How to Know Who You Can Trust in a Narcissistic Age: Charisma, Character & the Signs of Real Change with Dr. Chuck DeGroat
Episode Notes
How do you know you can trust someone?
In a world where charisma, confidence, and even vulnerability can be carefully performed, knowing who we can trust feels more important than ever.
In this powerful conversation, Dr. Alison sits down with longtime friend, therapist, and author Dr. Chuck DeGroat to explore what real character looks like, why genuine change is slower than we want it to be, and how to discern the difference between surface-level transformation and lasting integrity. Together, they unpack this incredibly important question of discerning when someone is trustworthy, as well as how to become people of character ourselves.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Why charisma and vulnerability don’t always signal trustworthy character.
* How to recognize manipulation disguised as emotional maturity or spiritual wisdom.
* What genuine character change looks like and how long it takes
* How to balance compassion for others with healthy boundaries and accountability.
About Dr. Chuck DeGroat:
Dr. Chuck DeGroat is a professor, licensed therapist, author, and ordained minister specializing in pastoral health, spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and emotional and spiritual well-being. He serves as Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality and Founding Executive Director of the Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program at Western Theological Seminary. He is also the founder of The Soul Care Collaborative and a faculty member at the Soul Care Institute. With decades of experience in pastoral ministry, leadership development, and trauma-informed care, Dr. DeGroat helps individuals and church leaders navigate emotional and spiritual challenges toward greater wholeness and flourishing.
More Resources:
Get Dr. Chuck DeGroat's inew book: Who You're Becoming: The Slow and Courageous Work of Cultivating Character in a Narcissistic Age
Find moreinformation about Dr. Chuck DeGroat here.
Get exclusive access to the first 2 chapters of Dr. Alison’s newest book, The Secure Soul.
Connect further with @dralisoncook on Instagram
📖 Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here.
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Transcript
Episode 231
Dr. Chuck DeGroat
What we're wrestling with today is who can we trust? I mean, I think that's the big question. There
is this appearance of vulnerability today that... a kind of shallow trust.
Vulnerability opens up space in relationships and, you know, vulnerability consumes, it devours
another, it manipulates another, right? And I think that's some of what we're seeing, right, in
this highly visible social media culture that we're in. It's not that power is wrong.
You have power, I have power. It's how we show up with that power. It's how we embody that power.
Does that power create space for people? Does it empower other? people?
Is it generous to others or does it consume others? We make these things so complicated,
right? Even our best psychology, our best theology, our best Bible knowledge can be used as ways to
hide. There's an invitation to a kind of simplicity. Perhaps with all of our too theological,
too psychological language, we've lost the plot line.
Hey everyone, I'm Dr. Allison and welcome back to this week's Deep Dive episode of The Best of You.
Today's guest is someone who is not only a colleague and an author whose work I deeply admire,
but he's also a friend in real life. So it's so fun to have a real life friend come on the podcast
and see where the conversation goes. I've known Dr. Chuck DeGro for about eight years now.
We first connected shortly after Boundaries for Your Soul came out. Chuck had been exploring
internal family systems and part works, and there was this immediate overlap between the kinds of
questions both of us were asking. We... Both are interested in questions like,
how do we understand what's happening psychologically inside of us while also taking seriously the
life of the soul, the life of spiritual formation? And how do therapy and spiritual formation speak
to each other? How does the soul form, not only in trauma and healing trauma,
but also just in the daily practices that we partake in? And over the years,
Chuck is just someone I've continued to learn from. as he doesn't shy away from naming really hard
things, really tough truths, while also holding alongside of that this vision,
this hope for what could be. And that brings us to our conversation today.
Many of you may know Chuck from his book called When Narcissism Comes to Church. That book has
helped so many people put language around something that can be incredibly confusing. especially in
faith spaces. And it kind of gets at what happens when charisma and giftedness and spiritual
authority or leadership ability coexist side by side with serious deficits of character and how
that can harm not only individuals, but also whole systems, whole communities of people.
And Chuck's work on that in When Narcissism Comes to Church has just been such a helpful resource
for so many people. We'll link to that book as well as his other book called Healing. What's
Within. He came on the podcast to talk about that book a couple of years ago. We'll link to those
in the show notes. But this week, he's on the podcast to talk about his brand new book. It's called
Who You're Becoming. The Slow and Courageous Work of Cultivating Character in a Narcissistic Age.
I mean, what a title. I think this is a book for all of us. And one of the things I've become
increasingly convinced of in my own work is that we need a clear picture of what to aim for when we
talk about things like character, when we talk about things like safety, right? Over the last few
years, we've learned some vocabulary and some language for what's toxic, for what's not healthy,
for what's a red flag, for what to watch out for. And all of that is important. And we have a lot
of episodes on the podcast. And we need to be able to name those hard things. But we also need to
have a vision for what we want to shoot for, what we hope to become, what God designed for us to
look like when we have. been engaging that work of cultivating character. And that's why I just
love this new book and this conversation with Chuck DeGroat. And Chuck is asking us a very simple
but also powerful question. He's asking us what kind of person Are you becoming?
And that's a very different question that often the world around us asks us. It's not about what
kind of achievements you've put into the world or how well your kids are doing even,
as much as that is in... or, you know, how long your quiet times are or how much head knowledge you
have about theology. Chuck's asking us to really look inside and ask ourselves,
are we becoming more loving? Are we becoming people who know joy? Are we becoming people who make
peace inside of ourselves and with others? Are we becoming people of patience, both with ourselves
and with those around us? Are we becoming more kind? Are we becoming more gentle with ourselves and
with others? Are we becoming the kind of people who resemble Christ?
In today's conversation, Chuck helps us tease out the difference between character,
like personality, which can make a big impression, but doesn't necessarily correlate with deep
character or something like charisma, which again can capture a room, but does not always correlate
with character or even communication skills, which can sound great, but does not always correlate
with character. And in Chuck's words, character is something we discover and build over time as we
learn to tend to the formation of our own lives. We also talk about how to discern character in our
leaders and people around us and to separate it out again from personality or charisma or
communication skills and notice the signs of character in someone's day-to-day lives.
And I think all of us can agree that this distinction is incredibly important right now,
politically and in our faith spaces and in our communities. We're looking desperately, I think,
for leaders with character and we want to learn how to detect those cues.
In today's conversation, we'll talk about how difficult it can be to feel like we can trust
leaders, people in positions of power and what we should be looking for to discern character,
not to judge, but to understand where our trust is actually been earned and can be placed.
And then we also move into another question that I know many of you have wrestled with. I know many
of you have written to me about this. Can people really And what are the signs of true character
change, especially when we're talking about longstanding patterns, maybe narcissistic patterns or
abuses of power, deeply entrenched, harmful ways of relating. Chuck has spent decades sitting with
people in these situations, both with people who have caused real harm and also with the people who
have been harmed. He brings a wealth of wisdom to the conversation. And just as a friend.
I know him to be someone who emanates these qualities in his own real life.
And this is not easy work, the work of building character. I know that to be true in my own life.
Chuck talks about it in the episode. He tells an incredible story toward the end about a
conversation he had with a pastor who experienced a very public moral failure and then spent years
doing quiet...
unseen work and how that changed Chuck and how he sees this work in an age.
that wants a quick fix, that wants people back in the public eye, and it is not always conducive to
this slow work of character. Dr. Chuck DeGroat is a licensed therapist, a spiritual director,
an author, and he's the professor of counseling and Christian spirituality at Western Theological
Seminary, where he also serves as the founding executive director of the Clinical Mental Health
Counseling. program. He's the founder of the Soul Care Collaborative and has spent decades working
at the intersection of psychology, spiritual formation, pastoral health, trauma, and abuse. He's
the author of several books, including When Narcissism Comes to Church, Healing What's Within, and
his newest book, Who You're Becoming, the slow and courageous work of cultivating character in a
narcissistic age. I am so grateful for Chuck, for his friendship, and for the wisdom and humility
he brings to this work. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Chuck.
Have we gotten worse at discerning and recognizing character?
Or is this something we've never been good at? And the reason I'm asking it that way is because you
argue in the book that... We've sort of elevated these charisma,
charm, credentials, kind of communication styles. You named that, and I was like,
that is such a big one. Someone can master the art of communication and not have character.
Why do you think... we're bad at this. Is it the sort of the, the,
the world around us working against us or is it something we've, we've always struggled with as
humans? Yeah. Yeah. Like even the seas that you just named, I mean, those are the kinds of things
that come up in pastoral searches nowadays and stuff like that. You know, that's what, that's what
churches are looking for. But yeah, the question is really good and it's, it's sort of complicated,
right? Because it has. I often say that this has evolved, and it's always evolving, and so that the
discernment gets a little more difficult as there are these new iterations of,
you know, I've written on narcissism before, where there are people who use the language of
spiritual practices and spiritual formation and Enneagram.
and health and vagus nerve exercises and all the things that you and I talk about,
you know, who are performative even in the way they show up,
right? Yes. Who, you know, who lack the kind of character that...
like to see in everyone from pastors to therapists to coaches to plumbers to you know the whole
thing but i don't think this is necessarily new though either although it's evolved and shifted uh
we were just talking about soul care the christian soul character i'm a bit of a student of history
right and this was a conversation that i've been reading a book this summer that goes back to the
sixth century when pope gregory the great was calling leaders and pastors to character in a time
when they were being pulled into power and when Christendom was sort of taking off and growing.
And so this has been like around, let's just go all the way back to Genesis 3. It's been around for
a long time. It just takes on different forms and different seasons. Yeah,
that's a good point. The serpent was masquerading as someone with character.
And she was deceived. Yeah. But even, yeah, yeah. That makes sense.
What, in your, before we go too deep, how do you define character?
What should we be looking for as character? Yeah,
yeah. Well, so I mean, I think let's just start there. What should we be looking for? And this
really simplifies it for me because this is where the whole conversation crystallized for me a few
years ago when I was thinking about what do I want to write on and what might even be a good...
People were asking about the narcissism book and how people change and what would I say today. And
what sort of crystallized was...
You know, you and I probably got into this years ago. I know for me, it was the late 1990s when I
trained to be a therapist and a pastor. So it's been quite a while. And back then, I hoped that,
I mean, I was a pastor of spiritual formation. I was a counseling center founder. I hoped that
people would become more vulnerable, more self-aware, engage spiritual practices, more regular,
like all the things. Know their Enneagram type. And here we are now and people know these things
and we've got all sorts of resources. And I think the question that sort of crystallized for me a
few years ago was, are we becoming more loving, joyful, peaceful,
patient, kind, faithful, gentle? And that's where there,
even in my body, I felt that there was a sense of like, oh, no. And so for me,
that's character is shaped around love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, familiar fruits of the
spirit to many. I call it the hidden architecture of one's life because it takes a while to know
character, right? Personality pops. But character is known. I mean, I've got some colleagues at the
seminary I've been around for years. I've got people in my life who I've known for decades. I know
something of their character because I've seen them over the course of years. And I know them to be
loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, even though they have really bad days sometimes.
Yes. They annoy the heck out of me sometimes, right? Yes. I think that is so profound what you just
said. And it makes me wonder if some of the... the online world has exacerbated the modern,
because how can I really know the character of someone I've never met? Right. I've only seen an
avatar of them. Can I really know the character? I mean, a little bit,
I guess. Yeah, a little bit, right? And I mean, you and I have known each other online for years
now and been in a group. And I think there's something about relationship and that space. But I do
think that There's something about maybe the false intimacy that comes with quick social media
connection and contact. A lot of us have experienced this and have experienced both the ecstasy of
like, oh, I have a new friend and having the bottom fall out in that because we disagree
politically or because...
Because we just live different lives. And so there's something of an artificiality to that,
a shallowness, to the fragility of that perhaps, right, that isn't seen in our closest
relationships. Yeah. And even in our real life, it's interesting what you said about that with your
colleagues, that those patterns, because I could imagine even, you know.
Even if I go, let's say, I don't want to pick on churches, but let's say I go to a large church and
someone is amazing from the pulpit, but I'm not really necessarily in day-to-day life bumping up
against those situations that reveal character. So even in our embodied life,
you know, it's so interesting coming, I grew up in such a small insulated town. Yeah.
My husband and I were just talking about how you can't really hide the way that we could,
in a sense, when I was living in Boston, and we still do some, but you cannot bump up against
people in a suburb. You know, in the way that,
like you're saying, in your smaller community on a campus or where those patterns,
day in and day out, create those moments, not for perfection, but for revealing how character
spills out. Right. And that's where, I mean, you and I both talk a lot about vulnerability and
that's part of the conversation in this book, vulnerability versus vulnerability. But,
you know, the kind of vulnerability that. cultivates character and depth in relationships,
a real knowing and being known, right? I don't think that we're capable of lots of vulnerable
relationships. In fact, people often say when I do these kinds of things, you're so vulnerable. And
I'll say I'm open, but vulnerability is reserved for just a few people in my life.
You know, vulnerability, there's some immediacy to vulnerability. Like in the moment, I can share
what's really going on. What I share here and in other places, I process probably,
right? But there is this appearance of vulnerability today that breeds a kind of shallow trust.
Oh, he talks so earnestly about his Enneagram type and about all the ways that he's hurt people in
his life, and he must be trustworthy. And I think that there's a sense that...
Let's not move too quickly there, you know. But there's something of that that I'm hearing a lot.
I'm sure you're hearing these stories, too. Lots of stories of people who are like, oh, I trusted
him because from the platform he shared so earnestly or so vulnerably over social media in his
book. But what we're wrestling with today is who can we trust?
I mean, I think that's the big question.
And that does not, just because somebody shares a deep, dark secret, does not make them
trustworthy.
Yes. And in fact, is that what you mean? Tell me, I know you've used this word a lot,
but it's such a great word. What do you mean by faux-nerability? I'm hearing in that as sort of
almost manipulative. I'm going to use vulnerability to get trust. Yeah, that's right.
I think that's right. I mean, it's the pretense of vulnerability, right? But it's manipulative.
It's ultimately deceptive. It uses others. I think vulnerability opens up space in relationships.
And, you know, vulnerability consumes. It devours another. It manipulates another,
right? And so... And I think that's some of what we're seeing right in this highly visible social
media culture that we're in. Just to kind of underscore, I think some of the words that you talk
about in the book of looking for character over time are truth telling, humility to admit fault,
consistency over time. And I thought this, I think this one's important. The ability to hold power
without using it to harm. Yeah. So power in and of itself isn't necessarily the issue with
character. Yeah. It's how do I hold power without doing harm? It's not that power is wrong.
You have power. I have power. I've been in various leadership positions over the years. It's how we
show up with that power. It's how we embody that power. Does that power, as I was talking about
with vulnerability, does that power create space for people? Does it empower other people?
Is it generous to others or does it consume others? Does it demand loyalty?
Does it enforce boundaries in ways that exclude? Like there are all sorts of ways that we can sort
of name the good and the bad of power, right? But I think that that's what we're looking for over
time. Will I misuse power at times? Of course I will, right? Will I not tell the truth to go back
through that list, right? Are there times where I'm going to show up not as humble as I'd like to
show up? Yes, but those... are the exceptions and I hope the people in my life would know that and
say, you know, what was going on yesterday? I'd like to talk about that with you. That's why I love
the humility to admit fault. I missed this one. I didn't get this right. Kind of, it kind of gets
out the, the ability to repair after something has happened,
which can mean more than the fact that there was even a rupture to begin with. If someone's willing
to genuinely own. And I'd love to kind of dig into this because you've said a couple of times that,
and I literally heard someone tell me this the other day, saying that this person who is
mistreating her uses a lot of therapy language, uses a lot of,
well, in a way that is being used to harm.
Yeah. And I guess I'm... to dig into a little bit for the listener.
Yeah. What? And what's happening? Let's say there's a disagreement and someone comes to you or
someone comes to me and says, Hey, I, I, the way you're doing this is landing this way on me or,
or, or, um, this is hurting me. And,
and, and. I guess in our modern era, the other person may not just be saying,
you're stupid. They know better. They might be saying, well, you're too sensitive.
Or they might use therapeutic language to essentially gaslight us.
Because that can be confusing, right? And also people use spiritual language, right? Biblical,
theological language, all the language, right? Yeah, yeah.
For the listener, if that's happening, sometimes I think it's helpful to hear, what are the healthy
responses in those moments? What is someone with character? Because,
again, I can imagine someone coming to me and I'm getting caught off guard and I have to think
about it and I'm not sure, but I also want to honor, oh, something happened here, right?
So what are, again, what are healthy ways to meet that moment?
Yeah. versus kind of trying to minimize, deflect,
spin. Yeah.
Well, I mean, health, I always go back to humility and curiosity,
right? I mean, and that may mean in a moment like that. that there's not a demand that you,
you know, you embrace my therapeutic language or my theological language or my spiritual language
or however I'm framing it, right? And I do think nowadays what you're naming is some of what
probably you and I are both hearing that as people, I mean, therapy this is this is the language uh
this is the lingua lingua franca now right this is the kind of language people are using and there
have been some i don't love the critiques of therapy that are coming out uh recently at least the
way they've been articulating things but i think you and i would probably be critical of aspects of
therapy culture and the way we use certain words and the way we some people box others in or try to
diagnose you're so codependent you're so narcissistic you're so toxic you're so sensitive you're so
and i i think here again our language um is our language diminishing another trying to box in
another uh uh trying to um um uh trying to uh diagnose another or is it invitational right and so i
think humility shows up as more open, as more spacious, as more inviting, as more generous.
I don't need to demand my language. I'm not here to diagnose you. I mean, this is the,
for me as a therapist, I'm sure for you too, in the room as well, I have to adjust my language
sometimes, you know, but I want to find my way in and whatever way feels good and right and safe to
you. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't, I'm thinking a lot of that is the need.
And it does relate to your work on narcissism. A lot of that is all this need. I need to be right.
I need to support my own illusion of whatever it is versus that humility of. I'm not sure.
Thank you for, I want to think about this. I'm interested in your curiosity. I'm interested in your
perspective. Maybe we, I may not see it the same way, but that doesn't mean that what you're saying
doesn't have value, right? There's so many ways. And I guess I just think we don't often hear that.
I just had the experience where someone didn't send me a link for an interview and I was kind of
waiting for it. He sent me one line. I said, oh, I made a mistake. I'm so sorry. You know, it was
like, wow. you know just that's not hard yeah but we don't hear a lot of just i made a mistake or
you know i need i need i need to take this in and think about it for a bit or even if at the end of
the day there is a little bit of a i'm not sure i see it the same way you see it but i still
respect you as a human yeah Yeah. I mean, it's it's we make these things so complicated,
right? Yeah. Even our best psychology, our best theology, our best Bible knowledge can be used as
ways to hide. Right. And so this is where there is there is this there's an invitation to a kind of
simplicity here in the book there, you know, to love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness, like. Why did we make it so complicated? Why, you know, I think even it became
complicated for me, you know, as a therapist. And as I was trying to define what it means for
someone to be whole or healthy, I caught myself at one point in a seminar that I was doing. And
they were like, well, define wholeness. And I'd written a book called Wholeheartedness back in like
2016. And I found myself stumbling over my words to come up with something really deeply
psychological and informed.
And I think I was just exhausted with myself after hearing myself out loud, like talk out loud.
And so there's there's kind of a return to, you know, this is these are the basics here.
And it's that doesn't mean that we become loving and joyful and peaceful and patient people
overnight. It's not easy. There's I get into how that journey is shaped over time.
Right. But it does mean that perhaps with all of our. too theological,
too psychological language, we've lost the plot line, so to speak.
Yeah, I love that. Talk to us a little bit about that journey and how you've seen it in your own
life, in the lives of people you've helped, because you've also walked alongside folks as they've
had quote-unquote character, issues that have hurt people or how do you see change take shape?
Well, that's an easy question, Allison. Right?
Solve it all for us. Yeah, so we could probably spend time on both.
There are those of us who are living our lives who just want to grow up.
just want to be more mature people. Like I just want to, I turned 56 this year and I'm still like,
what am I going to grow up? But there's a sense in which, you know,
as you and I know in the work that we do. The very first book that I wrote was on the Exodus story.
I often say it's a journey that should have taken 11 days. It takes 40 years. It's a long and
winding journey. Three steps forward, two steps back.
Walter Brueggemann wrote a wonderful book on the Psalms years ago where he talked about Psalms of
orientation and disorientation and reorientation, that every journey necessarily needs to go
through a journey of disorientation. And that's hard and that's challenging. We walk people through
those kinds of difficulties in their lives, and I want to normalize that for people.
There's not an up and to the right, straight line to the top journey of sanctification that you'd
pitch or I'd pitch that would be worth anything. It's going to be challenging.
For most of us listening, we need to recognize, we need to normalize challenge,
difficulty, suffering. And for too many people that I work with,
and I'm sure it's the case for you too, they've gone to churches where disorientation hasn't been
normalized. It's a kind of shine Jesus, shine spirituality where there's not much room for sadness,
disappointment, mortality, pain, longing. All the things,
right? And so there's that first piece. The second piece is more complicated, and we can talk about
that if you want to, but that's where we get into the larger conversation about, well,
my previous work on narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder, which, by the way, is a
little bit different than what we mean when we talk about garden variety, narcissism, and where
there are some pretty fixed behavioral and relational patterns that...
challenging to sort of get unstuck. That's like the 201 or 301 version of the book where people
have to sort of dig in a little bit more deeply and where the stewardship of one's journey to
health and to wholeness is a little bit more complex, actually. So here's a question for you on
that second piece.
What incentivizes someone who has those more embedded patterns?
Right. And I like how you're distinguishing. Maybe they're not like full on narcissistic
personality disorder, but there's narcissistic patterns. There's patterns that maybe have worked to
gain a voice or work to gain a platform or worked on some level, but are now hurting people.
What have you seen in your experience will incentivize someone to do the hard work to change those
patterns? Because you also talk in the book about how there are a lot of quick fixes that people
are more than willing to do that don't actually change those patterns. What I'd like to say is what
incentivizes someone is a sense of integrity. And I've seen that. There are folks who I've seen
over the years. You know, I do these five-day intensives, five days, three hours a day. And I've
had quite a number of spiritual leaders, pastors, therapists come to me and say,
I want to be a person of integrity. And I think that's beautiful.
I've seen... I just spent some time with a 32-year-old pastor who said, no moral failure,
no big things have happened, but I don't want to be that person that shows up.
And maybe there's a little fear mixed into, you know, I've read the Roy's report and I've seen all
these stories of these pastors that are being called out. I don't want to be that. So I think
there's that. And then I think there are those. who are seeing what's happening nowadays.
And there's sort of this middle group of people who,
when they come to see me by day three in our five days together, they will confess to me some sort
of something that's going on in their lives that hasn't become a massive moral failure, but some
significant contradictions. I'm drinking a heck of a lot every evening. And then I wake up.
the next day and I drink a whole lot of caffeine and take a lot of ibuprofen and, and, uh, or I'm
overeating or I'm looking at pornography or I'm, uh, whatever it might be, you know, there are
those who are like, I'm sort of on the verge and I'm not sure, but something,
the walls are beginning to crack. And the, the incentive there is like before,
before they crack and come crashing down on me and everyone I love, I want to do something about
this. And then there are those who's. walls have cracked and they've come crashing down and they
are sent to me or they come to me because their diocese or their church,
their denomination, their presbytery, whatever it might be, sends them and says, it's all come
crashing down and this person needs to be rebuilt. And sometimes, honestly, those are the folks
that... most incentive to do the work. It's like there's no more shame at that point.
Like there's nothing more to hide. It's all out. And it's a really kind of a beautiful place.
I was just talking to someone like this the other day who got found out just a few weeks ago and
like it all came out. And he was sitting with me in tears and he was like, I literally have nothing
left to hide. Like I spent a decade hiding all these things. There's nothing left to hide.
now what do I do? What's, you know, what's the work? And so, you know, but for a lot of us,
we, we believe our own illusions and lies. And I know I have for years,
you know, I like to think that I'm healthier than I am. And I hope that I've not had any kind of
massive moral failure or anything like that, but because of people in my life and you and I share
some good friends and, you know, some hard conversations that have happened over the years that
I'm. hopefully have the integrity to be able to ask myself, where do I need to look?
I love that third category you just described to me.
It's such a picture of, it's like there's the mercy of rock bottom, the mercy of everything.
And it feels like Jesus' heart is so close to that.
And that maybe the most dangerous spot is when things are working well and there's something you're
hiding or there's something that's not being addressed, whether you've hid it from yourself or
whether you've been able to hide it from others. Maybe that's the most dangerous place because the
incentive, it's quote unquote working. Yeah, it's working and it's probably worked for a long time,
right? Yeah. I don't think. I suspect we're similar on this. Like, I don't think you and I tend to
come down super hard on those people. I mean, obviously, there's got to be accountability where
there's been harm. But because usually the way they've been living has worked for them for a long
time. I mean, a long, long time and goes back many, many years and probably goes back to childhood.
When I do work with men who are narcissistic or diagnosably narcissistic.
personality disorder where there's been harm done, there is usually a painful,
painful story of trauma, abuse and some sort of subconscious. you know,
sense of like, I will never be there again. I will never be on the bottom. I will never be harmed.
I will be always be the one on top. I will always be the aggressor, you know, and it's not like
they woke up at six years old or eight years old deciding that. But what you realize is that, oh
yeah, you've lived like this. You didn't even realize this is the only mask that you've known.
We call it egocentronic in psychology, right? This is the only face, you know,
this is who I think I am. And so I have some compassion.
I mean, I know folks, there are folks out there, he knows exactly what he's doing. And there are
folks who are just that sinister, right? But there are very many who really don't,
I think they think they're doing the right thing. They think they're being godly and they're
bearing fruit in the world. And it doesn't mean they're not responsible. That's right.
Yeah, it is that that there isn't that conscious, you know, that point at which we become
consciously aware of a thing. That's that's the holy ground of I mean,
when I'm lost in it, it's one thing and you want to put boundaries with someone like that. You got
to be careful because they're not going to see it. And I'm wondering about that. I'm thinking of
the listener who's thinking of a spouse or a child or someone who maybe is starting to have that.
conscious self-awareness that you know maybe i can't rationalize this maybe i i haven't been
wanting to look at this and there's a long tail let's say it's a spouse of stuff all the way back
you know realistically and i get this question all the time like yeah what is,
what are, what can my expectations be of change? Yeah. Right. How long, what, cause that person,
like you said, isn't going to change overnight. There's going to be the two steps forward, one step
back. There's going to be the, I'm going to change this. And then the, it's fine. You know, I mean,
it, that's, and I hear so often from people, well, how long do I stay in this?
How, how, especially if we're talking about marriage or, or, you know, um,
a primary relationship, you know, What meaningful steps can I look for that suggests that there is
some hope here? Because again, to your point, I've seen so many people go through this where they
uncover some of the worst of the worst. And man, they stay in it and they'll stay in a past when
other people think they should. And it'll go one of two ways. Either it'll go, I shouldn't have
stayed in it or it'll go, oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lo and behold. They did it.
And you see both. So I'm always kind of back here going, how do you talk to people about that that
are in a situation like that? I mean, this is challenging, right? So since the late 90s,
I've sat with women who have been in abusive relationships. I've gone to court, testified for them,
talked about emotional abuse back when there were hardly books defining emotional abuse.
And women who've experienced a psychological warfare, the death by a thousand cuts, but there are
no bruises, right? And the transformation that we're talking about is actually pretty rare.
in those circumstances. And so that's challenging. I mean, I don't want to be hopeless.
I don't want to be cynical, and I'm not. I wouldn't write a book called Who You're Becoming if I
was, right? I work with people who engage real change, but oftentimes what you get is the person
who just wants to appease the spouse who's been harmed, right? And so I'll go to counseling,
but we're just spinning our wheels, right? Every now and then what you're getting at is the person
who has this moment of conscience, you know, has something awakens and it's like, I don't want to
be that person. But that's like a razor's edge. Like that's so, will they continue to do the work?
Because there are a thousand reasons not to do it, not least their own lifelong survival patterns,
right? And so there's got to be some real I mean, I jump when I see that because I want to I like I
want to dig in and I was OK, let's let's start doing something here. But even then,
we've got to be really realistic about the kinds of changes. And so I really prioritize the safety
of spouses, mostly women in situations like this. And then.
Once we've considered, what does safety look like for you? What do you need? Then,
okay, let's think about doing the work. Because that work, particularly for people who harm,
and where that's been a pattern over years, that kind of has become what I call characterological,
to use psychological language. I mean, that's not... to go away in six months to a year,
right? Those are patterns that need to change over years. And so again, this is not about being
hopeless, but this is a long journey. I've worked with people who've,
I've worked with women who've, they've gone through a divorce and they've gotten remarried to
spouses later, right? So I've seen, you've seen stories of transformation, but the work takes a
long time. This is why when I, when I work with abusive spouses, when I work with ministry leaders
who are narcissistic and abusive, I'm talking about the work in terms of years and oftentimes like
five to 10 years versus months.
That's a healthy. From someone who's been in the trenches, I think that's a healthy reality check.
And therefore, you have to know your own self. Can I put the supports that I need?
And if I'm going to wait, don't be naive. Yeah, it's and don't be you talk in the book about people
sincerely apologizing. And right back to the old ways,
quick sabbaticals, quick. Shot of therapy. I'm all fixed now. And not,
I think that it's not that you're being pessimistic. There's a real realistic portrait you paint in
the book of real change has to be real. Yeah. And I think you tell the pastor,
you tell a story about a pastor where it was like a 10 year journey. Could you share that?
I mean, there are hopeful stories. There really are. I had some students last year at the end of a
class say, can you please tell us some hopeful stories, Jeff? Like, you've got all of the terrible
ones. Yeah, I mean, real briefly, moral failure,
it blew up his marriage, but I mean, he was a pastor, so it, I mean... The debris field is
significant, right? And the betrayal of trust. We're talking about someone who's made covenant with
a church and been ordained and all the things. And so significant accountability and care for the
spouse. I mean, all of it was pretty well done in the beginning. And I was sort of guiding some of
that work. And I had said, I think this is like a decade's worth of work. And I don't want you in
ministry for a long, long time. And so he stepped fully out of ministry and started doing his work,
and they were separated for probably two or three years. And then I was offering some guidance,
but I had gotten them connected with local therapists, and then I lost track. And I'd heard things
here or there, like, yeah, they're back together. And, you know, we can be a little cynical at
times. Part of me was like, oh, yeah, they're back together, and it's all going to be fine, right?
Sure. And years later, I ran into him on a city street. I won't tell you what city, but like he was
talking about a church that he was applying to. And and so there was a little part of me that's
like, oh, yeah, you're applying to be a pastor. OK, tell me about that. And he said, no, no, no,
no. It's more of a I'm going to be sort of a maintenance worker at the church. There's there's a
blanking on the term, the Episcopal Church. What is it, a sexton or something like that? Or what is
it? Yeah.
And I'm just, I'm going to clean toilets. And that's my entry point back in.
And then down the road, if my wife and I discern that there might be something else I could step
into. So it was this very slow journey. And he was just oozing with integrity. And, you know,
when you sit with someone, speak to someone who's just so earnest and sincere,
that's what I experienced that day. Like his face looked different. I sat with people whose faces
are sort of hardened and they're hiding and they're, you know, manipulating. And this was just his
face was soft. His eyes were tender. Like there were tears. There was some sense of this is what
I'm being called into. This is my way back into the church. And so there are stories like that that
are really beautiful. But I think you and I probably have been doing this long enough to now we're
measuring it now. Like I'm getting to the 30 year point. Right. So I'm starting to be able to. tell
the stories of a decade later, two decades later, you know, and those are really beautiful stories,
but they take a long, long time. I love that story. Thank you for sharing it.
It reminds me of the scripture where it says, you know, you, you gain the world, but you lose your
soul. Like, but the reverse is also true. Like that's such a gospel story.
I will become the least of these quote unquote. And actually that's the most character filled.
Yeah. You know, Jesus sees it so upside down, but the cost for so many people,
and I think, again, you're not being cynical, but you're being realistic in the book. The cost of,
I'm going to give it all up and maybe get into a whole different, you know, a lot of it you hear,
when can I get back? How soon can I get back into ministry? How soon will you forgive me? That's
always the question. How soon will you take me back? How long will this take? Yep. Yeah. Or what
will it cost me? And it's quick. And by the way, I think in the therapeutic world,
with the self-help gospel, with some of the things that we put out there,
we give the impression at times. that it's going to be quick. That if you come and see Chuck or
Allison, I think even with these five-day intensives, there's a sense that the language that a lot
of us have on our websites is a language of transformation. And we long for that, but there's no
promise. And when I talk to people, I sit down with them. I'm like, this is the very beginning.
This may just be the moment where you... you take the mask off and you start to look at it for the
very first time. And it's like, I was wearing a mask or that, you know, we like to use parts
language. I, for the very first time, I named that part of me that's been in the driver's seat for
the last 20 years. That may be it. And, and from there, we'll chart a course for the next.
Five years. But we're not talking about we'll chart a course for the end of your four week
sabbatical and then start a podcast. Get back in the pulpit or whatever it might be. Jump back in
the marriage. I'm a great husband now. I'm a great husband now. Or wife. You should move back in
with him. No. We're going to take it really, really slow. And we're not going to measure it by you
said some nice words or you had tears. We're going to measure it by.
I was going to say weeks, but really months and months and months of consistency. Because what
you'll see is... a month of consistency and then the the slippage you know and you and i have seen
this a thousand times where it's it's like yeah he was he was doing so well he brought me flowers
he was showing up he called me a few times he sent some nice texts and then and then i got the
anger and then he didn't show up and then you know and then the business trip was more important
and okay so the character is measured in you know that consistency over time,
not just in nice words. It's so good, Chuck. I think you've really found such a sweet spot with
this book of what it is. There's always compassion, right?
And the reality of what it takes to change. when there's been these,
these cemented patterns, it reminds me, we're kind of ending where we started, which is that's when
you see it. People will say they give their public apology and then they say, I'm going, I'm going
to a therapist. And I always think, so what, so what? Like, so that's your magic. Get out of, you
know, you're going to a therapist. That's your, that's your quick fix for like, what are you doing
with that? And the therapist can't fix you. You have, there's a long, and I really love that you're
just setting that. And I, and I think for the listener, you know, I will sometimes say to women, If
they're trying to figure out, you know, it's sort of like just understand this is a, you know, if
we think about marriage as a covenant, as a contract, this is a different contract in a sense.
Maybe you're not ready to leave, but you need to understand that this interim period is, you're
going to have to support yourself in a different way. You're going to have to let this marriage,
I think it's Esther Perel who talks about every marriage has seven different.
actual relationships within it right like this is a different type of relationship as you discern
trust and that's okay that's a whole nother conversation but but the point being don't don't set
yourself up for that they changed they uh back to normal they changed like no and that'll actually
help you In the long term to recognize what you're getting into. And again, that's not hopeless.
That's realistic. And that's actually helpful. And I think that's that's such a sweet spot that
you're hitting with this book that is so important for all of us. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah.
Just just to close, I guess, Chuck, what is for you? You know,
you've done this for a while. You've sat with a lot of people. What is your hope?
What is your hope for people? Who read this book. What do you want them to leave with?
Yeah.
I hope they catch a little bit of a vision of a life of love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness. I hope that, you know, if there's a lot.
You can do a deep dive with this book. And I think it's a book and a workbook in one. So you can go
about as deep as you want to go. And I think that there are some conversations in there. Like
there's some places where you can really, I've told some folks already, you can spend some
significant time there. But I think for most,
if they close the book and there's some sense of...
I want to go on this journey and I want to be, I want to, I want to invite others into this journey
of becoming more loving, more joyful.
as long as it takes. And I want those to be honest conversations. If it invites people into that
kind of vision of being with one another and calling one another to more, I'll be happy.
I think I have bigger hopes because there's a larger conversation at stake around a massive
reckoning moment that I think we're in in the church.
There are things that I want to see. the church, small C and big C take really,
really seriously. But I think for most of us, it's so complicated sometimes.
And with psychology books in particular, it's like, oh, do I have to learn all this new language to
figure out who God is calling me to be? I hope it simplifies some things for them.
Well, I just want to say, I think... I love what you just said.
And I think if you're someone who, I think the book serves two purposes. One, if you're someone who
is like, and Chuck, you're one of my favorite thinkers and writers and humans in this space.
I'm aware, if you're someone, I'm aware that I'm part of this, the soup that we're being cooked in
culturally. And I want to work on my own character. Fantastic book. That's how I approached it.
I loved it. And I also think it's helpful for folks who are trying to navigate, how do I trust
someone again after being betrayed? There's a lot of really good tips there. So it's a fantastic
book. I'm so grateful for the work that you do. I know there's a cost to it to put so much into the
world, but we're grateful for you. Yeah, grateful for you too. And thanks for a good conversation
as always. Thanks, Chuck. Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of The Best of You.
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