Science-backed tools.
Spiritually-based wisdom.

Research shows that many men are struggling and not sure how to get support. So I asked our friends from the Dadville podcast to come on and talk about how to encourage the guys in your life! What a joy to host this insightful and fun duo! Jon McLaughlin and Dave Barnes are best known for their careers as musicians and song writers, but on their off-time, they encourage and inspire us on their popular parenting podcast, Dadville.

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You'll find so much wisdom in this conversation, including:

1. How to find joy in the dream vs. the destination

2. Guys and vulnerability

3. The true goal of parenting

4. Why we all have to face our own blind spots

5. A beautiful picture of letting go of control with our kids

Do you have questions about friendship for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

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Resources

• "Art is never finished, only abandoned." -Leonardo da Vinci
• "Whenever we come together to share strengths it breeds competition; whenever we come together sharing our weaknesses, it breeds community." -Anonymous
• The Timehop app
• ‍Dadville Podcast
• ‍Alison's episode on the Dadville Podcast
• ‍Resources for support

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‍Related Podcast Episodes

• Episode 32: Productivity and the Never Ending To Do List: How to Stop Hustling & Embrace the Joy of Enough
• Episode 28: The Pain of Performing For Others and How to Claw Your Way Out with Toni Collier

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Thanks to our sponsors:

Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.Visit hiyahealth.com/BESTOFYOU and get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults.Go to AquaTru.com and enter code BESTOFYOU at checkout to get 20% OFF any AquaTru purifier! AquaTru comes with a 30-day Money-Back Guarantee so if you don't like it just send it back for a refund, minus shipping.

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Music by Andy Luiten/Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

© 2024 Alison Cook. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Please do not copy or share the contents of this webpage without permission from the author. While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.‍

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Transcript:

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ALISON: I really loved the conversation that we had when I was on your podcast. The thing that I'm most interested in, and I think my audience will be really interested in, is this friendship dynamic–how you guys are so open about how you're growing as men through being dads.

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Also, this way that you've connected to each other. There's so much research right now that shows that men struggle in making friendships. They don't know how to do it. We're seeing this with young boys too. How do we help men connect in ways where it makes sense to you? That’s intuitive. 

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And I love it that you guys are really doing it. You're so open and transparent about what's been hard about even being in therapy from time to time. And then you have this clear connection to each other.

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So I want to get there, but I would love personally to hear a little bit more about your background as musicians. Tell me a little bit about your journey.

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DAVE: Take it away, Jon.

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JON: Take it away, Dave.

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DAVE: See, that's how humble we are. We're constantly trying to make way for each other. So Jon's story is, which he'll tell you, he grew up basically playing piano since his fingers could move, which is one of the reasons he's so good at piano. But I got to do it kind of later.

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I played drums growing up, but when I went to college at Middle Tennessee State University here, I kind of got into songwriting and singing and really loved that. And it was a totally out of nowhere God thing. I mean, there's no way to explain what I do for a living other than God's very dynamic and catastrophically wonderful intervention in my life to change the inertia of my direction, where I was going. 

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Not in any dramatic way. I mean music, singing, and songwriting was not anywhere on my radar at all. And so when I was there, I started playing and really enjoyed it and singing and stuff. And then moved here and pretty much started immediately. I worked for another producer for a while and kind of did a record with him. And then, since then I've done it full time. And so that's 20, whatever it is, 22 years now. 

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Nashville is the place to do that if you're going to do it because it's got the ecosystem and, you can, you can do it here because there's a way to do it. And so I think that's some of why I continue to keep getting to do it.

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But, and, I think the longer you do it, you sort of find other things to supplant a little bit of it, like I write songs for other people now too. And we have the podcast. There's just, it's like doing music in 2023 is a wildly different thing than doing it in 1985.

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JON: It means that you don't do music full time.

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DAVE: Yeah. Well, I should say, and Jon can speak to this too, but, if you really do want to have a family, if you want to be home and sort of have any kind of home life, you really do have to sort of figure out other things to do to sort of help that so you're not gone all the time.

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But, I love it. I mean, I wouldn't do anything else. Ever, ever, ever. It's the best.

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JON: Yeah, like Dave said, which I do want to point out that Dave's kind words are very kind, but it's also a way of him saying like, “Oh, you guys have been doing this your whole life? Grammy nomination? Oh,I started doing this.”

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ALISON: Right. You got a head start.

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JON: But yeah, I grew up in a really musical family in Indiana. And the family is all still back in Indiana. I'm the only one down here in Nashville. And Dave is actually a huge part of me and my family being down here. We moved down here about nine years ago, but I grew up in Indiana playing classical piano from the, I mean, I don't have any memories of not having piano lessons, 

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DAVE: That's amazing.

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JON: And extremely grateful for it because I have no other skills, and so I don't know what else I would do. I'm glad that podcasting is a thing, because then it's like, well, I guess I could do that. As long as Dave's with me, I think I could do a podcast.

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DAVE: We listen to people talk well, is what that means.

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JON: That is exactly what we do. We have smart people like you on, and you help us get from week to week. So yeah, I moved down here with my family to kind of, dabble in the “writing for other people” thing as well. 

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Once my oldest daughter came along, up until that point, I had only written and toured for myself. And I had this panic moment when Luca was born, I was like, I can never leave the house again. I'm never, well, I can't leave now. Like Amy, my wife was always on the road for seven years. She came out on the road with my band. So it was a huge shift. And Dave was starting to write for other people around that time and having massive success.

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And so I moved down here and kind of dabbled in that it did not work out for me to write for other people. I know nothing about country music at all. And so I still tour and write for myself and I do this podcast with my neighbor Dave.

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ALISON: I hear from both of you that you've had to make some hard decisions along the way. There's these dreams–big dreams, big talent and some success. Tell me a little bit about how you've arrived at some of those, the maturity, I guess, that is required to both hold on to dreams and steward talents that God has given you. 

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And also make these hard decisions around your family and being a dad and being a good friend to each other. How does that, how does that play out for you? What are some of the milestones where you saw some of those decisions staring at you in the face and had some come to Jesus moments?

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JON: Yeah, I mean, as you're talking what comes to my mind, and what comes to my mind often especially living in Nashville and doing what we do, is you have to make–I don't know how to say it exactly–but you have to decide to enjoy the life that God has given you. Because there are a thousand different ways to see your life as a failure, and sometimes it feels like there's one little tightrope of a way that you can enjoy it.

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And it's there, but you have to decide to enjoy it. I mean, not to throw labels under the bus, but there is a way that they can, and artists as well, can turn successes into failures, where you do something, it hits, you're on the chart, and you were like, oh, we weren't even, we were just, the goal was here, and we've exceeded that, well now, let's move the goal to here, because all these people are. We're in the top 20 now, and then, well, let's get to the next goal. 

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I mean, Dave has had many number ones. He had this massive song with this artist that Dave, you posted the other day, which I thought was a great post because, and he wrote this really well written caption underneath it that was celebrating the song that had this massive success. 

And it got to number two. That is an insanely massive success.

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There's a way that the labels and there's a mindset you can have where you can be like, yeah, we thought it was going to be number one, and we didn't quite get there. And you're like, wait a minute, this is a huge success story here that we should be celebrating.

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And it's easy. Again, in this town with all this activity, with all this creativity and talent, it's really easy to take that mindset of like, well, I've got this, but it is nowhere near that or that or that. So in order to survive, you kind of have to choose to own the enjoyment of your own life and your own talent.

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DAVE: Yeah, it's, it's true. That's well-said Jon. And thanks for saying that. I think music is to me (Jon has heard me say this 5,000 times), but music to me—

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JON: Change it up. Change the wording up.

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DAVE: Okay. Music is a lot like roller skating and I've never gone here, but let's see what–oh, you've heard that one.

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I think it's a lot like professional sports in that it really is kind of a young man's game/young woman's game. And so, it runs on dream juice, it's like, it's all about what the next thing is and where you're taking it and where it's going. It's not so much about maintenance, it's about what the next thing is and what gets hard.

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And you asked such a good question, Alison. It's like, what gets hard as you get older and your priorities change is that it really doesn't help your business the minute you have kids and you get married. You have kids and you have this home life. 

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Your dreams start to divert, and all of a sudden this engine that has run on this juice suddenly, your family is the new engine that runs on that juice. And so you're looking at this thing at the side, kind of going like, “Man, what are we gonna put in that now”? 

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And so it's really tricky. It's a weird occupation that way because it's like, I laugh with a lot of my friends because novelty is king in our industry. And so you spike fast, you come out and you catch, and all of a sudden you shoot, you're at the top of that chart and then you're kind of like somewhat descending the rest of your career. And you'll stay and you'll plateau. But like, I laugh with my friends because we'll go get coffee, and they got the CFO job, CEO job…

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ALISON: They climb.

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DAVE: …they're climbing, and I'm kind of waving on the way down a little bit. Thankfully, it doesn't mean you can't have a career, it doesn't mean that you can't be successful and still enjoy it, because Jon and I both do. I mean, I've probably never enjoyed it more, which is great.

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I don't feel like we've ever been better at it, if you think about the 10,000 hours principle, but at the same time, it's a tricky job because you kind of realize a lot of your friends are now hitting their peak and you kind of do that in your twenties when you're us, because that's when it is the most valuable, it's the most interesting, it's the newest, you got to go see him live. He's awesome. 

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And then, the 10th time you've seen somebody live, it's still great, but some of that magic has changed into nostalgia, which is totally fine, but you really have to have maturity about it to your point, Alison.

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It's like you kind of have to know how to, and like Jon is saying, to think about it, to not walk off stage and go, “Man, when I played here three times ago, there were three times more people”, but instead go, “Man, there's still people coming to my shows that really enjoy it, and I still can do this for a living, you know”?

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ALISON: It takes some soul work. You guys have made choices and we all have to do this work. Whatever your job is, somebody's always got a bigger boat, whatever the thing is in your life. 

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But for you guys, you didn't have to make the choices you made, you've made decisions to keep your souls intact in some sort of way, shape or form that you didn't have to make, and I guess I'm curious, what do you attribute that to?

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I love your image of the tightrope. To kind of stay on it, continue to love what you do, but not fall off either side–the side of giving up everything, losing your soul, but to stay on top, killing yourselves and all your relationships, and I think the other side of that tight rope might be giving up all together on these beautiful talents.

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JON: Yeah, I mean, I think that some of the things that have kept me going are, like Dave, I absolutely love creating music and performing music. I love it. I would do it. I mean when people ask like, what would you do if money were no object? You have a billion dollars in the bank.

What would you do? I don't know. I would get more massages, but I don't think anything In my life would change, you know what I mean? I would like to get the house painted. I don't know. 

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So like, that is huge. I mean there is what I'm doing, and what Dave and I are doing, there is like a soul and our souls are involved, so it's easier to not be quite so drawn to the results of something.

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And I'm not saying that I'm above that. I have a new song coming out here soon. I'm like, I want it to do well. I want it to get on some playlists. I want people to hear it. So that's still there, but there is a very real element of “the work is already done”. I created this song that could do nothing.

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I could even not release it and I still have a huge box checked internally of like, I created this thing. There's this beautiful relationship with the art itself. Not to sound cheesy there. 

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ALISON: I love that. Because the irony of what you guys are saying is I think it could be Daniel Day Lewis who will still have that feeling of “it could be better”. That tension that you're describing is probably endemic in any creativity or work. 

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So the illusion is, if I got to that number one or if I got to that, whatever, I'll finally feel good, but the reality is you get there and there's something else.

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And so what you're saying is so beautiful–that the work is constantly remembering: “I created this beautiful piece of art.”

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DAVE: That's it.

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JON: Well, and that's another thing that is huge. I think it is a huge gift that I have seen time and time and time again–that sort of myth of like, you get to the top of the mountain and you've made it and there is no “made it”.

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There's nothing up there. You can get to number one but there's always again there's always some way that you can spin it. If you're doing it for the wrong reasons, there's some way that it won't give you what you are looking for. 

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If you're needing success in your job to give you something, it's not going to give it to you.

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DAVE: It's ladders that lead to more ladders.

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ALISON: It's so true. Yeah, and I think, again, it's such a subtle nuanced thing where there's ambition, there's drive, there's talent that are not bad things and you want to do well, of course.

I think sometimes in the Christian community especially, it can be too easy to have sort of a pseudo-humility or to kind of repress that all together. I see this in women. I'm sure it's there for men. You guys tell me. You want to do well, but you don't want to find your identity in it, because that is a house of cards that is never going to last. And I kind of hear that ongoing work for both of you.

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DAVE: Well, I think the thing you have to realize at some point, all of us, and it doesn't matter, industry or gender, we are co-creators. Like, we are the church, we are the bride to Jesus, and that means that God initiates relationship with us. He initiates. So much of our relationship, it's two ways, it's like God being with us and us being with God.

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And I think when we think about creation and jobs especially, and really anything, we have to get to this place. And it's such a struggle for me where it's like we have to let go. We have to create and then stop. We have to work and then stop. We have to, because one of the parts of faith that's so paramount is realizing that I have done what I feel called to do and I can't do anything more than that. And it is God's from now on. 

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From this point, we push the boat out and we wave and we go back to our family. And I think it's really hard when we attach too much identity to what we create. We forget that there's a faith element at play that we do the best we can with our part of that creation, but it ends. It's a finite thing. 

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I quoted this last week, I should look this up, but one of the famous painters said, “No great art is finished. It's abandoned”. And I think that's true with a lot of kinds of work.

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We all kind of feel like, man, if you could give me 10 more minutes, I can get these numbers right. Or whatever, I don't think it's specific to creation or creative careers. But, I think it's easier to understand where you feel like, God, let me fix that part right there, the bridge, we could get that a little more…and at some point it's like, it doesn't matter.

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You really have to trust that I've done my best, I'm abandoning. It's probably a better metaphor, honestly. It's like, I'm abandoning this work to God so he can finish it and fulfill it. And some of that stuff never gets finished and you get really sad. You realize like, man, that didn't achieve what I wanted it to.

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And then some does. But I mean, I think the eternal perspective, if you can have that perspective and lay over our current experiences, it's game changing because you reprioritize everything. You realize that kids are the real work. Our family's the real work. Our church is the real work. Our relationships are the real work. The work is wonderful. 

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Like our jobs are wonderful, but they're going to burn. Like it's all going to burn. It's not going to heaven with us. Now what God can use it for in our lives to shape us and mold us to become better people is very valuable.

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And some of it has really profound work in the world. I mean, I believe Jon, our music, and your books. These things do matter. They have eternal weight, but not near what we think they do. 

And I think the sadness I see, and one of the things that I think compels me so much with Dadville is to sit with other men and hear them going, “I think that too. I love my work. I want to do well, but gosh, the real work for me is with my kids”.

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Jon and I laugh all the time. One of our great qualifiers as dads is like, we want our kids to want to come home when they're 25 and hang out with us for a weekend. Like that's a win. Like we have done it. And to me, if you're not careful, you're going to have a lot of awards on your wall and kids who don't want to come home. 

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Is that really what you want? So I think when you lay the eternal perspective on top of that, and you go backwards to forwards, you realize like, oh man, to get there, I need to make some different decisions.

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Because that means probably less awards on my wall, but kids who are like, man, we're coming home next week, dad. And you're like, “Yes!”. And so they can end up staying in that room that was going to have the awards anyway. So it all works out.

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ALISON: I love that. Tell me a little bit about parenting. Tell me about, first of all, the ages of your kids roughly.

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JON: So Dave and I, our kids are exactly stair stepped. Dave has three and I have two in the middle. Mine are 10 and almost eight. And Dave, yours are 11, seven and…

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DAVE: They're 11, nine, and six about to be seven

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ALISON: How has becoming a parent, becoming a dad, brought out some of your own growth and your own healing? ‘Cause that's a pretty deep thing, what you said, like I realized, “here's what I actually want. I've now got to reverse engineer my life to get there”. So how did that bring up stuff inside of you then to ensure that happens?

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DAVE: Can we end here and just, it's been a great podcast. I've really enjoyed it. I've really, really enjoyed it.

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JON: You know, one of the first episodes we did was with this guy named Steven James and he was our first expert that we had on the podcast and I have quoted that episode so many times. I mean, it was years ago and it was such a pivotal moment for me as a parent.

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Because there was this one scenario that I was talking about, I've said it a million times, but where I was worried about Luca, my oldest, it was like she was going to school for the first time, kindergarten starting, the parents are having a meeting, the kids are all outside playing, and I could not focus on anything that was happening in the meeting. I was looking out the window, looking at things like, is she playing with other kids, is anybody being mean to her, is she being left out.

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And she was kind of playing by herself the whole time and I'm like, I really want her to make a friend. Like these kids are playing together. Why isn't Luca over there? You know? And he's like, dude, that, this is 1000% your problem. Luca is fine. She was playing with a leaf. She was fine.

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So that was kind of my first lesson in that. I mean, it was one of those moments where like, he sort of pointed this one thing out to me and it's like when you see an ant on the ground and then all of a sudden you see like another ant and then a thousand ants it was like, oh I can see how I'm doing this ten times a day with the things that I'm worried about it really sort of like trimmed away a lot of what I thought were my legitimate concerns with my daughters and really made me see like, okay, some of these are actually them and let's keep those all these other ones, you really need to work on those for yourself. 

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And it made me realize how important it is to operate, and this goes for anything, but as a parent, as a husband, as a friend, as a coworker, I mean, how important it is to, as much as we can, operate out of security and health. 

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Start there. As a parent, how much of my behavior during the day, like at the end of the day when I lay my head on the pillow, how much of the way I handled any given situations was because of me and what I was going through and the baggage in my head and what I was bringing into the room, versus what the situation actually called for. It's made me, it's kind of forced me to realize those elements that are at play. 

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DAVE: Which I'd been telling him for years!

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JON: Years, years in song, and I never listened.

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DAVE: Yeah, I mean, I'll say two things quickly. I think one, it's given me a lot of grace for my parents. One of the things that I think is really easy as you grow up and mature is to get to that age where you suddenly see that your parents didn't do everything right. 

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And for some people that's 15. For me it was kind of like late, late teens into twenties. And it's easy to kind of go scorched earth with that, kind of come home and be like, let me tell you everything you didn't do right.

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And boy, when you get engaged and married, that quadruples because you have somebody else going, “Hey, so fun fact about your mom or your dad…”. But I think when you have kids, you suddenly realize, “Oh man, this is hard. This is really hard”. 

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There's a guide in that we have the Bible, there's a guide in great books, but there's not a guide guide. There's no definitive answer to every problem you're gonna have. And I think for me, that was a huge moment to realize like, man, everybody's kind of doing the best they can, whatever that looks like. And that's going to change according to what they were given as kids and their parents. But that was helpful.

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And then I think the other thing, kind of what Jon and I talk a lot about, it's like this idea that you can only take your kids as far as you've gone yourself spiritually and emotionally. And so it's compelling to continue to do your own work so that you can keep trying to lead your kids that way, as opposed to truncating that. 

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And then when they're 25, past your maturity, and they come home and go like, man, dad's like a 10 year old when he gets mad, or he can't talk about this one thing cause he just? I think we've seen on Dadville so much where really wise people say like, “Hey, I gotta keep keep doing my work.”

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JON: Mm hmm.

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ALISON: Yeah. We talked a little bit about when I came onto your podcast, and you guys have said it so well, the goal of parenting isn't perfection. It's what you're saying. It's to keep that connection ongoing and that's where the rubber hits the road is really when your kids are adults.

Do they want to still come to you? Is there a safe place for them to come to you and say, “Actually when you did that, that wasn't great”?

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And you can take that because that's what keeps connection alive. That's what keeps connection alive. It's not that your goal is that your kids won't ever have a problem with you or ever come to you and say, hey. It's that you will be safe enough so that when they do, you've done enough work and all humility to say, you know what, you might have a point there.

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JON: Right.

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DAVE: And so we say it again, I almost wish people would hit the 15 seconds back and hear what you said twice, Alison, because what kind of deluded people do we think we are, that we are going to parent in a way that our kids at 30 sit down with us at Outback Steakhouse over at Bloomin Inn and go, “You know what guys? You stuck it. You stuck the landing. I have come out unscathed. I have only amazing things”.

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And I think we all laugh at that, but I think if we're really, really honest, I can dysfunctionally operate in a way like I'm trying to have the perfect card here. Jon does such a good job talking about this, but this idea that it’s not what we're shooting for. We're really trying to keep communication lines open and to be real and authentic and the rupture and repair idea that for what we do to rupture, we come back to repair.

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If I'm not careful, I'm in my sinful fallen brain going, man, I want to ace this, I'll take an A-”. it's a terrible way to go about life because it assumes way too much control. And the sense that there is such a thing as sort of doing it right.

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JON: Right. Yeah, and I get terrified when I'm in this headspace. I have to let go of the myth that I'm gonna nail this, that I'm gonna hit some sort of parenting bullseye. It doesn't exist. But, when that day comes and they do come back home and they sit down with Amy and I and they're like, “Okay, here are some of the things that were hard”, I want to know what they are. I want to be one step ahead. Because they're going to come in and they're going to say the thing that I'm going to be like, “No, no, I nailed that”! 

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DAVE: I was at every single game, ask your mom!

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ALISON: I love that.

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DAVE: I say this every now and then, especially when you meet your spouse, that there's this analogy I always use. There's a tableau in your house that you've seen a hundred times walking out the door.

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You know that tableau. It's the Barnes tableau. Then you bring your spouse and they look up at it and they're like, “Is that a woman eating that bear?” And you're like, “That's the woman that eats a bear. That's Deborah”. And they're like, “That's disturbing”.

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You're like, “When I say it out loud, that is really disturbing”. And then you sort of work your way through this tableau and you have this part and it's like, that's some weird family stuff. And you're like, now that you are here, it does feel weird. 

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And to Jon's point, I don't want to be like, “Honey, that's the bear eating woman. Why are you mad about this”? But I can go, “We do have a bear-eating woman on our table”. We need to be okay with that.

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ALISON: Yeah. It's like the shame that comes from being caught at something we didn't have a chance to pre-condition ourselves to acclimate to. It's vulnerable.

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DAVE: That is it. So then the question is how do you not get surprised in the community? It's people that can be in your life that look at you and go, “Hey Dave, like you have this quirk and I love you and we love you and we're committed to this relationship, but you kind of do this when this happens”. And you're like, “Oh shoot”. And they're like, “It's okay, we're here”. 

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But when you've had that conversation 15 years before your daughter sits down and has that conversation with you, you're able to go like, “You're right, honey. Like that's actually one of my blind spots. And I know that because I'm in a group of people that love me enough to go like, Hey, you kind of have this blind spot”.

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‘Cause if you don't have that community, that is going to be a really hard conversation, a really hard conversation. And I think if you look at the history of mankind, especially America over the last 75 years, you think about the greatest generation and the generations that follow, they're coming back from World War I and II and rightfully so, they want to be left alone with all the trauma that's happened.

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But what that hands down generation to generation is this mentality of “Hey, we are individuals. We take care of ourselves. That's none of your business”. We have seen, and our parents' generation has seen when you try to sit and have this conversation with your parents, it does not go well. Because “Who are you to tell me how I failed? Do you know who failed me? My dad, who left when I was five”. 

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And all that is fair, but I think it doesn't invite this communal learning. That is absolutely part of our faith. I mean, there's nothing to me that's as compelling about Christianity as the idea that we are a body. And that God is always pushing us toward each other. Always, always, always. 

Without it, you have these conversations, again, like Jon said, where they come home at 30 and they go, “Dad, you get really, you get really mean when this happens”. And you want to go, “No, no”. 

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But if you've had someone sit with you 15 years before and go, “Hey bro, you get really mean with this” you're like, oh shoot. So it becomes a common vernacular and you know, and again, that's your work. That's the work. 

‍

You're sort of spelunking the end of yourself to it and hopefully in a healthy way to kind of go like, oh, I may have some blind spots after all.

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ALISON: It's a muscle you have to exercise. And if you've never exercised that muscle to be able to see your own blind spots, to be able to see what's hard about yourself, shame hardens you. I have a friend who says “shame doesn't age well”. 

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And so because of all that shame. If you've never had a little bit of exposure to the little bit of, “oh, ouch, that hurts that you're seeing my family in this way”, or “you're seeing this side of me”, but “oh, I can survive it”.

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And actually, it draws us closer. And actually, you still love me. If you haven't been working on that incrementally, it builds and builds and builds to the point where you become that older person that can't take any real feedback. That can't be seen. 

‍

Part of why I wanted to have you guys on is what you're doing on your podcast–creating a space for dads, for men, to have these conversations as only guys can, with a lot of humor. And it's fun, but there's a lot of depth in it–you bring so much of the depth and the fun to it.

I know a lot of my listeners are going, “I don't know how to get my husband to engage in community in the way you guys are talking about, where he's open to some of these hard conversations, where he's doing this work of seeing some of his own stuff”. And so talk to me a little bit about that.

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How do we encourage men to do exactly what you're describing, which is be in community, be talking about what's hard, be talking about what's scary about being a dad. This is really vulnerable stuff. How do we encourage that?

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DAVE: Well, I was looking at your questions, and I loved this one because I think it's a wonderful question, but I actually thought about this for a while and I think that the two things that I thought about and you're right, I don't know that there's a definitive answer, but the two things I found myself thinking about is one, I think there has to be an agreement that everyone is struggling with something. There's no such place where every man is good. Like, I'm good. I'm good. It's like that in the Christian space, especially.

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That is antithetical. Like that's not a reality. Like God didn't create perfect guys who roam the earth for 80 years and then die. So it's some degree we, as men, are all struggling with really a myriad of things, but I would say especially a few things, whatever they are.

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So I think there has to be an understanding, moms, if you're thinking about your husband, it's in there, it is in there. If we believe anything about humans, it's in there. And then it's about, my favorite quote, Jon has heard me say this quote many times, but I think it's especially potent in this conversation, which is, I heard someone say, “Anytime we come together sharing our strengths, it breeds competition. Anytime we come together sharing our weaknesses, it breeds community”. 

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And so the thing that I always encourage my friends who are struggling in this space is like, start being really honest. And that sounds crazy. Cause guys like, no, no, no. But I think two things, I think that, and this, I think Alison, you may have said this, but men do a better job looking in the same direction than they do at each other.

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So that's a fishing trip, a drive, a trip together, watching sports. That usually helps a little bit cause it's not quite as intense as really seeing somebody and being like, I'm really struggling with lust. And they're like, do you mean with me or why are you staring at me like that? 

So I think, one, try to think of ways that we can be together as men that don't maybe feel quite as imposing. 

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But two, I did this when I heard that quote. It changed my life because I realized that I had these friends who I had a really hard time connecting with. I love them dearly, but like we couldn't and so literally it became sort of like a joke like I would sit and be vulnerable and it would it nine times out of 10 elicit amazing conversations and relationships that were so helpful to me because I would go, “Hey, can I, can I just, I'm having a really hard time with this right now and I don't know what to do”.

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And nine times out of 10, they go, “Dude, do you know how hard that is for me”? And all of a sudden you're like, here we go. We're in. Let's go. Yeah. Oh yeah. And it would take the bravery of going like, Hey, and it doesn't mean you have to be like, like the most bear you've ever been, but I think sometimes go like, “Hey, my kids…” And not like they're hard or I don't like, they're being punks, but say like, like let's use emotion words and say “they're, they really make me sad sometimes”. Like, or “I'm really struggling with feeling like I'm not being a good dad”. It is rare that I've ever had that conversation. So I'd be like, man, that sucks.

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And you're like, okay, that was good. High five. And we're out of here. But you usually find somebody goes, “Dude, me too. Like last week”. And then you're off, you're off to the races. And so for me, it's become a test pattern that I love doing, which is like, in those moments of friendships where I'm like, why is this not working? It's probably because nobody's being vulnerable. 

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It's probably because we're not being honest because the minute we are, it creates this crazy bond, and it gets easier the more you do it. Because everybody is, again, it goes back to point one, like some everybody's struggling with something.

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You're not gonna find somebody who's like, I don't have problems, and if you do then they're probably not gonna be a great friend anyway. I wouldn't advise hanging out with whoever that is. But I've found that for me that has been wildly helpful for me and my friendships.

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JON: Yeah, I don't know that I have anything to add to that. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. I mean, it, it, it really is, I guess, about who's gonna take the first step. Who's gonna, in a group of guys, I mean, we always laugh about this, Amy and I, Dave and I, you can have a group of guys do a guy's night and the night after the girls do a girl's night and like I'll come home from a guy's night and Amy will be like, Oh, was Matt there? Yeah, he was there. Oh my gosh. How's his mom doing? She's in the hospital. I'm like, Oh, I actually didn't know that. You didn't talk about that? You hung out for four hours? What'd you guys talk about? We were joking the whole time, which is great, which is great. 

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But I do a thousand percent agree with Dave in that I've never been in a situation where or somebody in the room makes some one little baby step toward out of like jokey land toward vulnerability and is left hanging. It doesn't happen. And I think that like Dave said, the more you do it, the easier it is, and the longer it's been since you've done it, the bigger that lie of “you're the only one, they don't want to talk about how they yell at their kids because they don't yell at their kids. You yell at your kids, no one else does'' grow.

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You said you're not sure if there's an answer to this question. I don't know that there's an easy answer to the question other than: 

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Somebody's got to take that little baby step toward vulnerability and believe that they're not going to be left hanging because like Dave said, everybody has something that they want to talk to somebody about and it's not as socially acceptable for a myriad of reasons in our society for men to do that. And I think the older you get, the harder it is.

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ALISON: And how do your wives encourage you toward male friendships? 

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DAVE: I'm not saying that we do this well cause I think this takes a lot of time and wisdom, but the older I get, the more I realize there are times I look at it and you go, “I don't know that I can help you with this. I think this is better with your girlfriends”.

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And I think the same for her to look at me and go like “This sounds like stuff I'm a little under qualified to answer” or “It's not appropriate for me to be a part of”. And I don't even mean lust, I mean because I can't relate to you. I'm not gonna be able to look at you and go like I know that life.

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Or you can give terrible advice because you go “Well then stop doing it” because it's easy for you not to do it as a man, or a woman.

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And so I think a lot of wisdom comes from knowing what are the things that are not for me to navigate with you. Because I can't relate to it, and there'll be a woman that, for my wife, that she could sit down, and that woman goes, I know exactly what you're saying, where I could be like, let me think about that.

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I mean, I could get that. I don't really feel that way. So I think some of it is knowing hey, when is it not my turn to do that,

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ALISON: It's, it's so interesting. The whole thread through all this, we talked about art, creativity, work. We talked about being a dad. We talked about friendship, this whole friendship thing. The whole theme is really about letting go of control. And I think of that metaphor where you were saying you push the boat out, you do your best and you push the boat out with your art.

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But in a way, Jon, when you were talking about your little girl, being at school in a way, you did your best, you equipped her and then you had to kind of let her go that day and not micromanage, her, and obsess over is she making friends, you kind of let it go and trust her to God.

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There's this constant kind of, it reminds me of these attachments that we talk about where. healthy attachment isn't grabbing on. It's this back and forth. It's this flow of pouring in and then letting go. And it's really the same with our spouses. If we see our husbands hurting, and I hear this a lot as a woman. We see them feeling lonely or we want to go get them their friends.

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You might instead say, “I wonder if there's some guys that you might want to check in about that”, and then you gotta let it go. They might not. You can't orchestrate it. There's sort of this theme of you say what you can, you might name something even, even when you guys are talking about with a group of guys, you're like, well, I can try to be vulnerable here, and then I let it go. And typically guys take the bait. Sometimes they don't,

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DAVE: Well, and you know what's hard? I think that you're saying too, and this is, I don't know that there's harder work, personally, maybe in life and relationships than marriages where you're trying to respect, where you're, one, trying not to be too codependent, because I think we are all that way, even in the sneakiest levels, because it feels great when your spouse comes to you and goes, hey, I need help, and you're like, “You've come to the right person”!

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But to have enough wherewithal and wisdom and maturity to go, I want to answer this so badly because it would make me feel so good and it'd make me feel good with you looking at me that way. It's, “I don't know that I can help you here”. 

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The healthiest marriages I know have so much of that, that they really are two people that are married to each other. They're not one person. They are in some ways, but that is a hard discipline to have. But the thing that comes from it, and here's a full circle to your point. When I say, “I don't know if I can help you”, it actually pushes my spouse back into community. And I think there's nothing more dangerous to me than seeing older couples who are their best friends and they have drank the Kool Aid until they're both green.

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And you're like, you guys have lost the plot because you're mirrors. You're echo chambers of each other, agreeing with each other into oblivion to where you're irrelevant as people anymore because you sort of agree with each other and live in your little mountain and you're not coming back down to earth with the rest of us.

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And then the healthiest couples are the ones that are absolutely the opposite. They're in community. They're going, “Hey, my husband has these guys that he talks to that stuff about. And some of it I don't even know about. And some of it we talk about together. And then I have my women”, and I think that is really counterintuitive in some ways.

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You think, well, we're married. We're the safe place for each other. And yes, you are. But again, this is a communal experience. Like this is meant to be shared. And some of the most dysfunction I've had to deal with in my marriage is believing that thing that I think the church really has to be careful with, that “you are one in front of the Lord”.

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And so husbands, you stand before your wives and you answer for them. And some of that is true, some of it is true, but you have a relationship. Your husband has a relationship with God and with people. And I think we have to hold that space carefully because it can really compound that struggle already.

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Because he doesn't need friends when he's got you. Like he's gonna tell you everything and then you listen and he's like I'm good. We're instead of having the discipline to be like, “It's gonna be hard, but I don't know honey, why don't you talk to Fred about that?”

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“Oh, okay. Well, usually you want to talk about it.”

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“Well, maybe I shouldn't do it anymore”. 

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It's hard to do. God bless Fred.

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ALISON: Yeah. The image that I use is the overlapping circles of the Venn diagram. We don't become one as one unit. We have a steadfast overlapping portion of our two circles that is the bedrock, but we also each have circles off of that and some of them don't overlap, and so I really appreciate what you're saying there.

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You know, marriage is... it's autonomy and connection. But that's this whole tension of holding things loosely where you can name some things and you know sometimes our partners don't do the things that we want them to do, but that doesn't mean we can't name a couple things and then be really healthy in our own circles.

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It does take a community. Again, for our listeners. I would encourage you to check out the Dadville podcast and encourage your husbands and your significant others and the guys in your life as well.

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I think a lot of folks would benefit from it, but especially the guys because you are having these kinds of conversations in a way that's so relatable as guys. And so I appreciate that you're doing that. And I hope you'll keep having these conversations as a place for men, for dads.

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To hear guys talking about exactly what you guys were talking about. “Oh yeah, me too. Cause I'm hearing that on a podcast now. It's one level removed from vulnerability”. And I think it's. So great that you're doing that.

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JON: We have a ton of fun on the podcast and thank you for bringing our credibility up by coming on the podcast. Hopefully there are guys all around hearing stuff that probably their wives have said 10 times. But they hear it someplace else and then they're like–

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DAVE: They hear in a deeper octave. They're like, actually that resonates with me.

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ALISON: So tell me a little bit about what went into, what was your decision to start it out of your friendship? I think it's really neat.

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JON: Well, so, as I said before, Dave is my neighbor. Literally, we could share Wi-Fi. And sometimes we do. We've known each other for 20 plus years. And our kids play together all the time. 

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We're often sitting in our backyards on our porch, like talking about our kids and talking about our lives and our kids are our lives right now, to a great extent. And so one day Dave was like, “Hey, would you want to do a podcast called Dadville?” And I was like, “Yeah”. And that was it.

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DAVE: Yeah. It's what you said, Alison. Ultimately some of the subterfuge afoot is that we're trying to create a venue for dads to talk about what they actually really love to talk about that they don't always get the venue to do. And that's their kids and their family.

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I don't know many dads that if you really cue them up to talk about their kids they that they’re like “I'm good”. I think and I'm not gonna go on like a society bender about why the world doesn't do that, but it's not great at doing that.

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There's not a lot of great venues. Guys at business meetings aren't going, “Can we pause? How's Carla doing”? That's not happening and so it's fun to kind of feel like hey, this is a place we can do that. Let's talk about that. What are you scared of? What are you excited about? What, what are you learning? What do you want to do better. 

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We've been so encouraged because people really enjoy it. And I think people enjoy hearing that because there is a communal sense to it.

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ALISON: I love that you've created that space where it's normalizing guys talking about what matters. In closing, I want to ask you two questions. You guys asked the question of me.

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JON: What do you want your kids to say at your funeral? 

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ALISON: I would like to hear your guys' answers to that.

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JON: It's tough and at this moment I sympathize with all the guests.

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DAVE: Yeah, all of a sudden I'm like, why do we make people do this?

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JON: No, it's hard because obviously there's so much. It's overwhelming whenever you distill it all down to a moment like that. There's too much in there. How do I sum it up?

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This gets to what we talked about a little bit before. If I heard them say, “We could tell him anything. He would always listen. And we knew that he loved us unconditionally”. That would be, I would be elated. 

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What more could you want if we had that relationship and they knew that they could always tell me anything, knowing that because part of the frustration of becoming a parent and one of the best parts about becoming a parent for me was this feeling and it has affected my faith.

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It has affected my relationship with my parents. It's this feeling of like it's a different love than you've ever felt before. It is this Unconditional love that exists in no other relationship. It's in a different category, you know and part of the frustration day to day when I'm talking to my kids sometimes is I'm like, ah, there's no way I can really get across to you how much I love you.

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You can't get it across. And hopefully one day if they have kids, then they'll, they'll feel it. And then it will inform their relationship with me and with God. This unconditional love. And so if at the end of my life they say in some sense, “We knew that and we knew that we could always go to him”, that would be amazing.

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ALISON: That's beautiful.

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DAVE: I think mine would be that they could always go to Jon. “Dad's gone, but gosh, we can still go to Jon.”

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JON: Jon's still here

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DAVE: kidding, no, I think two things. There's a million answers, but I think the main two that I think of right now, are one that “I will miss him”, because I think it'd be powerful to think that you ended well, that it wasn't sort of like we were kind of waiting for this a little bit. And “We love him, but like, boy, it got weird there at the end”. 

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But I feel like I see that a lot with parents where it's like, as they get older, it gets trickier. I pray that I can end that well, that they still feel that they do miss me. 

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And then I think exactly what Jon said–I think some version of them knew that I loved them, which is really simple. But it's true, that they'd say we never doubted that.

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ALISON: what would you want that younger you to know about being a dad that you know now?

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DAVE: Jon?

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JON: I think whenever we have guests on Dadville who are further down the road, if their kids are older or they're out of the house or whatever, I do feel like Dave and I we laugh about this, but we always have a string of questions that have the theme us asking them to tell us everything's gonna be okay. Please tell us it's all gonna be okay. And I feel like that would be what I would want to say, because that's what I wanted to hear.

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And that's what I still want to hear. But I would want to say to my younger self, “I know it's hard. relax and enjoy it. And because it's all going to be okay”.

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ALISON: I love that. That's great.

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JON: And also Dave's going to want you to do a podcast in a couple years. And try to get 75 25 if you can

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DAVE: Also, bet on the Patriots. Every Super Bowl they're in, bet on them.

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JON: And then, “Go Buccaneers”!

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DAVE: I agree, except for that one. My biggest struggle, and I actually feel like I've done this pretty well, but I can't say it enough to myself, it's to be present. 

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I have this app called Time Hop and it's my favorite app. Every morning it is one of the first things I look at and it takes pictures from whatever day for every year and you've got pictures on that day and it's such a sobering reminder of the speed of time.

‍

You know here's what you're doing a year ago today, two years ago today, three years ago. And there's so many times I see my kids and they're tiny, and I'm like, I would give a million dollars to have an hour with three year old Ben, or two year old Zanna. But at the same time, I'm like, I feel like I did a pretty good job of being still, but I think that's something I would really double down on. It's like, as much as you can think to be present, be present. 

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JON: I do love that app because Dave will send us + our wives, we have a text thread, and Dave will often send us that day's picture because oftentimes it's like our kids together. And so I do feel like that is a sort of a hack that we have that our parents didn't have that helps us stay in that mindset. 

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Be present and also know it's never going to be enough. It's always going to go by too fast. 

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DAVE: I remember with Ben vividly putting him down to naps and taking my hand and feeling his legs and his arms and his little head and thinking, remember the weight of him, how he feels on your neck. It's going to go away. And I couldn't be more present. 

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I was like Neo in the matrix and I was like, Oh, that's the way it was. Look at his little folds

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JON: I love how you do that with all of our guests, too, that we interview.

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DAVE: Yeah, yeah, I do. And I hold them tightly. And I feel they're their shaved faces

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JON: Their stubble.

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ALISON: You guys are great. So, to close out, what is bringing out the best in you right now? 

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JON: I mean, to answer on a lighter side, I feel like this summer has been great. The summer has always been, for me, it's always tricky because it's like the kids get out of school, and I am guilty of always having like, rosy colored glasses for the future. Like, this summer is going to be the best! The girls are never going to fight! We're going to eat healthy all the time! 

‍

And then it's too busy. It's too busy. We have too many trips and the next thing it's like what? We're buying backpacks already? 

‍

This summer has been really great. I feel like this summer taking my girls to the pool, I'm kind of doing some of the things that selfishly I did as a kid and liked. And I want to do those things with my girls and I feel like the summer has so far been really great. We've had our tough times because we have kids and we're humans, but it's been great.

‍

ALISON: That's cool.

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DAVE: You know what I love during the summer is dusk. Right as the sun is setting, we were playing baseball in the backyard last night at like, whatever that is, 7:30. And that little time of the day, it's so sweet. It's like right before everybody's going to bed, but I was running around the backyard and I was like, man, this is wonderful. That little magic hour in the summer to me, it's so great. So I think that's been really fun.

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JON: I love those moments where you can appreciate quietly with yourself. It can be random moments. This is one of those moments.This would make the montage of my life. This little innocuous moment right here.

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ALISON: That's beautiful. I love that. Well, thank you guys for coming on and sharing with us a little glimpse into your world and a little glimpse into the Dadville podcast. Tell everybody how they can find you and connect with your work.

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DAVE: It's www.dadvillemindspring.net17227. Look at Alison's face, haha 

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JON: This is where Dave and I are terrible. We are comical. We're always like, do we have a website? Where do people get Dadville? (Here’s their podcast link: https://pod.link/1517698133)

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ALISON: It's great. You have great conversations. I think if you're listening and you're like, “Oh, I'm worried about my husband” or “I'm worried about my boyfriend. I'm worried about my son”, it's a great place to start—to listen to some guys who have got a lot of depth and are super relatable talking about real things. Really appreciate you both.

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JON: You have been very kind. Thank you for having us on.

‍

DAVE: Yeah.

This episode is an absolute must-listen! If you're a woman journeying through your 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond, or if you're parenting a daughter, you don't want to miss this conversation. We dive into women's health, including menopause, perimenopause, hormone shifts, reproductive health, and ways to empower young women and girls. Dr. Leslie Appiah is a nationally-acclaimed OB/GYN who has helped women and girls for decades. Her practical and insightful approach is such a needed voice for all women.

‍

Here's what we cover:

1. The impact of hormones on mental health

2. How to get relief for perimenopause and menopause symptoms

3. When to consider an anti-depressant

4. Why your physician might not have a clue

5. How to find one who will!

6. How to empower your daughters to live free of body shame

Do you have questions about friendship for Dr. Alison or Dr. Appiah?⁠ Leave them here.

‍

Resources

• ‍Seek Dr. Leslie's services through the University of Colorado
• ‍Called To Medicine website
• ‍The Menopause Talk with Oprah, Drew Barrymore, and Maria Shriver
• ‍Find a Certified Menopause Provider
• ‍Submit your questions related to women's health here!
• ‍Resources for support

‍

‍Related Podcast Episode

• ‍Episode 63: Spiritual Direction, the Power of Listening, & How to Attune to Yourself and to Others

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

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Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

‍

Transcript

‍

Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week’s episode of The Best of You Podcast, where we are diving into some of these “therapy adjacent” ways of tending to your physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual health. And in today’s episode, we’re going to dive into the physical health side of things, because especially if you’re a woman, you know that your hormonal health, especially during some of these key seasons of life, really has a tremendous impact on your mental, emotional, and even your spiritual health.

‍

I’m so excited in today’s episode to introduce you to my friend and colleague, Dr. Leslie Appiah. She is here to talk to us all about women’s health, including hormones, menopause, perio-menopause, reproductive health, and some of the practical things you can do to make sure you’re trending to your hormonal health especially as it impacts your mental and emotional health. This is a fantastic episode. We get so practical. And, Dr. Appiah has agreed to come back on a future episode of the podcast to dive into our questions. As you're listening, please go to the show notes or to my website dralisoncook.com/podcast and look for The Best of You Question Doc. You can enter your questions into that Doc, and we will address those questions with Dr. Appiah in a future episode of the show. 

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Dr. Leslie Appiah is a nationally acclaimed Ob/Gyn-Gyn physician who specializes in the reproductive health of girls and women. She is also a Professor and the Division Chief of Academic Specialists in Ob/Gyn at the University of Colorado School of Medicine. She is the founder of Called to Medicine, where she coaches female physicians to create and sustain satisfying careers in academic medicine as well as provides resources to help women advocate for their reproductive health care. We’ll talk a lot more about that in this episode.

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She is the author of more than 50 peer-reviewed manuscripts and book chapters and given over 100 national and international lectures and workshops on women’s and children’s reproductive health. She serves as chair of several national and international committees on reproductive health and is the recipient of numerous awards including:

• The 2022 American Medical Association Women Physicians Inspiration Award,
• The 2022 American Medical Women’s Association Exceptional Mentor Award, and 
•  The 2020 Baylor University Distinguished Alumni Award

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She is also a 2022 inductee into the American Gynecological and Obstetrical Society (AGOS) and an alumna of the Hedwig van Ameringen Executive Leadership in Academic Medicine program.

‍

She lives in Denver, CO with her husband and 2 middle-school aged children. I’m so excited to bring you this conversation all about women’s health with Dr. Leslie Appiah.

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Alison: I am so delighted to have my friend and colleague on today to talk to us about women's health and the overlap between our medical health and our psychological and emotional and even our spiritual health that so often is divided into these silos where you go see a medical doctor and then you go see a therapist when in fact a lot of these things overlap.

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I'm so thrilled you're here, Leslie, to talk to us today about all of these things.

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Leslie: Thank you so much for having me, Alison. It's my pleasure. And I'm excited to talk about these things. As you've stated, it has a big impact on women, their mental health, their physical health, and their ability to care for themselves and their families. And so it's super important.

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Alison: Yeah. So I want to start just asking you a little bit about your journey. Tell us about yourself. You're our first medical professional on the podcast. Tell us a little bit about how you got interested in medicine and women's health in particular, and what fueled your passion.

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Leslie: Absolutely. Well, I'm one of the lucky ones where I was able to really figure out what I wanted to do very early in life. So at age nine, I became interested in pregnancy. My friend got pregnant and I was able to go along her journey with her. And I was just fascinated by the idea of helping a woman to bring this healthy, beautiful baby into the world.

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And so I knew at age nine, I wanted to become an OBGYN. And so really just stayed on that course, college, med school, the whole time never deviated for at one moment. I thought I would become a literature professor because I love literature. And so that was a moment in college. But really my heart was with caring for women.

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Alison: From age nine.

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Leslie: from age nine. I knew at age nine. So I entered college medical school and never really deviated from that.

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And in medical school, I had the opportunity to shadow a reproductive endocrinologist. So a physician that specializes in infertility and reproductive tract. And in that experience, I was able to see her perform surgery on an adolescent who was experiencing reproductive health difficulty. And I just fell in love with it.

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This young girl, it had impacted her ability to function at school and just her happiness and mental well being and to see the condition corrected. And to see her just so thankful, I knew I wanted to do that. So I decided to pursue a fellowship in pediatric and adolescent gynecology after completing residency in obstetrics and gynecology.

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So specialty training in adults and kids and helping them to have their best reproductive health. 

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Alison: That's amazing. It's so interesting because I was actually just talking to my daughter about this, who's now a young adult, around how thinking about women's reproductive health starts very young. Now. I mean, when I was young, we weren't talking about it, but now they're really talking about it starting much younger.

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Is that right?

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Leslie: Right. And you know, the age of development is about the same. It hasn't changed much. So the average age of menses or having a menstrual cycle is age 12. And that's only slightly different from, you know, several decades ago. And when you compare it to the pre-industrial age, women started much later.

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With better nutrition, we started a little bit earlier. But for the most part, you know, menses is around age 12 and breast development is around age 10. But we are discussing it more because now we know we can help young girls with the difficulties that they have.

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Whereas in the past, it was one of those “grin and bear it” type things.

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Alison: And when you say difficulties, what do you mean, Leslie?

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Leslie: Menstrual cramps, right? And we see endometriosis in adolescence. We see ovarian cysts in adolescence. Women suffered. And so we told girls, this is what it's like to be a woman. And, and we all just kind of suffer, but it's a problem, right?

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Because it affects the ability to go to school. Some girls can miss up to five days of school a month if we don't intervene or try to address their difficulties, can't participate in sports, can't spend time with friends, girls become anemic, right? So there's so much that can negatively impact their quality of life that we can now intervene.

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Alison: I love what you're saying–for so long it's just been like this is what it means to be a woman.

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You suffer. And only recently, you know, is there more and more research, more people like you coming alongside saying, no, we can alleviate some of this suffering. Being a woman doesn't just mean you have to suffer. And I just, I'm so grateful for people like you who have devoted your lives to alleviating some of that suffering.

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Leslie: Thank you. No, I completely agree. I think about the annual exam, right? So we start having annual exams, you know, really as adolescents, the well child exam and then in our 20s. And I don't think that, unfortunately, we do a good enough job of preparing women for what to expect as we enter perimenopause. We spent a lot of time discussing contraception and pregnancy, but we don't discuss the hormonal changes that women are going to experience and the fact that they're going to experience this in their thirties.

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We discuss perimenopause in our forties, menopause in the fifties, but just as fertility is declining in our thirties, so are our hormones. And so really we need to be discussing this with women very early on. Too often I hear women say, “No one prepared me for this. I don't know what's happening to my body. I'm now having hot flashes, joint pain, I can't sleep at night, I'm crying all the time…” and we should be prepared for that right? This is not a surprise.

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Alison: It's so true. I have so many friends who've said to me, “I turned 40 and I kept going to my doctor, like, ‘What is wrong with me?’ and the doctor was like, well, your body is changing, but nobody tells you.” 

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You kind of get prepared for adolescence, right? Like there's this sense of, I mean, hopefully there's this sense of your body's going to go through changes. You might have growing pains, you know, these things are going to happen. And so when it happens, it's hard, but at least, you’re prepared.

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Leslie: Can I add another thought on that? I think even in adolescence, we make that experience aberrant, right? We say, well, you know, teens go through these things and they're going to be terrible. And all of that is normal. Right. They're going through these huge hormonal changes, and we should normalize that, and we should embrace that, and we shouldn't make adolescents feel as though something is wrong with them, and they're just a burden to have around, and you know, oh, if they could just behave.

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It's normal, and so if we can normalize that experience, we can then also normalize what women are going to go through in their thirties and forties and prepare them and then how to manage it. Right? It doesn't feel good. It's not great, but we know it's going to happen. So we should prepare women for it.

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Alison: I love what you're saying. There's almost a stigma or women feel some shame. I just watched the movie that's out right now–”Are you there God? It's me, Margaret.” Have you seen that?

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Leslie: I haven't seen it. 

Alison: It's all about, you know, coming of age. And I just, it just took me right back to those feelings as a young girl. There's shame involved and then as an older woman, right, there's shame and all this stigma and I love what you're saying to normalize.

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This is just what our bodies do. This is actually amazing that our bodies do these things and just talk about them.

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Leslie: Right. And then how can we help women go through these changes, right? So that it does not have a negative impact on their quality of life and they're able to function. I mean, you know, that's the age that many women are able to really take on their careers full force, right?

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Because they've been raising children in their thirties and early forties, and then to be encumbered by, you know, sleepless nights and be worried about how you're going to present in the boardroom and the office because you're sweating. It's just not fair that we don't help women be ready for this.

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Alison: So let's talk about this because you're, you're exactly nailing it. One of the reasons I wanted to have you on was because there's so much overlap between mental health and our physical health and this whole menopause thing, whenever I see women or talk to women who are in their forties, fifties, I'm hearing now it should be even earlier. And there's any of these symptoms, right? That we're talking about fatigue, irritability, sleeplessness, brain fog, joint pain… 

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We can be so quick as therapists to go down the road of depression, anxiety, not that that may not be the case. A lot of this is in the context of changing hormones, right? So what should women who are experiencing some of these things that we're talking about, what would you recommend they do to attend to this hormonal side of things?

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Leslie: Absolutely. And to your point, you know, there are several times in our lives that we experience these hormonal changes, right? So premenstrual women have that dip in estrogen and they become symptomatic postpartum, right? Wide swings in hormones and then the perimenopause.

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So these are times that women are going to be particularly vulnerable to mood disturbances. And, studies show that as women enter the perimenopause, they're 45 to 70% more at risk of experiencing depression than they ever did in their premenopause. So women on average–let's say 25% would experience depressive symptoms in the perimenopause two years before the menopause–we're talking 45 to 70% increased risk of experiencing that.

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For women who are feeling sad and very tearful, it is important to first check in with your mental health provider because the first line for treatment is going to be, you know, antidepressants, right? After you've dealt with the behavioral things, right? There are things sometimes in our environment that we can change and we need to address.

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But after looking at antidepressant therapy or discussions around it, cognitive behavioral therapy, all of those things that we use to address depression, we know that estrogen replacement improves depressive symptoms for women in the perimenopause. We don't see that same benefit in the menopause. So once women are in their fifties, we don't see that. 

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And it makes sense because the mood disturbance is as a result of the fluctuation in the hormones. Once the hormone levels fall and they're steady, we aren't going to see such depressive symptoms. It's the fluctuation, the up and the down.

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Alison: I want to pause there. This is all very interesting to me because I talk to my friends about this all the time. So what you're saying is the fluctuations that start late thirties, early forties, there's fluctuations in the hormones that lead to the increase in propensity to depression. 

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Once you cycle through it and you come out the other side, when everything balances out, even though that estrogen is lower, are you saying you kind of hit a new baseline? 

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So here's my question. Do you hit a new baseline that is just more depressed in general, or does your body sort of catch up and it's kind of like going through puberty, you even out, and then you feel more like yourself.

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Leslie: Right, right. It's not that you're going to hit a baseline of depression. It's that you're going to kind of go back to who you were, how you felt before going through that transition. And so again, we see that during those times premenstrually, postpartum, and then in the perimenopause.

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And the studies really do show randomized controlled trials have shown that adding estrogen replacement therapy to patients who are on SSRIs, SNRIs, or who don't use that therapy, does improve their symptoms. And then you can reassess as they're going through the menopause, whether or not they need the antidepressant therapy or even the estrogen replacement.

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Now, you know, estrogen we use for hot flushes primarily in the perimenopause, but there are many, many benefits to estrogen as we are in the perimenopause.

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Alison: Leslie, let's, I want to back up. I could just dive in. Let's make sure all our listeners know, because again, so many of us haven't even scratched the surface of what this all means. Technically, how do you know you're in menopause?

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Leslie: Absolutely. So the definition of menopause is 12 months of a cessation of menses. So when women have had no menstrual cycles for 12 months, they are by definition in the menopause. The years preceding that are the perimenopause. When menstrual cycles become irregular. Sometimes they start to shorten, so they become more frequent.

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Some patients have heavier menses, or some women have heavier menstrual cycles, some women have lighter menstrual cycles, but they'll ultimately start missing menstrual cycles. And that's the perimenopause. And usually that's between ages 45 to 51. So the average age of menopause is 51 to 52.

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Alison: Okay.

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Leslie: But again, even before women start to experience the irregular menses, they start to feel some of those vasomotor symptoms, the hot flashes, the night sweats, the mood changes.

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And it's interesting, even as an OBGYN, I experienced that in my thirties and I did not know what was going on, right? It never occurred to me that I was experiencing hormonal changes. I changed my mattress. I changed my clothing. I changed all these things. 

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I thought, what in the world is wrong with me? Like, why is this happening to me? 

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And then they just stopped after several years and I just sort of ignored it. And now I'm in the menopause. And so it's back. But, so yes, we start to experience those symptoms even before our menstrual cycles become irregular.

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Alison: So that whole period, it could be 10 years, it could be eight years, you know, anywhere before you have that full year of cessation of your period, your hormones are going to be fluctuating. And that's that whole period when you're going to be more disposed toward depression, toward irritability, in addition to a lot of those physiological symptoms, which is just good for women to know if you're in that, you know, late thirties, forties, and you're experiencing some of this, a lot of it. That potentially could be a result of these fluctuating hormones. 

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Again, I love what you're saying, Leslie. Check it out with a mental health provider and also check it out with your, would it be your OBGYN?

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Leslie: Yes, it would be OB GYN. There are some internal medicine providers and some primary care providers who specialize in women's health, but it would have to be someone specialized in women's health. Not all primary care providers, not all internists feel comfortable with women's health. And so if a woman were going to rely on that, that would be the recommendation to look for someone with expertise in women's health. 

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And I will even say not all OBGYNs are well versed in menopause. And I think women know that, right? Because we've been seeing our OBGYNs for our entire lives. And yet we are not prepared for this because not all physicians have that experience. And I will say this.

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The Women's Health Initiative that came out 15, 20 years ago did many good things, but one of the downsides was that a lot of women were pulled off of their hormone therapy. But even worse than that, education around menopause and hormone replacement therapy was discontinued in our medical education.

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So there is a generation of physicians who don't understand hormone replacement therapy, don't understand the menopause because hormone replacement with therapy is not for everyone, right? 

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But you need to understand the menopause, you need to understand perimenopause and what women are going through because it's really harmful to dismiss these symptoms for women.

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Alison: I love what you're saying. I mean, I love how you said that. Again, just, just for listeners to hear that there's suffering involved in the sense that your body is not functioning right. You don't feel well. And you're, like you said, oftentimes your kids are older, you've been looking forward to maybe having more capacity, more bandwidth.

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And then suddenly your body doesn't feel well. And you don't know if it's depression or if it's your body, either way, even if HRT isn't an option for you, there are still other things to try.

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Leslie: Yes.

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Alison: And I just want to add, Leslie, I mean, my experience with, you know, the medical community is, I've had very few people who know what to do. I've had very few doctors. So that's so interesting what you're saying, that a lot of doctors just haven't even been trained. It's like this whole missing piece in their training to help a woman in her forties who has these vague symptoms to understand what she's going through.

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Leslie: Yes, I remember as a resident, a patient would walk in with these symptoms and you would almost go into a catatonic state yourself because you would not be prepared to have this discussion. 

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And this could be a 45 minute discussion, right? So there's nothing worse than a woman feeling gaslighted for going in and saying she's having these symptoms and someone say, well, yep, it's that age or, you know, go get your thyroid checked.

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And yes, we should check all of these things, but for the vast majority of women, it's the perimenopause, it's the menopause and we need to know how to help them. Period.

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Alison: Yeah. So just to recap here, you should definitely see a mental health provider, but look for a physician that somehow specifies that they've been trained in women's health too–physicians trained in perimenopause, that they've got some knowledge, or you're probably going to walk away frustrated.

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Leslie: Absolutely. And the North American Menopause Society certifies providers in menopause. So one could Google “certified menopause provider” and find one in their area. And that would be my recommendation because those providers are going to give evidence-based care. They're going to discuss the full range of options, right?

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Non-hormonal to hormonal, behavioral, dietary, exercise, the entire gamut to make sure that women choose the option that is best for them. And what I find, Alison, is some women just want to understand. It's not every woman who even wants an intervention, right? 

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Some women just want to understand, “What am I going through? What is this? How long is it going to last? And what kind of things can I do, support wise, to get through this?”

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And we honor that. We honor that.

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Alison: I love that. You use the word gaslighting. Nobody wants to feel crazy. You know, this is normal, right? There's a name for this. It's going to last. 

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Now I want to ask you, Leslie, you did mention once you get through the 12 months where you are now full on in menopause, what happens after that? 

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Do you suddenly just feel fine? Does it take a little while? Are your hormones still, you know, when, when can you anticipate? Because I'm thinking of women who are like, okay, I've got a name for it. This is what I'm going through. You know, at least now I know I've got these options.

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And then the question is, when will I feel better? When will I feel more myself? And, and I know it's different for every woman, but give me a sense of what happens to the body after you're officially in menopause.

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Leslie: Sure. So unfortunately, Alison, it gets worse before it gets better, to be honest. and part of me, I struggle with the definition of menopause, right? Because it kind of gives the impression that this is a finite period, right? The 12 months you stop having periods, you're in the menopause. That's really when symptoms tend to get a little bit exacerbated and women can experience the hot flashes, night sweats, mood disturbances, brain fog, lack of focus, joint pain for seven to 10 years.

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Yes, after you're officially diagnosed with the menopause, you’ll experience that for seven years on average,

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Alison: Wow.

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Leslie: I have women who are on hormone therapy in their late 60s, early 70s, and, you know, trying to discontinue it, they're very symptomatic. So some women just have those symptoms for a really long time.

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We know that there are some ethnic variations, some ethnic groups, Hispanic women, Asian women, African American women tend to sometimes experience menopause differently. Part of that is cultural, how menopause is discussed in the culture, right? For some cultures it is discussed for many, many years and decades.

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So people are prepared and they plan to go through it and they're better prepared. And in some cultures where these things are taboo, women may experience more difficulty because they're not as prepared or aware of what to experience.

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Alison: Interesting. So as you prepare, when you use that word, I know you've kind of gone through the gamut of, but is that what you mean by where you prepare, you adjust your diet, maybe you adjust your exercise, maybe you even create more margin? 

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What, what do you mean by prepare? Do you adjust your expectations to some degree so that you're not stressed all the time because you can't figure out what's going on with you?

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Leslie: Right. I think that's primarily adjusting expectations, understanding what you're going to experience and that there are options for you. And then what those options might be. I think knowing is a good thing. It decreases part of the anxiety and stress around it. The studies show that the Mediterranean type diet is supportive of menopause in terms of severity of symptoms, the cognitive challenges that women experience, you know, decreasing the amount of alcohol we take in, and being as healthy as we can be.

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Alison: Mm hmm.

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Leslie: It's going to be particularly helpful during that time. Smoking cessation is going to be helpful during the perimenopause. So those sorts of things are things that women can do to help mitigate some of the symptoms that they experience. I think just a lot of self care and understanding, “I'm not feeling well today, so I'm going to dial back a little bit if I can”, right? Not everybody can, but “I'm going to dial back a little bit on the intensity of what I'm doing”, to try to mitigate the symptoms. 

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But you know, hot flashes might happen seven, 10, 12 times a day, you know, so you can't always avoid that. But those are some of the things that women can do.

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Alison: Yeah, it's a chunk of time. If you think about the perimenopause all the way out the other side, which is what you're saying, it can have a long tail out the other side too, until you really come to baseline. And I know it's different for every woman, but I'm also thinking as I'm listening to you, that you've got all of the different options that you've laid out medically. 

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And then I can imagine that getting mental health support, maybe even an antidepressant, could also be part of your treatment. Even if the bulk of the symptoms are a result of the hormone fluctuations, there's no shame in that, and it certainly could be helpful, even if you're someone who hasn't gone that route before, that might be a route that could help. 

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I could imagine that it could be a way to just care for yourself. Just give yourself a little extra help to deal with some of the irritability and that kind of thing, especially if you're still parenting or you're working full time or you've got serious demands. That could be a way to get yourself some relief.

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Leslie: Absolutely. Absolutely. Many women are just going to need an antidepressant. We could do cognitive behavioral therapy, but some of us are going to need an antidepressant. Even women who have never experienced depression ever in their lives before, have an increased chance to experience it. 

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We know that having had depression and anxiety before, you're going to be at an increased rate of experiencing it again. I think that the study for women's health across the nation showed a two to four fold increased risk of depression. And that four fold part is for women who have had depression in the past and women who have experienced adverse life events. And what we are seeing is that that plays a big role in the mood disturbances around the menopause, a history of adverse life events,

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Alison: Are you talking about trauma essentially?

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Leslie: Trauma, exactly trauma, yes, that is going to increase it. 

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And so those women will need antidepressant therapy. And I think what women sometimes misunderstand about it is that it doesn't have to be forever, right? There are adjustment type disorders that we can use antidepressants for 6 months, 12 months, a year, 2 years. And then wean women off and they do fine, right? 

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This is a period of time where we're experiencing an adjustment to a new phase. And it is okay to use these therapies. Many times they're just really low dose, uh, therapies that women need, um, around this time.

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Alison: I just love what you're saying because, again, there's just no stigma and I think about a lot of conversations right now are happening in the mental health field around trauma and around healing, CBT, some of these other modalities, IFS, EMDR, and a lot of it's amazing and a lot of it gets at let's heal the the childhood memories, let's heal the wounds and we don't want to just necessarily treat the symptoms. We want to get to the root. 

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But when it comes to something like what we're describing–perimenopause, menopause–where there's this huge hormonal change, you could CBT yourself all you want and you're not going to fix the fact that– correct me if I'm wrong–that your serotonin and your dopamine levels are changing and that's just a physiological thing and an SSRI can provide some relief. We have to function. 

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Leslie: Right. And CBT, you know, and talk therapy, and those other therapies, they're going to take a while to work. If you're getting down to those adverse life events, it's going to take some uncovering of layers. And women have to go to work tomorrow, right? 

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Not that antidepressants work immediately. They also take time, but people have to function sooner than later. And so it's going to be a combination of those things. 

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You know, one of the things, to your point, I think networks are really, really important for women. I think it's important for adolescent girls, right? To have these positive support groups, systems in place that they can talk through things and women who are in the perimenopause and menopause are going to need the same thing, right? We're going to need that because it takes a stigma away.

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Alison: So good. It's so true. You've got to find your person or your people with whom to go through it together. Don't go through it alone.

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Leslie: Right. And that and that's for all kinds of mental health things and just life in general. I think about how to build resilience and how to have an overall sense of wellbeing. I think those networks are important in teaching girls how to find healthy networks as adolescents.

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That's part of what we do as a pediatric and adolescent gynecology provider. I talk to all of my girls, all of my patients about their friends and their peer groups, because all of that plays a role in their mental health. All of that helps them to manage these fluctuations in their hormones. Who are the people that you spend time with and how are they supporting you, right?

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And I think that's really important for women. And thankfully we're talking about this more, you know, Oprah has her series out. And so this is what women need to have these conversations and these networks and these dialogues to help us get through this.

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Alison: I was so glad when I saw her put it out in the public conversation in a destigmatizing way. I want to talk a little bit about–we kind of did this in reverse order–I also want to touch on, while we have a little bit of time left, how you also help women advocate for their reproductive health, starting with young girls. 

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I'm curious, what would you say to our listeners? How would you want them to be promoting reproductive health in their daughters?

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Leslie: Right. Yes, absolutely. So I think first, we as adults are going to have to become educated in what is fact and what's fiction, right? There are a lot of myths around all sorts of reproductive health issues around fertility, abortion, menopausal health–there's just a lot of myths. 

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And I think women, we need to educate ourselves about these things so that we can have honest, open dialogue with our girls, because our girls are going to get the information from somebody, right?

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And we want that information to come from trusted sources. And so part of teaching girls to advocate for themselves is to help them understand what is factual about their health. And that is why we encourage parents to bring their young girls to see a gynecologist. It's between the ages of 12 to 13. And that freaks some people out because they think, “Oh my gosh, I'm not going to bring my daughter to a gynecologist at that age. I don't want her to have a pelvic exam and we're not doing that.” 

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But we are having a conversation about what is normal and what is abnormal in your development–breast development, discharge, pubic hair, body odor, what emotions you might feel as an adolescent. We have discussions that are age appropriate.

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At age 12, we're going to talk about your body changing. As they become older, we'll talk about the hormones and the emotions that they're feeling and how to manage those emotions. But I think the more the girls can have these conversations with physicians who know the truth, the better they can be prepared to advocate for themselves as they get older.

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And part of what we do is we talk about advocacy, right? When a girl comes in, we make sure that the appointment is very centered on her. What do you feel comfortable with? What do you feel comfortable not talking about? So we begin to empower them in that visit. So that when they walk outside of our office, they can be empowered in their relationships with other people.

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Alison: That's amazing. I love what you're saying. So as a parent, you can rely on (and I would assume) these gynecologists who've been certified in a specific way. It's like a parent has a wingman, right? 

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These are hard conversations and there you've got a doctor, a trained physician who can help your daughter normalize and understand what's happening with her body. I love that, which equips her to not feel shame about it, to not feel stigma about it, to have someone to talk to about it, to be more likely to talk to her mom about it, or her dad about it, or her friends about it in a healthy way.

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Leslie: That's absolutely right. And you know, I think many parents also think that we're going to talk about sex and how to have sex, but that's not what we're here for, right? That is a parent's role to have those discussions. We will probe as appropriate and provide appropriate information because we want girls to be safe.

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But that is not the primary focus of that visit, right? The primary focus of these visits is to help girls understand their changing bodies–what's normal, abnormal and how to advocate for themselves. And we start that by giving them power and autonomy in that visit.

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Alison: That's amazing.

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Leslie: Right. And so women start having those conversations with their children and then women also need to begin to advocate for themselves.

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I think, I mean, we know women are intimidated by physicians. Even as adults, women go into the doctor's office and they present their complaints, and if they're not heard, they sort of leave it at that, right? Because they don't want to push back against their physician or alienate their physician.

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But really then you should just find another physician, right? If the physician that you see is not hearing you, then you need to find another physician, because you need to feel totally empowered. It has to be with your reproductive health provider. And so I just encourage women to do their research, interview different physicians and to see who they can truly partner with in their care.

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And so that's my goal in terms of helping women to advocate for themselves. What is the knowledge that you should have? Right? What is fact? And then what are your options for care? And then hopefully women can take that with them to their physicians and find someone who really wants to partner with them in their journey in their reproductive health journey.

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Alison: Gosh, that's such a great approach. And it's so interesting listening to you, because it's the same thing I say to people about therapy. I always say to people, you should interview a therapist–you should interview a couple. And so many people have this idea of, “I go to my medical doctor and they're the expert and I just have to take, you know”, as opposed to this idea of partnership.

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And I would say the same thing to people about therapists, but it's so fascinating to hear you say that. Similarly, about a gynecologist or an internal medicine doctor that go to a couple, see where you feel comfortable, see where you feel like someone's inviting you, you know, where you're going to partner together around your health.

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Especially as women, when it comes to your reproductive health, you need to have some agency in that.

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Leslie: That's right. That's right. And, you know, it's intimidating because there's all these co-pays and you have to pay a copay for this doctor and then will insurance cover that doctor? 

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Women can really start online looking at the physician bios. What do they say about how they view health care? Are they there just to do things correctly and pick the right diagnosis, or are they there to really support you through your journey and do shared decision making? And the biggest honor for me is when a patient comes to me and says, I researched you. I researched everything about you online and I decided that I wanted you to be my physician.

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And unfortunately, some women wait six, eight months, a year even to see me. They refuse to see anyone else because they've decided that they want to see me based on what they've read and the reviews. And I take that seriously, right? So when I see that patient, that patient has set the bar, right? They have told me what they expect and I am going to live up to that.

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And so I partner with them and help them to make the best decisions by giving them the evidence and then seeing what's comfortable for them. That's what we should do.

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Alison: I love that, Leslie. I want to have you back on at some point, if you're open for it, to take some of our listener questions for you, because this is just such an important part of our holistic health, our mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual health is especially as women, and I just so appreciate all that you do, all that you pour out for so many people. 

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I want to ask you this because I ask all my guests and I'm curious, what do you wish your younger self knew? I would imagine your younger self would have been in medical school studying a lot of this stuff. What do you wish you knew about your hormonal and medical health as a woman, when you were in your twenties that you know now?

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Leslie: Yeah. You know, that's a great question. I think that fortunately I was an athlete, and I'll start there because I think physical health is really, really important to an adolescent girl's mental health. And it's important to our health as we get older, partly because we learn how to engage with others when we're doing competitive sports and those sorts of things, and our bodies are the best that they can be. 

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So thankfully I was an athlete. And so I felt very confident in that part of who I was in terms of physical wellness. I would say that networking and identifying people who were the best people for me is something that I didn't know how to do and I didn't know how to do when I was younger in my twenties. I developed that a little bit better as I entered college and formed a really great network of women in college, but I would say, and this is not medically related, but I would say figuring out what you're good at and just doing that. 

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Like don't try to be someone you aren't. Don't try to strive for other things because people do them. Really identifying what I am good at, and doing that. I think that builds your self-esteem and that helps you to make better decisions in your relationships, and it helps you, I think, to advocate for yourself because your esteem is developed. 

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That's what I would say to my younger self. Health-wise, I would say there were no concerns there, but I would say in terms of developing that confidence, self-esteem, I think doing the things that I was best at is the advice I would give my younger self.

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Alison: I love that you've, well, you've certainly found a niche.

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Leslie: I love what I do. I feel fortunate to be able to do it. I love hearing women's stories and, and really just being present for those visits. And so I wouldn't be doing anything else. I love this.

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Alison: I love it. How can our listeners find you? I know you primarily work with other female physicians, but how can folks who are listening find you and learn more about what your services are?

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Leslie: Absolutely. So as you know, I am the division chief of General OB GYN at the University of Colorado. And so I am fortunate enough to be able to provide consultative services under that role as a faculty member. Individuals can seek services from me through the University of Colorado. 

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And then you spoke about the coaching. So my company, Called to Medicine, allows me to coach and support young female physicians to continue to build their career in academic medicine, cuz I think it's so important that women remain in medicine and that we remain in academic medicine so we can train future leaders so that we can make sure that women are involved in research and in research studies and push the initiative forward for women's health research.

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One of the things we didn't get to talk about was kind of where the research is going with perimenopause and menopause, but we need more research and we're going to need women and women from diverse backgrounds, geographically, ethnically, socioeconomic status wise, to be able to push this research forward.

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And so that is partly achieved through Called to Medicine. And then the last part of that, as you stated, was to help women to advocate for themselves and, and would love to just share knowledge and education so women feel empowered.

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Alison: Well, we will link to your company website in the show notes. You're amazing. Leslie, I've just loved getting to know you as a person and I love getting to know more about your professional passion and all that you're doing for women and girls and just so grateful for you and other female physicians.

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If you're listening and you're in the field or you have friends who are in the field or you have daughters who are in the field, please send them to Leslie's website, Called to Medicine. We need you. There's just been, for too long, unnecessary suffering for women, so thank you. Thank you so much for what you do. And thanks for being with us today.

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Leslie: Thank you, Alison. Thank you for having me on. And I'm so thankful to have been able to get to know you over the last few years and that you're doing this podcast and really just shining a light on all of the things that women and humans experience. And so I appreciate you. And I would love to come back and answer questions from your audience.

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Alison: I'm thinking we need to do that. That would be really cool. Thank you. All right. So everybody check out The Best of You Question form if you've got your questions for Leslie and we'll plan another Q and A in the future.

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Imagine if someone sat with you and listened to you attentively for as long as you needed. That's what I experienced through a series of spiritual listening retreats. And today, I invited the Rev. Dr. Stephen Macchia and a spiritual director in training, Rowena Day, to talk with us about the practice of spiritual direction and deep listening as one component of your mental, emotional, and spiritual health.

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This episode is so rich, so soothing, and so deeply nourishing. As a therapist, I have found spiritual direction to be a powerful part of my own mental health practices. It's also taught me so much about how to become a better listener in my relationships with others.

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Here's what we discuss:

1. The deepest need we all have

2. How to attune to your own soul

3. The neurobiology of presence

4. What to do if quiet is hard for you

5. The links between spiritual and mental health

Do you have questions about friendship for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

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Resources

• More about the Emmaus Certificate in Formational Leadership
• The Spiritual Journey 3-book series by David G. Benner
• "God shows up disguised as your life."-Paula D'Arcey
• Visit leadershiptransformations.org
• ‍Seeking God Together by Alice Freiling
• ‍Crafting a Rule of Life by Steve Macchia
• ‍Ephesians 3:16-19
• ‍Psalm 62:1-8
• ‍Romans 12:1
• ‍stevemacchia.com
• ‍Email Dr. Alison to be connected with Rowena
• Resources for support

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‍Related Podcast Episodes:

• ‍‍Episode 31 and Episode 44 with Rowena
• Episode 47: Spiritual Bypassing vs. Embodied Faith & How Not to Harm Those Who Are Hurting, Including Yourself

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.

If you've been searching for a better alternative to traditional healthcare and want to take your health to new heights, visit www.WildHealth.com/Premium to apply for membership.

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.

Head to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code BESTOFYOU to receive UP TO 39%!

Visit hiyahealth.com/BESTOFYOU and get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults.

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey everyone. And welcome back to this week's episode of the best of you podcast. I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad you keep coming back this summer. We finished up a series on friendship last week, but I felt like there was still more to mine in that well. There are just so many questions I get about how to increase support, whether it's through therapy or through some of these other ways that we're going to talk about in these next few weeks.

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So this is a little mini series. I'm not even sure it's a series. I'm going to do a few episodes just on other ways to increase your support, other ways to make sure that you are flourishing in as many ways that are in your control, that are in your capacity to control.

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We can't control everything. Sometimes life is just hard. Sometimes we're struggling, but there are things we can do to pull in support. And again, I think about that MEPS, that mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual and Each of those dimensions, we need to be checking in and thinking about where do I need a little bit of support?

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Where do I maybe need a little bit of input? Where do I need somebody checking in on me? And so in these next few episodes, I'm going to talk about some of what I call these therapy adjacent ways that you might want to consider.

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Now, I'm also going to talk about therapy in one of these episodes and really walk you through different types of therapy, what kind of therapy, how you find a therapist, all those kind of brass tacks questions. So there's a lot we're going to cover in these next few weeks. Stay tuned. You're going to find some practical ways to continue to increase your support network. 

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So today I want to talk about spiritual direction. I've mentioned spiritual direction frequently on the podcast. It's something I use. I have a monthly spiritual director, and I have for years. I was part of a spiritual listening community, which I've also talked about in prior episodes.

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It's a really unique way of getting support. It's not therapy. It's also different from what many of you know as discipleship. And we're going to talk about that, but it is someone checking in on your soul, checking in on how you're doing in your relationship with God, in your spiritual life, which actually bleeds out into all your relationships, right? Because when you're connected to yourself and to God, there's a way in which you show up more effectively in all of your relationships. So these all overlap, but spiritual direction is a very unique way to get support. I've invited two of my dear friends on to talk to us today about what spiritual direction is, about what you might expect from it and how you might find one.

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We'll talk to the Reverend Dr. Stephen Macchia, he's the founder and president of Leadership Transformations Inc., also known as LTI. LTI is a ministry that focuses on spiritual formation and the spiritual discernment processes.Steve is an ordained minister. He's a speaker. He's a retreat facilitator, a ministry mentor and coach, and he's a spiritual director himself.

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He's also the author of 16 books, including his latest, The Discerning Life, Broken and Whole. Crafting a rule of life. We talk about that in this episode. It's a wonderful book that I've used many times and the Baker bestseller, Becoming a Healthy Church. These are great resources for anyone who's interested in thinking about how to make our churches healthier spaces.

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We talk so much about what's hard about church and Steve is someone who's really coming in and saying, let's figure out how to make churches healthier, how to really make churches a place where we're growing. Deeply, and I really respect him for that. And then I also asked Rowena Day back on the podcast, you know, Rowena, she's been on the podcast before in episodes 31 and episode 44.

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She's a writer, an artist, and she's a spiritual director in training. She's going through the process of becoming a spiritual director. She's also the mom of four children between the ages of one and eight. And she and her husband live in Washington. DC. She and I met over a decade ago in one of those spiritual listening communities put on by LTI and led by Dr.

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Steven Macchia. So please enjoy this conversation about spiritual direction, spiritual discernment, and how to grow spiritually as one component of your mental, emotional, spiritual, and physical health.

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*Music*

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Alison: So to get started, Steve, I would love to hear a little bit about how you got interested in spiritual formation, spiritual listening, spiritual direction. I know you were a pastor for many years and then you started this organization that's more centered on these spiritual formation practices. So tell us a little bit about how that evolved in your life.

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Steve Macchia: Well, I was on the pastoral staff at Grace Chapel in Lexington, Mass. for 11 years in four different pastoral positions. And then I went to a group called Vision New England, where I was for 14 years. And in the middle of that time, I said to a friend of mine, it seems like everybody in my life has an agenda for me, has something they want from me. And I need someone objective to listen to me. and help me sift and sort my way through my spiritual journey. 

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And this good friend of mine said, you need to meet David Freihoff, who is an Episcopal monk with the Society of St. John the Evangelist in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And I had the audacity at that time because I was, you know, a professional ministry person. I had my sport coat and tie on every day, and I went to my office and I led my organization. And I had the audacity to invite him when he was in my area to stop by because I wanted to interview him and see if what my friend had to say was really true. 

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When he walked into my office and he graciously said yes to that invitation, which is amazing to me, he had blue jean overalls and a t-shirt and open toe sandals on. And he sat down across from me in my professional desk setting. And as soon as he opened his mouth, I knew he had something that I desperately needed and wanted. And it was a real heart for God, a real genuine, simple, yet beautiful way of relating to Jesus. 

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To make a long story short, he has been my spiritual director for more than 30 years. And every month or so I go to see him and I tell him my tale of woes or my questions about God or my issues or my joys, my delights. You know, it's a relationship founded on attentiveness, listening and teaching me how to be more attentive to the work of God in my life and to the biblical text as it comes alive in my spiritual or prayer closet journey, and in my daily life experience. And he came alongside me, he was willing to take this on, take me on, and a role that has become a life-changing role, the role of a spiritual director. 

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I learned from him how to be a spiritual director, and then our organization, Leadership Transformations, almost immediately when we founded the organization 20 years ago, we started a program called SELAH in training people in spiritual direction that Ro is going to be joining. And I guess the rest is history, but for me, Alison, it all began with a single relationship of a very godly, Christ-centered, humble, gentle, holy man, who I knew I wanted to spend time with, and he's listened to my soul ever since.

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Alison: Steve, tell me a little bit about what you mean by agenda. I thought that was interesting. You said prior to just sitting with this humble person who asked questions, you felt like everyone had an agenda. What do you mean by that?

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Steve Macchia: Well, you know, if we're not prayerful and contemplative and reflective, we are actually quite manipulative in life. We have agendas for people. We have a way that we want them to live or to act or react to us, to the people around us. You know, we're in a marketing culture where we're constantly trying to present a message that others will... absorb or receive or buy or whatever. And same with others coming at us. I just felt like I was surrounded by people that needed something or wanted something.

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Alison: And this is even in the church community.

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Steve Macchia: Oh, gosh, yes. We’re a bunch of human beings that are within the Christian community with needs and wants and desires. And so they may have wanted my attention for financial resources from our organization, or they may have wanted my attention to promote their program or their particular ministry. 

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I worked with a regional ministry with about 80 different denominations and 6000 congregations, and there was always just a need that I needed to fix or take care of. And I just was looking for someone that didn't have that need and had instead a real desire to companion me as a brother. No other pretense attached to it. No other agenda attached to it.

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Alison: That's so powerful. Rowena, how about you? What led you to participate in this spiritual listening community that you and I both partook of? It's called Emmaus. Steve, it's part of your organization. You guys set it up. And it's a series of, I would say, would you call it group spiritual direction in a way, Steve?

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Steve Macchia: Exactly, that is what it is. We didn't always call it that, but that's what it was.

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Alison: So it's a little bit of what you're describing where there are small groups of people where we are simply listening to each other in a structured way. Rowena, what led you to feel the need to take part in that in your life?

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Rowena: I think I've always been fairly introspective, just the nature of how I'm wired. But I think there was a desire to find some companions on the journey and I'd never heard of spiritual direction, but I experienced it through a one-day women's retreat that LTI offered and I signed up for an hour slot. And I just remember feeling, wow, this is... very nourishing. 

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I think our souls are looking for satisfaction and you know, we can spend a lifetime looking for it in anything and everything. And God is our creator and he made us and he made us to be satisfied in knowing him and finding kind of the grounding of our being in him. And so I think just the work of the spirit in me kind of creating that desire to really seek, you know, what is going to really satisfy me? And that is knowing God deeply and within myself and knowing myself and just feeling like I can inhabit the world, just securely rooted in God and who He is and who He has made me to be. 

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I just found spiritual direction such a life-giving, nourishing way to pay attention to my own soul. And then to do that within a group, in a mass, and to kind of have the space held and certain structures in place to help us as human beings practice some holy restraint so we're not trying to fix and solve each other, but we're really able to set ourselves aside and listen to that person and be listened to was just, like, you don't experience that in life in very many places. And it just, I think it just created conditions to really begin to grow and thrive.

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Alison: Yeah, I think of the psychology term attunement as very much linked to what's happening in this idea of spiritual direction or spiritual listening. It's someone attuning to another soul. So it's me attuning to you. It's listening to your words without that agenda, as you said, Steve. It's hearing literally the words that you're saying. There's that attunement that we need to come alive. We are not designed to live alone in isolation. It's that embodied presence that we bring to each other. 

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Just here before we dive in too deeply to kind of differentiate between the work of therapy and the work of spiritual direction, I want to point out that there is an attunement component to both. When we go see a therapist, a therapist is attuning to us, hopefully without an agenda. How would you see the difference, Steve? I'll certainly weigh in as well, but I'm curious how you differentiate, because I know you're very clear to make that distinction. I've participated in both and there is a clear distinction. I'd love to hear from you how you see the distinction.

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Steve Macchia: I like that word attunement. It reminds me of a tuning fork, you know, where you're tuning to the particular sounds where there's some connection and unity to the sound. When I look at spiritual formation in general, I see spiritual formation generally, the attunement, if you will, to the true God, and the true self, or the true me. The more I get to know the true God, not all these false gods and false representations of God, but the true God, and if I get to know the true me, not these falsehoods or pretenses or things that we're trying to present to the wider world, but instead to just be the true person that God made us to be, made you and me to be, the more we get to know that true you and that true God, that's how we're being spiritually formed. And the closer in proximity and in parallel and attunement to both, the healthier, the stronger, the more vibrant, the more alive we become. 

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So when I consider all of the caring ministries or caring relationships, we do have counseling, we do have coaching, we do have mentoring, we do have discipling, pastoring, spiritual direction. I think all of those are healthy, vibrant, important roles and relationships, and I do think it's important for people who are serving in any one of them to know what they're distinctly offering. Because for me, I'm a pastor, I'm a coach. I'm a discipler. I'm a spiritual director. I need to figure out when I'm with a particular person, what do they need me to be in order to be the best I can be as one to continue that attunement. To help attune their heart to God's heart and their heart to the true nature of how God made them to be rather than listening to lies or listening to the falsehoods of others or listening to the pressure points of others or the stresses that others are bringing upon us. 

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Now, how do we listen to God? How do we listen to ourselves and to provide as pure of listening as I can so that what I'm doing is I'm giving voice back to the person I'm sitting with as a directee saying what I'm noticing. Here's what I'm hearing. Here's what I'm sensing. Here's maybe a way to get maybe closer in touch with God's purpose or plan in the midst of that story. 

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But the difference between that and counseling is I think a spiritual director is less directive, interestingly, even though the word director is there. It's far less directive. Whereas a counselor, you go to a counselor because you want feedback, you want help. you're in an issue, you're in a relationship that's not healthy, you're trying to make some decisions and you want feedback, you want the wisdom and the counsel of another and that's good and that's important but for me what I try to do as a spiritual director is I try to create space where there's pure listening, like you and Ro experienced at Emmaus, as pure as possible. 

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There's no such thing as completely pure listening but to get to it as purely as possible. All I want is to be there for you. I want to dive into your story that when I'm giving voice to, if I'm giving voice to anything, that you would say, absolutely, that is what I'm saying. As opposed to, “No, you know, you missed that point. No, I wasn't saying that.” or “I wasn't meaning that”. That means I missed the point. I wasn't a good listener. 

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If I'm a good listener, a good attentive attunement specialist, that person, if I say anything, that person's going to have maybe tears in their eyes and say, “That is exactly what I said”, because I think what–and I think you'd agree, Alison, as a counselor–people don't want to be fixed. They don't want to be corrected. Everyone does, however, want to be listened to. And if we can provide healthy, God-centered, them-centered, attentiveness, I think we're serving them well. 

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So there's crossover in these roles. They're not totally separated by a big fence. There's some permeable membrane that's attached to all of these caring roles. But I think when I'm in a spiritual director role, I really just want to spend as much, 80% of the time maybe, listening, 

and then 10% of the time, let's sit in silence, and 10% of the time, I'll give you some of my noticing.

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Alison: Yeah, yeah, I love that. So when I participated in the spiritual listening community–I did it for two years, it's quarterly retreats, so I did eight retreats–I was a therapist at the time. I was trained as a therapist, and it, to me, felt like it brought in a missing piece. They are different. And it brought in a missing piece during that experience. 

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I actually had a profound experience of feeling freed to go back into the work of being a therapist. As you well know, Steve, you were part of it. Because it brought in the piece of the listening without agenda, which freed me as a therapist to realize, “Oh, the Holy Spirit is right here”. And even if I'm doing a therapeutic intervention, the Holy Spirit is still right here with me. I'm not doing it alone. It's not on me to be the expert. 

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In my field, we can feel like we have to be the expert, not necessarily fixing a problem, but providing the right diagnostic intervention. And as I was part of that listening, I was astonished by the power of the structure. For the listener who isn't familiar with the structure–and I think it's a fantastic structure for folks to use in small groups, informally on your own, where we're so quick to pile in with our advice: “Here's what to do, have you thought about this? This is what you should do”, which just adds more noise to our souls–I was astonished by, you know, each person would get, I think, something like 15 minutes to share, uninterrupted with the timer. And then after that 15 minutes, sit in silence for a certain amount of time, and it's vulnerable. You've just shared. And then you're sitting and everybody's sitting with you in what you've shared. 

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Nobody's jumping in to fix, to offer advice, to analyze. And then the next round is people reflecting back to you verbatim words that you said. I heard you say this word five times and it is so powerful. I learned so much from that and I'm curious. 

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Rowena, for you, you know, what stood out to you? I would say for me, what stood out the most was that the vulnerability of simply being heard and then having people reflect back words that they heard me say. And it kind of spoiled me, to be honest. Because now if I go into a small group setting or a group of friends–and I do this sometimes and there's no shame–but when I'm in a setting and people just jump in, I'm like, “Oh, oh no, I just need to be heard”. You know, it really spoiled me. 

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So I'm curious, Rowena, for you, what stood out from that experience.

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Rowena: Yeah, I think it's the uniqueness of people holding space for you, and holding up a mirror to you of words that you said. You can say, “Oh, wow, I did say that several times”. And then you can kind of sit with that and ask God about it more. So it's really interesting. I feel like we are all sort of these acorns that are trying to germinate and bust out of the soil and grow. In spiritual direction, I think the distinction is that the Holy Spirit is the sun and the water helping the acorn grow and then maybe the director is like a fellow acorn over here, maybe adding some nutrients to the soil just by listening. 

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But it requires such trust that God is real–that he's here–that I don't need to be the one to fix. And it requires such a getting out of the way and holding ourselves back in like a holy restraint kind of way that is just so counter cultural and counter intuitive. I think David Benner says in his book about spiritual direction that “relationships are malnourished from a lack of attention”. And so spiritual direction is a way that we can give attention to our relationship with God. And that creates just such a nourishment for us when we actually take time and then we have someone companioning alongside us. It's so powerful and it helps all of our individual acorns and collectively to really germinate and grow.

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Steve Macchia: I was going to say that one of the elements here that both of you are mentioning is the gift of silence in community. I remember going early on, before LTI was even born, on silent retreats. I didn't know anybody in the room. But after a weekend, I was tearful to say goodbye to these people. Never had a conversation with them. Never never talked to them. Even over meals. The meals were silent meals. 

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But at the end of the weekend, we're like hugging each other saying goodbye. We don't know anything about each other except that we shared a weekend in silence And I remember praying at the time, “Lord, I want to do this with people I know, not just strangers”, and God answered my prayer through the ministry of LTI to be able to experience community without conversation. 

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Silence is a bonding mechanism. It's a way in which we're bonded together. So like in our Emmaus communities that both of you are part of, in those times together, they were blanketed with “Okay, let's just be let's just be together”. But let's not say anything, you know, because words are going to destroy the moment. 

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And think about it, the most intimate things that we do with the people we love the most are not about conversation. It's about presence. And the gift of real, authentic, genuine, deep presence is a healer. It's a restorer. It brings vibrancy and life. 

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And so I just want to say that what I love about spiritual direction and group direction is I love surprising individuals or groups with blocks of silence. Because what happens in the silence is that God through his spirit taps on the shoulder of our hearts in unique and marvelous and wonderful ways, surprising ways, mysterious ways. And if we're not creating that space, we can go through an entire life without experiencing the fullness and the richness of what we're describing today. 

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So, yes, Alison, I agree. I am spoiled by the community that I'm a part of and creating life for others. When I go into those other settings where people like talking over each other or fixing, it feels like fingers on a chalkboard and it bristles within me. But it's because my heart has been in touch with the longing of being known, being heard, being with. And I think that's what we're wanting. I want to put emphasis on that, you know, that quiet space together is actually amazingly healing and restorative and enlightening.

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Alison: That is a whole word. I don't want to put words on it. That's powerful. It's presence. 

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You know, my mind is going even to the neurobiology of that, that there is something powerful happening when two human beings are present with each other regardless of words. And perhaps, in an embodied way that transcends what the mind can do.

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Steve Macchia: Well, Alison, maybe you've done some research or study on eye contact. You know, it's through the eyes that we actually fall in love. It's through the eyes that we actually notice, when our eyes are fixed or locked on each other and we're in good space, it's the eyes that bring it about. So I'd love to know from your professional expertise, what is it about the eyes? What is it about eye contact? What is it about? Reading the story beneath the eyes.

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Alison: The gaze, right? The gaze of that loving mother. The gaze that takes in the child. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is the research on attachment that shows that secure attachment is presence. It's not words. 

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You know, a parent can say all the right words, but if they are not present, whole body present, calm nervous system present, where we're not in that fight flight, adrenalized state where we are so calm inside and we are with that child, right, through the gaze, through the calmness of the nervous system. That's what creates that attachment. 

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And if we think about God, it's so interesting, I've never thought about this. But of course, that's how we experience the withness of God. It's very rarely through a word.

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Steve Macchia: Yeah. And it's our withness that's our witness, you know. It's when we are with, that we actually have something to say about another. Rowena, you're an expert in this as a young mom, you've got all these kids at your feet and you're constantly giving them complete attention. I don't know how you do it.

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Rowena: Thankfully, being in God's presence is especially helpful. I often think of the imagery that he uses of him being a mother hen and gathering up all the chicks under the safety of his wings. That picture in my mind is so powerful and helpful to me when I feel like maybe there are different parts of myself that are running around little chicks, maybe some of them with their heads cut off or something, and God is like, come on, gather under here and let me put my wings over you.

All the parts of me can be heard and witnessed and attuned to and have the attention and the care that they need. And that kind of feeling of being held is really powerful, held under his wings. That sense of care for my own soul, then, is helping me in real time try to do the same with my kids. Not necessarily needing to fix their emotions, but just being with them and kind of gathering them and saying, I'm here with you, it's going to be alright. 

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And then the other sort of imagery that comes to mind with spiritual direction is this phrase, “being a physician of the soul”. There's this wonderful quote: “What does a physician do when someone comes with a bleeding wound? Three things; he or she cleanses the wound, aligns the sundered parts, and gives it rest”. 

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That's all the physician does. He or she provides an environment for the natural process of healing to occur. And so I think in spiritual direction and doing the training, it’s just such a helpful reminder that God made our bodies to heal. And he also made our souls to heal. If we can remove some of the obstacles and the barriers, the natural course of healing will occur. 

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And that has been so real in my own life. I find it incredibly powerful to witness other people in that way and know that I am not the physician who's actually doing the healing. But God designed us to heal if we just come into his presence and can attune to different parts of ourselves and then he can let the natural course of healing take its place.

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Alison: It reminds me of that acorn, right? So much of what you're both saying is the acorn, or any sort of seed, is designed to burst forth and become the beautiful thing that it's supposed to become. Our job is to provide the right soil, remove the weeds of distraction (which is so often the noise and the advice and the agendas), and cultivate that soil so that seed can grow. 

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Prior to my experience with this kind of thing, I would be in my prayer closet thinking, okay, I'll be with God. And somehow that needs to only be between me and God. And what spiritual direction or these spiritual listening communities do is bring it into relationships. You are with another person. 

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For the listener, typical spiritual direction is a monthly rhythm. You meet with someone typically, not always, but typically once a month. It is a practice. There's a rhythm to it. And that rhythm–there's a withness with that. It's saying, “I need another human body that is not trying to fix me, is not doing therapy on me per se, but is with me and bearing witness to me in my process of becoming”. So there is a witness, it's just a unique kind of witness.

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Steve Macchia: Exactly. And it is an important practice to be trained in. Not everyone is fit for this. So we need to understand that they may be more fit to be in more of an active discipling role or pastoral role. 

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All the old ancient monastic communities that were providing this for people that were coming to them–sort of like, “Brother, give us a word”, kind of thing–they were trained to be, as Row said, soul doctors. In fact, I will often ask my directees, “So how is it with your soul today?” as an opening question. Or we'll sit and just do Lexio for a few moments in a particular verse or a psalm or something that's just to quiet our hearts and minds. And it's generally where I see men one-on-one–I see men and women in groups–but when I'm sitting with another man and we're sitting in quiet, which they're not used to, you know, just quietness. 

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There's a little uncomfortableness to that. And then I'm reading the passage of Scripture, and then I'm saying you can break the silence however and whenever you want to. Generally, they're surprised what they say after the silence because they came in with a particular thought or concept or idea or relationship or question or issue that they're wrestling with. But in the silence, when we're together in the word and in prayer, they can often end up going in a different direction that may actually be more fruitful for their life, their walk with God. 

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Because we wanna always be pointing people back to the biblical text or their walk with God or the state of their soul, so that it becomes a prayerful, reflective space that both director and directee are engaged in. And as the director, you're not doing much direction, even though it's called that. It's really providing space for this person to give voice to their experiences, their experience of God or their experience with others. 

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So it's out of that experience, it's out of that place of need, where we're able to step in as active listeners, and hopefully have some spiritual maturity to us that we can actually be a voice in the wilderness for them that allows us to offer a word of hope or a word of comfort or a suggestion to sit in a particular passage of scripture or whatever. So it's a beautiful thing when it's fully embraced and not distorted, it is really a beautiful space to create for another.

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*Music*

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Steve Macchia: One of the questions that I've been wrestling with of late is all the issues of the day, not just of a particular person's story, but whether it's political or human sexuality and how that's really been front and center for so many racial, ethnic issues. One of the things that spiritual direction gives a person is a voice to how they're reacting or responding to those issues. 

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It's not just necessarily a personal issue that you're coming with, it may be a lament that you're coming with or a heart's concern for a loved one that's gone a wayward way in any one of particular areas. So what a person comes into a direction session with is all over the map.

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It's not just your prayer life. It can be a tough relationship, it can be a tough issue of the day. I like defining passion as that which exists somewhere between what brings a tear to your eye and an angry fist to the air. Somewhere in there, between the tearfulness and the angry fist, resides your passions. 

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So we can create space where people get in touch with what they're passionate about, what they're interested in, what they're concerned about, what they're carrying, it could be personal, but it could be more corporate or collective. 

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So I think that's what I just wanted to mention. It's not just that we're talking about, you know, a person's time in the Bible and praying. Spiritual direction can be misunderstood that way. No, it's actually pretty broad. It's like counseling, like therapy in that way. You can't predict what the issues are going to be that are gonna enter the space with the person who's gonna give voice to where they are or where they're at.

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Alison: You're reminding me of a quote that my spiritual director said to me recently, which I believe is attributed to either Richard Rohr or I want to say Paula DRC. “God shows up disguised as your life.”

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Whatever is happening in your life is where God is. When you go to someone for a spiritual direction, it's not just limited to your “spirit”. There's no bifurcation–whatever is happening in your life is where God has an invitation for you. It doesn't matter where that is. Your God shows up disguised as your life. 

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That's a really helpful word because sometimes I'll think, “I gotta think about my spiritual questions for my spiritual director, you know, what am I thinking about God”? As opposed to, “Whatever's happening in my life, in my soul, whatever I'm worried about, that's where God is. That's what God cares about. That's where there's an invitation for me”. 

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I'm curious, Rowena, you've now entered into training to become a spiritual director. What prompted that and how is that going for you? And I've noticed just being your friend, I'm not surprised when you told me that you were going to embark on a journey of becoming a spiritual director. I see those qualities in you, that ability to hold space so subtly, but so powerfully for other people. Tell me a little bit about that journey for you and what that decision was like.

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Rowena: Hmm. I think when I read the quote about being a physician of the soul around 10 years ago, something really resonated with what I felt called to do. That would just be a very powerful way to spend my life. I can't quite describe it, but it was a very deep feeling of being drawn to this.

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I think it's also because I experienced the power of it–of being attuned to and of being deeply listened to–that it's just such a needed thing in this world. And I want to grow in that ability to listen and hold space for others and help them attune to their own souls and to God. 

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So I don't think I chose it myself. I think somehow God put that desire and that longing in me, and in listening to my own soul, that became apparent. And it was just a matter of waiting for the right timing for my family. So it's really exciting to finally be beginning and to start meeting with directees and just to feel the “rightness”, like, “Oh yeah, this feels like this is something I'm meant to do”.

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Alison: How do you find, and Steve touched on this, but how do you find pockets of the kind of quiet that we're talking about, that we so desperately need? You are parenting four really young kids, so your life is probably far from a quiet, contemplative life. I think a lot of our listeners will think,
“Gosh, that would be nice, but where do I find that?” How do you find those rhythms in your own life?

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Rowena: Hmm. Yeah, I have a real need, I think, in my mind and my body. My mind is very active with lots of thoughts. And so it often feels like a snow globe shaken up. And it's like the silence is kind of what helps everything kind of settle and then there can be calm and clarity within. And I just know that about my inner being. 

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I need a babysitter at least twice a week for a couple of hours so I can have a little bit of time to attune to myself so that I can show up as kind of that more clear snow globe rather than being shaken up all the time. It's really easy to live in this world in that constant state and I just can't function there permanently so I need it and I have to carve it out. 

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So for me, that is during nap time or yeah, intentionally kind of carving out some hours with a babysitter just so I can go for a bike ride and read a book and journal. And yeah, it's just really vital for me in this season.

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Alison: I love that. Yeah, it is very much whatever the season, because it's true, even when you have more time, there is always something you can do to drown out the quiet. There's always something. We can turn the radios on in our car, we can have a podcast on all the time, we can be on social media. And it is a discipline. 

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One of the things I know I did when I was in that driving phase of parenting, where you're in the car all the time shuttling kids to and fro several hours a day sometimes, is I would start a practice (after this whole Emmaus experience where I began to realize that quiet is our friend) of not turning anything on while I was in the car. 

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It's not necessarily optimal, but it was an amazing difference in my life. No radio, no podcast. Just sitting in the quiet for at least as long as that car ride. It gave me that moment of just noticing what was in my own mind, what was in my own soul, just attuning to myself.

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Steve Macchia: And what I hear in that is the discipline of Sabbath. And Sabbath is really foundational to the deeper life. Without Sabbath, you won't go deep, period, end of story. 

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It is commanded and invited by God. It's not something that's just in the Old Testament. It's something that Jesus came to fulfill in the use of Sabbath because all of the religious leaders, the Pharisees, had really made rules and regulations around Sabbath and basically nearly destroyed Sabbath by over-regulating it. And Jesus came to set them free from that which was bringing them down and into bondage. 

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Even within the text and the Ten Commandments, you know, there's that reminder that we're to remember that we were once enslaved. but we are now set free. And being set free is to be in Sabbath practices on a weekly basis, but also Sabbath moments on a daily basis or a day by day basis. 

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So when you, Alison, say that you turned the radio off as you were driving kids around, that's a Sabbath, that's a choice towards Sabbath. Or Rowena, when you say you're gonna get a babysitter and just take a couple hours or take a bike ride. That's the craving within us that exists universally for some space. 

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And when we don't want it, it's because we've chosen distraction as our main drug of choice to drown out that which we need to wrestle with in the silence. And that's why silence and solitude has often been described as the crucible of transformation. It's the place where the deepest work occurs. And if we choose not to be in those Sabbath, quiet, restful moments in our life, we'll end up living the entirety of our life, inch deep and mile wide. 

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So Sabbath and Sabbath practices, it's one of the things I'm trying to awaken within the pastoral world that I connect with because pastors will tell me over and over again, Sabbath is impossible, or that Sabbath is only possible when it's not a work day. No, you need Sabbath. Every soul needs Sabbath. God knew what he was talking about.

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It's the only commandment that was applicable to him because he chose to do Sabbath himself. So we listen for that in spiritual direction. We listen for the soul that's troubled or the soul that's distracted or the soul that is constantly in need of noise or motion. 

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And when we create space as a spiritual director to just quiet ourselves, to be more attentive, more reflective, it's basically introducing a Sabbath-like experience for a person to say yes to that invitation within us, to get to know God at a deeper level, rather than running ourselves ragged, letting this world define who we are and what we're becoming.

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Alison: I love that. And I would add if you're someone who's listening who finds it very challenging to sit in quiet as a result of so much pain inside–trauma is something that can surface in silence. It's nothing to feel shame about. 

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And that's one of the areas where I would say therapy becomes that place of Sabbath where you're with someone who can help you begin to pace yourself as you work through a lot of the noise in your soul that has built up over time as a result of trauma, as a result of no one attuning to you. That's where a therapist can help you pace that so that you can arrive at this place where your nervous system understands, “Oh, I can be quiet with myself and that feels okay”. 

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So that's another way where those two areas I think can work together. I know for me early on, sitting quietly, before I even arrived at Emmaus, I tell the story of having a series of panic attacks at the end of graduate school, and being in the quiet during that time would have been too much. 

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I needed people, I needed bodies, to help me understand what was happening. And as I healed that, then I brought in spiritual direction as a much needed reminder of, “This is what it feels like. I can take deep breaths. I can be with myself”. 

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It's just such a valuable practice that I've kept in my life since meeting you, Steve and Rowena. I would love to close by asking both of you, what would you encourage our listeners to take as next steps if they're listening and going, “I long for that. I long for what they're describing”. What are some next steps people can take? I have some ideas, but I'd love to hear from both of you.

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Steve Macchia: Well, my obvious answer would be to connect with us at leadershiptransformations.org. There are resources, there are workshops, there are programs and opportunities for you to at least get a handle on what is spiritual direction and what does it look like and how do I find a spiritual director? 

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Because I would say, Alison, that anyone in Christian leadership needs to have a spiritual director. Now, I would say that across the board, because there's something about the objective voice in one's life, helping you listen and attend to the voice of God. And if you don't have that in a spiritual friendship or spiritual director role, you're missing out on something that will take you to a deeper place. 

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And I wanna say too, on the comment you just made, ethically for me as a spiritual director, if a person is sharing stuff that really belongs in the counselor's office, I must and will refer that person because I don't want to take on things that I can't handle. 

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And if it's an issue that you can handle as a therapist better, it is incumbent upon me to make sure that person that's come to see me gets better care by a trained therapist or trained counselor. So if we can work cooperatively between the areas of people care, the better off we'll always be. 

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It's sort of like an ethical commitment that we as spiritual directors need to make. If they need a counselor, we find the best counselor for them to deal with their issues in a more therapeutic way. But I think steps to take would be to invite a friend to be a spiritual friend. Invite a person into your life that you know and love and trust. And just say, Can we get together and just kind of talk soul stuff together? It's like, what are we noticing about God or not God? You know, is there an absence of God or a presence of God? And let's just start having conversations. And maybe we could practice healthy listening to each other and not fix or correct or change or one up each other. And just through a simple relationship, let's see where that grows. So that would be one way to just get it started.

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Rowena: I think Alice Freiling's book, Seeking God Together is an incredible resource if you're interested in doing this with a couple of friends. To gather those friends together and to read that book, it gives some extremely practical tips for how to set up group spiritual direction time and questions you can ask each other and it helps establish the boundaries for that group setting. So I have done that in the past and that has been really, really profound to practice with other friends. That was before beginning SELAH. So that's another step that people can take.

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Alison: I would make a plug for your book, Steve, Crafting a Rule of Life is a fantastic book I recommend to people. And we haven't talked too deeply about this, but this idea of a rule of life is very little about a rule and more about rhythms of these spiritual practices. It's a really deep and practical book on how to create these rhythms in your life, kind of like Rowena and I were talking about. 

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It could be as simple as “I don't listen to music in the car”. That's a rhythm for me that helps me. Or “I get a babysitter for my kids every two weeks” all the way to “I meet with a spiritual director once a month”. Or it's just a really great introduction to this idea of having these rhythms of quiet, having these rhythms of attuning to the contents of your soul.

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Steve Macchia: Thank you.

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Alison: Is there anything else that either of you would like to see? And then I want to give our listeners a chance to learn about where they can find you both. 

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Rowena: I just keep thinking of the verse from Ephesians where it says, “I pray out of his glorious riches, he will strengthen you through the spirit in your inner being with power, so that Christ can dwell in your hearts through faith.”

And I think that's kind of the essence of spiritual direction. What it can do is be a place where God can strengthen our inner beings with power through the Spirit and enable us to live in the world from a richer, fuller place where we can really inhabit our lives alive, present, awake, embodied, in the here and now, not stuck. 

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Or that's one place where we can work through places in life we are stuck, but it can be a place where God can bring a lot of freedom within ourselves. That's just what I feel like God keeps sharing with me is “I want you to be free within yourself”. 

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And I want all of my children to be free within themselves and to have everything stripped away that is entangling and enslaving and distracting and to find that rest inwardly and that freedom. And so that's, I think, the taste that I want listeners to get from what spiritual direction can offer. It’s the way to get free within yourself, unencumbered by things that are weighing you down and being able to emerge in life as your full self empowered by God. And that is a beautiful thing.

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Alison: I love the way you're both describing this rest that is so much deeper than taking a nap, which is also important, but just this inner rest, where no matter what's going on in your outer life, there's an inner ability to find that calm. Being at peace with yourself, being at peace with God–that is the freedom that I believe God wants all of us to have. I love that, Rowena.

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Steve Macchia: And I would add that Psalm 62 verse 1A could be a breath prayer for a person to just embrace, and it's very simply my soul finds rest in God alone. It doesn't come in any other place. It only comes in God. So learning how to rest in God is really learning how to trust God. Trust and rest go hand in glove. The more I rest in God, the deeper I trust Him. The more I trust God, the more I'm able to rest in Him. 

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We often use the word trust and rest rather flippantly, but to really take those words and have them be a part of our true identity as men and women of God, that we wanna learn how to trust, we wanna learn how to rest. And when we rest, we trust, when we trust, we rest. And it's out of that trust and rest that we find peace and joy in our relationships and in our service, in the communities that God has placed us in. 

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And finally, just to say, you know, by doing this, by finding a spiritual director, by taking care of your soul, it's not selfish to do so. It's actually good, solid self-care by which you become more fit to serve another. So when you're in a healthier place, when you're in a better space, when you have greater clarity about who God is and who you are, you can present yourself to the wider world with a far better way of serving another. 

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Otherwise we are going to be that manipulative presence that constantly is wanting to push or pull a person according to our interests or desires. And I have that problem. I'm a controller. I like to know, I like my family to know what I think about their decisions. I like to tell Ruth what she needs to do, and I got to stop constantly because that's not what they want. That's not what they need. They need my presence. They need my love. They need my affection. They need a more secure me to be present with them so that I can love them more impactfully out of a genuine heart for them. And I think that's with all of us. 

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We're all selfish, we're all kind of into our own ways. But if we really want to be a servant for another, it needs to come from that genuine, deep trust and rest in God that I'm not here to prove anything, I'm here to offer myself as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God and to others. And that takes time to strip that false self away in order to mine the deeper places that really matter the most.

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Alison: Mm. I love that. I love being with you both. I feel the presence from both of you and have been so blessed and honored by your impact, both of you in my life, to help me learn what that means. And I'm just so grateful. 

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Thank you for your time today. I would love for our listeners to know where they can find you and where they can get a hold of you if they're interested in learning more.

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Steve Macchia: Very simply for me, it's leadershiptransformations.org for the organization and stevemacchia.com for the books and things that I've created over the years. So leadershiptransformations.org is the go-to place.

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Alison: And I can't recommend more the different workshops and different options that you provide for people to learn about this way of being with yourself, with God, and with other people. And what about you, Rowena? Are you going to be taking new directee clients?

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Rowena: I am open to it. Right now, I can't really be found anywhere on social media. I just sort of realized that at this time in my life, I can't invest much time in those platforms, but I am interested in taking some directees, just a few. And so, yeah, if there's anyone who lives in the Washington DC area and would like to do it in person or I am also available over Zoom. We could connect.

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Alison: Email me, how about that, if you're interested. I first of all love, I think both Steve and I are nodding our heads here, like, and wanting to honor and validate your choices to keep certain clutter out of your life. I mean, that right there is evidence of your own rhythms, right? This isn't a rhythm that I can have right now as to be available publicly.

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And I know I've gone through seasons like that myself and want to honor that, I can also attest to the fact that you'd be a wonderful person for anyone who would like to get started with spiritual direction. 

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You can email me on my website, dralisoncook.com, and we'll get you hooked up. I also believe through SELAH, Steve, your spiritual direction training program, there are, is there a search engine where people can find spiritual directors through the Leadership Transformation website?

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Steve Macchia: Yes, it's just it's SELAH, S-E-L-A-H, which is the word that's used in the Psalms for pausing between various verses. So it's got a great meaning, the word SELAH itself. So when you go to LeadershipTransformations.org, you just do /SELAH or go into the search icon and put SELAH in our spiritual direction. And there's also a listing there of spiritual directors that have been trained by us that are all over the country, different parts of the world.

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Our SELAH program continues to multiply. We've got SELAH East on the East Coast, SELAH West in Arizona, SELAH Europe in Scotland and SELAH Anglican in North Carolina for the North American Anglican church. So it continues to grow, God continues to bless. If you're at all interested in that program, you should apply early and just make your interest known.

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Alison: Beautiful. I love it. Well, thank you both for all the goodness you are bringing into this world full of noise. Just the beautiful presence that speaks so powerfully. I'm so grateful for both of you.

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Steve Macchia: We're grateful for you too, Alison.

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Rowena: Yeah same.

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Steve Macchia: Kudos to you for all the wonderful writing and speaking and podcasts and blogs and all the rest. Keep up the good work, okay?

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Alison: Thank you. Likewise.

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*Outro*

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Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode, and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there. I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you, back here, next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

Today we're trying something new! We've gathered up your most-asked questions about friendship and discuss them on the podcast. These are such thoughtful and real questions, and I love thinking through them with you.

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Here's what we cover:

1. The mother wound and female friendships

2. Managing expectations through your own healing season

3. Assessing trust in a new friend

4. Navigating a terminal diagnosis with friends

5. What about helping others who can't reciprocate friendship

Do you have questions about friendship for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

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Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Go to www.simplemodern.com/bestofyou and by sharing your email, you'll get a unique discount code just for you.
• Get 35% off your first order of Sundays. Go to SundaysForDogs.com/BESTOFYOU or use code BESTOFYOU at checkout.

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Resources

• Learn scripts and tips for testing new friendships in The Best of You, by Dr. Alison Cook
• Resources for support

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‍Related Podcast Episodes:

• Episode 58: How to Find Friends Who Bring out the Best of You, Why it Matters, and How a Good Friend Can Transform Your Life with Dr. Curt Thompson, Amy Cella, and Pepper Sweeney
• Episode 59: Finding Your People, Overcoming Past Hurt, & Deepening Friendships Through Intentional Community with Jennie Allen
• Episode 60: How to Make New Friends, Overcome People Pleasing, Identify Red and Green Flags, & Extract Yourself From an Unhealthy Situation with Aundi Kolber and Dr. Monique Gadson
• Episode 61: Reconnecting With Old Friends—Healing the Past, Naming Regret & Bringing Your Whole Self into the Future

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast. I am so excited for this last episode, in this series we've been doing called Friends on Friendship. And today I wanted to take this last episode to respond to your questions. You all have been writing in, with so many great questions, and I really wanted to use this time to respond to some of your practical questions. How you're applying some of what we've been talking about in your real lives. 

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And, so, to help me with this, I've asked my media coordinator, Cindy Gao. Who has been assisting me with this podcast these last few months, to come on and join me as we address some of your questions about friendship. Cindy has been such a gift. She's a recent graduate of Harvard College. She reached out to me last fall with an amazing story. Which she's going to come back on the podcast to share with us in a few weeks, so stay tuned for that. 

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But in the meantime, she's been coming alongside me. Helping me out in many ways as we put this podcast together. It's been a huge godsend for me. As I've talked about on the podcast before, it's hard for me to ask for help and having her help has been just a gift. And, so, today she's going to be a conversation partner with me. Queuing up some of your questions and joining me in this conversation, as we talk about how to create healthy friendships in our lives.

So, Cindy, thank you for joining me today on the podcast. I'm so glad you're here, and I've so enjoyed having you as a conversation partner behind the scenes, and now here on the podcast.

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Cindy: Yes, I'm so glad to be here. I've followed your podcast since the very beginning, and now it's so exciting for me to come on with you.

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Alison: Yes. So in January, I hosted a book club for The Best of You, and Cindy would come on and help me do these weekly Facebook lives. Where you would queue up questions for me, and I would answer them, and we'd have a little back and forth. And I realized, "Oh, gosh, what a great way to respond to questions." Just makes it a little bit more structured for me. And Cindy's also got some great thoughts coming from a really different perspective, a different generation, different view of some of these questions. 

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So, with that in mind, I hope you will enjoy this special and final episode, Friends on Friendship, where we answer your questions.

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< Music >

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Cindy: The first question that we can dive into, today, is from Amy. She asks, "How do I heal this deep wound from my relationship with my mother. So I can have a healthy friendship with women? How do I spot the signs sooner and avoid getting tangled in narcissistic relationships?"

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Alison: Oh, that's a good question. Yes, the mother wound is what I hear in that. So how do our wounds from our parents and, particularly, when we're talking about female friendships. How do our mother wounds influence our friendships with other women? 

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So, Amy, what I would say is, first of all, your awareness, that the fact that your relationship with your mom is influencing your female friendships is really astute and just such good awareness. So, of course, always, that awareness is the first step to begin to ask yourself. If you're struggling in your friendships, what's going on here? "What am I bringing?"

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"What baggage am I bringing into these relationships?"

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"What messages are floating or lurking in the back of my mind, as I engage my female friends?" And that awareness is so important. And I would say the next step is to begin to pay attention to what are some of those messages? What are some of those beliefs or thoughts that linger in the back of your mind, as you're approaching a female friendship? 

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So, for example, let's say you've got a friend, and you love this friend, and you enjoy this friend. But maybe you're aware that in the back of your mind, you're always wondering, "When are they going to leave me?"

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"When are they going to disappoint me?"

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"Are they really trustworthy? Can I really trust that they're there for me?" Whatever it is, begin to notice what is that static in the airwaves, a little bit? You got to get specific about it, and it gets back to that parts work that we talked about. Back in that whole series on boundaries for your soul. Where we talked about we have parts of us. 

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There are parts of us that we bring from our past and, especially, from those past relationships with those primary caregivers that have picked up burdens. Often those burdens from those childhood wounds have messages such as, "I've got to be hyper vigilant. I've got to make sure this person is okay." 

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It makes it hard for us to receive care from other people, if you didn't receive care from a primary caregiver. So that would manifest as hyper vigilance. It's hard for you to relax into the possibility that a friend could truly show up for you. Or that part of you might carry a burden such as "This person could never really accept the real me."

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"I've got to always keep a guard up."

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"I've got to always be performing, producing, pleasing, perfecting for them."

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 Because that part of you learned, at a young age, through the conditioning you received from a parent, maybe, from your mom, that you could never really be yourself. You could never really be seen as you are. And, so, that part of you learned to always be showing up in that perfecting, performing, pleasing way, and you've carried that into these adult friendships.

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So begin, first of all, to do this process, that we've talked about so many times on this podcast, called differentiating. As you begin to notice that part of you and the messages or the beliefs it holds. See if you can get a little distance from it. And, maybe, even when you're with a friend you're noticing. You're with that friend, but you're present to the part of you that is wanting to keep you hyper vigilant, keep you performing, keep you on your toes, and it doesn't allow you to really sink into the fullness of a reciprocal relationship with that person. 

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How old is that part of you?

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What are the messages it picked up? 

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What is it telling you? 

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You first got to differentiate that part of you to begin to understand what is coming from the past and what is actually coming from this current friend, oftentimes, they're very different. Cindy, as I talk about that, what comes to mind for you and your experience?

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Cindy: Yes, that was really helpful. The first thing that I think about from this question is, also, that this is a pretty deep question. And that connection from how we related in our families growing up, and how that affects the way we move out into the world and our relationships with friends and everyone is so real. 

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And I would just add that part of the healing process is being willing to take a little bit of risk. For me, in my relationship with my mom, I guess, I never felt safe bringing up things that I was upset about because that would just escalate into so much conflict. 

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And, so, that's the way that I approached all my relationships, including with friends. And after a while I realized that I was feeling really disconnected from them. And I had to take a risk, eventually, and bring something up that I was afraid of. Because I had to experience something different in order to actually move forward. 

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I can hear all the time. You can talk to your friends and they'll be there for you, if they're good friends, and I can know that as a fact. But until I actually take a risk and experience it, I don't know. The experiences with my mom were more impactful on my moving out into the world, than any facts I might know about what a good friend looks like.

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Alison: Exactly, yes, that conditioning. That subconscious conditioning. I love what you're describing, it's a corrective experience. You have to take the risk to say to a friend, and here's the thing there's a couple of ways you can do it. 

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You can even name to someone you actually think you can trust, but you notice it's hard. You can even name, "Hey, this is hard for me, but I want to share with you something I'm struggling with. This is new for me, it's something I'm trying." And then notice how they respond and, then, simultaneously, let the part of you know, that had this other experience with your mom, "See what's happening here this is different. 

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This is what it feels like when someone just witnesses you. When someone just listens, and is there for you, and shows up for you, and it doesn't escalate, and it feels good." And you really notice what does that feel like in your nervous system to receive that, and it becomes a corrective experience. You're training yourself that this is what it can feel like. When you take that risk and someone really shows up for you, and you've had some of those. Is that right?

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Cindy: Yes, and it is really scary, so being patient with yourself, too. I love what Aundi Kolber always says of pacing yourself and being gentle with yourself. Because all of these corrective experiences can feel really activating and scary.

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Alison: Yes. I love that you say that because you're out of your comfort zone. You're trying something new and, sometimes, you'll take a risk, you'll be vulnerable. You'll give a friend a shot to show up for you. And even when it goes well afterward, it can feel really upside down to your system. Really uncomfortable, like "I did something wrong."

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And, so, just to sit with that for a minute. I like to think about it as putting little breadcrumbs out. Okay, "I put that breadcrumb out, someone picked it up, it felt pretty good." And then maybe try it again, and just give your system time to adjust to this different way of receiving care. I love that.

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Cindy: Yes.

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< Music >

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Cindy: So, moving on to the next question, this one's from T. T says, "I find myself struggling to maintain friendships because I'm so tired, busy, and overwhelmed with every other area of my life. That I don't have the energy to put into friendships. 

Making and keeping friends takes a lot of energy out of me, and I feel like I just don't have what it takes to keep meaningful relationships. But, then, I also feel let down when I stop putting in the effort. What would you say to situations like this?"

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Alison: Yes, that's real, and I bet a lot of people relate to that. I do, too. Yes, it's time consuming. Different friends have different capacities. I might have a certain capacity. Someone else might have a certain capacity. So you're always trying to balance that out. You're trying to figure out the rhythm of a friendship. And I would say, Cindy, I can see you nodding, tell me a little bit about your experience with that.

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Cindy: Yes, well, I guess the first thing that I think about is how frustrating it is to have limitations, just our desires have no limitations. But our ability actually to do things, we are very limited and it's very frustrating. 

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I mean, I can feel really guilty and struggle with self-criticism if I'm just really tired and can't do things that I want to do. Especially with friendships and relationships that, kind of, I just dropped the ball on. Because I'm in a period of life where I just feel like there's so much going on, and I feel like just getting through the day is taking everything out of me. I've been there before and I can relate to this question a lot.

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Alison: Yes, a couple of thoughts that I have. I feel this, too, I think it's true for all of us, different seasons of life. Sometimes we go through seasons where we have a lot of bandwidth for investing in friendship, and sometimes we have less. 

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A couple of things I would say is, number one, you've got your trusted friends, people who are already safe. I think naming is really helpful and I've had to do a lot of that, and say, "Man, this is a season for me where I'm not as available on the day to day, but I would love quality." And, so, for me, structure has been so helpful during busy seasons to just set those expectations. 

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So, for me, what can be helpful is, "Let's do a monthly check in where we're going to go deep. But I may not be so great at the day to day, just back and forth because that's hard for me." So that's one way I've learned to balance during busy seasons. Is just to name that with folks; "Here's what I can do. Here's what I can't. I'm not going to be that daily text buddy because I just don't have the bandwidth for that. But I'd love a monthly walk and talk on the phone." So that's one way. It's just to structure it, name it, and talk it through with a friend, maybe a friend. 

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And number two is you've got to figure out how to coordinate it with friends who might want more or who might want less. And if it's a healthy friendship, you can have that conversation. You can do it. You can say, "Hey, listen this is what I can do. What do you want?" And then you negotiate it, "Here's where we can keep in touch." I'm a big fan of structure and just naming. Just because someone else wants a certain way of interacting. 

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Someone else wants to be able to be on the phone every day or be texting all the time, doesn't mean you have to be that way. And it also doesn't mean it has to be the end of the friendship. It means you have to have a conversation. 

The other thing is that research I mentioned last week, that I think is so interesting. That talks about we do have limited capacity for friendships. We have the capacity to sustain around five intimate friends. That's not that many, if you think about it. 

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And, so, you have to really be intentional and think about who are those people that even when I have a lot on my plate, I'm going to invest in. And if I know, in my mind, who they are and I've pre-committed to those people. I'll do the work to make sure that those ones stay intact, and the other folks I can care about.

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When you get out to that outer layer of the 15 to the 20. Where you really care about them but you don't have as much to invest, you really have to let your actions speak. You may not respond to every email or every text. It doesn't mean you don't care about them. What I do with folks is I may not respond to every text but I know, in my mind, I'm going to respond about once a week.

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Cindy: Part of it is there's a fear of disappointing people or disappointing friends. And that research you mentioned of, "Hey, we're not built to have 100 close friends." And, yet, many of us might feel the pressure to have these really huge best friend groups.

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Alison: And I think social media has contributed to that. Where there's this illusion of in-touchiness, where we can be in touch with a whole lot of people. But as we've discussed in this podcast, that's not really what I'm encouraging you toward, which are these deep intentional friendships. And I don't know that all people understand that. Different people have different ideas about what a friend is.

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I just want to acknowledge that it's okay if you are someone who says I need a couple of deep friendships. Where we have a few conversations, maybe, one or two deep conversations a week, and I don't do a lot of that extra stuff, that's okay. You don't need to feel guilty about that. I do agree. I think there's pressure in our world to be constantly in touch with people, and if that works for you. 

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Again, some people are more extroverted than others, there's a way in which that's fine. But if that's not you to really go into your own self with God and determine, "What do I need? What kind of friendship do I need and how do I thrive in friendship?" Name that for yourself, define that for yourself. Get really clear about that and it gets back to what I talked about in The Best of You. It's, "What am I saying yes to?" 

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So don't think so much about all the things you're saying no to because that's where the guilt comes in. Start with "What am I saying yes to?" I am saying yes to these couple of folks during this season. Where I meet with them once a week, maybe, it's a small group. Or I take a walk once a week with this person, or I have a phone call, once a month, with this group of folks. Whatever it is, get really clear about what you're saying yes to. 

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And, then, those nos, the things you don't have bandwidth for. You'll feel a little bit of guilt at first, but remind yourself, "This is what I'm saying yes to." This is how I become a better human, a better parent if you have kids. 

A better wife, if you're married, a better friend, a better worker, a better colleague. And it doesn't mean I don't care about these other people. I can care about them. I can lift them in prayer. I can check in as I am able, but I only have so much capacity. This is just science. This is just psychology, "I only have so much capacity. I am not God."

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Sometimes you can remind yourself, "I am a limited human with finite capacity. I can invest in this many folks and I am not God, and I have to let the rest go." And people who are healthy will understand that and they will be there for you, on the other side. People who get angry about that, people who are mad at you about that. Is it really your job to keep those people happy so they're not mad at you? No, it's not. You got to let that go and it's hard. 

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But this is a muscle you have to develop, this no muscle. I only have this much capacity and everything else is not my responsibility, and I got to let it go. And I'm not responsible for all of those folks, who want more of me than I can give. And this gets back, again, into those childhood wounds. Where we've been conditioned, we got to be all things to all people and that is just a lie. It is just not true. It is not your job. 

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So take that time, get really clear about the yeses, "These are the folks I'm going to invest in."

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"These are the folks I will give time to."

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"This is how much time I have to give."

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"This is my optimal capacity." And then you got to let the rest go, and you got to hold your hands open and give those folks up to God. You are not being mean. You are not being cruel. You are releasing other people to live out their best lives with other folks. That's what you can do before God.

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Cindy: Yes, that's so good. One more thing I would add is, I really like what you said about in different seasons we have different capacities. And, so, if you're finding yourself in a period of time where you're just really exhausted and tired. And I would say that, I mean, for me, when I really started doing a lot of therapy, and self-reflection, and this deep work of getting to know myself, and revisiting past wounds. 

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That work is really tiring and it takes a lot out of you. And, at the same time, it's so healing and good. But it's also extremely tiring, and it can be really hard to then have energy to socialize in the way that you used to. And your lifestyle might change and you might find yourself more lonely at times. 

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But, I think, clinging on to the hope that it's not always going to be like that. You're not always going to feel completely drained. And, yes, the metaphor of a cocoon is pretty good. In this period of time, I'm growing so much, but I'm in my own little, healing, bubble, I don't know. But, eventually, I'm going to grow out of my cocoon and move out into the world, in a new way. In a way that is going to be so much more life-giving to me. 

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But being patient with the process, and trying to release that guilt and self-criticism maybe about, "Oh, I'm not socializing as much as I used to."

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"I'm not being everything to everyone like I used to because I'm saying yes to myself now." And that's so good, but it can induce a lot of guilt.

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Alison: And I would take it one step further. You're becoming a good friend to yourself, and that should be at the top of everybody's list. It's, "How do I be a good friend to myself first because I'm not going to be a good friend to anybody else if I'm not, first, being a good friend to myself. I need time with myself. I need time to discern. We're undoing. We're unlearning some of this old conditioning." And it's very countercultural. 

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There's so much pressure both from the secular culture, from the Christian culture, from the social media culture. More and more is always better from all different angles. And I would say very much, I agree with you, Cindy, both in my own life and in my practice, I see it with my clients. Drawing inward, slowing things down, getting smaller, it can feel foreign. It can feel lonely. 

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But you learn how to be a good friend to yourself, and it is the best place from which to pull in those deep, meaningful, reciprocal, life-giving, life-changing friendships with other people. I want to add to that these seasons of life, it can happen when you first get married. When you first have children. 

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I've seen this throughout, at every season of life where you're adding in relationships takes more bandwidth, takes more capacity. We need these pauses. And, again, we don't do this in our culture. We don't take the pause to go, "Oh, this is a new season, I've just changed my responsibility."

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Even taking on a new job, "I need to take a minute to pull back, to pay attention to my capacity, to realign, where I'm giving out, where I'm taking in." So it's so important with each season of life. It can happen at empty nest. Where suddenly you find you have more capacity to take a minute. Allow yourself time to adjust in every season of life.

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Cindy: So, moving on to the third question. This one we got various people asking it's about new friendships and initiating new friendships, meeting new people, and navigating that whole process. So the question is, "How do you assess for safety and trust when you're meeting new potential friends?"

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Alison: Yes, this is such a great question. And we're not taught this, which is so fascinating to me. We're taught so many things about, "Be a good friend."

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"Show up for others."

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But we're not taught how to test a new relationship. In fact, oftentimes, we feel bad about that. I think, especially, as Christians, we feel like we're supposed to be loving. 

We're always supposed to show up for others. But it's so important to discern trustworthiness, to discern safety. Especially as an adult and, especially, if you've been hurt. 

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So the first thing I would say is to insert this idea that it's wise to move slowly. It's wise to test a new relationship, to discern safety. We would do this in our dating relationships, that's why we date. You're dating to discern not just fit but health, and safety, and you can do that very strategically.

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Testing doesn't mean you're putting the other person on trial. It's not sitting back and going, "Are you going to be good enough for me?" It's not that. It's a process of discernment. And it's a process, again, of being a good friend to yourself. You're going to show yourself that you are worthy of a healthy friendship. And, so, you're going to take your time to discern trust.

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And, so, the first thing I would do is consider your past patterns. Are you somebody who rushes into a friendship and becomes that listening ear for everybody else. But quickly find that nobody's doing that same for you, these one-way relationships. Are you somebody who constantly feels disappointed by other people? 

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Are you somebody who struggles with setting boundaries in your friendships?

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Are you somebody who struggles with stating your own needs, with being vulnerable?

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As you spoke to a little bit, Cindy, in friendship. So think about your patterns, and then that's what you want to test early on. Very early on, you want to challenge yourself to do something a little bit differently before the stakes are so high, and see what happens. 

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So, for example, if it's really hard for you to share in a friendship, practice early on, challenge yourself. And don't start with your deepest, darkest secret. But I tell the story in The Best of You. Early on, when I was making a new friend; just inviting somebody into my space, that was very vulnerable for me. I was pretty good at going into somebody else's space, and making them feel like a million bucks, and being super affirming and positive for them. 

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But I had to challenge myself, "What would it be like if I invited somebody into my space." Whether it's into my home, oh, that's so vulnerable. For me, that was vulnerable. Or whether it's into a story, maybe, something that's true about my past that's just a little bit vulnerable, and doing it intentionally to notice how do they respond to that?

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Can they meet you there?

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Can they provide that same encouragement for you? Or do they just blow past it, and not notice, and not really care? So you're putting out, again, a little bit of a breadcrumb. Can they take that? 

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Can they see you?

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Cindy: Yes, that's good. I think a lot of what we're trying to find in other people. This ability to trust them and feel safe with them. I think being someone who you can trust, for yourself. Being someone you can trust and feel safe with, is so important. 

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Alison: Yes.

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Cindy: I know that I struggled a lot with trust, previously, and I still do now. But it's gotten a lot better, and it's because I committed to being honest and I really committed to living a life of integrity. And ever since I had that as a value that I knew I wanted to say yes to, I began to notice in other people. In new people that I met, signs of trustworthiness. And I don't really know how to explain it really, specifically, but I just could just feel that.

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I guess one specific scenario, I was in a friend group and people were beginning to hit that slightly gossipy conversation territory. And one of the people in the group just said, pretty casually, "hey, I'm not really comfortable talking about this person behind their back. Can we move on to something else?" And that was like, "Oh, green flag, I love that they just did that."

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But before I knew that I really valued honesty, and integrity, and had that value, I don't think I would have been as drawn to that.

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Alison: Yes, that makes a lot of sense. As we become trustworthy for ourselves, we become attuned to what matters to us, and suddenly we notice, "Oh, I like that. I like what that person did." And, so, we're going to move toward, more seamlessly, folks who will be safe for us.

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Cindy: Yes, and another part of that is, I think, what happens, subconsciously, is if I told white lies or if someone asked me to do something that I didn't want to do, but I still did it and made it seem like I wanted to do it. I would assume that everyone else is treating me like that, too. So if I asked someone to do something for me and they willingly did it. I would still fear that they were just pretending to willingly do it because that's what I was doing to all my friends.

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Alison: That's so good.

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Cindy: But when I started living with integrity, and saying no if I didn't want to and saying yes when I did want to. It really helped me trust that other people were doing that, too.

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Alison: Yes, and you start to discern the more you're aware of your own propensity to do things like that. You do have a little bit more of an accurate radar for where it's happening. I always say that to people, the more health you bring in, the less tolerance you have for unhealthy and toxicity in others. You just notice it much more.

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Cindy: That's so true much more. It just comes so much more quickly. So our inner work, dramatically, impacts our ability to pull in these people. Cindy, when we first connected and we were talking about the possibility of working together. 

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I remember, and it's a little bit different because this is more of a work situation. But this applies to friendships and it applies to any relationship, really. And I remember it felt very important to me that I named that I'm not very good at delegating all the things that I am not very confident in. As someone who has a hard time asking for help, not only from friends, but in my work life. 

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And, for me, it was so helpful to say, "Listen, this is what I'll be good at. This is what I'm going to be struggling with and what I've got a learning curve on, and I just want you to know that." And I want you to know that as you see that you can tell me. You can say, "I just want you to know this." So that you feel free we've named it. There's no surprises. And that, to me, is very freeing, and I'll do that with new friends, too. I'll be like, "Here's what's good, here's what might be hard." And it's on the table and then there's no surprises. 

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And, so, when I find myself doing things that I still do, that can be confusing to people, or if I find myself doing some of those things it's out there. And there's so much freedom inside of me, then, because I know there are no secrets. 

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I'm not trying to pretend that I've got it all together. I'm not trying to pretend I've arrived. I still have a learning curve, here's what it is. If you can accept that about me, if you can embrace that about me, and if I can, likewise, embrace your learning curve, whoever that may be. Whether it's you or someone else, we're going to do pretty well together because it's all on the table. There's nothing hidden, and that is such a freeing way to relate to people.

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Cindy: Yes, I do remember us having that conversation. And it was so helpful for me that you were the first one to name these things, and I felt really nervous. I mean, I really wanted you to like me, but I felt anxious about interacting with you. But when you named that I was able to name it, and once I did, freeing is the word. I just felt a lot calmer after that.

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Alison: It's fascinating just that naming can dissipate. Neither of us had to fix anything for each other. It was just, "Here's what I'm coming in with that makes me feel nervous." And, then, you, "Here is what I'm coming in." And I was like, "Okay, good, it's all out now. It's out on the table." So that is just another great way when you're testing a new relationship, a new friendship. That's another example where you can say to somebody, early on, and you think about dating, there's actually much better templates for dating than there are for friendship. 

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But it's not that dissimilar where you can practice saying, "Listen, I'm new to making friends. Here is what makes me nervous. Here is what I'm anxious about. Here's what I'm good at, here is what I'm not good at. I just want to put this on the table. And if that person cannot meet you there, good to know. You don't want to invest in them and if they can meet you there, wow, that's such a great feeling.

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< Music >

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Cindy: So moving on to our next question from Kim. Kim asks, "One of my close friends was just diagnosed with terminal cancer. How does our friend group help each other with the pain of this hard road?"

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Alison: That's such a tough one, Kim, thank you for writing in. And our hearts and prayers are with you and your friend group, as you go through this together. There's nothing more profound than going through something like that with a group of friends, and it brings out the best of what friendship is all about. And I guess what I would say, number one, is this is something that affects all of you. It's, primarily, affecting your friend, and you're going to be rallying around her. And, also, you are dealing with your own grief as you process the loss of a friend with that friend. 

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So be really gentle with yourselves. I would say a lot of naming, just naming, less fixing, more naming. In the sense of just being very present to whatever it is that you feel. You'll feel there's so many emotions, the whole range of emotions. There can be a lot of joy and a lot of laughter as you reminisce, as you remember, as you name what's been beautiful, and, then, there's a lot of sadness. And those emotions flip very organically and back and forth, and just to be present to all of it.

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It's okay to, at moments, be laughing together and then to just feel the grief together. You'll feel grief at different times, so to just be very flexible. There's this psychological flexibility that is needed in these times that are so poignant. Where they're precious times together. Where you are going to be present to the whole range of human emotions together with this other human.

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The other thing I would say is safeguard it. There's going to be a lot of vulnerability. And, so, this may not be the time to be expanding your friendship network or taking on new challenges. This may be a season to really be present to this process, to this grieving process with this friend and with this friend group. To allow yourself to step into that place. 

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Which means you will have reduced capacity in other areas and to let other people know that, whoever you need to let know that. That "This is where I'm at. This is what I'm giving my attention to. I need to be present to this all of the full range of emotions that it requires." And to really just let yourself be in that process with your friends. 

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It's precious time, it's sacred, it's holy, it's hard, it's also beautiful. And to not deny yourself any of that process on this journey, with your friend. I would also say to not make assumptions about what your friend needs to ask. What do you need? 

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What can we do? And to not project and to not have any expectations or assumptions about what she might need. She may need you to laugh with her. She may need you to be normal with her. She may need you to just do the normal things that she's always done. She may want you to really help her in ways that you haven't anticipated. So just be really open to what she needs and honor that as best you can. 

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The other thing I would say, from my experience in my own family, if there are children involved, is I would as much as possible normalize. We don't really normalize grief in our society and the ups and downs of it. Children are amazing. Sometimes they will be laughing and having fun and just enjoying themselves, and that's normal and great, too. And sometimes they'll get really sad and it'll start to hit them. 

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So there's, again, that psychological flexibility to just be present, especially, if there are kids involved, especially to the immediate family that's grieving. The emotions come out in all sorts of ways. Sometimes there's anger and to be present to that, it takes that agility to support a family that is grieving, that is going through a loss. So, again, just prepare for that as much as possible by reducing your capacity. Because you will be surprised at all the things that will come out and at the flexibility that is required. 

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Cindy: All right, so I think the last question we'll hit on, today, is from Meg. "How do we be friends with someone who is draining but needs friends? Is it unbiblical to leave the social outcast because they're awkward and or don't have the social skills to be a deep friend?"

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Alison: I love this question, and it's so important because we talk a lot about friendships being two-way streets. We need those folks who are pouring into us just as we are pouring into them. You have to have those friends. Again, that research that you need about five, three to five of those two-way friendships. You don't need a lot, but you need a few of those two-way reciprocal friendships. 

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That being said, we all need to have some capacity to love the folks who are hard to love. That is part of following Jesus. And, in my experience, those folks bring me joy in ways that are unparalleled. It's a different kind of thing, and I don't know that I would even call it friendship. I'm also not really comfortable calling it ministry. 

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Because, in my experience, some folks just showing kindness to folks, reaching out to folks who maybe don't know how to engage a deeper conversation or, for whatever reason, stand a little bit more on the edges of our social groups. 

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What I have found is those are some of my favorite people to interact with. And I make it a priority to have a conversation with those folks, and establish a relationship, and a rapport with people who may not have that capacity to invest in me or pour back into me, but I still get something. And I just see that in Jesus, He was always going to the folks on the margins, who didn't fit into mainstream society. And I love that you ask the question. 

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So what I want to say is this all of this gets back to healthy boundaries and capacity. If that's the only thing you're doing. If you're somebody who is compulsively reaching out to all the people who are hurting. All the people who are in need. All the people who are just desperate for your attention, and you take on that messiah complex and it's killing you, and it's draining you. 

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And I've seen people, in my therapy office, who just have that beautiful heart. And I talk about this a lot, the empathy trap where they just are pouring out and then they are just nothing coming in, that is not healthy. That will not work. 

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You have to have those two-way, reciprocal, deep, friendships. And, also, as you are nourishing yourself, as you are filling your own cup, you have more to give to folks. You have more kindness to give to people. And you will find, in that proper balance, that you get something back from those folks, too. You get something back. It's different. It's not the same as that mirroring that withness, but it's just the joy of seeing the image of God in all people. 

And, so, I would say these two things go hand in hand. As you fill up your tank, as you have those deep, life-giving friendships. You have more capacity to show up for folks who maybe don't have the skills to relate socially in those same ways. But who also will just be delighted by those different kinds of interactions.

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Cindy: Yes. I would say, to this question, I think, it's important to look inwards and see where you're at. I don't know if this is the case. But if the question is coming from a place of, "I'm really drained by this person, and I really don't feel like I have the capacity to hang out with this person anymore. Is it unbiblical to leave them?" I mean, I would say that if you're running on empty. It's good to do things that fill you back up before you keep trying to give when you have nothing left to give. 

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We might feel guilty for doing that. We're expecting ourselves to always be pouring out, even if we have nothing left in the tank. And I think it's so good, what you said about we can't just be these people here to help everyone else and lose ourselves in the process.

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Alison: Yes, I would say, actually, the litmus test, so if you are feeling drained because you are pouring so much out to help others, you're probably out of balance. And, so, in my experience, when my own tank is being filled. When I've got those deep friendships in place, I find joy in interacting with folks where there is more of a need on the other end. And, so, that's my litmus test. If it's bringing me joy and I'm delighting in it, then, I know I'm operating from a full tank. 

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But if it's dragging me down, and I'm exhausted, and I'm bitter, and I'm resentful, and I'm like, "I just can't deal with this." That's a cue that something is out of balance. And, so, you may need to step back, for a little while, to get things back into balance where you're getting nourished. Where you're getting those needs met. So there's more overflow for folks who need a little bit of extra from you.

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Cindy: Yes, that's so good. Just the litmus test of if you're feeling joyful versus if you're just building resentment.

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Alison: Yes, resentment-based, guilt-driven love, resentment-driven love is not love. So as we close, think about who are those three to five that you can pull in? Whether from your past. Whether you're going to really commit to making a new friend, to go deeper with, that takes work. That takes time. 

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So you may be listening going, "I need to devote the next six months to finding a friend like that." And, again, using that dating analogy, that will take time. There will be some trial and error, it may not happen overnight. It will happen if you put effort into it. And if that's the season you're in, focus on that, that overflow will come later. 

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And, then, if you've got those few people and you're getting more intentional, as we've talked through this series. About really ensuring you're spending the time needed to bearing witness to each other, to being with each other, then you might begin to notice. How is that overflowing? 

How does that change my capacity to show up for others outside of those friendships? So pay attention to where you are on your friendship journey. It's never too late. You can always begin to make new friends, to pull old friends in closer, and begin to look for the fruit. 

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Where is their joy? Where is their goodness? Where are you feeling life? What is bringing you life? What is bringing out the best of you in these relationships? Move toward those, and I promise you that overflow will come. 

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Well, thank you, everybody, for joining us. Thank you, Cindy, it was so delightful for me to have you here with me, as a conversation partner. Thank you so much for joining me and adding your wisdom. 

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Cindy: I enjoyed being on here with you a lot.

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Alison: We'll do it again. We look forward to hearing more about your story in just a few weeks.

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Cindy: I'm excited.

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< Outro >

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Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode, and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there. I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you, back here, next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

This episode is so special to me. I sit down with my 3 childhood friends, including my older sister, as we describe what it was like to bring our past selves into our present. We were close all through high school, but life took us on different paths, to different cities, and through different experiences of faith, marriage, and family life.

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Over 2 decades later, we reconvened and replayed the tape of our lives-each one of us bearing witness to the other. Today, we share with you what we discovered about the power of reclaiming your past. I pray this episode sparks your imagination and ignites your desire as you consider pulling in old and new friends as companions on your journey toward wholeness.

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Here's what we cover:

1. Why 4 childhood friends reconnected to each other-and our past selves

2. How diverse perspectives strengthened, not divided, our rekindled friendships

3. Confronting & overcoming regret

4. How revisiting my sister's teen pregnancy became a catalyst for healing

5. What we'd each say to our younger selves now

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Resources

• ‍Research on friendship capacity
• ‍Song: Pass It On by Kurt Kaiser lyrics

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Thanks to our sponsors:

• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.
• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Visit hiyahealth.com/BESTOFYOU and get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults.

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast, where we are in a series all about friendship. And today is a really special episode, in part because we're celebrating a significant milestone. This past week, I found out that this podcast crossed 1 million downloads in just a little over a year. That's 60 episodes, over 1 million people have listened to The Best of You podcast. 

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This is a mind-blowing number to me, that so many of you each week are tuning in to listen. As we talk about how to break free from painful patterns, mend the past and become our true selves in God. 

When I started this podcast, a little over a year ago, a couple of things were really important to me. Number one, first and foremost, I wanted to bring the best of psychology together with faith to talk about how we become whole people now. How we become the people that God wants us to become this side of heaven. As a clinician, and as a person of faith. I see so many important ways in which both psychology and theology can inform us, in practical ways to become more whole, and that healing starts now. 

But, secondly, I wanted to bring my whole self to this podcast. I didn't want to pretend that I have it all figured out. I'm part of this journey with you. And it's really important to me, to not only bring the best of what I study, of what I research, of what I know to be good, solid science, and good, solid theology, but also to bring my whole self. Which means to bring what's good and what's also still very much in progress. 

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And, so, in today's episode, it felt apropos to bring on my three childhood friends, including my sister. To talk about how we've reconnected, these past few years. And how that reconnection has created such a foundation for health going forward. 

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And so today's episode is really about those old friendships. How you can pull in and reconnect to old friends from the past. These old friends who help you connect to your sense of self in such a unique way. These friends who can remind you of aspects of yourself you may well have lost touch with. Maybe your playfulness or your innocence. Maybe a dream that you had, or a gift, or a talent you had that somehow got buried along the way, as things got hard. 

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And these are the folks who've stood by as you've grown, and changed, and navigated different life stages. They might understand your past, the place from which you came. It's the place from which you came. The unique quirks or the unique values of that, that might have changed along the way. 

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They remind you that through all the seasons of life, you're still you. You're still that person you were before life, maybe beat, you down and got the best of you. You still have that precious younger you. That you that was full of dreams, that was full of optimism, that was full of hope, is still in you. 

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There's something so powerful and so grounding about coming together with a safe person. Who knew you in a different season of your life. Where you look together at the pieces. Maybe, about what's hard, about some of the things that happened, that maybe you didn't expect. That you didn't even know how to prepare yourself for, back then, but you've survived.

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You've come out the other side now, and together you remind each other. That you're still the same person in so many ways. Yes, you've grown wiser through some really hard things. Yes, there's a lot to grieve together. There's a lot that we didn't know how to anticipate, but here we are now. We've made it through some things. Let's take a minute to see where we are now. To see where we've been, what we've come through, where we are now. And even more, importantly, where we still have to get, where we still want to go, and what's still possible.

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These old friends can come alongside us and be such an ally, and be such a resource, such a gift. As you look at who you were in the past, what you've survived, and where you are now. And you formulate a hope that takes all of that into account. All of who you are, of what's changed, of what you've survived, of where you are now. 

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So that as you look forward, you are grounded in a fuller, more whole picture of all of it. Of the truth of what's been hard, of the wisdom you've now gained. You can find hope, in looking back, even over what's been hard. Not to dwell there, but to look back and scoop up the pieces and weave them together in a newer, more whole, more complete version of yourself. That is a compilation of the past, of the present, and of the hope of what is, yet, to come. 

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There is research that shows that very few friendships last seven years. Only 30%, in fact. But those that do last seven years, tend to have what it takes to last a lifetime. So if you've got friends out there that were dear friends of yours for seven years. Even if you've lost touch, that's a strong foundation upon which to build. 

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Research also shows that we can really only sustain about five intimate friends, and only about 15 trusted friends. That's not that many. Those 15 might be some of those friends with whom you've lost touch. Maybe you see them on social media. Maybe you see them at the YMCA, or at a church group, or wherever, and maybe you've grown a little distance, but the trust is there. 

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And research shows that it's not so much about quantity. It's not about having a massive amount of friends. It's about quality. It's about intentionality. It's about taking inventory. Who are those trusted people, whether from the past or from your current life, and how can you pull a few of them in closer. To go even deeper, and how being intentional about that is an incredibly important part of a healthy, whole life. 

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And, so, for today's episode, we're going to talk about these older friends. And I've invited three of my childhood friends onto the podcast. And we're going to share with you, some of what we've learned, as we become intentional about reconvening these last few years. Today's three guests are my oldest and dearest childhood friends. Courtney Cook Williamson who's also my older sister. Jennie Ann Kopser Becker, and Rebecca Kopser Goodman I still call her Becky. 

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The four of us grew up together, essentially, since birth. We were all born and raised in a small town in the Bighorn Mountains of Wyoming. Our parents were friends, and we went to the same Bible church, from our earliest years. 

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We would play for hours while our parents talked.They'd throw all four of us in the back of a Pinto station wagon, before there were seatbelt laws, as we drove to church each week. We were all in different grades, so we had different friend groups apart from each other. But we stayed close throughout high school, and had a lot of overlapping friends and things in common. 

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But as adults, our lives diverged quite a bit. We moved away. We left our hometown. We went to colleges on opposite ends of the country. We pursued different careers, and different paths to marriage and family. We stayed in touch a little bit, but were not nearly as involved in each other's day-to-day lives. 

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But during the pandemic, we reconvened, just the four of us, to check in on who we are now, as middle-aged women. We got together, for the first time, in Vermont several years ago and then in Texas this past year, each time for a long weekend. And the results of those two weekends were amazing to all of us. 

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So much had changed and, yet, a lot had remained the same. And that's why I invited these friends and my sister on, to share about our experience of reconnecting to each other after several decades. And how powerful that's been in our own journeys toward wholeness. 

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I hope this episode will spark your imagination. As you consider some of your old friends, and some of your new ones, and how they've shaped your lives. Remember, you don't need a lot of friends. But you do need a few who know you deeply and intimately, and you can start at any time. So with that in mind, I am so delighted to bring you this episode with my dearest childhood friends and my sister Courtney Cook Williamson, Becky Kopser Goodman, and Jennie Ann Kopser Becker.

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I want to start, Courtney, with you because you were approaching your 50th birthday. And you said, to me, "What I want for my birthday, what I want for this milestone, is to get the four of us back together." So tell us a little bit about what was going on inside of you, that led you to reconvene this group of the four of us.

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Courtney: Yes, so there was a confluence of events around my 50th, that came together. And one of them was just a realization of I'm the outlier of the faith-based community of the four of us. I'm not as active in the church, and I have, I think, probably, I'm guessing, many more secular friends. I live a more secular lifestyle. And I'm also on the outside of the Wyoming diaspora. I've lived in New York City, and Sydney, and I'm in Vermont. 

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And as I was looking at 50, I was missing, honestly, both the church connection or the faith-based connection and the connection to the West. You guys are all out West, and I'm not. And kind of thinking about what does it mean to look back on the first half, or the first two thirds of my life. And the people who came up in my mind; as I want to connect with, and talk to, and be with is the three of you and our friend Michael Phillips. 

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So Michael passed in the late '90s, and so we couldn't have him. But you guys and Michael are the people who've known me best, and known me the longest. And I just really wanted to use that birthday as an occasion to bring that back into being, to be honest.

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Alison: I remember when you told me that. You'd been thinking a lot about, "Who are my people?"

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"Where do I find people who get me?"

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And, so, there was this backdrop of, "Oh, I want to be intentional about connecting to some of these people, from my past, that meant so much to me." That you hadn't been in as good of touch with. So I had been, to some degree, in touch, still, with Becky and Jenni Ann. Becky and I had lived in Denver. Whereas you, because you were in Vermont, for a variety of reasons, my sense is you had lost more touch. Is that accurate? And what was that about?

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Courtney: Yes, absolutely. I think that, in some ways, I have just relied upon you to tell me how the Kopsers were doing. Honestly, I think, I consciously just counted on you to give me that news, and I was busy. I was working. Again, I was traveling. I was living in New York. I had gone through a divorce. I was raising my own kids. My kids are a little older than you guys' kids. 

And, so, I had just, kind of, outsourced that to you, frankly. And it just stopped making sense to outsource it to you because that's not connection, that's not keeping up. And I knew both Jennie Ann and Becky to be women that I respected, and trusted, and loved. And I actually started to, honestly, long to know more about them and their lives. And, again, as I had an empty nest, I had more energy, and interest, and bandwidth to want to know what's going on with them.

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Alison: So, Jennie Ann and Becky, what was it like for you when Courtney said, "Let's get the four of us back together?" We hadn't seen each other in I don't know how long, all four of us together. What was that like for you guys?

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Jennie Ann: So I will just say that it was an email that Courtney wrote, an amazing email, always, and she just threw it out there to us. I think she had talked to you, Alison. But, then, she just sent an email and said, "This is what I want. This is what I am looking to get together, and are you in?" And I will say it wasn't anything that there were any hints that this would be coming. It was out of the blue, completely, out of the blue. And I was like, "Oh, my gosh, yes."

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So immediately I would say that it touched into a desire that had been long just sitting there and, maybe, waiting for this very moment. Not, necessarily, one that there was an expectation that it was actually going to get to be met. But, then, when the opportunity came along, and I'm just speaking for myself, I was just like, "I can't believe that we're going to do this and, absolutely, I can't even think of anything I want more."

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Alison: So how long had it been, Courtney and Jennie Ann? Because you guys were best friends all through high school. The two of you were tight. How long had it been since you'd really, meaningfully, connected as adults?

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Jennie Ann: I will say that, probably, we hadn't even, yet, fully connected as adults. Because, circumstantially, our lives peeled off in just fast, and opposite, and full trajectories that there was no overlap.

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Courtney: Jennie Ann and I, both, hit the rockiness of being an adult fast. When I was 19 and when Jennie Ann was 18, we didn't have a gentle glide into adulthood. We both hit adulthood fast and we started coping from our late teenage years. 

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And, so, yes, that's the last time that we got to be talking a lot, and playing whist on the wrestling bus, calling each other Rhoda and Juanita. And we had connected around when Jennie Ann had gotten married, and again around our friend's loss. But, really, we launched into adulthood and didn't get a chance to keep up with each other, and that was a rupture, honestly.

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Jennie Ann: And I would say there was one small, little foreshadowing, Alison, at your wedding. When the four of us, kind of, minus you because you were the one getting married. But the three of us had this tiny, little overlap that really did stir the pot, for me, in terms of growing that desire, even after the decades. Thinking, "Look, this would be so amazing."

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Alison: How about for you, Becky? So you and I both lived in Denver, into our adulthood. I even lived with you, in your basement, when you were pregnant with Jordan.

Becky: That was a definite time of just, like you said, reconnection, even for a bit. And you being able to come to know my oldest daughter. And then walk through some of the days with getting ready to have my second, and just having the unfiltered home life all around.

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Alison: Yes, it's true. I mean, the fact that you guys let me into your home and live with you. While you were, literally, seven months pregnant with your second child, it was just amazing because I was going through my own rocky season. So my recollection for us, Becky, is after that time when we weren't in Denver, together, we wouldn't talk a lot. 

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But I remember, distinctly, sometimes, you and I would overlap in our hometown. And if I could get half a day with you. I remember sitting at Kendrick Park, and you and I, we had enough foundation. We could go deep and really maximize that time, and it did keep us a little bit in touch with each other's lives, even though it wasn't quantity.

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Becky: I would agree, and that's when I started to just really resonate with you and with Jennie Ann, at that time. And now with all three of us, it's so much more the quality rather than the quantity. Just being able to have a little bit, and just going into deep waters, and feeling safe to do so.

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Courtney: That's the through line to this whole thing of what happened for 20 years. Is, honestly, the things that did happen were deep waters, intense, that quote "unfiltered home life". We even though we hadn't seen each other, each time we could connect. Whether Alison, you guys had a little more than I did. 

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We were immediately back into trust, realness, authenticity, support, resilience all the real things. And I don't know about you guys, but the older I get and the longer I live, the more rare and special it is to be able to go there with someone. And that's what just kept happening, even if it was five years apart, it still happened.

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Alison: What created that baseline of safety and trust? That even when we were swooping in and out, and getting glimpses. It allowed us then to prove it out after not, necessarily, seeing each other for 20 years

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Jennie Ann: Well, I think that the foundational thing, two things, when you said that we were maybe more familial than anything else, I really do. When I picture you guys, I don't have you in the same pot as my next level friends. It really is foundational and it does, it feels like extended family or something. There's a very different bond there than the people that, then, came into my life later as friends, even as good a friends as they are. 

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And we had all of the external common experiences. Even though we had other friends, and I think weren't even so much a foursome except for our early childhood years, it was super formative. And then when we swooped back, decades later, I think, that it was largely we had been growing in wholeness, separately. And we were all primed and ready to bring who we had become into our foundational, circumstantial friendships and, then, have them go forward into the future.

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Courtney: And to that I would add exactly that and the priming. And I think it's a little funny that I'm the one to say that, is that, honestly, that evangelical Christian upbringing we were raised. In that exegetical. We went to church together. We rode in the back of the Pinto to church every week. We understood, we were mentored from very young about how to be a good person. How to walk in Jesus's footsteps. All of that was just right in the mix from day one, and part of that family sense is like, who will we be? How will we grow?

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How will we develop?

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The other thing I don't want to miss saying is we had a just absolutely phenomenal Rocky Mountain upbringing. That it's just a beautiful setting that I find often that no one else understands what it's like to grow up in the Bighorn Mountains. So you put all that together, and then I would throw it to Becky and say, what else would you add to this extraordinary connection?

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Becky: Just adding to the whole time that we got together. The invite, from Courtney, for me being the youngest, it brought me back to my young self, a little bit, too. To be excited that I got invited. There was that bit of, "Ah, I get to play with the big girls or the older girls." 

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And at the same time, very quickly, understood because of the email and just as we were in correspondence, like Jennie Ann mentioned and Courtney, that there's been a lot of years that have passed and a lot of growth, and good things, hard things. More complete wholeness as a person, and I felt very much a part. 

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So being welcomed, invited, that was something literal. But also that I felt like was meaning that we're going to be coming and didn't know what it was going to look like, but the openness was there.

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Jennie Ann: I just want to add to that, that invite triggered all of those, the anticipation and the not knowing what we're getting into. We got there and, no kidding, it was 100% safe. It was 100% safe. There was grace extended for whatever was shared. And I think that everybody had grown to a place of being able to just fully hear and receive, what the others were wanting to just put on the table.

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Alison: Which is extraordinary because our lives had gone in very different directions. So, for example, Jennie Ann, you had six kids, pretty quickly. That was an intense experience going into full on parenting and, Courtney, your experience was very different from that. You had your two kids very young. You had gone through a divorce. Becky, you had gone through an adoption.

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In my family, my husband had been widowed. In many ways, we were each navigating very different lives. I was single for a long time. You guys all got married way before me. There was just a lot of differences. 

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So what was fascinating when we reconvened, from my perspective, was every single one of us, on these very different life trajectories. Including a different faith trajectory, in some ways, we were all becoming more whole, and we wouldn't have been able to know that. But we were all doing the work and that is what created the safety. 

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It wasn't that we got together and we're like, "Oh, our lives were exactly alike." It was this commitment to healing. This commitment to trying to grow in our own selves, in our parenting selves, in our marriages. In our understanding of other people. In our understanding of the world. In the understanding of what's true, and good, and worth pursuing. It's all of those ingredients that created the safety. Not so much that we overlapped in all the ways we'd been living our lives.

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Courtney: Well, and, Alison, just to add to that. That's the truth of the friendship in that time. And, then, let's just talk about this was the year 2020, which is a polarized political time, and we're in the middle of COVID. So we had all had very disparate experiences and all came out in different places.

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I'm sure we all voted differently, and I'm sure we all had different points of view on vaccine. But it didn't matter because that safety was absolutely durable. And everyone has said the word wholeness, so far, and that's it. It's, honestly, to do with doing that work toward wholeness. 

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I think that's the thing I want to hear more from you guys about, is what had we done that made it safe? Even though we hadn't seen each other. Even though the world was polarized. Even though we surely could have been polarized. There was a lot of reasons why we might have felt odd with each other, but we didn't. So what happened? What was new? I honestly think about this often.

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Jennie Ann: Well, I think that, for me, my journey had taken me far enough to get to know my own vulnerabilities, weaknesses, shortcomings, brokenness, all the words, enough, not that that's over ever, but enough. Where I think we had all become safe people for other people who had, similarly, discovered those things about themselves. 

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And, then, I would say that coming to Vermont and then our second gathering. I would say that, then, this coming together, not that the wholeness progression is over, it's, of course, going to continue. But it really was something big and milestone-ish in my own wholeness journey. 

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Because I think that it was a little bit of a tangible representation of how God knows us intimately, and every single little detail. And it got represented in these three very different people looking at you, across the table, who heard and filled out the picture. And just being known intimately like that, was the next stage on the wholeness journey.

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Alison: I like how you're saying that because we grow as individuals and in community. We're each in our own communities. But there was something about coming back to the source. The familial source and, sometimes, people don't have that in their family of origin. Sometimes people don't have that in their childhood friends. 

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But, for us, coming back to the source of contextualizing. So, for me, it's like, "This is how I take myself to be now. And now I'm with these people who knew me when I was five, when I was seven, when I was 12, when I was 15, and what are the congruencies? What hasn't changed? What has changed?" There's something incredibly grounding about that.

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I think about in therapy; we do this work of having you imagine your five-year-old self. And having you go back in the past and think of the ways that you interpreted events. And to be able to do that, literally, with the people who shared those events and those memories. We would go back to some of these childhood memories, and I could tell we were all putting pieces together about each other. But also putting pieces together about our own lives. As we, collectively, looked at the big puzzle of our lives together, and I agree that was formative.

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****

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Courtney: To give a concrete example of a moment when we were all together, at my house in Vermont. I think it was, probably, day two and a half or maybe three, I don't know. I think it was maybe Rebecca or Alison, and we started talking about what are our family traditions. 

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And looking on your guys' lives, any of these intact, I don't love that phrase, but these intact families. And Becky was talking about rafting in the mountains, and these ideas, and I was listening. And on the one hand, I feel so much joy about this, and, then, on the other hand, I feel sad because I had been divorced. 

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And, so, honestly, one of the things I said to you guys was, "I don't have traditions. Honestly, every Christmas, I don't know what's going to happen. Maybe I'll see my kids, maybe, I won't. Maybe I'll see my kids in Thanksgiving maybe I won't." 

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And that was, to talk about safety, I had never actually been able to articulate or even, honestly, be aware that was something that, I don't even know if I'd use the word suffer, but I feel it. And in my ordinary life, I might not say that because you're not going to say to people, "I don't have traditions. I just chill out and hope my kids come home." 

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But with you guys, it was like, "Yes, actually, unlike you, I don't really have traditions because divorce changes all that." And in that moment, I had both self-knowledge and also just a sense of being seen, and that made it easier. I want to say there's, probably, I bet there's a dozen of those for each of us, in that moment. Where you get to be who you are and then also feel seen in that moment.

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Alison: I love that. That rings very true for me. For me, that happened in our second gathering. So we did this first gathering and it blew all of our minds. It was intense. I think we all went home and had to sleep for the week afterward, but it was the good kind of intensity. So we thought, "We need to be doing this now regularly. We need to figure out how to stay in each other's lives because this is important." 

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And, so, we had a second gathering, and at this gathering, I had been invited to speak at a conference. And it was very representative of my quote-unquote, "New life" in a sense of doing some of this more public-facing speaking, some of this more public-facing writing. That can, sometimes, feel disjointed inside of me. 

And, so, to immediately go from that into the safety of our foursome, where you guys knew me when I was just pounding Dr. Peppers, and Tombstone pizza, whatever. Becky and I were cruising up and down main street. That was just the joy of our lives. 

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I was like, "I haven't changed. Nothing has changed, and there are nobody's opinions in the world." This is going to bring tears to my eyes, "There are nobody's opinions in the world that I value more than the three of yours, and if I'm good in this group, I'm good." And that was, for me, it brought this incongruence of what it felt like some of my life now and some of my life then into that wholeness. Into that, "Oh, no, I'm the same person." And just crystallized that for me, and that was really profound for me.

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Becky: When I returned home, following both weekends. I just shared with my family how I felt like it was just a retreat of sorts. And the retreat being that there was just so much good laughter, there was also sharing, and there was a lot of dancing. And it was a place I felt like I did as a child, I could just be myself. And I knew that, as a child, I could be myself around these three. And, then, it was so remarkable to be meeting up with you guys in Vermont, and later on in our next place, too. 

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Where I thought, "I just am not holding anything back." And that's really unique, and I knew that you guys were all a safe place, a trusted place, and continue to be. And this is the other thing that I've been thinking about is, as the youngest, I felt very protected and supported. And just in, once again, the tangible sense and stuff when you're little. 

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And, then, I got to thinking, "Well, I feel the same way as an adult." But I'm hoping that can get exchanged, too. That I can offer that to you guys, too. But I feel like that's still there, and that was groundwork that happened many years ago.

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Alison: To me that reminds me of when Curt Thompson shared about how we take our friends with us in our neural networks. There's something physiological, and it's remarkable, to me, Becky, I feel that way about you, when I'm with you. It's interesting listening to you talk about being the youngest because, for you guys who don't know, Becky, of probably all four of us, she was this incredible college athlete, formidable force. And, yet, because you were the youngest, you're excited that you got invited. When by all empirical measures you're, probably, by far the most-

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Jennie Ann: And we all looked up to Becky, actually.

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Courtney: And Becky, she's a trained nurse. You're the person that dispenses wisdom and calmness. So it is true how those roles kind of change.

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Alison: Yes, and I feel it with you, so you go into the little sister. But with you, Becky, I go into the "Oh, I'm okay because I have Becky." Because that's how I felt in high school. I'm like, "I've got Becky." And we did not, I want to reiterate, one of the things that's pretty cool about that foundation is we had different friend groups. You had your own best friends. I had my own best friends. But there was this feeling inside of me that, to this day, when I'm with you, I feel it is, "I've got Becky, so I'll be okay." And it's so fascinating that we take that with us. That lived experience of somebody with us.

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Becky: So shared.

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Courtney: Alison, I have a question, and maybe I, probably, shouldn't only address it to you, Alison, but I think of you as the expert in this. I feel like in some ways, we are lucky we have this and there's some volition around tapping back into it. But I guess my question is, how do you cultivate it if you don't have it? 

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Because I think that part of what we're talking about here is we all needed this connection in 2022, 2020. We felt like we needed that to get back to the grounding, the trust, the safety, the wholeness. And what does a person do if they don't just have their sister group? What is it about this that is something that we can take into our lives? Because I think we're hungry for it.

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Alison: I agree. I mean, I think our situation is an extreme version of safety, where it's, literally, from the womb. I will say I've had this experience with, I have another friend since we spent more time in the Bighorn Mountains I've reconnected with, from high school. And it's a very similar oh, we've each been on a growth path and, although, we lost touch, those growth paths collide. I think any glimmer, as they say, any glimmer. If you think, I'll say to my clients, I'll be like, "When did you feel seen?"

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"When did you feel loved?"

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"Who was it?"

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"Was it a pastor?"

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"When you were 25; was it a grandparent?" 

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"Was it an aunt?"

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"Was it someone when you moved to a town and they were just kind to you?"

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Just look for that glimmer, it'll stand out to you. You feel it in your whole nervous system when there's safety, and someone has seen you. And, usually, people have some answer to that. Just someone that showed that's what we're moving toward. And if you can reconnect with that person, great. If you can't reconnect with that person, hold on to that feeling. 

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What did that feel like? Let's identify what does it feel like when someone is really with you? And then we're going to work toward finding people who give you that feeling. Because, the good news is, you get it, you know what it is.

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And, so, now, we're going to help you find folks. And when you do find that because we just did an episode on new friends. I found it with a couple of people, very recently, where you can go deep pretty fast when you know, "Oh, that's what I want."

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Jennie Ann: Well, and also, in all this, I think that you then develop the ability to give that. And, so, you do tend to find each other. People who can offer that, you, very quickly, get this very definite response from people who are also able to connect at that level. I will say the childhood piece is just like we just got a special gift. Because, truly, just having somebody who gives you the permission to show your whole self to them. And to, then, also, allow that to evolve and grow. I don't know that there's a bigger gift on this earth and that can start now, with a new friendship. 

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The fact that we got to do that with people who could have stayed attached to who we were. Even as amazing and beautiful as all that was. I think the biggest gift in all this, for me, was that all of you were fully on board with wanting to know who we've become, 

and not keeping us in those spots as good as they were. But we've all grown and we wanted to know each other in our current state, and as we're moving forward, I think, that's the hugest gift of all this.

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Courtney: That's it. That's the gift, it's to be known from that core childhood self. But we have all changed and grown and to be able to be seen. Oh, my gosh, it's so nice, you're exactly right, Jennie Ann.

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Alison: And it doesn't always happen that way. We could have reconnected, I'm sure we all have stories of reconnecting to folks from our past, where there isn't that connection, paths have dispersed.

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Jennie Ann: And just there's something valuable about connecting over past commonalities. But, yes, the gift of being able to get current and move forward with people.

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Alison: That's a good point.

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Becky: So do you think that this really could have happened separate from meeting together face to face?

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Courtney: I was just going to say something similar, Becky. That there is a very real way, to me, that this feels like an IRL experience. Almost on the other side of 15 years of social media. So I'm sure I saw you guys on Facebook, and then later on Instagram or whatever, and that's fine. And it created a similar acronym of, "Oh, I'm in touch with Jennie Ann and Becky."

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But, of course, I was not. And who we are on social is just not who we are. And when you say that it was in real life, we sat around, for days, being with each other and, I think, there's got to be no substitute for that. I think it's got to be crucial. Don't you guys think?

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Becky: I think so.

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Alison: That's a good point because I was curious how, Courtney, I forgot about social media. How were we in touch those 20 years? Because we did have updates on each other. We kind of knew details, factoids, about each other's lives.

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Jennie Ann: I would even say they don't even overlap. Honestly, for me, I feel like what we got to start and now have continued since the face-to-face at Courtney's. And, so, now we are able to use Zoom and things because we went together and, literally, unstructured time. Unstructured time just being together.

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Courtney: That's so important, it wasn't a wedding, but it matches the hybrid thing. I think we spend together, it was 18 months, once, and then 18 months again later. And, then, we have these scheduled Zoom meetings, and it's the combination that's made it real. I think that's got to be a huge part of this. I know it is for me. 

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And even pulling ourselves out of our context a little bit. I mean, one of the things I'm in awe of is both Jennie Ann and Becky, in particular, are just, literally, always on call to their amazing, brilliant, children. 

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And, yet, you are removed a little bit from that context, and it lets us all be together. And I would just encourage people, too, you're still moms, you're still busy people. But we did travel to be together twice, and that created a space that we needed. To just be who we really are and let down our hair, metaphorically, for sure.

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Becky: Originally, when we met the first time. It was a miracle that everything was timed, and kids were taken care of, and everything worked out to get together. And, then, I believe, when we had the other opportunity. It was, "Let's do this. Let's just try one more time to see if this can work." And it did. And I think that because of the previous time, we all thought, "Okay, this is important." At least, for me, speaking for myself, I thought, "I'm going to clear things, whatever I can do to make this happen."

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Jennie Ann: Yes, so I think that one of the things I was thinking about, with that, Becky, is that, okay, so for me, the initial get-together opened a whole new door. And, so, it took courage to take the risk to go try this. But then once you do, then, it's just not something that we're going to be hesitant about. It's like, "Oh, I'm going to actually prioritize this now. I already know that the connection has been made, and this is life-giving, clear the deck for this." And I didn't say any of that well, but you know what I'm trying to say, guys.

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Courtney: Yes, you did say it well. But I also think that we should maybe dwell, for a moment, on the risk. Because I think we're speaking through this haze of, "Oh, my gosh, it was amazing for us." But it was scary both times. I know Jennie Ann when we met in Texas, you had some stuff going on, and you put yourself in that space. 

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And I know, for me, part of why it worked to have the original meeting in Vermont. Again, I describe myself as the outlier or the diaspora person. It helped that you guys came to me. That helped me as the divorced person or the person with, maybe, slightly, let's say, adjacent apostate tendencies. I think that we did all choose to be vulnerable and we met that challenge. And I don't want to underestimate that, that does take courage, and it was worth it.

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Alison: What was the risk with the second weekend? In my mind, it is along the lines of, "What if that was a one off?"

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"What if that was just special? Can we replicate it?" And my sense after the second weekend was we went even deeper a lot.

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Courtney: Yes, by a lot.

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Jennie Ann: It's like we went in another layer.

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Alison: Yes.

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Courtney: I had less for the second. What about you guys? Jennie Ann and Becky, for you, what was the risk in the second one?

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Becky: I think in the second one, I feel like I went a layer deeper. The first time that we met up, I felt really the safety and the trust. But that might have been more communicating and sharing about the years and my life, and a little bit more of ruts around me. And I think that the second time was more of it's just me, and the change, and the growth that happened with me, personally, and that was, definitely, more vulnerable place.

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Alison: I agree with you, Becky, I think, we really went deeper into some of our own stuff and shared pretty vulnerably. One of the things that was remarkable about that second gathering, for me, was to really be a witness to, especially, you Courtney and Jennie Ann. Talking about that season of life when you were 19 and 20 and your awareness of what the other one was going through. Your pain that you couldn't be there for the other one. And, really, that is where your guys' paths began to diverge. Not because there was any animosity, not because there was any anger. 

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One of you used the word rupture, that there was just this inability. There was so much going on in each of your individual lives that didn't overlap, and also that reduced your capacity to be there for each other. And there was this moment where you both were processing, and I sensed, I'm not sure the exact words you used. But you were both circling back to that and repairing, and naming, and I don't think either of you were holding anything against the other. 

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But you were both naming, regret, you were naming, "This was hard." And it was powerful, in that room when you guys were circling back. And I'd love for you to talk about that, because I think for people listening this happens. We go through seasons in life where we can't be there for somebody and we lose touch. I've had this happen with numerous friends. 

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I remember, there was a season where I had a friend just disappear on me, for years, and it was painful. And I thought, "Well, there's nothing I..." And then we circle back later and she tells me what was going on and I'm like, "I get it." And I never held animosity at all, but, sure, it hurt. I think this happens. And, so, to watch you guys enter back into that was really beautiful to me. Can you guys talk about that a little bit?

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Jennie Ann: I will say that it's one of those things in my life where I feel such a need to be able to just say the thing that I wish that I could have done differently, with different people. And, specifically, the privilege of getting to just say that to you, Courtney, and have the opportunity to express the sadness that still lingered. Even though we've both grown and moved on, and that was a real gift.

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Courtney: I think that's, definitely, one of the outcomes, it's very seldom in our lives do we actually get to go back and maybe have a little bit of a do over. And I think there was a way in which, I think all four of us, because what ended up happening was this thing that, nominally, had happened both in Jennie Ann's life and my life. But Becky and Alison were also witness to it. So we ended up all, you got that four mini bystander view. That's just a blessing, and it doesn't happen very much.

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Where you can actually have a cathexis around, maybe, to make it slightly less abstract. I'm, maybe, the most comfortable talking about the little, there were several different things that happened all around coming of age. But I got unexpectedly pregnant. I had an unplanned pregnancy when I was 19, I guess, and there were lots of events cascading from that. 

And we all tried to help each other, and wanted to help each other, and it was quite a challenging time in the two Christian homes-

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Alison: Small town.

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Courtney: Yes.

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Alison: You were offered an Ivy League college, let's say, I mean, it was a bizarre set of circumstances.

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Courtney: And the thing that I know now, which I didn't know then, was I have this public event. Again coming home from Dartmouth pregnant, which is certainly quite newsworthy. But, of course, anytime something like that happens, in a small community or in a friend group, everyone else has things going on, too. And maybe they're a little more quiet, and maybe they're hidden, and maybe they've remained hidden. 

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And, so, what this time allowed us to do was both recast what I had gone through, honestly, much more integrated with what we were all going through. Because, of course, we were all teenagers and we were all going through a learning process around our sexual selves, and our Christian selves, and our moral selves, and our ethical selves, and our relational selves. 

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And when do you ever get to go back and reanalyze that stuff? It was really beautiful. And I would, again, if you don't have your Kopser girls to do that with, and your sister to do that with. I think finding someone to do that with is the essence of friendship. 

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It can't happen on social media. It's something that we can intentionally do with each other, and it just gave me so much peace and strength. And, then, I also just want to say, the combined wisdom from the three of you, in this event, was just so fun for me. Because now I have these powerful, midlife, women who know all kinds of things and have learned so much to draw from. And now I know that because we went through this thing where we talked about all these things we had learned. I mean, what a resource, it's game-changing for me.

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Alison: Yes, I also want to add, I really do think that is what a good therapist does. A good therapist helps you. I'm thinking of folks, if you're listening to this, going, "I don't have that friend." But that's what you're doing in the therapy room. You're retelling your story with someone else. There's a withness, there's a presence. There's somebody asking you questions. Helping you see it from all these different angles. Helping you untie the knots of the narratives you've told yourself. That's what therapy does. 

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Friendship and therapy, they're not the same thing. They're not a substitute for each other. But there is overlap, and there's a way in which you get some of that benefit. That healing benefit with really good friends. You can go back to a really painful memory with some really safe people, and you also get some of that release, that nervous system calming. That, "Oh, my gosh, I'm known." And I'm seeing this from all these different angles.

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Jennie Ann: Definitely, it's just an extra, over the top, gift that we've been given to be able to actually go through this growth together. But not recognizing that most people don't have those relationships in place in their lives, it's not something to give up on pursuing.

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< Music >

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Courtney: Another thing, Ali, that I wanted to bring out about this event that happened at our Texas meetup. Which is our second meetup, and this goes out to all the parents out there. Is that I think the precipitating conversation, I think it was even before you got there. 

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Jennie Ann and Becky were talking about their kids. And I was actually very interested in hearing what it's like to be raising kids. My kids are out of college now, but your kids are still in high school. And I found this to be true over and over again, that when we seek to parent our kids, we actually have to re-parent ourselves from our past. 

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And when we struggle with how to protect and nurture our kids, we actually have to learn new things that have to do with our own past. And anyone can take that as an opportunity, but it's delicate work. It is work that a good therapist, a good friend, you need a little help because it's complex. Because it's your kid, but it's also you, and it's the fears you have, but it's also the fears you have for your kids.

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Alison: It's sacred ground. You want to proceed cautiously, especially, as you're bearing witness. We're bearing witness to each other. We're bearing witness to each other parenting. We're bearing witness to each other in some of our best and in some of our most complicated moments, and it is delicate. And that's where that safety comes in. And the thing to remember is when we're coming together, especially, that first weekend, where it's really vulnerable. Each of us is coming into it with our own stuff, from our own lives, and lots of complicated stuff. 

I mean, between the four of us, we've covered the gamut of anything that could happen to a family, to a kid, to a marriage, to a person; mentally, emotionally, physically. It's probably happened. Becky, if it's okay, if you're comfortable, I just remember you were coming in with your eldest daughter, having a really serious medical concern. You came, but you were surfing that literally the whole time.

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Becky: Yes, my oldest had just been recently diagnosed with what looked like Type One diabetes. So she had a blood sugar monitor on her, and she would struggle with actually low blood sugars. And, so, as we were meeting for breakfast and then proceeding to go and look in a really cool bookstore, together, and have some conversation. 

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The alarm on my phone that's connected to her Dexcom blood sugar monitor was going off, and I was having to have some conversations with her from clear across the country. And, man, though, did I feel, also, with you guys, just I was getting support. I was getting a couple of eyeballs looking at me and just saying, "Is everything okay?" 

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And, truly, it brought about, again, some stuff that probably, for me, personally, needed to be talked about. And that was with some of these new health concerns or things in our kids' lives, you can't control everything, there's just hard things.

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Courtney: It was so interesting to me because on the one hand, I was watching it, and I was just like, "Women are so strong." I mean, moms can do anything. I mean, you're in Vermont, you're multitasking. We're actually having fun, we're bonding, and you're, literally, managing with your daughter her health. And then at the same time, we're all surfing that existential horror. And I use the word horror on purpose, as a mom, where you actually can't fix it, you cannot. And she's old enough that you're having to figure out, "What's my boundary?"

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"What do I have to let her do versus what can I do as a mom?"

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And it was just such a moment of, "Oh, my gosh, this is life. This is what it means to be a woman, and a mom, and a modern person."

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Alison: I think what was striking to me is, again, this modern life of we parent so much in isolation.

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Becky: Yes.

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Alison: Do you guys feel that? There's so much of what we're doing, and it's not that we don't have friends. But that weekend where we're really, literally, witnessing each other in the moment. Especially with you, Becky, because it was such an immediate need. There was that vulnerability of we're watching you be in the immediate need with your daughter, in that moment. And that takes a lot of safety, again. But also, I would imagine there's also a sense of not feeling alone in that.

Becky: Right. Again, it wasn't like I could pretend that everything was okay. When I'm in certain settings, I feel like I have to put myself together and act like I've got everything under control with that, and it's false. It's an illusion. So with that, with everyone, I was able to just say, "This is really hard." And it was just going to be hard, and you saw it.

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Alison: And we saw it. 

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Becky: You saw it. I'm like, "All my cool, calm, collectiveness, you're gone." It's just my watch, my phone. So it takes another layer off.

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Jennie Ann: But I think that that's one of the things about this kind of friendship. That's so valuable, is that it is a place that you can be weak and that's actually super needed. We just really need a place to be weak, and honest, and not, necessarily, agreed with. But because it's safe and we're unconditionally accepted, we can disagree, and it can be even life-giving. 

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I don't know, those two things; being able to be disagreed with in a safe place and then also to be fully weak. Both of those things are present in these current relationships, and a huge gift, and something a person should not rest until they find somewhere with somebody. 

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Becky: Well, because I believe you guys will tell me the truth.

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Alison: We'll tell you the truth while loving, while exactly being there with you. While you're with the phone in the middle of the night going, "This is awful, and she's this old, and how do we figure this out together?"

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Courtney: And if I could tell my 40-year-old self about this. I would say to my 40-year-old self, "When you're about to go through divorce, you need to get your friends on the phone and talk to them about it, and not be ashamed, and not try to keep off a friend. And not just be all tough and strong but go ahead and show people your weakness and your fear."

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I mean, I found a couple of ways to do that during that time. But if I had had what we have now with you guys, it would have been so much better. I would have gotten, truthfully, you guys, I would have gotten support from you guys. But that was before I knew that this vulnerability and authenticity could exist. And that's my advice to anyone, especially, to I wish I could go back and tell my younger self that.

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Jennie Ann: I think that it not only is something I would tell to my younger self. But it's where I communicate from when I am encouraging my kids to seek after, to embody, and look for this kind of connection and transparency. Because I've seen that it's possible. It's not just a desire that's going to remain unmet, physically, in this world. I've started pushing hard on them to hope and not give up on finding that. And to put the work in to become a safe place for other people, and look for it. Wait for it, patiently, but also really prioritize looking for that in people and in their lives.

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Courtney: And I would add to that, and I want to be a little careful because I want to make sure we honor one of your children's privacy. But I have watched you, clearly, having success. Because one of your fabulously, brilliant daughters took an opportunity when you and I were with her having breakfast, recently, to ask quite interesting, and vulnerable, and really important questions for a teenage kid. And it was very clear that she knew that she had her mom. 

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But she also had kind of a safe friend who might have a different point of view and that they were going to be coherent. But she was going to get good information. Again, it reminds me of, oh, my gosh, it's so much better to not have to parent in isolation because this kid got two women talking to her, not just one. You got to enjoy your child being able to interact with someone else. I think she was fine, you tell me. 

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But it's like we're paying it forward now to our kids. And you used the word hope. I hope I get to do that with somebody, maybe with Becky's kids or Alison's kids. It was just such a neat thing to start to see us build it for the next generation.

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Becky: Yes, absolutely. So it kind of compounds, is that the word? So what we've been given, we can just build on and pass.

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Alison: Love multiplies. It bleeds. Compounds is a good word, and I think that's a benchmark of a really safe, healthy set of friendships. Which, again, we've always had. We all have our own independent friends. We have all of our own lives. It multiplies out into the rest of the world. 

It becomes that foundation from which more goodness, more love, overflows into the rest of our relationships, into the rest of the world. That's the beauty of friendship, it multiplies out. Healthy friendships are not confining. They're not clicky. They're ones that create more goodness for others.

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Becky: And I would say this has also given me, I'm much quicker to take those risks with others as well. Not with an expectation of, necessarily, making this level of foundational connection. But just as a way of operating with people. 

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I feel my being seen and known, by you guys, has given me courage to just be even more transparent with the people that I have different levels of friendships with. And I think it does, it keeps on spreading. And, again, it's not me, it's just being able to live more holy, which is what this friendship does. Makes me a better friend to even just the casual friendships.

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Courtney: It's exponential.

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Alison: It's reminding me of that old song we would sing at Camp Bethel, "It only takes a spark to get the fire going, and soon so many others will warm up in its glow."

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Becky: Oh, my goodness. 

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Alison: Which, by the way, I learned recently that Becky did unseat you as the Scripture memory champion.

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Courtney: What? Becky? No. That was my one claim to championship. What are you saying? You took my record.

Becky: I memorized some of the shortest verses ever, and I think that you probably had, like, "Jesus wept." I mean, I feel like-

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Courtney: You're just being nice. 

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Becky: No, I really am not. I think that was my goal for one of my entire camp. I did nothing else that week but memorize Scripture verses.

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Courtney: It's because you're a competitor.

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Becky: Yes.

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Courtney: Wow.

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Becky: Your name was renowned, Courtney, at Camp Bethel. It still is.

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Courtney: And this is unfair, though, because you have trophies Sheridan High School for athletics, and then you took my Camp Bethel Scripture Memory Verse trophy. It's just unjust, I think. Honestly joking on the Scripture memory verse.  I do want to also acknowledge that because I do think it's important in this great time of national divide or discord, that you guys are a little closer inside the church than I am. And it has been enormously healing to me to have. 

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It's not even an awkward, you just give me the light of love of Jesus Christ as a part of the way you talk to me. And we never even really even had to talk about some of the differences of faith and it's because the core ones are shared, and we actually don't have these big differences that people might think we have.

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But I think the three of you have done a really beautiful job at that. And I just want to thank you for that because it makes it easier for me to go back to church when I need to or to reach out to other Christians when I need to. Because you guys have made that safe for me.

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Alison: We've definitely discovered there's more commonalities than differences, and that is a little bit of a symbolic gesture for the country. If people actually got together face to face, in person, they would probably find that there are a lot more similarities than what everyone wants to say. 

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All right, so as we close. I want to ask this question, but we might have already covered it, and we've covered a lot, but I like the question. So what would you want your younger self to know about friendships? Let's say your 20, 25-year-old self. Courtney, you already answered it for your 40-year-old self. What would you want your younger self to know about friendships, then, that you know now?

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Courtney: Oh, that you can trust it? By the time I was mid-20s, I was jaded and felt betrayed by lot of people. And you got to trust your friends, and it's okay to do it, and you'll be glad you did.

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Becky: I think to my 20-year-old self, I would like to say it's so important to be yourself, and the people who are okay with who you are going to be there for you. 

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Jennie Ann: I'm not sure exactly how to say this. But I felt like I needed to trust myself. Figuring out exactly who I was, so I could be a good friend to others and, then, also, receive friendship. I think all those things were going on at the same time. 

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So, I guess, I would say get after it because it's hard and scary. It's hard, but it was hard, anyway, so hard and productive is what I would say, and that you can be purposeful.  I really so appreciate, Alison, your devotion to getting tools to your listeners. Because it's not necessarily the bottom line truth piece that we're unaware of, but how to implement that into my life. And I have gained so much from listening. And, so, the tools are out there, start implementing them, and get after the growth.

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Becky: Mm, that's so good.

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Courtney: I'd agree. It takes tools, and it's okay to practice and try it.

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Alison: I would say, for me, I haven't answered this question, but want to. I was just thinking, for me, and I've written about this. But I so took on this idea that my job was to be everybody else's best friend. Be that safe person for everybody else. And I'm noticing as I'm with you guys, there's a part of me that is wondering what it would have been like for my 25-year-old self to think, "What if you just get to be you, and get to work on yourself, and your job in life isn't to make sure everybody else is okay." Because I don't think she knew that. I think she thought that was a little bit of her role in life.

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Courtney: You know, Ali, it's funny that you say this, and you can cut it out if you want. But it was really fun in Texas, and I think I speak for all of us, to get to see you looking sharp, and being really smart, and being out there in the world of your podcast, and then getting to giggle, and be with Allie. And how you and Becky always walk about three steps behind Jennie Ann and I when we go places. 

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I just want to endorse you being able to move between the vulnerable self and the person who is an expert, a bona fide expert, is a great example of what we're talking about. Is being able to have both, we all need to be both. We need to give and to receive.

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Alison: When I'm with the four of you, I'm like, "We're all experts." I mean, it's in part because of this group that I don't ever have this fancy idea of what it means to be wise. Wisdom comes in many shapes and forms. And, yes, I'm just so grateful for you guys, and all the wisdom that you've shared, and all the goodness you're putting into the world. And thank you so much for coming on and talking with me.

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Becky: Thanks, Alison, you, too.

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Jennie Ann: Thank you for having us.

Courtney: Thank you, Alison.

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Becky: Love you.

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Courtney: We love you. I love you guys.

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Jennie Ann: I love you.

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< Outro >

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Alison: Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you'd take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode, and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

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Making new friends is hard as an adult! We've been hurt. We've changed and outgrown old ways. So how do we find new friends? And how do we learn to trust after trust has been broken?

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Today, I'm joined by 2 of my new friends, Aundi Kolber and Dr. Monique Gadson, as we discuss how to overcome past hurts and brave the work of finding new friends. This episode is packed with practical tips, and I was so touched by the raw emotion that surfaced at the end as we each reflect on our own experiences.

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Here's what we cover:

1. Friendship red flags

2. Green flags that indicate safety

3. The impact of trauma on friendships

4. Breaking free from people pleasing

5. How to "break up" with a potential friend

6. Is friendship about quality or quantity?

Connect with Aundi Kolber and Dr. Monique Gadson.

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Resources

• ‍Try Softer by Aundi Kolber
• ‍Strong Like Water by Aundi Kolber
• ‍Finding Hope in a Dark Place by Clarence Schuler and Dr. Monique Gadson

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Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Go to AquaTru.com and enter code BESTOFYOU at checkout to get 20% OFF any AquaTru purifier!
• Get 35% off your first order of Sundays. Go to SundaysForDogs.com/BESTOFYOU or use code BESTOFYOU at checkout.

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast, where we are in a series on friendship. We're talking with friends about friendship, and this week's episode is really special to me. I've invited two new friends, that I've made within the last couple of years onto the episode to talk about what it's like to make a new friend later in life, as an adult. And there are a couple of things that are hard about making new friends as an adult. 

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Number one, it can be challenging because if you've had a lot of old friends. If you've enjoyed longevity in your friendships. Let's say you move to a new location, and you're starting over, and it can feel hard at first. Like "I've left friends behind who knew me so well. How am I going to establish that level of depth, that level of intimacy with a new friend?" And that can feel overwhelming to people. I hear that from people all the time. 

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And, then, secondly, another thing that's hard is many of us have been hurt in friendships, frankly. By the time you've lived a few decades on this planet, you've experienced hurt, no doubt by a friend. And, so, it can be hard to learn how to trust again, as an adult. When we've all had a few wounds from prior friendships. 

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So, today, I asked two of my new friends on. So that we could talk about these two things. How do we go deep with new friends? How do we establish new rhythms with them? 

And how do we determine trustworthiness in someone? When we're a little bit older, we're, maybe, a little bit wiser. We're maybe not quite as ready to trust as quickly. So how do we establish trustworthiness? How do we discern it in a new friend? 

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I'm super excited for this episode with my friends Aundi Kolber and Monique Gadson. You know both of them. They've both been on the podcast before. Aundi Kolber is a therapist and the author of two books, Try Softer and Strong Like Water. She's a trauma-informed therapist, and writes from the lens of helping people who've experienced trauma to discover deep healing. 

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And the other friend of mine is Dr. Monique Gadson. She is also a therapist who has worked primarily in church settings, throughout her career. She's the co-author of a book, Finding Hope in a Dark Place with Clarence Shuler, and she's a professor at the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I'm so excited for you to join me for this conversation with my friends Aundi and Monique.

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< Music >

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Hi, friends. It is good to see your faces. I feel like I have to take that in for a second because I talk to you, both, but I don't see your faces that often. So I'm so excited to have you both here today. I asked both of you because I've known each of you just a few years. You really qualify as these sort of new friends and that's really what we're talking about.

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You're both therapists. I love that you both have that background, all three of us do. You're both people who I have found a way to overcome those obstacles to making a new friend. Monique, you were conducting a prayer, a live prayer, via your IG Stories when you first caught my attention. 

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A couple of years ago, I think it was a year and a half ago, but I stopped to pray with you a few nights online. I was feeling a little jaded doing my scrolling, and there you were just so sincerely praying, and that meant a lot to me. And then through that, we connected offline, I just sensed a real Holy Spirit connection with you. You are so real, and you've just shared with me just so sincerely. 

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We come from really different contexts. You're a Black woman from the Deep South, from Atlanta. I grew up in a very White context in rural Wyoming. We come from very different backgrounds. And, yet, there was something, it meant so much to me that you sensed safety in me. That you invested trust in me. I know that takes a lot to do, and I've so appreciated getting to know you. Learning so much from you, and just so grateful for you and the ways we've gotten to know each other. 

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Aundi, you caught my eye online. Again, you're two friends I made online, which is not the moral of this story. That we go on social media to make new friends. But in my case, I'm so grateful for both of you that that's how this happened. You and I were, both, you had just published Try Softer. I had published Boundaries for Your Soul, we were both new to this. We're therapists, now, all of a sudden, we're authors. We have a growing platform. 

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We began to connect offline and just developed an incredible rhythm and depth, very quickly, to our friendship that has lasted now a couple of years. So that's why I invited you both on. I'm so grateful that you're here to have this conversation with me. I would love to hear from both of you, just your perspective on what I've shared, on making new friends. How that's been hard for you as an adult? What potentially you've had to overcome in order to do that in your lives.

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Monique: Oh, yes, it's been a little bit disorienting and in some ways liberating. I do believe being an adult and being an older adult, now, wisdom has taught a lot. And aging process, if you will, teaches us how to recognize and cut around some things a little bit quicker, process, if you will. And I think that that's what's been liberating, for me, that I have not had to go through the, "Oh, I've done all of this." And get to the end of the rainbow, and it's not the healthiness or whatever the case may be. 

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But it is disorienting in that, as you say, we're all therapists, and we all have done therapy as well, our own personal therapy. And through that process of becoming more self-aware and growing, it is disorienting when you do learn that maybe a lot of those attachments you made were made from those more unhealthy places. 

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So it is a little bit disorienting to think, "Oh, wow, maybe this is why this has drifted apart." Or "This is why now that I have shifted and things seem awkward, maybe that's why." So it's a little bit of disorientation that has taken place in terms of just thinking like, "Wow, it's not as it used to be." But there is this liberation that I feel that I don't, necessarily, have to go through some of the bumps and the bruises to land on a more healthy relationship.

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Alison: I love that, both, disorienting and liberating. I want to hear about how you learn to discern more quickly those potential pitfalls, those red flags. So let's circle back to that. Aundi, how about you? What's it been like for you to establish newer friendships as an adult?

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Aundi: Yes, well, first I just want to say it's fun to hear how you two connected, a little bit more. Just because I think I had known you, Dr. Monique, in a different context. But I love hearing how that developed also between two women that I really respect and I love to hear that because we don't always hear those stories. So I just wanted to say that. 

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But, yes, it has been quite an adventure to make friends as an adult. I mean, part of my story is that I am a trauma survivor, and I would say I'm a survivor of complex PTSD. And that has impacted so many parts of my life and that includes friendships. And I would say, probably, similar to you, Dr. Monique, like seeing some of the choices I made, the connections that I made, when I was young. I can see some of the dynamics of how my trauma impacted those connections.

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  And, for me, particularly, it's really interesting as I've done a lot more of my own attachment work. I've noticed that my dad, my relationship with him, there was a lot of fear. There was a lot of panic. There was a lot of fawning. And what I have noticed is that I would say, oftentimes, my friendships were rooted more in not so much like, overtly, feeling afraid. But really having to live from a place where it's like, "If I can just keep them happy." And that was very much rooted in that trauma history. 

Like, "I just need to keep you happy." But the cost of that was that it was really hard for it to connect to deep places in my own self. And I would say that because of that, a lot of those friendships, what I ended up finding, not all, and I certainly will say that, not all. 

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But there were some experiences that I had where I was, unfortunately, put in some really vulnerable situations because of that dynamic in myself, and it's taken years. It's taken years and lots of self-compassion and lots of repair to be able to turn towards those dynamics, in myself, and to, lovingly, reparent the dynamics. 

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So that the friendships that I'm picking, I'm able to, I would say, similarly, again, to you, Dr. Monique, notice more quickly, oh, that's a no go for me. God bless you, but we're not going to probably go much deeper here and I'm going to just put my energy somewhere else. And, then, alternately, those places that there is nourishment, there is goodness, I feel a lot more capacity to follow through on that. And to believe myself, believe my own body, when my body is like, "Yes, that person is a yes." And it's been quite the journey.

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Alison: I just want to say I love what you're saying. I've had conversations with both of you offline and on the podcast about this fawn response. And I still, to this day, have to do so much work, inside of myself, to discern, "Am I doing this out of a fear response, because I cannot disappoint anybody? I cannot make somebody mad? Or am I doing this because I, genuinely, want to invest in this friendship or in this person?" That still takes me a lot of work, internally.

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And, so, I just want to name that. These are hard responses to shift out of. They're so conditioned in us, I think, especially, as women. I want to ask you, both, because you've touched on this. How do you discern? What are some of those concrete, I hate to use the word red flags because it's so cliché. But how do you begin to discern? You're beginning to walk into a friendship, and you begin to go, "Oh, this isn't feeling quite right. It just means I'm not going to invest my energy here."

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What are some of the things that you notice that give you those cues to proceed with caution or to take a U-turn out of the situation? And, also, how might you help a client? This is both from your own personal experience and how might you help clients begin to see those red flags?

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Monique: I think I'll speak from because I am sitting with someone, currently. Well, we're, probably, sitting with many someones, currently. But I am thinking of one specific client where we're having to do that work now. To be able to say, "Do you recognize how you are replicating that dynamic in this relationship?"

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And, again, like you say, it's so subtle and it's so easy to deceive ourselves. But with this particular person, I'm having to point to "What are you hoping is going to be the outcome here?" And, especially, because it is a relationship that she's trying to hold on to with that dynamic, and has already begun to recognize that there are some very toxic places in that relationship. 

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So it is one of those, "What are you hoping? What is the outcome here?" That's where I'm trying to get her focused. And, for myself, I've had to go there, too, to ask myself those hard questions. "Is this a person that you're hoping will validate you?"

"Is this a person that you do feel some sense or some need to say, 'Hey, I'm good, and will you like me?'" And you and I have talked, a lot, about the people-pleasing being, the PK growing up. So that is still very much a thing that I have to recognize and I have to really battle. And, to Aundi's point, a minute or two ago, it's exhausting when you have recognized that you have put your emotional energies in places where it's not been reciprocated. And when you get there, you're thinking, "Oh, my God, I'm exhausted and I'm lonely.

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So, for me, having to ask those questions, first and foremost, and, also, being quite aware that if this is not going to be, mutually, beneficial in terms of us kind of iron sharpening iron or being nourishing and emotionally healthy. I think, for me, that's one of the clues that I'm saying, maybe, I need to start backpedaling out of this and looking at it from a broader perspective to determine, "Okay, yes, I can go in."

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Or "Maybe, I need to deviate to another path."

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Alison: As a therapist, do you feel like, at times, what can happen is you can walk into a friendship where someone wants everything you have to give but doesn't reciprocate it?

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Monique: Oh, absolutely.

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Alison: So that's the red flag, is when you realize, "I'm giving a lot here and not a lot is coming back." When it's my turn to say, "Wow, I had a hard day." There's not much coming back, "I'm wanted if I'm there for them." That makes a lot of sense. I hear that one a lot, as well. And that can take a lot inside to recognize, "Oh, no, I'm worth more than that. I'm worth this two-way investment of relationships." How about you, Aundi?

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Aundi: Yes, well, I think you make some really great points, Dr. Monique, and I agree. I think that outcome piece is so good. Stepping back and seeing, like, "Okay, where will this go?"

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"What will this produce?" I think that's so helpful. Oftentimes, and I would say this, both, clinically, but also personally, things like the automatic responses to the person, I think, can tell a lot of information. So this feeling like, "Oh, if I don't do X, I predict this response from this person."

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And, now, certainly, there's some room there for caveats. Sometimes that's part of our own stories, too. Sometimes we're picking up cues that remind us of something, but it's not, necessarily, fully based in the present, so there's a lot of nuance. But, also, our bodies are very wise.

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And, so, one I think about is, oftentimes, those reactions to the feeling of why are you doing what you're doing? And it speaks a little bit, Alison, to that fawn response, too. I'm being generous to this person, but I'm doing it because I know that if I don't, I feel like I might be punished. Is a great example of the behavior itself is not bad, being generous is a good thing. 

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But if we feel like we have to be generous because the consequence will be that we'll be punished. There's an issue there and that speaks to the actual friendship, 

and if it's a healthy friendship itself. Or this person is in crisis, maybe, this person is in crisis a lot, and you can have compassion for that. But it's that feeling like, "I am the only one who can help them and I've been put in the situation to be the only one that can help them. All other offers or boundaries or anything else is rejected, and it's putting me in a situation where it's really hurting my mental health, it's hurting my well-being." 

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I think that sense of needing to be the caregiver, or for a client, they are being put in a position of being a caregiver. And a couple of others I think of is like situations where a friend is always wanting to fix it. You articulate just how you're doing and the person runs in and cuts you off at the pass, and it's like "Here's your three answers." Those experiences of, no, I just want to be a person. I just want to name how I'm doing. But all of these things remind me, ultimately, also how I feel when I'm with someone, and to me that's almost like the bigger thing. 

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Do I feel like I can exhale? 

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Does my body feel settled? 

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Am I always clenching? Things like that sometimes get me to those other pieces a little bit sooner, if I can pay attention.

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< Music >

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Alison: It's so interesting, and it can be subtle, the health or the safety can actually be subtle, and I say this to people a lot. Sometimes the sizzle is very deceptive. I don't want to say someone with a lot of charisma can't end up being a great friend. However, what I've noticed is that sizzle, that allure, isn't always the ingredient of a healthy friendship. 

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Just the other night, my husband and I noticed we were with another couple, and when we left, we were like, it was just what you said, Aundi, we both thought, "Gosh, that was so weird." I just felt like I could totally be myself, and it was so subtle. It wasn't like we'd had the world's best conversation. It was more just we left going, "Wow, that was just easy. It was relaxing." There's something there that I've learned to name and go, "Oh, that's interesting."

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Because you don't always feel that way with people. And when you've spent a lifetime being in that state, that activated state of, "Let me please you, let me show up." It takes a minute to detox from that and go, "Gosh, health actually just feels light." 

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The other thing I want to add, I've noticed, I've thought about this, is another paradoxical counterintuitive green flag, green light, is that if I feel the freedom to get frustrated. Or to feel like, "Oh, that's annoying, I've got to think about how to approach that with someone." Oddly enough, there's, typically, some safety there. If it's not safe to feel because that's normal in human relationships, in friendships. I've noticed, the less I feel safe to name something as, "Oh, that's a little annoying."

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Or "I don't know if I like that." That fawn part of me has reared up and says, "It is not safe. You have to only please this person." Which means I cannot even entertain a potentially negative, or a potentially frustrated thought about that person, and that was mind-blowing, to me, when I realized that, if that makes sense. 

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That if my system it's doing what you were describing, Aundi, that anticipatory, "I know how they respond, so I will just be this, this, and this." It's doing that calculated thing that's a huge red flag. As opposed to those normal human emotions. Where it's not like I unleash on somebody, but it's where there's safety enough for me to feel the full range of emotions inside my own body, about the relationship.

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Aundi: Yes, I think that's such a good point. I mean, I think about the safety that is needed to be able to repair, or to name just a reality. I often think about from a green flag perspective, people who give enough space, they give cues like, "But if you think differently, I'm open to that."

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Or "You might see this differently."

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Or "I'd be open to talking about that."

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Or "What are your thoughts on that?" All of those things, I feel like, invite a sense of, of course, you might think differently, and that's totally okay, and that just feels so safe to me.

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Alison: I love that. I think I experience a lot of that with both of you. I've noticed even, especially, Aundi, a couple of times, you and I will each feel some, 

I love you, you've used the word complicated emotions. Not necessarily about each other, but about something we're sharing, and that's such a neat way to name. That stirs up complicated emotions in me, which is me owning my own experience. But it also cues you to say, "This is a sensitive topic. Let's proceed, tenderly, with each other on it." I love that naming. That's been such a helpful naming, for me, in discerning trustworthiness.

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Monique: Mh-hmm. And I would say that that's what I discerned in you, Alison. I mean, and you know, as of right now, we've not met each other in person. So I often even think about that, that there has not been this embodied experience in real-time, if you will. 

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But even the ways that we have connected, that's exactly what I have gotten from you. And you know I told you, not too long ago, I said, "I just already feel like the day I meet you in person, I'm probably going to hug you and just boohoo." You're the one my soul has been looking for, kind of that feeling. Because the things that we talk about are very complicated.

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Alison: Yes, they are.

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Monique: And even when we had begun to engage deeper conversation, I said to you, "I'm almost in need of this corrective emotional type of experience." And I felt like, "Oh, God, I just threw a big burden in her lap." And I was like, "Oh, okay." But, to Aundi's point, you have the capacity to be able to say, "Wow, I'm okay with walking with you through this."

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As opposed to, "Oh, girl, you just got too much going on, and let me try to figure out a way to just, Mm, no." And, I think, that, to name it, as a green flag. You have the capacity. You have that emotional capacity. Meaning, for me, you're healthy enough to say, "I can listen to yours, it's hard. Yes, we need to proceed with this gentle caution, if you will." And, also, I can do the same with you, it's that reciprocal type of thing. So I think that that's what I discerned just even more immediately with you as well.

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Alison: And I felt the same, you were so honest. It just moved me how honest you were about the need that you were able to name. And, again, that sets us a healthy expectation of the friendship. And I also don't feel as if what you're saying to me is, "I need you to be perfect."

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You're saying, "I need a safe space for us to talk through some of these hard topics, together." Which, also, includes, sometimes, me saying, "I don't know if I'm going to get this right." It's just that we need to be able to have that baseline expectation that we're going to name some hard things, that meant so much to me.

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Monique: As well as me, and the older I get, I look for that or just try to discern that flexibility in people. Because if there is this role that I play, and I have always played, and if you don't fit that, then, we're really going to rub against each other in not-so-great ways. When I discern that, that's not there, for me, there is just kind of there's no need to even go any further here. I mean, we can be cordial, "Hey."

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"Hey."

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But in terms of trying to engage anything deeper, for me, especially, now at this point of life, it's like, "Nah, that's okay."

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Alison: The irony I want to share a little bit, Monique, is we had a conversation, offline, after we recorded your podcast on this show, last December. Where I shared with you my experience at that Christian camp. But I had never really talked about and, ironically, here I was, I don't know why it was just so traumatizing, to me, to be around a lot of Christians who were expressing, overtly, racist comments. 

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It really threw me, for several years, I was walking into it as a Jesus follower and left going, "I don't know what to make of this." And it was in a time before we were talking a lot about it, literally, before the Internet was a big thing to aid me. And, so, it was very lonely. And, so, meaning the reciprocation, you heard that story and honored that in me. And that was a powerful naming, for me, of something I'd never really named of what that's like. To be witnessing something that I didn't have the tools, at the time, to know what to do about. 

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I just knew I hated it, and I knew that it really, deeply, affected my own experience of the church at that time. We've held some space for each other in ways that have been deeply formative, to me, out of the naming you originally did, and I'm so grateful for that. I want to ask you guys, I think, this is a hard question, but it's an important one.

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We've talked about these green flags. I love that we flipped to green flags. We've talked about how you discern trustworthiness. We've also touched on needing to back out of friendships. How do you do that? When you begin to notice those yellow flags are there. That person's not going to be able to be there for you. How do you back out of that? What have you done? What would you tell people to do?

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Aundi: I think the first thing I would just say is that this is an incredibly complicated, potential, answer. When we are in a place where there is a friendship that exists, and what I mean by that is that there's a lot of nuance. Because in some situations it might look like this, and in other situations, it might look like this. And part of it is going to be dependent, also, on the health of the person we're interacting with, and, potentially, our own health and our own internal resources. 

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But this is something I think of, as you're saying, Alison, is a lot of times, boundaries begin with our yes. I say this a lot to clients. Boundaries are not about punishment. Boundaries are about really honoring what it is that you need, and that this is the place that we begin. And, so, when I think about friendships, I think about it like it's an adjustment of those boundaries, essentially. 

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That, whereas, maybe, we thought that we could have a little bit more flexible, slightly more porous boundaries with a person, through lots of cues. And we trust that our body is able, God gave our bodies so much wisdom to be able to discern, "This is not life-giving to me. I'm often feeling drained, I'm feeling hurt. I feel like this is causing me to have to spend more energy than I have the capacity for. It's not reciprocal." 

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These are all these kind of red flags. As we begin to discern that, I think that in some situations, depending on the person's level of health, it might be appropriate to have a conversation. 

Like, "Hey, in X situation, when this happened, that was really hard for me. That was hurtful. In the future, could you do X differently?"

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Sometimes when we perceive that person could handle that, I think, that might be good. There are going to be other times, and I've seen this, both, clinically and in my own life, where the person is showing such high levels of a lack of desire to being willing to take feedback. Where the boundary and, again, I think of you saying this, Alison, I think you say this so well. But, oftentimes, it's our behavior that, ultimately, communicates the boundary more so than necessarily the words that we are saying. That it's less about, "I need to have this conversation."

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It's more that, "I'm, unfortunately, not available this next couple of weeks." And that's the boundary. And, again, not from a place of punishment. From a place of wholeness and saying, "I need to honor myself, and in order to do that, here's how I'm shifting my priorities."

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Monique: Yes, Aundi, that's really good. I was in a situation, not too long ago, a couple of weeks ago. Where there was this invitation, and like you said, the wisdom in the body was like, "Don't go. Don't do this. Don't do it, Monique.

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And I'm thinking, "Okay." And I don't know exactly what, well, yes, I do, as we've talked about those trauma responses are just activated and there was this "Well, if I don't, this person is going to be upset." Or, sometimes, what has been directed at me, "Well, everybody can get together but you."

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It's been, "Oh, you're the one that's always missing." And I'm like, "Yes, that's not really true, but okay, why do you feel comfortable enough making me be that person? Are you having the same conversation with that other person that wasn't there the last time?" 

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Nonetheless, this is over the years, I went through that. If I don't go, I wonder, and will they feel? And, again, because I'm getting older, I do try to be very attuned to the Holy Spirit to see, should I be there because I don't want to take time for granted. So I factor that in as well. I do, and I'll say, "Lord, if this is supposed to not be about me, in this moment, direct me and just guide me.

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But in this instance, I didn't get that. And, so, finally, I said, "I am going to say no." And I did, and there was just such this sense of relief. But it was exhausting that there still are those times where you are having to tease through and say, to your point, Aundi, "How healthy is this person? Can they really hear me say, 'Oh, the last time I was in your presence, this is how I felt. Because of these things that were said or these things that were done.'" And when you recognize that people do not, necessarily, have that capacity and that flexibility to have that conversation. 

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Then I'm saying it's just not even worth the conversation. So there is just, "Oh, I can't make it today, I have something else to do." And if that something else to do happens to be taking care of me, then that's what's on my agenda, in that moment.

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Aundi: I love what you're saying, Dr. Monique. And, I think, especially, for Christians, this sometimes feels maybe like an uncomfortable statement. But I feel like you have to have a certain audacity to believe that you matter, you are worthwhile, you are worth that reciprocation. 

You are worth taking care of. It matters how you feel when you are with the people that you are with, and that doesn't mean that those other people don't matter. 

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Again, Jesus's words to love your neighbor as yourself, that includes yourself, and it needs to. Because, frankly, there is no mutuality without that peace and that's audacious. I think that there's something about that that for a lot of people, they're like, "Oh-eeh." 

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But, for me, as a trauma survivor, a commitment I've made to myself is to say, "No, you matter. There was a time in your life where it was not safe for you to matter and no more, that's over now." I'm not allowing the things that happened in my childhood, to the best of my ability, I choose to live my adulthood differently.

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Alison: Those are just such important words.

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***

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Alison: Sometimes what I'll liken a friendship breakup to is a breakup. And when you think about the model of a breakup, if you really have discerned, inside of yourself, "I am just not going to pursue this person anymore. There's really almost nothing they could do to make me want to invest more time and energy in there." I say to folks, that's when you use the actions, "It's not you, it's me." Because I don't have the capacity to invest, and I'm not sure the possibility is even there, to have that hard conversation.

If you're investing in that hard conversation of, "Listen, when you do this, this is hard for me." You are saying to that person, "I'm investing, I think, there's something here." And, so, it helps people to think about. It's actually not kind, if you don't have that capacity to really go there with somebody and walk through that hard journey of seeing if the friendship can change. 

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I mean, I love what you guys are saying, you do it for you. But one way because I'll have people say to me, "Well, isn't that ghosting them? If I just back out without the conversation." And the way that I look at that is, it's this decision where you're actually saying, "I've discerned I cannot invest more in this. 

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I can't do the work to make the friendship better. Therefore, I am going to move in a different direction." I might even name that, which, again, isn't ghosting, it's naming, "I've got this, this, and this that I'm saying yes to, this season of life, and I just don't have capacity to invest here anymore." And you don't have to tell them why, necessarily, maybe, that's to protect yourself from fallout. 

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Maybe that's simply just a decision because you just, legitimately, don't have the bandwidth, and that can be really hard for people. And it comes back, I love the word audacity. I think as Christians, sometimes, we think it's our job to, compulsively, please other people, and to never disappoint anybody, and to never let anybody down.

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And that if somebody else is disappointed or let down by us, we have committed a cardinal sin. And, instead, I think that biblically is to live really, authentically, aligned with the Spirit. I love that you said that, aligning with the conviction of the Holy Spirit, of " This is the direction I need to go in my life. I hope that you will support me in this, but if you don't there's just not much I can do."

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Monique: And I spoke about aging, not that I'm old, old. But I like the way Dr. Tony Evans always says it, "None of us really know who's old and who's young because none of us know when the Lord is going to say it's time to come home." So I like that. But as I have gotten older, and I so enjoyed hearing Aundi's story, definitely not the trauma, but hearing you tell it from a place. And when you recount it from this place of looking back, and the work that you've done, and the healing that has taken place. 

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I so enjoy listening to you speak of that because you can hear like, "Oh, this is the work that she has done to get over that fawning." Sometimes the language I use with clients when we talk about that freeze response, and that's been mine quite a bit, that one and the fawning. They're probably neck and neck crossing the finish line there. But I think about the freezing and the older I've gotten, I think, to myself, "How do I thaw? What makes me thaw?" 

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Even just imagining when you take something out of the freezer. What do you do? Do you just set it on the counter, put in the microwave? However, you look to try to defrost this thing and thawed it a bit. That's the picture that I have to keep in my min. Because it comes, literally, for me, the place of "God, teach me to number my days." And, so, many of my days. And when you were saying so much of my childhood was this way, and now as an adult, I'm choosing differently. 

And, for me, when I look back, so much of my life has been about pleasing everybody else and trying to keep everybody else happy. And it doesn't matter what I'm feeling, or rarely is their turn to say, "Well, what's really going on with you? No, you're saying you're okay, but, no, what's really going to." Just don't get that a lot. 

‍

So I say I have to figure out ways where I am nurtured, I'm nourished in relationship, and even if that means, for me, at this stage of life, fewer relationships that are more life-giving, then I'm all for it. I am all for it. Because I just cannot, I am at a place where I cannot live however many more days that I have, in that same state. And, so, I think that that's what keeps that little bowing mechanism underneath me. That fire that burns underneath me, to say, "I can no longer sacrifice any more of myself in that way."

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Alison: I love that. To wrap up here, you're leading right into this last question that I wanted to ask you guys. Which is, what would you tell your younger self, maybe, your 20-something self, your 25-self? I see by the looks on your faces. What would you tell your younger self about friendship based on all that you've learned, now? What would you want her to know?

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Aundi: I think the main theme that I would want my younger self to know, two things. One is I would want to encourage her to trust herself, to trust her body. To trust the messages that her body was giving her about different people in her life. Because having a history of trauma, it was easy for me to discount how my body was reacting, and somehow that would end up being like things that were not my responsibility became my responsibility. 

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They felt like they were my own fault because I didn't listen. Because in my childhood, it wasn't safe to listen to my body. So, therefore, then as an adult, when the red flags came up, I bypassed them. Because I thought, "Well, it just must be me."

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"It must be my trauma."

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"I must be so selfish."

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"You're right, I am the one who does X, Y, and Z."

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And not to say that I am perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I don't mean it that way. But I would love, if I could go back, and just really be with that younger self, to encourage her to really listen to that. And, then, the second thing would be to encourage that my younger self to know I have had a really healthy, great relationship with my husband, for a long time. He's been such a resource and gift to me. But friendships have been a little bit trickier. I'm now 40, and the last ten years, there's been so much goodness and growth. 

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But, I mean, I'm 40, I've lived a lot of time, and there's been a lot of pain around friendships. And it's almost like telling that younger self she deserves good friends. Yes, it makes me a little bit emotional to think about that younger self, and just that she deserves that, and to wait, and to know that she'll find it.

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Alison: Uh, that's real. That's beautiful.

Aundi: Yes, and to your point, too, Aundi, just a minute ago. When you mentioned we are to love God, and love others as we love ourselves. And I would want to tell my 20-year-old self that I love her, and I would befriend her, I think that would be you.

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Alison: Okay, now we're all a puddle.

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Aundi: Oh, that's so beautiful.

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Alison: Oh, my gosh. I just want to say you both have given my young 20, 25-year-old self a gift these past few years, in ways that I'm not sure I can even fully articulate. I've tried a little bit. One of the things I think about friendship is a good friend helps you see yourself in a new way. In a way that is like, "Oh, my goodness." And you both have done that for me. You've helped me see goodness in myself. Which sounds, again, paradoxical, or I'm assuming I do that for you, otherwise, that would feel very one-sided and narcissistic, I'm pretty sure I do. 

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Monique: Oh, absolutely.

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Alison: But that's remarkable, to me, because it's not just me mirroring other people. It's, oh, my gosh, here are two women who I leave conversations with them, and I'm seeing myself from a different angle. I'm seeing qualities in myself I didn't even really know were there. I knew were there, but they'd never really been called into being. We call each other into being, into more fullness of who we are. And, boy, that has just meant a lot to me from both of you. You both have been gifts, these last few years, to me. I have needed your friendships in ways I didn't know.

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Monique: I just want to say, too, Alison, that I thank you for bringing Aundi. Because, Aundi, I honestly think that my connection with you was Alison, originally, initially, especially, when you first did, the podcast with me. And you're also one of those that I just felt like, "God, I feel like I've known her before forever." Whatever the case may be, there have just been good things, Alison, that, yes, I have had the opportunity to experience you bear fruit in my life. And this, so far, has been fruit that has remained. It's been fruit that I've been able to not only just enjoy, but it has nourished and sustained me. So thank you.

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Alison: That's a really good note to end on. I love that. Is this a relationship that's bearing fruit? I love that. Because so often I'll talk about how we learn the fruit of the spirit as if they're things we are supposed to present to others. "I need to be good to others."

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"I need to be kind to others."

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"I need to be joyful for others."

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It's what I feel with both of you is I also feel those fruit toward myself, when I'm with you. I feel, "Oh, I can be kind toward that part of me."

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Or, "Oh, that part of me feels seen, now." And that feels so just deeply satisfying and joyful to me that someone has seen that part of me, that I've carried so silently for so many years. And, so, there's fruit internally that is borne by these friendships, 

and that might be a great benchmark for what is the fruit that this relationship is bearing in my life. And, especially, as kind of traveling down this road of getting to know somebody new, of testing out a new friendship. Of saying, "I see some good here." And then taking steps to say, "Oh, there's good fruit there." 

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Because, I think, with someone, that fruit will start to appear, fairly, quickly if those green flags are there. So I love that. I love that as a way to end, and I'm just so grateful for you both, and I really appreciate it. Thank you for taking the time to talk about this with me, today. I was so looking forward to this conversation, and it did not disappoint.

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Aundi: Thank you for having us.

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Monique: Yes, I carry you all with me, like Dr. Curt mentioned, "I carry you all with me." So thank you.

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Alison: I love that. Thank you guys.

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< Outro >

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Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you'd take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever. You listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode, and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

‍

I loved this beautiful and honest conversation about friendship with Jennie Allen, bestselling author of Find Your People and founder of IF:Gathering. She shares candidly about a painful season where she felt alone and how she's learned to lean into deep community, even when it's messy. If you've ever struggled with feeling lonely, misunderstood, or like it's hard to trust other people, please listen to this episode.

‍

There are so many gems in it, including:

1. Our greatest fear in friendship

2. How to say "that hurt" to a friend

3. What prompted Jennie to close off to friendship for a season

4. How she found her way into trusting relationships again

5. The healing power of knowing others & being known by them

Do you have questions for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

Want to receive free bonus content? ⁠⁠Sign up for my free weekly email here.

‍

Resources

• The Best of You Podcast question form
• ‍IF Gathering
• ‍Find Your People by Jennie Allen
• ‍Romans 12:15
• ‍James 5:16
• ‍Colossians 3:16
• ‍Galatians 6:2
• ‍The Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan
• ‍Jennifer Lawrence wins Best Actress at 2013 Oscars
• ‍‍The Center for Being Known Website‍
• Resources for support

‍

Related Podcast Episodes:

• Episode 58: How to Find Friends Who Bring out the Best of You, Why it Matters, and How a Good Friend Can Transform Your Life with Dr. Curt Thompson, Amy Cella, and Pepper Sweeney
• Episode 33: People Pleasing & Developing Your Own Inner Compass: Thoughts on Depression, Mental Health & the Church, and Finding Hope in Dark Places

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Visit hiyahealth.com/BESTOFYOU and get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults.
• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

‍

Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast. I'm so glad you're here, and I am so excited for this new series, Friends on Friendship. If you have questions about friendship, during this series, check out The Best of You Question Doc, we'll link to it in the show notes. I am going to devote the last episode of this series, to answering a few of your questions. 

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So I want to know what questions you have about friendship, about making new friends, about drawing new boundary lines, in older friendships. How to sustain friendships over time? Whatever your questions are, let me know, I'm going to devote the last episode, in this series, to responding to your questions. So find that doc in the show notes, The Best of You Question Doc, it's also on my website dralisoncook.com. So check the episode show notes for that link. 

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Listen, if you want to check out all the past series that we've done, you can go to our page on YouTube. It's on YouTube at Best of You Podcast, that's where you find it. So go to YouTube/atbestofyoupodcast and you'll see we've set up playlists for each series. 

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So if you want to check out, for example, the series we did on Psychology Buzzwords. Where we covered narcissism, and gaslighting, and some of the buzzwords, or if you want to check out the series we did on Boundaries for Your Soul, which is the Christian adaptation of Internal Family Systems. You can find all of those series over there on YouTube. It's a quick way to find a whole cluster of episodes that you might want to go back and listen to. 

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All right, so in last week's episode, Curt Thompson talked about confessional communities. These are these intentional groups of just a few individuals who commit to a structured way of meeting together, regularly, in an intentional way. The goal is to go deep. Where you really find a place to be seen, and heard, and known by other people who can really enter into life with you. And you can learn more about those groups over at Curt's website thecbk.org, we'll link to that in the show notes. 

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So, for today's episode, I wanted to talk to a new friend of mine and someone you all know, very well. Who's been a part of one of these intentional friendship communities. Where she has learned to take existing friendships and go even deeper. She's going to talk to us, today, about her experience being in an intentional friend group, and how it's changed her experience of friendship. There's so much to unpack in this episode, and I'm so thrilled to bring you my conversation today with Jennie Allen. 

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Jennie is a Bible teacher, she's an author. She's the founder and visionary of the IF Gathering, and she's the New York Times bestselling author of the book Find Your People: Building Deep Community in a Lonely World. I'm so excited to bring you this conversation, today, on friendship with Jennie Allen. 

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Thank you so much for being with us, today, Jennie.

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Jennie: So good to see you. It's so good to be here, Alison, thank you for having me.

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Alison: It's so good to be with you. I loved being at the IF Gathering this year, and I saw you just doing such an amazing job managing that event. Traversing that landscape of seeing your friends, of being in charge of the whole thing, and it was just really neat to get to be there with you. So thanks for having me.

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Jennie: It's great to be here. I'm glad you were there, too, that was fun to have you. Everybody was happy you were there. I hope you didn't get stuck in corners having to give free counseling to people.

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Alison: No, it was a really powerful event. I actually took some time, there was a lot of withness in it that was beautiful. And then I would take some time, and I went up, and I sat at the back of that beautiful church, we don't have churches like that where I am, here in Boston. So that whole church was just so beautiful, and I go sit up by myself, in the back, to just try to take the whole thing in. It was really powerful, just the whole experience of it. 

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So we're in a series, right now, on friendship, and we are just coming at it from all different angles. Last week we had our mutual friend Curt Thompson on, talking a little bit about friendship in his own life. We actually had a couple of his friends come on and join us.

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Jennie: Cute, I can't wait to hear that.

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Alison: It was hysterical, basically, they just gave him a hard time the whole time.

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Jennie: I love that. Yes, oh, that's so great.

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Alison: It was really fun because he talks so much and he teaches so much, but it was fun to get that little window into his-

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Jennie: Well, I will be listening and sharing that, for sure, with people.

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Alison: Yes, and he talked to us a little bit about intentional friendship and what he calls these Confessional Communities. And, so, I wanted to have you on because, number one, you wrote a book on friendship. But number two, I know that you're a part of one of those confessional communities. I was so interested, as I've read your books, and as I've learned about these Confessional Communities, and I'm piecing together the dots as I try to get to know who you are as a person. 

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You write, in Find Your People, about how being vulnerable with other people is a little bit hard for you. And, then, I know that in these past couple of years, you've been a part of one of these Confessional Communities. So I'm so curious how that's worked for you. So to start off, tell us a little bit about the Confessional Community and what that's been like for you.

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Jennie: Sure, yes, you definitely are sensing the correct tension. Because when I wrote Find Your People, I was not yet in the confessional community. That came shortly after I wrote it, but before, I believe, I released the book. So it has been a crazy two years with them. We have grown deeply together. 

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In fact, the book I'm about to be finished with right now, writing, largely will come out of that group and what I've learned with them, together and a lot of what I've learned from Dr. Thompson, too. Which I never call him that, but it feels appropriate when I'm talking about him as my teacher, and counselor, it feels great to call him that.

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Alison: I can only imagine his face.

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Jennie: He is just Curt to all of us. He's the lone boy in our group, and he has just been such a phenomenal leader. Pressing, really, that issue into my life of this is not an optional way to live. You have to be, one, in touch with what you are feeling and two, seen, known, loved, in those places in your life. Not just as a human, over dinner, that you have some people to hang out with, but that you actually share with them these parts that you're scared to say out loud. That you're scared to even admit to yourself. 

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And, so, he laughs at me a lot. He laughs at me a lot because he just sees me trying so hard, but also very resistant in that process because it isn't natural. I grew up in Midwestern. My mother was Midwestern, and my father had grown up in the military. So military dad, Midwestern mom, there weren't a lot of feelings in our house. 

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In fact, I was just with my parents this weekend and I was asking him questions, because the book I'm working on now is about our emotions and about our feelings. And, so, I asked him, I said, "Dad, am I right that I didn't have a lot of emotion as a kid?"

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They were like, "No, you never had emotion. You're right, you didn't have a lot of emotion. You were a really thoughtful kid. 

You were always thinking, and daydreaming, and probably creating," in my mind is what I remember as a kid. "And processing everything in great detail, but not feeling or a lot of emotions." And I just don't think they were modeled for me. 

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So, then, you meet Curt Thompson, who's all about feeling your feelings, and he presses you into a group of people that are very emotional, and longing to hear all my feelings. And, so, I was stuck, I didn't have an option. If I was going to be in this group, I had to show up, in that way, and it was scary. It's hysterical because, by that point, I'd already written the book. So I would say I had a steely focus about it, I wanted to do it, but it wasn't easy. It still wasn't easy.

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Alison: That's a great way to say it, "I had a steely focus, I was going to be vulnerable, by golly."

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Jennie: "Dang it, I'm going to do it." And that's kind of how I am, and in this book I wrote that story of just "I'm going to show up, and I'm going to do this thing, and I'm going to win it. I'm going to win it. I'm going to be so vulnerable." And I would say that has served me really well, of treating it as something to be intentional with, to choose to do it. 

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I think we wait, sometimes, to feel like sharing, or to feel like being known, or to feel safe enough that we can say everything, and that's not how it goes. I mean, honestly, the first time I really shared my story with them I got really mad at them, and I had my feelings hurt because the way they responded really hurt me. That's the first time I ever let down my guard and really did the work with them. 

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But what Dr. Thompson saw and knew was, "Jennie, what are you feeling right now?" And he could tell I was not happy with how they'd responded and, at that moment, I had a choice. I had to decide, "Am I going to say what I really feel? Which is that I'm mad and hurt." Or "Am I going to act like it was okay?" Because that's, typically, how we all function in life and, I think, that moment was a big turning point for me.

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Alison: I love that. I want to circle back to that, you said a couple of things, one, about structuring. I look at it a lot as structuring your support and I'm a big believer in that, especially, for women. Where a lot of my listeners, I relate to this, Jennie, it's I'm not the friend that will pick up the phone and be like, "I'm having a hard time." I think there are some folks who do that, that is not me. 

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So I have to have it on the calendar. And I tell people this, "I have to have it on the calendar, I have to have it scheduled, because I will meet a schedule, I will show up for an appointment, whether it's with a friend or whatever." And then when they say, "How are you?" It forces me to practice that discipline. 

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So that's a little bit of what I hear what you're saying and, I think, for everybody, that's really important. What's interesting, to me, is it almost sounds like you're saying, and again, I'm piecing this together, you're someone who pours out.  You're not someone who would ever, and you talk about this in Find Your People, too. I hear you talk about you are the person, you will open up your door if someone else were to call you in the middle of the night. 

But for you to be the one to show up with your need is far more challenging, far more difficult, and, frankly, it sounds like far more vulnerable. There's a reason there's that protective up. It's you want to be handled correctly. It's hurtful if someone doesn't get you, or doesn't quite understand what you're saying, or projects on you, that doesn't go over very well. That's hard, that's painful. It's not because you don't want that, it's because it's almost like you need them to get it right or it's going to be too hard. Is that fair to say?

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Jennie: Absolutely. I think one of my greatest fears and it, certainly, happened many times, in all of our lives, is being misunderstood. And that was something I really had to die to, to be able to do community in a deep way. I couldn't do what God was calling me to do, and that be my primary goal because it's not going to always happen. There's going to be, certainly, misunderstandings, in general, in any relationship that we have. 

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And, so, part of what Curt does with the Cohort that everyone can do, if they just do the work and choose to do it, is he really has us deal with not just what's going on inside of us, but what's happening in the room. 

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So in that moment, with me, when I was recoiling and he's giving me a chance to say what I felt, we began a conversation that was very different than the one we were having. Which was about my soul, it was about my being, it moved to about our relationships. And that's the place that we rarely move in relationships because if we move there, there's more at stake, it could really escalate. It could get worse. If you say, "You just hurt me."

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Now, one, you're already hurt. Now, you're even being more vulnerable, you're going deeper in, and you're saying, "What you just did really hurt me." And you're entrusting them with something sacred because now they have the chance to hurt you more. So why do that apart from this is how it was supposed to be? 

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When you look at the Scriptures. When you look at the "One another" verses, and you look at the "Mourn with those who mourn."

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"You are to confess sin to one another."

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"You are to admonish one another." That's a really pretty word that's not fun to live out. When you really look at these verses, "To bear with one another." These are messy practices. These are saying things like, "I will entrust you with that misunderstanding and that fear."

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"I will bear with you with your difficulty and not leave the room."

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"I will pour out the thing that I see that is hurting me and you might run." 

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It's making choices that are not easy and that's all through Scriptures. So it's supposed to be messy. A lot of what I talk about in Find Your People is this village mentality of, "This is how every generation has lived prior to the Industrial Revolution." Until the Industrial Revolution, every generation on Earth lived in a village, and even now, 80% of the world lives in villages. 

So this is the way it really was built for us on Earth to be. We need each other. And, so, you have agricultural needs, you have protection needs, you have schooling and educational needs that define a village, and that usually was about 150 people, tops, many times smaller. And then a new village would form because those needs would become too big for that village, and a new village would start. But you'd rarely leave within 20 miles, you'd never even travel further than that. So people had to work out their stuff.

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Alison: You're stuck.

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Jennie: You got to figure it out. You got to live together for your whole life, and we don't have that problem anymore. We can quit people like that. We can walk away from anything that's hard. And that commitment to stay, and the commitment to choose each other again and again, in spite of the mess. In fact, because of the mess, I think, that's what the Cohort has taught me more than anything is they aren't afraid of my hurt, or fear, or anger, or of my insecurity, or the thing that I'm saying that, definitely, doesn't look as good as Instagram looks, they're in. 

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One of the lines we say a lot to each other is we're not leaving the room. We're just not going to leave the room. So that really turns into pretty deep, safe work because when you don't leave the room, and you're talking about the deepest parts of yourself, and the hardest parts, you actually can start to take ground. But we miss that part because we're afraid of it.

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****

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Alison: What did friendship look like for you before this, even back in your 20s. You're a young mom, what did you think of friendship back then?

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Jennie: I actually had it, I was very vulnerable. I remember when my husband's best friend met me, he told my husband, "I think I met your wife." 

                        And the thing he said about me is, "She wears her heart on her sleeves." And I was that girl. I was the girl that was safe, and I wanted to be close to people. I shared everything, they shared it with me. 

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I look back at my relationships prior to a season, I'll tell you where it changed, but that girl was as vulnerable, and passionate, and safe as she could. But, then, nobody will be surprised by this, it was being a pastor's wife. 

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All of a sudden, many of the things I would share would be used against me, and would be spread to other people, and I just learned there's very few people I can trust. And in that way, I think, all of us, probably, hit that point in our life, at some point, sometimes, sadly, very young and I just closed up. And not that I never opened up to anybody, but I was just so careful and it was easier to just help other people. 

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And, so, we walked through really dark season, around 2014. Where every part of our lives was caving in, every single part. And I look back at that, and I think one of the reasons it was so hard is because I didn't tell people. Zac was pastoring, I didn't know how to tell people. And it wasn't one thing, it was every part of our lives. 

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And, so, I look back at that and I feel so sorry for her. I feel so sorry for her because she was doing everything she could to keep her family intact, and take care of a new child that we had home, a four years old, from Rwanda, it was just too much. And I didn't know how to ask for help, at that point. And I think that we all go through those seasons where, for some reason, we decide we can't trust people.

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Alison: Yes, I hear it so often. Just everything you're saying, I'm like, "Yes." Every woman who comes through my practice, there's this similar theme of some point in time, where it was just... and when you said pastor's wife, I just thought, "Oh, gosh, have I heard..."

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Again, that village, when that village of which you're a part, whether it's a church or whatever it is, whatever village where you get hurt and it is too painful. And I love what you said, it was so true and so powerful, what we do is we just hide. We hide our own pain and focus on helping others. 

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This is everything I do when I'm working with women. We hide behind that mask of "I'll just help others." Which works for a while, but until you just can't do it anymore and you need help. And, so, I appreciate so much for sharing that. What did you do? How did you change that? How did you come out from underneath that?

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Jennie: Well, I still am, candidly, and one thing that I write a lot about in Find Your People is the great friends God gave me in the last season of my life, and it wasn't just the Cohort. But before that, it was a few friends here and one of them is named Lindsay, and she just would not have it. 

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I mean, we could not be together for two hours and her share about her life, and I not share about mine. She was going to pull it out of me, and she would not settle to hear that everything was fine. 

She was going to fight for what was really there. And I think having someone that really saw me, that wasn't going to settle for that was, certainly, helpful and the precursor to that, and I know not everybody has that. 

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To some degree, we all have to choose and be that person if we want it in our lives. There's very few Lindsays in the world. There's very few people that will pursue you that ferociously because she really did, and I'm grateful for that. Because I really needed that in that moment, in my life, because I had felt so unsafe and that helped me. 

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But I do think at some point it had to become a choice, and I had to just start to be honest with myself and, candidly, when I first started telling them about the hard parts of my life, it just felt like complaining. I really didn't see anything positive that could come from it. It just felt like, "I'm going to vent to you; and you're going to walk home, and do your bit, and I don't see the purpose." I do not feel that way at all anymore, today. 

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I mean, years later, now, I see that all the things that you are feeling that you're not allowing to surface and to be known in community with other people, all of it is there. You can say you're fine but you're not fine, it's all sitting right there. 

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And, so, just learning the power and the freedom that comes from just getting it out and, sometimes, that doesn't go well, and I've learned that's okay, too. Part of the joy for me, and the freedom for me, is just to say it, to not hold it in. And I can even handle it being misunderstood now, and it hurting because the value, to me, has gone so far up that I don't want to miss it because a few people can't handle it or handle it wrongly.

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Alison: Yes, that's part of the fruit. As you learn how to let people in and you find a couple of safe people where it goes well, you build that tolerance. You build the reserve for the times when it doesn't go well. The thing about venting that's so interesting, as you find safety it's not venting, it's a quality you have to experience. It's a quality until you know it, but I want to name it for folks who are listening.

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When you vent to someone and it's the unhealthy kind of venting, they join with you in it, and it just goes a negative spiral down. They're joining you going, "Yes." And we're becoming, I call it, we become common enemies, we hate the same things. That is not good for your nervous system, it's not good for your mind. 

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What you're talking about, and it's so true, is when you unload and you say, "This is what I'm really feeling." In that safe place, with that person who says, "I'm with you, I hear you, I see you. There's no judgment, there's no shame, I'm with you. I'm not going to try to fix you or solve it for you, necessarily. I'm also not going to join with you and go down the negativity." 

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There's this way in which when you're witnessed, in that way, and then you do that for another friend, that all that stuff is released, and it creates a virtuous cycle. A cycle of positivity where we both feel better, we have better creativity, we know better. 

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Our nervous system is more in that calm, clear state where we actually make wiser decisions it doesn't descend. And we can experience that, too, sometimes, and now you know the difference. You're like, "Oh, wait a minute, I just shared and that person wanted to go all the way negative with me. That's not actually what's helpful to me, I'll scale it back next time with that person. But I know what it feels like when it's life-giving." And some of that is trial and error, that's what you mean by messy. 

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Some of that is figuring it out and, then, as you have those positive experiences, you build those reserves, you build that muscle that says, "Okay, I understand." Wisdom, really, it's the beginning of wisdom that only comes through checking it out. I want to pause on, you talked about how Lindsay, a friend, came into your life, and pursued you, and taught you that. And now you can look back and go, "That's what was happening."

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Sometimes when women come to me and they're really stuck, and they're in it, I will say "You might need to reach out to a professional to get support." Whether that's a therapist, whether that's a spiritual director, whether that's a pastor, where you are getting that back to baseline enough. So that you have that tolerance to do the messy work of trying to find friends. 

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I don't view therapy as a replacement for friendship and, sometimes, I think that can happen. I was just curious, I wanted to ask you about that because there's two things going on. I'm a big believer in structuring your support, having those professionals as you need them, especially, if you're working to build up your friendship muscle because it takes time and it's messy. And also for other things in life, it's just healthy to have those. 

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And I also get concerned, and I'm saying this as a therapist, I've heard about this, I said, really, our job is to work ourselves out of jobs, in a way. Because the more people are in these really intentional communities, the less they need us, we're just the stopgap. Trying to get people back into healthy communities, that's where the joy is, that's what God wants. Our job is to have you all need less of us. 

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That being said, we need the experts. We need that safe place that therapy provides, that other disciplines provide. But really what we need is to find our way into these healthy friendships, so there is a tension there. I'm just curious, your experience with that. Have you, at times, needed to go outside of the friendship group to get yourself to a place where you could; do you resonate with what I'm saying? Does that make sense to you?

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Jennie: Yes, you know what it makes me think of is when we're children and how much we are learning about relationships. And how much we are learning about how to conflict, and how to make a friend, and how to ask for help, and how to be needy and not too needy. 

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All those things are really supposed to be learned in a really healthy family structure. Which I know I'm preaching, literally, to the person who writes the books about this. But how many people, I more speak from a place of ministry, similar to you, in a way, because there is, certainly, lots of people are talking to me as if I'm a counselor. They're coming to me with their problems. 

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And, so, I'm getting insight and glimpses into so many people's lives. And I would just say how I discern that for someone else is when I see that there is a big breakdown from childhood or a big breakdown in life. Where it's like what you do is you pay for a friend. You pay for someone to help you learn to do those things that you didn't really learn in childhood. And, so, it's hard and sometimes, it's so sad because the number of emails I get and the number of conversations I have with people. Who just will say, "I've tried 15 people."

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"I've done this twelve times." They have given their life to trying to find deep community and they just can't. And that to me, is when you need to go, "Okay, maybe." And it's not even something to be frustrated with yourself about because that's not your fault. But the fact that you really didn't, it's not easy to be a friend or it seems to be that it's not being received by other people. It's probably a breakdown in just your own experience, that you haven't gotten to learn and mature in ways that maybe other people have. 

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And, so, again, you're so good about this, of just the compassion to have for that part of yourself that didn't learn that and then to choose to learn it. And, so, for me, I would say I was blessed with a pretty healthy family. Certainly, like everyone, we had some pretty big breakdowns, in our family, that I've had to work through, but that is a gift in itself.

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I always tell my dad, he's hard on himself because I write sometimes about him and he's like, "Gosh, I feel like the bad guy in your stories." And I was like, "No, Dad, you are actually the one everybody relates to because you didn't parent perfectly. And you left room for me to need God and to have to find my own way, in a lot of places, and we're really healthy and good today."

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And, so, we've just got to go, "Okay, we all have been given a different set of circumstances." And that's why I love counseling so much because it helps close the gap where maybe you feel a maturity lack in an area. I'm watching this with my kids right now, and it helps close that gap to where you don't feel confused when emotional things are happening in the room, and you don't know what to say, and you don't know how to handle them. If that's you, I would just say there's probably a little emotional maturity gap, somewhere you missed that class.

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Alison: Emotional regulation is a skill you have to learn and if you didn't learn it, you got to learn it. And a lot of times you might need to learn it before you can be successful at it in a friendship.

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Jennie: And, in my experience, unlearn some things, too, learn some things and unlearn some things. And I'm watching, it's really fascinating to see your kids do therapy. I mean, it's terrifying, and we always joke, "We're saving money for therapy." And when they got old enough, almost every one of them has taken us up on it and I love that. And they come home and they tell me what they're learning and it's like watching someone feel a lot of feelings. Move to someone who can articulate why, what they are, what they need, it is so beautiful, and it really does bring maturity. 

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So that has been a big part of my story, but I hope it's a part of everybody's story. I'm known for writing about, podcasting about this line right here, "Every person needs a counselor." I really believe that and, I think, it can come, just like you said, in many forms. 

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But we all need someone to help us see things in an honest way that we may not see about ourselves, and to help us see what we're missing. Because no one has arrived on the scene of perfect emotional health, or relational health, or spiritual health. So we all need voices to help garner that out of us. 

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And, so, sometimes, it might be a mentor and not a paid therapist. But for a lot of people, these days, with the mental health crisis, and where we are, sometimes, many times, it needs to be a paid therapist.

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Alison: I love how I'm the therapist saying, "We really need friends." And you're the ministry [Inaudible 00:31:39] everyone needs-

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Jennie: Needs a therapist.

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Alison: One of the things that struck me at the IF Gathering, when I was there, it's the first time I've been to one live. And other than being from a part of the country where the whole thing was just like "How does this exist? Does this number of people...?" It's just a totally different kind of experience of gathering here in New England. But it was the way the body of Christ works together. 

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And, so, I was sitting there, and one of the things, and this is Jennie, I think, being in ministry, being a therapist, there are real overlaps. In the sense that as a therapist, when I'm at something people see me as a therapist, and I'm just a woman. I'm just a woman who's feeling shy, who's feeling awkward, who's like, "I don't know how to connect to people." 

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I have this huge protective ability because I can just make it all about you, and that's how I will cope. But, really, that's just a cover for "I don't know what to do in this group of women." Any more than what we were talking about when you're the pastor's wife and it's just easier to be the one pouring out to everybody else. Than acknowledging, "I don't trust anybody here." That kind of thing. 

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So, anyway, I was sitting there going, I was wrestling with all of that. And there was this amazing moment where all of these women came forward, it was unbelievable. It was this beautiful moment, all of these women came forward to have an encounter with God, with Jesus, and it was amazing. And the therapist part of me clicked in and I was like, "This is amazing."

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I thought, "How are we going to get all these people counseling?" 

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Because when we, you and I both know this so well throughout the course of being on planet Earth, for a few decades. That we have these amazing, and I've been through it myself, and I've been through it with so many people. We have this amazing encounter with Jesus. We come to know Him, and we come to love Him and, then, I just know all too well, I'm like, "Oh, gosh, all that stuff we have to unlearn, all that baggage, all that pain." Then we go into churches, churches are filled with messy people. 

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And, so, much of how I see my work is to keep people going in that process. I was just talking to John Mark Comer about this. Where we're supposed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Salvation can also be translated as wholeness, as healing, we have to work out our healing. It's not a one-time event, it's an ongoing process of working it out. And, so, that's what I see in that moment, and I was just struck with the body of Christ. I was like, "Oh, I can't do what Jennie does."

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I mean, this gift that you have to gather these millions of women and to reach them with the gospel. But I do know what I can do, and that is I can get busy and keep putting out resources to help folks keep walking in community. We're all doing the same thing, we're just looking at it from different angles. 

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So that's a little bit of a segue, but I love that, and I just wanted to name that. That was a really beautiful moment, for me, because we can feel siloed from each other. There are folks in church ministry, there are folks pastoring, there are therapists, when we're really all about pouring into the body of Christ. That's what we're all trying to do from different angles.

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Jennie: Well, let me say something about that because when you were saying that, even my life can feel siloed. I can feel like, "Well, why am I?" We're now working on a gathering that's different from IF Gathering, and it's costing me a lot of time and energy. And, yesterday, in the middle of a meeting about it, they looked at me and said, "Well, what is your new book about? Is it about this?"

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And I was like, "No, it's about emotional health." And I started spiraling, and what am I doing, and, immediately, though, my brain went, "No, I'm doing the same thing." What you said about emotionally healthy people and it being messy, ultimately, we're all doing the same thing whatever we're doing. 

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We're trying our best to feel our way to God, together, that's what we're doing, and we're trying to go home. I mean, anyone that believes in heaven, and Jesus, and the story of the Bible, then we know that this life is short and that everything we do in it is meant to matter. Not because in its essence it's spiritual, but because everything matters because it's all going home to heaven. 

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And, so, when I look at Pilgrim's Progress, which is one of my favorite parables of what we're talking about. The guy becomes a Christian early on and he just falls into the Pit of Despondency, and the Castle of Doubt, and gets attracted to all the addiction stuff at Vanity Fair. And, so, you just see all these moments where you're going, "Come on, dude, get it together." 

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But then you look at your neighbor and you're like, "Come on, dude, get it together."

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And then they look at you and they're like, "Come on, Jennie, get it together." So it's just rather than viewing life, I've just learned, rather than that being my mentality of like, "Let's just get it together." It's just like, "Well, let's just pilgrim well together."

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"Let's progress well together."

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"Let's just get on the road together with all of the people in the pit, and me in the doubt castle, and someone that I love addicted. Let's just crawl our way to each other and crawl our way to God."

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And I think that is different than what we think it should be, which is running, perfectly, a straight line in life, with no problems, and straight to Jesus. As if that would help anyone, give me a break. Nobody even wants to hear that story. That's not even a good story, more or less someone that you would even like. We like the people that have struggled, that are struggling. We are drawn to the people that are vulnerable and admit their weakness. 

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I always think of Jennifer Lawrence because she's a real likable actor and actress, and when she falls... I mean, it was before anybody knew her, and it was one of her first award shows, and she falls up the stage, in her beautiful gown. And she gets up and she laughs and dances a little, and she wasn't a big star at the time. 

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But that was the moment the world fell in love with Jennifer Lawrence. It wasn't because she took that award gracefully and she said the perfect speech. It was because she fell and laughed at herself, and we just got to have more of that in our life. We got to have people that do that in our lives, and it just helps everything go together. It's like if we can simplify it all down, so we are feeling our way to Jesus together, feeling our way home, and helping other people do it, it makes everything simpler.

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****

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Alison: My husband always has this saying and I love it. He says, "We are all sitting at the children's table." And it's kind of true, we're all just sitting at the children's table try to muddle our way through.

But the point is, to use the phrase that you guys use, "Let's just not leave the table. Let's sit here together, and sometimes it's going to be fun and sometimes it's going to be super messy. Sometimes we're going to really help each other." 

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And, again, I think, this goes without saying, but I am going to say it because I know people will raise it. When there's toxicity, there's that piece I love in Pilgrim's Progress where they are harming him, that's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about when it's falling into toxicity, then, it's time to get up, and move, and get out of the line of fire. 

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We're not talking about shaming each other. We're talking about the messiness of being imperfect humans, trying to muddle our way through friendship and community together. And that being a lot of what it means that we're bringing heaven here on earth. We're not going to go up in the sky. I always think of N.T. Wright stuff; we're not going away in the sky to be disembodied spirits where we live in silos. We will be with each other for all eternity and it will, hopefully, be a lot easier and a lot lovelier. 

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And, so, part of that glimpse that we get now is braving the messiness of figuring out how to say, "That hurt me." To a friend or of figuring out how to say "I need you." To a friend. Or how to figure out how to pick up the phone and go "I am not doing okay." And having that friend maybe not handle it correctly but say, "Hey, I really need you to try to get this." That's the work of being a part of this body of Christ, of being in this together. 

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Jennie, what would you want your younger you, that you that got stuck and buried in your pain? What would you want her to know, now, based on what you've learned at this point in your life?

Jennie: Well, my therapy is about to show. I would have so much compassion on her, and I would just be so proud of her. If I could talk to her I would just say, "You know what, you are handling so much and you are doing it really well. And in this season you're having to be a Navy Seal, that's Navy Seal Jennie right there and she's having to survive because every single part of her life was broken, and it was not caused by her." And, so, I just think largely it wasn't. I just feel for her and I'm really proud of her.

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And I would say, "It's okay to tell a few people that. It's okay to let that guard down with a few people, and if they don't work out, try a few more. I wish she wasn't so alone." It's interesting, some of my friends, today, are going through things, almost, to the T that I was going through at that time. And, again, I talk about some of these things. It's things like my husband was in such a deep depression that he couldn't work, he couldn't help. I was, basically, single parenting him and our kids for a season of life, and it was also a season that many difficulties were in our life. 

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And, so, I had to be okay. And I just feel really sad that she felt like she had to do that alone, and I would want her to have people. And it's been so fun to be able to be that friend to people that were me.

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Alison: Yes, I love that.

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Jennie: And they are so vulnerable and I feel sorry for that part of me, every time we're there for them because it's so helpful and it's so healing to them. And I'm sad that she didn't have that in the way that my friends have that, and it's, obviously, not just me. I'm not crying because I'm that good a friend, there's a lot of us around this person. But I wish I'd been brave enough to be honest about it because it really does change things. It really does help your heart, and your soul, and your nervous system, all of it. Your brain, it heals. 

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I saw this video, recently, I will send it to you, Alison, because if you haven't seen it, you'll love it. But it's a video of the neuropathways. It's two neuropathways finding each other and they're working so hard. But it'll just melt your heart because it's just a close-up, and it doesn't look like they're going to find each other and connect, but they do. 

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And anyone that's been listening for a while, I'm sure you have talked about this, that that actually heals our neuropathways, or Dr. Curt Thompson has because he teaches me this. Those little guys, actually, come back together, and work better, and places in our brain reconnect. 

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And, so, I really don't believe we are built in such a way to heal without people. We have to have people to heal, God built us that way. And, so, it's just the way it is. And, so, you can deny it, but you won't get more healthy. You can pretend it's okay, but you won't heal. When you are safe, and seen, and soothed with a group of people wherever and however you get it, it does begin to heal everything about us.

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Alison: I love that. I love that your own compassion for that version of you that was alone is finding a sort of healing in, now, being able to show up for others. That's the beauty of when we let people into our pain, it's not just about us. We're also giving a gift to someone else other than-

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Jennie: Yes, I feel the gift of it when I'm with my friends that are telling me what they're going through. It just feels like a privilege to be there and to hear it. I never get tired of it, I really don't. I really just feel the joy of being with someone in their suffering. There really is a joy in it, I can't explain it unless you've lived it.

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Alison: It's holy ground, that's the only way I can put it. That's why the work of being a therapist like we get to walk into holy ground. There is something about that moment. And, again, it's not that you're happy that someone is going through this, it's painful. But there's something about where someone is being so honest and you're with them in that, that is really close to the heart of God. It's just sacred soil. 

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So I love that. I love that you're able to empathize with that part of you and allow her to be a part of changing that for others, that's so beautiful. Jennie, as we close today, I ask everybody this, what is bringing out the best of you, right now?

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Jennie: I mean, I know this has been the theme of this show and our conversation, but it's that cohort, it really is. I think they have taught me to even enjoy the parts of me that I used to resent or feel ashamed of. And, so, when you say that the best parts of you, and I know, and I've read your work. I know that what's bringing out the best in me, right now, really, are those parts that I haven't loved and I haven't really shown many people on Earth. And the practice of doing that with people that are fighting for me to do that, has been life changing. 

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I would say, right now, too, and I'm going to turn this back on you. Because I would think, if I were listening to this, I would want what I have, what we're talking about, but I wouldn't know how to get it. And, so, I would just turn this back to you because I don't want anyone to leave and hear my story, and feel like it's not accessible to them.

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Alison: Yes, how do we go about helping other people get into these types of friendships? What I always say to people is there is a five-pronged approach. Number one, if you're really hurting, and as you said, Jennie, is it's been so hard for you, get a therapist that's the best place to start. Because you're going to learn to work through why it's been hard for you to be in healthy relationships while you're in a healthy relationship. You can't learn it by yourself. You have to have someone that's what therapists are for. 

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So get a therapist, number one, to just anchor you in your goal. Make that your therapeutic goal, "I want to learn how to have healthy friendships with other people." And you can also get in other intentional relationships like that, that are more one way. 

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I always talk about one-way relationships. Where it's a therapeutic relationship, or a mentoring relationship, or a pastoring relationship where someone is pouring into you. The goal being, though, to learn how to have healthy two-way relationships, these two-way friendships. And then I am a big proponent of, and that's why I love these Confessional Communities, I think there are other ways to do them, of structuring them. 

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And, so, if you don't have, we've talked a little bit about Confessional Communities, what I do in my own life is I have different Zoom calls with different friends. I have a monthly Zoom call with my sister and my two childhood best friends. We don't live in the same part of the country. We have to have that on the calendar where we are regularly. We don't have a fancy structure for it. We know how to go deep together. So if you've got those friends, get it on the calendar, be intentional about it. 

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And then there's the whole middle ground of just naming things. Someone you like to walk with, someone you go to the grocery store with, naming, "Hey, could we be intentional about going a little bit deeper together? I'm reading this book or I listened to this podcast. Would you be willing to listen to it with me? Let's talk about it." Naming something with folks. 

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Because a lot of times we're sitting there talking to somebody and we're both shooting the breeze about things that don't matter, and we both are longing to go deeper and we don't know how to do it. So just be the one to name that. Share Find Your People, share this podcast, "I want to do this more intentionally." Just start talking about it, there's so many different ways to do it.

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Jennie: Mh-hmm, I love that. Yes, and it's been so fun because the book has been out for about a year, Find Your People, has been. How many people became friends just by reading the book together. I think there is something so special and beautiful of just saying, "Hey, would you want to do this together?" 

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I love that one because, maybe, I pictured it after it was done, barely. But I wrote the book challenging people to go do this, not thinking that people would come around the very material and actually become friends, so you're right. I think, sometimes, we just need someone's help to start the conversation in a deeper way. And maybe that's where you and I can come in, then, with resources of "Here, do this, and it'll help you go deeper."

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Alison: It'll help you. We'll link to the book, it's a great book. It has all sorts of practical tips on how to gather people, how to find friends, how to keep them. I have an article I will link to Seven Ways to Increase Your Support Network, that teaches you how to get a therapist, because that can be hard. All the way through just beefing up different ways of getting support, we'll link to all that. We're going to continue on in this series.

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Jennie, thank you. Thank you for sharing so much of yourself. Thank you for doing this work behind the scenes that informs everything you put in front of us. We are so grateful for you, thank you.

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Jennie: So good to see you, Alison.

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Alison: Thank you, Jennie.

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< Outro >

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Alison: Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you'd take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday and remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

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I'm so excited to announce our brand-new series, "Friends on Friendships"! Join us over the next 5 weeks as we learn together how to forge transformative, healing, and life-giving friendships.

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We are kicking things off with an incredible conversation with Dr. Curt Thompson, Amy Cella, and Pepper Sweeney, who are real life friends and hosts of The Being Known Podcast. We laughed so much this episode, and at least 2 of us also cried 🙈 . You don't want to miss all the gems about friendship throughout this conversation.

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Here's what we cover:

1. Why friendship is risky

2. The most important ingredient for safe friendships

3. The physics of "taking your friends with you" (even when they can't be with you.)

4. Laughter as intimacy

5. Why 3 is most definitely not a crowd

6. Glimmers vs. Triggers

Check out Curt's brand new book The Deepest Place, available for preorder.

Do you have questions for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

Want to receive free bonus content? ⁠⁠Sign up for my free weekly email here.

‍

Resources

• Check out Curt's brand new book The Deepest Place, available for preorder now.
• Learn more about Confessional Communities ⁠⁠here⁠
• ‍The Being Known Podcast
• ‍The Soul of Desire by Curt Thompson, MD
• ‍The Center for Being Known Website
• "Hence we picture lovers face to face but Friends side by side; their eyes look ahead." -C.S. Lewis
• ‍Genesis 2:25
• ‍John 13:35
• ‍More on IFS by Richard Schwartz, PhD
• Being Known Podcast on Youtube
• ‍Resources for support

‍

‍Related Podcast Episodes:

• Episode 20: Making Peace with Yourself (& Facing Your Fear of Disappointing Other People)
• Episode 27: 7 Ways We Manage Perceptions Instead of Forging Real Connections

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Wild Health has opened 10 spots in their Premium Program for BEST OF YOU listeners. Visit ⁠www.WildHealth.com/Premium⁠ to apply for membership.
• Check out Nuts.com/bestofyou. You'll receive a free gift and free shipping when you spend $29 or more!
• Get 35% off your first order of Sundays. Go to SundaysForDogs.com/BESTOFYOU or use code BESTOFYOU at checkout.Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Transcript

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Alison: Hey, everyone. I'm, Dr. Alison, and I'm so glad you're here to discover what brings out the best of you. This podcast is all about breaking free from painful patterns, mending the past, and discovering our true selves in God. I can't wait to get started as we learn, together, how to become the best version of who we are with God's help. 

‍

Hey, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast. Where we are starting a brand new series I am so excited about. The series is called Friends on Friendship. We're going to take a deep dive into all the different nuances of friendship. I've invited some of my own friends on, some new ones, some, really, old ones that I've had for a really long time. 

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We're going to talk about how to make friends. We're going to talk about how to learn when a person is trustworthy. We're going to talk about what to do when you need to move away from a friendship. So we're going to cover a whole lot in this series. It's a great way to kick off the summer, and I'm so excited to have Curt Thompson, along with his friends Pepper Sweeney and Amy Cella on the podcast today. 

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Curt Thompson is a psychiatrist and interpersonal neurobiologist. You know him as the author of The Soul of Shame, The Soul of Desire, and he has a brand new book coming out this August called The Deepest Place. I had an opportunity to preview the book. It's a powerful look at suffering and hope you can preorder it now. It's such a great book, super excited about that. 

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He also hosts The Being Known podcast with Pepper and Amy, and I had a chance to get to be a fly on the wall. When I was at a conference that Curt puts on each year, and see their friendship in action, and it's what gave me this idea. To not only just talk to Curt about friendship, but to invite him on with his friends, so that they could talk, together, about what it's like to work together, to create together, to share joy together, to share struggles together. 

So I'm just so excited they're here to kick off this series. In this episode, there is a moment where I'm surprised by the fact that I get moved to tears a little bit, and I name it to them and I can't figure out what's happening. And as I thought about it, a few days after we recorded, I realized that I was having what we call a glimmer. 

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Glimmer is a nervous system response that's the opposite of a trigger. When you think about yourself being triggered by someone, it's usually negative. It usually activates you in a negative way. Well, a glimmer is my version of going to an art museum. 

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Some people go to an art museum or they go out into nature, and they see beauty, and it prompts them to just see the glory of God. "Wow, God, how did you make that beautiful tree? Or that whale?" I went whale watching, recently, and I was just amazed by how did God create these whales? Or you go to an art museum and you see a beautiful piece of art or something that just prompts you to be transported into a place of wonder, a place of beauty. A place of awe, and it can take us to an experience of just joy in being part of God's creation that is just so magnificent. 

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As I thought back over it, I think, in that moment in the episode, I was just having a glimmer. Just the joy, and the playfulness, and the levity that was spilling out of their connections to each other was spilling over onto me. It was just really beautiful and a really lovely moment, and I was grateful to have this opportunity to share that with them. 

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So, without further ado, I am just so excited to bring you my conversation with Curt, Pepper, and Amy to kick off this new series, Friends on Friendship. 

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< Music >

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So we're starting this new series on friendship, and I was thinking about friendship and I thought to myself, "I don't want to teach about friendship; I want to try to show it." And I thought about you, Curt, because while you may not use the word friendship to describe what you're doing, I really think a lot of what you're doing is about creating intentional friendship. I think you call it Confessional Communities, you call it connection, you call it being seen, being known. Everything you do is this idea of being known, and isn't that what friendship, at its heart, is about. 

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And, so, I couldn't think of anybody better to have on but you. And then I got a chance, back in October, when I got to come to your conference held through The Center for Being Known, where I was a speaker, to not only learn from you but to witness you with some of your friends. And it honestly moved me, personally, to see the three of you behind the scenes, finding so much joy in this work that you do together. That almost moved me more than reading about a treatise on why friendship is important, as helpful as that is. 

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And, so, I thought to myself, "I want to have the three of you on to talk about that." I want you to touch, Curt, on this idea of Confessional Communities because I love it. Actually, next week, I'm going to have someone on who has benefited from an Intentional Confessional Community that you helped her to set up. You are really going out in the world, trying to get people to be more intentional about bringing people around them in ways that really God wants us to. 

So I'm going to stop now. But that's my prelude to why I wanted not only you, Curt, but Pepper and Amy, who I don't know as well, I'm excited to get to know. But most of all, just having observed and witnessed and been a silent, quiet, witness of this friendship that you have really ministered to me. It changed me. It inspired me to go out and try to do more of that. 

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So with that in mind, tell me a little bit, Curt, let's start with you, about what you think about friendship. Why you think it's so important? What inspires you to be so passionate about helping others set up these communities, where they are known deeply by other humans?

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Curt: Well, I'll see if I can do this in 30 seconds. 

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Pepper: Because he can't say anything in 30 seconds. Let's just start by saying that this episode is going to be a little longer than you're used to, because Curt has a lot of words.

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Amy: He's very generous with his words, most people say that.

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Pepper: He is, we talked about having quotes of Curt's on T-shirts and selling them, but then we realized that every shirt had to be an extra-large because there'd be too many words.

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Amy: Extra-large?

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Pepper: Just way too many. Extra, extra large.

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Curt: Oh, then you went to the trouble to say yes, and we'd also have to print them on the inside of the T-shirt.

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Alison: This is exactly what I meant about showing versus telling friendship.

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Curt: Yes, is that what they're showing? I'm trying to catch up to the train, I think, I don't quite get it. Week after week, I got to put up with this, and then they call it friendship. 

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Alison: I love it. 

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Curt: Well, here is the thing, in the spirit of what you are longing for this episode to be. I would offer that a way to respond to your question would be for Pepper to talk about how this friendship got started. Because I think in describing that, he's going to offer a reflection and an answer to your question. How's that sound?

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Alison: I love it.

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Pepper: Well, so we met while all working on a project with Nicole Johnson, who had put together this unique retreat experience called Seasons Weekend. The weekend was full of artistic endeavors. It was full of just beauty, and the whole purpose of those weekends was for us to guide this group of people through this experience.  

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And as a team, we came together and we would be together for five days. And in those five days, that were very intense, we would work with the people that we were working with until, relatively, late. And, then, our team would stay up until the wee hours of the morning getting to know each other better, and building those friendships there. 

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So in the beginning, it was a very unique way for friendships to start. Because it was almost like four times a year we were going away to camp, and we were all together, breaking bread, at every meal, together, for five days. Staying up to the wee hours every night, and we very quickly developed. Because of the unique nature of this, it was a little bit to our advantage in that we knew we only had a certain amount of time together, so we need to be vulnerable with each other if we were going to do it.

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And, so, that happened pretty quickly where, all of a sudden, we were sharing things with each other that you wouldn't, necessarily, share with people at such an early time. So our friendship, it was escalated really quick and went deep really quick. It wasn't just a wide friendship; it was a very deep friendship that started in that way. But, then, it was also unique in that we weren't really living our lives together. Except for those four times a year, where we were coming together five days a year. 

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And, so, that, also, almost makes it a utopian friendship because there's not a lot of ruptures that are happening. That you have to repair, what you do in everyday, normal, friendships. And, so, yes, it was a unique beginning. And, then, also, this podcast that we're doing together, that we've been now doing together for a couple of years. Just the element of us having something that we are coming together for, with a purpose, that forces us to be together, in this project, has helped carry that relationship on. That's how it all got started and how it's continued.

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Alison: I love that. What you just said reminds me of how C.S. Lewis talks about friendship in The Four Loves as different from lovers, in that lovers face each other, in a way. I think what he means by that is they're working out their relationship. That's part of being in a romantic relationship. 

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Whereas friends are facing forward, they're working toward a purpose outside of themselves, or enjoying a hobby, or enjoying an activity, or enjoying a work, or enjoying creating something together. Not that lovers can't do that, too, but that's just what that reminded me of is that you started in this context, your friendship started in this context, about being part of something bigger than yourself.

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Pepper: Yes, for sure.

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Curt: I think, though, I appreciate your reflection on Lewis's work. In some respects, I wouldn't want to think of those two different kinds of loves in binary terms. Because, I think, that they are, and Pepper, as you mentioned, part of what it means to turn toward each other, even as friends, includes our sharing parts of our stories that felt risky. 

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There have been plenty of moments when the three of us have, with each of us, revealed things about ourselves that we don't like about ourselves. And that we are worried that "When the other hears this part of my story, I can't predict what they're going to do." And, so, it feels risky.

And, so, it is the signature element, I think, of this notion of being vulnerable. And, of course, even though, as Pepper said, we haven't had ruptures to repair in the same way that we might have if we were living together. The act of repairing a rupture is, yet, still one that requires great vulnerability. And it is this common ground of vulnerability that I would say that we share, in which I feel this deep sense of being known. 

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It's not only that we have a common project that we're creating. That act of creativity is certainly part of it. But like we often talk about, in the Genesis account, the end of chapter two, where to create beauty and goodness in the world most durably, it requires nakedness, it requires vulnerability, it requires our willingness to say, "Here is the place where I don't feel like I'm doing very well."

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I mean, just this morning, it was not a major thing, but in our new series, I was not feeling up to the task of something with one of the elements, and there is a certain part of me that feels bad. That I'm like, "I'm not going to be able to bring my best self to the table. What are Pepper and Amy going to think?" 

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We have enough capital, I think, now, in our relationship that I know that I need to just say, "Here's where I am; I don't feel like I'm where I really want to be and it feels bad, confusing." All those kinds of things, and I think it's practicing those little things. Being committed to practicing not letting any stone that has to do with our relationship be left unturned.

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Pepper: Yes, I just wanted to add, one thing that I've experienced through this friendship is although we haven't experienced a lot of ruptures. Having the relationship with these two, with Amy and Curt, has really aided and helped me to be able to go and face ruptures and amend ruptures in relationships with people that I do have every single day. But it's because of the relationship that I have with these guys that and things that I've learned from them and within our relationship, that have helped my other relationships greatly.

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Amy: Well, and I would add to that, that not only have the tools that we've learned with the three of us, or that I've learned with the two of you. But, then, knowing that you guys are in the room with me, when I go to make amends or repair ruptures. Then I feel much more equipped and confident that it's going to be okay, no matter how it goes.

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Curt: Right, totally.

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Alison: You don't mean literally in the room? You mean knowing that you have this foundation of health and strength, gives you the confidence.

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Amy: Yes, they're with me in my mind.

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Alison: The voice is in your head.

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Amy: Yes. 

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Curt: So you raise an important question, Alison, when you say we're not literally in the room. And, yet, we would say, when we do this work in the confessional communities, if you want to step out onto the base of physics, if you will, I would say, like, "No, I actually do take them in my brain, in my embedded neural networks." The memory of Pepper and Amy being with me, literally, has the effect of allowing my body to be at ease. 

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And, so, I can imagine them. I practice imagining, "Pepper is sitting on my left, Amy is sitting on my right, and I'm going to have this conversation that, otherwise, it would be very different conversation, for me, if I was feeling like I'm having to do this by myself." And, so, you're right, they're not literally in the room. And, yet, if we take the material world in quantum mechanics seriously, I don't know.

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Alison: That makes so much sense to me, and I want to circle back to this meeting where you went deep, and that you don't, necessarily, have the day-to-day. So in my experience, in my life, I have two childhood friends and my sister, who I've, literally, known since I was born. 

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We were best friends the first 18 years of our lives, same ages. Our families grew up together, whatever, we kind of lost touch. We've started intentionally coming back together. We try to come back together a couple of times a year, and what you said resonates. We don't have the typical rupture repair because we live all over the country from each other. We have very different lives, day-to-day lives. 

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But that history, that is literally in our DNA, when we started being intentional about spending time together again, in person, regularly, I understand exactly what you're saying. It creates some foundational health, confidence, courage, creativity, all the good things that we want. Even when I'm not talking to them on a daily basis, and those are some of the most important friendships.

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Now, I thought that was attributed to the fact, the longevity. When we get together I'm, literally, going back into my five-year-old self with this person that shares that memory with me, which is just so astonishing, to me, the power of that. 

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But what I'm hearing you say is, in this concentrated environment in which you got to know each other. Where you went really deep and into the layers and layers of who you were. Quickly, you were able to create that very significant shared experiences that are a seed bed going forward, and that's just powerful for folks. I think that's good for people to hear that you can create these friendships at any time. 

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Curt: I would also say it mattered. I think, part of what made it possible for our relationships to be as rich as they are, is that there were multiple ways in which we were interfacing with each other, on these weekends. There was depth of sharing that was vulnerable. There was creativity. There was cognitive work, Pepper was producing it, and Pepper was directing the weekend. There is a program that has to be timed and so forth, and I know that he had to work hard because he was working with me. And, so, I'm well aware of how hard the work was for him. 

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Amy would come and she's a contractor. She comes and she comes with her tools, and she built things every weekend. 

And, so, there was the creativity aspect of this that required, that demanded, effort. Each of us had to be present for the attendees in ways that we had to be giving, we had to be empathic, and we had to be pouring out. There was so much humor, oh, my gosh.

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Pepper: So much laughter.

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Alison: Oh, my gosh, I mean, the first weekend Pepper and I meet, there's this iconic story of us. We were going up to Nicole's hotel executive suite to have a meeting, wasn't it? Is that what we were doing? 

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Pepper: Yes.

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Curt: And later in the evening, I can't get down the hallway because Pepper has said two or three things, I'm leaning up against the wall, I can't get down the hall. I'm a grown man, I can't get down the hallway because I'm-

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Pepper: Literally, he slid down the wall onto the floor, he was laughing so hard. Which made me laugh so hard, and that was really early in our relationship. I mean, laughter, I don't know Curt, if you want to talk about this, laughter is such a connector. It's such a universal thing that can connect us. I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.

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Curt: Well, we say if you go to see a stand-up routine and you're in a room that is pretty intimate. If you're in a room of 200 people, but it's all pretty packed in, vulnerability is just awash in the room. The comic has to be vulnerable. The moment I start to laugh at something... 

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I was on a college campus not that long ago. In which, as I was speaking to the students, there were moments when I thought I was speaking to cardboard cutouts. And I'm like, "Wow, I must be generationally, myself, out of this community."

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Later, I spoke with some of the leadership, some of the other students, who were saying, "Oh, my gosh." They were just so dialed in. So I'm like, "Wow, please explain." And they said in this particular setting, in this particular university, it would be common that if you were to respond to a speaker or to a professor, as if you were moved by them, as if you were being touched. As if it would matter to you, as if what they had to say was valuable, you would be at risk for other people around you scorning you. 

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I'm like, "Okay, that's a new thing." I wasn't aware that that's a thing but, apparently, that's a thing. But what it speaks to is how risky it is to be vulnerable, even when you are allowing yourself to be receptive to anything that's coming toward you that moves you, and this is what comedians do, they move us. 

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They say the things that nobody else in the crowd will say, and pretty much that's Pepper and Amy. They say the things, in the crowd, that nobody else will want to say. But anyway, that whole sense of vulnerability with humor is another way that it creates flexibility for us to be more deeply connected.

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Alison: And we're laughing also at ourselves, often, with the comedian. Which, again, as we started off this episode, immediately, that's why I called it. That's, to me, a mark of friendship, being able to hold yourself lightly, laughing at oneself, which is such a key ingredient.

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Curt: And because it's such an antithesis to the shame, that we often respond with when we imagine ourselves. It's like, "Oh, no, this is actually joyful." People are like, "We are enjoying each other in the middle of our vulnerabilities, and our mistakes, and our brokenness, and so forth."

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Alison: I love that.

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Curt: Early on, in our podcast, one person wrote a comment on a social post or something saying they wish that I wouldn't tease Curt so much. And, yet, this is what it really is. I mean, we're bringing out the best in one another. I mean, we're able to laugh at these things. It's not anybody trying to one up anybody, or there's no place at all in there that's manipulative, or mean, or anything like that, it's all love.

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Curt: Yes, especially when we talk about Amy.

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Pepper: Well, let's not go that far.

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Amy: Always.

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Alison: Amy, what's your experience been like coming in with these two guys and this friendship?

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Curt: Careful.

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Amy: Careful, yes, it's been fabulous. I mean, Nicole Johnson, I've worked with her for almost 22 years, and Pep has worked with her longer. So I've known Pep for 22 years. So we have that and then we come together and meet Curt, and it's fabulous. I mean, and this sounds trite, but they bring out the best in me. They are a safe place and when I say I take them into the rooms with me, they go with me, and they make me a better person. And, then, from that place, I can create beauty because they are part of that foundation. So it's been amazing.

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****

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Alison: So, Amy, I resonate with what you're saying because, literally, right now, in this moment, the minute your face has popped onto the screen, and I know Kurt a little bit. I don't know Pepper and Amy hardly at all, I feel it right now, I feel joy. I feel a little bit of moisture at the back of my eyes, just connection. I, immediately, am not looking at my script, I could care less. I just want to be with you guys. I want to have a conversation. I feel alive, and you guys are making me think of my dearly beloved friends with whom I have that left. My mind is going, "Oh, yes, I know."

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"Yes, me, too, I get that. There's just love. What is this ingredient? And this is what I felt when I was with you guys in D.C., that seems so intuitive. My nervous system, my body says, "Oh, yes, this is so life-giving. This brings out the best in all of us." But you don't find it all the time. How do we put words on this for folks? This feeling of connection, of realness? And I'm trying to think of what it feels like. It feels like I can just be myself, as you're saying, safety. How do we cultivate this? 

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How do we bring this more into being? Maybe what I'm noticing is the safety and connection between the three of you spills over, and I'm experiencing it now with you, which is just beautiful.

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Amy: I mean, the first thing that came to my mind was being intentional about time spent. In that first gathering, with Seasons Weekend, we didn't know each other, so we weren't really being intentional about iy. But then following that, we were intentional about spending time together.

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Pepper: Yes, Alison, when you talked about intentionally getting together with your sister and your longtime friend, it is. I think the data shows that most people change their friends every seven years because of life's situations. And, so, if you aren't intentional, and like this podcast that we do together, we're very intentional about it. There's work that we have to do between the recordings and we're connected with each other then.

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Before we start recording, we're sharing our lives with each other for sometimes an hour before we even start recording. We're very intentional about staying connected and continuing to be vulnerable with each other. And, I think, maybe, what you are feeling is that sense of the three of us have created a safe space. For me, I experience from Amy and Curt, I know their hearts. I know that I am safe with them. And, so, that's, maybe, what you're feeling as well. Just that we all know that we're safe with each other, so you've come into this.

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Alison: It's really, literally, what I'm hearing you say is that your work that you do together, literally, is an overflow of your friendship. And, so, you just gave me some examples. So prior to recording, you are coming together and not just getting right to work. You're connecting to each other as humans, is that right?

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Pepper: Absolutely right.

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Curt: Yes, I mean, I know plenty of people, people who I know, who once a year go for a three-day golf trip, they're intentional. It doesn't look anything like this. There are plenty of communities that gather, intentionally, for a whole range of reasons. 

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I think that in some respects, Alison, what we try to do is, not to overplay this hand, but we talk about attachment. And what is attachment? When a parent is with their newborn, the parent is with intention being with the newborn, with joy. The whole notion, we are doing this with joy. But we are also going to, with intention, be vulnerable. It's not just the intention itself, it's the intention toward what.

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We talk about the first wound of the Bible happens on the second page. Where Adam is put into general anesthesia and he wakes up with a chest wound. And he's like, "What the heck?" But what's the intention of the wound? The wound is beauty and goodness. It's poetry and song that he responds, he's not paying so much attention to that wound. The very next page of the Bible, you have the second wound that begins with the conversation between the snake and the woman.

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Both of these acts are intentional. God's act with Adam, the snake's act with the woman. But the outcomes are very different. The intended outcomes are very different. And I think that the nature of that Season's weekend, itself, required of us. 

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We weren't going to be able to do that work if we, ourselves, were not going to be vulnerable with each other. And I think that when we are practicing that, over time, we continue to strengthen our comfort and confidence with each other. We can use the word safe or safety, and that's comfort and confidence at being our full naked selves. Our full, vulnerable selves, and the more we do it, the more confident we become. The more we do it, and so forth. 

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And when Jesus in, John 12 says, "Look, the world's going to know your mine the way you love one another." That's how the world's going to know your mine, not by going out and preaching. It's going to know because of the way you love one another, and this is what it means for us to love one another. We're going to be vulnerable with each other, on purpose. And then people come around this and they walk in the room and they're like, "Wait, what's happening here?" If that makes sense.

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Alison: Totally. 

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Curt: And, so, I think, it requires people to willingly be committed to vulnerability in that way.

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Alison: I appreciate what you're saying; it's intentionality is one piece of the equation. But just as you said, you can be intentional with your drinking buddies every Friday night and escape everything. 

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And, so, it's the combination of intentionality and substance/vulnerability, and it strikes me, listening to you, that each of you as individuals has done some of that work internally. So you've become a safe person for yourself with God, and I don't know which one is the chicken or egg, I always go back and forth on this. And, then, which allows you that capacity to do that with another and or being with each other has opened up the capacity for internal safety. 

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And all of that becomes this virtuous cycle, as opposed to a vicious cycle, of this just levity and light. All these qualities of the self, what Dick Schwartz calls the qualities of self-energy, calm, curiosity, creativity, courage, connection, confidence. But I'm sensing it from the relationship, the dynamic among the three of you, which is so interesting.

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Curt: Totally. Again, not that we can't say enough about Trinitarian theology, but there's a sense in which even when you have two people in the room. There are elements of human relational dynamism that are not complete. To have a third person in the room changes things significantly, and we could talk forever and a day about that. 

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But I think the fact that there are three of us, at the very least, the fact that we're not all dudes. I can't say enough for how much it means to me that I can have a deep relationship with a woman who's not my wife, but who gets me and who would go to the wall for me. I get experience of that with other men.

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Alison: Yes, it's powerful.

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Curt: And I've got two people here who would do that for me.

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Alison: Yes.

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Amy: And it's one thing, I know that I would go to the wall for Curt and Pep, but then for Curt and Pep to know that. Does that make sense? The power of that?

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Alison: Yes, it's true, and they receive it, and absorb it, and allow it to change them, which is vulnerability. It's powerful, it's really beautiful, thank you for sharing that. So here's a question, as I'm listening, there's so much of an obsession about personality type, and qualities, and all these things. And I'm sitting here listening, going, "Is the key ingredient vulnerability, over and above what qualities or what personality?" In terms of creating this safety. Isn't it so much deeper than compatibility fit? I'm just sensing something so much more substantive.

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Pepper: So for 15 years, I met a gentleman, who was sort of a spiritual mentor, for me, at 6 o'clock in the morning, at Du-Par's Restaurant in Studio City, California. And to get to that place of vulnerability it takes time, it takes effort, and, for me, it has been the key to the deeper friendships. I mean, what Curt is teaching on The Being Known podcast; the interesting thing about it is we're living it at the same time. 

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And, so, I'm gaining so much from doing this podcast, with these two, and it started with the vulnerability. That's where it started for us, for me, with the two of them. Because that's what, for me, takes the level of depth of the relationship to a place where you can be open to learning, and hearing, and believing in one another.

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Curt: Okay, can I pile onto that, though, and say something additional because, I think, the vulnerability is important.

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Pepper: So I just want to say that I always feel so safe that I can say anything I want because Curt will make it make sense. That's how safe I feel in our podcast. I can say anything, I can talk about anything, and Curt will turn it into, "Well, you know in Leviticus..." I think this is what you're trying to say. So, right now, Kurt's going to give you the exegesis on what I just said. The hermeneutics of Pepper Sweeney.

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Alison: We all need a Curt.

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Pepper: Yes, go ahead, Curt. 

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Curt: Can I just say, Curt does not need all of this. You might all need a Curt; Curt doesn't need all of this. I don't need any of this. So this is about vulnerability. Look, it was not my idea to do the podcast.

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Pepper: True. 

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Curt: Oh, thanks for emphasizing that Pep, great-

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Pepper: So it wasn't mine either.

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Curt: I mean, what were we? We were two years into Seasons Weekend. At some point, Amy says, and I don't remember the time frame of this, Amy says, "I think you should think about doing a podcast."

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Amy: And he said, "What's a podcast?" 

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He said, "Sure, I don't know what that means, but sure." That didn't quite go like that.

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Curt: But close, it was close to that.

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Amy: It was close. 

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Curt: So I basically said, "I don't listen to them; I don't have time." I got all these excuses, "I can't do this." But, on occasion, she would keep coming, "I think you need to think about doing this." And, at some point, she also wove in this idea, because in the course of conversation, I'm like, "I can't invite..." In a podcast you would invite guests.

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I'm like, "I don't have time for that. I can't do that."

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And she said, "Well, what if it wasn't just you talking? What if you had a conversation partner? Someone like maybe, Pepper Sweeney." And, so, I wasn't ready to do it because I had other projects that were going on. And then I completed the manuscript of The Soul Desire and felt like I was just a big exhale. And it was so odd how I finished that manuscript, and suddenly, and it's just the oddest thing how it's just a matter of timing. 

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Suddenly everything just like the penny dropped, and I felt like, "Let's go do this." I have no idea what we're going to do. I wasn't confident, I was not, in that moment, confident in me doing a podcast. I was confident in Amy's and Pepper's confidence in whatever it is that they're thinking about.

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Pepper: Curt often talks about the fact that we can't imagine our futures until someone else imagines them for us. So often people come into your life and they'll say, "I see this in you."

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Curt: Totally. So what we are doing, it is Amy calling me forward in a specific place where I feel extraordinarily vulnerable. Like, "I don't know what the heck I'm doing." No. So, I think, that's another part of the vulnerability. It's a matter of not just we reveal parts of us that are unsteady, and broken, and imperfect. But it's also a matter of our being willing to respond to someone else touching a part of us that is vulnerable and saying, "Hey, I want to come into that room in your house. And I want you, and me, and Pepper to go someplace with that."

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And you're like, "How can anybody go someplace with that? It's a mess in that room."

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And they're like, "Oh, we're not just here to be with you. We're here to do something beautiful with the very thing that you think just needs to be kept hidden."

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Alison: Yes, calling each other into more and more being, really, calling each other out more and more. That's the virtuous cycle of friendship, is more and more and more goodness. More and more of who you really are and the gifts you bring only can come out through the crucible, the context of friendship, that's beautiful. 

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This really should be the Amy and Pepper podcast, that's what it should be called. It should be called the Amy and Pepper podcast.

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Pepper: It'd be a lot shorter.

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Curt: But they knew they could push my vulnerability so far, but not too far. They knew that I was, probably, going to have The Being Known podcast was the name, and all the things, there is-

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Amy: He'll catch up with us.

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Alison: Yes, Curt, this may be projection, and so if it is just completely discard it. I think so much of the work that you and I are both trained to do you're a therapist. You work individually with people. You're a speaker, a writer, I relate to all those categories. They're all very solitary endeavors in many ways. And, so, I'm curious what that was like for you, inviting, you've alluded to it, and maybe that for you wasn't, maybe, you wouldn't have looked at them as solitary endeavors. So that could be projection from my part. But how do you invite people into your processes?

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Curt: Well, I think, I've learned this and I'm still learning the reality of this. That because we are rhythmic people, to be human is to be rhythmic. One of the ways that we're rhythmic is this continual movement back and forth between life and work, in solitude, and life and work in community. Just like exhaling and inhaling. Just like the pulse of your heartbeat. 

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And I would say that the work that we do best as therapists, when we are doing our individual work, in solitude, with another patient, for instance. If you're writing you're in your office and you're banging away at the computer. But that's only going to flourish to the degree that I'm, then, taking that and then being back in community in some way, shape, or form. 

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And, so, the best of the work as a writer, a speaker, a therapist, is made possible because you're in rhythmic connection with the community. So living and working in the practice that I have, the best time of my week, at the practice, is every Wednesday, from 11:45 to 01:00, when our staff meets together. It's the best part of my week, of the practice. Because I can take what's happening in that room and know that I'm not by myself with what's going to come, in all the other moments with patients. 

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And, so, it feels like, then, this becomes one more of those communities. Our podcast becomes one more of those communities in which I'm being nourished, and we each find nourishment, and we each provide nourishment for each other. 

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Alison: Yes. 

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Curt: That enables me, then, to go back, to go do the speaking thing that I'm going to do the next day, or the individual therapy work that you're going to do the next week. So that's how I would reflect on that.

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Alison: I love that.

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******

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Alison: I love that idea of the rhythms, of aloneness and togetherness, of solitary and connected. And just thinking here, as we have just a few more minutes, how do you, in practical ways, create those rhythms in your life? Curt, you just gave us a glimpse. This podcast group is one for you guys, and I love the idea that this isn't just, I heard you very clearly say you're being nourished. You're pouring out through this podcast. You're helping a lot of people, but you're also being nourished by it because of this trio, and that that's possible in workspaces.

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That's possible in our families. That's possible in lots of different contexts, where we're both it's not binary of "I give out here, I receive here." 

There are ways to create rhythms, I really love that. So I'm curious, Amy and Pepper, do you have thoughts on that, in your own lives, how you incorporate rhythms of togetherness and apartness?

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Pepper: Well, I will say using this podcast as an example. So we meet normally on Fridays, pretty much every week, and we have a nice chunk of time blocked out, in the mornings, and that has become a major rhythm for me. Where that really helps me carry on through the week, and then I know that that's coming again. 

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I work a lot, so I'm either on the road touring with shows, or I'm sitting in this little room, by myself, in front of a computer. Which is 90% of my work is done by myself. I have Zoom calls all day, all that kind of thing. I have other friendships and things here, locally, but I've relied on this podcast as a major rhythm in my life. And, as a matter of fact, when we go on hiatus, we'll start texting each other, "Okay, it's been too long."

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"This is driving me crazy, we got to get back together." So, yes, this has been definitely a rhythm for me, that has fed into me and helped me to be a better person, I think.

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Alison: Are you surprised by that, Pepper, how significant this has become? Did you anticipate that?

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Pepper: Very surprised by it, actually. I just said to Curt this morning, I think, if I remember we started this, I thought, "Well, if we can get maybe 400 people to listen to this podcast, that's going to be a major win, and Curt's work is going to get out there to more people, and it's great to be in front of a room of 400 people. We just hit a million and eight downloads this week, and it's a huge surprise to me. But I do think, also, I wouldn't have done this podcast. I wouldn't put this much effort, and time, and work, and energy, into something if I wasn't going to get something out of it.

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Alison: Yes.

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Pepper: And what I'm getting out of it is these relationships, is the learnings. Like I said, doing this podcast makes me a better person, on so many levels. It just makes me a better friend, a better husband, a better dad, a better son, all the things, it really is something. I think, I anticipated some of that, but not to the extent and the importance that it's become in my life.

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Alison: It's beautiful. What about you, Amy? Are you surprised by the depth and the degree of how much this has shaped you? And if not... That's a loaded question, well, no, actually it doesn't really-

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Curt: She's not surprised at how much she's shaped Pepper and me, she's not surprised of that at all-

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Amy: I mean, I am surprised at the impact it's had on me. It's both yes and no because it really is an extension of our relationship. And, so, I would be more surprised if it didn't impact me. Because I would be like, "Why suddenly did the impact stop?"

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Alison: Yes.

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Amy: But what it has taught me, too, is that, I'll use the word endeavors, the different endeavors I have in my life. I have a group; I get together with a group that's just about projects we're working on. And, so, walking away from that group knowing they know what I'm working on, and they are supportive, and caring about that. I wouldn't have known how to do that group if it weren't for the podcast, I don't think. Because it is an assimilation, if that makes sense. So now I bring what we have in the podcast to areas of my life, it has infiltrated my life.

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Alison: Interesting, so it's spread over.

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Curt: That's what we are, we are infiltrators, great.

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Pepper: Infiltrators.

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Amy: That's a different podcast. 

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Alison: Yes, that makes a lot of sense and not just, structurally, the DNA, of it, who you are, now, what you bring to these other pockets, as Curt says, outposts of safety and connection, has fundamentally changed. I do want to compliment you guys because I do know a lot of stories of folks, who were good friends that pivoted into working together and the friendship fell apart, that does happen.

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And, so, the fact that, that's why I'm asking, it's not so much are you surprised. Because, you're right, it makes sense, you knew the power of these connections. But I would also say there's clearly, and this is where the individual work, I think, is also a component. There's the absence of ego, for lack of a better word. 

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The fact that all three of you are really committed to your own work, as you come together. That's allowing this to thrive in new ways, as you've brought in a creative partnership. I mean, I want to give you guys some credit for that. I don't think that would, magically, happen just with anybody, any group of friends, that said, "Let's embark on a pretty sophisticated project together."

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Curt: Yes, I mean, I can't say enough about the role that is played by my awareness of and confidence in the fact that Pepper and Amy are both doing their work, and I'm trying to catch up. But it really does make a difference. It does make a difference, when you're aware that everybody, we're trying to do our work, and we know that we do it imperfectly, but we're still trying to do it.

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Amy: For sure. Well, and Alison, you said, and this is what you were saying about when you said, I don't know which came first the chicken or the egg, this work it's almost simultaneously. I would do a little bit of work and then I would be aware, "Oh, there's a little bit more of work to do, but I can do it because this safety is building." So it goes hand in hand. Does that make sense?

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Alison: Yes, it's a dance. We do our own work, internally, and God puts His finger on certain areas. But if we just live that in a vacuum, 

it's when we go back into those safe spaces that that work gets tended and cultivated. And, also, sometimes, God uses the group to put the finger on things that we need to notice and then go back into our quiet personal time, and say, "Oh, God, I need to deal that with you. Do I need to deal with that in the group? Do I need to deal with that internally?" 

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I mean, that's another practical thing, we're running out of time. But I think about that a lot in friendships is when we talk about vulnerability. We don't always have to tell our friends every single thing we think or feel, especially, as it relates to some of the negative stuff, that we all deal with from time to time. 

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For me, as I've understood this dance of friendship, I was always somebody who I knew how to be receptive. So if you think about the therapist/client or spiritual director/spiritual directee model, I knew how to be the person receiving care. 

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I also know how to be the person giving care. What has been more challenging for me, and really I've only tackled, I'd say, in the last few years, is this dance of interdependence. Of sometimes I'm the one holding space for you, sometimes, I'm the one needing you to see me, and that is really hard and really painful. I can do it if that's your job, and that's your role, and I pay you to do that. 

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But in the context of friendship, that's hard, and I've been learning about that, and that's when you talk about vulnerability. One of the things that as I've grown and learned about that, it's I don't have to tell friends, these safe spaces, all the things I'm rumbling with inside my soul for it to be vulnerable. But I do need to know that I could, if that makes sense. It's kind of a paradox.

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Curt: Sure, sure love that and affirm what you're saying, that just makes a ton of sense. I also think that the fact that there are, again, this is not to be completely prescriptive. But the fact that there are three of us in this work and not just two of us, makes a huge difference. I think, because when any one of us needs something hard to say to one of the others, it's helpful to have a third party in the room. That my brain can borrow your brain so that I can talk to the other person's brain. I think it makes a difference in all kinds of ways.

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Alison: That's a really good word, it's a really practical word for folks. That there's an intensity to one-on-one, that it's not all bad or good. Again, it's not a binary, but there's something about the group, the collective. I do want you to touch on, Curt, before we close a little bit about your vision for Confessional Communities. We'll get into more of a practical example of that in another episode, but can you just tell us a little bit about that?

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Curt: Yes, listeners can read about it in The Soul Desire, where currently, we are beginning the recording of a miniseries on Confessional Communities. There are also two really helpful resource outlets for this, The Center for Being Known, the nonprofit that you came to speak for, The Connections Conference. We just launched our second cohort of 18 Confessional Communities, there are almost 200 people that are involved in those. 

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Where we do online training and then support for that. And, then, our practice is doing two and a half day intensives, where you come and you're up to your neck in the actual work. 

We're going to be doing that beginning this fall, committing that to training therapists, who get clinicians who want to do that in their own practices. 

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And it is a way for us to combine what we know about what the biblical narrative calls us to with neuroscience, with group psychotherapy practices, that enables us to move toward formation. And we believe that our minds, our hearts, our souls, our brains, our bodies are more effectively formed in the context of a community. 

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It becomes a crucible in which the shame and the fear that I walk around with is provided a container into which it can come. And as you, so artfully, like to talk about, the different parts of us can come to be seen, soothed, safe, made to be secure, to, then, go from that space, over time, to create beauty and goodness in the world. In the other domains of life where it's been difficult for us to do that, and we take those members with us. And if I can take three or four members with me to do a hard thing, I'm much better able to do it if I have to do it by myself.

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So, like Pepper was saying earlier, it takes time. God could have made the world in a day, it took six. I mean, The Ark of the biblical narrative could have taken a lot shorter, but it's taking time. He appears to be taking an amount of time that I'm not always happy with, especially, not least in my own life. But these Confessional Communities can create space in which we are, literally, loving each other as God has loved us, and such that the world will look at that community and know that we are the disciples of Jesus.

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Alison: I love that. And, so, if people go to that website, we'll link to it in the show notes, you're helping people figure out the structure of that, the how of that. How to set that up, which is so important? It's just such a need for folks to have these spaces. Again, to circle back to it's not just the time, it's the quality of that time, how that time is being used. And, so, you're creating, you're helping equip people to do that on their own.

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Curt: That's right.

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Alison: That's beautiful. Thank you, guys, so much. I could just shoot the breeze with you all day long. When I was with you, I talk about this sometimes, holy envy, and when I feel holy envy, it's I see something in other people. 

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I'm like, "Oh, that's good, I need more of that." And I have, literally, since October, done because I have friends with this level of depth. "Oh, my gosh, I need to intentionally build some things around that." So thank you. Thank you for inspiring that. Thank you for what you do with the podcast. Tell us where to find the podcast, I think, it's just such a great gift. Where can people find it?

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Amy: Anywhere they listen, Being Known Podcast, they can search for it and find it.

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Alison: And you've got some fun outtake videos on YouTube, too?

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Pepper: There's plenty of outtakes.

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Amy: Every episode have plenty of outtakes and every episode has a gag reel.

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Alison: I love it. Thank you guys so much; I just appreciate all of you. I appreciate the work that you do. I appreciate you sharing this friendship trio, this trinitarian friendship with us today, as a living example, sort of a parable, almost, of what this all means in real life. So thank you.

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Curt: Thanks, Alison, it's been great to be with you.

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Amy: Thank you, Alison.

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Alison: Hope to see you again soon.

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Curt: Right on.

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Alison: Bye.

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< Outro >

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Alison: Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you'd take a moment to subscribe. You can go to Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode, and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

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Phew! Today's episode gets fiery 🔥🔥🔥! Many of us were taught to "turn the other cheek" as a call to be a doormat or to naively "love someone" into change. In today's episode, I'm not holding back as I paint a picture of what I think the Bible really teaches about standing firm against toxicity. You'll discover a completely different picture of what it means to turn the other cheek.

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Here's what we cover:

1. What "turn the other cheek" really means

2. What the Bible has to say about toxic behavior

3. Why it doesn't work to "love people" into change

4. Examples of toxicity & how to protect yourself

5. How to be shrewd when dealing with gossip, cruelty or manipulation

Do you have questions for Dr. Alison?⁠ Leave them here.

Want to receive free bonus content? ⁠⁠Sign up for my free weekly email here.

‍

Thanks to our sponsors:

• This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self.
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• Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today.
• Visit hiyahealth.com/BESTOFYOU and get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults.

Music by Andy Luiten

Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik

While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only.

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Resources

• Sign up to receive my weekly newsletter and 3 free resources here!
• ‍Matthew 5:38-39
• ‍Sermon On the Mount: Matthew 5
• ‍Matthew for Everyone by N.T. Wright
• National Domestic Abuse Hotline: Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) for 24/7 free, confidential support
• ‍Psalm 23:5
• ‍Romans 8:31
• ‍Matthew 10:16
• ‍Proverbs 18:2
• ‍Proverbs 12:15
• ‍Proverbs 10:18
• ‍Proverbs 18:6
• ‍Proverbs 14:16
• ‍Isaiah 32:5-7
• ‍Scriptures about how to be wise: Proverbs 14:7, Proverbs 23:9, Proverbs 26:4-5, Proverbs 18:7, Galatians 6:7, Proverbs 29:11
• ‍Proverbs 13:20
• Resources for support

‍

‍Related Podcast Episodes:

• Episode 2: What Should I Know About Gaslighting?
• Episode 24: Boundaries, the Spectrum of Toxicity, and a Note About Evil
• Episode 25: Types of No Part 1—How to Say “No” in Healthy Relationships
• Episode 26: Types of "No" Part 2—How to Say "No" to Toxicity, The Real Meaning of Turn the Other Cheek & How to Form a Boundaries Committee
• ‍Boundaries and the Bible Youtube Series
• ‍What Does the Bible Really Say Youtube Series

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Transcript

Alison: Hey everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of The Best of You podcast. Today is the last episode in this series we've been doing called What Does the Bible Really Say? And it is packed, we are covering all kinds of hard questions in today's finale episode. This has been such a popular series. We'll come back and do another round two Listeners Choice edition in the coming months. 

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In the meantime, do not forget to sign up for my weekly The Best of You email, it comes out every Thursday. It's free, and every week I include some sort of bonus content related to the podcast. You also get three free resources, when you sign up for it you get a Boundaries Kickstart Guide, another eBook, as well as a guided audio exercise.

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So you can head over to my website, dralisandcook.com, to sign up for that email or you can see the link in today's episode shownotes. I am so excited about our new series that launches next week. Stay tuned for more information about that. I've been planning this one for a long time and I cannot wait to share it with you. So thank you for being here. 

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Thank you so much for just your notes, your comments, for what you share with me about what this podcast has meant to you. 

It means so much to me to hear from you, to know that what we're doing here matters to you. It matters a lot to me. This is my passion; my life is bringing together my faith with psychology. Bringing together what I know to be true of God. 

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What I know to be true about the Bible, into relationship with what I know to be true about the human self, about what it means to be human in this world. That we are not, as we talked about at the end of last week's episode, that we are not just quote-unquote, "Saved" to get to a better place after we die. 

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That we are, in fact, in the process of being made whole right now. Which means we are in the process of learning how to live out our God-given lives, our God-given talents. Our God given abilities, in our families, in our relationships, in our communities, in our own souls right now. The healing starts now. Where we learn how to become more whole, more true, more emotionally regulated, more clear, more creative, as we are parents, as we are friends, as we are community members, and as we allow others to come alongside us. 

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As we forge these healthy two-way relationships that can, sometimes, feel so hard, so challenging in this messy world that we live in. But there are tools, there are strategies that we have to equip ourselves to do this work of being a human well, and that's what this podcast is all about. I love creating it each week. I'm so grateful that you're here and I cannot wait to dive in to today's topic – Should I turn the other cheek? 

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Now, we're going to get into what that means, some strategies for how to actually do that effectively. Which means in a way that does not simply give other people permission to take advantage of you. And then we're going to talk about the specifics of some of the kinds of toxicity that we bump up against, especially this thing of gaslighting. 

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That's such a buzzword, but it's a very real thing and very common in our world today. Where there's just so much spin, so much manipulation, so much deception. So many half-truths everywhere, and how are we to stand firm in the face of all that. Which is a little bit more of what I think turn the other cheek really means. 

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So should I turn the other cheek? This is an expression we throw around. It comes directly from the words of Jesus, and here's a passage from Matthew 5:38-39, where Jesus talks about this concept. Here's what Jesus says, "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek turn to them the other cheek also." And then He goes on with a few other similar statements. 

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So this whole passage is in the context of Jesus's Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5, and there's a whole lot of this upside down gospel that Jesus is talking about in the Sermon of the Mount. We touched on this last week, of this way in which Jesus is ushering in this whole new way of thinking about what it means to follow Him. A whole new way of what it means to be an image bearer. 

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To be a person who reflects the image of God, in the world. And He's trying to upend a little bit the old way of thinking about that, which was this way of following a code of laws. 

And I turn here to N.T. Wright, who again, is a prominent New Testament scholar, who writes a lot about this idea of how Jesus isn't, necessarily, trying to replace one law with another law.

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He's not simply trying to say, "well, no, now you're not going to do this Ten Commandment thing. In fact, I'm elevating it to a whole new law." Which is, sometimes, how we interpret this passage. It's like, "The whole new way to be a Christian is we're just supposed to turn the other cheek, take mistreatment from others. Just give everything away. Just let everybody walk all over us." That's the new way to follow God. And it's a lot more nuanced than that, according to Wright. 

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What Wright says, and I think this is really true in the context of the larger mosaic, that is the New Testament, is that Jesus is not giving prescriptions here. He's not giving mandates. He's describing what it looks like when you become a part of God's kingdom. Where you're living as a beloved child of God. There's this radical shift in how you orient to life. 

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Where you're living less from yourself, from that ego, from that need to be vindicated. From that fight/flight state of eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and instead from a whole place, a healed place. Which is not a place of being a doormat, it's a place of conviction. Of being so anchored in the truth of who you are as God's beloved child.

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That your whole orientation to other people, including to other people who would seek to do you harm, is changed from the inside out. So these are not shallow declaratives, where it's like, suddenly, Jesus is saying, "You just need to give everybody else everything you own and just be foolish." Because we know that Jesus is no fool, and I'll get into that here in a minute. 

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But I first just want to paint this broad picture here, of Jesus is suggesting that when you live as a child of God and you live in this new kingdom that Jesus is ushering in. You are so anchored, so confident, in who you are and in this life, this new life, that God has given you. That you have tasted the nectar of ultimate reality, and it is so good and so beautiful. And you are so filled with the hope of what it means to be redeemed, to be made whole. 

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To become that beautiful, light-bearing person, who has purpose, who has dignity, who is being healed of wounds. Who is being brought into the wholeness of responsibility, and of goodness, and of beauty, and of creativity, and becoming someone who walks with God, with purpose, in this life. That suddenly dealing with evil, dealing with people who want to hurt us, dealing with toxicity, has a whole new connotation. 

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It doesn't mean we don't need to deal with it. It doesn't mean we need to be foolish and pretend like it's not there. It means it takes on a whole new connotation. This is not something that can be achieved with superficial willpower, or with naive platitudes or with simplistic niceties, pleasantries, or half-hearted, sort of, being a nice person. 

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This is not the powerful picture that Jesus is painting in Matthew 5. It's this picture of I have so much hope in who God is and what God is really about in His work, to bring radical healing. To bring radical transformation to those who have been hurt the most. To those who've been the most traumatized, the most victimized, the most deeply broken, the most deeply wounded. 

That the God that we serve is so powerful. That He is reaching every corner of the deepest, darkest places of this busted up world, to bring people out of bondage. Literal bondage, physical bondage, emotional bondage, metaphorical bondage, spiritual bondage, and into the truth of dignity, of purpose, of wholeness. 

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I believe so much in that God and the radical work He is doing in every corner of this world, and in every corner of my soul. I believe so much in this vision that I begin to see that the last are actually going to be first. That I begin to understand what it means that those who hunger are going to be filled, and that those who are suffering are going to be comforted, and that those who are persecuted are going to find their freedom. And that I'm, in fact, a part of bringing those realities of wholeness, of healing, of redemption into being. 

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There's a power in that that allows us to orient ourselves to the insults, to the persecutions, to the violations, to the deceptions, to the false accusations in a different way. From a place of deep, grounded conviction.

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So against that backdrop, we arrive at this idea of what it means to turn the other cheek. So in many ways, and for many of us, this phrase has been used to suggest that as a Christ follower, as someone who loves God, that you are supposed to simply put up with abuse and mistreatment. You're supposed to be the bigger person. There's a way in which we're taught that what you're supposed to do is love the offending party into seeing the error of their ways. And that your loving response is what will prompt the other person to change, and sometimes that works. 

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Sometimes we are called, in certain situations, to simply show grace, show mercy. There is a time and a place for that, but that's not always the best strategy in real life. There are circumstances where that is just simply not wise. If you're in a situation where someone is abusing you, coming after you with toxic strategies, you are not going to be able to, quote-unquote, "Love them into change." You are, in fact, going to need to get yourself out of that situation. You are going to need to be strategic. 

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Now, we talked about this back in the series on boundaries. Where I delineate different kinds of boundaries. There are the everyday boundaries that you need to set even with people you love. Where sometimes you do absolutely just need to show love and show mercy, instead of executing your right to be upset with somebody. We see this all the time in long-standing friendships, or in family relationships, or in marriage.

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But in that series, I also delineate when you need to say no to toxicity. Which is a very different type of strategy that's in episodes 24, 25, and 26. Some of those different ways of setting boundaries that are appropriate for different types of different situations. 

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In these types of scenarios where you're in a toxic situation, where you're being abused by a spouse or a boss, maybe you're being harassed. Maybe you're being systematically undermined or manipulated, maybe you're being bullied. Maybe somebody is lying about you or spreading lies about you, behind your back. This is not a type of situation where you are just supposed to continue to take the pain, just be the bigger person, just to ignore it. 

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If you think about your child, if they were being bullied, systematically, on the playground, you would talk to them about how to get themselves out of that situation. You wouldn't want to put your child in a position of being harmed by another person. It's just not wise, and it's not wise for us to do as adults. When you're dealing with folks who are really using some of these very toxic strategies to harm you, it's foolish to pretend that you can just love that person into change. In many cases, we can just end up enabling toxic behavior and harming ourselves, in the process. 

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Instead, I would posit to you that turning the other cheek is actually a very brave counter move. It's not being a doormat. And I turn here, again, to N.T. Wright where he shows this nuanced understanding of this very passage from Matthew 5, and I'm going to read from this passage in his book Matthew for Everyone. This is what N.T. Wright says, "To be struck on the right cheek in that world, almost, certainly, meant being hit with the back of the right hand. That's not just violence, it's an insult. It implies that you're an inferior, perhaps a slave, a child, or in that world, and, sometimes, even today, a woman."

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So, again, in my words, this slap on the right cheek is not just abuse, although, it is that. It's also an insult, it's demeaning. It's saying, "You are not worth my time. You're an inferior person to me." That's what it's symbolizing here, both in reality and that time, but it's what it's symbolizing for us today. 

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And, so, here's what N.T. Wright says, "What's the answer? Hitting back only keeps the evil in circulation. Offering the other cheek implies, 'hit me again if you like, but now as an equal, not as an inferior.'" And you can imagine this scenario where you turn that other cheek in defiance, it's not to say, "Oh, sure, no problem. Yes, just keep hitting me, it's fine, you're fine, I'll just love you into change." 

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That is not the connotation there. There's a note of defiance in it. It's turning the other cheek to say, "Yes, I see, you can't hit me and, yes, that hurts. Yes, I don't like it, but you cannot take my dignity." There's a note of defiance in it, if you think about that. It's a way of standing your ground, of communicating, "You will not belittle me." It's countering bullying from a position of strength. 

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So, first of all, I want to pause here and say if you are someone who is actually being physically harmed, physically abused, in any relationship, there are several free crisis support numbers that I will link to in the show notes. They provide 24 hours a day, seven days a week free support. So please take advantage of these numbers. If you're experiencing any domestic abuse, for any reason, please reach out. So there is that literal piece of physical abuse. 

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But in many instances, we also find ourselves in these situations in maybe less literal ways where we're being emotionally or psychologically manipulated. Or just guilt tripped or harmed by someone who is really trying to demean, or belittle, or manipulate us in ways that are disempowering and in ways that call for very serious responses. 

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Imagine if someone came up to you at work or berated you publicly, and imagine you had the inner fortitude, the inner strength. The inner conviction to simply stand your ground, let them finish their diatribe, look them in the eye, not flinching and say, "Are you done now?" That's the connotation here. 

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Now, that's really hard to do, but there's power in that, that's not being a doormat. There's power in standing there and saying, "Mh-hmm, yes, you come at me with all you got and you cannot shake me because I am still standing here, and you might be able to scream at me. You might be able to use all these tactics and guess what? I am still showing up. I am still going to create. I am still going to use my voice. I am still going to live my life vibrantly because you cannot take that from me." 

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It's that kind of energy, and I see this all the time with people. Where these bullies come in, whether it's online, or whether it's in your community group, or whether it's in your church, 

and people are talking behind your back or they're trying to take you down a peg or two. And it's painful, don't get me wrong, it's painful, and you need to get support, and you need to get a herd around you. You don't want to do this alone. You need to get people around you.

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But this is the connotation of turn the other cheek. And, listen, it takes a minute to get there, there's no shame. Because we get hooked, we get hooked into the fight. We get hooked into the screaming match. We get hooked into the yelling match. We get hooked into trying to meet them on those petty terms. We get hooked into it, and there's no shame in that. Please hear me say that, there's no shame in that, this is a process.

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But I'm trying to paint a picture for you of the goal because, I think, that's what Jesus is getting at here. It's so much deeper than just playing the doormat, it's so much deeper. It's standing there in your full power, in the face of your enemies. I think of David in the Psalms when he says, "You set a table for me before my enemies." And it's that kind of thing. 

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It's like, "Man, they're there. They're out there. They're gossiping about me. They're saying mean things behind my back. They're trying to take me down. They're criticizing me. They're trying to hurt me, and I'm sitting here, and I am just feasting on what the Lord has put in front of me. This banquet that He's placed in front of me. And, yes, I can see them, they're off in the distance there, those ones, my enemies, the ones who want to hurt me. But I'm here feasting because God is for me, and when God is for me, who can be against me." It's that kind of energy. 

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It's knowing, so deeply, that who you are is so important, and so valued, and matters so much to God that you can feast on the goodness of God in the face of your enemies, and that is a powerful weapon. That's what I want for you to understand today, as we talk about what it means to turn the other cheek.

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I want you to begin to go, "You know what? I'm not fighting this battle on their terms anymore. That's their battle. That's their war. Those are their weapons, I got different weapons. And the weapons I have are the weapons of I am loved. The weapons of I have a God who anchors me, and that allows me to be shrewd. 

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That allows me to turn the other cheek and say, 'All right, you might win this stupid, petty battle over here, but I've got the victory, in my life, because I'm doing the work over here of healing my soul through therapy. I'm doing the work over here building up alliances with people who want to be good to each other. Who want to be kind to each other, Who love each other, and who are building beautiful spaces. 

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Where we speak truth, and we speak goodness, and we speak light, and we are creating more and more pockets of goodness, and that is our battleground. That is our battleground, and I'm finding other light-bearers who want to do that work with me. I'm telling my story in communities of people who have compassion, people who are of courage, that's brave work.'"

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Next week, we're going to be talking to Curt Thompson about these confessional communities, where people come together in these groups. 

Where we tell our stories honestly, bravely, in safe places, where we are heard, where we are seen, where we are loved. And as we do that work, there is no match for the power that we unleash in this world. 

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Turning the other cheek is not just taking the pain. It's saying, "You can harm me, but you cannot take my dignity. And I am going to start taking all of this energy that I've been letting you suck me dry with, and put it over here into the work of healing." It is not enabling someone. It's getting yourself out of a toxic situation with as least damage, to yourself, as possible. 

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For more practical, tactical ways to do that, go back and listen to those episodes in the Boundaries series. I'll link to them in the show notes. I go through practical scripts and tips in those episodes. But I want you to understand that is what turning the other cheek does not mean that you give somebody the best of who you are. It means that you turn your cheek in the other direction. 

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You know exactly what is happening and exactly how you feel about it, and that you will give exactly as little as possible, of your own best energy, to that situation anymore. You will be turning your energy into anchoring yourself in the support of health, of wholeness, of goodness. You will no longer let them take the best of who you are. 

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I want to turn here briefly to how you deal with some of these psychological forms, that we really need to address and not let people use against us. It could be anything from just someone who's constantly criticizing you to someone who's manipulating you. Where they're really trying to twist you or guilt trip you into doing something you don't want to do, and it's really subtle sometimes. "Well, okay, I guess if you don't really want to do that, I'll just suffer. It'll just be really hard for me, and I don't really feel like you're loving me." 

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You get that martyr complex from somebody when they're guilt tripping you or trying to manipulate you. That we might see in a parent or in a friend, where they're trying to get us to do something that we just don't really want to do in good conscience. All the way to this idea of gaslighting, where somebody is systematically trying to make you feel crazy. They're manipulating the truth and then going on the offense to put you on your heel, to put you on the defense. 

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For example, let's say if someone borrows your phone, and you catch them. Your phone isn't where you left it, and they've been using it, and they didn't return it to you, and you go to that person and you say, "Hey, you borrowed my phone can I get it back?"

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And they're like, "I didn't borrow your phone, what's wrong with you? Why are you so paranoid? Why are you so controlling?" And, so, they've lied, first of all, they did borrow your phone or they did do the thing, and then they've also turned it against you as if to make you feel like you're crazy. Like, "Wait, what's wrong with me? Why am I this kind of person? Why am I a bad person?" It's this really insidious, toxic form of psychological abuse. 

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These types of behaviors from guilt tripping all the way down to gaslighting, if you think about that spectrum of toxicity, and a spectrum of unhealthy toxic behaviors. 

Turning the other cheek can have a different nuance in each of these situations. It might mean simply refusing to respond, "You can try to guilt trip me, but the answer is still no. Good luck."

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"Thanks, but no thanks, no."

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All the way down to, literally, extracting yourself from the situation. Again, I go through more practical tactical scripts in episode 26, types of no. But today I want to paint this picture of the biblical foundation of what is going on there and I talk about this word a fool, that we see throughout the Bible. There are so many instances of this juxtaposing what a fool is and what a wise person is in the Bible, it's fascinating. 

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I did a very cursory word search of the NIV Bible because I was curious. Because, I think, there's so much in the Bible about being wise versus being a fool. So I did a cursory word search of the NIV Bible, and here are some numbers to put on that. So if you look for instances of the word wise or wisdom in the NIV Bible, it comes up 408 times. If you look for instances of the word foolish or fool, in the NIV Bible, it comes up 238 times. 

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By contrast, if you look for instances of the word hell, in the NIV Bible, it comes up 15 times. It's very interesting. There's a lot in the Bible about being wise versus being foolish. It's a really important topic, and what does that mean, to be wise? What does it mean to be wise? I think there's a lot in this whole thing of being a human. Being an image bearer on this earth, not just someone who is saved for heaven. But being an image bearer on this earth, that has to do with being wise. 

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Jesus says, "Be wise as the serpent and innocent as the dove." And if you think about what it is to be wise as a serpent, the serpent is close to the ground. He's in the weeds, he's on the dirt, he's in the muck, he's in it. And Jesus is saying, "Be wise in that way." You're in the dirt, you're in the muck, you're in the mess, you're in the world, be wise. And if you think about the dove, the dove is above it all. She's flying in the beautiful blue sky, she's pure, she's out of the muck, out of the noise, she's innocent, we need to be both. 

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We need to be wise in the muck and the mud, and innocent as the dove. Where we can soar above and be uncontaminated and set apart, it's both. This work of becoming a human, becoming an image bearer, becoming wise, in this life we have now, is a lot of both. 

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It's figuring out how to navigate the mud and the muck, and even as we figure out how to soar like that dove, we need both. Life involves both. We get those moments of soaring and we also have to figure out our way through the weeds and the muck. Wisdom comprises both. We have to learn how to do both. 

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And, so, when we think about this being wise as a serpent, it's going to involve some of this yuck, some of this toxicity, some of this gaslighting. Some of this psychological warfare, and in some cases, physical warfare against us, and we got to be shrewd through that. We see so much in the Bible about that. 

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So I want to give you a picture of what the Bible paints, about what it means to be a fool. Because there's a lot in the Bible about what it means to be a fool. Here's some of what the Bible says; "Fools care nothing for thoughtful discourse, all they do is run off at the mouth." That's from Proverbs 18:2.

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"Fools are headstrong and do what they like." That's from Proverbs 12:15. 

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"Liars secretly hoard hatred, fools openly spread slander." Proverbs 10:18.

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"The words of a fool starts fights." Proverbs 18:6

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"Fools are headstrong and reckless." Proverbs 14:16.

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"Fools leave a wake of wrecked lives and lies about God, turning their backs on the homeless, the hungry, and ignoring those dying of thirst in the streets." That's Isaiah 32:5-7. 

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Here's my summary of those verses, fools don't care about thoughtful discourse. Do we see this in our culture today? Do we see people really trying to engage thoughtful discourse? We used to use this phrase in graduate school, about complicated problems. And this wasn't from a secular graduate school, this is a concept from psychology. 

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Where we would talk about complicated problems are the kinds of problems about which reasonable people can reasonably disagree. Think about that for a minute. Complicated problems are those about which reasonable people can reasonably disagree. Most of life is complicated problems. It's complicated problems about which we have to learn to be reasonable people, who reasonably disagree. 

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This is what it means to be married. This is what it means to be a friend. This is what it means to be a church community. This is what it means to be a neighborhood. 

This is what it means to be a nation. We have to come together as reasonable people, who can reasonably disagree. There's a lot of room for disagreement about a lot of problems. 

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Now, there are some problems about which we can't reasonably disagree, they're just wrong. But there's a lot about which we can reasonably disagree. There is so little of that that we see in our culture, in our world, in our neighborhoods, today. Fools don't care about thoughtful discourse. 

Fools don't care about respecting others. Fools harbor bitterness, and lies, and gossip. Fools are more interested in starting fights than in really engaging dialogue. Fools are reckless, and fools do not care about the people who are hurting the most. 

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That's how we measure a fool, and that is not who we want to be. We need to not become fools, and we need to watch out for the fools. That's where you need to be shrewd, wise, when you're dealing with a fool. When you consider this idea of what it means to turn the other cheek, it doesn't mean letting a fool take advantage of you. It means being able to call out, "Oh, that's foolishness. That's just downright foolishness, I want no part of that."

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"That's not what it means to be a child of God."

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"That's not what it means to be a person who is wise, I want no part of that."

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That's how you turn the other cheek when you spot a fool. You call it out for what it is, and you take no part in it. You get yourself away from it as fast as you can. 

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So number one, do everything you can, first and foremost, to not be a fool. Lesson number one is to not be a fool. Instead, you want to become someone who is wise. So what does that look like? What does it look like to become someone who is wise? Well, there's a couple of things I'm going to read for you from Scripture, some of these passages about what it looks like to be wise.

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"Escape quickly from the company of fools, they're a waste of your time, a waste of your words." That's Proverbs 14:7.

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"Do not speak to fools, for they will scorn your prudent words." Proverbs 23:9.

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"Don't respond to the stupidity of a fool, you'll only look foolish yourself. Answer a fool in simple terms, so he doesn't get a swelled head." Proverbs 26:4-5. There's so much wisdom in these passages.

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Here is more, "Fools are undone by their big mouths. Their souls are crushed by their words." Proverbs 18:7.

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"The person who plants selfishness, ignoring the needs of others, ignoring God, harvests a crop of weeds. All he'll have to show for his life is weeds." Galatians 6:7.

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"A fool lets it all hang out. A sage quietly mulls it over." Proverbs 29:11. 

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So there's sort of a picture here we're arriving at. How do we respond to fools? Well, number one, we call out fools when we see them. We start to identify them. We want no part of them. 

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Number two, we limit our words and our interactions with them. Less is more, when it comes to communicating with someone who is a fool. We don't play the word game with them. We, number one, won't win because that's what they're good at. And, number two, we just don't have the time of day for that. It's not worth our time. We resist attempts to explain ourselves or get them to understand. Our actions speak louder than our words when it comes to the fool. 

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And then the other thing that we get at is we let the foolish person suffer his or her own consequences, and this can be challenging. But there is a way in which, the Scripture is teaching, fools are going to take themselves out, at a given point. They're going to bury themselves in their own rubble. 

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And, so, one of the most loving things you can do is just quarantine the fool. Keep yourselves away from them so that they're not harming you. Neutralize them and then let them burn themselves out, and this can be hard if you're somebody who's empathetic, you want to save the person. But if they've consistently shown a pattern of trying to harm you, there's a lesson here for us, of just walking away from foolishness and allowing them to suffer the consequences that they actually need to suffer. 

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There's a way in which you can stay anchored in your own integrity and then you reach for another strategy of the wise. And I'm going to read you a couple more Scriptures here. "Wise people take wise advice." Proverbs 12:15. 

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"You become wise by walking with the wise. You hang out with fools and watch your life fall to pieces." Proverbs 13:20 to become someone who knows how to turn the other cheek in wise, strong, powerful ways, you first have to be able to identify the fool, the gaslighter, the manipulator, the gossiper, the bullier. The one who's just trying to create ruckus, and create noise, and create harm, and to create chaos, and to undermine people, and to harm people. That's all they got, and it can hurt. 

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It can hurt, don't get me wrong, it really can hurt. But the first step is just to go, "Oh, that's what this is. I see you, I see the game you're playing, and I'm not playing that game with you." Number one. 

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Number two, it's to get yourself away from it, to quarantine it as best you can. To let them suffer their own consequences. You do not have to be the one to take them down. That's what it means to turn the other cheek. You don't engage in the battle on their terms because you won't win on their terms. But you turn that other cheek and go, "Oh, I see what you're doing. Uh-uh, no, I'm not playing that game with you. I'm not fighting fire with fire."

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And, number three, instead, "I am going to go surround myself with other people who are interested in becoming wise. Who are interested in building good things. Who are interested in using their power for good." Those people are out there, I promise you, they are. 

And stay tuned for our next series, starting next week, because we're going to talk all about how to find them. But those people are there. 

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And, so, if you want to turn the other cheek, you stop messing around with those fools, and you start anchoring yourself in your own dignity, and you start finding those other people to align yourself with. In standing on the truth of what it means to be wise in this world, God has called us to be innocent and to be wise. In this world God has called us and equipped us to live in with integrity, with conviction, with courage, with confidence, knowing that we have the God of all goodness, of all truth, of all strength on our side. 

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Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You. It would mean so much if you take a moment to subscribe. You can go to apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts and click the Plus or Follow button. That will ensure you don't miss an episode and it helps get the word out to others. While you're there, I'd love it if you'd leave your five-star review. I look forward to seeing you back here next Thursday. And remember, as you become the best of who you are, you honor God, you heal others, and you stay true to your God-given self.

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