of acceptance and empathy, having experienced anxiety knew exactly what I needed to hear and feel at that point. And that's the beauty of taking our anxiety and experiencing our anxiety with Jesus.

We experience it with the one who knows us, the one who created us, the one who Himself suffered anxiety. I find that so comforting and reassuring to know that Jesus, Himself, the incarnate one, the truly human one, suffered anxiety. 

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And, so, He does not look down with a wagging finger, with a shaming reproach, with some command for us to just get our act together when we're anxious. He knows, He's been there, He shares it. And, so, the voice we hear from Jesus, in our anxiety, if it is truly the genuine voice of Jesus, will be the voice of empathy and acceptance.

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Alison: I love that.

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< Music >

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Alison: You see the fruit of that, your own work to embrace and accept, and the opportunity that anxiety has given you to grow in the receiving of that love. You see the fruit of that in your ability to hold that, then, for your daughters.

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Curtis: Yes, you hold it for others, hold it for your loved ones, hold it for yourself. It's not like I never experience anxiety anymore. But I hold it very differently, and when you develop these various practices, that I talk about in the book, what I call holding practices. That are different than the avoidance habits, bad habits, we get into, when we can actually hold our anxiety. 

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I can say with my own experience and an experience passed by research, when you can actually hold anxiety, it doesn't make anxiety go away, but it brings it down to such lower levels. Because we're not on a hamster wheel trying to get away from anxiety. We're just going through it and we're just enduring it, just experiencing it, just suffering it, and it becomes big to medium or medium to too little when that happens.

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Alison: Exactly, and it brings you closer to the people that you love in that regard. Curtis, it is such a beautiful book, I'm going to be sending it to lots of folks I know.

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Curtis: Oh, thank you.

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Alison: It's just a really profound, everything I do I'm trying to integrate faith with psychology, and that's what this book is doing. It's the best of what secular therapy and all these strategies have to offer, combined with this really robust Christian theology, biblical theology. Tell folks how they can find you? How they can get a hold of the book?

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Curtis: Well, so you can get a hold of the book at your typical Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, wherever you get your book. So it's called The Anxiety Opportunity: How Worry is the Doorway to Your Best Self. So please order, please review, and then also encourage folks to listen into our conversations around a lot of topics, but anxiety is a big theme that we weave through our discussion on our podcast called The Good Faith Podcast. Again, available on any Apple podcast, or Stitcher, or any streaming device. 

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And we really believe that anxiety is one of the unexplored factors in a lot of our cultural, social, even political struggles we have as Christians. And I'm trying to actually show how anxiety and our, potentially, misshapen responses to anxiety are responsible for how messed up we can get on all these other aspects of our lives. So, Good Faith podcast, please check that out, and The Anxiety Opportunity as a book.

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Alison: Well, thank you for just taking your story with anxiety. You also talk about, we didn't get into this, but the other moment in the book where I teared up was where you talked about the idol. And, then, when you finally released all that fear around that particular idol of work to God. How, ironically, you began to have a lot of fruitfulness, and a lot of it was in this area of taking this pain of anxiety and transforming it into these beautiful resources for others.

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Curtis: Yes, I found, when I talk to people, they all end up having their own examples of that story. Of when they do, finally, walk through their anxiety, how God opens up amazing opportunities for them to love, care, serve others in the world, and that's the anxiety opportunity. 

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So thank you for giving me a chance to share that with your listeners. And, listeners, by the way, tune into Good Faith because we're going to have a great guest coming up. You're going to have to tune in every week to find out when this great guest comes, but that's Alison. She's going to be coming on The Good Faith, and I can't wait to have this conversation because, Alison, you and I have some really fun conversations to have about the self and what is the true self.

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Alison: I can't wait. I'm looking forward to it. Tell us, as I ask all my guests, Curtis, what is bringing out the best of you right now?

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Curtis: So, most recently, I've been discovering music, and I feel kind of funny saying this, but I'm not a music listener. But I finally said, "You know what, I really should be listening more to engage a part of myself that is undernourished. It's the non-rational, more emotional side of myself. 

The part that's poetry, not nonfiction. And I realized, "Oh, that's what music is." Music is speaking to the heart, it's speaking to the emotions, and it activates that part. So my daughters finally showed me how to get on Spotify and how to actually open up a whole range of music. And I'm going to put a shout out, the music of Andrew Peterson is bringing me great joy.

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So Andrew Peterson is a Christian musician based in Nashville. He's written, released two albums called "The Resurrection Letters" Volume One and Volume Two. I highly recommend that because, as you know, as we've talked about, resurrection is such, for me, interwoven to the Christian response to anxiety. And to have this musical exploration of the Christian promise of resurrection has been so soul filling for me. So that's been the thing that's been bringing me joy.

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Alison: Well, I love that. I'm going to go check that out. I love that. I love your call to rethink and reimagine how we're talking about resurrection. I just want to put a plug in, if you just read those two chapters, I want to say it is not this sort of we're just going to sit around in the sky and sing boring songs. Because what hope is there in that?

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Curtis: That's right. Yes, how is that a response to anxiety?

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Alison: Exactly, I love it. Well, thank you again, Curtis. Check out The Anxiety Opportunity. Check out The Good Faith Podcast, and we're just so grateful for you.

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Curtis: Alison, it's been a pleasure, thank you for having me.

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< Outro >

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Alison: Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you'd take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

We are talking all about finding our strengths today with my friend, Laura Cootsona, an accomplished coach, consultant, and non-profit executive. She walks us through StrengthsFinder, a tool that helps you identify and lean into your strengths and uncover the strengths of others. Research shows that leaning into your strengths at work and in life is absolutely life-changing.

‍

Here's what we cover:

1. How to identify strengths to unleash your potential

2. The link between strengths and enjoying your work

3. Understanding the downside of your strong points

4. How to team up with other strengths

5. How to build a strength-based family

Do you have questions for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

Want to receive free bonus content? ⁠⁠Sign up for my free weekly email here.

‍

Resources

• ‍My Favorite Psychology Tools Youtube Playlist
• ‍Strengthsfinder test by The Gallup Organization
• ‍More about The Jesus Center
• ‍Good Well Consulting
• ‍What Color Is Your Parachute by Richard N. Bolles
• ‍Now Discover Your Strengths by Marcus Buckingham and Donald O. Clifton
• ‍1 Corinthians 12:12-31 ‍
• Resources for support

‍

‍Related Episodes:

• Episode 49: Personality, the Big Five Traits, and Why Are We So Obsessed With Personality Types?
• Episode 50: 9 Types of Intelligence, the Trap of Comparison, and How to Connect More Authentically with God
• Episode 51: The 12 Common Thinking Traps, Mind Reading, Mental Filters, and How To Stop Taking Things Personally
• Episode 52: The Enneagram—9 Ways to Uncover the Best (and Worst) of Who You Are, Get Honest With Yourself, & Improve Your Relationships

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.
• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Visit hiyahealth.com/BESTOFYOU and get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults.

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast. I am so glad you're here. This is the last episode in our series called My Favorite Psychology Tools. I'm sad to see this one go. I have loved every single one of these, and maybe we'll revisit a part two of this in the future, and I'll see if you guys have some ideas about what you want me to talk about. 

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But today we're going to end with StrengthsFinder. This is one of my favorite psychology tools, that has helped me so much in my life. And to talk about it, I've invited my dear friend Laura Cootsona onto the podcast. Laura and I met several years ago when we were co-leading retreats with my co-author Kimberly Miller, called Leading Wholeheartedly. We led these retreats together and Laura was both the coordinator of the retreat, as well, as she led us through Strength Finders exercises at every retreat and I learned so much from her. 

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She has worked with nonprofit organizations for 37 years. She built a consulting practice that focuses on fundraising, marketing, CEO coaching, strategic planning, and board development. She recently served as the executive director of the Jesus Center, which is a social service nonprofit in Chico, California. That was focused on reducing the impact of homelessness. 

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She's also been deeply involved in Campfire Collaborative, which has been a huge part of the long-term recovery process from the terrible fires in Paradise, California. And more, recently, she has formed a collaborative consulting firm called Good Well Consulting, where she focuses on personal, team, organizational, and community health, and capacity building. She lives in Chico, California, with her husband and has two grown daughters. 

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Welcome to The Best of You, podcast, Laura. I am so glad to have you here today. We've known each other for a long time, and it's really fun to get to bring your expertise to this podcast. So thanks for being here.

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Laura: Yes, thank you, Alison, for inviting me. This is such a fun privilege.

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Alison: So, Laura, I learned about StrengthsFinder from you. We used to run these retreats together, these Leading Wholeheartedly retreats. And one of the things that you would bring to the table was you led us all through StrengthsFinder, and I found it to be so powerful. And I've gone on to use it in my own life. I've used it in my marriage. I'll tell a little bit about how we approach it, which has been really fun. But just tell us a little bit about how you discovered StrengthsFinder, what it meant to you, and how you've used it in your work?

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Laura: So I was, actually, having to go back a little bit, in the history books, to make sure I had the chronology correct. But I want to go back a little further, which I used to say I was one of those nerds that would read the self-help books and do all the exercises. And, so, I really think my pre-work towards StrengthsFinder was in a book that was published over and over, and I think it's still being published called What Color Is Your Parachute?

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Alison: Yes.

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Laura: And I still remember, circa 1986-ish, seven-ish, going through every exercise. And it was a little bit more of a blunt instrument, but it, basically, divided people into three categories. People who wanted to work with people. People who were really connected to place, and people who were connected to information. 

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So I had this big insight at 22, 23, that I liked to work with people. So I think that was, honestly, I'm belittling it, but it was really a big insight, at that point. And, so, fast-forward 15 years, I was in New York City. 

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My husband and I, were living in Manhattan, and as it related to his work, we met a woman who was working for the Gallup Organization. And I still remember her handing us this book called Now Discover Your Strengths. Which was, essentially, the first run at introducing the strengths philosophy into the mass market. That Gallup had done millions of interviews around worker satisfaction, and discovered the low ratings of worker satisfaction. And they started to dig, and built this all to figure out what was going to be the key to shifting worker satisfaction. 

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And, so, in the early 2000s, they put together what's called StrengthsFinder. And then in 2007 they published The StrengthsFinder 2.0, which is the assessment that is being used now. But throughout they kept refining it, 

and what's super great about it now is it's much more personalized. Because we could have the same strengths, but it'll show up really differently based on combination, personality, context, a bunch of other things. So now when you get a report, it's much more personalized, which makes it really fun.

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But I discovered it really after that New York season. In the early 2000, and it just really resonated because of its particular nature and its positivity.

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Alison: So tell us a little bit about what it is. It's a strength-based approach?

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Laura: Yes, and that's really critical, it's all based on positive psychology. So the idea that you would try to figure out where you're weak and build up those areas is the opposite of what the StrengthsFinder is. So the words are perfectly apt; Finding your strengths. Identifying, articulating, connecting with how you show up in the world and, essentially, it's a little formula. 

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They call the first element of the formula talent, but you could call it gifting, or natural abilities, God-given characteristics, however you want to talk about. What just is in you, it's like the raw material. And, then, the second part of the equation is experiences, skill development, training, education, all the pieces that can add value and depth, and excellence, within your naturally born talents, and that equals a strength.

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Alison: Oh, interesting. So it's a combination of nature and nurture, in a way.

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Laura: Yes, exactly.

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Alison: So strength is something you probably have a little bit of naturally, and it also probably was nurtured in you?

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Laura: Exactly. And what's fun about it is you can go back. I mean, I've done autobiographical exercises where you go back and you search for the early signs of that strength showing up. And, for me, they show up in childhood. 

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Alison: Yes. 

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Laura: Some of them are, incredibly, absent in my childhood and because of some small t traumas, but changes were in the way I navigated the world, they appeared later. But some of them are really they're there.

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Alison: Is it possible that somebody could have an innate strength, that didn't get reinforced or maybe was even seen as a deficit early on. And then later they could begin to nurture that and develop a strength that they thought they didn't have? How does that work?

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Laura: I think you can. I mean, again, in some ways, it's like the clay, there is a certain set of raw material. And what's fun about this assessment is there's enough complexity to it that you can do a lot with it. So, again, part of how it works is you take this online assessment, and there are 34 possible strengths. The basic assessment puts out five of those strengths that are your top five. But the assessment, if you want to spring for the full 34, will rank the entire set for you, and it's equally as fascinating. 

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Alison: I do, too.

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Laura: But the top five, and really your top ten, really, are your key elements from which you can draw all abilities to interact with your work, your contacts, your relationships. So it just gives you, for me, again, going back to that early assessment, I'm good with people. But in what way am I good with people, and what is my role? And the strengths give me more particularity to where I fit in the people world, if you will, there's a lot of people professions.

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Alison: Yes, and, so, as I understood it, as I learned it from you, of the 34 strengths they exist within, essentially, four different categories. I don't think we're going to go through all the strengths, although, let's, definitely, touch on them. But what are the four categories?

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Laura: Yes, so they call them domains, and the strengths fall neatly into these four domains. And, so, the first is executing, which is pretty obvious, it's getting stuff done. It's all those strengths that get you to move balls forward.

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Alison: What are some examples of those executing strengths?

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Laura: Yes, so the executing strengths, one of the ones I love that's in executing is called arranger. It happens to be one of my strengths. But it's the ability to, essentially, move things around. I'll read some of the key characteristics because it's better their words than mine. "You are a conductor." And I love that image of being a conductor. "When faced with a complex situation involving many factors. You enjoy managing all of the variables, aligning and realigning them until you are sure they are arranged in a productive configuration."

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Alison: Interesting.

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Laura: I consider it like running audibles, sometimes as an arranger. So you have your plan, but you also are the one that can make in-the-minute decisions like, "Oh, that's not working, let's shift this way just slightly. Why don't you go over there and you go over here, or let's do this first, and then we'll come to that." That's the arranger, classic example of an executing character.

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Alison: Which would make sense because as I got to know you, you were the retreats' coordinator. So you were holding all of the pieces, and you were that person that if something had to change, you could rearrange everything to make it work with the change.

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Laura: Yes, you pull the team back together, like, "Okay, I'm reading the room. The room is saying, I'm exhausted, we're going to take a break." I mean, something that simple to, "Okay, that exercise has gone too long. Let's move to this other one, and skip that one we had planned." That's an arranger role.

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Alison: So that's executor. What are some of the other common, maybe, strengths that people might be familiar with if they're in that more executor category?

Laura: One of my favorites is responsibility, and this one's so fun because the people who show up in this are the people, I mean, think about the person who has responsibility is the person you rely upon. Because the language is so good that they've put together, "Your responsibility theme forces you to take psychological ownership." So that's deep stuff.

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For anything you commit to, and whether large or small and you feel emotionally bound to follow it through to completion, your good name depends on it. And if for some reason you cannot deliver you, automatically, start to look for ways to make it up to the other person and so on and so on. 

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We all know people with that characteristic and know that that is real.

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Alison: And they're going to get the job done. Again in that executive space, they're going to execute because of that high value on responsibility, interesting.

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Laura: So if you have someone with responsibility, looking at it in the context of teams, those are the people who are going to just be tenacious about making sure it gets completed. And, sometimes, honestly, and this goes back to your whole theme is sometimes at great expense to themselves.

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Alison: Exactly, those strengths, we'll get there, but those strengths can definitely also become our Achilles' heel if we don't know. I have a high responsible in my family and I just have to shepherd her through, "It is okay, we can let this ball drop." And it is excruciating for her to do that.

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Laura: It's like a moral failure.

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Alison: It's a moral failure, yes, I can already see the ties here. We did the Enneagram last week.So the ties to the Enneagram One.

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Laura: Totally, yes.

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Alison: What's this next category?

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Laura: The next one is relationship building. And relationship building, again, I ran a social service agency. You'll find most staffing in a social service arena, I'm sure in the counseling arena are high on relationship building. Your strengths end up a lot in relationship building. 

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Again, like a classic profile given a lot of your roles, and you have a couple that I think you could speak to. One you have is empathy, another is positivity. Some of the strengths, I'll just be honest, I think, some of the words are harder to just intuitively understand. Empathy and positivity are what you think they are.

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Alison: Yes, that was a big one for me, empathy was my number one as I tested out. Well, I was a little surprised that it was number one, and it was actually helpful to me. Because like that high responsible, and I talk about this a lot, empathy has been with me, as you said, Laura, I can go back to childhood and I remember the kids in my class that were hurting from first grade. I knew who they were, I remember their names. It still breaks my heart that I didn't know what to do. 

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It was with me early on. It was also affirmed in me, of course, then I would go on to be a therapist. And as I talk about it, it can also become a little bit of a trap. Gosh, I feel the empathy, and also I have only so much bandwidth. And, so, these strengths, they're very real, and we have to learn to steward them and, then, the positivity is another one of mine. 

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And, so, that's interesting. The empathy, you bleed for other people, and then positivity, as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, it's like you can see the positive in anything. 

You can look for the positive. And, so, you're believing in people constantly. You're believing in the best of what can happen. Which is great in my field but, also, you have to learn how to temper that a little bit because sometimes the best-case scenario doesn't always happen.

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Laura: Reality interrupts that. It is, you also have maximizer, which is in this category, and that is also a unique strength, as you do particularly personal. I don't think you have individualization, but individualization and maximizer are really ones that you see that people are becoming their best version of themselves. 

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So, again, I think, positivity can lead to that. But, obviously, our trauma-informed approach to things is also staying with them in the grief, and the pain, long enough to give valid affirmation and empathy to it. So, again, they are inherent in you. But that doesn't mean we don't have control over how they're implemented or engaged in our day-to-day. And as we get more fluent in the particularities of our strengths, we have more control over how we bring them into the world. And, sometimes, for different reasons, we need to temper some of them.

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Alison: Yes, I love that. I love just to pause here, for a second, the strengths approach, what it does is it help you, and you touched on this at the beginning. When I looked at those five strengths, I'm like, "Yes, this is really a picture of who I am at my best. "I certainly have to learn to temper it. And it doesn't mean I discount those bottom five, because I have looked a lot at my bottom five, and that's actually been very helpful to me. 

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Because it's not that I'm not responsible for those. But I think, correct me if I'm wrong, the strength-based approach suggests that leaning into your strengths and learning how to really steward the strengths is more productive than trying to become those bottom five things that are the hardest things for you to ever become. 

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It doesn't mean you don't have some responsibility for them. But if you're trying to fit yourself into a role that requires those strengths that are literally at the bottom of your list. Sometimes, I talk about you want to work with the grain of who you are. You don't want to be working against yourself. And if you're in a position, or a role, or a job, or a relationship where you are required to constantly show up at those bottom five of your strengths. You're working against the grain of yourself, and it's really hard.

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Laura: Absolutely, again, if you go back to one of the motivators for developing this was around job satisfaction. And if you start to move from the individual analysis to how you operate, particularly, in your work or with your team. The evidence is just in the realm of miraculous about what it feels like and the satisfaction level that happens, when your role in your work is aligned with your strengths, this whole thing just breaks open. 

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We've heard the work on flow, we've heard the work on geniuses. When we are aligned with the things that give us energy, it just keeps giving you energy. I agree that we need to know, I would call them maybe our blind spots, the things we just don't naturally pay attention to rather than calling them weaknesses. 

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One of mine is context, and as far as I understand context, often it shows up in people who really hold to the past and the historical connections. I don't have a very good memory and I'm just on to the next thing. And in the Enneagram I'm that type, I'm just going forward and, obviously, sometimes, it gets me into serious trouble. So, again, a blind spot is-

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And, then, when I'm working with groups, and just to fast-forward, one of the contexts that I work in is in disaster recovery. And in disaster recovery, most people are actually very connected to place and past. And when you lose everything, you can be all positive about the future, but they have not released whatever it is that binds them to the past. 

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And, so, I have to be ultra-sensitive to giving room for that. Even though, "My family home is gone, I don't care. It was bulldozed 30 years ago, I don't care." But I'm weird that way. That's an anomalous characteristic for most humans, they're very connected to place.

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Alison: Yes, I love how you're talking about it as a blind spot. Because now that you're aware of the blind spot. You're aware, "Oh, that makes sense. It's not in my primary line of focus, but I can be aware. I can be more sensitive to it, knowing that it's there, knowing that it's not going to be in my primary line of focus."

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Laura: Right, which leads me to the next domain, which is strategic thinking. And, although, I have a lot of strategic strengths, again, back to the Enneagram, I'm a gut type. So I'm always going to push into moving things forward. And strategic thinking says, "Stop for a minute, imagine that you might actually be answering or solving the wrong problem. Let's collect more information, ask more questions." 

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I always think about, my husband and I call it going to the ground floor. He loves going to the ground floor, which means dismantle everything and start again. And I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, we're doing this, again."

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But, man, if you're just a fraction off the right angle, as you're going to solve a problem, by the time you get there, you're so missed the mark. So we need to push into folks with strategic thinking. Or if we have strengths in strategic thinking, we need to bring them forward before we start executing.

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Alison: Yes, so true, wait, so you're more of an executor and your husband is more strategic?

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Laura: Yes, he's totally strategic, and, actually, mine is influencing. So not only am I executing, but in the fourth domain, I'm rallying the troops to move forward. I'm getting everyone excited. I'm the cheerleader and I've got the megaphone, and I'm like, "Okay, everybody, let's move to the right side of the room."

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Alison: I'm laughing because I hear you on that strategic one.

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Laura: Yes, well, it's so funny because when I started doing StrengthsFinder in the retreats that we did with Christians in the Visual Arts, and then I'm Leading Wholeheartedly. 

So the Christians in the Visual Arts, the retreats were called Doing Good Well. And we brought together young female artists of faith, and with the premise that a lot of their voices were getting lost in the mix.

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Whether it was in the church or in the secular context. That we wanted to give them a space to, again, give them some vocabulary and some claim over their unique contributions. That was the StrengthsFinder piece. We worked with Internal Family Systems to help them understand their internal psychological piece. And then we built some real practical skills on how they can, then, show up in their context. And, so, we would start with StrengthsFinder, and artists just are, notoriously, in the strategic thinking domain, I mean, just predominantly.

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Alison: Interesting.

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Laura: So the first thing they do when they get their results is they question two things. They question the entire assessment; they question their results. And, so, I figured this out after doing it a couple of times and I'm like, "All right, you people, I understand that, so question away. Just bring me all your, 'No, I don't like this, and this isn't working, and I don't think this is'" 

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And the way I would understand it is talking to my husband, who I adore, but he immediately goes into finding, he's an academic, strategic thinker. That's what you do, it's his craft. And it taught me to appreciate that, whereas before it felt very, I want to be honest, a bit annoying. 

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Like, "Why do you have to poke all these holes in it? Let's just go. Why are you getting in my way?" But now I see, oh, again, blind spot, I don't do that long enough, and I don't do it carefully enough. And, so, I'm learning to say, "Bring that and I'll hold myself down and don't do something, yet."

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Well, I want to get through these four categories. But this is just such a fun conversation, we're getting to the strength-based approach and everything in this series, and I love that we're having on this. It's not just about this individual, "This is who I am. This is the way it's going to be. These are my strengths; it's my way or the highway." They actually help us live better in community, and that's what you're saying. It's like if we're only looking at our own gifts and "Everybody should be just like me, and if you're not just like me, you're annoying, or that's bad."

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It's, no, actually, we start to appreciate what happens when we come together and we look at things from that larger perspective. We get to play our role. But my role is going to shine even more brightly when it's brought into partnership with someone that's going to help me pause, see the big picture. Make sure we're building on the right foundation, and then let all that empathy, and that maximizing, and that positivity shine.

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Laura: Yes, so the fourth domain, just to finish that structure, is influencing. And you have a couple of your top strengths in there, and I have three of my top that is really my domain. And, again, back to my lovely artist friends, to use an old phrase, they think outside the box. Which is exactly what we want our artists to do, and they create, amazingly, beautiful things. 

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So they often will be able to execute at that level. But where they really have blind spots is around what we might just call marketing. Or telling their story to another outside world, and getting people, essentially, to follow them. 

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And they need influencers to be their town criers, to be their bringers of others along. I always say to people, "If you want something that you'd love to get out into the world, tell me. If I like it, I will tell everyone I know." And I don't do that because it's my job. I do it, I now call it hobby. I love sharing cool things or connecting cool people to cool people, who are doing cool projects. 

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Which I think one of the fun strengths under influencing is what they call WOO, which is a tricky strength. You and I both have it, and it stands for this is unusual in the strengths vocabulary, but it stands for Winning Others Over. So the best scenario to describe WOO is you go into a party, in fact, I just did this. I flew to L.A., on Sunday, for a party of a really dear friend of mine, and I knew no one. 

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I knew one person at the gathering. And someone with WOO walks into a situation like that, and I just started with the husband of the one person I knew. Then I talked to the one other person I knew. And by the end, we're all sitting around a big table as if we were all friends, since high school like they all were, and making connections between one person and another. So in its best version WOO connects people. It makes people feel comfortable.

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I mean, nothing makes me happier, at my own parties, then you come in the door and I'm like, "Oh, Alison, I really want you to meet Joe." And then you guys get in a conversation and then I go on to the next thing, that just makes me excited. Obviously, the downside of WOO is it's a little flitty and it can be seen as a bit like you work the room and that starts to put humans in categories that aren't superhuman, more transactional. So I don't like that part of WOO, but, again, I think that's a good example of what influencing looks like in the strengths.

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Alison: So we have this idea of influencer, today. We think about social media influencers, people influencing, there is a sense in which it's influencing others. But in this context, what I like about what you're saying about it. What I relate more to with it is there's an ability to win people over in the sense of earn trust. There's ability to inspire. What are some of the other qualities under influencer? It seems like there's an ability to inspire, to encourage, to bring in, to gather, to connect, to earn trust.

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Laura: Yes, I mean, I have three of influence. So I have activator, communication, and WOO. And the more I sit with those, I see how they all work together. So communication is my top strength, which doesn't mean I'm a great preacher. It's not about production, it's about an incessant attempt to communicate, to make ideas clear. And to, in this sense, for the purpose of change behaviors, change thoughts, moving people together, moving people in a direction. 

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I love teaching, I love training. I'm obsessed with that because I believe that people can, actually, move and change. So an activator, again, is somewhat like arranger, but it's really more of a catalytic role, is another way of looking at that. But with activator and, then, I have arranger.

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Alison: Meaning you can make things happen. You can make things happen, then you can rearrange them and you communicate. So you're in what's your zone? What's your zone of work where you're, interpersonally, just thriving?

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Laura: Yes, again, last night, I was with 30 people, training them on fundraising and identifying who their best prospects were. So I'm using communication. I'm giving them tools, and I'm giving them a tool. Someone will ask a question like, "Should you ask for a specific dollar amount, or range, or just open ended?"

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And I say "Yes." And that's how the arranger goes because you're in a certain context, it's relational. You have a particular sense, you know your project, and here's the advantages of each way. So I'm able to say, "Yes, these are your choices."

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And, so, that's that fluidity. It's not like, "Okay, this is how you do fundraising." No, it's relationally bound, so your relationship dictates your path not transactional in that sense. So that draws on my perspective, which is adaptable, responsive. Although, I don't show up in my top five a lot, in relationship building. I'm very keenly aware of how we don't use people, we empower people, we give them agency, we're equal footing. There's dignity. Those principles of life run through how, most of the good days, I show up.

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Alison: Yes, I love that. I love how you get a picture of and for everybody listening, you can go take this test? You can purchase it online?

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Laura: Yes, you can just go on the Gallup website.

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Alison: And you get those strengths, I have everybody do it. Our daughter, right before college, she and her friend, I had them taking it just to get a sense of-

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Laura: Yes, gave it as graduation gift-

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Alison: That's cool because you do. For me, when I started doing this podcast, I was really surprised at it brought together my strengths because I have a maximizing strengths. I have that WOO strength, which for me is I love a lot of different ideas, a lot of different topics, and this podcast allows me to go broad. I can go deep and I can go broad. It allowed some components of who I am, some strengths that I have that I couldn't bring out in other places, and it was really neat. Just like you said, it's like you're going with the grain of who you are. 

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The maximizing of ideas, gosh, I can get these ideas out into the world in a much more efficient, more maximized, way than only seeing one person at a time. I still love to do that, too, but it's a process of learning. We don't all, immediately, magically, fall into the right line of work. I think about, Laura, and I'm curious about this, with how this all applies into our families, into our relationships, into our parenting, into our marriages. 

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Because that's another area where my husband and I, one of the exercises we did was we looked at each other's top five and then we looked at each other's bottom five. And that helps with some of even division of household labor.

If we are looking at me to be the structured, organizational, in our household, we are all just going to be frustrated, and it doesn't mean I don't try. But I'm not one of those people that the forks are always in the exact correct fork drawer. That was the household I grew up in. And, so, we got to work with that. We got to work with that, and here are the strengths. 

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And, so, we have a lot of conversations about this in our family and it's all play to our strengths. We all have to be sensitive to each other. How about you? How has this also shown up as a mom, in your family, and in your friendships? How has this helped you?

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Laura: Yes, absolutely, I think, clarity of who we are and how we show up in a space. Which I've discovered, as I get older, is harder for me to understand how I show up than I think. I show up with a lot of power and influence based on my strengths. But I have my internal persona is gentle and kind, but sometimes I'm not perceived that way. 

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So now that my daughters are full, functioning adults. I really find that I'm asking them more, and my husband, too, how I'm showing up and, particularly, when I have an impact on them that I can see as negative. I'm like, "What exactly just happened there?" Sometimes I'm really aware of how... I always joke I'm like a lion, I jump in. I'm also a Leo, if that has anything significance for your people. But I jump in, and then, oops, the claws came out, they're really pads. And in my perception they're pads that the nails come out sometimes. But for some, it's like, "Wow, she just shows up."

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Alison: Are you an Enneagram Eight?

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Laura: Yes, totally, an Eight. And some days I just wish, so badly, that I wasn't an Eight. Again, because I actually do care about humans, so I don't want to just stomp on anybody. But I'm just incredibly passionate, particularly, when it comes to justice issues and when something's right or wrong, I just can't help myself. 

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Yes, so it's helped me just try to get more clarity around myself. And then, definitely, in terms of understanding how my immediate family shows up as a unit. I mean, we're using lots of tools as we try to navigate this new, completely, adult version of our family. Things that maybe we suffered through, we're done suffering through, and we're saying those things out loud. 

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So one of my daughters has just incredible empathy. I mean, she shows up super high empathy, but in that like, maybe you can relate to this, so sensitive. And not in the sense of she reacts to all that, but she internalizes it all, and it's just not fair. So we dump on her in the sense of all that emotion that we all have in our big selves. It just hides out in her cellular level and, at 25, she's figuring out that. You were telling about that in terms of the body keeps the score. We got to be really careful that we don't store those things. 

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And, so, she's learning all sorts of new techniques to work with that and, then, just affirming that. Affirming that she brings that and that's a gift, but at her own personal cost, it's not okay. And both my daughter and my husband are very much on the strategic thinking. My daughter, who is the sensitive one, is more like I am in terms of how she shows up in the world. The other two are very cerebral and very strategic in their thinking. 

So it's very common, in conversation, for them to say, "No, I don't agree with that." 

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Or "It's this or that." And I have strong opinions too, and I'm like, "Whoa, wow." So we're navigating that, and in some ways, in a completely new way and we're all learning. But one of the fun things that we declared a couple of years ago was we're all after the same outcome, which is to build close, authentic, relationship. 

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And, so, we're going to navigate some of these things, that hurt or we've pained each other, in a way that's always pro relationship. And that's really helped, and I think having that outcome-centered approach really lends itself to working with strengths. Because you can move from a point of personal sense of who you are into vulnerability when you know that the outcome is that you're going to stay together.

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Alison: I love that. That's beautiful, and it provides a language, this strength-based approach. When you know, you have a sense of your different kids' strengths, your spouse's strengths, your strengths. And, so, when things go awry and it happens, I can imagine. You're in a heated conversation and it's tempting to go to "You're always judging me."

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Or "You're always disagreeing with me." Or some of those irritants that surface in the best of relationships. And we can back up and go, "Oh, this is you being strategic."

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"Oh, this is you being an influencer."

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"Oh, this is you being high empathy." It helps to just destigmatize everything. It gives a name for things and we can start to name again. It doesn't mean we don't still have to work it out, and we still don't have to learn how to navigate each other. 

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But it is, I think, it's Adam Grant who talks about giving people, what does he say? He talks about giving people a roadmap to how to treat you. The strength-based approach really does help with that. It's like, "Here's a little glimpse, here's a little picture of who I am. This is how I'm going to be. This is the strengths I'm going to bring to the table."

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Again, if I'm really high on strategy and analysis, I'm going to analyze every single thing. And that's going to be great sometimes and sometimes that's going to be hard. It gives us all this destigmatizing language. 

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Laura: I think this really plays out in the workplace. Whether it's in those of you who work in a particular office setting, like a cohort that just stays together, or those of us who are in lots of different contexts, or doing community organizing. I think we can understand what each of us brings and a little bit of our default settings. 

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Again, I don't think that gives a carte blanche to always show up like that, but it gives us some, again, shared language. That's why I always do it with boards of directors, teams of organizations. I've used StrengthsFinder in a cohort model of leaders who are being trained in a nonprofit setting. 

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Again, it helps us make affirmation more particular. It helps us invite other strengths to join our strengths, because it turns out, actually, we're not autonomous beings. We co-depend all the time, we're interconnected. 

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So if I need the strategics in my world to show up. I'm like, "Hey, we're having a strategic whiteboard session, can you all join me? Because I need you to poke holes in what I'm thinking." We share those strengths like they're assets. Like, "Alison, I need your empathy to show up. I'm, obviously, missing this situation, tell me what I'm not feeling, seeing, or sensing."

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Alison: You're so true all the time at work, we need all the different strengths. And when we have a category and we have a way of naming them, we invite people to shine, and what a gift. And, I think, that as a team leader or I was an executive director of a nonprofit, to know everyone's strengths. 

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And to be able to say, in a moment, in a staff meeting, to say, "Okay, we've definitely been camping out in this realm. I'm interested in what those of you with the other set of strengths might be that we're missing. I need us to stop talking, and I want you all to show up." And as the leader, I also have to lever down. I often look at it as a mixing board, and especially, as I get older. I got to pull my brilliances, as I call it, down in the mix so that others can bring theirs up. And I'm almost 60, and part of that is making sure that in a group setting. 

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If there are, particularly, young professionals coming up, that we give them all the room in the world to answer the question, just like those of us who have been doing this for 40 years. And that's a discipline for someone, 

like me, who has something to say about everything, is to stop talking. Communication being my number one go-to, I just will always default to talking some more or activating some more. Sometimes we don't need to activate anything, we can just sit.

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Alison: Yes, there's so much humility in what you're saying. Again, I think, about that h-factor quality, the honesty and humility. And, again, the honesty of I'm imagining now in a work situation where you have all strategists, and know people who are executing. And you bring the executors in the room and they're like, "We can't execute this." Well, then, we got a problem. 

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And, so, the humility to know whatever your strength is. Same with me, with the empathy, it is such an important gift. And there are times when I need to hear other voices say, "Yes, what that person has been through is really hard."

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And, also, "There is a couple of other lenses through which we need to look here." Which is the value of consultation, when you're in my field. It's bringing other people, and I've learned how to invite people in next to me who have different strengths than I do. Because I need that, I need all of the different voices. 

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Tell me a little bit, Laura, you're also really knowledgeable about spiritual formation. Tell me a little bit about how this model, how knowing our strengths, correlates with our spiritual formation, and our relationship with God?

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Laura: Yes, obviously, the whole model is, I think, so closely associated with the idea of the gifting of the spirit. And you did that lovely reading from, The Message, the other day, on your podcast and just that sense of how silly it is that there would just be an eye by itself. I love how Eugene Peterson does his version of that, and it's just a perfect corollary to the strength, none of these exist unto themselves. And, I think, that is one aspect of understanding how God has gifted us; accepting that, celebrating that, owning that. 

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Again, I think, this false humility, I have learned to celebrate and name my unique contribution. Because turns out that's the asset that I steward as a child of God and if I don't name it, I can't utilize it to its greatest ability. I know that, and having, again, been in enough context where I'm pretty sure had I not been there with my unique blend, we wouldn't be where we are, and I love that. That's just how God works. And that doesn't mean there's nobody else who's important. But I had the opportunity of running this nonprofit for six years, that wasn't the plan. 

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Working with those experiencing homelessness, and I'm watching the fruit of a lot of what I invested now that I've gone. And just yesterday I got this big pat on the back about how I had built credibility in the organization, and a donor made $100,000 gift. And he said, "You know, ultimately, I did it because of the credibility you invested in that organization." And I thought my unique blend of WOO, and activation, and communication. 

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It started with the strengths, so it's the first thing we did was to understand my staff, to affirm my staff. And working in that context, what I feel most proud about is I also took this to the folks who we were serving. And when you look at a person on the street, who so many people walk by and say "He or she is worth nothing." 

The things people say about folks living on the street, it's so appalling to me and so tragic. And instead saying, "No, you are a princess who follows a king. And we know that in the midst of all of that we see with our eyes, that God sees you with a completely different lens." And that is a God-centered positivity. That's a God-centered maximizer. 

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And that dignity is these are words we can find to help people recover who they are. Because the most tragic thing about trauma, mental illness, and all the things that folks experiencing homelessness are experiencing, is the loss of sense of self. They need to be restored. God does that, and God does it through us, and I can preach a sermon here about it.

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Alison: I love that. You just bring tears to my eyes because I so share that with you. And what are the inherent strengths in those person? I mean, my husband and I, as well, have been deeply involved in some addiction recovery centers. Serving folks who have been on the streets for years, and just finding the strengths there, we love it. And naming them, and calling them out, and restoring that sense of dignity. Because we all are made in the image of God, and we all bear some beautiful. 

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I love that, Laura, and I love what you're saying. I love that you brought your strength. What I love about what you're saying is you brought your strengths to bring in money, to bring awareness. To, literally, build a program that served folks. And, also, you brought your strengths, literally, into the dignity, in every single one of those human interactions. Including, in terms of with the people that you served, I just love that, you're an amazing woman.

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Laura: I think the piece that I am most pleased about is I believe this so strongly about how to use our strengths. That I also recognized when I was done making my unique contribution in that setting. And, I mean, again, from the beginning to invest in the staff around me. That was just, again, we were stewarding their lives, however long they stayed with us. But one of the leaders that was there when I got there is now the executive director. And a few years into my tenure, she said, "I think one day I'd like to be an executive director." 

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And I said, "All right, let's get busy." And working with her strengths, working with her blindsides, we prepared her for that role. And, so, when I sit and see her on the front page of the paper getting awards from the city and all these things, and getting that $100,000 gift yesterday, I just smile. Because she grew as part of that journey, and she is getting to make her contribution. And it doesn't take anything away from mine, nothing. In fact, I get a little extra little pat in the back, even for that, and it just feels like this is the body of Christ.

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Alison: Preach, this is it. When we are leaning into our strengths, and I love even the claiming of the strengths. I love what you're saying, "These are my strengths, I'm going to steward them. It's better for everybody." Laura, you are amazing. Tell everybody who's listening how they could find you? How they could work with you, what you offer? I'd love to hear more.

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Laura: Yes, so my business name is Good Well Consulting. And I renamed my business about eight or nine years ago. Because that word combo, Good Well, is really the crux of what I care about. I love working with people who are interested in making a contribution in the world, doing a good, whatever that purpose is. 

But I'm also, because of my executing strengths, I really care that we do that well. For some, like when I work with nonprofits, a lot of that's capacity building, leadership development, infrastructure development. Thinking how the long-term is going to need a certain set of baselines so it can flourish. So not building a locomotive on a toy train track, trying to square that up. 

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It shows up in individual coaching. Where I'm looking to help people who are trying to find their voice, their contribution in the world, or maybe they're coming into a new role. I work with a lot of executives who are stepping into the role for the first time. They're not really sure how to navigate those waters. And then I have a third part, which is what I call the academy, and I'm putting courses online and I do live training as well. 

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I just launched a course on how to be an effective board member. A lot of your listeners, I know, are either on boards of directors for nonprofits, or they're contemplating making a contribution in that way, stewarding their strengths in that way. 

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But what I find when I get in boardroom after boardroom, that assembling a group of individuals who are cool does not a team make. So, again, how do we use the strengths? How do we use other personal work to show up in a team, in a productive way, serving the organization's good? So that's a fun thing, you can find that all on my website goodwellconsulting.com.

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Alison: Do you ever work with churches, church leadership boards? 

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Laura: I do work with churches.

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Alison: I could imagine that'd be a ripe, just helping the leadership teams.

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Laura: Lots of faith-based organizations, churches, missionaries, teams, I've done a lot of work with all sorts. At this point, and 30 years in, I've worked with a lot of groups.

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Alison: You're the best, Laura. Laura, you're the real deal. I love everything you do. What is bringing out the best of you, right now?

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Laura: Because I live in the corner of the planet that has had some really severe disasters. We are rebuilding a county that we had the largest, most destructive, fire in California, in 2018. And because of where I was in the county, at the time of the disaster, running this nonprofit, and because of my strengths, I've been very prominent in the bringing together of people from each of the corners of nonprofits, local government, state government, and then just humans who are in recovery. 

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So I'm really pushing into opportunities to build up the capacity, the health and well-being of our area, and then also looking for opportunities nationwide to work in disaster recovery. I think I'm really passionate about that because it really speaks into the vulnerability that is just beneath the surface for so many humans, in our country.

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Alison: And that's bringing out the absolute best in you, I have no doubt.

Laura: Oh, yes, it's super fun.

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Alison: Thanks so much for being here, Laura, thanks for taking the time. We'll link to everything that we talked about in the Show Notes, today, including if you want to take that StrengthsFinder test, reach out to Laura. Do you do individual coaching?

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Laura: Absolutely, and that's on my website as well. If you need to sign up, it's right there.

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Alison: All right, thank you, Laura.

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Laura: Thanks, Alison.

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< Outro >

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Alison: Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you'd take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

What a rich conversation with Enneacast podcast hosts Jesse Eubanks and Lindsey Lewis about the 9 different types of the Enneagram. We talk everything from mistyping women to Jesus, Kevin Hart, and the Apostle Paul. This is a great episode to share with your family, small group, or friends-it's an opportunity for honest conversations about your areas of brilliance. . .and the blind spots we all have.

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Here's what we cover:

1. The 9 different types

2. Your Enneagram number as one part of who you are

3. The Enneagram and narcissism

4. Why celebration is a discipline we all need to practice

5. How to love types that trigger us

6. The difference between comfort and shalom

7. What type was Jesus? Paul? Peter? Tom Brady?

Do you have questions for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

Want to receive free bonus content? ⁠⁠Sign up for my free weekly email here.

‍

Resources

• ‍The Enneacast Podcast with Jesse Eubanks and Lindsey Lewis
• More about Love Thy Neighborhood
• ‍Dr. Alison's episode with The Enneacast
• ‍relatebetter.com
• ‍How We Relate by Jesse Eubanks
• ‍Enneagram Workshops
• ‍When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat
• "Idolatry happens when we take good things and make them ultimate." -Tim Keller
• ‍Resources for support

‍

Related Episodes:

• Episode 49: Personality, the Big Five Traits, and Why Are We So Obsessed With Personality Types?
• Episode 50: 9 Types of Intelligence, the Trap of Comparison, and How to Connect More Authentically with God
• Episode 51: The 12 Common Thinking Traps, Mind Reading, Mental Filters, and How To Stop Taking Things Personally
• ‍Boundaries for Your Soul Series

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Please visit christianapp.org/mentalhealthtsf to donate today!
• Go to fuller.edu/bestofyou to learn more about Fuller's MS in Marriage and Family Therapy program.
• Get 35% off your first order of Sundays. Go to SundaysForDogs.com/BESTOFYOU or use code BESTOFYOU at checkout.

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to today's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I'm so glad you're here. So I have mentioned the Enneagram, on this podcast, numerous times and, almost, always one of you writes to me and says, "Can you please tell us more about the Enneagram?" And it is certainly one of my favorite and most well-loved psychology tool. So I thought it would be fitting to include it in this series. 

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And, so, I invited my new friends, Lindsey and Jesse, on to tell us all about it. They are the co-hosts of an amazing podcast called The EnneaCast. It's put out by their organization called Love Thy Neighborhood, which I'm really excited to learn more about from them today. Its mission is to disciple Christians to serve their neighbors, cultivate healthy relationships, and follow Jesus in their culture and context. You can check out The EnneaCast. It's a biweekly show that explores personality and the Enneagram, through the lens of the gospel. 

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I had a blast recording an episode for their podcast with them. I discovered a couple of kindred spirits on this journey of bringing spiritual formation and the Bible together, with all things becoming the best version of ourselves. And I am so excited to have Lindsay and Jesse on The Best of You podcast, today, to walk us through the Enneagram. Thanks for being here, guys.

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Jesse: Our pleasure. Yes, we had such a good time, we're just bringing the party over to your podcast

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Lindsey: Yes, just another chance to connect.

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Alison: You guys really have an amazing blend of just fun, and humor, and playfulness, and depth, a lot of depth, in what you're doing. It's a really neat synergy, so thank you.

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Jesse: Yes, it's touching, it's something that we really revere. People come on and they share deeply personal things with us, so there's a lot of tears shed. But also we will act like idiots and have a ton of fun. And, so, we really are trying to do this space where we're holding joy and sorrow together, both those things can co-exist.

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Alison: Exactly, and you're also both just so real. So you model, you provide the way for us to just become ourselves and share what we're really feeling, so, thank you.

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Jesse: Well, we're aiming, we're trying. We're doing the work, I mean, we're trying.

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Alison: I was thinking to myself, I was like, "Jamming the Enneagram into one-hour episode is going to be tough." But I do want to hear a little bit about how you each discovered the Enneagram and what it meant to you personally.

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Lindsey: Well, for me, I had heard about the Enneagram for a couple of years. I had actually taken a test many years before, with a counselor, and not followed up with the information. So then it became really popular while I was living overseas. And I was really resistant to it because I had taken many personality tests with our mission's organization. And I was like, "Don't we all have more to do with our lives than continue to naval gaze?"

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But, then, we unexpectedly found our self-state side, and somebody gave me a book, and I just thought, "Okay, let's just look into it." And within two chapters of the book, I was seeing the world in a completely different way, and it was something I really needed. It was how we always joke, "Why doesn't life come with a guidebook?" To me, it felt like the guidebook. I all of a sudden saw people in a new way, and had an understanding for how to navigate my relationships with them.

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Jesse: Yes, and then my story is one that might be familiar with some of your listeners. Which is I was on staff at a ministry and we'd spend all our time telling everybody about how Jesus loves them, and how you should become a part of the family of God, and we all just wanted to choke the life out of each other. 

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We were not getting along. We were super dysfunctional. We second-guessed each other. We bickered, we undermined each other's efforts. So we're presenting this picture of relational health, the beauty of the gospel, and the truth is that we were like airplane salesmen, and we hoped you didn't ask us if we knew how to fly. We just had no ability to actually do the work. 

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So some guys came in, two retired pastors and one of the tools they brought to help us with their mediation was this thing called The Enneagram. And it freaked me out, the first time that I took it, because it gave me such profound insights into myself that I had not been able to see before. Things that I was unwilling to take a look at. 

But it also gave me the ability to, suddenly understand why the people around me were acting the way that they were, and that it wasn't just to drive me crazy. And it wasn't just because they were immoral, and it wasn't just because it was from these much deeper places. And really the fundamental reality is none of us see the world the same. We're all approaching life different, and the Enneagram gave language for us to be able to talk about those things in ways that brought unity to us instead of driving us further apart.

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Alison: That's beautiful. So tell us, what is the Enneagram and why do you think it's so different from other tools that people may be more accustomed to?

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Lindsey: I'll give the short answer and then you can give the long answer. 

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Jesse: Yes, deal.

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Lindsey: Usually it's the opposite. He's got the wordsmith and I'm like "Here's five pages of an answer." But I really just look at the Enneagram, it's a personality tool that talks about the nine archetypes that we see in humanity. And it can be more useful than other tools because of its flexibility and movement. So it's not just telling you, "This is your type, okay, goodbye." 

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It's actually asking you to be curious about your life story. What's brought you here? What are those triggers that are activating you in your daily life, that you're completely unaware of? Like Jesse said, we're wearing these lenses that we don't even know we have on and we don't realize other people have different ones on, and that it's changing the way we behave and the way we relate. 

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And, so, I love that the Enneagram gives you movement and tools for this is an area where you could grow. This is an area where you could move out of your ego response and find a truer way, to take your white knuckles off the steering wheel a little bit.

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Jesse: Yes, the way that I often say it is that the Enneagram, it's a theory of personality that explores the patterns in the ways that we perceive process and present to the world. And that all of us have particular fixations, and the Enneagram really attempts to unearth what those fixations are, in part, so that it can invite us to begin to confront those trances and fixations that we focus so much on. 

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"Okay, this is how I'm going to get my security, my safety, my value." And begin to invite us into a broader way of seeing. And as Christians, when we apply the gospel to that, it's the invitation into what does the abundant life look like? 

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Well, at some level, that is definitely going to include that my way of seeing is not quite as narrow. That there's a broader way and that Jesus reveals that in the gospels, in His own character, and His own way of being, and that He's inviting us into that as well. 

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Lindsey: Mm-hmm.

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Alison: Yes, I like how you guys are describing it as there's movement, there's flexibility, and that was, for me, it's so different. We've talked in this series about different traits that have been researched in psychology that are fixed, and different types of intelligence. But with the Enneagram, there's so much richness and so much depth to it, as you guys are getting at, in that it reveals both strengths and the weaknesses. That are the very things that fuel us and that become our strengths. 

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The gifts we have to offer the world can be the very things that are our Achilles' heel. That's the stunning part of it because we all know that about ourselves. And that's why when you look into it, you're like, "Oh, it's actually showing me, this thing I pride myself on. But then there's the dark side of that that I try to hide." They're both right there in the Enneagram.

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Jesse: Yes, it makes me think of there was this TV show, on Netflix, called Kevin Hart Can't Stop. And, of course, Kevin Hart is the famous comedian, and he's insanely successful. He's got hundreds of people that are employed by him. And the same thing that makes him so charismatic, and funny, and entertaining, and such a great, successful business person. It's also the thing that, in the show is revealed, it's also destroying his life. 

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And, to your point, Alison, the Enneagram helps us understand what thing is my strength. But what thing am I expecting to do something it is incapable of doing for me, but I continuously expect it to be able to do those things. 

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Alison: That's a great example, that's so interesting. I want to spend some time going through the nine types. So as best you can give us an overview, let's just go ahead and run it.

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Lindsey: Okay, well, we will start with Type One. So Type One we call The Reformer, and these people are driven by this desire to be good, morally right, people of integrity. And what that looks like is they're honest, they're hardworking, they're ethical, they're conscientious, they're reliable. 

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But the unresourceful side, like you said, the other side of that same coin is that they can become judgmental. There's a good way and a bad way. They have very black and white thinking. They're rigid, even in their physical bodies, their shoulders are up. They're so diligently working; they're trying so hard. They become resentful because no one else is trying to be good in the way they are and demanding, critical of others. And the big thing for the one is that they have this inner critic that's just constantly driving them. Like, "Here's a problem."

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"This is wrong."

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"You're not doing it good enough."

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"You're bad."

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"You need to try harder." But then that comes out as also a judgment of others. And, so, people think, "Well, they can dish it, they can take it." And actually, they can't, they're very sensitive because they already have that megaphone going on in their minds. 

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Alison: That's such a good description. I have so many ones, very very close to me in my life, and that angst. And there's another way of putting it, the perfectionist, is that fair to say? That angst stuff, I don't think people realize that inner critic is just as loud as any criticism that is flowing out toward anybody else. 

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So it's a really beautiful and, again, as we've been talking about, fraught, there is the beauty in it. They bring so much goodness, so much of that loyalty. These are folks who are just doing it, and then that dark side of that resentment or that anger, that criticism, that can really trip somebody up. You put that so well, it just filled my heart with love for those ones that...

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Lindsey: Yes, me, too.

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Jesse: Yes, and, Alison, it's probably worth mentioning this, is that our working philosophy is that all human beings have all nine of these, that we're about to describe, as ingredients in our personality to greater or lesser degrees. 

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So as we say this regardless of whether we come across one you're like, "That sounds like me, verbatim." There's probably going to be a lot of other elements. You'll hear that and go, "Well, that also sounds a lot like me." And, to Lindsay's point earlier, that's one of the beauties of the Enneagram is this fluidity. This ability to go, "I'm a complicated person."

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Alison: I love that you said that, Jesse. We just did a series on the podcast on Internal Family Systems, which is the topic of my first book. And, so, we did a six weeks deep dive into this idea that we all are made up of parts. And one of the things that has helped me the most with the Enneagram is to think about my primary Enneagram number as the part of me that's closest. 

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But then I really do have relationships to all the different parts. Some are further out, some I need to bring a little bit more in and, ultimately, and probably you guys have arrived at this, too. I assume that Jesus is the ultimate representation of all nine parts. Is that the whole of all?

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Jesse: Yes.

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Lindsey: Yes.

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Jesse: Which is why He's unpredictable when you read the Gospels. Unlike every other character in Scripture or any story, there's an extent to which we can guess how the character is going to behave. But Jesus is totally unpredictable, He acts this way in this moment, this way in the next moment, and it's because He is much more wholly integrated than any of us are. And, so, yes, we say He's the fullness of all nine types, in their full expression.

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Alison: That's so cool, I love that.

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Jesse: Okay, so back to your question, you asked about Type Two. So Type Two, we call these folks The Helper. Some people like to call them The Be Friender, these are like nurses. I feel like these people live with scrubs on all the time, they just take care of people. So these folks are generous, they are supportive, they're encouraging, they're thoughtful, caregiving,

they're compassionate, and they are sacrificial. They will give you the shirt off their backs. They will clear their calendar. These folks love to give themselves to others that are in need. 

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However, when they're unhealthy they, actually, become intrusive. I mean, if you think of the mother on Everybody Loves Raymond, who lived across the street, in all her goodness just wanted to help, she just didn't have any boundaries. They become possessive. They can become co-dependent, where they seek out people with high needs so that they always feel needed themselves, to fill the emptiness inside. 

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They can become people pleasers. They need to be needed, and it can really shock people. They can be so warm, but if they feel underappreciated, they can become, quickly, very angry. And the number one struggle that folks that are Type Twos struggle with is just the issue of boundaries. Boundaries are just going to be an ongoing, lifelong, journey for folks to figure out where they end and other people begin. 

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Alison: That's so well put, just so many of those. I think there are also a lot of Twos in the therapy world.

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Lindsey: Yes, and, I think, a lot of women, depending on if you're below the Mason-Dixon line, and especially, if you were raised evangelical, that a lot of us have this as one of the characters inside of us. It's we were told, "This is who you're supposed to be." So you're either struggling against, "That's not who I am." Or you're over-emphasizing that part of you to some extent.

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Alison: And we talked about this a little bit when I came on your podcast, but a couple of thoughts on that. One is almost every woman, as a Christian counselor, as my clients would go through and take the Enneagram, they almost always test out a Twos, initially. Because we're so supposed to look like Twos, as Christian women. I write about this in The Best of You. I tested out as a two. I thought I was a two for a very long time, only to realize I wasn't. 

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And, so, I do think that's important for women who are listening. A couple of people have asked me about gender and the Enneagram and it's something I wanted to touch on, with you guys. And it doesn't just relate to the Two, I'm sure that men are socialized to be certain types of numbers as well. But just to always keep that open mind of what is that mask, in a way, that we feel like we're supposed to wear. That isn't really reflective of the true inner workings of our hearts. So I love that you said that. 

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Lindsey: That's good. All right, we'll go to the Three, this is our achiever. So these are people with a lot of energy, with drive, they're very efficient, they're goal-oriented, they're motivated, and they're also motivating. People are just drawn to them, and they're competent, and they're very adaptable. 

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They can go from this group of people to that group of people, and alter their personality to really make those people feel comfortable. I think you're the one who says, Jesse, that they're always creating the shortest distance between the other person and themselves. So it's like, "Whatever I have to do to make this a short bridge, I can become that."

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Alison: That's well put.

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Lindsey: Mh-hmm, good job, Jesse. 

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Jesse: Thank you. 

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Alison: I resonate with that.

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Lindsey: Yes, but the flip side of that is they're very chameleon-like. They're very image conscious, like what are they projecting out there? They can be out of touch with their inner authentic self because they're always morphing into these different personalities. And they can be inauthentic, addicted to positive attention and manipulative, they can use their powers for good or their powers for not so good.

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Jesse: Mh-hmm, they get lost in between the public role that they're portraying, at that moment. Whether that is, "I'm a competent, nonprofit leader." Or whether that is "I'm a business person." Whatever it is, but they get confused between what it means to portray success and then who they actually are. And, so, a lot of Threes have got to really do the work of coming home to themselves, and beginning to go, "Who am I?" And the big catch for Threes is that they become addicted to adoration.

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So the applause of other people have a very intoxicating effect on the Three, that it doesn't hold on other types. But for the Three, there's almost like they can get drunk off of it. It just feels like love. And, so, the three has to do the work of separating out the admiration of others, with genuine, actual, love from the people in their life that it matters. 

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Lindsey: I've been doing a lot of reflecting. I have really high Three, but when I initially tested, I, actually, on the test only had 20%, I just found my original results. Because my achieving was so much the one, so much being the good girl, doing it all right, following the rules, very rigid, all that. But I was reflecting on my life story and things, over the last year, and I just realized all these times in my life where I had that, whatever the image was. 

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So I was a cheerleader and that was who I was. At school, I was like, "I am a cheerleader, this is what I do. I have this role." And it was very attention-receiving. And then my faith didn't really jive with how that was going. So I left cheerleading, and then it was I have to create a new identity for who I am at school, and I did that. 

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And then when we moved to Louisville, I really wanted to be on the worship team. Because I really love to sing, it's passion, it's one way that I could lead as a woman in the church. And I worked really hard at that, and I became part of this core team. And then when we went overseas I had this moment, this day, a memory that I have where I was rehearsing for Sunday and, all of a sudden, it hit me, I think, it was my last Sunday. And I thought, "I'm not going to be a worship leader anymore. That's no longer my title and I wept. 

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I was so sad that I made a place for myself in that spot, but then I became a missionary. And, so, then I was a missionary, and that's a great title, and I was a little embarrassed by that one because I never felt like I fully lived into it. I never really achieved it. And then, unexpectedly, we had to come back stateside, and then I was no longer a missionary. 

And, I think, all of the ones, I was in my mid-30s, it was the right time for a midlife crisis. And it was, all of a sudden, it was enough. You can't pick one thing that's going to be you are this, that's not who you are.

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But it is, I mean, it's been seven years since then and I'm still cultivating what are those deeper, authentic, pieces of myself that remain, and I've found a few. But it's so automatic to be like, "Well, now I am this."

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"Well, now I am Lindsey, the co-host of The EnneaCast."

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"Now I am a mother to these children, am I doing that in a great way." And now that's my identity. And then you have a bad day mothering and now you're no longer that identity. And, so, it can be really tricky because some of those things we just naturally have things we do. 

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Alison: They're good things, even, and we can make an identity. And this is true of the Three, it's turning that identity into the thing that gives me worth, that makes me a success. "I am the best mom."

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"I am the best worship leader." And it's subtle because some of them are really good things.

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Lindsey: Yes.

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Alison: But I love what you're saying, there's so much self-awareness in that. That realizing you were just trading one identity for another. And at the end of it, it's like, "Wait a minute, can I just be enough as me and what does that really look like? What does that really mean?" It doesn't mean I won't be a great mom; it doesn't mean I won't be a great worship... but that thing isn't the thing that I'm striving for. 

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I think a lot about athletes, I don't want to go down too much of a tangent here. But I think about Michael Jordan, Tom Brady, I don't know, there's so much of that identity and it can propel this excellence. I think of the word excellence, that it isn't bad. Excellence is a good thing in and of itself, however, at what cost and what happens when that goes away. Do you crumble, to your Kevin Hart example, what's underneath that, at what cost? And I love Lindsay that you're painting that picture, that it's really easy to fall into.

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Lindsey: Yes, absolutely.

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Jesse: And, I think, we're getting into, Tim Keller uses the phrase, "When good things become ultimate things." And I think that the Enneagram gives us a pathway to begin to go, "What good gifts from God are present in my life, but in what ways have I made them ultimate? In what ways have I made them emotionally salvific?" I want them to be the things that define me as a person and God, in His mercy, often has to come and tear it all down. 

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Lindsey: Yes.

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Jesse: Because it's a reminder to us that we have been bestowed with value that has nothing to do with our performance. But often God has to let us suffer loss, let us suffer failure. He has to break the illusion, and that's a painful journey, but it's also the only way forward. 

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Lindsey: Mm-hmm.

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Alison: Yes, thank you for sharing that. That is so powerful and so resonant. Even the good roles, I love that. I can be the best friend, I can be the best mom, whatever it is can become, I love that phrasing, can become emotionally salvific. When in fact it's not the thing, at the end of the day, that's incredible. 

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< Music >

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Jesse: Well, let's talk about Type Four. So these folks are called The Originalist and they're driven by a really deep desire for authenticity. A desire to really live into the truth of who they are. They have a strong resistance towards just playing the part for the sake of fitting in, for the sake of whatever. But they want to be true to the truth of whatever's going on inside of them and who they are, so driven by authenticity.

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When these folks are healthy, that comes out in a lot of amazing ways. These folks are super creative, highly expressive, they are deep. So if you're hanging out with a Four, you know you're about to have some good conversation, you're going to go deep. They're authentic. They are intense, so when they show up you can just feel it coming off of them. 

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They have a heightened sense of beauty. So they walk into a space and they are paying attention to the aesthetics and the beauty of that place. And they are emotionally intuitive, they give language to other people, "It seems like you're experiencing X, Y, Z?" Fours are very gifted at understanding the emotional experiences of others. 

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Now when it turns dark, when it turns on its head and becomes toxic. When it goes the wrong direction, they become over-reactive. So something happens and they, emotionally, backfill that situation until it goes off like a bomb. So they overreact to a situation. They become temperamental, they become dramatic, they become snobbish. So I say that they become like the cool police, "Oh, that's cool. Oh, that's lame."

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"That's cool, that's lame." Stop pointing at me, Lindsey Lewis. They become dissatisfied and feel misunderstood, and one of the benchmarks of the Four is that they become addicted to differentiation. Whatever others are experiencing, whatever the common thing is in the room. They can't accept it as part of themselves because it feels like a threat to their identity. 

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"The only way forward, for me, is to be fully authentic, which means I can't be replicated. I've got to be entirely my own person." And they fixate on it, to the point that they can end up really turning a blind eye towards beautiful things in their life. Because there's lots of common things that are deeply beautiful. 

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Lindsey: They're like the pendulum from the Three. They're like, "We're going to go the opposite way."

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Jesse: Yes, they're like the fail-safe for the Three.

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Alison: Well, it's so interesting listening to you because they do sound like opposites. And, yet, both could be susceptible to that cult of identity in this for different reasons, and that's the whole thing with the Enneagram. It's just the motivation is different. 

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So the Three is trying to get that identity that makes them the best, or gives them success, or gives them recognition. Whereas the Four is trying to get that identity to make them unique, make them special.  But there's still a falseness, whatever the motivation is, there's a falseness to the pursuit if we're not careful about it, so interesting.

Lindsey: Yes.

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Jesse: Yes, and we didn't talk about this here, so we're not going to go too far down this. But it's worth saying that Types Two, Type Three, and Type Four are in a thing called The Heart Triad, and they are fundamentally searching for identity. There's a layer in which somewhere in the mystery of nature and nurture, they feel as though they lost an identity, and that they now need to go create one in order to have value and love among their community. So those folks are oriented around, "Who am I?"

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"What is my identity as a person?"

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Lindsey: Well, number Five, that is the beginning of our Head Triad, speaking of the triad. So this is going to have a much different feel. These people are looking for security and safety, more so than identity. 

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So for the Five, we call them The Investigators. These are our epic head types. They are driven by desire to be competent, knowledgeable, they want to know all about how things work. They want to know the intricate details. And when they're resourceful, they're scholarly, they're wise, they're very objective, they're not ruled by emotions. They're intelligent, they're very reflective, and they can be very witty, that dry sense of humor. 

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Jesse: There are a few places that are more enjoyable than sitting next to a Type Five, in a meeting. Because they will make incredible jokes and it's a one-time performance, and you need to be sitting right next to them when it happens, it's great.

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Lindsey: Yes, they're just going to, kind of, say it under their breath.

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Jesse: Yes.

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Lindsey: When they're not resourceful, though, they can become reclusive, antisocial. They're in their study on YouTube or Google, doing their thing. They don't really feel the need for relationships and they can act superior because they're so knowledgeable about things. And they become relationally detached, cold, and they have a scarcity mindset. Like "I need to protect my resources. As in my physical, my energy, but then also maybe my money, or my talents, or my time." It's very much a scarcity mindset.

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Jesse: Yes, so there's a relational stinginess, that can really overtake their life. And the lie that the Five, often, believes is that they're just being prudent. "I'm just not being emotionally over-reactive." And what happens, over time, is that they train themselves, subconsciously, they don't mean to into a space in which they try to turn their emotions off. They try to withdraw from as many relationships as possible. And they even try to get to where they, themselves, don't want to have needs. So they begin to neglect their own needs as well because everything is about resources.

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Lindsey: Yes.

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Jesse: And it's like, "Anytime I interact with you, you're using my relational fuel."

"Anytime that I have a personal desire for something, now I've got to go figure out how I'm going to take care." So their fixation is just around resources. 

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Lindsey: Yes.

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Alison: So interesting because we've been talking, again, in this series, about some of these like introversion. Some of these traits that are more, genetically by. Not that every Five is an introvert because I don't know that that's, necessarily, true, although, I'm hearing some components of that. 

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Lindsey: Mm-hmm. 

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Alison: And then we've been talking a little bit about different sacred pathways, different forms of intelligence, and how I'm just listening to you, I'm thinking of the Fives I love. There are a lot of ways in which some forms of, especially, evangelical churches aren't super tailored toward a Five, in some ways. Where there's a quiet, there's a contemplation, there's a need to be a little bit cynical, not in an unhealthy way. That there's such a need for us to consider all different types and not sideline folks. 

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My spouse doesn't want to go to all these social events and it's like, "Well, that isn't the benchmark of what makes one a good Christian." Someone who is more inclined toward being a Five may need to think, "What does that look like in corporate worship?" It might look a little different for a Five than it's going to look for a Two.

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Lindsey: Yes, I think Fives are naturally more contemplative than some of the rest of us, especially, The Heart Triad. They might never get to a place where they're going to be super expressive in worship. That there are spiritual disciplines that when they're really trying to get in touch with their heart, with their soul, and relationship with God. They can be contemplative masters while the rest of us are just barely eking out silence and solitude. Some of us, two minutes is too long and for them they can really go to that deep place within themselves. 

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Alison: I love that. That's what I love about my Fives, they just keep it real, what matters not what's for show.

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Jesse: Yes, so type Six are commonly referred to as The Loyalist. And, so, these folks are driven by a really deep desire for security. So we talk about the whole triad Ones. Six is one like times two, it just is a very pronounced in what drives them as people. When that comes out in a healthy way, I say that they represent the covenant of God. These are covenant people. When they say "Yes", they hold to that yes. When they say "No", it means no. 

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But they will make deep sacrifices for the sake of the community. They're faithful people, they're committed people, highly responsible. The original Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts of America, they are ready for whatever comes. They are dependable, they're systematic, they are honorable people. They don't tend to have a lot of deception in them, and they're committed to security. They want our communities to be places of safety.

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So when we live in a country right now where there's unexpected violence, Sixes tend to be a lot of the personality type that are going, "What protocols can we put in place to keep our children safe?" So Sixes are proactive thinkers. But as we all know, when we are anticipating things that have not yet happened, it can really spin out of control. 

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And, so, for Sixes, they can become catastrophic thinkers. So they just think all the worst-case scenarios because they need to plan for all the worst-case scenarios. And then, over time, what happens is that that becomes their go-to way of thinking, where they almost become allergic to hope. Allergic to the possibility that there could be good days ahead. They become skeptical of other people. So their disposition, initially, is always to stand back and observe and the other people have to prove their loyalty. 

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They are anxious, they're self-doubters, they can be uptight, rigid, wary, and reluctant. And the thing is that with all of our types, perception is reality. And the big thing that the Sixes, their ongoing battle in life is just because it might be true it doesn't determine that it is true. And just because inside of who you are, as a person, you think the other person might have this other motivation. It doesn't actually decide that they do have that motivation. 

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So projection is just an ongoing struggle for Sixes that they always have to be mindful of, and really ask themselves, "How much am I thrusting another person into a role, when actually there's no evidence that that person is that way." And, so, they have to wrestle through that. 

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Alison: Yes, minding your mind, and we just did a whole series on this really minding what conclusions you're jumping to, that's so good.

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Jesse: Yes, I'll tell you this, though, my wife is a Six and if you got kids, having a Six spouse is pretty awesome when you go to the doctor. Because about nine times out of 10, my wife knows more than the doctor because they are researchers, they study, they check things out. They do not just let the paperwork decide things. They are going to make sure everyone has been, adequately, cared for, and they're not just going to get lost in just pushing that paper down the line.

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Lindsey: I'm guessing you don't run out of toilet paper, and Kleenexes, and all those things as well.

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Jesse: Very rarely.

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Lindsey: They're stocked and prepared.

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Jesse: Yes, I did, actually, a few years back I was like "We look the Beverly Hillbillies when we go on vacation. We really got to dial this back. So we have a little too much protocol going on vacation with us."

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Lindsey: That's hilarious, especially, when they're little, oh, you got a lot of protocol.

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Jesse: Yes, and in my wife's case she's got a Seven Wing, we'll talk about the Seven, in a second, but I say that there's regular Lindsay, so my wife's name is Lindsay. So there's regular Lindsay and then there's vacation Lindsay because she learns how to let it go. 

Lindsey: Oh, that's good. 

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Jesse: So not this Lindsey, this Lindsey is married to Drew. I'm married to my wife, Lindsay.

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Lindsey: Yes, well, speaking of the Sevens, the Sevens are our Enthusiasts. I say the Sevens are Peter Pan. If you think about all the perks of Peter Pan and all the pitfalls of Peter Pan, that is your Seven. So they are driven by a desire to enjoy life and to experience all that life has to offer. Whether that's reading every book or going to every resort, it's different for each seven, but they love that endless possibilities. 

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So when they're resourceful, they are so joyful, they're optimistic, they're very child-like energetic. They're optimistic about what you can accomplish, and what I can accomplish, and what we can accomplish together. They're imaginative, they're very quick thinking because they're just ready to go. 

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But the flip side of that is they can become unreliable and scattered. They want to wait for the best possible situation before they're going to commit. So they are like, "Well, I might come to your party on Friday, but if something better comes along I'm going to go do that, instead."

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They are indulgent, they can come across as very juvenile. Like that Peter Pan like "I won't grow up, I refuse. I don't want to go to school." And they're irresponsible, and then they can become demanding because they do not want others to infringe upon their freedom. To have all the joy and all the excess that life has to offer.

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Jesse: Yes, earlier, I just talked about Kevin Hart, but just in thinking about comedians, in general. Comedians, in general, probably, the highest type among them would be Type Seven. Now, the other thing that's common among comedians is addiction. There's a lot of overdoses that happen within the comedic community, and it's because the number one struggle for Sevens, they are the most sensitive to pain. 

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And, in fact, a lot of Sevens, and this is true, we will get complaints from Type Sevens, about our show, because they say "You're so negative about us." And we'll go back and we'll check the minutes, we'll check the notes, and it's, verbatim, the exact same as we've done for everybody else. It's that they feel it with a much greater intensity. They are terrified at an existential level of being trapped in pain, and that's why there's a tendency to over-indulge. 

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So too much of a good thing is almost enough for the Seven. It's a journey for them to learn how to live in reality. Without running off to the next exciting adventure in their mind by distracting themselves or distracting the people around them. So a lot of times if we do workshops we get to this, and Sevens, it's hard for them to not make jokes, to lighten the mood, because to them it feels cruel what we're doing. 

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Lindsey: Yes, I've heard a lot of teachers say, too, that as children or young people, that the Fours and the Sevens can often look really similar. Because they're these people with the big emotions, the big highs and the big lows. And somewhere, like you said, nature and nurture, we don't really know, it's like the forest land in the deep end of the pool 

and they decide "This is where I'm going to stay. I'm really comfortable with pain." Anything that's not dark is inauthentic. And then the Seven say no, "We're going to completely put that away, we refuse to look at it."

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Jesse: They're on the end with the water slides, and the squirt guns, and the pool floaties.

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Lindsey: So those two can have a hard time with each other. A Four and a Seven, together, trying to work through something, but really they are what each other needs, to achieve balance

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Jesse: Because one brings the gift of lament and we need that gift, and the other one brings the gift of celebration. And a lot of times what we see Christian radio is all about the Seven energy, it's celebration all the time. And Four is bringing energy that challenges some of that, but we also know we should not just sit, perpetually, in grief.

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Lindsey: Yes.

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Jesse: We need to learn the discipline, this sounds strange to say, but the discipline of celebration, and Sevens bring that into the room and say, "We need to feast because good things are happening."

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Alison: That's right, and sometimes we need to take a break. We need healthy escapes, I always say, we need healthy pleasure, we need healthy comfort. They can bring that to us, that's beautiful. You guys are amazing, it's super helpful. 

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< Music >

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Jesse: Well, we're going to round things out with the last two. So this is actually going into what I refer to as the body triad, some people call it the gut triad. These folks interpret the world through bodily gut instincts, street smarts, and it's at an instinctual level. And these folks are searching for freedom, autonomy, the ability to make their own decisions and live by their own convictions is really key for these folks. So these are types Eight, Nine, and One. 

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So Type Eight, these folks are called The Protector. These folks are driven by a deep desire to be able to protect themselves from injustice and to protect other people from injustice. They have a strong orientation around distribution of power and power dynamics, in a relationship. And when they are healthy and using this in healthy ways, these folks are strong. The rest of us are running on 1/10, they run on 2/20.

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They need less sleep, they can go longer, they can do more. They're freaks of nature in that regard, they can just do so much. They are natural leaders because of their disposition. Their bodily chemistry, they tend to be broad-shouldered. They just stand their ground more, when they're there you know they're there. They're commanding, they're prophetic, they're assertive, they're self-confident, they're intense, tons of energy. 

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When they're healthy, and this is always an interesting one, when they're really healthy, a lot of type Eights become therapists. And when they're healthy, they are the exact opposite of the stereotypes of the Eight.

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Alison: I heard Dan Allender say he's an Eight.

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Jesse: He is an Eight. We had him on the show, and he's a great example of when an Eight really takes on empathy and joins in another person's pain and suffering. They learn how to harness their own strength. Instead of running from their own pain, they begin to make peace with it. And, so, strength doesn't become the solution to everything. 

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So when they become unhealthy, these folks become aggressive, they become domineering. They become bulls in a China shop. There's no reverence for other people's tenderness and there's no reverence for their own. Because tenderness is anti-strength, and strength is what will win the day. 

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So they don't do a good job when they feel slighted or attacked by others, they become vengeful. And because Eights are often very good at asserting themselves, it turns into an arm wrestling match and they do usually win. There's a pleasure in fighting. There's a pleasure in arguments. They can take it on, almost, recreationally. And the biggest thing is this, if someone has told you this over and over again, in your life, consider how much Eight you have. And here it is, "I don't feel heard by you."

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"You don't listen to me." When an unhealthy Eight gets going, their energy is so blinding to them that it's impossible. It's Mount Everest for them to think that the other person's point of view has any validity, and that the other person isn't just whining and complaining. So the Eight has got to learn how to harness their strength. And my pastor always says, "Meekness is not weakness, it's controlled strength." And that's the journey for the Eights.

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Alison: It's so interesting because, to me, what I hear in some of the unhealthy is classic features of narcissism. But I would recommend, there's a wonderful book When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat  a wonderful friend of mine. And he actually talks about narcissism, the faces of it because the Eight is the stereotypical, I think the Threes in the Eights. But he says, "Mm, actually, it shows up in just subtler forms in other types." It's just the most stereotypical form in the unhealthy Eight. Is that fair to say? Would you agree with that? 

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Jesse: Yes, it tends to be that Eight and Seven energy, both. Because the Seven, when they're really unhealthy, they have a narcissistic view, that's about, "Well, how does this affect me?" And, so, when it merges with that Eight's appetite, Eights just have this big appetite for intensity, especially, like "Let's go skydiving, and go whitewater rafting, and go run the meeting, and start a new business."

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Lindsey: Eat a whole cake. 

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Jesse: It just their appetite is just so massive. And, so, the big journey for the Eight really is in childhood they often had to be bigger than they actually were. Something happened where they weren't big enough to handle the problem but they had to become. So sometimes people had severe illness, they were hospitalized a lot as children, sometimes, they grew up in families where there was a lot of fighting. 

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And, so, what happened is that, that child ate, had to sacrifice their own childhood innocence to be bigger than they were. And what happened is that the byproducts of innocence are things like tenderness, things like vulnerability, things like gentleness, those are the things that come out. And because the Eight sacrifices in their childhood, those things tend to be underdeveloped. 

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So the journey for the Eight is to go back. When you see an Eight around a baby, or you see an Eight around a puppy, or you see an Eight around some situation where they perceive innocence in the other. You see that come out in the Eight, but the Eight has to also learn they deserve that as well. That same kindness and tenderness, and then out of that a sweetness can begin to emerge that is such a gift to everybody.

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Alison: Beautiful.

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Lindsey: Like I told you at the beginning, my original story with the Enneagram was learning that people had these other lenses. And the hardest number for me, at that time, were these type Eights. That I was so focused on being appropriate in every situation. Always being the good girl, being very restrained, keeping my anger in. And then here are these people just living life without a seatbelt. 

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And I really thought, "Oh, those people are, literally, just choosing to be quote-unquote "Bad people". And when I read about The Eight, in an Enneagram book, I cried because I just understood. And a lot of people struggle with that, with The Eight, if they don't have an aggressive energy about them. That it feels like "Well, why do you get to come in here and suck out all the oxygen in the room?"

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"Why do you get to always be at the head of the table when the rest of us are waiting for someone to give us something." And to understand where the Eights are coming from really helps me appreciate, and then want to dig deep and find some of that Eight within myself. 

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Maybe there are times where you could take initiative, you could be more assertive. You could care more about justice and speak up, that we can learn so much.

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Jesse: And we need to be mad about some things. There are things in this world that deserve our anger, and it is a holy, and good, and appropriate thing to be mad about those things.

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Alison: Isn't it hypothesized that Martin Luther King Jr., was probably an Eight?

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Lindsey: I've heard Eight and I've heard One. 

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Jesse: Yes, I've heard both of those, too, yes.

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Alison: And then I wonder, just listening, I wonder if Paul, the Apostle Paul, who knows, I mean,  that's just speculative.

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Jesse: Paul is long-winded, I'm going One.

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Lindsey: I also give him the One, yes, because he's all about "Don't do this. Don't do this. This is the way." Follower."

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Jesse: Eights tend to be pretty to the point and sometimes I'm like "You know Paul, I know the Word of God." I understand, but come on man.

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Lindsey: I could see Peter. I could see Peter being an Eight. You know like cut off the ear.

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Alison: That's a good point. 

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Lindsey: "I'm just going to speak my mind." 

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And Jesus is like, "Whoa, no, that's not it."

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Or "Yes, that is it." He was very impulsive. Okay, well, we've talked about the pendulum swing between the Three and the Four, even though they're in the heart triad. Well, I think this is an equal pendulum swing in the gut triad between the Eight and the Nine. 

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So you have someone who's constantly stirring the waters, and then we come to The Nine and these are The Peacemakers. They want the waters to not have a single ripple internally or externally. These people are driven by a desire for peace within themselves and within the world. A wholeness that comes from a harmony of humanity.

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So when these people are healthy, they are seeing all sides. They can listen to an argument and say, "Oh, that makes sense." And then they hear the other side and they're like, "And that makes sense, too." And the two people arguing are like "Wait, what? You can't agree with both of us."

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And they're like, "No, I can." And they're easygoing, they're friendly. These people are flexible and calm. They're very receptive, they're great listeners. But the flip side is, is they can be passive to a fault. Listening without ever, actually, saying what they think or knowing what they think. They're stubborn, but it's a silent stubbornness, often, of digging in of heels. 

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They are conflict-averse, so even when there needs to be some of that healthy conflict, they will resist and they'll procrastinate. Partly because they have a hard time prioritizing because they see the value of all the things that need to be done. 

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And, so, it's hard to choose what I'm going to do in this moment, and then they can become lazy. That it's like, "Well, I don't know what to do so I'm going to just do a quick social media check, or I'm going to play game on my phone or take a quick little nap." And they can be really indecisive about deep things. About "What are my desires? Where do I want my life to go?" And indecisive for the people around them as well, about their goals and where things are going. 

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Jesse: Or even, "Hey, where do you want to go to dinner?" And if you've ever immigrated to a new country, it takes less time to do that than it does for a Nine to decide what the dinner plans are. 

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Lindsey: It's true, they can end up really sleepwalking through their entire life, and that's not good.

Alison: And so pleasant to be around. 

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Lindsey: They're so wonderful to be around, yes.

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Alison: And when you love a Nine, just to be really mindful of not taking advantage of that illusion. I think this is true of the Twos, too, not taking advantage of their helpful nature. But learning to love a Nine and a Two in a different way. But trying to learn to, actually, invite them to speak their mind, to be a little bit walking into conflict. Because it's so easy, they're so nice to be around, you can just take advantage of that, almost, and subtly reinforce what they actually need to work through. 

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Lindsey: Yes, I always say if you, I actually learned this the hard way because my husband is a Nine. And when I was pregnant with our secondborn, I had lots of cravings. I always have cravings. I'm always like, "I know exactly what I want to eat. I know where I want to go." But I'll be nice and say, "Oh, well, where do you want to go?"

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Jesse: Which you don't really mean?

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Lindsey: No, but for the majority of our marriage, he doesn't care, I get to go wherever I want. But we were on this Enneagram journey, so he's trying to cultivate some desires and starting with the easiest, the lighter things. And, so, I really wanted pizza and I gave him three options because that's a great way with Nines. Like "Do you want this, this, or this?"

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"Does any of these sound good or not good?"

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And he was like, "Not pizza." And it took so much, because I was pregnant so I deserve to have my pizza. But I was like, "No." The one thing that you can do, if you're loving a Nine in your life, is when they do speak up a preference, you give it to them."

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Alison: Yes.

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Lindsey: You don't have to make a big deal about it. But you just do it because they need the practice. 

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Alison: That's right. 

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Lindsey: And they really don't mind. If I had said, "Oh, I really wanted pizza."

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He'd be like, "Oh, yes, that's fine, I like pizza, it's good." But that would've been a step backward, in him trying to cultivate an assertiveness to his own needs and desires.

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Jesse: And I always say there's two sides to this. So for those that are not Nines, but in a relationship with a Nine, understand they need a long runway. They need a longer runway than most people because it takes them a while to figure out where are we going. What are the words I'm looking for? There's a meandering, kind of, style that they have. Don't cut off the runway. 

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You got to give them the runway, and that means the rest of us have got to hold back our energy to give them the space they need to get there. And, also, to the Nines, it is wrong to make other people live your life for you. And that's the thing that so many Nines end up settling for is, "Well, I'll let everybody else make all the decisions." And that's a huge burden to put on others. 

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And the fundamental belief of the Nine is, "I don't have what it takes. Everybody else has it, I don't have it. It doesn't matter, I can't change outcomes, I can't influence where things go. I don't have the energy, the strength, the clarity." And all of that is not true. 

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Lindsey: Yes.

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Jesse: Nines are such a gift, but it does require the Nine to exert themselves. And that will require the Nine to wake up out of the trance, that so many of them are in. The cheap version that Nine settles for is comfort. The real thing they want is Shalom, and Shalom often requires a struggle towards ultimate peace. 

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And so many of us just settle for this synthetic, junkie, version that is we wake up one day and we went, "Oh, my gosh, I literally just wasted away these different days that were so important." So to all the Nines listening, your presence matters. Aim for Shalom, don't just aim for comfort. 

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Alison: I love that. You guys are amazing. This is so rich and I hope, I know my listeners are just going to be wanting more, and I can just hear the wheels churning. "Well, what does this mean?"

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"What if I live with this type?"

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"What if my kid is this type?" So how do people find out more? Tell us where we can find you, and learn more about how to use this in our lives.

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Jesse: Well, so there are a few options. So the first thing is this is that Lindsay and I do co-host, together, a podcast called The EnneaCast. And, so, wherever you get your podcasts you can go and check that one out. And, so, it's Ennea, like Enneagram, and then cast. And then the other thing is this is that, literally, this week we are actually in a process of launching a brand new website called relatebetter.com. 

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And that is going to have a bunch of different tools with the ultimate goal being this, our conviction is that the purpose of life is relationships. Jesus says "Love God, love other people as you love yourselves." Which is to say everything in the totality of our life comes back to that. That's what we're going to care about on our deathbeds, it's what we care about when we go to sleep every night.

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And, so, our new website is going to slowly add increasing amounts of tools to help people, hopefully, experience better relationships. So we'll kick things off with a whole bunch of Enneagram stuff and wave one of those tools. And then we've got some life mapping stuff that's coming down the pipeline, and we got some surprises coming. So whether you're a therapist or whether you're somebody that is just, "I just want to learn how to have more relational intelligence." We want to help you with that, so go to relatebetter.com. 

And, then, if you want to know about our parent organization, it's called Love Thy Neighborhood, and we say we're like the Peace Corps with Bibles. And, so, you can go to lovethyneighborhood.org. We also have a podcast also called Love Thy Neighborhood, and if you're baptized NPR that's our show. And, also, I do have a book called How We Relate: Understanding God, Yourself, and Others Through the Enneagram. 

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So if you're looking for an approach to the Enneagram, that is deeply infused into the character of Jesus, into the heart of the gospel, that is this book. It's the book I wish I had when I first came across the Enneagram. So you will definitely encounter the gospel, in addition to Enneagram theory.

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Alison: You were both referring to that a little bit and I was like, "Oh, I need to take a look at whatever you guys are looking at." It was your book Jesse?

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Jesse: Yes, and I wrote it for all folks. So a lot of Enneagram stuff, sometimes, is pretty high brow and you've got to have a certain acumen. This is a book, literally, written for blue-collar folks all the way up to people that are trained psychologists. It is a very accessible book on purpose. 

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Alison: What about our teenagers; young adult and kids? 

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Lindsey: Mine is reading it right now. 

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Alison: Oh, cool.

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Lindsey: Yes, she read a little, tiny, primer and wanted more. And, so, I gave her Jesse's book and she's 13, she's almost 14, I guess. No, she's 13. She loves it, it has a lot of graphics in it, images, and she can really understand it. The language is accessible to her. She's really loving it and I'm loving it because I've been restraining myself from telling her, her number for all these years. She goes, "I think I might be a four."

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And I was like, "Oh, really? You think that, maybe?" 

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Alison: Oh, I do the same. I just, I cannot keep stuff back from typing everybody in my family. 

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Lindsey: I know.

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Alison: That's great, well, that's a great resource, thank you so much. And is there anything else?

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Jesse: Lindsay and I also lead workshops and, so, we lead workshops everywhere from you can come to our office and we have public workshops that we do. We also do things for church communities and we also do things for corporations. So we, actually, do work with a Fortune 500 company, and we modify our workshops in those contexts to be appropriate for a diverse audience. 

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But we offer a free one-hour study, at the end, for anyone that wants to stay where we talk about the character of Jesus and what He does with all these giant existential questions. So, yes, you can learn more about our workshops as well also by going to relatebetter.com. 

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Alison: Cool, so you'll go into churches and do workshops on this? 

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Jesse: Yes.

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Lindsey: Mm-hmm. 

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Alison: Very cool, awesome. You guys, it's just so rich, I can't say more. First of all, I just think that Enneagram is so rich, and then when you bring it together with a Christ-centered approach and make it a tool of spiritual formation, as you guys are doing, in such a deep, and nuanced, and life-giving way, it just brings real change. 

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Not only, again, to your life, it's not just naval gazing, to your relationships, and I love that you guys are doing this. Thank you so much for taking the time. This is one of our longer episodes, but it's just so rich. Everything you say, all the words you're saying, I'm just hanging on. You have such a great way with this. Thank you for taking the time to be here. 

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Lindsey: Thank you.

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Jesse: Well, it's our pleasure, thank you so much.

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< Outro >

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Alison: Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you'd take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button, that will ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others. 

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While you're there, I'd love it if you leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

Do you struggle with taking compliments? Are you a mind reader? A minimizer? Or do you tend to take things personally? If you answered yes to any of these, you do not want to miss today's episode. We're discussing 12 common thinking traps, what psychologists call cognitive distortions. These are ways of thinking that trip up every single one of us. The messages you tell yourself have a direct impact on the health of your relationships, so this is a great one to share with your family or friends.

‍

Here's what we cover:

1. 12 common thinking traps

2. How to avoid toxic shame spirals

3. The problem with mind reading

4. How to stop taking things personally

5. Why we all need to learn how to take a compliment

Do you have questions for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

Want to receive free bonus content? ⁠⁠Sign up for my free weekly email here.

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.

Order Aundi Kolber's new book, Strong Like Water today!

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Visit hiyahealth.com/BESTOFYOU and get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults.

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

‍

Resources

• ‍The Best of You on Youtube
• ‍2 Corinthians 10:5
• ‍The Best of You (Chapter 4, Chapter 6)
• More about Dr. Aaron Beck
• Episode 39: Boundaries for Your Soul—How to Navigate Your Overwhelming Thoughts & Feelings
• Episode 50: 9 Types of Intelligence, the Trap of Comparison, and How to Connect More Authentically with God
• Episode 49: Personality, the Big Five Traits, and Why Are We So Obsessed With Personality Types?
• ‍Resources for support

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast. I am so glad you're here. We are in a new series on my Favorite Psychology Tools, and I've loved hearing from you about what this series has meant to you. That you've been sharing it with friends. With even your kids, with your spouse, as a way of having conversations about your differences in a healthy way, and I love that. I love that this podcast can be a way for you to spark conversations about some of these topics, with the people that you love. 

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So before we dive in, today, I want to remind you that I send out a short email, every Thursday, with bonus content related to each episode. Almost, always, I think of something I missed or want to expand on, and I include that in that weekly email. It's free and you can subscribe to it on my website, dralisandcook.com. You'll see a free newsletter button right there, or you can check the link in the episode show Notes.

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So in this series, so far, we've been talking a lot about our differences. Differences in our personalities, and different types of intelligence. Different ways of using our minds and our personalities, to connect with God in our spiritual practices. And if there's one theme that I hope you are really grasping, so far, in these episodes, is that you develop a posture of curiosity about yourself and the way God made you, which is such a fun adventure. 

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Such a great way to look at life and get curious about the ways that God made other people, and the ways that they're simply different from you, and beginning to take some of this strength-based approach. 

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This is an approach, in psychology, that's often referred to as positive psychology. Where instead of focusing on diagnoses and mental illness, we begin to focus on different personality traits, differences between us that are just simply part of who we are. And while it's important to talk about diagnostic categories and where people are stuck in pathology or stuck in problematic ways. 

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It's also helpful to focus on our strengths and where we're simply looking at differences among us. Both are important, both matter and, in particular, when we start to focus on these personality differences, differences in gifting, et cetera. We begin to move from shaming ourselves or comparing ourselves to other people, and instead, we start to focus on becoming the person God wants me to become.

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That comparison trap is just so awful and so terrible. We wind up shaming ourselves or criticizing and picking apart other people, and it just leads to nowhere good. It's so freeing, as you begin to understand yourself. You're able to compare yourself less to others. You stop worrying about what they're doing better than you, what they're like, what you're not doing, and you start focusing on how to grow into and build on your own strengths. 

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You start to appreciate and value what makes you unique, which is a healthy form of taking pride in who God made you to be. So in order to do all of that, it requires a certain amount of cognitive health. In order to avoid so many traps such as comparisons, shame spills, and toxic messages. We have to mind what we're telling ourselves. 

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We have to mind our thoughts. We have to think about what we're thinking about, this is called metacognition. That's the fancy term for thinking about what you're thinking about. It's about becoming aware of what you're telling yourself, of what you're saying to yourself, of what you're believing inside, sometimes, beneath conscious awareness. It's about taking "Captive every thought," as Paul said, and making sure that what you're telling yourself aligns with what God wants you to see in yourself.

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In The Best of You, in chapter four, I call this "Looking at yourself through the mirror of truth, through God's mirror, and it starts with paying attention to your thoughts. And, so, today, I want to walk you through the most-common thought traps or what in psychology we call cognitive distortions. 

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These are distorted ways of thinking that keep you stuck. Cognitive distortions, which are really known as thinking errors, are patterns of biased and inaccurate thinking. And these patterns, that's the key word there, it's not just one thought that flashes into your mind and then you discard because you know it's not true. It's a patterned way of thinking, where you really slipped into a way of thinking that is not healthy for you, and it can lead to negative emotions. It can lead to self-doubt, it can lead to self-criticism, it can lead to shame, it can lead to negative behaviors. 

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You might start showing up in your relationships in certain ways based on lies or based on distorted ways of thinking, that simply are not true. It is tragic when I see this happening. Where people are believing a set of lies that are actually causing them to sabotage what is happening in their relationships. And I'm going to give you some examples of this, we all are susceptible to this. 

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So this is something that as we, again, look at our mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual health. This is minding the mind, minding our thoughts. Really being careful to pay attention to what we're telling ourselves. Cognitive distortions involve errors in the way we perceive and interpret information. 

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So a classic example is your teenager is sullen, grumpy, they seem like they're in a bad mood, and you tell yourself, "They hate me. They're mad at me because I asked them to clean their room." When really what they're thinking about is something that happened at school that day that had, absolutely, nothing to do with you. But you're convinced, whether consciously or subconsciously, that their mood is completely related to you. 

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And, so, you change your behaviors based on what is, in fact, not true. And it gets really destructive if we don't catch ourselves and make sure that we are telling ourselves what's true or getting information that we need to investigate the things we're telling ourselves. 

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Cognitive distortions can lead to distorted or irrational beliefs, attitudes and behaviors, and they're triggered by a lot of factors. They're shaped by our past experiences, where if you've been abused or criticized, over and over, by a caregiver. You may be susceptible to some of these faulty thinking patterns because that criticism gets programmed into your mind. And, so, you filter everything you hear through that critical lens. This is something to become aware of as you start to heal. 

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These cognitive distortions can be triggered by some beliefs that we hold, even some of our religious beliefs. We can start to filter in ways that aren't quite matching up with reality. They can be triggered by personal biases that we've held and we haven't checked. These subtle biases that step in, where we have these ideas about how people are. 

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Again, maybe, we inherited these from our family of origin and we haven't really checked them out against reality. We haven't become good scientists who are "Taking every thought captive," as Paul said. And holding them under the lens of objective criteria to test ourselves. "Is that really true?"

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I cannot tell you how many times I will ask clients that, let alone myself that "Is that really true?"

"Where did you hear that?"

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"Who told you that?"

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"Where did you pick up that belief, that idea, that attitude about yourself or about that other person? Let's test it. Let's weigh the evidence, let's unpack it." And, almost, always, especially, these negative beliefs we hold about ourselves. Almost, always, the person will realize they never really investigated the source of a deeply held belief, oftentimes, self-defeating, that they've been telling themselves. 

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Cognitive distortions were first identified by psychologist Aaron Beck. Who is considered to be the founder of cognitive therapy, and cognitive therapy is one of the most widely researched, most effective, most common forms of therapy out there. It focuses, exactly, on this very work of identifying and changing negative, unhelpful, patterns of thinking. And, especially, identifying how those negative, unhelpful, patterns of thinking are influencing behaviors in harmful ways. So it's pacing apart what's going on in your mind?

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What are you telling yourself? 

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What are you believing? 

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What are you thinking that is leading to these behaviors that have become destructive? In your relationships, in the way you treat yourself, in your parenting, whatever it may be. So I'm going to walk through twelve common cognitive distortions, that we all deal with from time to time. 

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And I guarantee you, you are going to see yourself on this list in more ways than one. And if you do, as you're listening, if you are saying, "Oh, my gosh, I do that. Oh, that is me." That is a gift. That gift of awareness is the first step toward meaningful change. We cannot change what we are not aware of. 

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So my goal, in this episode, is to raise your awareness of some of the ways you might be subconsciously, habitually, without even realizing it, telling yourself things that may not, in fact, be true. And we're not going to be able to root all of them out today. 

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But to become aware of what you're telling yourself, of the things you think, of the things you believe on a day-to-day basis. Especially as they relate to your primary relationships, is life-changing. And at the end of this episode, I'm going to give you some tips on how you can begin to incorporate this practice into your daily time of self-reflection, of your daily prayer, of your daily mental health practices. 

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Because minding your mind, and tending to your thoughts, as with anything, takes practice, just like building any muscle. When you start to go to the gym and you start to work on a muscle, it's hard at first, but over time, as you practice, you begin to catch yourself more quickly. 

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And you might even still do it, you might even still say, "Oh, there I go, I'm completely mind reading right now. I'm completely telling myself that I know what that person's thinking when I have no idea what they're thinking." And you can name it and much more easily stop that from influencing your behaviors in negative ways.

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< Music >

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Here are twelve, common, thought distortions that we all face. Number one is all-or-nothing thinking, also known as black-and-white thinking, and it means you consider everything in black-and-white terms. From one extreme to another, without considering the shades of gray, the nuances, the middle ground, where so many things, especially, when we're struggling and tempted to all-or-nothing thinking fits. 

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Usually, when we're in the middle of a struggle, things are very gray and murky, but we don't know how to live there. And, so, we tend to go to one extreme or the other. 

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And, so. here are some examples. 

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"I'm either perfect or I'm a complete failure."

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"They either love me and think I'm amazing, or they hate me and think I'm the worst person in the world."

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"I'm amazing as a mom, as a friend, as a wife, I am on it. I am amazing or I am just the worst." You just go from one extreme to the other, and a lot of this is normal to feel this way. This is that link between the way we feel and what we're thinking, and it's one thing to feel this way. To feel like "I feel like a complete failure." Even as, simultaneously, you know that's not true. That's what we're after. 

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You may not be able to completely change the feeling, that's present when you're doing all-or-nothing thinking of like "I know it's not true, but I just feel like a miserable failure." But the "I know it's not true" is very important. To say "I have to own the fact that I feel this way." And, simultaneously, "I know it's not true. I know that mistake I just made in parenting does not make me the world's worst parent." And, the hanging on just a little bit to that truth of "I had a bad moment" versus "I am a failure" is all the difference between a shame spiral and a bad moment.

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This is so critical because if you really believe, inside, when you make a mistake, "I am a failure." That is a vicious, horrible, way to live. You just start to pile on layers and layers of shame on yourself.

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But as you begin to parse through the feeling of, again, I'm using this example of, "I'm a failure." And the belief is just right there, side by side, going "I know I'm not a failure. I know it's just a bad moment. Two things can be true, I can feel like a failure in this moment and, simultaneously, I know every parent has terrible moments. Every spouse has terrible moments. Every colleague has terrible moments, it's okay."

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You start to talk yourself back into that balance. Where there's some painful feelings there, but there's also some equilibrium. There's some truth-telling and that's what we are after, as we identify these cognitive distortions. We want to dig them out like weeds buried deep in the soil. We got to get them at the root and pull them out. 

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So that when there is some hard stuff, those weeds are not crowding us out and telling us lies about what's happened because the stuff is hard enough. The thing that's happened is going to be hard, but what we tell ourselves about it really matters. And if we're telling ourselves lies, if we're telling ourselves a thought distortion, which is that "You are either perfect or you are a failure." It's only going to make it worse. It's only going to pile on the shame. 

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Number two is overgeneralization, and this is where you draw sweeping, widespread, conclusions based on maybe one or two isolated incidences. It's a really sneaky distortion and we're all susceptible to it. A classic example is that you receive one C on a test. Overall, you've been a pretty good student, you've done pretty well. But you get that one C and you generalize that one incident to "I am terrible at science."

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"I am a terrible writer."

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"I am  terrible at math."

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And people do this, we have one bad experience in a class or get one bad grade and just write yourself off in that field for the rest of your life. Or somebody laughed at you once, this happened to me once. Somebody laughed at me once when I sang and I thought, "Well, I'm just a bad singer." And I'm actually not a terrible singer but I just generalized. I was like, "Well, that one incidence must lead to a sweeping truth about who I am."

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Another example is you might generalize from a painful situation that happened. "One of my friends betrayed me, therefore, all people will eventually betray me." This is a really tragic byproduct of childhood trauma where if a parent betrays you, it's really easy in that young brain to generalize. To assume all adults are eventually going to betray you. We can even generalize to God, as children, "Well, if these people, who were in authority and were supposed to care for me, treated me this way." Generalize that to God. 

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This is a really normal way of making sense of complicated things. There's no shame in doing this, but we do want to become aware of it. And, you combat these by testing the data. "Wait a minute, that was one bad grade. Do I like science? Do I like music. Do I like singing? Do I want to write it off forever?"

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"Wait a minute, that was one person who was really awful to me."

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Let's look at the evidence, "Are there other people?" And you begin to gather data. You begin to embark on a process to find out what's really true. You can look at statistics, sometimes, and we can all sit around and guess what we feel, what might be subjectively true. But let's look at the data. What are the data out there? 

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Another classic case of this is people are terrified to fly. And then you look at the stats, and you realize it's actually far safer to fly than it is to drives. That's the actual fact. But we generalize based on a fear that we have during one bad flight, that all flying is terrifying, therefore all flying is unsafe. When, in fact, the data tells us a whole different story. So this is, again, minding your mind really paying attention to what you are subtly telling yourself and subtly believing. 

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Number three and four are two sides of the same coin. Three is mental filtering, and this is when you focus exclusively on the negative aspects of any situation while ignoring the positive. So you've got this mental filter in place where you just filter out the positive and you only see the negative. 

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So, for example, you might dwell only on the negative comments you receive from a romantic partner, or from a teacher, or from a work colleague, or a boss. Even when there is evidence that they've, actually, also given you affirmation and given you praise, you just can only see the negative. 

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Now, closely related to mental filtering, discounting the positive, this is number four. These two are very closely related. But disqualifying the positive means you acknowledge the positive. You hear it, it comes in, and then you just reject it. You just throw it away, and you figure out a way to completely pick it apart and disarm it. And if you think about these two categories, if you think about people who it's really hard for them to take a compliment. That would be someone who's really good at discounting the positive. 

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No matter what you say, they're going to say, "Mm, no, that's not really true."

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You say, "Oh, you look so nice today."

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"Oh, no I don't, I just woke up."

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Or, "You did such a good job of that."

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"Oh, no, it was nothing."

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"No, really, that other person did all the work."

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That person cannot accept positive feedback from you, and it really is a barrier to connection. It's a barrier to authenticity. Because taking in a compliment, taking in praise, or a positive from someone requires us to be vulnerable. There's a humility involved in saying, "Oh, thank you, that really meant a lot. I can receive that from you." Receiving praise from someone is a skill. 

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And, then, likewise, the person with the mental filter who doesn't even see the positive. That mental filter only sees and takes in the negative. You might think of someone who's really a pessimist. Someone who finds whatever the negative is and just goes there, and some of this is habit. Some of this is a protective mechanism. 

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There's a way in which this person is getting something by just staying so focused on the negative. That if they were to have to entertain the possibility of something positive. They might have to open up to hope, they might have to open up to change, and it could be really painful. It could break open something inside of them.

So, again, there's no shame. And if you see yourself, in these, or if you see someone you love in these, please tread lightly. Don't go trying to pull off the filter, it will not work. It's likely there for a reason, but gently begin to name it. "That's interesting, I notice you tend to gravitate toward the negative. I wonder what that's about? Tell me about that." And that person may not be able to respond, in that moment, but you're just gently getting curious. "I notice this." Or the person who always discounts the positive, who cannot receive a positive from you. 

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"I just noticed that I just said something complimentary to you and it seemed like it was hard for you to take that. I'm just curious about that. I wonder what that's about?"

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And you can even say that rhetorically without requiring them to answer. Because this is tender stuff, this is vulnerable. These are coping strategies. They're there for a reason. These ways of thinking, these cognitive distortions, we've developed these, over time, for a reason. These are attached to parts of us, to go back to the series that we did on Boundaries for Your Soul. But these parts of us have taken up these ways of filtering out the positive or rejecting every compliment for a reason. 

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So we don't want to go trying to rip these all to people. What we want to do is get curious, come alongside ourselves, "I wonder why I do that. It's so hard for me when someone tells me something positive, I just want it to go away. I just can't take it." Or it's just like moth to a flame with negative news. "I just want to grab that negativity; I wonder what that's about?" Get curious, don't shame yourself, don't shame others. Get curious, as you consider all of these twelve examples that we're going through today. 

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This is one of my favorites, number five, mind reading. I pride myself on being a little bit of a mind reader. I know what people are thinking. I know what they're feeling, and this is the flip side of the gift of empathy. Sometimes we do, and sometimes we do have a pretty good sense of what other people are thinking and feeling. 

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Some of us are pretty good about that. It gets back to that interpersonal, intelligence, we talked about in episode 50. And we pride ourselves that we're pretty good at picking up on subtext and cues from other people. But I promise you, even if you're pretty good at reading other people, you will sometimes be wrong, and you do sometimes have blind spots. So mind reading is making assumptions or interpretations without sufficient evidence. 

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We jump to conclusions about what's going on, usually in another person, without really knowing what they're thinking or what they're feeling in that moment. Sometimes you might be right, if it's a kid you know really well, a friend, or a spouse, you probably can anticipate what's going through their mind. But you are not always right, and this is why I always say it is so important to just ask. 

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One of my favorite phrases to say to people is, "I'm imagining that you might be feeling this."

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Or "I imagine that you might be thinking this, is that right? Can you tell me more?"

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To open up a conversation, giving them a chance to let me know if I'm accurate or not because I'm not always accurate. When we mind read without being consciously aware of it and consciously checking ourselves, with humility, to realize that we are not ultimately mind readers. We can change our behaviors based on things that are not true. This is that example of a teen is grumpy at dinner, and you assume it's because of something you cooked, or something you did, or something you asked.

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You might even discipline your teen when really they had a bad day and it has nothing to do with you. And, so, you've got to say, "Hey, I notice, it seems like maybe something's on your mind. Is everything okay?" They might brush you off, they might not answer, but at least you checked it out. 

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Now, an extreme example of mind reading is when you attribute something to someone that is not based in any form of truth. For example, you're out to dinner with friends, and they offer to pay the bill. And you assume that they did that because they think you're a failure and can't hack it on your own, and you attribute something to their actions that is not, in fact, true. 

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Closely related to mind reading, another form of jumping to conclusions, number six is fortune telling. This is when you make predictions about the future based on little or no evidence. You predict something and hold it as the truth. You really fixate on it without really doing the work to gather information, to see if you're basing that on actual evidence. 

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Here's an example of how this can influence your behavior. And, again, these are tricky, these are sneaky. A lot of times these are subconscious. But you'll hear someone say, "I'll never find love." because they've had a couple of really bad relational experiences. Right after something really hard happens, we might feel like "I'm never going to find love."

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Or "I'm never going to find a job I love."

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Or "I'm never going to find friends." But the reality is, odds are you probably will. If we look at the data, most people tend to find a friend or two. But if you're telling yourself, "I'll never be someone who finds a friend."

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Or "I'll never be someone who finds love."

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Or "I'll never be someone who finds a job." That becomes a little bit of what we call these self-fulfilling prophecies,where if you believe it strongly enough, you can start to will it into being, and this isn't a magical thing. 

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This is if you really believe you're someone who can't find friends, your behaviors will start to align with somebody who doesn't know how to be a friend. As opposed to saying, "Wait a minute, I've had a couple of bad experiences. I think I can find friendship; I think I can find belonging. How can I align my actions in ways that allow me more of a possibility, more of a probability for that to become true?"

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< Music >

Number seven is emotional reasoning. I've been alluding to this throughout. It's believing that your emotions are accurate reflections of reality. This is a tricky one because emotions are important. They have important information for us. They're important cues, that stuff is happening. But it doesn't mean they always tell us the truth about a situation. 

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In The Best of You, I talk about this in chapter six, where I talked about facts, faith, and feelings. You have to hold them in balance with each other. Your feelings are not always facts; they are a piece of data that you have to hold in tension with the facts of a situation. Almost all of us have bought into this particular distortion. And it's, essentially, when you say, "I feel it, therefore it must be true."

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Now, the subtle nature of this is you feel it, and that is true. It is true that you feel it, but it doesn't mean that what you feel is true. And, so, for example, going back to that all-or-nothing example when you say, "I feel like a failure." I believe you, that you feel like a complete failure in this moment. That doesn't mean you are, in fact, a failure. That's the difference here. The feeling is true in the sense that you feel it, and we need to deal with that because it's important information. But it does not mean that it is, in fact, true. 

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You might feel suspicious of somebody's motives, and that might be true. It might mean that they have poor motives. It might not be true. There's a leap between that feeling of suspicion and what is, in fact, true. You might feel like someone doesn't like you, and that might be true, or it may well not be true. 

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Again, this gets at that mind reading. You may feel like you know what they're thinking about you. But you don't actually know what they're thinking about you, until you ask them. Until you gather data. And this is just such an important one, deeply important foundational, in our daily practice of staying aware of what is in our minds. 

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Our feelings can really overtake us. "I feel this so deeply, it must be true." And just always holding that in tension with, "I feel this so deeply and I'm going to journal about it, 

and I'm going to try to unpack it, and I'm going to try to understand it." While, simultaneously, always holding that little part of you that says, "What is true?"

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Again, with curiosity, you may not arrive at the solution to this today. And this is the thing about minding our minds, it takes work. It's a discipline. It takes practice.I'm a big journaler. I journal every morning because it takes me a few laps around the track of my feelings, to arrive at what's actually true. 

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Sometimes it takes me a few days, sometimes it takes me months, and it takes some patience. The Fruit of the Spirit of patience, the Fruit of the Spirit of self-control. To take the time that I need to take about a feeling that I'm having. To bring it into tension with what the facts are, to bring it into tension with what God is saying to me, to arrive at conclusions that dictate my actions. 

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We are complicated beings, and it takes some work to pay attention to what we're paying attention to. So that the way that we behave in the world is grounded on wisdom, and rationality, and sound practices. 

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Number eight labeling, I talk about this a lot on here. We don't want to label people. We don't want to slap a sticker on ourselves or other people. We want to name patterns of behavior. Labeling is applying a negative label to yourself, to someone else. Based on a very singular incident, a singular character trait, just an unfair representation of the entirety of that person. 

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This is really an extreme form of overgeneralization. It's saying "That person didn't come through for me in the moment, therefore, they are unreliable. That's an unreliable person because one time they didn't come through for me."

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Now, if that person, continually, over time, never comes through for you, and is always letting you down. Then it might be fair to say that person has shown me unreliable patterns of behavior, I can't count on that person, that's wisdom. 

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But to make an attribution of that's an unreliable person, that's an irresponsible person, that's a lazy person, that's a critical person, whatever the label is. Without really getting a chance to see the whole of who that person is and, again, we probably more frequently do this to ourselves.

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Probably more frequently are we inclined to attribute a negative label to ourselves. "I'm lazy."

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"I'm irresponsible."

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"I'm stupid."

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It's just not true. The whole gestalt, the whole big picture of who we are does not support that unilateral labeling, and it's not helpful. It doesn't actually help us be the person we want to become. 

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Number nine catastrophizing, another really common one. It's assuming the worst-case scenario is inevitable, in any given moment, when something bad happens. We all have friends like this, some of us are like this. Some of you have kids who are like this. Where no matter what happens, it is the worst thing ever. "My life is going to fall apart because I did not get the grade that I wanted."

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"My life is going to fall apart because I didn't get invited to that party."

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"My life is going to fall apart because I didn't get that invitation."

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"My life is going to fall apart because I didn't make that deadline."

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Whatever it is, we extrapolate it to the worst-case scenario. We can even do it to our mental health. "I feel anxious, today. Ah, I am an anxious person. I'm going to feel anxious for the rest of my life."

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Number ten is should statements, another really common, unhelpful, thought pattern, and we do this to ourselves so often. Should statements are statements that you make to yourself about what you should do, what you ought to do, what you must do, what you should never do. 

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We can also do it in the negative. We can apply them to others; "They should not be doing that." There's always a tone of judgment in there. Shoulding is often linked to judgment. "I should really be better at this."

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"I should be a better friend."

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"I should be a better parent."

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"I should never lose my temper."

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"I should never get angry."

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"I should never feel sad."

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"I shouldn't feel this way about this other person."

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"I shouldn't feel this way about myself, about God, about church about...." Whatever it is, we should ourselves to death. "I should do this."

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"I should do that."

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"I should do this." When I started paying attention to my shoulds, this was about ten years ago, I consciously started to pay attention to shoulds based on the help of a spiritual director. I could not believe how life changing it was and how I drove myself with shoulds. Often linked to an inner guilt tripper, "I should do this." And, so, often it was squeezing out the actual better choice, the life-giving choice before God. 

When we hang on to should statements about ourselves, we live in the guilt trap that we cannot live up to. And we often don't end up making the wisest decisions. When we cling to should statements about others, we are always going to be disappointed. We're going to risk being judgmental. We're going to risk being critical in ways that are not necessary. 

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Number eleven is personalization, another common one. I guess all of these are common, that's my conclusion. Because every single time I get to one of these I'm like, "Yes." This is where we take responsibility or blame for events or situations that are beyond our control. Now that sounds abstract, what this really looks like is taking things personally. And this is a tough one that is so important to get on top of, especially, as a parent or in a romantic relationship, where things just have to come to the surface. 

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Fundamental differences of someone being annoyed that the dishes are in the sink, or someone being annoyed about the way you brush your teeth, or someone being annoyed that you're talking too loudly on the phone, while they're trying to study, and it's not personal. It's not actually about you. It's just something that is outside of the two people that is the cause of irritance, that two people, together, need to work through. And when we take it personally, we make it even harder to work through to a healthy conclusion or a healthy compromise.

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And, so, there are a wide spectrum of ways this can come up. From the simple ones, like I said, of just taking it personally when our spouse says, "Hey, could you not leave the cap off the toothpaste."

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And we go, "What? You think I'm a bad person? You think I'm unthoughtful?"

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No, it was a simple request of, "Hey, could you please put the cap back on the toothpaste?" There's no personal attack in that. There's no personal judgment in that. That's a simple example but it's very real, and these things can drive us crazy in our relationships. To bigger things where you believe that you are the cause of everybody else's feelings. This gets back to the mind reading, but you mind read in such a way that it's always your fault. 

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So let's say you plan an event and someone didn't have a good time at it. You assume it's your fault. It's your fault that every person there didn't have the time of their lives because you didn't attend to every single detail perfectly. You take it personally when, in fact, maybe that other person didn't have a good time for a million other reasons that have nothing to do with you. 

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So this is a tough one, because sometimes it is personal. Sometimes it is personal, and a lot of times it's not. Research from psychology would tell us that we do better for ourselves if we assume that it's not. The less we take things personally, the more effective we'll be in our relationships. 

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And, finally, we've arrived at minimizing. Minimizing is so common, and it's a way of downplaying the importance or significance of an event, a situation, or a behavior. Often to avoid complicated feelings about it. It can often happen when we've been hurt and we minimize it, "Oh, it's nothing, it's fine. I'm fine. Don't worry about me."

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When, in fact, there really is a hurt there. There really is something that happened` that hurt, and maybe we don't want to make a big deal about it, but we do need to acknowledge it. And, again, this is a lot of work that happens in the privacy of our own heart, and I do a lot of journaling related to this. Because I'm a big minimizer, and I've learned that it doesn't really serve other people when I minimize things. 

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But what I've had to learn to do is write it in my journal and be like, "Yes, this hurt me." And, then, really, think through "When, and if, and how I need to say that or raise that to the surface." One of the things I like to do, in my own life for this, is just use a simple phrase, I'll say "Ouch". Which is just an acknowledgment of, "Yes, ouch, that hurt." I don't need to have a big conversation about it, but I'm not lying. I'm not saying, "No, it's fine."

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I'm saying "Ouch, that was a bruise."

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Some indication that there was a hurt there. Now, the truth is, sometimes, it's wise to minimize in the sense of if we're doing it accurately. If we're saying "No, it's really no big deal." But this gets at the honesty. That H-Factor we talked about in the episode on Personality, episode 49. 

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The more we're honest with ourselves and the more we say, "No, it's really not a big deal. I really don't mind this." Comes out of knowing and trusting ourselves that we will say, "Actually, that one does bother me."

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"I do care about this one."

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"I do have a preference on this one."

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"I do need to talk about this one." We build trust with ourselves, as we get really clear about when we're minimizing in an unhealthy way. Versus when we're being really honest and having a lot of integrity and saying, "It's really not a big deal." This is an important one for us to work out in the privacy of our own hearts. 

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Gosh, as we close today, I feel like I could have, probably, done a complete episode on every single one of those. So we will come back to these. They're so important. We're just scratching the surface today. Just begin to pay attention, to become aware. Talk to other people about this. You might share this with a small group, with friends, with a friend circle, with a spouse, in your family. 

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You can use this episode as a way of saying, "Hey, let's talk about this. I think we're doing this in our family. Let's work on one or two of these."

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"In the context of our family, we tend to take things personally, let's work on that. Let's talk about that."

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Use this as a springboard for conversations with the people in your life. And, then, also, use this as an opportunity to grow in daily awareness. 

I'm a big believer and every morning I take inventory,I think about how I'm doing mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually, it's an important daily habit for me. I understand different seasons of life are different for different people. There have been seasons of life where that's been harder for me. 

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But I would say that's an ideal place every morning just to take inventory, and I do that simple MEPs exercise. And I start with the M - what am I thinking about? 

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What am I telling myself?

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What am I feeling? 

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Because sometimes those things are hard to parse out, and I just jot a few sentences about it. Sometimes a word just to grow in awareness, and then you invite God into that. "God, help me, help me notice when I'm deceiving myself. When I'm fooling myself. When I'm shaming myself. When I'm shoulding myself, when I'm susceptible to all-or-nothing thinking. When I'm jumping to conclusions, when I'm mind reading. Just help me pay attention to what I'm telling myself." And if you don't have time to do it in the morning, throughout the day—iIf you're driving around kids, when you're in the carpool pickup lane. When you have a few moments at the traffic, turn off the radio, turn off the podcast, and just check in with what you're thinking about. Where's your mind? 

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What are you telling yourself?"

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When you're in the shower, when you're cooking dinner? Where are moments, regular rhythms, throughout the day, things that you do every day that you can train yourself to say, "This is a time when I turn off the radio, I turn off the podcast, I get off the phone, and I just check in with my own mind." And ask the Lord to be with you in that. To help you pay attention and attune to what you're thinking about, and help you align what you're thinking about with what's really true. Just start there. 

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You don't have to clean it up overnight, but just start paying attention to what you're thinking about and align yourself with what is good, with what is true, with what is beautiful. So that you can begin to become a better, truer, version of your God-given self. 

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< Outro >

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Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you'd take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts, and click the plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others. 

While you're there, I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here, next Thursday, and remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

This week we're digging into intelligence. And believe me, it's not what you were taught! If you've struggled with comparing yourself to others, feeling inadequate, or unsure of your unique gifts (and that's pretty much all of us), you don't want to miss this episode!

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Here's what we cover:

1. What is intelligence?

2. Why it's different than what you were taught

3. 9 different types of intelligence

4. 2 toxic consequences of comparing ourselves to others

5. 9 ways to connect with God

Do you have questions for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

Want to receive free bonus content? ⁠⁠Sign up for my free weekly email here.

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Resources

• ‍The Best of You on Youtube
• Episode 3: What Is Self-Love And Should I Really Love Myself?‍
• More on Howard Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences
• ‍Sacred Pathways by Gary Thomas
• ‍John 20:24-27
• ‍Romans 12:1
• ‍Resources for support

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Get 35% off your first order of Sundays. Go to SundaysForDogs.com/BESTOFYOU or use code BESTOFYOU at checkout.
• Order Aundi Kolber's new book, Strong Like Water today!

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to today's episode of The Best of You podcast. I am so glad you're here. We are in a new series on my favorite psychology tools and I like to think of that word, psychology, that prefix psyche. Traditionally, historically, it was always interpreted as soul. So psychology is literally the study of the soul. 

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Now, in the 20th century, psyche came to be more understood as the mind. But I really like that translation of the soul, where we're talking about all of the elements. The mental, the emotional, the spiritual, and even the physical. Including the nervous system and the body in that study of the psyche, insofar as it helps us understand ourselves. 

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Now, on this podcast, if you've been around for a while or if you're new, I always bring that study of psychology into partnership with something from the Bible, from theology, from religious studies. Because I believe we don't really know ourselves fully unless we are also, intimately, connected with the One who made us. And, frankly, you could also add into that, insofar as we are also connected to the people around us. There's this trinity of relationships between the self, God, and others, all of which contribute to who we are. 

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As a psychologist, I tend to emphasize this relationship with the self. Trying to understand who you are, your individual needs, your individual differences, your individual makeup. But, again, we understand that much more fully in the context of understanding the God who made us and understanding other people in our lives. 

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Now, before we get started, if you have questions for me that you want me to answer. Please locate the question Doc in the episode Show Notes, right here wherever you're listening to your podcast. 

Or you can go to the episode web page on my website that's at dralisandcook.com. You'll find the full transcription of every episode, as well as all the links to resources I mention in each podcast episode there. And you will find that Question Doc link and you can leave me questions there, and I'll answer some of them in future episodes. 

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Finally, you can also listen to this podcast now on YouTube. It's still just audio. I don't have the capacity right now to do video. But if you're someone who doesn't really like apps, you can find The Best of You podcast on YouTube, and just play it and listen to it right there. 

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Today we're going to talk about intelligence. How it's measured? What it is? How you cultivate it? How you care for your cognitive life? Which is really important because we want to be able to process all the data that is flying at us. We have so much data coming in to us, through nonstop news streaming, and social media, and the Internet. We have so much information coming at us, that we don't often stop to think about how we're thinking about things. How we're arriving at conclusions. 

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So, today, I'm going to give you more of a bird's eye view of differences in types of intelligence. As well as how those may impact our spiritual life and how we relate to God. And then next week, I'm going to get into cognitive distortions, and ways that our thinking can betray us and start to lead us astray. And how it's actually fairly simple with some intention to restructure and reframe our thought life. 

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So I want to start off by defining the term cognitive function. Which refers to those mental processes and abilities, that are evolved in processing information. Storing information, which is memory. Focusing on information, decision-making, problem-solving, even creativity. 

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It's the M in that MEPS. If you go back to episode three, where I talk about self-love. I give you a MEPS exercise, which can be a daily check-in where you check in with your Mental, Emotional, Physical, and Spiritual health. Because we have all of those dimensions operating on any given day. This is a focus on that M. What am I thinking about? 

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Do I feel clear?

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Do I feel foggy? 

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Do I feel scattered? 

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Do I feel distracted? 

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Is it hard for me to make a decision? 

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And do I have a problem that I can't figure out how to solve? 

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And these cognitive functions impact our emotions. When we're stuck with a complicated problem, we can feel really frustrated. We can even get depressed or, conversely, if we're feeling depressed, we can have a really hard time accessing our cognitive function. 

So our mind and our emotions are, intimately, tied together. They are also, intimately, linked to our nervous system, to our bodies, and to our spiritual lives. So we're trying to parse out, today, that mental piece. The cognitive piece of that holistic self.

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Intelligence is a really complex idea. It's all about how you learn and acquire knowledge. It's about understanding new ideas. It's how you reason and problem-solve. How you adapt to new situations. It involves a lot of the brain. It involves memory. It involves an ability to focus. It also incorporates our emotional intelligence. It incorporates our creativity. 

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So, in the past, intelligence was often measured by IQ tests, and still to this day it is, although, it's not as popular as it once was. And it's also often measured in all of these tests that our kids are given. College entrance exams such as the SAT, the ACT, graduate school entrance exams. All of these standardized aptitude tests. But the truth is, these tests have a lot of limitations. 

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There is a theory of intelligence that I really like that I'm going to introduce to you, today. That theorizes there are actually nine different forms of intelligence. The idea of multiple intelligences was first proposed by a Harvard psychologist named Howard Gardner, in the 1980s. He suggested that there were multiple types of intelligence, and he tried to broaden the way that we think of intelligence. 

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So I'm going to go through the nine types of intelligence that he theorized. As you listen, just think about how this resonates for your own life, for your kids, for family members. And how rethinking intelligence is a helpful way of maximizing our individual differences and our individual strengths? 

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So, number one, he talked about linguistic intelligence. This is the ability to understand and use language, both in written and spoken words. These are folks who like words. They are very verbal. They might be considered highly articulate. This is often measured in the verbal portion of standardized tests. If you have friends who are just really good with words or can write well, you might consider them to be high in this linguistic intelligence. 

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Number two is what he called logical-mathematical intelligence. As the name implies, it's a type of intelligence that involves the ability to reason logically and to use mathematical or numeric concepts effectively. So if you're strong in this, you are pretty good at analyzing and solving problems using either logic or quantitative methods. 

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Folks like this might be more linear and sequential in solving problems. They might excel in math, science, engineering, maybe coding, or accounting. They might be really good at strategy or analyzing problems. These are the two traditional types of intelligence. These are the ones that are most commonly measured in standardized tests, such as the SAT. Where we look at verbal and mathematical intelligence, as it relates primarily to school. These two types of intelligence are often highly correlated with how well we do in school. 

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In the past, often, the discussion of intelligence stopped here. But, again, Gardner expanded beyond just those two categories. 

So, third, he talked about spatial intelligence. This is the ability to visualize and manipulate objects in the mind. When you think of someone who's a visual person or a visual thinker. 

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Maybe you might have someone in your family, or you might be someone who sees in pictures more than words. These are folks who navigate well through physical spaces. This is someone who would be high in spatial intelligence. And, sometimes, if you're high in spatial intelligence you may not perform as well on a traditional vocabulary or mathematics test. 

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However, it's a really unique skill set where you can manipulate objects in a three-dimensional space, and you might be really good at art, or architecture, or design. You might also be good at interpreting diagrams, or imagining, or seeing, in your mind, how different things fit together. And, so, you're skilled at using different parts of the brain than folks who are high in other types of intelligence. 

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Fourth, he talked about bodily or kinesthetic intelligence. Now, this is the ability to control one's body movements and handle objects skillfully. And, again, we talk about folks who just have really good eye-hand coordination. Or you think about elite athletes where a lot of it is training and they've learned to control their body, in that way. And there's just a natural ability to know how to move the body. 

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If you've ever seen a dancer, even when they're not dancing there's a fluidity to their movement. There's a real intelligence about their body, and they just know how to manipulate or move their body in space in a way that is really heightened. 

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Number five is musical intelligence, the ability to understand and create music. It might include rhythm, an inherent understanding of rhythm. Melody of how to create harmony. And, again, someone who has this type of innate intelligence, has access to a part of the brain in a way that someone else might not. And, again, this may not test out in school or on an aptitude test, but it's a very sophisticated use of a certain part of the brain. 

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Sixth, is interpersonal intelligence. The ability to understand other people, to relate to other people. To perceive and understand the emotions of another person or even the motivations of another person. If you're high in this, you have a knack for just knowing what to say in a given moment or knowing what someone needs to hear, in a given moment. 

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You read other people very well and that just comes naturally to you. And if you look back, you have a sense of "This is something that I've just always been pretty good at. Again, it doesn't, necessarily, test out on a standard intelligence test but it is a type of intelligence. It's a way of accessing a part of your brain that allows you to be really smart, as it comes to relating to other people. 

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Seventh, is intrapersonal intelligence. This is the ability to attend to one's inner life. This is very similar to what psychologists call interoception. It's the ability to pick up on the cues coming from inside of you, to regulate your own emotions. To be aware of your own ah thoughts, your own beliefs, to be cognizant of or conscious of your own behaviors. These are folks who really understand themselves, intuitive, and are really deeply connected to themselves. 

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Number eight, Gardner talked about naturalistic intelligence. Which relates to your ability to recognize and understand patterns and relationships, in the natural world. For example, with plants, or flowers, or animals. People who are high in this type of intelligence, are able to really observe and classify different aspects of the natural world. 

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They're really attuned to the natural environment. They might have a deep appreciation for nature. The classic example is you might think of somebody who's really good at gardening. Folks who say, "Well, I just don't have a green thumb." Versus folks who really excel at just being in the garden and knowing how to work, closely, with plants, so that plants thrive. 

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And, lastly, Gardner talked about existential intelligence. Which is really the ability to grapple with deep philosophical questions, primarily, about meaning, about purpose, about life, about existence. People who are really comfortable and gifted about understanding hard, abstract, topics like death, the meaning of life, even concepts like God. 

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So, Gardner's theory of intelligence suggests that individuals have different strengths and different weaknesses in each of these areas. That intelligence isn't just one, single, unitary concept. But rather that there are lots of kinds of intelligence, each one using different parts of the brain, and different people are gifted at different types. 

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< Music >

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Alison: There are a lot of implications for understanding the different types of intelligence. The primary being just understanding yourself better. It reduces shame when we understand, "Wait, I'm really good at this thing. My brain just does this naturally, but I'm not as good at this thing."

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So we begin, again, as we said in last week's episode on personality, we begin to work with the grain of who we are. We begin to maximize our strengths and also appreciate the differences in other people. 

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But, today, I also want to talk about how these different types of intelligence influence our spiritual lives. Because as we have preferences, as things come more easily to us, and we're more natural at certain things. It no doubt bleeds into other areas of our life, including our spiritual life. And one of the things I've noticed is that we naturally gravitate to different types of spiritual practices based on our gifts, and based on where we excel, and there's also no shame in that.

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I would argue that each of these types of intelligence could be used as an avenue to understand God better. To comprehend God better. To relate to God better. To bring together the way that God made you with who God is. Because, after all, if God made each of these different types of intelligence and gave us these different gifts. Doesn't he want us to use those gifts and honor those gifts in our spiritual practices? 

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I've long been a student of a lot of different denominations. A lot of different types of worship. A lot of different faith communities. And one of the things I notice, as a psychologist, who's always got that lens on, is how fascinating it is that different people are drawn to God in different ways. And just to name that, and put that out front, not let that be accidental. 

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Because sometimes what happens is if we're not somebody who fits, especially in America. Where there are certain ways that church is done, that really do cater to just a couple of these types of intelligences versus all of them. We can feel like there's something wrong with us.

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If we're going to a church that's really heavy on emotional music or emotional language. And we're somebody who really values logic, or reason, or even numbers and math, and we like things orderly and tidy. We can feel like there's something wrong with us, that we're not appreciating that service. That we're not getting a lot out of that service. Maybe we leave that service, that worship experience, feeling empty or cold. 

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We can feel like, "What's wrong with me?" Or we could go to the other extreme, which is judging, "What's wrong with these people? Why are they doing it this way?" We can either shame ourselves or judge others. Instead of saying, "Oh, that's so interesting. Here's what they're doing, they're really focusing on that particular form of communicating with God, of using their minds to worship God, and the way that I do it is a little bit different." And there's room for all these differences. 

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So, toward that end, I'm going to draw heavily on a book by Gary Thomas, who's a Christian author, called Sacred Pathways: Discover Your Soul's Path to God. And he actually describes, in this book, nine Sacred Pathways. 

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Now, they don't map on exactly to these different forms of intelligence, but there certainly are some overlaps. Enough so that it got me thinking that, "Is it possible that some of our inherent giftedness, the way that God wired us to excel? To use our brains in a way that just comes more naturally to us, might map onto a different sacred pathway. A different way of understanding God."

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And, so, I want to touch on those nine pathways that Thomas lays out, in his book. And use them as a way of creating examples of how you could use your innate intelligence, your innate giftedness, as a tool for you to connect more, intimately, with God. The very first one that Gary Thomas talks about is the naturalist. And this reminds me of the naturalistic intelligence that Gardner talks about. 

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These are people who experience God best through nature and through the outdoors. I have a number of these in my own family. Where they would rather be in the mountains, be in the wilderness, be hiking, be fishing, be studying flowers, be with animals. Whatever it is outside than almost anywhere else on this Earth. There is so much appreciation for the beauty in nature, and that can become a sacred pathway, as we begin to name it. 

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Now, I'm not suggesting we replace a church service with that. But I am suggesting that if you are somebody who says "Being inside, sitting in a stuffy building for two hours just doesn't do it for me. But, man, when I am in the mountains and I see the trees, and the flowers, and the river, and my heart sings with praise to God." 

That is a form of worship that you get to name and own before God, and God understands that. And maybe you still go to church because you believe that it's important, and there are other things that you get out of it, and you want to be part of a community and you want to be a contributing member. And, also, please be sure that you continue to honor, and express your gratitude, and your worship for God as you see God's handiwork all around you, in the natural world. 

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Number two, Thomas talks about sensates. These are people who experience God through their senses, primarily. They might enjoy incense, for example. You might go to a liturgical church where they have incense, where there are the smells, there's beautiful, sacred, music. Maybe the Eucharist is really important because it's this concrete way that you can actually experience the body. 

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These are folks who are going to really experience God through their senses. Through what they can see, taste, feel, and touch. It reminds me of Doubting Thomas, who wanted to touch Jesus's hands. He needed to actually see the hands and put his fingers on it, and touch it to believe, and Jesus honored that. Jesus allowed him that opportunity. 

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Number three are traditionalists. These are people who experience God most through rituals, often in a structured church setting. They want this really traditional, they might like the old hymns. The traditional church service with the sermon and the Scripture reading, and there's a way in which the order and the structure of that service really matters. 

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They might like the liturgy. If you go to a liturgical church, an Anglican church or a Catholic church, everything in that order of service is thought out completely, and that structure is maintained consistent, over time. There are folks for whom this is very comforting. This really helps them connect to some of the logic of the faith. Sometimes I think of logical folks where they want a logic, they want an order to things. Things should be laid out in a certain way. 

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And then Thomas talks about the ascetic. These are people who experience God more through solitude, through simplicity, through self-discipline. They're going to be engaged in some of the disciplines of fasting. Things are going to be quieter. They might be more intra-personal than interpersonal. 

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Meaning they like that solitude, that simplicity, that spaciousness, to attune to the contents of their own soul. And that is a form of inviting God in, and that's more intuitive and more natural for them than being around a lot of people. And a lot of American churches and a lot of Western churches are very extroverted in nature. They're very people-centric, where the aesthetic might want to pull apart and spend a lot of time in quiet contemplation. 

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Then we move really to the opposite of that which is the caregiver. And these are folks who really connect to God through caring for others, being with others, serving others. These are the folks who might be more interpersonally inclined. They pick up on the needs of others. They pick up on the cues of others. If you are someone like this, and you're at a church service or in a room full of people and you're aware of where the needs are and you intuitively know how to meet them.

And, so, you're able to use that intelligence, that form of giftedness, that God has given you, to serve others more easily. Now, that's not to say that the ascetic doesn't also need to serve others but it might look a little bit different. They might get overwhelmed in a large group. They might not know how to pick up on the needs of others, without being taught what those needs are. But it doesn't mean that they don't also have ways to serve others. But it just may look a little bit different. 

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And then we move to the enthusiasts; these are the people who experience God through emotional, lively, worship. There's a lot of passion in the way that they relate to God. These are folks who might be musical, who want to express their love for God through music. These could be folks who are kinesthetic, who want to express their love of God through dance. Or these could be people who are very visual, and who want to express their love of God through creating beautiful spaces. 

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Regardless, they are wanting to experience God through an expression of sorts. Whether an expression of voice, of movement, of beauty. And then we move to the contemplatives; these are folks who, Thomas describes, are people who experience God more through quiet. Maybe through prayer, through reflection, through contemplation. 

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These are folks who are perhaps, again, more intrapersonally focused. They might be more introspective. They might not be as comfortable with the external expressiveness of some church gatherings. They may prefer to be quietly reflective. They may appreciate forms of mindfulness. 

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Mindfulness is the practice of paying attention to your own thoughts, to your own emotions. It's healthy for everybody. But folks who are more contemplative may excel more at this intrapersonal ability to reflect on the states of their internal lives and they need more quiet in which to do that. 

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And, lastly, we have what Thomas called intellectual pathways to God. These are people who experience God through their intellect. They enjoy studying, learning, and analyzing spiritual truths. These might be folks who are more inclined toward those logical or even those linguistic types of intelligence. Where they're wanting to read commentaries, dissect Scripture, talk about ideas, even write out ideas to try to make sense of them. And they're using those particular gifts to help them understand God better. 

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The bottom line is that there are a lot of ways to honor God with the minds He has given us. Whether you are somebody who loves to analyze, and logic, and reason. Or whether you are somebody that prefers an emotional experience, or an embodied experience, or a musical experience. Or maybe you're somebody who really sees the face of God in the people in front of you. Whether it's your own children, a neighbor, a friend, or the people who you minister to. 

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Whether you're somebody who likes to be alone, for long periods of time, so that you can really deeply attune to your own soul, and that's what brings you into the arms of God. Or whether you're somebody who finds yourself by a lake, or in the mountains, or in a meadow, and you are just brought to your knees in awe of this God who created all of these things. 

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You might be somebody who's more philosophical. You ask the hard questions, and your pathway to God is to engage in hard questions and seeing lots of different sides of the coin of different Christian beliefs. Whatever it is you honor God as you turn toward what is good, what is beautiful, and what is pleasing to Him. As Paul writes, "In view of God's mercy, offer your minds, your bodies, your souls, as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God - This is your spiritual act of worship. 

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< Outro >

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Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you'd take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode, and it helps get the word out to others.

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While you're there, I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

Exciting News! This week marks the launch of our brand new series, My Favorite Psychology Tools, and we're kicking things off with a deep dive into the fascinating world of personality types. With so many fads and trends out there, it can be hard to know what's actually backed by research. That's why we're here to separate fact from fiction and give you the inside scoop on what personality really is and what the latest research tells us about it.

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Here's what we cover:

1. What is personality and why we're so fascinated with it

2. The benefits and pitfalls in personality tests

3. The 5 most researched personality traits

4. The mysterious H Factor and why it's so important

5. How personality traits show up in the Bible⁠

Want to receive free bonus content? ⁠⁠⁠Sign up for my free weekly email here

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Resources

• Episode 1: What Is Narcissism Really?
• Info on Myers Briggs
• ‍Please Understand Me by David Keirsey and Marilyn Bates
• ‍Think Again by Adam Grant
• Read more about the Big 5 Personality Traits
• ‍O-C-E-A-N
• ‍H-E-X-A-C-O
• ‍Quiet by Susan Cain
• ‍H factor of personality
• ‍1 Corinthians 12:12-31
• ‍"Understanding is the basis for care." -Dallas Willard
• ‍Resources for support

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‍Thanks to our sponsors:

• ‍‍Go to ⁠⁠⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ ⁠⁠today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.  
• Order Aundi Kolber's new book, ⁠⁠Strong Like Water⁠⁠ today!
• Visit ⁠hiyahealth.com/BESTOFYOU ⁠and get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You Podcast. I am so glad you're here. I love preparing these episodes for you and your feedback, and your comments, and your emails mean so much to me. I loved hearing from so many of you about what you are hoping I will cover in this brand-new series, which starts today.  

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I am so excited about this series because I'm a little bit of a geek when it comes to all of these different assessments, and inventories, and tools, and lists, that we have available to us from the field of psychology. These are the kinds of tools that help us understand ourselves better, and therefore help us understand the people that we love better. 

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Today we're going to talk about personality. And I'm going to share with you the six most researched personality traits in psychology, and why I think it's helpful to understand these different traits, and what I think the pitfalls can be. We're also going to touch on how they correlate, loosely, and in an unscientific matter, with some of the spiritual gifts that we see described in Scripture. 

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I remember the very first time I was introduced to a personality test, back in the day, it was when I was in college. I went to the Career Counseling Center, on my college campus at Dartmouth in Hanover, New Hampshire. They had me take a personality test, and this was a long time ago, it was the MBTI, which many of you know as the Myers Brigg. 

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It's a very popular test to this day, although, it's actually not very reliable as an assessment, as it turns out. So I'm actually not going to cover it today. But it does create some really interesting categories that are helpful for discussing our differences. And, sure enough, in my case, when I took that test, it was like all the lights went on. 

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I think this was the moment, in time, when I realized I was destined to be a psychologist because I just got so excited about it. I started figuring out how to give it to everybody I knew. If you were a family member, if you were a friend of mine, I was having you take this test or a variation of this test, that's actually in a book called Please Understand Me. You can take a sort of form, it's a little bit different, it's a variation on the MBTI.

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But at the time, I was having everybody I know take that test. And, in particular, what really spoke to me from that experience of taking a test, at a college counseling center, probably, I was 20, maybe 21 at the time, long time ago, was that last category. And if you know the MBTI, you'll know what I'm talking about. 

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But there's a category on it that gets at how we make decisions and it's a J versus P category. Judgers test out to be people who tend to really like planning. They're very decisive, they're very organized, they like structure, they like schedules. They make decisions in advance so they can plan for them. And people who are perceivers tend to be in the moment. They tend to not like too much certainty. They tend to be more flexible and spontaneous in their decision making and lifestyle. They tend to be more in the moment. 

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For example, a perceiver is someone who will say, "Well, I don't know what to do until I get there." If you're married to a perceiver, if you are a perceiver, you'll understand what I'm saying. If someone says to you, "Well, what do you want to do next Friday night?? You are like, "I won't know until it's next Friday night." That's a perceiver. 

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Whereas a judger would say, "Here is the plan. Here's what we're going to do Friday, and here are the ten steps we're going to execute to prepare us to do that on Friday." It's a really different way of making decisions. But at this moment, at this particular time in my life, as a young 20 something year old student, I tested out as a perceiver. And when I saw that on the test, what I began to realize is that, oh, my gosh, something I had thought was bad in myself. 

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Something I had been judging in myself; I'm a procrastinator, I wait till the last minute. Here I was, a fairly high-achieving student. I knew how to get things done, but I did things a little differently than most of the members of my family, than most of my peers. Than most of my friend group, and I'd been shaming myself for that. I'd been judging myself for that. 

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And when I saw in the test, "Oh, my gosh, I'm just different, I'm not bad." It was this whole new way of looking at the world and looking at myself. Just that simple designation of "Oh, my goodness, there's a category to describe how I am, and therefore I can begin to accept how I am, and build on that to grow. Versus shaming myself, or blaming myself, or even hating myself, for a certain way of being in the world." 

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It really popped open everything for me. "I'm not bad. I'm just different." And I began to realize there's a lot of flexibility, a lot of spontaneity. There are good qualities, and sometimes some indecisiveness, that can also drive myself and other people crazy. 

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But I began to be aware of the value in understanding basic human differences, where we're different from each other. And it was my very first glimpse into this idea of what it feels like foundational to everything I do, which is a non-shaming way of naming something that is just simply true. And this illustration is the best of what I think these kinds of personality assessments can do. 

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Now I'm going to get to the pitfalls for those of you who are a little skeptical, stay with me. But let's talk about what is helpful about these kinds of personality assessments. Number one, they help us understand ourselves better, both our strengths and our limitations. They help us not to judge or shame ourselves. But as we describe some of these personality traits, it leads to greater self-acceptance. And, as I've said numerous times, self-acceptance is actually the soil in which we can grow, heal, and change. It's not self-condemnation. 

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And, so, these are tools to just help us name things so that we can begin to accept them. So that we can then begin to grow in healthy ways. Because, as Dallas Willard said, "Understanding is the basis for care."

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Number two, these types of personality assessments can help us begin to ask for what we need in our relationships. Instead of getting annoyed at someone else for being different from us, for not understanding our inherent needs, and our inherent preferences, and our inherent ways of being in the world. 

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We can start to name things together, "This is how I tend to function. This is how you tend to function, let's come together and figure out how to optimize and maximize how we can bring the best of who we are together. Instead of me trying to get you to change or you trying to get me to change."

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We can start to say, "Hey, I want to honor the way you are and I need you to understand that it works a little differently for me." And, then, lastly, that leads right into our differences help us work better together. 

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Adam Grant, who's a Wharton organizational psychologist, has a great book called Think Again, and I love this book. He talks about how important it is for us to intentionally put people around us who are different from us, who challenge us. Who help us see things from different perspectives. 

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So the more I understand myself, and I'm confident in myself, and I'm not shaming myself. The more I actually am grateful for the way that you see things that is different, 

or the way you make decisions, or the way you approach the world, or approach this relationship.  And I can start to value that and incorporate elements of that in my approach. 

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This just dramatically impacts the health of our friendships, of our marriages, of our communities. When we begin to name, and see, and honor our differences versus trying to get everybody to be a "Yes" man or a cheerleader for the type of person we are. 

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We have more confidence the more we understand ourselves to invite in differences. So this is one of the things I love about psychology assessments. It's one of the things that I'm just going to geek out on throughout this series. But I do think this understanding of individual differences, is one of the gifts the field of psychology has brought to us. 

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Now, there are also some pitfalls to focusing on individual differences in personality. It's a relatively new phenomenon, we really only started studying personality as a psychological construct in the last century. And while there's so much helpful information, from the field of psychology about individual differences, there can also be pitfalls. 

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So this is for all you cynics out there, but also just for everybody to remember, we have to hold these things always in tension. So number one pitfall, is what I would call hyper individualism. This is an extreme form of individualism; where individuals prioritize their own interests, their own needs, their own preferences, their own need for self-expression above all else. Including the needs of others and the needs of the collective or the community around them. Whether it's a family, a church group, a community, or even a nation. 

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This form of hyper individualism prioritizes personal freedom, autonomy, and self-expression so much that we almost reject the idea of collective or shared responsibility. Of coming together as a community, of our social obligations. Of this idea of being a good citizen for the whole of our society. 

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So if we swing too far, imagine this as a pendulum and you can think, historically, where it was like we looked at the good of the group. We needed the community, we needed the whole. And then we swung, and I do put psychology a little bit to blame for the swing toward hyper individualism. Where we emphasize or prioritize the individual so much above and beyond the group. That it's almost impossible to come together and that is not healthy either. 

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While we want to understand the individual, and the individual's needs, and the individual's preferences, we also have to be able to set aside some of who we are for the good of the greater whole. The greater community in which we live. 

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Hyper individualism can lead to more isolation, more loneliness, less community. Because we are so focused on becoming our individual selves, we forget how to move toward each other in our relationships. So it's so important to strike a balance. We only want to understand ourselves, insofar as we can bring more of who we really are into creating healthier relationships with other people. 

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Number two, focus on personality traits can lead to stigmatizing. We can take a personality trait, label somebody, and sometimes weaponize it. And I talk about this in the very first episode of this podcast, episode one on narcissism. The importance of describing patterns of behavior versus labeling individual people. And number three, we risk oversimplifying complex behaviors and situations. 

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So, for example, when we talk about personality traits, we also need to understand that traits develop in the midst of our cultural environments. They develop in the midst of our traumas. They develop in the midst of specific situations, all of which have an impact on how we behave. So we don't want to reduce people, simply, to a personality style, without understanding all of the factors that go into making us who we are. 

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Remember, the goal of learning more about ourselves is not to become entitled, to glorify the individual self. It's not to label other people. It's not to oversimplify complicated situations. The goal is that as you begin to understand more about yourself, you become more whole inside yourself as an individual, as the person God made. You actually become healthier in your relationships. You become a healthier contributor to your family, to your community, and ultimately to this world. 

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< Music >

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So what is personality? Well, psychologists define personality as "A set of enduring traits and characteristics that make you individually unique". Your personality includes your patterns of thinking, feeling, and behaving that are relatively consistent over time, and across a variety of different situations. So when someone has a fairly stable personality, which is what we look for in a healthy person. You can predict, a little bit, how they're going to react in different situations over time. 

If you think about your kids, or you think about your spouse, or you think about your friends, there's not a lot that surprises you. You could have some ability to go, "That's how they're going to act when that situation happens." There's a way in which people just are who they are. God created each one of us to be so extremely unique, and I think that's just so beautiful. That there's no one person that is the same as another person. There's no one who is exactly like you, and it just gets at the amazing creativity in our God. So it's a beautiful thing to understand. 

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Personality is influenced by a variety of factors, including your genetics. Some of this is just your biology. Some of it is your upbringing, your family of origin, this is the nature versus nurture. Psychologists have really come down squarely on it's both. It's both your DNA, your genetics, your nature, and also it's the environment in which you were raised your family, your community, the environment around you. 

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Personality is also influenced by our larger cultural environment. Cultural studies are very interesting. For example, how does it shape us to be raised in America? And I think this is why it's so important to get outside of this cultural American mindset, that can get so myopic. And place ourselves, whether through studying, or reading, or understanding, or physically going to a different culture and realizing, especially, as Christians, "Oh, my gosh, so much of who we are and what we believe is shaped by this overlay of our Americanism."

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If you've had trauma, if you've been abused, if you've experienced racism, misogyny, bullying. If you've been marginalized, if you've grown up in poverty, these things have an impact to some degree on how your personality forms. So, again, it's really important not to oversimplify these personality traits. They are influenced by a number of factors. With that being said, I want to get into what are what psychologists call the big five traits of personality. 

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So this is a well-researched theory of personality that originated in the mid-20th centuries, that hypothesizes there are five basic dimensions of personality. And actually there's a 6th dimension that has surfaced in the last decade that we'll also look at today. These dimensions of personality tend to be reliable, over time. They tend to be reliable descriptors of different traits that most people across cultures have to varying degrees, and they tend to be discrete. Meaning these tend to be discrete from each other. You could test high in one and low in another. 

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So these big five personality traits tend to be universal. One study looked at people from more than 50 different cultures, and found that these five dimensions could be accurately used to describe personality, and they exist on a spectrum. And, so, this is where the big five, sometimes it's called O-C-E-A-N or H-E-X-A-C-O, if you add in that six factor, these are acronyms to explain these. 

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While you'll see similarities, if you're someone who's familiar with the Myers Brigg, you might see similarities in these traits. But here's one of the big differences is these exist on a spectrum. So, for example, if you take a Myers-Brigg Type Indicator Test, you're going to test out as either an introvert or an extrovert. 

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However, if you use one of these O-C-E-A-N or H-E-X-A-C-O assessments, it's going to put you on a spectrum. And I think about human behavior, it just makes more sense. 

You're not either an extrovert or an introvert. You might be more inclined toward extroversion and less inclined toward introversion. But you could look much more similar to an introvert if you're 52% of an extrovert than you might look like someone who is an extreme extrovert. 

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So I like this way that it measures things on a spectrum. And, then, lastly, these are not prescriptive they're descriptive. And what I mean by that is if you find yourself testing high in one of these personality traits that you don't really like, it doesn't necessarily mean this is the person you're going to become. 

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So, again, these are descriptive. So if you find yourself testing high on a personality trait that you don't really like or don't wish that you had, it doesn't mean that it's telling you what kind of person you have to become. There are lots of different kinds of people in the world and lots of different ways of relating to these different traits. It's just helpful, again, to name, "Okay, wow, I'm not someone who's really high in this quality, I'm lower in it. So what does that mean for me and the kind of person that I want to become?"

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That's what I mean by it doesn't prescribe the kind of person that you have to become. That's between you and God, and the choices that you make, and the people you put around yourself. But it does describe a little bit of where you are now and what this is going to look like for you, and that your journey is going to look a little different than my journey. 

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Because we start out at a different place. We're starting out on different paths. And if you think about that mountain we're both trying to climb of becoming a more whole, beautiful version of the person God made us to become. Your path is just going to look different than mine. 

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They're going to take different winds, and different turns, and we're going to go up different, treacherous parts, and you're going to go through different valleys because of your starting at a different baseline. But we both have to go down that path of growth. We both have to go down that path of becoming more of the person God wants us to become, and we're both going to hit different landmines.

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So it's descriptive, not prescriptive. You're going to go down this path, and your path may start looking great, and you'll see what I mean when we get into these traits. Like, "I've got this easy path, I'm a really agreeable person." But, oh, my goodness, you are still going to hit some valleys. And my path may look treacherous at the start, it's like, "Whoa, this is really hard for me, this particular trait. This part of my personality, is just I came out of the womb this way, this is going to be hard for me."

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But guess what, you're going to hit some beautiful oasis that I may never taste. So we don't want to compare our different journeys to each other. So what are these big five personality traits? So we're going to use this O-C-E-A-N acronym, number one, Openness to experience. And if you imagine this spectrum in front of you, someone high in openness is very creative, very imaginative, inventive, very curious. 

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They like to try new things. They're open to new ideas. If you imagine that path, this person's going to be someone who's like, "I'm so excited, let's see where the path goes." And they might not really wait to run down the path. That's what it looks like if you're high in openness. 

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Now, if you're lower on the openness scale, you're someone who tends to be more concrete. You don't like change. You're not super creative, maybe, you're more literal, you're more into facts, more into data. 

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You may be looking down your path going, "What are these types of flora and fauna in front of me? I want to understand them." You're not just going to race down into the adventure. You're going to understand the concrete details and data in front of you before you even take any steps, and when you do start to take those steps, they'll be very cautious and measured. And I'm sure you're already imagining people that where they maybe test out on this scale. 

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Number two, the C is Conscientiousness. This is a dimension of personality; everybody has an orientation to conscientiousness. It refers to a tendency to be organized, responsible, and reliable. Someone high in conscientiousness might be more efficient, more organized, more able to get things done. They tend to plan ahead. And, so, what's really interesting is imagine someone who tests high on conscientiousness and high on openness to experience. 

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So they might be very creative and simultaneously very organized. So we're complex. Or if you're someone really high on openness and low on conscientiousness, that's the person that's just going to run down that path without putting on a backpack, without getting prepared, without thinking about what they're going to eat. And, again, the beginning of that path might look amazing, but they're going to hit some landmines that they got to learn to work through down the road. 

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If you're someone lower on conscientiousness, you might be a little bit more careless, a little bit more extravagant, maybe more free spirited. People low in conscientiousness tend to dislike structure and schedules. They might procrastinate. They might wait till the last minute to complete tasks. 

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Now, remember, there are other factors that go into why each person has some of these traits. So let's take, for example, if you have a child who tends to be very careless. They can't find their homework to save their life. They're always getting, on their report card, that they're disorganized. They turn in things late. It might be tempting to say, "Well, they're not conscientious, they're careless." Which can sound stigmatizing. So remember, we are not using these traits to stigmatize, they're descriptive, not prescriptive. 

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Instead, when you describe, you say, "Wow, okay, I have a child or I have a spouse or me, I am someone that scores fairly low on this test. I have a hard time staying organized. I don't really like it, people have described me as careless. I wonder what that's about, and is there a moral undertone to it?" Sometimes there is, sometimes we just don't care about other people. But it could mean there's an underlying neurological issue, such as ADHD, or another neurotypical diagnosis. 

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Now, I'm not saying everybody who's careless has some sort of neurological deficit. What I am saying is it's an opportunity to get curious. What's going on that's contributing to this? And then at the end of the day, even as you become the best of who you are, you may well be someone who struggles a little bit with disorganization, for whatever reason. 

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Again, the goal is not to shame ourselves; the goal is to name, understand, describe, get all the data as to why this might be true for you. And then just move the needle of growth just a little bit, as you're looking down your path, the trail you have to blaze. It's like, "Okay, I'm someone that's going to lose things on this path. I'm someone that's going to have a hard time staying organized. And, so, what do I need to do to equip myself so that I stay safe?"

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Again, the beginning of that path might feel a little bit more fraught because there's going to be a little steeper learning curve for you. Maybe you need to ask other people, say, "Hey, this isn't my forte, this isn't my strength. Can you come alongside of me?" 

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Again, this is where it leads us to community, not away from community. When we begin to name and tame these things. We say, "I need a buddy, I don't want to go down this path alone because I'm going to lose things. So can you be my buddy, that helps me stay organized because you're great at that." So this is how these kinds of self-awareness, self-understanding, can help bring us into healthier relationships with other people. 

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Number three, the E is Extroversion. Now, extroversion is less about how much you talk or how outgoing you are, and more about how you derive energy.  Extroverts tend to derive energy from external stimuli, especially social activities. Extroverts tend to go to parties, engage with a lot of people, and come back more energized. They feed off the external energy. It doesn't mean you're the loudest person in the room, necessarily, but it does mean that you gain energy from other people. 

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On the other hand, if you score low on this continuum, if you score closer to introversion, you gain more energy through solitary activities, through being alone, through being in nature. You might have to ration how much you are with other people because it depletes you. It doesn't mean you don't like other people. It doesn't mean you're not good with other people. It just means that being with other people and being with a lot of external stimuli is depleting for you. Again, it's just really helpful to understand and to not shame yourself. 

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There's a wonderful book about introversion called Quiet by Susan Cain. It's been a bestseller for years because she just named some of the really unique challenges for introverts, especially, in our world and, especially, our country here in America, that tends to value extroversion. It's a great book, I highly recommend it. 

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Number four is Agreeableness. Someone who scores high in agreeableness tends to make other people feel good. They're easy to get along with. They value harmony. They want the good of the group, sometimes above their own individual needs. They tend to be warm, empathetic, and sensitive to the needs of others. If you score high in agreeableness, you might struggle with people pleasing. 

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At the same time, people who are high in agreeableness tend to get along well with others. So there are ways in which people who are high in agreeableness, if you're looking at their path that they're ready to hike. It may look like, "Man, they have it so easy, people just naturally like them, they're just walking through a meadow."

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However, folks who are high in agreeableness are also going to have to figure out how to manage that. So that they don't disconnect from their own needs, from their own convictions, from their own values. Folks who score lower on this scale tend to be more what, in this framework, is called disagreeableness. They might be a little bit more critical. They might be more willing to be direct, to state what they really see, to speak up in a contrary manner. To not go along with the group, to point out flaws. 

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Now, I want to be very clear here, there is a need for all types of people. And, again, Adam Grant, in his book Think Again, talks about how we need some of these quote-unquote "Disagreeable people" in our lives. 

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We need to have people in our lives who don't just like everything we say and do, who don't just agree with everything we want. But who are willing to stand up and say, "Hey, I'm not so sure about that." So, again, wherever you score, on this spectrum, there are pros and cons. There are temptations and benefits, God uses all kinds of people.  

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Number five is Neuroticism, and that's just a word that they use for this trait which is really related to emotionality. If you score high in neuroticism, you're likely more emotionally volatile. You're more susceptible to getting taken over by emotions, especially, negative emotions. You're more sensitive to stressors in the environment. You might have a greater tendency toward anxiety. I think sometimes of that word melancholy, you're just more aware of what's negative around you. 

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There's a tendency to maybe be a little bit more prickly about life. And if you think about folks where we say, "All those things just roll off their back", the opposite of that as well. If you're a little prickly things stick to you, it's harder for you. And, again, this isn't a great example, if you're somebody who scores higher in neuroticism.

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It might be tempting to look down your path and go, "Oh, man, all I see is the forest and the dangers and what's going to be hard, and that person over there is just prancing down the path. They're scoring low on this, they are more emotionally stable. They don't tend to take things too hard. Emotions tend to roll off their back. Man, why is this so hard for me?"

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But, again, it takes all different kinds of people. What's important to know is "This is how I am, it's not bad or good. What is my journey going to look like? And what do I need from God, from the people around me, to help me thrive on my journey toward wholeness?"

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The truth is there are just some people for whom life hits a little harder. There's a little bit more emotional volatility. There's a little bit more of that susceptibility to the negative. And it's just so helpful to know yourself, not to shame yourself or wish you're somebody you're not. And to begin to live this life God has given you with your unique personality and your unique makeup. 

Now, I want to touch on this 6th trait that has surfaced more recently. I love this. This is such fascinating research, to me, it's called the H Factor. And this H Factor refers to Honesty-Humility. And what is so interesting about this factor, this dimension of personality, is that these two traits really go together. It's considered one trait Honesty-Humility.

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They're intimately linked honesty and humility, think about that for a second. From a psychological perspective, they tend to exist on one dimension. That means they're hard to measure, separate from each other honesty and humility. I mean, this just amazes me and brings delight to my soul at the wonder of how God made us, and how it's reflected in science, and in psychology.

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It's hard to be an honest person and not be a humble person. It's hard to be a humble person and not be an honest person. And I think as followers of Jesus, that just makes so much sense. If we are really honest about ourselves and honest about who we are before God, there's just no way around humility. 

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But if we're deceiving ourselves and we're deceiving others, and we're lying about who we are. And we're denying aspects of who we are which also means we're going to end up exploiting, mistreating, and using and abusing others. Folks who are high in this Honest-Humility dimension tend to be sincere, honest, fair, not greedy and unassuming. They're not full of themselves. They don't try to puff themselves up. 

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On the other hand, folks who are low in this factor, in this Humility-Honesty factor tend to be more interested in their own status and power. They tend to be more willing to engage in lying, or manipulating, or trying to exploit other people to get ahead. They tend to have a sense of entitlement about their own self-importance, as if they deserve or are owed certain things. 

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Now, here's the thing about this scale. If you are someone who is aware of your own sense of entitlement, of your own propensity to ego, of your own self-centeredness, you are going to be further up toward that Honesty-Humility scale. It's such a paradox. The more we know ourselves and the more we see our ego, our self-centeredness, our pride, our entitlement, the more honest and humble we become. 

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Humility about our areas of deceptiveness, of arrogance, of self-centeredness, is the beginning of health. What's more scary are folks who cannot face the truth about our own sinful, toxic, propensities.   

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< Music >

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As we close, I want to touch on some practical takeaways. As well as an insight from the Bible and how we can think about these personality traits. So I want to circle back to why it's important to understand ourselves on these different spectrums. 

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Number one, when we understand ourselves, "We name it to tame it," as Dan Siegel says. For example, I am someone who's fairly high on this neuroticism scale. My emotions are pretty volatile, I feel them. They go up and down, for whatever reason, things do not just roll off my back. That's how I am in my marriage. That's how I am as a parent. That's how I am as a friend. And you know what, I'm going to stop shaming myself for that. I'm going to name it. I'm going to try to understand it. 

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What are the factors that contribute to that? 

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What are some of the contributing factors? Is there some trauma in my life? 

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Am I someone who's just naturally an HSP, a highly sensitive person? 

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Am I somebody who has more of a just biological predisposition to anxiety? 

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What are the different factors that contribute to this? 

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Where are areas that I can heal, that I can work on? 

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What are areas that are just out of my control? This is just the way God made me. We begin to go down a journey of self-investigation, to arrive at healthier and healthier degrees of understanding of ourselves.  Are there certain cultural experiences that have contributed to this? 

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Did I grow up in poverty? 

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Did I grow up in a racist environment? 

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Did I grow up in an environment that taught me to be anxious because it was completely unsafe? 

Okay, help me understand that, God, what are some of the things I can do to heal? 

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What are some of the things I can change? 

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What are some of the things I cannot change? Because if you test out fairly highly on this scale, you're not going to be able to turn yourself into an emotionally phlegmatic person, a laid back person. You will be able to move the needle a little bit. You will be able to grow, but more importantly, you're going to be able to help put the people around you. You're going to be able to equip yourself, as you head out on this journey that God has put before you. 

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You're going to be able to ask for what you need from the people around you. You're going to be able to stop shaming yourself. You're going to be able to equip yourself with tools to stay healthy. For example, because I am a more anxious person, some of these X, Y, and Z activities don't work for me. 

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Maybe they work for you and that's great, but I have to be careful with my energy. I have to be careful with my time. I need to be careful with where I expend some of my energy. Because I need to stay healthy; and the best way I can be a parent, or a spouse, or a friend, or a community member is to really stay healthy myself and I'm just going to claim that.

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We stop condemning ourselves. If you're someone who tests really high on this emotionally phlegmatic, things just don't get to you scale. It's helpful to know that not to take pride in it, but to go, "Wow, what does this mean for me? What do I have to contribute to others? And how do I need to ensure that I'm not bypassing certain negative situations, that I actually also need to face?" So you've also got a journey toward wholeness. 

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So understanding where you begin is not just a, "Hey, this is great, life is good. I'm just going to coast through life for the rest of my days."

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No, it means I have to go, "Hey, Lord, this is a gift and it's also something I need to be mindful of. How do I honor others with this gift? And, also, how do I ensure that I'm not just putting my head in the sand, and not facing situations that need to be faced."

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We stop condemning ourselves and we start accepting these traits in ourselves, as well as in others, and we begin to work together for the good of everyone. Number two, we stop projecting our own needs and issues onto other people, and start taking responsibility for our own selves. And, so, what I mean by projecting is we stop saying to other people, "You're just so uptight."

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You're just so careless."

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When really what we mean is, "Things don't really get to me." Hear the humility in that. "Things don't really get to me, but I know that they really get to you, and that's okay. Let's both just name that as a dynamic in our relationship. I'm pretty laid back, things don't roll off your back, and there's no better or worse than that."

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So we stop projecting onto other people. "What's wrong with you that you don't want to go to all these parties with me? That you don't want to sign up for all these social events with me? What's wrong with you?" And, then, maybe, we even moralize it, "You're not Christian enough, that you don't want to go to all these highly extroverted church activities." 

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When what we really mean is, "I love these social activities, they're fun for me. I get energized by them." And the other person is like, "Yes, and they exhaust me, and if you want me to be a healthy partner, or a healthy parent, or a healthy friend, I can't go to all of these." So we begin to own and take personal responsibility for our side of the street, instead of projecting and criticizing onto others. 

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Another one is, "Why do you have to be such a contrary and always picking me apart, always telling me what's wrong with me? If I bring to you an idea, can't you just say, 'That's great, I love it.'" This is a classic example of a difference between somebody who's high in agreeableness and someone who's more disagreeable. And there's a way in which you can begin to label dynamics in your relationships, without criticizing, shaming, or projecting on the other person. 

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So, for example, in that dynamic, you might say, listen, "I'm someone, when I bring you an idea, it would just mean so much to me in this context if you just said, 'That's so interesting, tell me more.' That's a way you could love me. And I know that I'm not going to act on it, and I'm not going to go do something foolish. I know that it's important to you to pick it apart and analyze it from every different angle, and I want you to do that at a certain point. 

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But today, in this conversation, I just want to raise this and have you go, 'That's so fun.'" And you can start to coach a partner or a friend along to understand you. And that person who's more critical, who likes to pick things apart, can say, "Listen, this is how I am. This is how my mind works. I see something and I just start to shred it. 

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I just start to see it from all different angles and I can't help myself. I'm not trying to be a jerk here and I'm working on it, and sometimes when I do this, it's not personal. So let's work together on this and on how this dynamic affects our relationship so that we can each support each other."

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So we start to be able to help each other work with the grain of who we are and, simultaneously, we're no longer demanding that people just accept us exactly as we are. We are the ones in the right, "My way is the right way. Well, you just have to accept me because this is who I am."

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Neither of those extremes works. Trying to get somebody to change doesn't work, and it also doesn't work to become entitled that "This is just how I am." Instead, as we name these dynamics, these variables, these traits, and we tame them and we look at all the nuances of them, we begin to come together, and we each become a healthier version of our God-given selves.  

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Finally, I want to talk about how this relates to some of the spiritual gifts that we see in the Bible. I love how Paul speaks about this balance that I've been describing throughout this episode in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27, and I'm going to read this from The Message version. I like this version for this audio because it's just fresh. It's less familiar to most of us. 

Here's what it says; "I want you to think about how all this makes you more significant, not less. A body isn't just a single part blown up into something huge. It's all the different but similar parts arranged and functioning together." This is Paul, I love this.

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"If foot said, 'I'm not elegant like hand embellished with rings, I guess I don't belong to this body,' would that make it so? If Ear said, 'I'm not beautiful like eye, transparent and expressive, I don't deserve a place on the head,' would you want to remove it from the body? If the body was all eye, how could it hear? If all ear, how could it smell? As it is, we see that God has carefully placed each part of the body right where He wanted it."

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But here's the rub, as Paul goes on, he cautions us toward the other extreme. So he's saying this makes us more significant, not less. More valued, more worthy, more important to the whole, not less. But then he goes on to caution against the other extreme. Here's what Paul says; "But I also want you to think about how this keeps your significance from getting blown up into self-importance. For no matter how significant you are, it is only because of what you are a part of."

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I'm going to read that again. "For no matter how significant you are; it is only because of what you are a part of. An enormous eye or a gigantic hand wouldn't be a body, but a monster. What we have is one body with many parts, each its proper size and its proper place. No part is important on its own. Can you imagine eye telling hand, 'Get lost; I don't need you.' Or head telling foot, 'You're fired, your job has been phased out.'"

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He goes on to say, "You are Christ's body." That's who you are, you must never forget this. Only as you accept your part of that body does your part mean anything. Paul then goes into a list of a lot of the different spiritual gifts that different parts of the body have. And I thought it was interesting as I was reading this, in light of these personality traits we've gone through in this episode, today. 

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So this is not scientific, but I want to propose this to you as we close. As you think about some of these biblical gifts that Paul describes. Number one, think about the apostles. Maybe they scored high on this extroversion scale. They liked people. They were constantly among other people. Maybe this allowed them to get energized out of their work. I don't know, I'm just imagining, I'm creative, I'm being high on the openness scale right now. 

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Think about the prophets; it's possible they might have been considered quite disagreeable in their time. I'm just saying these guys were not well liked when they would come along and point out all the negativity, all the hard things, all the things no one else wanted to see. And, yet, how beautiful and critical they are in the body of Christ and how beautiful they are to God, 

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Think about the healers and helpers, maybe, they're highly agreeable. They know how to bring empathy and healing balm to the souls of other people. The organizers, the administrators, that Paul describes, those who are perhaps highly conscientious. Those who pray in tongues, Paul talks about, maybe, these are the folks more open to these creative, innovative experiences that make some other folks uncomfortable. 

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We see it right there in Scriptures, there is a place for everyone and every type of personality in the body of Christ. Our goal is to learn the part we can play and play that part well. And as always, considering the example of Jesus in His honesty, in His humility, which I think is that dimension of who we are that is the most ripe for the transforming work and power of God's spirit. 

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< Outro >

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Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you'd take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others.

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While you're there, I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

Gosh, it can be hard to live in a body, let alone learn to love it. We have so many demands that compete for our attention, not to mention all the mixed up messages we get as women- how in the world are we supposed to take the time to honor these bodies God has given us?In today's episode I share with you more about my own journey of learning what it means to be an embodied person.

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Here's what we cover:

1. Why so many of us bypass the body

2. 4 insights from psychology about tending the body

3. 3 ancient heresies that sneak into our modern thinking

4. The difference between what the Bible calls "flesh" and "body"

5. How to start to honor your body as a daily practice

6. How I am learning to dance again (but definitely not in public)

‍Want to receive free bonus content? ⁠⁠⁠Sign up for my free weekly email here⁠

‍

Related episodes:

• Episode 11: How to Start Loving Your Body with Christy Joy
• Episode 19: My Stroke, A Process of Healing, and How I Began to Write The Best of You
• Episode 36: An Update on My Social Media Detox & How to Create Boundaries With Toxic Distractions, Numbing, & Unhealthy Coping Tactics
• Episode 44: Why Anger is a Surprising Friend, What Happens When You Avoid It, and How to Create Space for Healthy Expression of Anger in Your Family

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Resources

• ‍Boundaries for Your Soul Series
• ‍Try Softer, by Aundi Kolber
• ‍Strong Like Water, by Aundi Kolber
• ‍Somatic Therapy
• ‍John 14:15-17
• ‍1 Corinthians 6:19-20
• ‍Matthew 10:28
• ‍Luke 24:13-32
• ‍John 20:19-23
• ‍2 Samuel 6
• ‍Ecclesiastes 3:1-4
• ‍Psalm 149
• ‍Footloose Clip
• ‍H-A-L-T
• "The body is the envelope of the soul, which it serves to carry and to manifest. It is also the instrument of the soul, which it uses to effect whatever it desires. . . . Therefore, let us cherish the body as the divine workmanship that it is, and let us not defile it with impure thoughts and actions, but rather let us make it a partner in our spiritual life." - St. John of Damascus, An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith
• ‍"We are not angels, and our bodies are not separated from our souls; indeed, our Lord Himself has told us that we are not to kill the body. So we must try to make it holy and capable of serving God, so that, when it is united with the soul, the two will make a perfect dwelling-place for our Lord." - St. Teresa of Avila, The Way of Perfection
• ‍Resources for support

‍

‍Thanks to our sponsors:

• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at ⁠betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU⁠ and get on your way to being your best self.
• Go to ⁠⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ ⁠today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.  
• Order Aundi Kolber's new book, ⁠Strong Like Water⁠ today!

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to today's episode of The Best of You Podcast. Where we are in part two of a two-part series on Loving Your Body as a Spiritual Practice. Before we get started, I want to remind you that I do send out an email newsletter every week, with bonus content related to each episode. Almost, always, when I record one of these episodes, I realize that maybe a phrase or a word came up that didn't get explained clearly enough. So what I do in the weekly email is create some bonus content around some of those topics. 

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So in order to subscribe to that, it's free, it comes out once a week, you go to my website dralisoncook.com, and you'll see the Free Newsletter button right there. As my gift to you, for signing up, you'll get two free eBooks one on boundaries, and one on comparing ourselves to others. As well as a guided prayer reflection, that takes you through those steps that we covered in The Boundaries for Your Soul series. So you'll get those three free gifts, when you subscribe to my weekly newsletter. 

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My goal with this podcast, with everything I do, is to provide affordable resources to as many people as possible that brings together the best of what psychology and science are teaching us, with Christian faith and practice. So all of this is free for you, that's why we have advertisers on the podcast. For those of you who ask "Does advertisers help cover the cost of some of this work?" So I appreciate that we have this way of getting these resources out to you. 

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All right, so, today, I want to talk about living in a body. It can be hard to live in a body, even a healthy body, even a body that you love. Our bodies require our attention, they require work. And, frankly, I don't know that many folks, especially, women that have a really healthy relationship with their body.

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There are some, but so often our relationship with our body is fraught. Even when we don't have a clinical diagnosis, even when we are, for the most part, maybe, even relatively healthy physically or medically speaking. We still tend to have a pretty complicated relationship with our body. And here is the thing about these bodies that God gave us. This is going to be sort of a love letter to our bodies, in today's podcast episode. 

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Our bodies carry so much. Our bodies carry our pain, they carry our joy, they carry our anger, our rage, our frustration, our tension, our stress. They carry our fragility, they carry our tenderness, they carry all of our bad habits. 

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Sometimes we don't treat our bodies very well. We don't feed our bodies very well. We don't move our bodies in the way they need to be moved and, yet, they continue to show up for us every single day.

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Our bodies are amazing. We can neglect them; we cannot treat them right, we can discard them, sideline them, bypass them, as we talked about in last week's episode, on spiritual bypassing. We can ignore them and they still show up for us every single day. Our bodies matter. They help us metabolize our emotions. They help us pray. They help us honor our own limits. They help alert us to danger. They're a critical piece of this holistic life God has given us. That includes our mind, our emotions, our spirit, and our bodies. 

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But so often we disconnect from our bodies. We climb up into the safety of our minds. Where we can analyze, and criticize, and stay out of our bodies. But when we do that, we miss out on the beautiful embodied life God wants for us. 

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Now, personally, today's episode hits very close to home. Because over the last five months, I have been on a journey of learning how to care for my body. I wasn't expecting this process. Ever since I had a stroke, if you go back and listen to episode 19, I talk about how I had a stroke out of the blue, in the fall of 2020 with no known medical conditions. And as a result of having that stroke, and a lot of medical tests, and not finding anything wrong with me. There was still some mystery around what caused that. 

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Now, prior to that time, I'd never really paid that much attention to my body. I've been someone, to be honest with you, who has taken my body for granted. It's much easier for me to live a life inside my mind. I can crawl up outside of my body and just mentally talk myself out of anything that my body is feeling or bypass my own body, my physical limitations. I've known that I've done that. But up until I had that stroke and some serious medical issues, I didn't really do the things I know I've needed to do to care for my body.

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Well, fast-forward to fall of 2022, and I just started to notice some things that didn't feel quite right, I was tired. It didn't feel like the tired of, "Oh, I need a good night's sleep." My body wasn't working quite right. And, so, I decided to go off social media in November. That was what I thought was going to be my big detox. 

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I knew I needed some time away, just some time to step back. Again social media, it has some good things, I've talked about it in the last few weeks. It's how I've met some really neat friends. There's a lot of good about it, but it's very disembodied. It's by nature very addictive. It's just such an easy way, especially, at night, or especially when we're stressed, or we're tired, or we're emotionally down, or sad, or feeling anyway that we don't want to feel.

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It's such an easy way to pick up the phone and look for that dopamine hit from social media. And I had fallen into that habit a little bit. I've had pretty good habits with it in the past. But during this season, I had fallen into that habit a little bit. So I thought, "I'm going to just cut that out for a while, get back into some of these good habits."

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I thought it was going to be a quick fix, and it really ended up being much more involved. It, literally, was just the tip of that iceberg. And I began a journey, over the past five months, to completely change how I relate to my body and it's been a pretty intense process. I'm still in the middle of it. It's learning how to honor my body, as a spiritual practice. 

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And, at some point, I'll share more with you what that looked like in my life. And how I'm learning to incorporate the care of my body as an act of honoring God, as an act of worship, as an act of living out an embodied faith. It's been surreal, it's been intense, it's changed my life. 

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And, today, I want to share with you some of the psychology, of why our bodies are so important to our mental and emotional health. 

And I also want to share with you some theology, about why the body matters to God and some of the heresies that we unwittingly fall into. When we bypass, or sidestep, or minimize the importance of our bodies. 

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So I want to start off by talking about the field of somatic psychology. Which has done a lot to help us understand the relationship between the body, and the mind, and the emotions. It's a field of psychology that recognizes the body, not just as a physical entity. So like over here is our body; we need to eat well, we need to sleep well, we need to exercise, all these things that our medical doctors tell us. And then over here is our mind, and our spirit, and our emotions. And we do other things over here to help stay emotionally healthier, to stay spiritually healthy. 

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Well, what we now know, from psychology, is those two things are deeply interconnected, and I talk about that a lot in Episodes 45 and 46, with Aundi Kolber. And her new book, Strong Like Water, has a lot of information about that connection. 

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Here are some of the key principles that we have learned from psychology, as it relates to the body. Number one, it's the role of the nervous system and how the nervous system is this key part of us, that connects the mind, the emotions, the gut. Which gets at what we eat. What we put into our bodies that, literally, sends signals all day long back up to our brain. Which then influences our emotions, which then influences how we sleep. All of these things are interconnected. 

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Number two, somatic psychology talks about the importance of paying attention to physical sensations, that give us information about our external world. So, for example, tension in your body is a cue that you're tense. And that sounds obvious, but think about it for a minute. If you're going about your day and you're disconnected from your body, and then suddenly you notice that your shoulders are really hunched. That's a cue that you are not only disconnected from your body, but there's something that's bothering you. 

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And, so, instead of trying to beat yourself up because you're not feeling well, or you're in a bad mood, or maybe you're lashing out at your kids, or maybe you are feeling grumpy or off. What somatic psychology says is notice where the tension is in your body. And then maybe roll those shoulders that are tense, or maybe shake out those hands, or maybe wiggle those toes, or stretch out those legs. And as you begin to release the tension in your body, start to notice what happens emotionally, and I'm telling you, it'll be surprising. 

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I've been on a deep dive into this journey, in the last five months. You might notice tears start to come. You might notice "I don't want to do that because then I have to face the fact that I'm actually angry." So your body is holding that tension, or that discomfort, or that pain, or that emotion on your behalf so that you don't have to consciously feel it. This is what I mean when I say our bodies are amazing. 

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But our bodies also wear out. They need the rest of us to come online. They need us to work with them, not against them. And, so, as you start to notice where you hold tension in your body or pain in your body. Maybe it's pain that comes from a medical diagnosis. Maybe it's pain that comes from stress or tension, it could be either one. 

But either way, your body is telling you something. Your body might be telling you, "I need you to slow down. You're pushing me too hard." And you don't want to face that, and you don't want to name that. 

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But your body needs you to pay attention, and it's giving you a signal through that pain. And instead of beating on yourself, which I have done so often, more often than I like to admit, and saying, "Come on body, let's just get in line. Let's just give you some pseudo comfort by way of sugar, by way of comfort food, by way of a dopamine hit from social media." 

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Whatever the thing may be, "To whip you into shape instead of giving you the real comfort, the real help, the real nourishment you need. Body. I'm giving you a fake hit of something that only makes it worse, in the long run." How often do we do that to our bodies? 

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Instead of listening to them when they tell us, "I'm tired, I need you to slow down. I need you to move me in a kind and tender way. I need you to provide me with actual nourishment instead of a quick hit, that's not what I need from you." My body says, "I don't need that quick hit from you, I need real care."

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Number three, what we've learned from somatic psychology and psychiatry, is that trauma is stored in the body. Traumatic experiences that don't get metabolized. And what I mean by that is traumatic experiences that don't get witnessed, and cared for, and where the emotion is allowed to flow through the body. In a healthy way that is proportionate to the pain and the stress of the traumatic event, it gets stuck in the body. It's stored there. And this can affect not only our physical health, but our emotional health. 

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So we have to learn to work with the body as we heal from trauma that's been stored there. For example, it can be stored through tension, and imagine years and years of storing pain through habitual physical tension. It can be stored in our nervous system. 

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Where, again, you're constantly living out of that state of fight/flight. Instead of experiencing the homeostasis or the balance of a nervous system that is at rest, that is calm, that is able to be regulated, and restored to that home base. Where the body is restored to where it's not constantly monitoring the environment and living out of a stress response. 

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Trauma can disrupt bodily systems like digestion, like your immune system. There are so many ways, that psychiatrists and medical doctors are seeing the impacts of trauma on the ways in which these systems function.

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And, so, we have to pay attention to the body, sometimes, as one method, not only to relieve and alleviate some of the medical issues, but also to begin to tap into some of the emotional pain. This is why trauma-informed work is so important. If you've got a history of trauma, if you've got a history of unhealed pain, to work with a therapist who understand a trauma-informed approach. 

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And, finally, somatic psychology has taught us some very clear interventions for how to improve that connection between our mind and our body. Now, again, I always recommend Aundi's work on this. Both her first book Try Softer and her second book, Strong Like Water. 

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She's got some very practical interventions that help you begin to mend that connection between your mind and your body. But simply beginning to pay attention. To take all that energy of your mind that wants to avoid noticing what's happening in your body or bypass what's happening in your body, and beginning to pay attention to your body as a spiritual practice. And at the end of this episode, I'm going to walk you through some of the things I've been doing as I've begun to pay attention to my physical body, as a spiritual practice. 

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Before we get there, I want to just briefly mention why this is all part of Orthodox Christian theology. This is not some woo-woo, new-age thing. This idea of somatic psychology. This idea that our minds, and our emotions, and our spirit, are all connected to this body that God gave us. This is as ancient as the days. This is not some new idea. Orthodox Christian theology has always taught that the body is an integral part of the human being. It is not separate from the soul or the spirit.

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We see this in numerous ways in Scriptures. We see in John 14, where Jesus promises the coming of the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit would dwell within us and we would no longer relate to God only as an external being separate from us. But that the Spirit of God would come to live within our bodies.

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We see this in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 when Paul talks about the body being a temple of the Holy Spirit. 

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Now, often we think about that in terms of morality, in terms of sexuality, that's the context in which Paul is talking. But I would argue that it goes beyond that. And I would say we see it most clearly in the life of Jesus.

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I mean, how amazing is it that God became a human body? Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus lived in a body. And here are just some examples from early church fathers and mothers that show that this is not a new idea. St. John of Damascus, a Christian monk, from the eighth century wrote this beautiful phrase about the body, and I love this. 

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He said, "The body is the envelope of the soul, which it serves to carry and to manifest. It is also the instrument of the soul; which it uses to affect whatever it desires." So it goes both ways, he's saying. The body is the envelope of the soul; it carries the soul. It's such a beautiful love letter to the body, that it carries our souls for us. 

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What a gift! We couldn't be on this earth without it. What a gift, our bodies give to us. 

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And then, secondly, it's also the instrument of the soul. So as the mind wills, it acts through the body. And, so, we work together, all of these parts of us, in harmony with each other. And he goes on to say, "Therefore, let us cherish the body as the divine workmanship that it is. And let us not defile it with impure thoughts and actions, but rather let us make it a partner in our spiritual life." I love this. 

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And then St. Teresa of Ávila, a Spanish mystic and a Carmelite nun from the 16th century says this, "We are not angels and our bodies are not separated from our souls. Indeed, our Lord, himself, has told us that we are not to kill the body. So we must try to make it holy and capable of serving God. So that when it is united with the soul, the two will make a perfect dwelling place for our Lord."

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So, again, it's the body coming together as the envelope of the soul and the two working together in this dance of harmony. To both honor God and affect change in this world around us. So we need to honor this body, even as we want this body to help us do the work of honoring our minds, hearts, and souls. 

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Jesus spoke about the body in several occasions, in the gospels. In Matthew 10:28 He says, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the one," meaning the enemy. "Who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Now, oftentimes, this verse can seem as if we're saying the soul is more important. 

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So better to lose your body because your soul is actually more important. But that's not actually what Jesus is saying here. He's not saying that the body is not important. He's saying that the body will end, at some point. But we also know, from the life of Jesus, that His very body was also resurrected. And there are a lot of really smart theologians that have a lot of thoughts on what it means to have a resurrected body, and it's complicated, and it's mysterious. It's hard to understand what it will be like to be reunited with our bodies, for all eternity. 

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You think about the kinds of questions that kids ask, and I love these questions when they say, "Well, what age will I be, when I have the resurrected body? What age will I be?" It's hard for us to understand because we are so limited to these finite minds and these finite bodies. It's hard to understand the concept of eternity. 

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But there are a couple of things we do know Jesus lived in a body. Jesus died in a body, and Jesus was resurrected in a body. According to the New Testament, when the disciples first saw Jesus, in His resurrected body, it was clearly still His body, when they were on the road to Emmaus. When they encountered this man that they didn't quite recognize, so we know He didn't look exactly the same, there was something different. This is Luke 24:13-32. 

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Then it says in John 20:19-23, later that same day, "He showed them His wounds." So it was the same body, even though it looked a little different to them. He was in a body. And then on the Ascension, when He goes up to heaven, His body goes with Him. So there is some sense that the body is still a part of the picture, even after Jesus dies and is resurrected. 

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Which would suggest that our bodies will still be a part of the picture with us, not just for now, but for all of eternity. And, in fact, there are several heresies that emerged about the body in those early years, after Jesus died and rose from the dead. 

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History talks about a couple of heresies, one is called Gnosticism. And Gnosticism which showed up in those first few centuries, is much more similar to modern, new-age spirituality than what I was just describing to you we've learned from somatic psychology. Gnosticism believed in this idea that the material world, anything physical, including the human body, was inherently corrupt.

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So the goal of the spiritual life was to escape from the confines of the physical body, and live on the superior spiritual reign where you're above the limits of the body. You can transcend the limits of the body. And I'm telling you, if you spend any time in any new age spirituality, you will hear a lot of this language, and it's very insidious. 

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That could be a whole episode in and of itself, to begin to discern some of these Gnosticism heresies. That are especially prevalent again in some of these new-age spiritualties, but that are seeping into some of our Christian spirituality, too.

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And I want to underscore this idea that this is not a new idea, this paying attention to the body. Augustine spoke out, vehemently, against this idea that the material world, that the physical body, is evil and corrupt. The body was created as part of God's design. When you were created in the image of God and God called you good, that included your physical body. Adam was the first Adam. Jesus is called the second Adam; He came in a body. There's something about our bodies that matters.

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Now, there's a second heresy that surfaced during this third century, in the early, early parts of our Christian Church history called Manichaeism, and Manichaeism was what we called dualistic. And what we mean by dualism is that it divided the body from the spirit. And, again, not unlike what was going on with Gnosticism. They believed that the human body was inherently evil and that the spirit was inherently good.

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And, so, we're in this battle between good and evil. The spirit is good, the body is evil, and the two are fighting and combating. And this is really subtle, when you sometimes hear people talk about the battle between the spirit and the flesh. This is why I don't like to use that language, although, I understand, theologically, that that is a different thing. But when we talk about that battle between this spirit and the flesh, what sometimes makes me squirm a little bit, and I don't like it, is it's we do not mean that there's a battle between our spirit and our literal body. 

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When we talk about the battle between the spirit and the flesh. By the flesh we mean the sinful part of us, the sinful nature. We do not mean the physical body. I was often confused by that, even though I knew a lot of this stuff intellectually. I studied Augustine quite a bit in college and in my doctoral program. 

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There was a part of me that I'd taken up this insidious idea that, essentially, the body is inferior, the spirit is more important. We really need to focus on the spirit. It was a little part of me that I wouldn't have claimed, it was very subtle, very insidious, but, man, was it wreaking some havoc in my life that I've had to undo. 

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When we talk about, again, the battle between the flesh and the spirit, we do not mean our literal bodies. The flesh is just the part of us that continues to be our imperfect human nature. It continues to be where we carry woundedness, where we continue to sometimes want to go our own way away from following Jesus, away from following God. It's not our physical bodies. 

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Again, Augustine who was a Manichaean, himself, before he converted, spoke out vehemently against this idea that the body is inherently evil and that we should escape it. He argued for the goodness of the physical world, including the human body that God created. Remember that God called you good before sin entered in. God called us good as human bodies. 

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And then there was a third heresy called Docetism, which denied the actual humanity of Jesus. Jesus only appeared to have a physical body, but in reality, he was really spiritual, which again is a heresy. And we may be like, "No, we don't believe that. We know that Jesus had a body, He bled, He died, He did all these things that we did." 

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But it's really important that Jesus had a body. It's really important because it shows us that the body, this envelope of the soul matters. It matters as much as our mind and our emotions matter. It is the container for all that God gave us and created good. We may not like our bodies. We may not like caring for our bodies, and we may bypass our bodies without even realizing it, as I have done, in the name of superior spirituality. But this is not what God wants. 

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Learning to honor your body, learning to live in your body, learning to care for your body is a deeply important part of your spiritual practice. It's not only good for your physical health; it's how we honor the God who made us mind, emotions, body, and spirit. 

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So how do we love our bodies as a form of spiritual practice? I am going to be honest with you, today, I am a newbie at this. There was a time I could have probably waxed on about this from a purely intellectual standpoint, without really understanding it in my own day-to-day practices. And I'm just so aware of how human we all are, that I would rather be honest with you about that than pretend otherwise. 

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I am a newbie at this and it all started, for me, last November when I went off social media. Now I've been off for about five months, and as I mentioned, that was the tip of the iceberg. It launched a whole journey into the depths of paying attention to my body, at the cellular lived experience level. And I'm nowhere near done, yet, I am barely beginning.

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But I am starting to build trust with myself again. To the point where I'm, very gingerly, taking baby steps to see if I can integrate what I have learned about paying attention to my nervous system. Paying attention to what my body, actually, needs in the moment versus the pseudo dopamine hit that I would rely on in the past.

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I am practicing, now, in fumbling, uncomfortable, like riding a bucking bronco, ways, what I've learned these last five months, bringing that into my life. When, to use that ever so helpful acronym — H-A-L-T — whether I'm Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired because that's when we're most vulnerable to doing these things, that our bodies don't actually want or need. 

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What I want to share with you are just some very basic practices that I'm leaning into right now. To ensure that I care for this beautiful, of all beautiful gifts that I do not always think is beautiful, but I am learning to cherish the body that God has given us. 

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Number one, the first thing I do, when I wake up in the morning, is to remind myself I have a body. I have a body. I am not a walking mind. I am not a walking task machine. I am not a walking caretaker of other people. First and foremost, when my feet hit that floor, I have a body. And I say it to myself as a way of saying to God, "God, I have a body this morning. That body needs things from me. And the best way I can honor you right now is to check in with that body; is that body hungry?"

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I cannot tell you how many years of my life I have skipped breakfast. I do not give my body breakfast. I give everybody else in my life breakfast, but I got things to do. I got to get going. I got thoughts to get down. I got work to do. And, then, somewhere around the middle of the morning I'm like, "I'm starving." I didn't feed my body. So this is a radical new practice for me, to hit the ground in the morning and go, "I have a body. What does that body need?" This is a spiritual practice. This changed everything for me. 

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This is not, "I need to go right into my prayer life."

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This is, "God, I am honoring you first thing this morning by checking in with this body you've given me." This is not separate from my spiritual life. "Is my body hurting? Is it sore? Did I get sleep? Does it need food? What food does it need?"

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And, then, a process of "What does my body want to eat first thing in the morning? What is healthy for it?" Not just grabbing a fistful of something and calling that food or nourishment. This takes time, this takes attentiveness, this takes attunement. There are lots of parts of me that do not like this. I want to jump right into the work. I want to jump right into the caretaking of others. It takes space away from, instantly, jumping into caring for other people to say, "I first need to care for my own body." This is hard for us, as women, and it's so basic and it is so not basic. 

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Number two, when, throughout the day, I notice myself reaching for those seemingly innocent go-to's pick-me-ups, pausing. And it's not just about inhibiting an impulse, or a compulsivity to reach for a phone, or reach for a sugary snack, or whatever it is. Whatever the food is, whatever the thing is in that moment that feels good, that we all know isn't actually what we need in that moment. It's more importantly, "What is my body saying right now?"

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A lot of times, in my case, it's, "Oh, my goodness, I have not literally moved my body from my computer for three hours." That is not only not healthy for my circulation, for a body that has, literally, had a clot that turned into a stroke. 

So it's not only that, it's my body wants to move and then I'm learning what does my body want. Because, again, it's not willing control over the body from the mind, which is how I have perceived it in the past. Which is "I should exercise."

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"I should now take a walk around the block."

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It's, "Hey body, what do you want to do?" And my body often wants to have some fun. It's like "I've been sitting here, holding you up for two hours. I want to move around; I want to stretch" Sometimes my body wants to dance. It wants to put on some music and wants to do a little five-minute shakedown; get out the tension, get out the anxiety, get out the frustration. It's been really fun to realize that my body likes little mini-solo dance parties, throughout the day, just shake it out. 

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Rowena talked about this in episode 44 on anger. When she talked about, in her family, when her kids are getting angry, they shake it out and have a little anger dance party, and just get the frustration out. Put on some music. This has been really interesting for me to notice, throughout the day, that so often when I'm unconsciously reaching for something, the real need is that my body needs some attention. It needs to move, it needs to stretch, it needs to work out or metabolize some emotion that I'm having. 

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Other things that my body likes, stretching, taking a walk when it's sunny outside. I'll look out the window and I'll just notice this longing in my body to just go be out in the sun with the dogs. Running around the yard, playing with them, throwing the ball, having some fun out in the sun. My body really likes that. Sometimes it wants a hot shower. Sometimes it wants to go to the gym where it can just bake out, sweat out, some of what it's been feeling.

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Breathing, again, not just because my psychologist's brain has told me, "This is what you're supposed to do. You are supposed to take deep breaths." No, actually, feeling in my body what it feels like to slow down my breathing, and release some of that tension, this takes time. It's like a body time-out. 

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Another thing that's been really fun is to think about kids. What do kids do? If you think about children. Watch your children how they're wriggling, and moving, and dancing, and tussling, and wrestling, and on the ground, and they're throwing their head back in laughter. Or they're pounding their fist, or their hand on the table because they're so upset, they physicalize all that emotion. And, so, reminding myself, "What did I do as a kid?"

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And remembering some of that in my body to let the body get some of that out. Not just for the purpose of, then, I can do my work better, or then I'll be healthy, or then I'll have checked the box of being a healthier person. No, because there's joy in it. There's joy in honoring this long-suffering body that I have, frankly, taken for granted, and have not treated very well throughout my life.

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I thought a lot about David, and I'll be honest when I think about David, I cannot help but think about that beautiful scene of Kevin Bacon, in the original Footloose movie. I went back and watched that scene because it's just so etched in my memory, and I'll link to it in the show notes. Because he talks about all three Scriptures that I often think about, when I think about this movement of the body as a form of worship, as a form of honoring God. 

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And I'm going to close today by reading these Scriptures to you. 2 Samuel 6, "So David went to bring up the Ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David with rejoicing. When those who were carrying the Ark of the Lord had taken six steps, he sacrificed a bull in a fattened calf. Wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the Lord with all his might, while he and all Israel were bringing up the Ark of the Lord with shouts and this sounds of trumpets."

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I've heard that verse my whole life, but only now have I begun to glimpse and taste what it feels like to dance before the Lord. Not always in joy, sometimes in anger, sometimes in sorrow. But that physical action of honoring God with my whole body.

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Ecclesiastes three, again, I've read this one before, but I love it. "There's a time for everything and a season for every activity under the heavens. A time to be born and a time to die. A time to plant and a time to uproot. A time to kill and a time to heal. A time to tear down and a time to build. A time to weep and a time to laugh. A time to mourn and a time to dance."

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And then Psalm 149, "Let Israel rejoice in their maker. Let the people of Zion be glad in their king. Let them praise His name with dancing and make music to Him with timbre and harp." 

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There's so much to this spiritual life that we have. There's so much joy in it. There's so much, yet, to be discovered. I have been doing this work a long time and there are some areas of this journey of healing that I am such a newbie, and it means that life is never boring. It is always an adventure. I'm learning how to dance and how to move my body, as a spiritual practice before the Lord. And I pray for you, on this day, that you too will begin to love this body God has given you as a form of spiritual practice.