The Difference Between God's Voice and Spiritual Manipulation with Theologian Steven Tracy
Episode Notes
Scripture is powerful.
It has the power to comfort, guide, convict, and restore. But when it's taken out of context or used to control, it can also leave deep wounds.
In this conversation, Dr. Alison sits down with theologian and Mending the Soul co-founder Dr. Steven Tracy to explore how Scripture can be used as medicine—or as poison—for those who have experienced abuse.
Together, they unpack some of the most commonly misused passages around submission, forgiveness, honoring parents, and divorce, while offering a more faithful way of reading Scripture: one that reflects God's heart for the vulnerable, the oppressed, and the wounded.
Here’s what you’ll cover
* Why spiritually abusive people often weaponize Scripture
* How to recognize the difference between biblical truth and spiritual manipulation
* What God reveals about His heart for those experiencing abuse
* Why humility matters when we interpret Scripture
* How healthy boundaries honor both God and human dignity
* How survivors can begin rebuilding trust in both God and His Word
Whether you've experienced spiritual abuse yourself, love someone who has, or simply want to handle Scripture with greater wisdom and compassion, this conversation offers both clarity and hope.
Because God's Word was never meant to keep you trapped in harm.
It was always meant to lead you toward healing.
More Resources:
You can now preorder Dr. Alison’s newest book, The Secure Soul, and immediately receive the first 3 chapters as well as early access to the companion guide!
Read Dr. Steven Tracy’s book: To Heal or Harm
Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram
Curious what Family Role may have shaped you? Take the Family Role Quiz to learn how you may be showing up in your relationships with others.
Want to hear more like this? Start here:
Episode 163: Healing Spiritual Wounds – Understanding Abuse in Faith Spaces
Episode 17: What is Church Hurt and How Do I Heal?
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here
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TRANSCRIPT
Hey everyone. I’m Dr. Alison, and I’m so glad you’re here.
Today’s conversation is a powerful one. My guest is Dr. Steven Tracy, theologian and the co-founder of Mending the Soul, a global mission dedicated to resourcing and equpinpping community and faith leaders in informed and compassionate responses to those impacted by abuse.
He is the author of a new book called To Heal or Harm: Scripture’s Use as Poison or Medicine for Abuse Survivors.
And that title really says it all.
Because Scripture is powerful. It is living and active. It can comfort us, ground us, guide us, correct us, and bring us back to the heart of God. But because Scripture is powerful, when it is misused—when it is twisted, weaponized, or wielded by someone seeking power or control—it can also cause devastating harm.
For so many abuse survivors, including many of you, the wound is not only what happened to you. It’s what was said to you in God’s name afterward.
“You need to forgive.”
“You need to submit.”
“You need to honor your father and mother.”
“God hates divorce.”
“Don’t gossip.”
“Don’t be bitter.”
“Don’t touch God’s anointed.”
These are words and ideas taken from Scripture, but when they are ripped from the larger heart of God, they can become tools of silencing instead of pathways to healing.
And that is what Steve helps us name today.
One of the most painful realities we talk about today is that sometimes the most vulnerable people are the ones most easily harmed by distorted theology because they genuinely want to obey God. They want to be faithful. They want to be gracious. They want to forgive. They want to do what Scripture says.
And yet faithfulness to God never means surrendering your dignity to someone who is destroying you.
That’s where I want to pause for a moment with a passage from Exodus 3 that Steven will expand on in today’s episode. God says to Moses:
“I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters. I know their sufferings, and I have come down to deliver them.”
That passage gives us such a clear picture of God’s heart.
God sees.
God hears.
God knows.
God comes down to deliver.
God does not minimize oppression. He does not spiritualize abuse. He does not ask the vulnerable to pretend they are fine in order to protect the powerful. God sees the affliction of his people. He hears their cries. He knows their suffering—not just intellectually, but personally, compassionately, intimately. And he moves toward them with deliverance.
That matters so much for anyone who has been taught, explicitly or implicitly, that God is mostly concerned with preserving appearances, protecting institutions, or keeping a family together at any cost.
The God of Scripture is not indifferent to harm. He is not unmoved by suffering. He is not aligned with the abuser. He is near to the brokenhearted. He protects the vulnerable. He exposes what is hidden. He tells the truth.
In this conversation, Steve helps us understand how Scripture can be misused in marriage, in families, in churches, and in counseling contexts. We talk about common passages that get weaponized around submission and forgiveness. And We also talk about how to read Scripture with humility, with wisdom, and with special attention to those who are vulnerable.
One of the things I appreciated most about Steve is his posture. He has deep theological training, but he also speaks with humility. He names how much he has learned from survivors, from women, from marginalized communities, and from people whose life experiences helped him see things in Scripture he had previously missed.
That kind of humility matters. Because when Scripture is interpreted from a place of unchecked power, it can be used to protect the powerful. But when we come to Scripture with humility, with reverence, and with the heart of Jesus, we begin to see again and again that God’s heart bends toward the wounded, the oppressed, the silenced, and the vulnerable.
So whether you are a survivor yourself, whether you love someone who has been harmed, or whether you are a pastor, counselor, leader, or friend who wants to help without causing more harm, I think this conversation will give you language, clarity, and hope.
The title of Steve’s book is To Heal or Harm. And my prayer as you listen is that Scripture would become again what God intended it to be—not a weapon used against you, but a place where you encounter the God who sees you, hears you, knows your suffering, and comes near to bring healing.
Please enjoy my conversation with STeve Tracy
Alison (00:10.962)
So Steve, you start this book, such a powerful book, and there's a lot in it, but you start with a story of a woman named Cheryl. And the title of the book is To Heal or Harm, right? To Heal or Harm. And she is an example of someone for whom scripture was used in a harmful, very harmful manner. Can you share with my listeners who haven't read the book yet?
A little bit about her story and why it was an important place for you to start to frame this conversation.
steve tracy (00:47.296)
Absolutely. I was introduced to Cheryl through my wife Celeste, through their friendship and
Celesta's ministry and Cheryl's life. And Celesta just spoken so highly of Cheryl and said, This woman is has such a heart for Christ, and she just wants nothing but to honor the Lord, follow Scripture, and sadly Scripture has been really leveraged against her. but I just heard such respect from Celeste for Cheryl as she was in a horrible
Abusive marriage, but but trying to figure out, you know, she had a spiritually abusive husband with with advanced degrees in theology who just weaponized scripture against her. She'd grown up in a very fundamentalistic church that weaponized scripture against her. So she really illustrated at the highest level, most destructive level, how
A man or a woman who wants to follow God has and obeys scripture actually can find themselves in tremendous bondage because of that heart to honor God and follow scripture, when scripture is misused. And Charles
Alison (01:53.278)
Yeah.
Alison (02:09.737)
Yeah.
steve tracy (02:11.563)
become a dear friend and I we just so so respect the journey she's been on and she graciously agreed to you know write that introduction to the book really it comes out of a lot of pain but there it's a beautiful sequel in that we've just seen the Lord's healing in her life and rebuilding, restoring. So she kind of symbolizes the the whole picture of the the harm
Alison (02:24.361)
Yeah.
steve tracy (02:39.935)
scriptures weaponized, but that's not the end of the story. It need not be the end of the story. th those same scriptures that were mu used against us can be a tremendous source of life and healing. So, yeah. She covers the whole thing.
Alison (02:43.049)
Yeah.
Alison (02:54.771)
I love I love how you talk about this because you you talk in the book and it and it really makes sense because scripture's powerful. So when it is weaponized, when it is used against us, it's powerful, but it is also so powerful for healing. I always think of the the verse in Song of Solomon that says, Love is as strong as death. The the love of scripture, the love of God is stronger. but
steve tracy (03:17.74)
Yes.
Alison (03:24.625)
You say in the book, and I think it's a really well put that scripture can become poison or medicine, especially for abuse survivors. And tell unpack that a little bit. What is it? Why is you know, why is it so powerful? How you you know, you're you're kind of getting at it with Cheryl's story, but it's like we we want to follow scripture. So we're primed for a vulnerability there if someone is mis.
using it, especially if we're being already being silenced or abused or or a victim. What have you seen in in how's you know, how that happens and why it's so powerful in that way?
steve tracy (04:06.966)
Yeah. abusers take advantage of vulnerabilities, naivities. abusers and not that one size fits all. There's as many kinds of abusers as there are people, but there are certainly gent some general characteristics. And I liken liken abusers to sharks that n that smell blood in the water. They're looking for the vulnerabilities. So often it's
individuals that just have a an innocent, naive trust, you know, think children, others, that that can be so taken advantage of. Or or an an an innocent, naive again, desire to do what's right. And that's a good thing, but if it's not coupled with life experience and wisdom, and it's that's not a judgmental statement, you know,
sometimes we we just haven't had certain experiences so we're we're naive, not in any kind of a bad sense other than we're more vulnerable 'cause you don't know what you don't know. And abusers take advantage of that. that just innocent desire to honor God.
Alison (05:17.535)
Yeah.
Alison (05:24.608)
Yeah.
steve tracy (05:25.334)
That's beautiful, but if you're if you're not astute to the reality of evil, the the the characteristics of evildoers, boy that that can just be deadly. And so often Christians because we want to be trusting and loving, etcetera,
We don't want to be mean. We don't set the boundaries that we need to set. And I know just from looking at your website, you talk, I think, quite a bit about boundaries that's actually necessary. but if if we don't understand that, we don't know how to do that, we can be really vulnerable. And then scripture is kind of the ultimate tool, so to speak, in a spiritual context. It's God's word. So if I can just
dump scripture on you, I I've I've got the trump card, right? Well, unless you know how to interpret it for yourself with some confidence, then I I you you stand condemned. Like you have to do what I say because I'm saying what God says, so you have to do it. And that that's how this often works.
Alison (06:22.686)
Yes. That's right.
Alison (06:33.47)
Yes.
Alison (06:39.004)
Yeah, and this is the essence of spiritual abuse, right? Taking the name of God in vain, you know, misusing the name of God for power and control and manipulation and ill intent, which is just you such the heart of the work that you're doing, you and your wife, as you're trying to help people heal. yes, I so so Steve, my a lot of my audience, we talk a lot about.
steve tracy (06:42.531)
Right.
steve tracy (06:49.75)
Right. Right.
Okay.
Alison (07:06.098)
And it comes a lot out of my own story of being high in empathy, a natural kind of people pleaser, but but that sort of fond response that has been conditioned, and then it's reinforced in many ways by faith culture. Just as you're saying, we want to be kind. And there's a real genuineness behind that. and I always think of the verse, it's just becomes such a a powerful verse for me. Be shrewd.
steve tracy (07:27.938)
Right.
Alison (07:34.226)
As the snake and innocent as the dove, right? It's both. We have to be shrewd and wise. And for some people, one of the other of those is easier. But for many of the people in my audience, it's learning that the shrewd ways where you can kind of outwit the person who's trying to take advantage of you.
steve tracy (07:37.432)
Love that. Right, right.
steve tracy (07:54.349)
Yeah, ab absolutely. And honestly, I think it's more difficult in the evangelical culture for women. In the sense that there's just a lot of kind of innate patriarchy. I don't want to get into a whole gender role discussion here. That's not my point, but if a man sets boundaries often in an evangelical church context, that's okay, he's just being a man.
Alison (08:01.715)
Yes.
Alison (08:22.42)
Yeah.
steve tracy (08:23.32)
But if a woman stands up for herself and sets boundaries, often that's that that's frowned on at best and really demeaned at worst. And that's that that's
Manifestly un unfair and wrong. Every human it doesn't matter whether you're a man or a woman, this isn't a gender issue. You have a right biblically to set boundaries. And and we need to be able to affirm that for people. There's a way to do it, of course. but that's not being ungodly, unloving, etc., if we set healthy boundaries.
Alison (09:03.048)
Yeah. I love that. So there's two directions I really want to go. One is getting at what you're saying, this idea of how power and and even hermeneutics, how interpreting scripture can get misused. the other way I wanna go is more practical. I wanna start there and then circle back to some of the scripture interpretation stuff. Because I remember when I was I first started seminary, because I did my
Initial masters in counseling at a at a seminary. And I remember my professors saying it was the first time I'd heard this, everybody brings a lens to scripture. And just because you're Protestant or just because you're evangelical, you know, our our Catholic brothers and sisters, I think, you know, you can you can argue with some of the theologies, but they do understand that we're bringing an interpretive lens to scripture. But so are are we Protestants, so are we evangelicals. And you again, you can bring one that's harmful or you can bring one
steve tracy (09:40.558)
Right.
Alison (10:00.926)
And I love how you land on this in the book that honors the most vulnerable. I I just I think that is such a powerful place that you land. I guess I just went in that, I guess I just went down that path. So we'll go down that path. we'll come back to the actual scriptures in a bit for those of you listening. But I just I think it's important to zoom up for a second and go, how are we approaching the text? Because
You can you can approach the text with ill intent, but you can also be naive in approaching the t the text and do harm. So tell me a little bit about how you arrived. You you've studied, you know, you've been a pastor, you've been in seminary, you've studied scripture, that this idea that we have to read it through the lens of the most vulnerable.
steve tracy (10:55.758)
Yeah, well I would even even move it up twenty thousand more feet at the highest level and say, I really think the starting point in most respects for sound interpretation of scripture, technical word is hermeneutics, is is to begin with a humble receptive posture. And you know, i in our flesh we
Alison (11:01.512)
Yes, yes.
steve tracy (11:24.908)
we tend to not recognize our own vulnerabilities and biases, etc. And that's not only about sin. It's also just about, you know, we're we're products of our culture. So we we breathe the air around us, so to speak. So if
There are certain things that aren't even questioned. If we lived roughly 150 years ago in the South as Christians, we would have thought, with very few exceptions, that slavery was thoroughly biblical. And and it's easy for us in 2026 to look back and say, what idiots they were. How could they have thought that? But
again, we're w we're products of our culture in in so many ways and so we have lenses that we don't even recognize. We we just it's just how we think.
culture as well as sin, but it's both. They're not the same. But that that feeds in it creates a like a you know lens through which we read scripture. So having a humble receptive posture is the beginning place. Just in essence saying to yourself, and I would often tell my seminary students this, have often said this,
You have and I some really wrong beliefs. But here's the scary thing. Most of them we're not aware of. But I think that's a fair starting place to assume because we're fallible, finite, and sinful human beings, there's some things that we think that are not right.
steve tracy (13:15.648)
And how are we gonna have those surfaced? The only way is if we have a a humble receptive posture. One of the things coming back, Alison, to your comment about
Alison (13:21.876)
Good.
steve tracy (13:29.592)
the vulnerable, the marginalized. I I'm the pinnacle of power, right? I I'm white, I'm male, at least in the church world, I have a PhD in biblical studies, like, you know, how in the world am I gonna recognize some of my wrong thinking if I am not willing to listen to the voices of those with very different experiences?
I shudder in hindsight at some of the things I th thought, said, as a young pastor right out of seminary. my goodness. I I was clueless to the experiences of the marginalized of women, people of color, of of abuse survivors. Those weren't my experiences. So my world was so different, and the only way I could and I read scripture accordingly.
Alison (14:18.228)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alison (14:27.199)
Wow.
steve tracy (14:28.494)
But in over the years, God's really humbled me in a countless ways. And I've learned to listen to those voices. It's not that scripture changes, but the lens that I have through which I read scripture has dramatically shifted. And so I see things in the text I just didn't see before. they were there, but I didn't see them. So yeah.
Alison (14:50.912)
Interesting. It's that's powerful what you're saying, that it was through your own. I love that emphasis on humility because there is humility, your willingness to be with others whose stories were so different from your own that challenged. Was there any specific moment or one that stands out of that lens?
getting shattered or at least challenged because I think that can be that's that's a very formational process to open yourself to that.
steve tracy (15:30.536)
absolutely. one of those most pivotal moments, it was really a I mean, I look back on it and say, This is the grace of God. cause Steve Tracy needed some massive reframe in his thinking. I share it in the book. I was doing a s
part of a preaching series. I was one of the teaching pastors and we were doing a series on family life. And my goodness, I had a master's in theology, so I and I could read it from the Greek. So I mean I had it wired, right? And I preached one of the sermons on on family life and I thought frankly it was an excellent sermon. And
Monday morning I had a a letter in my box from a young woman in our church. she was in our singles ministry. I ov I oversaw singles among other things. And she unloaded both barrels on me. And and it was very appropriately so. And she basically said, I I've sat through four or five weeks now of sermons on the family. She said it nicer than this, but basically said, You guys are clueless.
You you're telling us to honor our parents, to forgive, to submit. Do you know what it's like to flee from an abusive father who who beats you senseless? Do you know what it's like to be woken up in the middle of the night by your mother fleeing for her life with her children? And then you tell us we're simply supposed to forgive, submit, respect, on and on. Before you
Alison (16:53.632)
Yeah.
steve tracy (17:12.788)
Issue your grand again, she said it much more kindly, but what I heard from the Spirit was before you issue your grand pronouncements, start listening to the experiences of your flock that are different from your own, and you will be addressing scripture different differently. That was a moment of tremendous humbling for me.
Alison (17:17.525)
Yeah.
Alison (17:31.61)
Mm. Wow.
Alison (17:37.684)
Yeah.
steve tracy (17:38.019)
And I have gone back and apologized to that woman. but that was one of the bigger moments. Going to Africa for the first time in 2007 was the second. it was and and that was to the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I've been over twenty times now.
have staff there. It's been called the rape epicenter of the world. There's a level of violence, particularly against women, that's it it just takes your breath away, gives you literal nightmares, but God's it work in profound ways. But that first conference, initially it was how can these people be so
malignantly patriarchal and how can they be defending all this? And and we were there almost a month and then they started in appropriate ways challenging me about things that I'd never thought about.
Alison (18:35.624)
Mm.
steve tracy (18:37.774)
from forgiveness to honoring parents to respect for the elderly to a variety of things. And it and God just overwhelmingly convicted me that I had looked down on people of another culture because I could see certain things that really don't accord with scripture.
But I was completely oblivious to things in my culture that I didn't even question. And they were pointing that out. And that was a second one
Alison (19:04.584)
Mm.
steve tracy (19:08.366)
It was painful, but boy, I needed that. So that's that's just really given those two events in particular. There have been dozens, if not hundreds, of others, but those were particularly powerful in just surfacing my need to come to life and especially scripture with some humbleness, a lot of humbleness, and and receptivity. Lord show me. I I love what David says at the end of Psalm 139 when he has spent
Alison (19:12.329)
Yeah.
Alison (19:31.22)
Yeah.
steve tracy (19:38.413)
the whole chapter, or the author, saying, God knows everything about me. If I go to the highest heavens, he's there. If I go to the shield, he's there. Before there's a word on my tongue, he knows it, you know, etc. He knows everything about me. But then you get to the very end of Psalm 139.
Says, search me, O God, and know me. Well, that's not for God's benefit. He's just said God knows everything. That's for the author's benefit. and see if there's any unhealthy way in me. Lead me in the way everlasting, the way of righteousness. He he's saying, God, I'm assuming there's there's there's
Alison (20:03.434)
Yeah.
Alison (20:11.348)
Yeah, yeah.
Alison (20:19.36)
Mm.
steve tracy (20:29.27)
All kinds of things that are unhealthy in my heart. I don't see and you see, please reveal that to me. That should be our posture coming to Scripture. God, I'm sure I've got some s some things wrong here, but I don't know what they are. Show me, Lord. And often what God will use to show us will be other brothers and sisters who've had a very different life experience.
Alison (20:41.501)
Yes.
Yeah.
Alison (20:55.028)
Yeah.
steve tracy (20:55.81)
that see things differently. Their experiences are different. And that'll maybe wake up some things in us that need to be woken up, a a shift of perspective. And it's particularly needed right now. in our culture, we are so polarized. It it's, you know, you're on the right or you're on the left. And then that's light and dark. I mean, there is no middle ground. There's no discussion.
Alison (21:21.205)
I know.
steve tracy (21:23.456)
And we can't learn from each other. And that's not just sad, but it's tragic. Because there's error on the right and the left in every way, you know. W we need to learn from each other, but only a humble receptive posture is gonna let us get those insights that ultimately then are gonna help shape and correct.
Alison (21:31.954)
It's tragic.
steve tracy (21:51.116)
Misconceptions when we come to reading God's word.
Alison (21:54.611)
It it is so everything you're saying is so profound and so countercultural to your point. I I find myself I do a part part for for many of the reasons you do the work you do, I do a now a daily devotional podcast where I I bring sort of psychological wisdom to scripture and I'm very clear. I'm not trying to argue the the doctrines, I'm simply trying to highlight these themes that I think are so evident, themes like attachment and
steve tracy (22:00.046)
Yeah.
Alison (22:24.582)
And securiti and you know, God's love that are in the scripture and suffering and things that don't often get highlighted. And I've heard from so many people that say, Gosh, I I it's so helpful to hear that you know, I I was kind of almost inoculated against those scriptures because of the way they've been used for harm, but then you see them from a different light. And I I say that because sometimes I I sh I personally have
Shy away from taking on some of the, and I guess where I'm going with this is humble receptivity doesn't mean we don't have beliefs. It doesn't mean we don't have opinions. It doesn't mean we don't care. But it does mean we are more interested. I guess I would say I I'm not as interested in being right. I I'm I have, and it gets to me at psych the psychology of differentiation. I can hold.
steve tracy (23:04.312)
Absolutely. Right.
Alison (23:21.48)
A view, I can hold an opinion and also understand that I'm still probably missing some things and I have something to learn from you. And that's just hard. Those kinds of conversations are in the public space. I can lots of people in private I'll have those conversations with are very hard to come by. Very hard to come by.
steve tracy (23:43.032)
So hard to come by. my goodness. but we are
I'll use the word impoverished if we don't have those conversations. We're we'll be in an echo chamber. And then if we're not careful, the only podcasts we listen to, the only news that we listen to, will all reflect our our preconceptions. And so so they just reinforce what we already believe, some of which is dead wrong.
Alison (23:54.942)
Ooh.
Alison (23:58.784)
Mm-hmm.
Alison (24:14.973)
Exactly.
steve tracy (24:23.124)
So we we've gotta have those conversations and voices.
And and and you rightly say, Alison, it doesn't mean we don't have convictions, but this is how we sharpen our convictions. And even if nothing changes in our conviction, it will dramatically change how we view other people. Even if at the end of the conversation we s we still think our conviction is right and that other posture is wrong, and it may well be that we change, but let's assume we don't change. We will look at that other person.
Alison (24:43.498)
Good.
Alison (24:55.337)
Yeah.
steve tracy (24:58.96)
Differently. There'll be a level of compassion that's and understanding that wasn't there before. And that is that's the heart of Jesus. Like he, there's a reason it was the spiritual leaders, the Pharisees and Sadducees, that hated him and the sinners that flocked to him. And it
Alison (25:19.657)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yes.
steve tracy (25:24.262)
Obviously Jesus had, I mean to use your language, strong convictions, of course, but the way he lived those out was was with such tenderness, such compassion, such understanding. You know, like the woman at the well in John 4. He's not justifying immorality in the least, but he he had such an app
Alison (25:29.246)
Yes.
steve tracy (25:53.135)
appreciation i i in the sense of deep understanding of her woundedness. She wasn't just a Samaritan, let alone just a slut, basically. That's she was engaging in inappropriate behavior, but that that wasn't all he saw the person and the need.
Alison (26:14.046)
Yes. What's the whole story? Yeah. Yeah.
steve tracy (26:16.94)
Right. And that's what we want to learn to do. Jesus models this for us. So we need to do it, especially now in this horrifically polarized age where we slap a label on someone and they're woke, they're right, they're left, whatever, and then we don't hear anything they have to say and we don't learn. We're not challenged and they're they're just a label and not a human being that needs compassion.
Alison (26:22.048)
Yeah, he does.
Alison (26:39.701)
Yeah.
Alison (26:46.28)
Amen. Yeah. Well said. What Steve, what are I'm just curious, in your years of work in the trenches and hearing people's stories, what are some of the most common ways you've seen scripture weaponized, especially in marriage, family, and church contexts?
steve tracy (27:06.39)
Yeah. A as far as specific texts.
Alison (27:10.196)
Yeah, sure.
steve tracy (27:15.186)
It's probably yeah, I mean dozens of texts immediately come to mind. you know, I I give the example Allison in the book years ago when we still lived in Phoenix. We live in Portland, Oregon now, and boy, that's a tale of two cities. Talking about being able to appreciate and understand both both sides politically.
Alison (27:34.378)
Yeah.
Yes, I bet.
steve tracy (27:38.815)
Which has been been really good for for a lot of reasons. But at this time, it was probably close to 20 years ago, one of our board members was on the Phoenix City Council and had a tremendous heart for abuse and abused women in particular and and sponsored a lot of domestic violence programs in the city of Phoenix. So she got me in with all of the domestic violence directors. not
Not just faith-based, but that time there were 12, 14 primary DV shelters, and she got me an audience with all of them, set it up, had me do a presentation, you know, 20-30 minutes on mending the soul and our resources for for abused women, children. And then I took took some QA time and I watched one woman like you can feel the energy, you can like and it was
She was just about to burst. So she I mean, the second I finished and and asked if there are any questions, she literally just jumped up and blurted out, What does many of the soul say about wives smitting? And she in essence was quoting from Ephesians five twenty-four. And again, most of these were not
Alison (28:51.637)
Yeah.
Alison (28:56.756)
Yeah. Yeah.
steve tracy (29:02.978)
Faith based shelters, a couple of them were, most weren't, mainly trained social workers, but boy, all and these were all female directors and w she articulated you could tell what they were all asking. I mean they're all their heads are nodding and I'm on the spot, like what can you say about women submit and everything. So I think that's probably the most commonly as f as it relates to family life, and and the husband's the head from First Corinthians eleven one would be a close second. Those those are really
Alison (29:15.934)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Alison (29:32.298)
Mm.
steve tracy (29:32.865)
overlapping though those two texts because on the face if you don't look if you don't use sound hermeneutics you don't apply don't look at the context you don't let scripture interpret scripture you could take both of those to as many do and say the man has all the power the woman just need to submit that's God's plan and if you're not submitting you're out of the will of God end of discussion and if you do that with those texts that we have we have
basically given a carte blanche opportunity for abuse and it's done in the name of obeying scripture. So that's
Alison (30:10.291)
Yeah. yeah.
Alison (30:15.774)
Yeah. How do you so with something like either those scriptures or others, how do you begin to entangle what they actually mean? How how do you approach that? Because I I know sometimes in my own work what I will do is immediately say, I'm not here to to to jump into a debate on whether you're egalitarian or complementarian. I I what I am here to do is say whatever you're you know, believe
you you you that you have to be risk you know we have to honor human dignity. but sometimes I don't know if that's you know how how do you you know so I always try to disarm the immediate like what I feel like is often a red herring like what's the correct interpretation versus what is actually harming human souls? And and and that's sort of my therapeutic lens.
steve tracy (30:51.363)
Right.
Yeah.
steve tracy (31:12.31)
Yeah.
Alison (31:12.518)
Right. So for example, if I have a man and a woman in my office, I I've never done a lot of couples counseling, but let's say, you know, to me it's like I it's less about trying to get the guy to to to have a different doctrine. And it's more about what how can we honor this woman sitting in front of you? Or less about having the woman have a different doctrine and more about how do you honor this person God made you to be? That's my bottom line conviction. But I guess I'm curious because you've been a pastor.
Ан сортов аз а терапист, томі дас ава інте.
steve tracy (31:42.051)
Yeah.
steve tracy (31:45.91)
Yeah, and that's a fair approach at that in that context.
Alison (31:47.614)
I'm curious how you how you try to untangle that. Do you think
There are inherently harmful doctrines that actually need to be dismantled, or how do you actually kind of dig into teasing out the the passage from the harmful ways they've been applied?
steve tracy (32:08.492)
Yeah, excellent question. And given my biblical studies training, I go ahead and go for the details. That's what I'm trained to do. But I I agree with you in that you know, in in this book I don't get into issues of ordaining women. I have some real strong views. I'm and if
Alison (32:09.874)
Okay.
Alison (32:18.142)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alison (32:27.55)
Right.
Yeah.
steve tracy (32:35.202)
I'm not afraid to say Slus and I are I don't even like the complementarian egalitarian language 'cause biblically I think both sides are believe in gender complementation. The question is whether it's hierarchical, in a power sense. I I'd rather use mutualist hierarchical as the two categories. But I I don't get into ordaining women in the book, even though I come we
Alison (32:50.377)
Interesting.
Alison (32:57.93)
Interesting.
Ye like the hot button issues, you don't
steve tracy (33:04.15)
Well, it's a i it's a hot button. I'm p not at all afraid to have that discussion, but I try to build on common ground that whether or not one believes that in in more traditional gender roles so to speak, surely from the biblical text we should be able to agree to these things.
Alison (33:26.272)
Hmm, that's good.
steve tracy (33:29.686)
I I do and it's probably the lengthiest or at least this one of the lengthiest sections of the book is is unpacking Ephesians 524. Again, I don't approach it in terms primarily of of model gender model of marriage, but just note several things right in the text that will rule out abuses.
Alison (33:56.97)
Yes.
steve tracy (33:57.419)
Starting with the fact that that the paragraph begins in verse 21, and that's indisputable, because there is no verb in verse 22. The the verb is assumed from verse 21. and then
Everyone all exegetes agree on that. So the the paragraph on guidelines for husbands, wives and marriage begins with submitting one to another in verse twenty one. Now not all self-identified complementarians agree with me here, but I give arguments for saying, no, that's
That's mutual, that's back and forth. And other passages of scripture support that, particularly first Corinthians seven, one through five, in a context of s sexuality in marriage, sexual intimacy, Paul expressly says the wife does not have
Alison (34:41.534)
Yeah.
steve tracy (34:57.868)
authentic authority over her own body, but the husband does, and then he flips it upside down and says the husband doesn't have authority over his own body, but the wife does. I mean that's as mutual as you could ever ask for. So I think that's a very relevant. It's the same author and it's a similar topic. So you know, those are the kind of observations from the text that help really temper even if you one believes that
Alison (35:08.202)
Yeah.
steve tracy (35:27.182)
God has ordained gender roles in a hierarchical way in marriage, there's per I I I call it parameters of submission. some guidelines that we should all be able to agree on, whether one comes from a
Alison (35:37.198)
Mm, mm-hmm.
steve tracy (35:46.157)
self-labeled complementarian or egalitarian position. and then secondly right out of that that passage in Ephesians four, it it's it's amazing to me how and we see this so often with abusive men, they just want to camp on wives submit and completely ignore
the broader context, I mean it's it's just right there in those verses that describe what male I mean if you wanna use male headship language, male authority language, that describe what that looks like. It looks like
self-sacrifice patterned after Jesus who gave himself for his bride the church putting others' needs above one's own, you know, and nurturing for well being. We all wherever we're at on the continuum, we should be able to to agree, 'cause that's what's right there in the text. And if you get that
Alison (36:25.63)
Yeah. Yeah. Laying down your life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's Amen. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
steve tracy (36:52.426)
Man, you've precluded abuse. And that's out of the picture.
Alison (36:54.686)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I like that. That's a I really like how you're describing it's it's about mutualism, regardless of where you land on some of the and being like Jesus. That's the baseline. You can't you can't you can't really argue with that. and if your if if your doctrine is yeah. Yeah. Ha how how you gosh, I could just I could talk to you all day, Stephen. I wanna I do wanna get to this question.
steve tracy (37:10.274)
Yeah.
steve tracy (37:14.008)
Shouldn't
Alison (37:26.568)
We've kind of teased out the way scripture can harm. As you've worked with people with especially survivors of abuse, how do you begin to help people separate out God's actual heart from the distorted image of God through scripture? So that because understandably, sometimes folks, when they come out of abuse, ditch the whole the whole shebang because it's been used against them. How do you help?
steve tracy (37:54.456)
Yeah.
Alison (37:56.171)
Folks, and give I'm curious of some maybe some words of of hope that you've seen. And I know you we kind of brings us back to Cheryl's story.
steve tracy (38:05.708)
Yeah. again, e excellent question. I I was very recently did an online training for 150 or so Spanish speaking leaders from twelve different countries and heard some of the most heartbreaking stories, testimonies of of abuse and what what some of these people, men and women had
experienced and also heard God's redemption. But what I focused on in that training and that's what I would pass on here is again it comes back to scripture but taking different biblical texts that describe God's response to abuse and letting that be our paradigm.
It's easy and we don't want to discount our experiences, but we also wanna be sensitive to the fact that our experiences how we interpret our experiences may be f
may be colored, may may be off. And so that's where scripture can be that healthy corrective. And we look in the book of Exodus, I think it's chapter three, when God sees the children of Israel in bondage, they're in slavery. and and the the language that's used there is is is very specific and graphic of their being just ground.
Yeah.
steve tracy (39:42.103)
You know, it's it's metaphorical, but basically they're being crushed by abuse. And then we we read and it's a fourfold response. This tells us God's response to abuse when especially when we feel like he doesn't see, he doesn't care, where is he? this tells us, and it says God saw maybe I should even read it, because it's just so beautiful, and I actually weave
the a whole chapter of the book toward the end around this Exodus 3 7 God said I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt so God sees our our woundedness the things we've experienced that that are so destructive I have heard their cry
Because they're ta of their taskmasters. so he sees what's happened. He hears our cries as we cry out in our pain. I know their sufferings. And and the language here in Hebrew suggests not just cognition, but a heart response. God feels our pain. And I go so far and I make this argument in the book that God God suffers when we suffer.
Alison (40:58.581)
Mm, mm, mm.
steve tracy (41:10.348)
theologians have debated whether in fact God suffers emotionally, and the consensus historically has been that God's perfect so he can't suffer. I I absolutely reject that 'cause that's not what scripture says. Scripture says God is moved
Alison (41:23.146)
Hmm. Yeah.
steve tracy (41:28.76)
When his children suffer. And and moved in the sense that he feels our pain. He suffers with us. in Isaiah sixty three it says regarding the Israelites who were suffering because of their own sinful choices, in all their affliction he was afflicted.
That's a different view of God. When I, his child, ache, my heavenly father aches. So that's that's God's third response is he he he feels, he suffers with us. And then finally, I have come down to deliver them. You know, supremely we see that in Christ. You know, if we wonder, well, where's God when we suffer? And and of course in our work I'm I'm asked that frequently. you know, where was God when my
Grandfather was raping me, etc., etc. And I can't, no, no theologian can completely answer that question, but I know from Exodus 3 and many other texts that God has a plan for deliverance. And I see that first and foremost in Christ. He's not this detached up on Mount Olympus like the Greek gods, unmoved.
Alison (42:31.552)
Mm.
steve tracy (42:42.638)
mover. No, he came into this world and suffered with us and for us and he continues to. But he has a plan. He's working a plan. he comes down to deliver. So those four responses from Exodus three give me tremendous hope and confidence in a world of tremendous pain.
Alison (42:50.912)
Mm.
Mm.
Alison (42:56.808)
Mm.
Alison (43:02.718)
Yeah, that's beautiful. What what would you you and maybe that was kind of it, but just as we as we kind of wind down here, I'm curious, after all your wor years of walking with survivors, what would you most want someone listening who's survived abuse to know about God, scripture, and themselves?
steve tracy (43:26.734)
Boy, I gotta write another book on that one, Allison. just a couple things. one, you're not alone. There's so many of us. Well, I mean, all of us have experienced at least abuse small a. and a shockingly large percentage have experienced abuse capital A. Those things basically would constitute a crime.
And and you're not alone. There are countless others, both around you and in the pages of Scripture. We often don't come to Scripture with a lens for abuse because that's not what we're modeled and o often pastors don't aren't trained to give that. I wasn't. but it's there, you're not alone. Secondly, there is absolutely no evil you've suffered, no
Alison (44:01.129)
steve tracy (44:23.47)
You've experienced that is too great. That is too great for our loving Almighty God to heal, to redeem, to transform. I say that as someone who has spent 20 years working in war zones, working with
Alison (44:40.0)
Yeah.
steve tracy (44:42.958)
torture survivors, etc. etc. We lost one of our dear beloved staff members a couple of years ago to a terrorist attack. Like I this this is very personal for me. I mean things we've experienced, but w again, we work in the worst of the worst, and I have just seen God give new life, new hope, use horrible experiences.
That others have had and and I just shake my head saying, Wow, there is nothing that God can't. There is nothing He can't redeem and transform because I've I've seen it, I've witnessed it. Scripture testifies to that. Whatever our listeners have gone through, God wants to meet you in that place of pain. He's big enough.
Alison (45:19.336)
Yeah.
Alison (45:36.512)
Mm. That's beautiful. Tell my listeners a little bit more about mending the soul and what you guys do and what you offer. You've got some fantastic resources for folks. I'd love for for folks to know how to find you.
steve tracy (45:47.469)
Yeah.
Appreciate that. Our website is it's pretty simple. W.mending the soul dot org. lots of resources there. we're putting more and more in other languages, lots in Spanish and and this new book, by the way, Doctor Allison, Zondravin has given us permission to translate into Spanish. We're really excited about that. as well as the the
Alison (46:10.496)
Right.
steve tracy (46:14.136)
Book right before that, Mining the Soul, Understanding and Healing Abuse, second edition, is done in Spanish and Portuguese and French. and we make the other language translations available as download online. And there's a lot of free stuff. we have a healing workbook that Slusta did out of came out of her years of clinical practice, Mining the Soul workbook for men and women.
guidelines for facilitators to facilitate small healing groups. We really believe in the power of small groups. So just lots of resources. You know, some are a nominal fee and plenty are are free. our mission is to offer Christ-centered psychologically sound healing resources. I mean that that is what we do domestically and globally. We have a new, I think the first of its kind,
abuse healing workbook written f that's Christian, written by and for Native Americans. That was a collaborative project and we're super, super excited about that. It's really taking off. Yeah. So lots lots of resources you know on on the website. yeah.
Alison (47:15.849)
It's incredible.
Alison (47:25.568)
That's incredible. Well, it's great stuff. I can't, you know, just just think so highly of what you're doing and your years of expertise. And like you said, when you've been in the some of the there's a lot of conviction that comes when you've seen some of the worst atrocities and you see the power of God, you you really live out that love is stronger. You know, love is stronger. It doesn't always feel like it, but it is.
and I can just sense that coming out of you. You've seen it. You've seen some of the worst of the worst, but you also see the power of God is bigger and that's just a beautiful reminder for all of us today.
steve tracy (47:54.562)
Yeah.
steve tracy (48:03.83)
Yeah, I I appreciate that. O often one of the biggest hurdles in beginning a a healing process when we've got some deep wounds is the the thinking that if I open that closet, you know, if I face what's there in my past, I don't even know what skeletons are gonna come out. Yeah, and and it's gonna be a torrent, it's gonna be a tsunami that will engulf me. I I can't afford to even think about what happened to me. I can't handle it. And I I pr I understand and
Alison (48:17.056)
Mm.
Alison (48:21.726)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
steve tracy (48:33.744)
appreciate that. That that's not a a a ridiculous fear. and there's ways to negotiate that and sometimes that involves some professional help and some context, et cetera. But for those who might be feeling that, yeah, you're you're right, Alison, having
Alison (48:36.928)
Yeah.
steve tracy (48:52.838)
seen some of the absolute ninety percent of what we see and experience in Congo, I can't talk about here in the US. It wouldn't even be appropriate. I mean it's it's so extreme that there aren't words for it.
Alison (49:04.458)
Yeah.
steve tracy (49:05.698)
But it has you're right, it has given me a tremendous boldness and confidence. And that's not to say that healing is easy or I you know, I I've had to walk that road myself and deal with secondary trauma and nightmares and and all that. I I take it really seriously. But in the midst of that, when I say there is no evil, no suffering that's too great for God to heal
Alison (49:13.802)
Yeah.
Alison (49:19.52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alison (49:23.593)
Yeah.
steve tracy (49:31.842)
mean that to the absolute core of my being. Yeah.
Alison (49:33.876)
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible. Thank you. Thanks for your time today. It's the book is called To Heal or Harm. It's a powerful book. It's it's meaty, it's deep. There's it's practical, but there's also a lot that I think is really just interesting about how we approach scripture academically and it's just a really rich rich resource. So I highly recommend it and just appreciate you and all all your work.